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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-06-14

---Logopened Thu Jun 14 00:00:21 2012
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02:52<dihedral>hello :-)
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03:23<dihedral>hello :-)
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09:55<__ln___>Belugas: the canadian is causing trouble over here again
09:56<@Belugas>who the hell is the canadian?
09:56<__ln___>stephen elop
09:58<__ln___>i just wanted to share this piece of information even though there's probably not much you can do about it
10:02<@planetmaker>for me there's only one "the canandian" ;-) And he's in this channel :-P
10:16<@Belugas>who the hell is stephen elop> I only know of stephen harper and i don't like him at all
10:16<cornishpasty>Belugas: CEO of Nokia
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10:18<@Belugas>thanks cornishpasty. and why is he causing trouble? he wants to stop ottd to run on his devices?
10:19<cornishpasty>Belugas: no idea, I'm not __ln___
10:21<@Belugas>planetmaker, i think i know who you are talking about :)
10:21<@planetmaker>hehe :)
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11:06<andythenorth>TrueBrain: grfs have bananas metadata right? And metadata is fields? And field values are arbitrary (e.g. string), or from a taxonomy (e.g select), or range (date)
11:06<andythenorth>so all this stuff about categorising is just a filter stack
11:08<andythenorth>if we could inspect the actions in the grf we'd know what it provides
11:08<andythenorth>'includes trains'
11:08<andythenorth>'includes houses'
11:09<andythenorth>inspecting the grf might be too magucal :P
11:14<andythenorth>give em accounts, then saved searches :P
11:15<andythenorth>rss feeds of their search
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11:18<andythenorth>js widget rendering search results
11:19<andythenorth>embed links to all openttcdoop grfs on ottdcoop site, all pikka grfs on pikka site, all usa grfs on usa set site etc
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11:30<ben1066>Is there any way to make the android version more usable
11:31<ben1066>it always seems that everything on screen is too small
11:32<Rubidium>1) there is no android version, 2) the version that you have is just the normal version that runs on android, 3) not without a massive amount of effort or a significantly bigger screen
11:32<ben1066>Ah okay
11:32<ben1066>There isn't any way to make the UI more touch friendly?
11:32<Rubidium>4) none of the official developers work on an android version
11:33<Rubidium>5) design rules for the user interface are: min 640x480 screen and a mouse pointer
11:33<ben1066>And let's see, android goes down to 240x320 with a fat finger :p
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12:12<Sacro_>this isn't right
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12:35<@Terkhen>hi LordAro
12:46<@planetmaker>ben1066: of course there is a way. But that way involves the path of creating a repo and supplying patches :-)
12:46<ben1066>Wait, you mean effort :P Na, I'm just kidding
12:47<ben1066>I like programming, but I'm crap at UI design
12:47<@planetmaker>the quoted 640x480 are what the current UI is designed for. Doesn't mean there can't be different solutions for smaller devices (though I wonder whether that's useful, especially given that even han..
12:47<@planetmaker>...even handheld devices have an increasingly higher screen resolution
12:47<ben1066>But that doesnt help the SIZE of UI
12:47<ben1066>The buttons are tiny
12:47<@planetmaker>yes, true.
12:48<@planetmaker>you know the opengfx biggui newgrf?
12:48<@planetmaker>it allows all ui sprites in 1.5x and 2x zoom
12:48<@planetmaker>it can be loaded statically so that it not needs activation for each game
12:49<@planetmaker>despite that, not all of the UI scales in all cases properly afair
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12:49<@Terkhen>I don't think that biggui would make a difference
12:49<@Terkhen>the control is too bad, at least on a phone
12:49<team-pedro>i need help
12:49<@planetmaker>Terkhen: sure. But it's one step on a probably long road
12:49<@Terkhen>IMO the biggest problem with android support is that it would need a separate interface, and maintaining two interfaces would be a PITA :)
12:49<team-pedro>haha funny lol
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12:50<@planetmaker>like... better support for touch devices. On OSX there are some rudimentary support, but...
12:50<@Terkhen>team-pedro: we can't help you if we don't know your problem
12:50<team-pedro>ok, im trying to start an internet server (which will appear on the list) how do i do this plz?
12:50<@planetmaker>Terkhen: yes, that'd be the PITA, if you have a completely different UI. Not sure it's needed entirely though. But possibly
12:51<@planetmaker>team-pedro: just start it as dedicated server and be done
12:51<@planetmaker>make sure ports are clear
12:51<@planetmaker>read multiplayer.txt
12:51<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
12:52<@Terkhen>planetmaker: I tested it yesterday, maybe I made a poor selection wrt to how mouse is handled (the android app has a menu at the beginning that lets you choose)
12:53<@Terkhen>but even if it had better touch support the game interface would still be poorly suited for a small touchscreen
12:53<@planetmaker>aye. Well. I play openttd with a touchpad for years. That works for me. But ofc that still has "mouse" buttons
12:53<team-pedro>i just tried the -D and it doesnt like it
12:53<@planetmaker>team-pedro: that's no error description
12:53<team-pedro>problem with shortcut
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12:54<@planetmaker>-D is not -d
12:54<@Terkhen>team-pedro: and if you don't give us better error descriptions we will not be able to help you :)
12:54<@planetmaker>(if you didn't notice the difference)
12:54<team-pedro>thats what i did and no luck
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12:54<@planetmaker>what's "that"
12:55<@planetmaker>you didn't quote a single complete line yet. Neither of input nor output
12:55<team-pedro>i put -D and the end of the target
12:55<@planetmaker>How are we even supposed to start helping you?
12:55<@planetmaker>we don't even know which OS you're on yet
12:55<team-pedro>says the target is not valid
12:55<team-pedro>windows 7
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12:56<@planetmaker>you need to have openttd in the path or be in the proper dir
12:56<@planetmaker>you know the command prompt?
12:56<team-pedro>whats that
12:56<@planetmaker>if you just want to host a game from your home machine, just start it normally in non-dedicated mode
12:57<team-pedro>right i would like to have a game where me and my brother can play, he live 2hrs away from mand we are both on the internet
12:57<@Terkhen>team-pedro: if you don't know what is the command prompt it will be quite easier for you to do what planetmaker says; just start a non-dedicated server
12:57<@Terkhen>team-pedro: see
12:57<@planetmaker>team-pedro: ok, then don't bother with a dedicated server
12:57<cornishpasty>planetmaker: Can you please explain to me how to do a very basic task on my own computer?
12:57<@planetmaker>cornishpasty: I'm afraid, I can't
12:58<@Terkhen>the link I just posted explains what you need to do, step by step
12:58<team-pedro>ok thank you
12:58<@Terkhen>yw :P
12:58<@planetmaker>cornishpasty: as I have way too few info
12:58<@planetmaker>and the more basic the more difficult in general
12:58<cornishpasty>planetmaker: exactly :P
12:58<@planetmaker>your point?
12:59<cornishpasty>I was pretending to be team-pedro
12:59<@planetmaker>err.. yes. thank you
12:59<cornishpasty>Don't thank me, wtf?
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13:18<SpComb>start by going to myottd... oh wait, no, that was 2008
13:22<team-pedro>stilll cant work this out yet
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13:24<andythenorth>my two year old fails to understand the rules of a shunting puzzle
13:24<andythenorth>he just picks up thomas and puts him on another track :P
13:25<TrueBrain>not to his father, I assume? :D
13:25<team-pedro>andy maybe you can help, i would like to set up a server
13:25<andythenorth>shunting puzzle with wooden train is challenging, the magnets are polarised (obv) differently on each end of the wagon
13:25<@Terkhen>andythenorth: sounds like a fine solution to me
13:25<andythenorth>lateral thinking, literally
13:25<@Terkhen>team-pedro: as I said before, no one can help you if (s)he does not know your problem
13:25<@Terkhen>ask your questions directly
13:25<team-pedro>ok ok
13:25<@Terkhen>that's faster for everyone involved :)
13:26<team-pedro>to set a server to i have to change the target name?
13:26<andythenorth>screenshots can help if you're using a gui
13:26<@planetmaker>andythenorth: it's actually clever thinking of your 3-year old. He#s thinking out of the box. Something which adults have to learn again ;-)
13:26<@planetmaker>He well trancendents the problem ;-)
13:27<team-pedro>its a little confus on how to set the server up
13:27<andythenorth>planetmaker: good thinking yes, but he fails to win :P
13:28<@planetmaker>he does the OpenTTD-way of winning: "I set my own goal" :-)
13:28<andythenorth>does ottd have a shunting puzzle in it?
13:28<andythenorth>maybe it should :P
13:28<@planetmaker>I'm sure you can make one. After all you can make an ALU just with trains
13:29<andythenorth>also, should I play Dwarf Fortress? Every game I ask says 'no'
13:29<team-pedro>i would like to set a server for me and my bro, do i change the target name on my desktop?
13:29*planetmaker has not heard of it
13:29<@Terkhen>team-pedro: what's a target name?
13:29<team-pedro>"C:\Program Files\OpenTTD\openttd.exe"
13:30<team-pedro>then what do i change
13:30<@planetmaker>please just start openttd
13:30<@Terkhen>team-pedro: why do you prefer the dedicated solution to the non-dedicated one?
13:30<andythenorth>TrueBrain: you saw my comments wrt bananas above?
13:30<@planetmaker>and follow the steps on
13:30<@Terkhen>please use
13:31<team-pedro>me and my bro did the stuff on the start new mutliplayer game but couldnt find it on the list of other servers
13:32<@planetmaker>your router blocks it probably
13:32<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
13:32<team-pedro>do i have to find the router and change some settings in there then
13:32<@planetmaker>^^ your routers must support to forward these ports
13:33<team-pedro>ok ill have a look
13:33<@planetmaker>so you might need to change some setting there
13:34<TrueBrain>andythenorth: read, yes; but that is about it. It read like random mind-sparkles?
13:34<andythenorth>that yes
13:34<andythenorth>the filter stack I am serious about
13:34<andythenorth>all the tree stuff I find perplexing tbh
13:35<Nat_aS>Hey andy
13:35<andythenorth>filter stacks are pretty common, and we can probably do it with filter in place,
13:35<TrueBrain>no clue what you mean really, but please take all suggestions / ideas to the forum
13:35<TrueBrain>otherwise they might get lost
13:35<Nat_aS>if it were possible, would RVs that take up the whole road and can't be passed be a good idea?
13:35<andythenorth>you probably have a filter stack in Jira
13:36<Nat_aS>maybe RVs going the other way would pull over to let the larger truck pass.
13:36<andythenorth>if Eddi|zuHause gets his way, and every tile is a state machine, then yes, that would be nice
13:36<team-pedro>any idea where those settings would be?
13:37<@planetmaker>in your router...
13:37<Nat_aS>basicly make your dump trucks into mini trains
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13:38<team-pedro>ok so as long as it lts TCP and UDP it should work ok
13:39<frosch123>moin :)
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13:39<TrueBrain>andythenorth: I am designing a system at work, so my mind is not really at BaNaNaS, or at english for that matter :P
13:39<TrueBrain>just happy to be home atm :D
13:39<@Terkhen>hi frosch123
13:41<frosch123>hola terkhen :)
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r24343 /trunk/src/lang/ (german.txt polish.txt vietnamese.txt):
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: german - 1 changes by Jogio
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: polish - 36 changes by wojteks86
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: vietnamese - 3 changes by nglekhoi
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13:49<andythenorth>I just found my new favourite game
13:53<Nat_aS>that's not Dwarf fortress
13:53<andythenorth>isn't it?
13:53<Nat_aS>also requires IE4
13:53<Nat_aS>who uses IE
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13:55<andythenorth>most of the world
13:55<andythenorth>but not IE 4 :P
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13:58<@Alberth>hello Wolf01
13:59<Sacro>Nat_aS: my dwarfs all died :(
13:59<frosch123>hai albert :)
13:59*andythenorth might have to play this game
14:00<andythenorth>seems to be a direct metaphor for life
14:00<andythenorth>losing is winning
14:02<Wolf01>dwarfs fortres?
14:04<Nat_aS>CUrrently my fortress is being raided by kobalds
14:04<Nat_aS>and I still can't figure out the military UI
14:04<Wolf01>I hate that game, too much micro-management
14:05<Wolf01>I once had a similar game, way more simple, which I enjoyed very much
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14:07<@Alberth>theme-hospital? :)
14:08*andythenorth has been pondering inventing (stealing?) a new tycoon / sim game
14:08<andythenorth>Sid Meier's Railroads basically sucked according to reviews
14:08<andythenorth>and I cba to get tied into a commercial game
14:08<andythenorth>I considered buying Tropico
14:10<Wolf01>tropico is good
14:10<Wolf01>I have the first two
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14:12*andythenorth has ideas
14:12<andythenorth>first....stories :P
14:12<andythenorth>oh dear
14:14<ben1066>who here is knowledgable on the way OpenTTD does pathfinding?
14:15*Alberth thinks it's done by magic
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14:18<frosch123>yay, a "WITH!!!" in a topic title :)
14:18<ben1066>I wondered how it did it, trucks are the nearest to what im looking to do
14:18<ben1066>And Im guessing roads and tracks etc, are completely tile based?
14:19<frosch123>ottd is tile based
14:19<@Alberth>everything is tile based
14:19<frosch123>all pathfinders work on rail-ish tracks, also road vehicles and ships
14:19<frosch123>the pathfinders yapf and npf are A*
14:20<frosch123>there are various cost functions for different types of tiles
14:20<frosch123>depending on signal states, slope, curves,...
14:21<frosch123>[20:18] <frosch123> yay, a "WITH!!!" in a topic title :) <- he's from uk, so probably underaged: don't flame him! :)
14:21*andythenorth plots an ideal game
14:21<andythenorth>I liked the industry / business sim from railroad tycoon 3 (not the train bit)
14:22<ben1066>How fast is A* on an alright PC 3 years ago
14:22<andythenorth>take the construction / freeform fun from ottd (or minecraft, which I don't play but do look at on other people's screens sometimes)
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14:22<ben1066>how many routes could you solve/second or w/e
14:23<frosch123>the speed of pathfinders always depend on the problem to solve
14:23<@Alberth>ben1066: depends on your branching factor
14:23<andythenorth>take the 'nuke' option from lemmings :P
14:23<frosch123>generally troublesome is when there are many paths with almost equal cost
14:23<ben1066>WHats the most youd reasonably want to calculate a second
14:24*andythenorth thinks it would be fun to let players play as industry owners, and also as town mayors [dictators]
14:24<frosch123>it is said that at 2000 trains it starts to get quite slow
14:24<@Alberth>ben1066: beter ask the question the other way around, how many units do you need to move
14:24<frosch123>no idea, how many crossings are reached by 2000 trains per second
14:25<@Alberth>ben1066: it also depends on the programming language, and how you implement it
14:25<@Alberth>so any number is quite useless
14:25<@Alberth>instead just program it, and try it
14:26<@Alberth>but A* is mostly defacto standard for routing, so it will probably do good enough for you
14:27<ben1066>I guess
14:27<ben1066>I was just wondering if it was viable with units into the thousands really
14:28<frosch123>the number of units does not really matter
14:28<frosch123>it's the type of terrain
14:28<ben1066>Itd be 2d, with limitations
14:29<frosch123>and whether units share paths, or usually do not meet
14:29<ben1066>units cant collide
14:29<frosch123>i do not mean colissions
14:29<frosch123>i mean caching
14:29<ben1066>Itd be of limited use
14:30<ben1066>since their surroundings also change
14:30<frosch123>if one units finds a path, and others go the same, the pf can share them
14:30<andythenorth>can we have a nuke option?
14:30<ben1066>Hence the issue of speed, since their routes would need to be updated relatively often
14:30<andythenorth>basically call the 'crash' disaster on every vehicle you own
14:30<frosch123>ben1066: well, the assumption of A* is that the whole world is known
14:30<ben1066>Well it is
14:30<frosch123>if you have limited sight, you have to use other exploration algorithms
14:30<ben1066>It knows the whole world
14:30<ben1066>its just that it MAY change
14:32<@Alberth>you can use D*
14:32<Sacro>sigh, iudiots
14:32<Sacro>yes, i'm aware my address is reversed
14:32<frosch123>the map also changes in ottd :)
14:33<andythenorth>frosch123: I updated that vehicle weight post
14:33*andythenorth has another silly idea
14:33<andythenorth>'go north'
14:33<andythenorth>'there is a train on this tile'
14:33<@Alberth>andythenorth: we have a nuke option of the program afaik, some magic key combination crashes the program in debug mode
14:34<andythenorth>'go west'
14:34<andythenorth>'there are 3 trees on this tile'
14:34<frosch123>go north to meet andy?
14:34<frosch123>sounds reasonable
14:34<andythenorth>'go east'
14:34<andythenorth>'this tile is coast. I can see a sign on this tile'
14:34<andythenorth>'go south'
14:35<andythenorth>'there is a town here. Would you like to read the town stats?'
14:35<andythenorth>I bet we could do it, for easter
14:35<ben1066>sounds like..oh what's that olde game
14:35<andythenorth>we just walk the map array surely?
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14:51<@Alberth>but most tiles are highly uninteresting, with twisty passages into every direction
14:58<andythenorth>rain on my parade :P
14:58<andythenorth>allow people to modify the landscape :P
14:59<andythenorth>imagine building your transport empire, meanwhile there are lots of MUD players running around in a text adventure, modifying your landscape ;P
14:59<andythenorth>and some other players dictating industry orders and town growth
14:59<andythenorth>it would be insanely awesome
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15:02<andythenorth>would we make each tick wait until all players had made their turn?
15:03<@Alberth>nah, then people cannot stop playing and admire the trains passing by
15:04<andythenorth>they have to admire the trains via text description :P
15:04<andythenorth>we don't actually walk around the map in pictures :D
15:04<andythenorth>ho ho ho
15:05<andythenorth>we could do a flat rendering of the scene
15:05<andythenorth>using only – views
15:09<TrueBrain>andythenorth: your reply, I do understand :P
15:09<frosch123>the "[Blog]" tag is new, isn't it?
15:09<frosch123>quite fitting :)
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15:11*frosch123 likes andy's tl;dr
15:12<TrueBrain>frosch123: yes, I added it, as people thhought it was about IS :P
15:13<frosch123>haha :)
15:13<@Terkhen>now they'll think it is a blog about a developer coding IS :P
15:13<@Terkhen>it is not that easy to stop wishful thinking
15:14<TrueBrain>poor Terkhen
15:14<TrueBrain>does it keep you awake at night?
15:15<@Terkhen>me? no :P
15:15<andythenorth>nothing keeps me awake at night any more
15:15<@Terkhen>I barely play OpenTTD anymore so I don't think about new features
15:15<TrueBrain>Terkhen: pfew :D
15:15*andythenorth used to be awake a lot worrying one thing or another :P
15:16<andythenorth>now I eat my sleep like a person in a famine :P
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15:43<andythenorth>when are these being added to HEQS?
15:43*andythenorth ponders some newgrf work
15:47<@Alberth>when they have been built for real?
15:48<andythenorth>they haven't
15:49<@Belugas>ho... i see what __ln___ was referring... Nokia cutting 10000 jobs
15:49<@Belugas>bad bad
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16:09<FLHerne>Did the server get restarted or something?
16:10*FLHerne notices that his screen is full of green text suddenly :o
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16:14<@Terkhen>good night
16:16*FLHerne wonders why everyone is joining and/or leavin
16:16<FLHerne>good night, anyway :-)
16:16<andythenorth>frosch123: opinionions on BANDIT offsets?
16:16<andythenorth>I compiled it for you ;)
16:16<valhallasw>FLHerne: 'Did the server get restarted or something?' is pretty close
16:17<valhallasw>FLHerne: the connections between two irc servers was closed, which means the network was split in half
16:17<valhallasw>so you see 80 people leave, those 80 people saw you (among others) leave
16:19<frosch123>andythenorth: your readme has quite some default values :p
16:20<andythenorth>ho does it :)
16:20<andythenorth>I didn't look
16:20<frosch123>changelog is equally interesting :p
16:20<frosch123>you have no website?
16:21<andythenorth>apparently not :P
16:21<andythenorth>I'm at rev 551, but not very close to a release :P
16:21<andythenorth>I think I released FISH at r30 or something :P
16:21<frosch123>none of my grfs ever reached r551 :p
16:22<frosch123>are the tires blinking or is that a rolling animation?
16:23<andythenorth>they should be removed :P
16:23<andythenorth>I got distracted by offsets and such
16:23<andythenorth>the offsets are...a bit odd in corners
16:24<andythenorth>and very odd in depot view :)
16:24<frosch123>i think your vertical view is too low
16:25<frosch123>(trailer of dragon in north direction)
16:25<andythenorth>I should say - the articulated trucks: the sprites are 4/8, but the vehicle is 2/8
16:25<andythenorth>yes the vertical looks too low there
16:25<frosch123>same for south
16:26<frosch123>the other directions seem to fit for the dragon
16:26<frosch123>does the rest use the same offsets?
16:26<andythenorth>yes, templated
16:27<andythenorth>Grizzly / 352 are different length
16:27<andythenorth>so actually different template
16:27<andythenorth>you see cropping in depot?
16:29<frosch123>the grizzly looks also weird in horizontal and vertical direction
16:30<frosch123>applies to all vehicle lists and also the vehicle details
16:31<andythenorth>work for me then
16:31<andythenorth>thanks ;)
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16:33<frosch123>you're welcome :)
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16:58*andythenorth just made some trucks
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17:58<Wolf01>'night all
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22:14<m1n3cr4f7>new site to get premium minecraft upgrades, no info needed: supplies are limited so get yours now!
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23:10<aasmith>is there any disadvantage to always using a "full load" order vs regular?
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23:12<Rubidium>if you move passengers around not all stations generate the same amount of passengers, so the service interval depends on the slowest producer instead of the fastest
23:12<aasmith>i guess it extends the delivery time of the cargo? i.e. the time spent at the station is counted towards the total time?
23:12<aasmith>ahh, i see
23:12<Rubidium>furthermore, when an industry shuts down or reduces production full load can block mainlines
23:13<aasmith>because of a backload of trains waiting?
23:13<Rubidium>so load + a time to load (partly timetabled) probably works better
23:13<aasmith>i see
23:14<aasmith>so, if for anything but passengers, and using a suitable amount of yard to accomodate extra trains, "full load" should be ok?
23:15<Rubidium>also the delivery time might drop, but the load factor of the vehicle and total production is increased, so on total the slight loss in per-cargo-unit profit is outweighed by the improved per vehicle profit
23:15<Rubidium>and the larger amount of cargo that's transported
23:16<aasmith>yes, my original reason for using full load is to increase the production rate of said producer
23:16<Rubidium>full load doesn't necessarily increase the production of the producer
23:16<aasmith>i hadnt found much discussion of full load vs regular elsewhere.
23:17<Rubidium>it (usually) increases the station rating
23:17<Rubidium>and a higher station rating gives a higher chance of production increase
23:17<aasmith>sure, i am coupling that with having an empty train ready to move it right after
23:17<aasmith>so i think both of those factors should help?
23:17<Elukka>ideally you always have a minimum of two trains for an industry
23:17<Elukka>so that there is always one train loading
23:17<aasmith>Elukka: just started doing that in my new game today :)
23:17<Rubidium>but it's still possible to get a factory with bad rating get maximum production and a factory with perfect rating can still close
23:18<Elukka>when i see there isn't a train loading i add another one (or make existing ones longer if they're not my network's max length)
23:18<aasmith>good stuff
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---Logclosed Fri Jun 15 00:00:23 2012