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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-06-28

---Logopened Thu Jun 28 00:00:46 2012
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02:32<@Terkhen>good morning
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03:18<John_Snow>guys, where i can find guide how to use traffic lights ?
03:21<@Terkhen>if you mean train signals, try searching signals at the openttd wiki
03:22<@Terkhen>if you mean the traffic lights patch, no idea
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03:30<John_Snow>yes, tain signals
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09:49<Elukka>Eddi|zuHause: what's going on with CETS these days?
09:49<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: oberhümer did some graphics recently, but i have not had a chance to review his changes
09:50<Elukka>did you end up going 32bpp?
09:52<Elukka>i see there are some new sprites
09:53<Elukka>oberhümer certainly went with different colors to mine, i can't tell if it's just a different color choice or if they're 32bpp
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09:54<Elukka>i need to try to get some sprites done again
09:55<Elukka>i'd love a wider palette
09:56<Elukka>between my sprites and oberhümer's older and newer ones the shading and colors are sorta all over the place
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10:33<@Terkhen>hi Alberth
10:43<@Alberth>busy here :)
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10:51<@Belugas>same here
10:51<@Belugas>hello Alberth :)
10:52<@Alberth>hi sir B :)
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11:07<@Terkhen>I should be busy too but I'm not :P
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11:52<@Belugas>good afternoon :)
11:52<@Alberth>moin :)
11:57<@Belugas>good appetite!
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13:04<@Alberth>hi andy
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13:58<FLHerne>hello :-)
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14:21<andythenorth>quiet then
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15:24<CIA-4>OpenTTD: frosch * r24360 /trunk/src/newgrf_engine.cpp: -Fix [FS#5224]: Ship-specific 80+x variables were missing for unknown reason. (Hirundo)
15:30<andythenorth>bananas tells me people are doing something with the game though
15:31<andythenorth>why aren't they here complaining about something?
15:32*Alberth vaguely remembers mentioning a few fishy things
15:35<@Alberth>and also wishing a 10% or so speed-up of the boats when empty
15:35<Rubidium> <- replace kernel with OpenTTD and the subsystems with OpenTTD subsystems and it pretty much fits (except the conferences and such)
15:36<Rubidium>so... our coding style and reluctancy for accepting everything is just ISO 9001 ;)
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15:38<@Alberth>perfectly defined and repeatable :D
15:40<andythenorth>we should get ISO accreditation
15:42<@Terkhen>andythenorth: I complain about lack of autorefit :P
15:42<@Terkhen>if you are looking for complaints, that should help you
15:42<andythenorth>I complain about lack of v1.0 on CHIPS :P
15:42<andythenorth>not many tickets to go
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15:48<@Alberth>you can only display one type of cargo, I guess?
15:49<andythenorth>at least if I want to stay sane
15:49*Alberth wants a sane andy as well
15:49*andythenorth wonders what colour for bauxite
15:50<andythenorth>don't care about RL
15:50<andythenorth>just has to look different to clay and iron ore in game
15:50<@Alberth>red-ish comes to mind, but that's already used
15:50<Rubidium>red-ish is for me!
15:50<@Alberth>brownish is fine too
15:53<andythenorth>HEQS bauxite is kind of pink, same as copper ore
15:53<andythenorth>that will do I guess
15:55<@Alberth>seems useful if the ore does not change colour while loadingit into a vehicle :)
15:57*FLHerne insists on the ability to display multiple cargoes simultaneously :P
15:57<FLHerne>Sorry, wasn't paying attention earlier :-(
15:57*Alberth expects a patch from FLHerne shortly
15:58<andythenorth>FLHerne: which one goes on top?
15:59<FLHerne>I have a station serving Coal/Ore/Bauxite/Clay/Sand/Stone - autorefit is awesome :D
15:59<FLHerne>There should be a profusion of piles in myriad colours :-)
16:00*FLHerne remembers that English Lang is no longer important :D
16:00<FLHerne>Oh, it has oil too. That can't be piled up in the same way though :P
16:02<frosch123>use barrels
16:02<frosch123>they help in making a pile of oil
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16:03<frosch123> <- something like that
16:04<frosch123> <- except that oil is dealt with more carefully :p
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16:05<DDR>frosch123: Beats what the american military did with their waste... 'um... ammo! Let's make burny ammo with it!'
16:05<frosch123>yeah, it has a high density, useful for ammo
16:06<DDR>Also, radioactive. Not useful for anyone near it.
16:06<DDR>Most immediately the enemy, but also the people shooting it... and the people who have to live with it after the shooting stops. :(
16:06<frosch123>if it's proper u238, the radioactivity will likely not hurt you
16:07<frosch123>u238 does not have enough radiation
16:07<DDR>Not in small amounts, but especially in Iraq people shoot lots of stuff.
16:07<Rubidium>yay... someone who doesn't know much about radioactivity ;)
16:08<frosch123>me? :)
16:08<Rubidium>frosch123: 9
16:08<DDR>Plus, when it burns (that's why it's armour-piercing) it sort of emits little chemically-inert radioactive droplets.
16:08<DDR>Apparently, they're small enough to fit through the pores of your skin. O_o
16:09<andythenorth>@seen Yexo
16:09<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: Yexo was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 2 days, 1 hour, 10 minutes, and 14 seconds ago: <Yexo> are you sure one has arrived this month?
16:09<frosch123>DDR: skin? who cares about skin, if you can inhale them?
16:10<DDR>And, as further proof God has a sense of humour, your body deposits all of the radioactive material it can in the balls. I need those, so I think I'll stay away from shooting burning radioactive waste.
16:10<frosch123>oh, is that a reason to send womans into the field?
16:12<frosch123>DDR: anyway, i am quite sure that u238 does not hurt you due to radioactivity, but because it is heavy metal
16:12<DDR>frosch123: Nup, it's radioactive. Not very, but quite enough.
16:12*FLHerne looks back up the channel
16:12<DDR>Either way, it's not something you should be just scattering around a populated area.
16:12<frosch123>it's actually the least radioactive thing of all radioactives
16:12<Rubidium>DDR: the half-life of U238 is about the 4.5 bilion years, releasing an alpha particle that is stopped by something like a sheet of paper
16:13<FLHerne>Impressive off-topic wandering :D
16:13<Rubidium>so picking up U238 with gloves is basically perfectly safe
16:13<DDR>Yes, but you're not doing so... you're breathing it in, because you burnt it up a little while back, remember?
16:14<FLHerne>Except the risk of the US military shooting you for stealing their ammo? :P
16:14<andythenorth>is u238 a valid cargo for FIRS?
16:15<Rubidium>also, the reason why depleted uranium is used in armour piercing has nothing to do with it's radioactivity, just with its density
16:16<Rubidium>and... interestingly enough to shield radioactive materials since it's much denser (70%), thus shields beta/gamma radiation significantly better
16:16<Rubidium>(per cm)
16:17<FLHerne>Presumably osmium would be too brittle and/or rare?
16:17<frosch123>oh, did not know that application
16:17<Rubidium>even then, uranium oxide is more likely to kill you (due to toxity) than the radiation (but that's just minor details as dead's dead')
16:18<@Alberth>andythenorth: I hope it is not
16:19<frosch123>andythenorth: you want to write a chemistry based industry set?
16:19<andythenorth>I was bad at chemistry
16:19<andythenorth>valency and crap :P
16:19<FLHerne>Can we have nuclear power stations in FIRS?
16:20<DDR>The reason it's used is because it's a hell of a lot cheaper than magnesium (or was that sodium... tungsten? I dunno. Some silly-expensive metal like that...) and the US military had a bunch of uranium on it's hands.
16:20<DDR>It was a confluence of wants...
16:20<FLHerne>Then there'd be a use for pairs of outdated Class 20s dragging short rakes of odd-looking wagons about :D
16:20<DDR>They wanted to get rid of their nuclear waste, and the munitions industry wanted something less expensive to make their bullets out of.
16:21<andythenorth>they'd trigger lots of 'this vehicle is making no money' warnings :P
16:21*Alberth wanders off to more interesting things
16:21<frosch123>DDR: u238 has just more than 10 times the densitry of magnesium
16:21<@Alberth>andythenorth: you don't need to give it fuel at all :p
16:22<andythenorth>Alberth: what's more interesting? :o
16:22<andythenorth>than this ^ ?
16:22<FLHerne>Make the payment rates very high, to compensate for minimal quantities :P
16:22<frosch123>DDR: and every heavy metal is more toxic than uranium is radioactive
16:22<frosch123>so your arguments are increasingly pointless
16:22<DDR>frosch123: It doesn't matter too much whether it's dense, it's whether it's hot that counts more.
16:23<frosch123>then you should use caesium or iod
16:23<frosch123>not uranium
16:23<DDR>What did they use before uranium?
16:23<FLHerne>Add uranium-processing plants, too, and nuclear waste repositories :-)
16:23<@Alberth>andythenorth:, 2016-06-08.sav
16:24<DDR>frosch123: The more I talk, the more it seems that diplomacy is the better option.
16:24<DDR>(Or simply not using armour-piercing rounds.)
16:24<Rubidium>did you actually know there is two times more rubidium (production: < 10 tonnes/year) in the ground than copper (production 16 million tonnes/year)?
16:25<FLHerne>Is it near-impossible to extract, or have they just not found a use for it yet? (or both)
16:25<frosch123>Rubidium: in what depth?
16:26<Rubidium>frosch123: the rubidium can be found basically anywhere, just barely anywhere with minable quantities. Those that mine it, mine it as by product
16:27<frosch123>ah, one of those
16:27<Rubidium>so rubidium is 100 ppm, silver is 0.070 ppm, gold is 0.0011 ppm
16:28<frosch123>that's for the whole earth?
16:29<frosch123>wiki says different numbers for the surface-near part
16:29<Rubidium>uhm, earth's crust ;)
16:29<frosch123>29 ppm rb, 0,005 ppm au
16:29<frosch123>0,12 ppm ag
16:30<frosch123>47000 ppm fe :)
16:31<frosch123>258000 ppm si
16:31<Rubidium>still, doesn't make much difference
16:31<Rubidium>relatively at least
16:31<frosch123>494000 ppm o
16:32<Rubidium>DDR: before uranium they probably didn't have a need for armour piercing rounds of that strength
16:32<DDR>I'm pretty sure they did.
16:32<DDR>We've never been short of stuff we want to shoot through, but can't. ;)
16:33<frosch123>i guess lead is most common
16:33<Rubidium>previously the idea was bigger is better
16:34<frosch123>likely lead is even more dangerous than uranium
16:34<Rubidium>and precision kinda sucked
16:34<DDR>I've got lead in my basement.
16:34<frosch123>i would think that that lead is easier washed away by water
16:34<DDR>It's pretty much OK, as long as you don't eat it... it is sweet-flavoured, though.
16:34<DDR>So I've always wanted to try some.
16:35<Rubidium>DDR: so lead is safe if you don't ingest/inhale it and uranium is unsafe when you ingest/inhale it
16:35<Rubidium>that doesn't quite mean one is safer than the other
16:36<DDR>Well, it's hard to inhale lead, it being rather solid and all.
16:36<DDR>I mean, you can make a fairly safe water pipe out of it...
16:36<DDR>but when you use it to season your wine, it's kinda poisonous.
16:36<frosch123>poiling point of lead is 2000K, uranium has 4000K
16:36<DDR>So the romans found out.
16:37<DDR>But the burning point is what makes it piercing.
16:37<frosch123>a uranium water pipe is likely a lot better than a lead water pipe
16:37<DDR>It doesn't matter *what* the boiling point is...
16:37<DDR>frosch123: You're off your rocker.
16:37<DDR>You'd be getting irradiated water versus normal water, pretty much.
16:38<DDR>Lead doesn't poision stuff by being around it. It's a metal. It mostly just sits there.
16:38<frosch123>well, that way my point all the time
16:38<frosch123>both lead and uranium are toxic because they are heavy metals
16:39<frosch123>and the radiation of u238 is neglibe compared to the toxicness
16:39<DDR>Uranium is toxic primarily because it's fucking radioactive. The fact that it's a heavy metal is just an added anti-bonus.
16:39<frosch123>and lead does exactly that: it poisons by just sitting around
16:39<DDR>So does Uranium, to a much greater degree.
16:39<DDR>Like, I can eat quite a lot of lead before it kills me.
16:40<frosch123>DDR: uranium is barely radioactive
16:40<DDR>But I don't have to eat so much uranium.
16:40<DDR>Not the natural ore, but I we're going in to this with depleted uranium, so it's still pretty radioactive.
16:41<Rubidium>DDR: "Of ingested inorganic lead, about 15% is absorbed, but this percentage is higher in children, pregnant women, and people with deficiencies of calcium, zinc, or iron"
16:41<DDR>Not only that, but at the point the uranium has been used -- it's transformed into tiny inert particles the body can't get rid of.
16:41<Rubidium>so, you adsorb 15 times more lead than uranium when ingesting it!
16:42<DDR>Hunh, I didn't know that.
16:42<Rubidium>furthermore, uranium is barely radioactive
16:42<DDR>Not after you enrich it.
16:42<frosch123>it's depleted
16:42<Rubidium>DDR: Radium is over one million times as radioactive as the same mass of uranium
16:42<Sacro>and how does that compare to Rubidium
16:42<DDR>It's still quite radioactive, it's not depleted all the way.
16:43<Rubidium>DDR: fun fact: my highschool teacher taught us that radium was in the walls
16:44<DDR>Ever been to radium hot springs? It's a town around here... they get a fair buildup of natural radioactive gas in places.
16:44<Rubidium>DDR: no, still... radium is a million times more radioactive than uranium
16:44<DDR>To the point it's actually a bit of a problem, in places.
16:44<Rubidium>so if the hot springs are safe, then uranium is even safer
16:45<andythenorth>radium or radon?
16:45<DDR>Yes, but again, we're not shooting uranium-the-rock.
16:45<DDR>we're shooting uranium-the-metal-which-was-just-inside-a-nuclear-reactor.
16:45<DDR>It's not depleted all the way, just out of useful reacting life I think.
16:45<DDR>andythenorth: radon.
16:46<andythenorth>loads of that in the uk
16:47<DDR>frosch123: To clear something up, just because it's depleted doesn't mean it's not dangerously radioactive.
16:49<Rubidium>DDR: to have the same radioactivity (geigercounter) you need:
16:49<DDR>andythenorth: iirc, on the first day of the american invasion of iraq, ambient airborne radiation in Britan spiked something like fourfold.
16:50<Rubidium>@calc 4.468*1000*1000*1000*365/3.8235
16:50<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 426525434811.0
16:50<Rubidium>roughly that many times more Uranium atoms than Radon (gas) atoms
16:50<DDR>Rubidium: ?
16:50<FLHerne>DDR: But was it at significant levels anyway?
16:51<andythenorth>radon is a killer in the uk
16:51<DDR>I can't remember. :/
16:51<FLHerne>May be useful
16:52<DDR>FLHerne: I think it was still pretty much safe.
16:53<DDR>But, since that was almost undoubtedly coming from Iraq, I'd think that the radioactivity in-country would be much greater.
16:54<frosch123>DDR: depleted uranium has less u235 and u234 than natural uranium, which results in depleted uranium having 60% of the radioactivity of natural uranium
16:54<DDR>Hunh. I'd think it would still be as radioactive as the nuclear facility it came out of.
16:55<frosch123>actually, this is kind of obvious... if it would have higher radiation than natural uranium, then it would be prefered for enrichtment over natural
16:55<DDR>Hm, I guess so.
16:55<Rubidium>DDR: the radioactivity isn't in the uranium, bit in the crap coming from uranium after fission
16:56<DDR>Ah. Knew I was missing something...
16:56<DDR>I didn't take good notes, this conversation just sort of happened. :P
16:56<andythenorth>CHIPS has 6666 downloads
16:57<andythenorth>is that bad? or irrelevant?
16:57<CornishPasty>1 more and it will be IRC!
16:58<DDR>oo, chips... chips is good...
16:59*CornishPasty steals DDR's chips
16:59<DDR>*falls to his knees* Why?
16:59<andythenorth>ach, no bundles server :P
17:02<FLHerne>Is it possible for an industry to start producing an extra cargo after a certain date?
17:02<andythenorth>yes, but it's confusing
17:02<andythenorth>it will cause bug reports
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17:04<FLHerne>Then you could have waste collection centres producing household waste, and then later recyclables as well
17:05<FLHerne>Add power stations, and recycling depots could produce biomass. Also coal to powerstations
17:08<DDR>That'd be neat...
17:08*Wolf01 silently goes to bed
17:08<Rubidium>night Wolf01
17:08<Wolf01>'night all
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17:09<@Terkhen>good night
17:09<Rubidium>night Terkhen
17:10<FLHerne>andythenorth: Did you raise farm production? It seems higher than before
17:12<andythenorth>can't remember
17:13<andythenorth>I added randomisation, that will give higher initial values for farms in some cases
17:13<FLHerne>I have an uninfluenced Arable Farm producing 126 tonnes/month... :D
17:13<FLHerne>Good for profit :-)
17:14<FLHerne>Before it would be 16, if I remember...
17:14<andythenorth>plausible too
17:16<andythenorth>good night
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17:16<FLHerne>Aargh, late
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---Logclosed Fri Jun 29 00:00:49 2012