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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-06-29

---Logopened Fri Jun 29 00:00:49 2012
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03:43<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 252/14
03:43<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 18
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03:52<@Alberth>DorpsGek should refuse to do such simple calculations :p
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04:01<Eddi|zuHause>and "simple" is?
04:10<@Alberth>I was wondering about that too. No doubt someone has created a classification of that already for eg schools, but how to find that?
04:11<Hirundo>"To get the latest version (v1.3) you will have to sign up at SimuScape and then go to THIS POST on the SimuScape site."<- wtf
04:13<@Alberth>sounds like spam :p
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04:26<Eddi|zuHause>Hirundo: we've had a very lengthy discussion on the german forum with OzTrans (and partially SAC) about the sense or nonsense of forced registering at simuscape
04:41<@planetmaker>it might even stretch the meaning of 'discussion'
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04:50<@Alberth>moin planetmaker
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05:02<@planetmaker>hello :-)
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10:17<Beul>Good afternoon
10:19<Beul>is there anybody in here that could give me some help with NML?
10:21<Rubidium>I reckon there is, if you can come up with a specific question regarding NML
10:22<Rubidium>mostly because quite a few people know bits of it and only a few know everything
10:23*Rubidium is off enjoying the rest of his morning ;)
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10:38<@Alberth>ho/ andy
10:38<andythenorth>ho hey
10:40<Beul>i think it should be rather simple :p, I am trying to run NML from a different directory than is is installed, but I keep getting the is not recognised error
10:40<@Alberth>I am using an old chips now, apparently
10:41<andythenorth>use the bananas
10:41<@Alberth>how exactly do you try to run NML ?
10:42<@Alberth>andythenorth: I am in the middle of a game (although, 2016 now iirc)
10:42<@Alberth>Will update for the next game
10:42<andythenorth>you can't update a running game?
10:42*andythenorth does it all the time
10:42<andythenorth>absolutely no problems, we should allow everyone to do it :P
10:42<@Alberth>I probably can, but don't really want to
10:43<andythenorth>it has side effects
10:43<@Alberth>(16:49:35) Alberth: how exactly do you try to run NML ? <- Beul: In case you missed it, I asked a counter question
10:43<andythenorth>like industries breaking graphics, cargos
10:43<andythenorth>or trains having invalid length
10:43<andythenorth>or stations that no longer have track bits
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10:43<andythenorth>or strings that change and crash ottd
10:43<Beul>yeah, sorry, I was at the door for a package
10:43<andythenorth>but hey, why not allow everyone to do it?
10:43<Beul>just a sec
10:44<@Alberth>but then I can no longer see your nice CHIPS platforms!
10:44<@Alberth>Beul: no problem, just making sure you noticed
10:44<@Alberth>irc conversations are not that fast :)
10:45<@Alberth>andythenorth: people complain :(
10:45<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: we do allow everyone to do it :)
10:46<Beul>I have added the Path to NML directory to my path enviroment variable, and now I am trying to run this command: nmlc -c --grf mygrf.grf mygrf.nml
10:46<Eddi|zuHause>Beul: did you restart your cmd-window after changing the path?
10:47<Beul>not shure, will try
10:47<Eddi|zuHause>(assuming windows)
10:47<andythenorth>Beul: what OS?
10:47<Beul>windows 7
10:48<andythenorth>hmm, sorry, can't help :|
10:48<Beul>-_- i did not restart CMD
10:48<Beul>tnx for the help
10:49<Beul>works fine now
10:49<Eddi|zuHause>i've had that problem many times :)
10:51<Beul>yeah, but I have been using windows for 18 years now, so restarting after changeing something should have been the first thing I tried :p
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11:28<frosch123>what's the difference between tt-ms and tt-forums? :)
11:29<Rubidium_>The language?
11:29<Rubidium_>The owner?
11:29<frosch123>on tt-ms the simuscape topic is hillarious
11:30<frosch123>they all fail with registering, and now try to help each other wrt. where they get stuck
11:31<frosch123>calling each other stupid for not knowing something and then giving a wrong answer and such...
11:31<Rubidium_>So an undecypherable captcha, that keep people definitely out
11:32<Rubidium_>And search emgines
11:34<Rubidium_>So the only thing people will find are the dead /scraped threads on other forums
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11:38<CIA-4>OpenTTD: frosch * r24361 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix [FS#5227] (r22926): Apparently ext. A1 did not work at all. (Hirundo)
11:40<Beul>I have got another question, what property do I have to assign to a rail type in order to allow all train types to run on it? (like the yard tracks in the dutch trackset)
11:42<frosch123>you have to set properties of the other railtypes to be compatible with your one
11:42<frosch123>i guess check the dutch trackset, or nuts
11:43<frosch123>hmm, though iirc nuts has no public source code...
11:43<frosch123>so go for the dutch thingie :)
11:43<Beul>tnx, will have a loo
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11:49<Beul>might be a stupid question, but what is the syntax to decompile a grf written in NML
11:50<frosch123>you cannot decompile into nml
11:50<frosch123> <- but you can just look at the gpl-ed source
11:51<Beul>sometimes the solution is to simple for me to recognise
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12:14<NGC3982>can it ever be possible to create a decompiler for grfs written in nml?
12:18<Achilleshiel>decompilers are nasty, because it is not in clean code
12:19<NGC3982>i see.
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12:43<Beul>can I set the track over/underlay to RAILTYPE_NORMAL like you would do with sations and terrain?
12:44<Beul>I only want to replace the tunnel and bridge sprites
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12:51<Beul>nvm, I firured it out allready
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13:32*peter1138 bops along to the Yes album
13:33<andythenorth>lo peter1138
13:33<andythenorth>life! life is here!
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13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: translators * r24362 /trunk/src/lang/ (brazilian_portuguese.txt japanese.txt):
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: japanese - 4 changes by TzakShrike
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 87 changes by Tucalipe
13:47<andythenorth>Alberth: can you recall your FISH suggestions?
13:47<andythenorth>FISH goes well with CHIPS :P
13:47*andythenorth wants to "1.0" another grf
13:50<andythenorth>if I 1.0 all my grfs, can I stop hanging out here and get a new hobby? :D
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13:51*Belugas floats in space with Enigma
13:52*andythenorth floats a toddler in the bath
13:52<andythenorth>mostly he sinks actually
13:52*Wolf01 floats in sweat .
13:53<andythenorth>a nice image ;)
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13:53<Elukka>32bpp in cets y/n
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>Oberhümer seems to have implemented that
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>i can't tell whether it works
13:53*andythenorth ponders rewriting FISH in nml. But then compiling would be slow :|
13:54<Elukka>i thought the new sprites looked kinda 32bpp
13:54<Elukka>do we still need 8bpp sprites for stuff?
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>yes, there're 32bpp and 8bpp versions for all files
13:54<Elukka>do we actually need a real sprite that's not a green box for 8bpp versions?
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13:55<Eddi|zuHause>i guess it can be converted automatically, but i have only seen 8bpp->32bpp conversion scripts
13:55<andythenorth>how do I fix this?
13:55<andythenorth>the only solution I can think of is to make it cheap to destroy water
13:55<andythenorth>which is an unwanted effect
13:55<Elukka>i could pretty easily make 32bpp versions of my existing sprites, just give them more accurate and better looking colors and stuff
13:56<Elukka>like the compartment coaches there
13:57<@Alberth>andythenorth: amazing what turns up when you search logs :)
13:57<@Belugas>andythenorth bath time!
13:57<@Belugas>daddy daddy
13:57<@Belugas>blup blup
13:57<andythenorth>bath time!
13:58<andythenorth>so auto-refit seems popular for FISH
13:58<andythenorth>that requires an nml rewrite
13:58<andythenorth>because I cba to work out the nfo
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13:58<@Alberth>imho it makes sense for ships
13:58<Afdal>Can someone tell me why I can't see signs anymore
13:58<Afdal>Is there a new option somewhere that turns it off by default
13:58<@Alberth>you have disabled them?
13:58<Afdal>other companies' signs that is
13:59<Afdal>and their station names apparently
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13:59<Afdal>We can see our own signs but noone else's
14:00<@Alberth>there is an option in the option drop-down (3rd one from the left)
14:00<@Alberth>'competitor signs and names displayed'
14:01<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: honestly, you need to talk to Oberhümer. i have no clue how 32bpp works or looks ingame
14:01<Elukka>i think we're gonna need a new template for colors if we're doing 32bpp, and some other artistic standards too
14:01*andythenorth ponders
14:02<Elukka>my boxcar doesn't play ball with oberhümer's, visually, and his baggage car has much harsher shading than any other car in the game
14:02<andythenorth>ships are probably just one python class. Sub-classing might be overkill.
14:02<Elukka>i can adjust to his style, we just need to work out a common standard
14:02<@Alberth>andythenorth: ?
14:02<andythenorth>Alberth: planning a py-nml conversion of FISH
14:03<andythenorth>wondering if I can parse the current nfo to get all the stats :P
14:03<andythenorth>maybe the current nfo could be the config file :P
14:03<@Alberth>oh, I read it the other way around, but nml is working and nfo is not :p
14:04<Elukka>Eddi|zuHause: in my mind one of the big advantages with 32bpp is that it's really easy and quick to do color and contrast adjustments and such, say, to make two sprites with incompatible coloring work well together
14:04<Elukka>just a little playing with sliders in photoshop
14:04<andythenorth>Elukka: meh :)
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>again. talking to the wrong person.
14:04<andythenorth>32bpp is...not real TTD :P
14:05<Elukka>true, eddi, i'm just rambling :P
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>me making the template green boxes was already quite a stretch of my abilities
14:05<andythenorth>imho TTD is already too realistic, and could do with looking a bit more like Worms / Lemmings / Double Dragon / R-Type etc
14:05<Elukka>32bpp doesn't necessitate realism
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: make the GRF :)
14:05<Elukka>it's just a wider palette
14:06<Elukka>the sprites i'm making still try to fit into the existing game world
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14:06<@Alberth>Elukka: but there are so few non-realistic newgrfs :(
14:06<Elukka>i think FIRS looks pretty realistic :P
14:07<@Belugas>waht? where? how???
14:07<@Alberth>too many colours in 8bpp already :p
14:07<Elukka>oh no, the r-word summoned belugas D:
14:08<Afdal>Thanks Alberth
14:08<andythenorth>definitely R Type, minus the monsters:
14:09<andythenorth>definitely R Type, minus the monsters:
14:09<andythenorth>definitely R Type, minus the monsters:
14:09<andythenorth>definitely R Type, minus the monsters:
14:09<andythenorth>that would rock
14:09<andythenorth>stupid Google images URLs :P
14:09*Belugas likes to keep the folklor alive ;)
14:10<andythenorth>I remember why I wasn't working on FISH
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: was there a movie about that in the nineties?
14:10<andythenorth>I'm officially sulking about smoke for ships
14:11<andythenorth>fuck it, let's just patch the damn thing
14:11<andythenorth>I don't mind poking at it
14:12<andythenorth>I'll write bad patches, you'll code review them until they're better
14:12<+michi_cc>andythenorth: Is there proper concept yet? AFAIR we had multiple different proposals.
14:12<andythenorth>there's a lack of problem spec I think
14:12<andythenorth>I prefer it when a dev just decides "this is neat"
14:13<@peter1138>I get up, and nothing gets me down
14:13<@peter1138>And I know, baby just how you feel
14:13<@peter1138>You gotta rollll with the punches and get to what's real
14:13<+michi_cc>I can code something, but maybe you'll still sulk because it still doesn't do what you want :)
14:14<andythenorth>how to solve that?
14:14<@peter1138>Might as well jump (Jump!)
14:14<+michi_cc>By providing a proper poblem description.
14:14<@peter1138>< awesome guitar solo >
14:15<andythenorth>michi_cc: the FS specs the problem, I could expand that... ;)
14:15<andythenorth>I need:
14:15<andythenorth>- n effect vehicles
14:15<andythenorth>- arbitrary x / y / z positions
14:16<andythenorth>- ideally I would have animation control to control smoke timing per vehicle, but not essential
14:16<andythenorth>- ideally I would be able to use animation control to specify smoke generation, independent of current acceleration algorithm used
14:16<andythenorth>I don't need:
14:17<andythenorth>- the ability to create new effect vehicles
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14:17<andythenorth>- the ability to control what happens within the effect vehicle
14:17<andythenorth>(i.e. they're fire and forget as far as I'm concerned)
14:18<andythenorth>the two points above about animation control collapse to the same point I think
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14:22<+michi_cc>Okay, right now there's a property that allows to specify a single, game supplied effect position along the vehicle axis which may be overridden by a callback that is not periodically called.
14:24*FLHerne wonders if BaNaNaS stands for anything
14:25<FLHerne>What, then? :P
14:25<andythenorth>michi_cc: the encoding of positions for new effect vehicles seems quite simple, I could probably patch that
14:25<+michi_cc>Maybe you should actually read :p
14:26<Beul>ok, still struggeling... Is there a way to enalbe trains to drive on my new rail type other than adding my rail to the compatible/powered list of other rail types?
14:26<FLHerne>Ah. Missed that :-( . Thanks :D
14:26<andythenorth>the spec for how to control effect vehicle generation baffles me :)
14:27<+michi_cc>You can change the traction type of the vehicle, but changing the compatible/powered lists is indeed the way to go (there's a reason those list are cumulative over multiple definitions).
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14:34<andythenorth>michi_cc: I considered periodic cb for smoke control. But seems also desirable to handle events like 'change of rail type', 'arrived at station' etc
14:34<andythenorth>and possibly might need vars to check 'number of existing smoke vehicles' or such, although that might be very undesirable
14:35<+michi_cc>So basically the same principle as already present for animation with its triggers.
14:39<@peter1138>$ vim
14:39<@peter1138>-bash: vim: command not found
14:39<@peter1138>$ nano
14:39<@peter1138>-bash: nano: command not found
14:39<@peter1138>$ edlin
14:39<@peter1138>File name must be specified
14:39<@peter1138>this is going to go well
14:39<Beul>michi_cc, maybe you could help me out here: I want to create a new rail type, but I want trains for other rail types to be able to drive in my new rail. How can i achieve that?
14:40<Sacro>peter1138: sed?
14:41<+michi_cc>By adding you rail type to the powered/compatible lists of other types.
14:42<andythenorth>peter1138: 'edit' ? I had that on a system somewhere once :P
14:42<Beul>so, the other rail type grf's need to be altered to allow their trains to drive on my rails?
14:43<@Alberth>peter1138: vi ?
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14:44<andythenorth>michi_cc: ideally the return value for an effect cb would be able to support newgrf effect vehicles in future
14:45<andythenorth>without actually supporting them now :P
14:45<andythenorth>that way the whole newgrf-effect-vehicles-must-be-specced shenanigan can be sidestepped
14:45<+michi_cc>Beul: No, for each other rail type you provide an addition to the compatible lists in your grf.
14:46<+michi_cc>Exactly like stated on
14:47<Beul>thanks for the link, looked all over the wiki but did not find that page
14:48<FLHerne>Ooh, CHIPS 1.0 :-)
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15:05*andythenorth ponders cargo routing mechanics
15:05<andythenorth>could we have plugins for 'cargo dispatching'
15:05<andythenorth>choose one mechanic from those installed - per cargo (or route?)
15:06<andythenorth>'shortest', 'fastest', 'any' etc
15:07<andythenorth>(in a YACD/dist environment)
15:07<@Alberth>sure you can
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15:07<@Alberth>it is mostly a matter of weighting
15:08<@Alberth>although I am not sure you'd want to have cargo piles taken into account when routing
15:08<andythenorth>I think that's overkill
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15:09<@Alberth>could be, but eg cdist does it to balance lines
15:09<@Alberth>on the other hand, you can also consider it to be a player challenge
15:10<@Alberth>but that also implies some form of controlling the flow I guess
15:17<andythenorth>I figure that it's sufficient to have:
15:17<andythenorth>- rules for loading / unloading cargo to vehicles
15:17<andythenorth>- methods to assign weightings to nodes
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15:19<@Alberth>I was wondering whether an dijkstra-like algorithm could be run as part of a slow process, eg the tile loop
15:20<@Alberth>so you move routing calculations to the background
15:20<andythenorth>last time I thought about it, I couldn't see any reason to run them very frequently
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15:21<@Alberth>only when the player messes with his orders :p
15:21<andythenorth>if the rule for loading/unloading cargo to a vehicle is based only on node weightings....that doesn't need D or A* or whatever
15:21<andythenorth>if the player messes with orders, the cargo just stays on the station
15:21<andythenorth>waiting for a valid vehicle to arrive
15:22<andythenorth>removing a *node* might need recalculation?
15:22<@Alberth>D or A* are just alternatives to computing a routing (specific from some start to some destination)
15:22<@Alberth>yeah, or partial invalidation or so
15:23<andythenorth>it would be interesting to know how long it took to calculate routes for a large number of source-destination pairs
15:23<@Alberth>the big mess are pax and mail probably, with many sources and many destinations
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15:24<andythenorth>ah, I remember
15:24<@Alberth>dijkstra computes all from one starting point (by iteratively taking the nearest one to the connected set)
15:24<andythenorth>source-destination pairs aren't needed
15:24<andythenorth>cargo-destination pairs are needed
15:25<andythenorth>iirc there's simply a reverse dijkstra (etc) that does what is needed
15:25<andythenorth>my knowledge is limited to a few wikipedia pages though :P
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15:28<@Alberth>hmm, compute how to get to each industry that accepts cargo thus
15:28<@Alberth>(if you leave out pax)
15:29*andythenorth looks for maths
15:30<andythenorth>these were my thoughts from a few weeks ago
15:30<andythenorth>for any cargo-destination pair, if there are cached weightings, the route only needs computing when the network topology changes
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15:31<andythenorth>however I think my network topology was based on vehicle orders, which might change often...?
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15:39<@Alberth>I mostly change the number of vehicles, and/or buoys
15:40<@Alberth>in your cargo destination graph, you can merge the graphs, I think
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15:41<@Alberth>ie consider the industry the starting point, and all stations in its catchment area are connected
15:41<andythenorth>if they're not connected graphs how does that work?
15:41*andythenorth might have it figured actually
15:42<@Alberth>it's the same when I build 1 station in the catchment area, and then build 2 branches in different directions
15:43<@Alberth>the only change is that there is no cargo ever traveling over the last hop, but the routing does not care :p
15:43<andythenorth>it seems so simple
15:43*andythenorth wonders why it wouldn't work
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15:44<@Alberth>it also nicely handles cases where 2 branches meet again somewhere halfway in the map
15:46<@Alberth>I am somewhat wondering whether to keep several directions or not at such meet-points
15:47<@Alberth>as it gives you abilities to balance cargoes
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: YACD has weighting like this already implemented (for passengers). on creation, passengers choose a mode (fast/cheap/...) and then do routing based on this
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>no player involvement
15:47<andythenorth>Alberth: so assuming I understand the issue, that's how I ended up at plugins :P
15:48<andythenorth>allowing player to choose
15:48<@Alberth>plugins are the user-access, but you also need information for the plugins
15:49<@Alberth>ie if all stations just point in one direction, you cannot balance anything
15:49<andythenorth>a meet point is near-identical to this case?
15:49<andythenorth>two equally valid routes?
15:49<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: so the cargo packet stores a preference?
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15:49<andythenorth>how interesting
15:50<@Alberth>or even non-equally valid, if you take cargo amounts into account eg
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15:55<andythenorth>ships are way easier to code than trucks
15:57<@Belugas>yeah... no wheels... that helps!
15:57<andythenorth>no trailers
15:57<andythenorth>no tractive effort, no vehicle weight
15:57<andythenorth>no horsepower
15:57<andythenorth>no length
15:59<@Alberth>equal speed when loaded or unloaded :(
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>and next thing you know you complain about not having multi-bay ships, realistic acceleration (including smoke emission) and improved bounding boxes for ships
16:01<andythenorth>who said easy was good :P
16:01<andythenorth>Alberth: I'll do the speed adjusting thing
16:01<andythenorth>maybe by the time I've done the nml conversion, there'll be a smoke patch to test
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>is there such a thing as "unloaded" ships?
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>modern ships couldn't move without cargo, they have ballast water and stuff
16:02<@Alberth>yeah, fish ships are higher in the water when unloaded
16:02<andythenorth>I wonder if they go faster or slower when in ballast
16:02<andythenorth>or the same speed
16:02<andythenorth>it's probably an economic decision
16:03<@Alberth>between "couldn't move without and move with ballast"? faster :)
16:03<andythenorth>less weight, so physics suggests faster?
16:03<andythenorth>with various assumptions :P
16:04<@Alberth>andythenorth: with refit changes are much higher that the ship is always loaded :)
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>they might accelerate faster, and have less water resistance, but they're also less stable
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>it's difficult to refit a log-raft
16:05<andythenorth>you can refit between WOOD and TWOD iirc :P
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>although you might want to carry supplies on the way back
16:05<andythenorth>oh dear
16:05<andythenorth>you just gave me ideas :(
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16:05<andythenorth>oh that's horrible :P
16:05<andythenorth>the log tug could be changed to be a general tug
16:05<andythenorth>with a capacity of say 4t
16:06<andythenorth>but the option to refit to 400t of anything that can be towed :P
16:06<@Alberth>nice :)
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>PS: TWOD was never a real cargo, only a stray label
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16:07<andythenorth>so I see
16:08<andythenorth>I'll remove it
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>no need to specifically remove it
16:09<@Alberth>good night
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16:10<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I'm recoding anyway, might as well ditch cruft ;)
16:20<NGC3982>does wagon removal start with the first or the last wagons?
16:21<NGC3982>i cant get to the wiki for some reason
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>i vaguely remember from the start, but that's a little undefined behaviour
16:31<NGC3982>ah, i see.
16:36<@Terkhen>good night
16:39<andythenorth>bye Terkhen
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16:58<andythenorth>good night
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17:09<Elukka>open ottd, click online content, click update, everything is up to date
17:09<Elukka>so much love
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17:28<Wolf01>'night all
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17:30<Djohaal>latest render from the poop machine!
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18:17<Zuu>Elukka: Someone got to make a patch that add a CLI arg to OpenTTD that schedules "update everything" to happen just after the external content have been scanned. Combine that with an updater and you will always run last nightly + last bananas content :-)
18:18*Zuu -> bed
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---Logclosed Sat Jun 30 00:00:50 2012