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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-06-22

---Logopened Fri Jun 22 00:00:34 2012
00:27-!-roadt [~roadt@114.96.128.238] has joined #openttd
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02:06<@Terkhen>good morning
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02:25<Zaloo>good morning
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05:38<dihedral>hello
05:38<lugo>moin
05:38<@Terkhen>hi dihedral and lugo
05:38<dihedral>hey sir Terkhen
05:52-!-cyph3r [~Miranda@ip-213-220-193-139.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd
06:01-!-DDR [~chatzilla@d172-218-25-105.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work]
06:07-!-sla_ro|master [~slaco@78.96.213.97] has quit [Quit: DANGER sla.ro is OFFLINE DANGER]
06:13-!-drac_boy [~drac_boy@bas1-ottawa08-1176113041.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #openttd
06:13<drac_boy>hi
06:25-!-Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4d086630.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
06:27<@Terkhen>hi drac_boy
06:28-!-Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
06:29-!-Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd
06:29<drac_boy>how're you Terkhen?
06:46-!-drac_boy [~drac_boy@bas1-ottawa08-1176113041.dsl.bell.ca] has left #openttd [I'm done being in this room!]
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08:43<@Belugas>hello
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09:11-!-mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ
09:16-!-tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-60-138.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
09:31-!-Belugas [~belugas@216.191.111.230] has quit [Quit: On snow, everyone can follow your traces]
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09:43-!-mode/#openttd [+o Belugas] by ChanServ
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11:38-!-mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ
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---Logclosed Fri Jun 22 12:14:32 2012
---Logopened Fri Jun 22 12:14:38 2012
12:14-!-mikegrb [~michael@mikegrb.netop.oftc.net] has joined #openttd
12:14-!-Irssi: #openttd: Total of 119 nicks [7 ops, 0 halfops, 3 voices, 109 normal]
12:16-!-kais58 [~kais58@cpc2-cwma8-2-0-cust293.7-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd
12:17-!-Irssi: Join to #openttd was synced in 171 secs
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13:26-!-guru3_ [~guru3@stgt-4d02e60d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
13:28<@Alberth>hi hi
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13:29-!-Prof_Frink [~proffrink@94.13.8.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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13:30<telanus1>hi
13:30-!-telanus1 is now known as telanus
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13:38<Wolf01>'morning o/
13:39<Rubidium>Wolf01: darn it... it's afternoon!
13:39<Rubidium>more than leet o'clock as well
13:39<Wolf01>isn't it saturday morning?
13:39<Rubidium>in Aus maybe
13:40<Rubidium>in CHAST it's 6:25
13:40<telanus>it's almost 20:00 here
13:41<Wolf01>good, so I have more time to spend, this time I set wrong (on the right way) the time machine controls
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14:34-!-Dr_Tan is now known as Nat_aS
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15:22*Belugas wonders if interbase/firebird can do binary operations natively...
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15:22<@Alberth>kais58 can you please fix your connection?
15:23<@Alberth>it's not firefox, is it? :)
15:23<@Belugas>or we'll fix it for you >:)
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15:25<@Belugas>tic toc
15:25<@Belugas>tic toc
15:25<@Alberth>Belugas: perhaps you can try computing 1+1 on it :)
15:26<@Alberth>unless you have other binary operations in mind than I have :p
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15:26<@Belugas>will work for sure... problem : see if bit x is raised on column y
15:26<@Belugas>guess i have no choice but do some UDF functions
15:27*Alberth ponders about the magic div/mod formula
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15:32<@Alberth>(N div (2**y)) mod 2 != 0
15:32<@Alberth>oh, s/y/x/ :)
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15:33<@planetmaker>what's magic about that?
15:33<@planetmaker>oh, and good evening :-)
15:34<@Alberth>I had to think about it for 1 minute?
15:34<@Alberth>evenink planetmaker :)
15:34<@Alberth>so used to having & and << around :)
15:34<@planetmaker>:) And div certainly does not mean the (vector operator) divergence :-P
15:35<@Alberth>given that I didn't even know it existed, I doubt it :)
15:36<@Alberth>but if it helps in doing bit arithmetic, fine by me :)
15:36<@planetmaker>the divergence of a vector field gives you the amount of sinks or sources :-)
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15:37<@Alberth>oh, is it a bit fast if we apply it to a cargo stream?
15:39<@planetmaker>:-) Probably the divergence of an openttd cargo map is positive. More primaries than secondaries and tertiaries ;-) Fast... depends :-P
15:39<@Belugas>div and mod and note recognized by the sql server, bt i expecpted that
15:39<@Alberth> / and % instead ?
15:40<@Alberth>assuming it has the usual C / semantics :)
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15:56<@Alberth>@ban kais58 100000
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15:56<@Alberth>@ban add kais58 100000
15:56<@Alberth>bleh :(
15:58<Rubidium>just use /ban
16:00-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!*@cpc2-cwma8-2-0-cust293.7-3.cable.virginmedia.com] by Alberth
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17:04<Eddi|zuHause>so i guess tomorrow the headlines will be "greece drops out of euro" :p
17:06<FLHerne>why?
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17:31<@Terkhen>good night
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17:35<GT>Hi, who has edit-rights for http://wiki.openttd.org/Main_Page ? I requested for removing the link to the (now obsolete) 32bpp tars.
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17:40<Chris_Booth>not sure since my openttd account is broken
17:40<Chris_Booth>ask someone who has admin rights or who had voice
17:41<Chris_Booth>the is @/+ or gray/green
17:41<@planetmaker>Let me look, GT
17:41<@planetmaker>under
17:41<@planetmaker>'player ressources' you mean?
17:42<Chris_Booth>planetmaker: can you delete or reset my account chris_booth?
17:45<@planetmaker>maybe I can do that... but... what is a "broken account"?
17:47<GT>PM: yes, see the main page test page
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17:48<Chris_Booth>it will let me login on http://account.openttd.org/en
17:48<Chris_Booth>but will not let me use the wiki :S
17:48<Chris_Booth>unless I am wrong and I need a wiki account aswell pm
17:49<GT>I'm removing all links to tar files from innocent newbie info pages. I see an increasing amount of questions that tars don't work for 1.2, which is obviously correct, but reference to tars is now only needed for grf-devs that want to convert to newgrf.
17:51<@planetmaker>Chris_Booth: there's only one accout, which works the same on wiki, bugs, bananas, translators, etc
17:51<+glx>Chris_Booth: old unmerged account ?
17:51<GT>@PM, thanks, I knew we could cooperate some way or another.
17:52<@planetmaker>GT I didn't (yet) check the test page... is there other uncommitted stuff?
17:53<+glx>Chris_Booth: hmm maybe wiki login filters too much (wiki does weird things with special chars)
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17:53<@planetmaker>if it's an old, un-merged account, I'm not sure I can help it...
17:55<@planetmaker>I probably just kill my browser by requesting a list of all users registered with openttd...
17:56<+glx>haha
17:56<@planetmaker>"the script doesn't answer or takes too long to answer. Do you want to abort?" :-P
17:57<GT>@PM: no, don't think so, except the link to tars Get Graphics: http://jupix.info/openttd/gfxdev-nightlies/ (my nightly bundle) in http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=57926 but I already asked Jupix to remove that one
17:57<Chris_Booth>hhhm might just make a new account then
17:58<Chris_Booth>was my old bugs.openttd.org account
17:58<Chris_Booth>not got a clue how to merge and can't be bothered to look
17:58<Chris_Booth>if you want to kill it you can
17:58<Chris_Booth>or you will have a dead account
18:01<@planetmaker>I'm not sure I dare do that. It will need Truebrain too look at the account of chris_booth and see why it only works for bugs but not wiki
18:02<@planetmaker>is your hotmail address still valid, Chris?
18:03<Chris_Booth>yes chris underscore peter underscore booth at hotmail dot co dot uk
18:03<@planetmaker>just asking so that TB could notify you, if / when he looks at it
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18:05<Chris_Booth>ah cool just typing it that way to people can't C&P it
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18:06<TrueBrain>planetmaker: he can login to www but not to wiki?
18:06<@planetmaker>to bugs but not wiki.
18:06<TrueBrain>then there is no merging issue; most likely mediawiki just wants a ' ' (\s, space) for the _
18:06<TrueBrain>I tried to tell it not to, but it is stubborn
18:06<@planetmaker>and... he just left...
18:07<TrueBrain>internally mediawiki makes every space a _
18:07<TrueBrain>so I guess the reverse holds too
18:07<TrueBrain>my best guess ... if someone can login to any other of the 3 services, he merged his account
18:07<@planetmaker>likely assumption, yes
18:07<@planetmaker>ok
18:07<TrueBrain>(as a FYI :D)
18:08<@planetmaker>:-)
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18:17<GT>@PM, what's your opinion about my publishing of Ben Robbins landscape sprites on http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/32bpp/files? I did that to have some 32bpp graphics in newgrf format again so 1.2 users can have some 32bpp graphics again, and get the community active. You and I got into a discussion about jagged edges on ground sprites, but in the end we just succeeded in stalling everything. I think that we first need to have critical mass of newgrf
18:19<GT>I'm not the most patient person in the world, and just wanted to enforce some action in 32bpp again.
18:19<GT>I mean, 4 months have past, and Joe Average still can not have a decent amount of 32bpp graphics in 1.2
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18:22<GT>*past-passed*
18:27<@planetmaker>I've not seen any new arguments or someone looking at solutions wrt border cases. Nor did I have time myself to create such test cases or examples. Thus I can't add anything new to it
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18:32<@planetmaker>And I personally do not want to rush it without having made a sound decision without looking at the different options we have at the cases we should consider as setting bad first examples causes way too many headaches in the future
18:32<@planetmaker>newgrf specs are a good (or rather terrible) example there.
18:33<@planetmaker>despite that, GT, I think that Ben's tiles use the wrong sun direction
18:33<Wolf01>'night
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18:33<GT>Yeah, I remember that discussion too.
18:34<@planetmaker>which is no issue, if they exist as templates to be rendered with a proper light template
18:34<@planetmaker>s/templates/blender files/
18:34<GT>Original graphics are ambiguous
18:35<frosch123>hmm, is the 2 ton forklift from heqs or from ogfx+rv?
18:36<GT>For a good 32bpp base set, agreement on sun direction is important.
18:36<@planetmaker>it's HEQS
18:36<GT>And I absolutely agree that for some vehicles, the SE side is much too dark.
18:36<GT>or even the S-side
18:38<@planetmaker>GT: do not worry about re-rendering. I'm convinced that every model needs re-rendering before it is proper. Whatever light is used
18:38<@planetmaker>as they surely do not use a common light setup
18:39<GT>Absolutely true
18:39<@planetmaker>Thus using the pre-dominant and usually accepted 4:30 ... 5 pm sun high in the sky position would suit it well...
18:41<GT>Well, the predominant and usually accepted part may not be true in the 32bpp world, where the template-f is usually used.
18:42<NGC3982>:-o
18:42<GT>Which does not use that setup
18:44<@planetmaker>GT: there's no 32bpp set except ogfx-trains. And tbh, I still have the feeling that its light setup is too much Easterly and too little Southerly wrt shadows
18:45<@planetmaker>i.e. I still have the impression that it uses exactly Eastern sun, despite that Xotic tells me that the sun is not at 3 pm.
18:45<@planetmaker>(why is the sun at 3pm in the East :-O ?)
18:47<GT>So accepting the 4:30 ... 5 pm position would render a lot of currently availably graphics useless. And several artists creating the currently available graphs have gone inactive. So I understand your question, but it would set back the available graphics even further. Which would not be a problem if we had lots of artists active, but that is not the case. But you are right that agreement on the template/setup is important. So let's provide clarity for
18:49<@planetmaker>GT: "render a lot of currently availably graphics useless" and "I'm convinced that every model needs re-rendering before it is proper. Whatever light is used". Yes. But it's "just" a matter of rendering
18:49<@planetmaker>I provide free CPU for those who want. Xotic wrote all the scripts to make sprites from that
18:49<@planetmaker>so it's not lost work. Unless it's already lost due to missing models
18:49<NGC3982>evening gents.
18:50<@planetmaker>which is then no loss really
18:50<@planetmaker>well. it is. But one which happened way before OpenTTD 1.2.0
18:51<@planetmaker>GT: The DevZone has 2 cpu cores which can be used for rendering 24/7 in principle. Xotic makes use of them a lot currently, but there's space for more
18:52<GT>True, but not all models are available in all formats. E.g Ben uses a 3Dmax, which is a non-free program I don't have. And he is not very active lately, and his renders are heavily post-processed. So re-render is not obvious.
18:54<GT>But maybe the best way would be to just let go of everything that was available in tars, set very clear graphics standard for ogfx / nwgrf, and only accept high quality graphics. The tars were a nice prototype, but now we start the real work.
18:54<@Alberth>such a shame, people wasting their time on old and useless graphics
18:54<@planetmaker>GT: if you want to release those sprites as is as newgrf: it's a free world and I can't stop you and won't try
18:55<@planetmaker>and I do agree, they *are* nice ones.
18:55<@planetmaker>But with the mentioned light issues.
18:56<@planetmaker>Alberth: *might* be true. ogfx-trains imho has complete 32bpp as xotic made it basically from scratch. completely.
18:57<@planetmaker>but it does require a dedicated modeller / artist. And he also programmes it himself mostly
18:57<@planetmaker>thus it requires a very high degree of dedication. And knowledge of all the tools
18:58<@Alberth>yeah, I agree
18:58<@planetmaker>thus he knows and uses blender, ssh, hg, bash, python, nml, make, gcc
18:58<@planetmaker>few artists do :-)
18:59<@Alberth>but at the same time, imho that's the only way forward
18:59<@Alberth>you need to get sources which are free of license issues and easily re-generatble
19:00<@Alberth>however you see everybody messing around with the old graphics instead :(
19:00<@planetmaker>GT: one issue we have e.g. with ogfx-trains is also the 8bpp sprites. Especially of the newly generated stuff.
19:00<@Alberth>(as I predicted would happen)
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19:00<@planetmaker>But there we most likely will just use the 8bpp version as script-generated from those renders then
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19:01<@planetmaker>Alberth: I think that will change when we get ogfx-trains release-ready
19:01<@planetmaker>it's all crisp-new :-)
19:01<@planetmaker>all zoom levels in 32bpp
19:01<@Alberth>I hope so, but I'll have to see it happen first, I am afraid
19:02<@planetmaker>:-)
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19:02<@planetmaker>we now have 32bpp NewGRFs for 2.5 months. Creating graphics is time consuming. Judge it my April next year :-)
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19:03<@planetmaker>*by
19:05<GT>@Alberth: "such a shame, people wasting their time on old and useless graphics". I'm sorry you made that remark. People have spent a lot of time on creating them, and were not involved in making them useless. In fact, they were not even involved in the process, but put into a 'fait accomplit' when michi made his commit. Don't blame that on the ones that have no power in the process
19:06<@Alberth>I was refering to the people currently trying to use the graphics, instead of accepting it is not going to work
19:06<@Alberth>I was not refering to the creators
19:07<GT>Sorry, misunderstood you in that case.
19:07<GT>And indeed, I think all the guys using the Rubi script are wasting the time.
19:07<@Alberth>no problem
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19:11<@Alberth>the bad thing about it is that it sends out mixed messages, imho
19:12<GT>What would be your preferred way of moving forward. I have the feeling that several people, not excluding myself want 32bpp to be successful, but that miscommunication and unclear guidelines block progress
19:13<GT>Clarity might be the bomb
19:13<@planetmaker>GT: from my POV the best way is to take the lessons learnt, take some, single models, but forget about all sprites.
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19:14<@Alberth>in particular stop making them available to the public
19:14<@planetmaker>And then create the sprites from models for all ogfx+ NewGRFs (existing + yet to be created like tracks, bridges, stations, aircraft and ships)
19:14<@planetmaker>and to make those NewGRFs in their own right
19:15<@Alberth>make clear rules on new models that can be accepted (if it does not exist already)
19:15<@Alberth>I am not sure whether the edge problem can be post-poned, by optionally re-rendering if the wrong decision is made now
19:16<frosch123>oh, it's turing day
19:16<@planetmaker>GT: I actually do think that I should start putting the trains as 32bpp into OpenGFX itself. They're quite finished already
19:16<@Alberth>if so, just pick one way, and move forward
19:16<@planetmaker>Alberth: I don't think it should be postponed - even if it can. I think it rather cannot
19:16<@Alberth>planetmaker: ok, so what do we do?
19:17<@planetmaker>edge / test cases there are: building covering whole tile next to plain ground tile (like large depots). The building must not be overwritten by the ground tile.
19:18<@planetmaker>- bridge ramp on both slope and flat terrain must connect to road w/o glitch. Same with track pieces connecting
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19:18<@Alberth>so some testing needs to be done?
19:19<@Alberth>GT: the whole point is imho that it should be cheap to create sprites, that makes these sprite issues much less of a problem
19:19<@planetmaker>- flat terrain on foundations. The foundations probably should not be as jagged as a simple pixel-scaling for 2x and 4x results in
19:19<frosch123>Alberth: basically it needs a decision what looks worse :) glitches when combining extra-zoom with normal zoom sprites (e.g. from existing newgrfs), or weird tileborders forever :p
19:20<@planetmaker>^^
19:20*Alberth picks the former
19:20<GT>Imo the most important first thing is to set the lighting standard. The ground tile edges discussion is important too, but affects only the ground tiles. The lighting includes every sprite, including trains and other vehicles.
19:20<@planetmaker>frosch123: and a clear definition of what the tile border is in the first case
19:20<frosch123>though the weird tileborders are actually only noticeable when using the biggest zoom level, at which actually a lot of stuff looks weird, e.g. vehicle movement
19:21<@planetmaker>GT: "only" means about 50% of the base set
19:22<@planetmaker>as train, road, water, fields, industries, houses, bridges, stations, objects all have tiles :-)
19:22<@Alberth>so some testcases are needed I think to be able to judge it both ways (which should be easy if sprite generation is cheap enough)
19:23<GT>True. In my opinion combining existing newgrfs with extra zooms will never look good, so weird edges in that case are acceptable. But having all ground sprites, when not combining with old newgrf look weird is just silly.
19:23<@Alberth>In the long run, we are going to be more happy with straight borders, perhaps
19:23<GT>The true is about the 50 %
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19:24<GT>@Alberth, I agree
19:24<@planetmaker>possibly yes
19:24<@planetmaker>so we need a way to make that as glitch-free as possible
19:25<frosch123>which means testing different overlapping strategies :)
19:25<GT>rendering is also more difficult, as renderers would use a straight edge, and making them jagged would require postprocessing using some mask
19:25<@Alberth>GT: so perhaps examples of jagged borders with only new tiles too?
19:25<frosch123>GT: rendered groundtiles will always need postprocessing
19:26<frosch123>no rendered will be able to make the proper shape itself, esp. when antialiasing is involved
19:26<frosch123>so, it always needs cutting out from a bigger sprite
19:26<GT>You cannot AA groundtiles, they overlap, at least on 2 edges
19:26<frosch123>(which would also solve continuation issues with "high grass")
19:26<@planetmaker>every render probably needs some post-processing...
19:27<@planetmaker>cutting out from something bigger might actually be a good idea for ground
19:27<GT>High grass is another discussion, I agree that overlapping should not extend the jaggedness of borders
19:27<@planetmaker>so then it would need masks for ground tiles (whatever exact shape) - but does it hurt to have such masks?
19:28<GT>But Blender can render perfectly within a certain border
19:28<@planetmaker>GT: I was told that the result is bad, if you render sprite size. It's better to down-scale in the post-processing
19:28<@Alberth>then the mask simply does nothing
19:29<@planetmaker>I can only try to tell what xotic tries to teach me. But he showed me the difference and it does look considerably better to render bigger and post-process with scaling to sprite sizes
19:30<GT>Yes, but even when you do postprocessing, the result looks bad, e.g when combining a grass till with a pavement tile. It tried, and just does not look good.
19:30<GT>till=tile
19:30<frosch123>night
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19:30<@planetmaker>night, frosch123
19:30<GT>night
19:30<@Alberth>not fast enough :)
19:31<GT>he'll read tomorrow and be pleased about our kindness
19:31<@Alberth>:)
19:32<@planetmaker>:-)
19:32<@Alberth>I never read back #openttd after log in, I trust you guys behave while I am not here :p
19:33<@planetmaker>:-D It's nice to see people still have illusions and dreams ;-)
19:33<@Alberth>GT: so the best way to make a ground tile seems to be another issue that needs examples and discussion
19:35<@planetmaker>without wanting to end the discussion (it's been good), I'd like to put it off to another day. I got to get up in 6 hours...
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19:35<@planetmaker>so a good night from here, too :-)
19:35<@Alberth>good night planetmaker
19:35<GT>Night (fast enough now). We┬┤ll be in touch and thanks for the fruitful discussion, I enjoyed.
19:35<@Alberth>and from me too, good night
19:36<@planetmaker>yep, sleep well, you two
19:36<@Alberth>pm never leaves, so you never know whether he reads it or not :)
19:36<@planetmaker>:-D Not before Sunday evening
19:36<@Alberth>have a nice weekend then
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19:37<GT>He does not have illusions, so Im sure he'll read back
19:37<GT>bye
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---Logclosed Sat Jun 23 00:00:35 2012