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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-06-03

---Logopened Sun Jun 03 00:00:02 2012
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00:28<Dr_Tan>what is "Road vehicle queuing with quantum effects"?
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01:48<chlorine>Hey I observe some weird behaviour for my trains, I wonder if anybody could have any clue on what's happening?
01:48<chlorine>Basically some of them go out of their way to go to stations they're not supposed to go to.
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02:26<Nat_aS>check the path
02:27<Nat_aS>trains will sometimes go directions just because they can
02:27<Nat_aS>usualy this is because they can't go where they are suposed to go
02:28<chlorine>Like if they're waiting for a free path?
02:29<Nat_aS>or sometimes even there is no free path because one of your signals is backwards
02:29<Nat_aS>both are possible
02:29<chlorine>No, the path is correct because most of the time the trains travel the line without problem.
02:29<chlorine>And they always get to their destination.
02:29<chlorine>But large portions of my line are a 2-way single track, so that might be the problem.
02:30<chlorine>I'll improve that and see if it improves things. :)
02:30<Nat_aS>yeah, trains often decide to try a diffrent route when waiting would be better
02:30<Nat_aS>they don't like stoping if they can help it
02:31<Nat_aS>so they sometimes will loop around if it's an option, even if it's a bad idea for your network
02:31<chlorine>OK, thanks! :)
02:31<chlorine>I hate to think of the time I'll need to upgrade the whole line to 2 tracks though :/
02:32<chlorine>I gotta run, bye.
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03:30-!-mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ
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03:41<andythenorth>ho Alberth
03:41<@Alberth>hi hi
03:41<@Alberth>bandits are running again? :)
03:47<V453000>get them back to prison?
03:50<andythenorth>bandit works for me, dunno about the compile farm (offline)
03:51<andythenorth>ho, actually bundles server has bandit from yesterday
03:51<andythenorth>appears it worked
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04:40<andythenorth>would farms be better with roadtypes?
04:40<andythenorth>less infrastructure
04:41*andythenorth ponders an insane scheme where loading vehicles can be told to leave a station to make room for an incoming vehicle dropping off
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04:47<@planetmaker>ho, what did you change to make it work?
04:47<@Alberth>maybe I am missing something, but why is a single road not enough?
04:48<andythenorth>planetmaker: I fixed the stupid error I committed
04:48<andythenorth>which I wouldn't have noticed locally until I did a manual clean of generated files
04:48<@planetmaker>:-) I'm happy that it works again
04:48<andythenorth>moi aussi
04:49<@Alberth>planetmaker: :D
04:49<andythenorth>Alberth: with road vehicles at farms, I need a 2-4 tile station for pickup cargo 1, 2-4 tile station for pickup cargo 2, 1 tile station drop off FMSP
04:49<andythenorth>and also loops for queing
04:49<andythenorth>and depots
04:49<andythenorth>because RVs are stupid about routing to depots
04:50<@Alberth>woow, that much?! :o
04:50<@planetmaker>oh, lol, Alberth :-)
04:50<andythenorth>worse with trams, because trams are bigger
04:50<V453000>RVs are indeed ridiculously dumb about routing to depots - espcecially as you dont have any means to make them do it right as signals with trains
04:51<andythenorth>I have to build a lot of depots, and/or use force-to-depot orders
04:51<@planetmaker>you can use "waypoints" aka drive-through road stops
04:51<V453000>well I guess it is rather the lack of various tracks than signals
04:51<V453000>well sure, waypoints ... but if you set autoreplace they dont really care :D
04:52<V453000>"well that is a nice waypoint but you know what? I have autoreplace, I will screw up with the worst depot I could find" is their logic I think
04:52<V453000>or something close to that ^^
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04:56<andythenorth>^ these are relatively low production farms
04:57<andythenorth>there is 946t of sugar beet waiting at one of them :P
04:57<andythenorth>I can't be bothered to build more trucks to take it away
04:57<@Alberth>what if you make a loop, so trucks can use it from both sides?
05:00<andythenorth>bigger trucks?
05:00<andythenorth>these are only 15t
05:01<FLHerne>Massive trains? :P
05:07<andythenorth>covering the map in rail track?
05:07*andythenorth forgot; openttd is a train game
05:07<andythenorth>perhaps I should rm -r bandit/*
05:08<andythenorth>saving everyone a lot of trouble
05:08<andythenorth>these farms are both ugly and tedious
05:08<@Alberth>they're a challenge :p
05:08<FLHerne>No, they aren't :-)
05:08<FLHerne>They're brilliant fun :D
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05:08<andythenorth>low production doesn't work; high production means 'click 1 billion times to clone yet-another-truck'
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05:09<@Alberth>trucks just scale badly
05:10<FLHerne>What's wrong with low-production, deliver supplies for a bit to get slightly-higher-production?
05:10<FLHerne>i.e. how it is :P
05:10<andythenorth>if production is low, it's not worth the cost of building the route
05:10<andythenorth>and the secondary processor produces ~zero cargo
05:11<telanus>sorry for noob question
05:11<telanus>But why is suddenly so big. Last time I downloaded it ( a bit more than a month ago) it was hardly a meg, now 38 meg ?
05:11<FLHerne>They added 32-bit trains, didn't they?
05:11<Zuu_>I started on a GS that would clone vehicles for you and sell them as well if production goes down. However, I got the idication that this kind of script was not welcome by the devs. So if released, the API functions used to clone/sell might be closed down in 1.3.
05:12<andythenorth>I think my goals here are fundamentally incompatible
05:12<Zuu_>Thus, it was never completed nor released.
05:12<andythenorth>- moderate or high production, to get enough cargo out
05:12<andythenorth>- desire to have minimal infrastructure at farms
05:12<andythenorth>these are in conflict, and it's not an interesting conflict
05:13<FLHerne>andythenorth: Serving lots of low-production farms:
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05:14<FLHerne>That's ten, with another couple off the edge. Works ok :-)
05:14<andythenorth>are those all feeding one processor?
05:14<@Terkhen>good morning
05:14<andythenorth>lo Terkhen
05:15<FLHerne>They all go to the rail station in the middle, then by train to the far side of the map :P
05:15<andythenorth>so you get pretty high production out at the other end
05:15<FLHerne>I've got a few clusters like that...
05:15<andythenorth>so I play 256x256 maps
05:15<andythenorth>I get 2 grain farms maybe
05:15<andythenorth>maybe 1 sheep farm
05:15<andythenorth>2 dairy farms
05:15<FLHerne>Mine are 512x512 or 512x1024 mostly
05:16<FLHerne>Make farms more common on smaller maps? :-)
05:16<andythenorth>this is one possibility yes
05:16<andythenorth>we now have a cb for construction probability
05:16<FLHerne>Can Newgrfs detect map size?
05:17<FLHerne>Oh, ok. Would be possible then :-)
05:17<andythenorth>the electrified tramways running all over the countryside don't bother you?
05:18<__ln__>in continental europe it's normal to have electricity in the countryside
05:18<telanus>here tooo
05:18<FLHerne>I'd rather have unelectrified ones
05:18<FLHerne>No roadtypes yet, though :-(
05:19<andythenorth>how are you delivering FMSP?
05:20<FLHerne>More trams! :P
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05:20<FLHerne>Those little ones you added...
05:21<FLHerne>The Plant Fibre trains come back with FMSP (Autorefit) and then the trams distribute them
05:21<andythenorth>I only see one station at most farms
05:22<andythenorth>how do you get the FMSP delivered?
05:22<andythenorth>without being blocked by loading trams?
05:23<Zuu>If the trams are point to point, they could use autorefit to deliver farm supplies on the way back.
05:23<FLHerne>There are 2 at each
05:23<FLHerne>It just doesn't show
05:23<Zuu>If they visit several stations and load a little bit here and there, that will not work though.
05:23<FLHerne>Turning signs off for good screenshots doesn't help that :P
05:24<andythenorth>you don't have depots at the pickup stations?
05:24<FLHerne>HEQS doesn't autorefit yet, does it?
05:24<andythenorth>how do you prevent 'tram arrives, turns around, goes back (long way) to depot for service'?
05:24*FLHerne turned off breakdowns/services
05:24<FLHerne>It just gets very annoying
05:25<andythenorth>it bothers me that the feature is so broken
05:25<andythenorth>turning it off seems like cheating
05:25<FLHerne>When I have quad-track mainlines at capacity, I really don't want holdups...
05:25<FLHerne>...especially because those the stop the service and cause more breakdowns :-(
05:25<andythenorth>breakdowns / servicing doesn't add interesting challenge, it's jus tedious
05:25<andythenorth>yet I leave it on :P
05:26<andythenorth>btw HEQS does autorefit trams, don't use it, it causes a trapped assert, and HEQS will be disabled
05:26<FLHerne>So basically, it doesn't? :P
05:26<@planetmaker>not good :-(
05:26<andythenorth>it's the spec
05:27<andythenorth>'vehicles may not change length'
05:27<andythenorth>but of course, the spec also allows that they can
05:27<FLHerne>Separate vehicles for lengths?
05:27<FLHerne>I think I said that before, actually :-(
05:27<andythenorth>removing auto-refit would be the more correct solution
05:27<andythenorth>as length-changing predates it
05:28<Chris_Booth>hi all
05:29<FLHerne>But how many sets actually use length-changing anyway?
05:29<FLHerne>I know. Can't think of any others though.
05:30<Chris_Booth>erm there was a bus set I was using the otherday
05:30<Chris_Booth>but only 2 or 3 out of all the RV sets
05:30<FLHerne>Length-changing breaks AIs anyway, and auto-refit is more use than a slight reduction in buy-menu entries
05:32<Chris_Booth>Ikarus was the other set
05:32<FLHerne>Oh, ok
05:32<Chris_Booth>oh and Long Vehicles
05:32<Chris_Booth>so those 3 are the only 3 I know of
05:32<andythenorth>some tram sets use it
05:33<andythenorth>BANDIT will use it
05:33<FLHerne>Do those get broken by auto-refits?
05:33<andythenorth>if they use auto-refit they will be disabled
05:33<FLHerne>Perhaps there should be a 'don't let the player autorefit these' flag of some kind?
05:34<FLHerne>Although autorefitting would be better :P
05:34<Chris_Booth>don't mean to sound stupid, but what is autorefit?
05:34<@Terkhen>Chris_Booth: refit your vehicles to different cargos at stations
05:35<Chris_Booth>oh so removing the need for to go depot and refit
05:35<@Terkhen>OpenGFX+ Trains stable and OpenGFX+ Road Vehicles nightly support it
05:35<FLHerne>Based on what's there, too :D
05:35<FLHerne>So makes multi-cargo trains possible finally :-)
05:35<andythenorth>FLHerne: auto-refit has to be explicitly enabled, so it won't break existing sets
05:35<@Terkhen>in OpenGFX+ we adopted a scheme based on the cargo type and the vehicle/wagon type
05:36<andythenorth>but well-meaning authors can enable it without understanding that it causes the grf to be disabled / game to be paused with warning (can't remember which)
05:36<@Terkhen>you can't refit a wagon that has been carrying coal to wheat without cleaning it at a depot first :P
05:36<FLHerne>andythenorth: So why does HEQS not-exactly-support it?
05:36<andythenorth>(1) I didn't enable it for all vehicles yet
05:37<Chris_Booth>can you implicitly tell auto refit to refit to only one cargo, something like oil -> autorefit to petrol -> autorefit to engineering supplies -> autorefit to oil?
05:37<FLHerne>Or do you count as a'well-meaning author'?
05:37<FLHerne>You can, yes
05:37<andythenorth>(2) the vehicles it is enabled for should not have it enabled
05:37<Chris_Booth>hhhm could make my FIRS station 50% smaller
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05:42*FLHerne grumbles about poor livestock support in UKRS2
05:42<FLHerne>Realistic, but very inconvenient :-(
05:45<andythenorth>you need trucks after about 1965
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05:45<FLHerne>I know. That's the probelem :-(
05:45<Chris_Booth>sounds strange forcing you to change from trains to trucks in 1965
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05:46<FLHerne>Realistic for the UK...
05:46<FLHerne>Not helpful in OTTD though
05:47<Chris_Booth>the UK is a strange place
05:49<FLHerne>Perfectly normal. Everywhere else seems strange from here, though...
05:50<Chris_Booth>lol, being from the UK I think it is strange
05:51*FLHerne was joking. Definitely strange :P
05:52<FLHerne>The rail system just doesn't make sense anymore...
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06:02<Eddi|zuHause>where's glx when you need him?
06:04<@Terkhen>tycoondemon: try #openttdcoop
06:04*Terkhen thought that the kicking was automatic :P
06:04<__ln__>it is but only when glx is here, or something like that
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06:32<__ln__>when will the OpenTTD user interface be competely redesigned and fucked up to make it touch-optimized?
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06:38<@Alberth>when the keyboard and mice have gone
06:40<frosch123>yeah, i wondered whether that was also the idea behind the default-packager of wheezy
06:42<__ln__>in two years all the desktops and laptops at homes are replaced by tablets, and the number of OTTD users will drop to zero because it's not touch-touch-touch.
06:44*andythenorth wonders if drawing pixels is easier on tablet
06:45<andythenorth>also andythenorth forgot the golden YouTube rule
06:45<@Terkhen>ignore comments?
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06:55<@Alberth>moin LordAro
06:55<LordAro>hai Alberth
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07:08<andythenorth>this pixa thing is quite good
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07:22<andythenorth>Alberth: space after comma in tuples?
07:22<@Alberth>space after comma always
07:23<@Alberth>there is a reason why the spacebar is so large :p
07:23*andythenorth has caved in and is hard-coding some x-y offsets
07:23<andythenorth>in every other part of BANDIT I've been able to use magic pixels for locating sprite sequences
07:23<andythenorth>but not here :P
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07:27<andythenorth>if this works, BANDIT will composite truck cabs with bodies and chassis
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07:53<andythenorth>so when I update pixa, how will the compile farm install of it be updated?
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08:12<andythenorth>I can no longer import pixa
08:12<andythenorth> doesn't put it in the correct path
08:14<frosch123>hmm, it does not longer crash, it does something different than before, it was wrong before... how to tell whether it is right now?
08:15<andythenorth>did it build a grf?
08:15<andythenorth>or did you try the latest pixa?
08:15*andythenorth really is starting to hate setuptools
08:15<FLHerne>Aargh. 14,726 Passengers waiting :-(
08:16<frosch123>no, i am at FS#4254
08:16<FLHerne>I need bigger trams :P
08:16<frosch123>build subway
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08:18<FLHerne>Hmm, might work. I'd have to blow up a lot of stuff to make room though :-(
08:18*FLHerne doubles the number of trams
08:20<andythenorth>so how do I install a python package?
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08:21<frosch123>alberts method with PYTHONPATH worked well for me
08:21<frosch123>no need to mess with the system
08:23<andythenorth>I'll try that
08:23<andythenorth>just wondering why the fails
08:23<andythenorth>it's built as per instructions
08:25<@Alberth>no rights to install it at its destination?
08:26<andythenorth>it installs
08:26<andythenorth>Writing /System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.6/lib/python2.6/site-packages/Pixa-0.2dev-py2.6.egg-info
08:26<andythenorth>but that python won't see it
08:27<andythenorth>it expects it to be here: /Library/Python/2.6/site-packages/pixa
08:27<andythenorth>for reasons I can't discern
08:28<andythenorth>I've copied it there manually, but this suggests my is junk
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08:30<@Alberth>or the eggy stuff is junk
08:31<@Alberth>which I consider a real possibility
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08:32<andythenorth>there's another way besides setuptools?
08:33<@Alberth>I used either distutils or autoconf tools
08:34<andythenorth>actually this is distutils
08:34<@Alberth>where the former is the python way of doing things, and the latter the gnu way of doing things
08:35*Alberth looks at the pixa file
08:35<andythenorth>grab your towel :P
08:36<@Alberth>that looks sane
08:37<@Alberth>so your Python setup is insane?
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08:37<andythenorth>also...I added PixaShiftDX, alongside PixaShiftDY
08:37<andythenorth>but might be better to have PixaShiftDXDY
08:38<andythenorth>or PixaShiftXY
08:38<andythenorth>or such
08:39<@Alberth>seems better, unless you always shift horiontally or vertically
08:39<andythenorth>no, I have a case now to do both
08:39<andythenorth>what do I do about backwards compatibility?
08:40<andythenorth>ignore it and see if anyone complains?
08:40<@Alberth>def PixaShiftDY(dy): return PixaShiftXY(0, dy)
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09:40<andythenorth>Alberth: I have a function that has args x, y
09:41<andythenorth>e.g. blah(x, y)
09:41<andythenorth>and I have the args in a tuple (x, y)
09:41<telanus>Hi. Translating today, and struggling a small bit :(
09:41<telanus>Is it OK to translate game tick (reference to game time) as speletjie tyd (= game time). As we don't have the idea/concept of game ticks in Afrikaans
09:41<andythenorth>how can I unpack the tuple to args in a small amount of code (without modifying the function)
09:42<andythenorth>or maybe I just modify the function :P
09:43<andythenorth>that works :)
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09:43<andythenorth>seemed like a common case
09:43<telanus>already didn't translate "scrolling" as the concept is more understood in english than afrikaans
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09:45<@Alberth>telanus: game tick is more a time-step
09:46<telanus>I'll leave it as "ticks" then
09:47<Zuu>Each in-game day have 74 ticks.
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10:02<frosch123>so, a tick is rough 20 minutes :p
10:04<andythenorth>did I mention ship smoke recently?
10:05*andythenorth goes back to trucks
10:06*FLHerne waits patiently for andythenorth to finish them :P
10:09<@Alberth>he prefers you to impatiently help him :p
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11:07<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r24321 /trunk/src/ (4 files): -Change/Fix [FS#4254]: [NewGRF] Group vehicles in the purchase list properly by source GRF, but also consider engine GRFID overrides.
11:10*andythenorth compiles
11:14<andythenorth>ukrs2 seems less jumbled up in the buy menu now
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11:24<@Alberth>language is too small to be useful
11:25<Elukka>good enough for israeli and/or american cyberwarfare
11:27*andythenorth has minor brainache
11:32<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: worse... it's based on the ENGLISH LANGUAGE, which is spoken/understood in MOST OF THE WORLD!
11:33<@Alberth>not chinese?
11:33<Elukka>why chinese
11:34<__ln__>actually english probably is not spoken/understood in most of the world
11:35<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: not by most of the people, but among larger groups of people it's rather likely that there is at least one person understanding it, who can translate to the others
11:36<Eddi|zuHause>the estimate was that there are around 1 billion people speaking english
11:36<__ln__>but they aren't equally distributed within the earth population
11:37<Eddi|zuHause>the british empire covered around 25% of the worlds territorries, and that was after they lost the USA
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: but there's a reason why english is the lingua franca of todays world, and not e.g. french or german (which both were for some time in the past), or greek or latin (which is somewhat longer ago)
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: most villagers will not speak a foreign language, but most villages have educated people/leaders which do, and then that foreign language is very likely to be english
11:43<__ln__>i agree it's probably more lingua franca than any other language, but english is not widely spoken or understood in places as close as Belgium or Poland.
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11:57<chlorine>Phew I finished converting my line to two one-way tracks, and it seems it stopped the glitches I observed, but it took _forever_!
11:57<chlorine>Either I'm not good at it or my map is really two big (I suspect a mix of both)
11:58<__ln__>i guess two big is better than three big
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11:59<chlorine>Sorry for the typo :p
11:59<chlorine>And by the way does anybody know how to get rid of the away status?
11:59<chlorine> /away tells me I'm already marked away...
12:05<Eddi|zuHause>[705] away Without an argument, it will set you back.
12:06<chlorine>Nope :/
12:06<Eddi|zuHause>well, with / obviously
12:06<chlorine>With the / it tells me I'm already away, without it prints away
12:06<chlorine>obviously :p
12:07<Eddi|zuHause>works here...
12:07<Eddi|zuHause>03.06.2012 18:07] [Abwesend] Sie sind nun als abwesend markiert (Grund: test).
12:07<Eddi|zuHause>[03.06.2012 18:07] [Abwesend] Sie sind nicht mehr als abwesend markiert.
12:08<chlorine>Well I guess I'll just bue the ghost of the channel...
12:08<Eddi|zuHause>must be your client screwing things up
12:08<chlorine>Yes I guess it must. I thought xchat was a good one though.
12:09<chlorine>No big problem though.
12:13<__ln__>there could be some other command for that, /unaway or something.
12:14<chlorine>Thanks, it's /back
12:14<chlorine>Should have been obvious.
12:22<andythenorth>ho ho ho
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12:28<frosch123>you're more than 6 months too early
12:31<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: does "Hyvää Päivää" have a meaning?
12:36<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: yes, it means "guten tag"
12:36<__ln__>the second word shouldn't be capitalized though
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12:43<chlorine>Is there a setting or grf that allows to give orders like 'load until 50% full' to vehicles?
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12:46<Zuu>There is a trick to have trucks shuttle back and forth between the station and a depot (or dummy station) and load cargo if available at the station. Using a conditional order, the truck will exit this back and forth shuttle and go to the destination when a given condition, eg. 50% load is met.
12:46<chlorine>Hmm, too bad.
12:46<Zuu>Check out eg. AIAI. It employs that tactic.
12:47<chlorine>I'll check it out, but I'm not sure it would be useful in my case.
12:47<chlorine>I would like to use it to have passenger trains wait a bit if they come in the station when it's completely empty, but I don't want to make them wait till they're completely full.
12:48<chlorine>Well, I'm gonna go and try to improve my shuttle service to the train station.
12:48<Zuu>Using the timetable, you can make them wait eg. 5 or 10 days.
12:48<Zuu>However, in that case, they will wait the set time amount also if they are already full.
12:49<chlorine>I'm not mastering my network enough to use a timetable I guess.
12:50<chlorine>But that's something I want to try out sometime.
12:50<Zuu>You don't need to set times for the traveling links. Only set the wait time at stations. That means that the trains will wait so many days at the given station.
12:51<Zuu>If you time-table and also set wait time at stations, then the train might wait shorter time on the stations if they run late. But if you don't time the transport links, the trains don't know if they are late and will thus just wait the given time at the stations.
12:51<chlorine>Hmm, this sounds good! :) I'll go check it.
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12:52<Zuu>The downside to this is that if a train become full, it will still sit around and wait. But at least it will contribute to the station rating also if its full I think.
12:57<andythenorth>"most of my code is optimised not for speed or beauty, but for later doing find and replace' :P
12:59<chlorine>I've set the waiting time to 2 days, it shouldn't block the train long and allow _some_ waiting.
12:59<chlorine>It seems to work fine, thanks. :)
13:07<andythenorth>ho ho ho
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13:39<@Alberth>for some reason I always think you're missing pixels at the left (due to the missing white) :)
13:41<andythenorth>I could add spurious padding :P
13:41<andythenorth>trips me up too sometimes
13:43<andythenorth>anyway, this is cabs + bodies composited
13:43<andythenorth>adding the rear wheels is probably trivial
13:43<andythenorth>I need to tweak the appearance quite a bit
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24322 /trunk/src/lang/ (afrikaans.txt german.txt latvian.txt lithuanian.txt):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: afrikaans - 22 changes by telanus
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: german - 25 changes by Jogio
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: latvian - 3 changes by Parastais
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: lithuanian - 65 changes by Stabilitronas
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15:26<@Terkhen>it looks nice
15:26<@Terkhen>no 32bpp with 8x zoom?
15:26<@planetmaker>:-D loool
15:26<@planetmaker>Damn you Terkhen, you stole my comment!
15:27<@Terkhen>it was an easy one :)
15:28<V453000>lol :)
15:28<V453000>nice trucks indeed andy
15:32<andythenorth>watch how fast I can draw one carrying steel
15:32*andythenorth starts now
15:32<V453000>after months of coding
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15:34*planetmaker wonders why the owner bought such big truck for so little cargo ;-)
15:35<andythenorth>steel is heavy :P
15:35<@planetmaker>I also wonder why the vehicle in the left-turn (moving NW) has the steel coil nearly falling off to the back of the sprite
15:35<V453000>nice :)
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15:36<@planetmaker>(right most sprites)
15:36<andythenorth>planetmaker: good catch on the coil falling off
15:36<andythenorth>that's for this:
15:37<andythenorth>he survived
15:37<andythenorth>I wouldn't have linked it if it had been deaths :|
15:42<andythenorth>improved the coil placement
15:43<__ln__>not steel but paper here:
15:44<@planetmaker>looks much better andythenorth :-)
15:45<@planetmaker>__ln__: the difference is "unharmed" vs. "worst road crash".
15:49<telanus>!night @ll
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15:53<Nat_aS>what's a good scenerio>
15:53<Nat_aS>I'm pretty much done with my barrens map
15:53<Nat_aS>I have almost all the industries covered
15:53<Nat_aS>just a few farms and mines
15:53<Nat_aS>but all the sawmills and most of the copper mines
15:53*Terkhen prefers to generate random ones
15:54*Nat_aS can't stand random maps
15:54<Nat_aS>I like it when there are tons of priamaries and few secondaries
15:54<Nat_aS>so you can focus on building a network
15:54<Nat_aS>one to many
15:55<@Terkhen>pregenerated ones have the annoying habit of forcing you to use certain NewGRF sets :)
15:55<Nat_aS>yes sadly
15:55<Nat_aS>but I find i don't get (many) errors if I swap trainsets before building anything
15:55<Nat_aS>if I build something, and then swap them, then trains start vanishing later on
15:55<Nat_aS>but not if I do it first
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15:56<@Alberth>load scenario, save heightmap, load heightmap as game
15:56<Nat_aS>then I have to rebuild towns
15:56<Nat_aS>and place industries
15:59<frosch123>Nat_aS: write a newgrf to reduce the number of secondary industries to 1
16:00<frosch123>for default industries just set the probability to 1, or even use cb 28
16:09<Sacro>grr, is there an ubuntu dedicated server package that doesn't require half of X?
16:09<@Alberth>ubuntu and not X ? :D
16:10<@planetmaker>like windows without gui? ;-)
16:10<Sacro>I'm running Ubuntu Server
16:10<frosch123>is there also kubuntu server?
16:10<frosch123>which uses kde instead of gnome for the server?
16:10<@Alberth>that's for the other half of X :)
16:11<Sacro>I don't run X on it
16:11<+glx>Sacro: compile yourself then
16:11<Sacro>actually, the requirements for compiling don't include all that cruft
16:11<Sacro>but do require the -dev stuff
16:11<frosch123>btw. someone knows when debian will release separate releases for touch-screen and non-touch-screen devices?
16:12<@Alberth>Sacro: I don't think ubuntu understands that people may not want to use X
16:12<Sacro>Alberth: it's not ubuntu that's the issue
16:12<Sacro>it's openttd not releasing openttd-server packages :p
16:13<@Alberth>oh, for those 20 server owners?
16:13<@Terkhen>you can compile OpenTTD with the options to allow that
16:13<@Terkhen>or use a normal (GUI) package for your sever
16:13<Sacro>Terkhen: I was hoping they'd be prebuilt so I don't need to install all the -dev packages on my server
16:13<@Alberth>where half of them use windows probably, so have a gui anyway
16:14<@Terkhen>what I mean is: we give precompiled builds and the options for anyone else to compile the game as they want to
16:14<@Terkhen>linux distributions could easily create openttd-server packages if they wanted to
16:14<@Alberth>build at your desktop :p
16:14<Sacro>my desktop runs Arch
16:16<@Terkhen>if your server had Arch too you could create openttd-server in the aur :P
16:17<Sacro>Terkhen: I already wrote all the ones in the AUR
16:17<Sacro>the stable PKGBUILD was written by me too
16:17<@Terkhen>I know :)
16:17<@Terkhen>I checked them when I installed Arch
16:17<Sacro>-svn still has me as the contributer
16:17<frosch123>then build on arch
16:17<Sacro>I wrote the first one back for 0.4.0
16:18<Sacro>that was awful Makefile hackery
16:18<frosch123>a dedicated build which does not need all the weird libraries is probably portable between distributions
16:18<frosch123>no icu and such
16:19<@Terkhen>yes, IIRC icu is the biggest PITA
16:19<Sacro>I'd rather have a deb :(
16:19<Sacro>might install LXC and do it in there
16:35<chlorine>What's a gook moneymaker train for toyland?
16:35<chlorine>I chose bubbles but I think I might have made a mistake :/
16:35<@Terkhen>sugar, toffee and candyfloss
16:36<andythenorth>what is toyland? :o
16:36<chlorine>OK, thanks!
16:36<chlorine>toyland is a type of map you can play on.
16:37<chlorine>Industries are replaced by toy versions, like candy factory that requires sugar, fuzzy drink factory which requires bubbles, and so on.
16:37<chlorine>It's the first time I'm trying to play a toyland game.
16:37<frosch123>yup, indeed, sugar, toffee, candyfloss
16:38<frosch123>all go to sweet factory, so you get lots of sweets quite fast
16:38<frosch123>andythenorth: the climate with the most detailed industry animations
16:38*andythenorth ponders patching his game to remove toyland
16:39<andythenorth>just the menu item
16:39<chlorine>I'll wait to get some of my money from the bubble train then I'll try sugar, toffee or candyfloss
16:39<@Terkhen>chlorine: HEQS works fine for carrying those cargos in toyland :D
16:39<andythenorth>maybe I should change the climate availability on that :P
16:40<@Terkhen>as long as you don't mind a fork :P
16:40<frosch123>sadly av8 seems to have done that
16:40<frosch123>there are no planes with av8 in toyland, it does not even give an error message
16:40<andythenorth>toyland specific graphics: antenna for RC
16:40<chlorine>Terkhen, what's HEQS?
16:40<andythenorth>[and remove the smoke effects]
16:41<@Terkhen>chlorine: HEQS is a road vehicle NewGRF set that includes Heavy Equipment, such as mining vehicles
16:41<@Terkhen>but the author might not like it being used in toyland :P
16:42<@planetmaker>most awesome cargo IMHO are bubbles :-)
16:42<@Terkhen>frosch123: yes, I never understood that
16:42<chlorine>Ah, heavy vehicules would be nice, my trains are _slow_!
16:43<chlorine>These bubbles must weigh a lot! :p
16:43*Alberth always does the toy chain
16:43<chlorine>But it _is_ quite awesome to be carrying bubbles around in train cars. :)
16:43<@planetmaker>one ton of bubbles surely weighs more than one ton of feathers :-P
16:43<andythenorth>right BANDIT is finished, let's release v1.0
16:43<chlorine>Alberth: OK, I
16:44<chlorine>OK, I'll just have to try all the industry chains.
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16:44<andythenorth>oops, andythenorth was smoking crack
16:44<andythenorth>BANDIT is not finished :P
16:46<@Alberth>good night
16:46<andythenorth>moi aussi
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16:49<chlorine>Darn I messed up my signals and now my trains are blocked!
16:49<chlorine>I still got a lot to learn.
16:50<@Terkhen>still happens even after you learn
16:50<opa>then you just got a bigger mess :P
16:51<chlorine>I don't know if it's reassuring or not.
16:52<chlorine>Anyway it was a smaller mistake than it seemed, I've already fixed it. :)
16:52<@Terkhen>it means that the fun will still be there after you learn :P
16:55<Sacro>Collation: the regex [a-f] imbued with a French locale should match the character é. torti[^x]a in a Spanish locale should match "tortilla", as the double-l is counted as a single character.
16:55<Sacro>Similarly, \w in a Finnish locale should match the character ä (but [a-z] should not, as å, ä and ö collate after z in Finnish
16:56<@Terkhen>I tried to understand collations when I coded natural sorting... my conclusion was that collation is a magic box that does language specific stuff
16:58<__ln__>indeed, but that's why locale data exists
16:59<__ln__>although... locale data doesn't always contain all the details
17:01<@Terkhen>stuff like "ll is considered a single character in spanish" is difficult to be taken into account
17:01<@Terkhen>although I think that's not true anymore :P
17:02<__ln__>are you aware of the standard C function strcoll()?
17:02<@Terkhen>it does UTF?
17:05<__ln__>probably implementation-defined
17:05<TinoDidriksen>Doesn't do UTF.
17:05<TinoDidriksen>At least not correctly.
17:05<__ln__>program correctness is so 80's
17:06<@Terkhen>it's not an option then
17:06<@Terkhen>honestly, I don't know much about different options to do language specific sorting
17:06<@Terkhen>I just used ICU because OpenTTD already included it
17:08<TinoDidriksen>ICU is by far the best...
17:09<+michi_cc>More like the only one... Unicode (and not just the encoding stuff) is a *monster* :)
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i'm not an expert, but "name[strlen(name)-1]=0" seems a little nonsensical to me...
17:10<TinoDidriksen>It trims the last char from the string.
17:11<Zuu>does it work with multi byte characters?
17:13<Eddi|zuHause>it's a line following an fgets, so possibly it's supposed to remove the '\n'
17:14<frosch123>or "\r" :p
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>see... it'll already fail on an "\n\r"
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>or the other way around
17:17<TinoDidriksen>It's not great code, sure...
17:19<TinoDidriksen>for (size_t z = strlen(name) ; z > 1 && (name[z-1] == '\n' || name[z-1] == '\r' || name[z-1] == '...all the other valid linebreaks...') ; --z) { name[z-1] = 0; }
17:20<Eddi|zuHause>call this stuff "trim", "strip" or similar, and make it a libary function...
17:20<Eddi|zuHause>life could be so easy...
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17:21<@Terkhen>if you want nice, shiny stuff in your common libraries just use Java, but the real world is nastier :P
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17:22<Eddi|zuHause>i'll stick to python unless there's a very good reason not to...
17:22<TinoDidriksen>Or use C++ and Boost and ICU.
17:22<@Terkhen>I can't talk about python myself, but from what I have heard it is nice in these regards too :P
17:23<@Terkhen>TinoDidriksen: I was talking about niceness in the "default libraries have a good, consistent function for everything" way
17:24<TinoDidriksen>Python and Unicode wasn't very nice in Python 2. No clue about Python 3, though, but 2 got it mostly wrong.
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>the problem with java is that it's very noisy bloat until you can actually start doing what you want
17:26<Eddi|zuHause>that stuff always puts me off
17:26<@Terkhen>indeed, that's why I mentioned "the real world"
17:27<Eddi|zuHause>when i programmed java some 10-ish years ago (man, i'm getting old) you needed to go through all kinds of hoops to get even a console input
17:27<@Terkhen>oh, that kind of bloat? no, it is quite easy now
17:28<@Terkhen>mostly everything is easy
17:28<@Terkhen>but you have to create a lot of objects to do simple things
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>the other kind of bloat is that you need to specify
17:29<@Terkhen>you can use imports for that
17:29<chlorine>OK, time to go to bed. See you!
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17:30<Eddi|zuHause>and a few shortcomings that made it annoying
17:31<Eddi|zuHause>while almost everything feels natural in python
17:31<Eddi|zuHause>only the lack of switch/case i occasionally stumble upon
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17:45<Wolf01>'night all
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17:47<@Terkhen>good night
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---Logclosed Mon Jun 04 00:00:06 2012