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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-06-12

---Logopened Tue Jun 12 00:00:17 2012
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00:03<DabuYu>ganesh: see here for more information:
00:04<ganesh>yeah! i saw!
00:04<DabuYu>maybe send a second mail with your username to that address, i think that should be fine
00:04<DabuYu>(i'm not a translator or coder here, just here out of interest)
00:04<ganesh>oh! anyway thx for the info!
00:05<DabuYu>it's often quiet here so just hang around for a while is the best i think
00:05<DabuYu>but there are people here so don't worry :)
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00:16<NataS>what's the most exotic language OTTD is avalable in?
00:17<DabuYu>depends on your definition of exotic?
00:17<NataS>Least amount of speakers?
00:17<NataS>Most different from western languages?
00:17<DabuYu>arabic, chinese?
00:18<DabuYu>least amount, hm...
00:18<NataS>Arabic and Chinese are exotic linguisticly, but have more speakers than Tamal probably
00:19<DabuYu>choose one from list:
00:19<NataS>that link seems to be for translating the wiki
00:20<NataS>the first one, not the one you just posted
00:20<DabuYu>the first link is the one i got to when i clicked on the main page for 'translating openttd'
00:21<NataS>lazy linking
00:21<NataS>spoonfeed better
00:21<telanus>Think the most exotic could be Ido, as it's the least translated
00:22<DabuYu>and probably has the least speakers too, as it's based on Esperanto...
00:23<NataS>what about Klingon?
00:23<NataS>also, we have traditional as well as simplified Chinese.
00:23<NataS>just in case the Quin Emperor wants to play.
00:24<DabuYu>they use traditional chinese in Taiwan
00:25<DabuYu>that's 23 million people
00:25<NataS>but it's unfinished and needs a translator.
00:25<NataS>also we need an Ido translator
00:25<NataS>just in case Esperanto is too Eurocentric for you
00:25<DabuYu>try to find one out of the 200 users :)
00:26<DabuYu>(200 worldwide Ido users)
00:26<NataS>oh wow
00:26<DabuYu>(in 2000 - not sure how many now)
00:26<DabuYu>wiki is useful
00:26<NataS>it's like Esperanto for hipsters.
00:27<NataS>No Klingon though
00:27<NataS>also no pirate
00:27<NataS>Every translation project needs joke languages
00:28<DabuYu>must be difficult to interpret:
00:28<DabuYu>how about pirate town names?
00:28*NataS volunteers to do a pirate translation.
00:28*DabuYu thinks NataS will put all text through a piratifyer script
00:29<NataS>lots of klingon speakers use the latin alphebet though.
00:29<NataS>nah, I'd manualy replace Everything with Yar
00:29<NataS>and swap out nouns for nautical ones
00:29<telanus>we could do Drow
00:29<NataS>I'd make it so building boats would still be playable.
00:30<NataS>also, the part that tells you that you have to buy a real copy of TTD (yeah right), would just give you a link to bittorent
00:32<DabuYu>openttd in 1600-1800 has sailing boats
00:32<NataS>too bad no newgrf disasters
00:32<NataS>so you can't have pirates
00:32<NataS>or train robbers
00:32<DabuYu>wouldn't that be cool
00:33<NataS>which would be much cooler than halfassed xcom reffrences that everyone disables anyways.
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00:40<NataS>Ido sounds really Romance for an international language.
00:41<NataS>how is it better than Espranto?
00:41<DabuYu>how many people will you find speaking both?
00:41<DabuYu>if you find one, ask him/her :)
00:42<NataS>I only learned about it from the fact that it
00:42<NataS>it's the smallest translation of OTTD
00:42<NataS>Answering my first question, but raising much more.
00:43<DabuYu>maybe the translation could be dropped as the most important question is 'how many people will actually use it in openttd'
00:43<NataS>>The US Army has published military phrase books in Esperanto,[14] to be used in war games by mock enemy forces.
00:43<NataS>that's about the only real use of these manufactured languages i can think of.
00:43<NataS>Colonial languages do just fine for trade languages
00:44<DabuYu>it's like a kids secret language for grownups
00:44<NataS>any complain of Eurocentrism falls flat when the alternative sounds like Spanish and french fucking while Russian watches in the corner masturbating
00:45<NataS>if you can learn Espranto easily, you probably already speak or can easily learn a real one like french or english.
00:50<NataS>Lobijan is probably better
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00:59<Rubidium>NataS: Pig Latin
01:00<NataS>IghtRay ickClay
01:00<NataS>i mean ntrolCay ickClay
01:02<Rubidium>{BLACK}Electsay 'Ustomcay 1' (userway-efinedday) ogrammepray
01:02<Rubidium>Ailwayray acktray ithway athpay andway oneway-ayway athpay ignalssay
01:02<Rubidium>ah well:
01:02<NataS>i was doing it by hand
01:03<NataS>that's wrong
01:03<NataS>PenTTDOway is the correct translation
01:07<Rubidium>well, the translation is trashed as nobody really maintained it (or the script that created it)
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01:30<Rubidium>good evening andy!
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01:51<Rubidium>time for bed then ;)
01:55<andythenorth>All bound for mu mu land
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03:22<Supercheese>Well, good night folks
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03:35*NGC3982 is so tired.
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11:32<andythenorth>quiet forums day
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11:38<LordAro>yay, raspberrypi :)
11:40<andythenorth>does it run ottd?
11:40<andythenorth>can you compile BANDIT on it?
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11:42<andythenorth>FLHerne: the case you found that broke my cargo routing solved
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11:49<LordAro>andythenorth: dunno, i have to locate a power supply first :)
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12:30<frosch123>haha, i think tb scared everyone away
12:30<frosch123>his post from yesterday is still the latest post in general ottd
12:36<Xaroth>he does that from time to time
12:37<Xaroth>scaring people
12:38<Xaroth>he really did scare people
12:39<Sacro>@seen Bjarni
12:39<@DorpsGek>Sacro: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 35 weeks, 4 days, 16 hours, 20 minutes, and 4 seconds ago: <Bjarni> heh
12:40<@planetmaker>tbh, I miss the point or reference of that thread entirely
12:40<andythenorth>TrueBrain had been too good for too long; the pressure got to him :P
12:41<frosch123>planetmaker: didn't you also have to hand over all your insanity to tb upon joining the dev team?
12:42<TrueBrain>planetmaker: a clear case of: damn, this community has gotten uptight :P
12:42*andythenorth kept his own insanity safe here
12:42<@planetmaker>what? Hand over my insanity? Never I would part from it ;-)
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12:42<frosch123>"uhm... on the risk of sidetracking: the category is already readily shown in the general download window..." <- sorry planetmaker: i fail to understand that sentence :s
12:43<frosch123>do you mean the category column in the list?
12:43<@planetmaker>frosch123: 'heightmap', 'newgrf' etc... is a column on its own in the general content downloald window
12:43<andythenorth>TrueBrain: here's something I made once (not just me, I don't claim the full credit :o )
12:44<TrueBrain>dinner, bbl
12:45<andythenorth>meh, I can't get the game to make copies:
12:45<andythenorth>can anyone else? I'm guessing flash got faster, and the interval is too short :P
12:47<@planetmaker>i got a copy
12:47<andythenorth>maybe I click too slow
12:47<andythenorth>you can do copy combos if you're prepared to waste enough time
12:47<@planetmaker>but it's making a strain on the touchpad and my finger
12:47<andythenorth>don't sue me ;)
12:48<andythenorth>oh I got it working, 7 copies
12:48<andythenorth>it had tracking in once, someone did hundreds of copies iirc
12:48<andythenorth>or they hacked the tracking API :P
12:49<@planetmaker>insane ;-)
12:50<andythenorth>those were fun days, but now I am responsible :P
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12:54<FLHerne>andythenorth: sorry, wasn't paying attention. How did you fix it?
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12:57<andythenorth>you won't approve
12:57<andythenorth>my proposal is based around nodes yes?
12:58<andythenorth>and for any cargo going to a specific destination, each node has a weighting
12:58<andythenorth>and any vehicle arriving at the station (node) has other nodes in its orders, each with a weighting
12:58<andythenorth>the cargo will be loaded on the vehicle if any of the nodes in the order list have lower weighting than current node
12:59<andythenorth>if I change how the weighting is calculated, then it will load on your long transfer scheme
13:00<andythenorth>so if you have, say 7 nodes in the transfer chain, the start node is weighted 7, and the next one 6 and so on, so it's ok
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13:00<andythenorth>the other, shorter route would have a node weighted 1
13:00<andythenorth>so cargo would be transported by both routes
13:00<andythenorth>but you could control that via the frequency + capacity of vehicles
13:01<FLHerne>That sounds more useful :-)
13:01<andythenorth>but maybe it should all be done simutrans way; cargo is routed, via waybills specifying route
13:01<andythenorth>then valid vehicles pick it up
13:02<andythenorth>so there would be a cargo flow 'coal from tinton mines to frampington power station'
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13:03*FLHerne doesn't like YACD-style routing
13:03<andythenorth>which would be routed as 'any route', 'go via xyz', 'go via xyz, then abc' etc
13:03<andythenorth>I don't want a system that tries to simplify routing, then adds more orders and more clicking :P
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13:06<andythenorth>FLHerne: you don't like YACD style routing because....?
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13:09<Elukka>i like yacd style routing and wish it worked as well as cargodist :/
13:09<FLHerne>Because I want to be able to send cargo wherever I want, not where the game wants it :P
13:17<Prof_Frink>Every gram of livestock, grain and steel to a factory in one corner of the map, and goods to a city in the far corner?
13:18<FLHerne>Right on all but the goods. I send those everywhere by pax train :D
13:19<andythenorth>so what if cargo was routed
13:19<andythenorth>where it's routed is a setting
13:20<andythenorth>you can set a route, or the game can set a route
13:20<andythenorth>depending on game style you want
13:21<andythenorth>then the actual routing is handled by [some rules]
13:21<andythenorth>a start node and an end node are always present
13:21<andythenorth>and the player can force intermediate nodes
13:21<andythenorth>or let the game route according to [rules]
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13:23<andythenorth>why did I never play civ? I like SM games
13:24<Prof_Frink>S&M games?
13:25<andythenorth>Sid Meier :P
13:26<Pinkbeast>andy: selection effect. The person like you who has the time to do all those OTTD sets is the one who didn't ever play Civ.
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13:33<andythenorth>maybe I should get a copy of Civ :P
13:33<andythenorth>Civ probably needs big trucks anyway
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13:45<@Terkhen>andythenorth: if you just want to check civilization games, freeciv is worth a try
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r24340 /trunk/src/lang/ (9 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: afrikaans - 1 changes by telanus
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: dutch - 2 changes by habell
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: greek - 6 changes by kyrm
13:46<CIA-2>OpenTTD: korean - 4 changes by telk5093
13:46<CIA-2>OpenTTD: persian - 10 changes by Peymanpn
13:46<andythenorth>I think more likely I want to spend 10 years playing it :D
13:48<andythenorth>is it practical for cargo packets to store a route?
13:48<andythenorth>probably not per packet
13:48<andythenorth>but they could have a pointer to a route pool?
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13:56<FLHerne>Are newgrf buoys possible yet?
13:58*FLHerne imagines a wide variety of them :-)
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14:00<@Terkhen>andythenorth: no idea :P
14:02<frosch123>they store the id of their source station
14:02<frosch123>so instead you could store the id of the source order
14:03<frosch123>since implicit orders all loading places have an order actually
14:03<frosch123>you just need some way to keep orders when they are deleted from the vehicle as long as the cargo exists :p
14:03*andythenorth has ideas for cleanly separated layers of cargo routing
14:03<andythenorth>probably foolish
14:04<frosch123>hmm, otoh, a single order index could not represent transfers
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14:04<frosch123>there is no releation betweeen vehicle orders and routes, is there?
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14:04<frosch123>routes could consist of the orders of multipel vehicles
14:04<andythenorth>routes are nodes
14:05<andythenorth>and links
14:05<andythenorth>(nodes imply links I guess ):P
14:07<andythenorth>route would be: source [optional intermediate nodes] destination
14:13*andythenorth ponders two options
14:14<andythenorth>- pre-compute the entire route with the pathfinder, cache
14:14<andythenorth>on arrival at a station, cargo packet looks up next node on route
14:15<andythenorth>- store the weighting of previous station in the cargo packet,
14:15<andythenorth>on arrival at any station, unload if weighting is lower than previous station
14:15<andythenorth>second option is more fluid, but will have horrible edge cases
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14:19<andythenorth>oh dear
14:20*andythenorth just invented a form of 'shunting' based on cargo-vehicle-container routes :P
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14:21<andythenorth>give vehicles a certain number of 'slots'
14:21<andythenorth>ach, we've done this idea before :)
14:21<andythenorth>but without the idea of giving cargo routes
14:22<andythenorth>it works best for trains, not other vehicle types
14:26<FLHerne>Are ships with more than one cargo possibel?
14:26<FLHerne>s/possibel/possible/, even :-(
14:27<FLHerne>Can I have some in FISH please? :P
14:27<@Yexo>FLHerne: it's not currently possible
14:27<@Yexo>with code changes it could become possible, I think andythenorth referred to that
14:27<andythenorth>I haven't read those parts of code
14:28<andythenorth>my guess is it's a patch more on the lines of 'tedious' than 'brainfuck'
14:28<andythenorth>as well as core game, it would need extension of newgrf spec for things like
14:28<andythenorth>'most common cargo type on this ship'
14:28<andythenorth>'all cargo types on this ship'
14:29<andythenorth>and gui work for refitting one vehicle to n cargos
14:29<andythenorth>for ships, providing is as 'n holds' might be nicest, but that might be considered not generic enough
14:29<andythenorth>and possibly not good for PAX :P
14:29<FLHerne>Multiple 'holds' would make autorefit more useful :-)
14:29<FLHerne>Ninja'd as usual:-(
14:31<NataS>I'd love to see airplanes and boats hold mixed cargos
14:31<NataS>within reason, Oil and Grain and Coal should probably require specalized ships
14:32<FLHerne>Also, can ships be animated? Or is the wake just a fixed pixel-sequence thing?
14:32<NataS>question, has anybody transported water by boat?
14:32<andythenorth>FLHerne: can be animated, the work to do it would suck
14:33<andythenorth>and yes, water tank ships exist, as do orange juice tankers
14:33<FLHerne>Is there a maximum number of animation stages?
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14:33<andythenorth>might be 255, or some bigger number
14:33<andythenorth>newgrf wiki would tell you
14:34*andythenorth is assuming ships have animation :P
14:34<@Alberth>lo andy
14:34<andythenorth>hi Alberth
14:34<FLHerne>If some of those were entirely transparent... ;)
14:35*FLHerne has a crazy idea :D
14:37<FLHerne>Someone tell me why whales are a bad idea :P
14:38<@Alberth>why whales are a bad idea
14:38<NataS>because newgrf disasters are not implemented
14:38<NataS>or do you mean a whaling industry?
14:39<NataS>that's because ocean industries are still hardlinked into oil rigs, so they have to produce PAX and accept helicopters.
14:39<FLHerne>No, whales as ships :-)
14:39<NataS>what cargo would whales carry?
14:39<@Yexo>disaster: whale hunters arrive
14:39<FLHerne>1 person, presumably :P
14:40<NataS>disaster: Sea shepard harasses your oil tankers.
14:40<FLHerne>If ships can be animated and some stages invisible, whales would be possible?
14:40<NataS>what about submarines?
14:40<NataS>those could be animated as shadows underwater
14:40<@Yexo>no idea if animation for ships is possible though
14:41<NataS>Heck, supercavitating submarines would be cool for fast future ships
14:41<NataS>Uhh, FISH ships raise or lower in the water when loading/unloading
14:41<NataS>That's an animation isn't it?
14:42<NataS>oh, just different sprites for multiple load levels?
14:42<andythenorth>hmm, all vehicles claim to have a motion counter
14:43<andythenorth>can't see any animation varaction 2, or triggers
14:43<andythenorth>I guess that's tiles-only stuff
14:44<FLHerne>So no whales? :-(
14:44*FLHerne hasn't tried NewGRF development yet
14:45<NataS>or submarines
14:46<NataS>you'd need multible frames, when it stop's it's at the surface, then as it accelerates it dives, and at full speed you see a wake of bubbles on the surface as it supercavitates.
14:47<@Yexo>don't ships slow down in curves?
14:47<frosch123>you can animate ships bases on the movement counter or depending on time
14:48<frosch123>just like trains
14:48<frosch123>i think there are steam engines with animated rods
14:48<frosch123>though now i actually wonder whether you can see that without extrazoom :p
14:49<@Yexo>although you could do stuff with that like: submerged when in the water, above water when (un)loading, you can't make it dive when leaving the dock
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14:50<andythenorth>Yexo: check speed
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14:50<@Yexo>that fails in corners
14:50<andythenorth>that's how FISH hydrofoils elevate :)
14:50<frosch123>i don't think that ships slow in curves
14:50<frosch123>but they do not deaccelerate
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14:50<frosch123>they just stop :p
14:50<andythenorth>ship handling is pretty basic
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14:51<frosch123>so diving down should work (unless there is a breakdown), but diving up fails
14:51<andythenorth>it will come up like a cork :P
14:51<andythenorth>ship animation is not a high priority :)
14:51<andythenorth>I haven't found any use for it so far
14:52<andythenorth>I considered animating smoke :P
14:52<frosch123>with extra zoom you clearly have to make the radar thingie rotate
14:52<frosch123>sailing ships could animate the sails
14:52<frosch123>smaller ships could ride on the waves
14:53<frosch123>or turn over
14:53<andythenorth>oh indeed :P
14:53<andythenorth>I would settle for smoke effect vehicles :P
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14:54<frosch123>there is now a flag to hide the breakdown effect
14:54<frosch123>so you can just animate the vehicle itself while it is broken down
14:54<frosch123>fish ships should really turn over on breakdowns :p
14:55<@Yexo>they should lose part of their cargo when they break down and turn over :p
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14:57<andythenorth>no :P
14:57<andythenorth>that's new disasters
14:57<FLHerne>Are those planned? :P
14:58<frosch123>depends on what you consider "planned"
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15:04*Xaroth eats cornishpasty
15:06<@Alberth>you should eat more during dinner instead
15:08*andythenorth -> pub
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15:29<@Alberth>back already?
15:30<andythenorth>in the pub now
15:31<andythenorth>most of our important work happens in the pub
15:31<Knogle>mm, beer
15:31<@Alberth>Knogle: nah, informal meetings!
15:32<TrueBrain>stupid british people
15:33<TrueBrain>too much business happens drunk
15:33<Knogle>jealous much?
15:33<@Alberth>the least drunk persone wins :)
15:34<TrueBrain>Knogle: very
15:40<andythenorth>TrueBrain: stupid? :P
15:40<andythenorth>last css I'm writing for you (this week) :P
15:40<TrueBrain>good; I wouldnt want you to get overworked :D
15:43<andythenorth>is 'the pub' why Britain is not much good at tech? :P
15:47<TrueBrain>only at tech?
15:47<TrueBrain>you made it so easy
15:53<Zuu>TrueBrain: Did you get carried away by the abuse discussion and missed my suggestion just before Hyronymus. Or shall I take your silence as you agree completely and there is nothing to discuss. ;-)
15:54<TrueBrain>Zuu: I read it, kinda anyway; atm I just filter through things that need replying
15:55<TrueBrain>and stuff that can be handled when we sit down to rewrite it
15:55<TrueBrain>but I like the idea to split it in deps/suggestions
15:55<TrueBrain>only makes sense
15:56<Zuu>Ok good
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15:58<TrueBrain>kinda wanted to take the day of off politics, but replies like Hyro need some stearing to get a reply that contributed; no offense or anything, but vague replies only make me puzzle; I need clear reactions like you did Zuu :)
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16:01*andythenorth visits forum
16:02<andythenorth>[god] save us from well-meaning suggestions made by people with no idea....
16:02<andythenorth>...what the problem is
16:02<andythenorth>I have to do a lot of work getting people to generate ideas
16:02<TrueBrain>it is one of the hardest parts of being an IT person I think
16:02<andythenorth>and I have learnt to never criticise or shut down an idea because it leads to silence
16:02<TrueBrain>making the other part understand what you need to progress
16:03<andythenorth>but I have also learnt to be very clear on what the fricking problem is :P
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16:03<TrueBrain>hehe; indeed. Try to positively induce better ideas ;)
16:03<andythenorth>don't waste time solving non problems
16:03<TrueBrain>and, like said yesterday: that is more for version N
16:03<andythenorth>we'll all be dead soon, don't spend precious minutes on retrograde bullshit :P
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16:03*andythenorth will go back to doing work in the pub
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16:51<TrueBrain>monster thread created; andythenorth asked for it, andythenorth gets it :P
16:53<andythenorth>TrueBrain: "Many would ask: why not PHP?"
16:53<andythenorth>^ surely the answer to that is obvious? :P
16:53*andythenorth somewhere got a prejudice against PHP, with zero evidence :P
16:53<TrueBrain>I still felt the need to answer it :)
16:54<andythenorth>it is bad behaviour from me
16:54<andythenorth>I have never written any PHP, I don't know why I think it's so meh
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16:55<andythenorth>mostly because lots of bad developers can do PHP and PHP only :P
16:55<andythenorth>it's a social judgement not a technical judgement :P
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17:11<@Terkhen> good night
17:13<andythenorth>bye Terkhen
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17:32<Sacro>Guybrush: don't ask to ask
17:32<Guybrush>Good evening!
17:33<Guybrush>Come again?
17:34<Guybrush>Oh, I see. Rivers, in the map editor. Where do I find them?
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18:00<andythenorth>do we like tree structures?
18:00*andythenorth is not convinced, don't have any good case tho
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19:33<Wolf01>'night all
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---Logclosed Wed Jun 13 00:00:19 2012