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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-07-01

---Logopened Sun Jul 01 00:00:51 2012
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03:22*andythenorth ponders doing trucks as a railtype
03:30<andythenorth>oh dear
03:30*andythenorth is now considering it seriously
03:30<andythenorth>can I haz new train pathfinder please?
03:30<andythenorth>it will require a 'proceed on sight of clear path ahead'
03:30<Supercheese>45 degree turns with trucks would indeed be verrrry cool
03:31<andythenorth>i.e. reserving a path for the next n clear tiles, n to be modulated by stopping distance
03:31<andythenorth>I am thinking mining trucks
03:31<andythenorth>using rail would allow them to be properly large
03:32<andythenorth>it would be annoying however to have to build signals on every tile, hence new pathfinder
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04:10<TomyLobo>how do i remove a newgrf from a save?
04:16<@planetmaker>there is no way
04:16<@planetmaker>start a new game
04:16<TomyLobo>[23:58:49] <Beul> andythenorth, removing a newgrf that ads a new rail type causes some interesting behavour but not even that managed to crash the game:p
04:16<@planetmaker>removing NewGRFs usually leaves the savegame in a broken state
04:17<TomyLobo>well i dont want to play it with that newgrf anyway
04:17<TomyLobo>(that newgrf killed passenger cars)
04:18<@planetmaker>When you enable the newgrf_developer setting you can do that indeed. But ... don't, if you are not developing newgrfs
04:18<andythenorth>TomyLobo it's just the way it works
04:18<andythenorth>nobody likes it this way, but we are where we are ;)
04:18<TomyLobo>planetmaker i am prepared to shoot myself in the foot, dont worry :)
04:19<@planetmaker>TomyLobo: as soon as you enable developer tools your support is void. Don't come asking and wondering about crashes, oddities or strange behaviour
04:20<TomyLobo>i realize that
04:20<@planetmaker>and, btw, don't expect oddities to show immediately in your game then. It might even only show after several game years or so
04:20<@planetmaker>as such: one tempered savegame has lost warranty forever
04:21<TomyLobo>hrm, it didnt bring back the passenger cars
04:21<TomyLobo>it was worth the try :)
04:21<@planetmaker>I could have told you ;-)
04:21<@planetmaker>you cannot bring back vehicles by removing newgrfs ;-)
04:22<TomyLobo>any other idea? :)
04:22<@planetmaker>start a new game?
04:23<TomyLobo>they expired thanks to that newgrf
04:23<@planetmaker>choose your newgrfs carefully before starting a game
04:23<TomyLobo>the newgrf doesnt list an introduction date, or i would just set it to that and see what happens
04:23<andythenorth>try reset_engines in console
04:23<@planetmaker>check briefly ingame whether you got everything. Quit, modify newgrf list and test again. Until you find a combination which works for you
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04:24<andythenorth>TomyLobo: this issue is known to suck
04:25<@planetmaker>indeed quite so
04:25<andythenorth>issues come up like 'play for 70 years, then discover that there's no vehicles to transport cargo x'
04:25<andythenorth>or such
04:25*andythenorth favours recommended combinations of known-good grfs
04:25<andythenorth>which might come with new banaaananaas
04:26<TomyLobo>8/32bpp Trains 2CC is that newgrf
04:26*andythenorth goes back to converting FISH to nml
04:27<TomyLobo>reset_engines worked, thanks :)
04:28<andythenorth>converting to nml is....interesting
04:28*andythenorth ponders scraping the nfo for current values
04:29<andythenorth>what would be nice is....
04:29<andythenorth>...a tool that could take a grf, and output a csv of all the vehicle action 0 properties
04:29<andythenorth>this would, incidentally be useful for other things
04:30<andythenorth>for example, bundles server could run it to provide a manifest of vehicles in a grf automatically
04:30<andythenorth>as could bananas
04:30<@Alberth>there is an nfo parser in the nml issue tracker :p
04:30<@Alberth>moin andy, pm
04:30<andythenorth>JSON might be better than csv
04:30<@Alberth>a wiki with useful combinations perhaps?
04:31<andythenorth>xml would fit with my xml-driven grf framework
04:31*Alberth has been doing xml processing for 2 days :p
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04:33<Rubidium>oh, come on... why XML?
04:33<Rubidium>use SGML. Much more versatile
04:35<@Alberth>I know, I have the annotated standard here, and have even read most of it
04:36<@Alberth>but standard Python does not come with sgml
04:36*andythenorth uses xml because that's what the templater uses :P
04:36<andythenorth>it may sound like insanity, but the data is not xml
04:36<andythenorth>but the template code is
04:36<andythenorth>what larks
04:39<@Alberth>php conquerored the world with it, so it gets copied everywhere, no matter how conceptually broken it is :)
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04:41<andythenorth>using xml-valid templating languages means that html dev tools don't explode
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04:42<@planetmaker>andythenorth: you know grf2html? "a tool that could take a grf, and output a csv of all the vehicle action 0 properties"
04:42<@planetmaker>hello Alberth
04:43<@planetmaker>and all others :-)
04:47<andythenorth>planetmaker: good point. maybe it could output json
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04:51<andythenorth>I suppose you people like your buy menu sprites in the right place
04:52*andythenorth grumbles and invents new properties :P
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04:54<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r24364 /trunk/src/lang/slovak.txt: -Fix-ish: Slovak compilation failure
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04:56<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r24365 /trunk/ ( config.lib): -Fix-ish: add C(XX)FLAGS_BUILD to all the executables that are compiled for the build enviroment
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05:13<andythenorth>why do offsets differ between nml and nfo? :P
05:14<andythenorth>the x offs seems to be different by about 30pz
05:14<@Alberth>hi LordAro
05:14<andythenorth>px *
05:16<andythenorth>it's the buy menu string leading spacing missing; nothing to see here :P
05:19<LordAro>i been doing some codings:
05:19<LordAro>trouble is, it doesn't work :)
05:23<@Alberth>that is the usual trouble with code :)
05:25<LordAro>i know where it is failing (this->filename seems to be valid _only_ when the file download is in progress) but i can't see anything else to use...
05:25<LordAro>help? :)
05:25<andythenorth>offsetting text by n pixels in newgrf <- deprecated?
05:26<andythenorth>use NBSP instead, and expect font size issues?
05:31<andythenorth>Ammler / planetmaker I can't push as I have .pyc files in my repo, any suggestions?
05:32<@planetmaker>andythenorth: intention or error?
05:32<andythenorth>I don't know how it happened, they are in my ignore file
05:32<andythenorth>I've used hg forget
05:32<@planetmaker>I'll temporarily disable the commit hook
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05:34<@planetmaker>try again, andythenorth
05:34<andythenorth>done thanks
05:35<@planetmaker>I'll re-enable it. Or is it not useful (due to needing manual intervention)?
05:36<@Terkhen>good morning
05:36<andythenorth>I think it's useful
05:36<@planetmaker>hello Terkhen
05:36<@planetmaker>ok, re-enabled
05:36<andythenorth>I'm not sure, but I think putting compiled python bytecode on the server might be a possible attack vector
05:36<andythenorth>lo Terkhen
05:38<andythenorth>FISH auto-refit creeps a bit closer
05:38<Ammler>hmm, why didn't you remove the pyc files instead force-push it?
05:38<Ammler>also, you can have a custom ini file in your repo to allow it
05:41<@Terkhen>nice :D
05:42<andythenorth>how do I remove the .pyc from an older rev? Except by doing dangerous things with strip?
05:43<Ammler>why should strip be dangerous?
05:43<Ammler>or convert
05:44<Ammler>it can't be that old revs as it is in the newer revs you push
05:44<andythenorth>removing revs further down the tree seems dangerous to me
05:44<andythenorth>I'd sooner diff all changes, delete my local repo and clone new
05:45<Ammler>now, it is too late, you have already a "broken" repo on the server :-)
05:47<TomyLobo>Ammler i have no idea what andythenorth's situation is, but you do know "git log -g", right?
05:47<andythenorth>I'd have to install git for that :P
05:47<TomyLobo>oh, hg?
05:48<TomyLobo>if you're using mercurial, then you're probably fucked, yeah
05:48<andythenorth>I like mercurial, but I should probably learn git :P
05:48<andythenorth>I don't like svn much, but I've yet to break a repo with it
05:48<andythenorth>whereas I regularly break hg repos
05:50<TomyLobo>yeah breaking svn *repos*, no
05:50<TomyLobo>working copies? uh.... once a week?
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06:28<@Alberth>you should explain your tools not to touch stuff in .svn directories :p
06:30<@Alberth>wouldn't it be an idea if nml projects used a unique prefix for their language files? Having several "english.lng" files in one download directory causes chaos :(
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06:55<@Alberth>two andys, now you can work twice as fast!
06:55<andythenorth>oh dear
06:56<TomyLobo>Alberth you mean tortoisesvn? :P
06:58<@Alberth>TomyLobo: you use a graphical frontend for svn, yet know about log -g which is not even in the short help of git log???
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06:58<TomyLobo>the svn command line client sucks
06:58<@Alberth>try the git command-line :p
06:58<TomyLobo>all graphical frontends for git suck
06:59<@Alberth>they do for every VCS
06:59<TomyLobo>that should explain my preferences :)
06:59<TomyLobo>oh, tsvn is ok
06:59<TomyLobo>makes SVN's problems somewhat bearable
07:01<@Alberth>I have no problems with svn, just need to be a bit careful with directory shuffling, and branch-updating
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07:03<TomyLobo>SVN is slow, it has a confusing way to make branches and tags, you cannot commit locally with most clients
07:03<TomyLobo>and many times, the SVN working base's size even exceeds a git repo's size
07:09<TrueBrain>did he just say SVN is slower than git? Lolz.. that is just a lie :D (sorry, didn't read anything else, that just made me giggle)
07:09<@Alberth>how is cp semantics confusing?
07:09<@Alberth>and w.r.t. clients, blame the clients, not svn
07:09<TomyLobo>TrueBrain some guy made benchmarks, lemme find the link
07:10<TrueBrain>do a random git clone, and do a random svn checkout ... you will know which one is the slow one :P
07:10<TrueBrain>hint: it is not subversion :D
07:10<TrueBrain>"some guy", now the trustworthy links come :D
07:10<TomyLobo>TrueBrain you do realize that git clone fetches the entire history (by default)?
07:10<TrueBrain>so ....... how does that matter from a user perspective?
07:11<TomyLobo>you can diff and blame locally
07:11<TrueBrain>that indeed is a good reason why svn is slower
07:11<TomyLobo>switch branches locally, retrieve logs locally
07:12<@Alberth>make two svn working copies
07:12<TrueBrain>if that is your measurement of 'slow', than you are very good in comparing apples with oranges
07:12<TrueBrain>concratz to that :)
07:12<TrueBrain>like saying Wordpad is slower than Netbeans :)
07:12<TomyLobo>TrueBrain how about oranges and oranges then... git is also faster than hg on most operations
07:12<TrueBrain>"on most", except the checkout and commit operations
07:13<TrueBrain>which are, in my opinion, the most important onces
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07:13<TrueBrain>but that is acomplete different story .. SVn was the topic
07:13<TomyLobo>no, it's really only slower on a huge commit
07:13<TomyLobo>add, not commit
07:13<TomyLobo>think hundreds of files
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07:14<TomyLobo>meh the page with git vs hg comparison vanished
07:14<TomyLobo>now it's only comparison with svn :/
07:14<TrueBrain>its easy to now start comparing Netbeans to Eclipse, but you were comparing it with Wordpad, so ..
07:14<@Alberth>haha, yeah, that looks like an objective document :D
07:15<TrueBrain>so your source that SVN is slow, is on a git-specific website?
07:15<TrueBrain>impressive choice ...
07:15<TomyLobo>well, you pick one that proves your opinion
07:15<TrueBrain>open any CLI, do a svn checkout of OpenTTD, do a git checkout of OpenTTD
07:15<TomyLobo>the one that proved mine was apparently popular with the git people and is now hosted by them
07:15<TrueBrain>take a stopwatch if you like
07:16<TomyLobo>TrueBrain you mean it has both svn and git?
07:16<TrueBrain>just read what you are saying .. a page saying Git is better is popular with git people ... owh realy? :P
07:16<TomyLobo>or are you talking about git-svn?
07:16<TrueBrain>OpenTTD has SVN, git and hg
07:16<TomyLobo>and not some kind of gateway?
07:17<TrueBrain>I doubt gateways as such exists, as that would be highly impossible/unlikely
07:17<TomyLobo>github has an svn gateway
07:17<TrueBrain>at best you can import svn commits into a git repos
07:18<TrueBrain>which is not really a gateway in any sense
07:18<TomyLobo>take a look at git-svn
07:18<TomyLobo>it works both ways
07:18<TrueBrain>git-svn is an IMPORT script
07:18<TrueBrain>(and export, but meh)
07:18<TomyLobo>no, that'd be git-svnimport :D
07:18<TrueBrain>I suggest you read up how git-svn works
07:18<Beul>* andythenorth ponders doing trucks as a railtype
07:18<Beul><andythenorth> oh dear
07:18<Beul>* andythenorth is now considering it seriously
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07:18<Beul>great idea
07:19<TomyLobo>TrueBrain i could suggest you the same
07:19<TrueBrain>you could;but I already know
07:19<Beul>as I discovered yesterday, you can make some pretty awsome features with new rail types!
07:20<TomyLobo>git-svn marks the imported commits so it can reassociate them with the svn repo. it can push new commits easily that way
07:20<+michi_cc>TrueBrain: git-svn is a perfectly good two-way interface. How do you think my commits arrive at the SVN server?
07:21<TrueBrain>michi_cc: well aware; but a two-way interface !== a gateway :)
07:21<TrueBrain>git-svn is a import/export tool, automated, hooked into git (pretty neat btw)
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07:22<TrueBrain>a gateway would suggest I can also do a svn checkout of a git repos
07:23<TomyLobo>you can check out svn repos with git-svn
07:23<TrueBrain>and now read what I said, and you see there is a miss-match
07:23<TomyLobo>and you can check out git repos on github with svn
07:23<TrueBrain>hence, not a gateway :)
07:23<TomyLobo> i think
07:24<+michi_cc>And as for the speed, your mileage will always vary, but checkout/clone is the most unimportant command to measure. I'm not doing a clone every five minutes, but I am using status/log/diff/etc, and for everything that does not operate on the very latest revision, svn is principally slower.
07:24<TrueBrain>michi_cc: heavily depends on usage, and many many many other constraints
07:25<TrueBrain>much more important: it is silly to compare apples with oranges
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07:25<TrueBrain>michi_cc: as it is not SVN that is slow. It is the design that demands other conditions
07:26<TrueBrain>it is like saying Wordpad is slower than Netbeans, because in Netbeans you can open files easier
07:26<TomyLobo>the design is from another time
07:26<TrueBrain>it makes little sense
07:27<+michi_cc>Of course, it is mostly the network that is slow, but from the end-user perspective only the result counts.
07:27<TrueBrain>michi_cc: get a 100/100 :P
07:27<@Alberth>Beul: amazing cablecars newgrf!
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07:28<TomyLobo>the only 2 conditions i'd see that svn fulfills better than git are 1. faster checkout 2. tight access control to the repo
07:28<TrueBrain>euh ... you forget one very important one:
07:28<@Alberth>eh, svn is fatser on checkout now?
07:28<TomyLobo>that's part of 2.
07:28<TrueBrain>it is the reason why you compare oranges with apples ..
07:28<TrueBrain>it has nothing to do with access
07:28<TomyLobo>Alberth if the repo is large enough, yes
07:29<TomyLobo>on small repos, git is faster again :P
07:29<TrueBrain>decentralized vs centralized are two very different methods of solving this "VCS" issue
07:29<andythenorth>so how does this FISH thing work? :P
07:29<@Alberth>TomyLobo: small repos are non-interesting, as it is fast enough either way
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07:29<andythenorth>seems that some ships can refit PAX and mail only
07:29<TomyLobo>Alberth yeah, hence i only mentioned the large ones
07:29<andythenorth>others refit all cargos, or freight only
07:30<andythenorth>what larks
07:30*andythenorth wonders how many CMS properties are needed to handle this
07:30<andythenorth>one or two
07:31<TomyLobo>ok, tsvn took 21s to check out a shallow copy
07:31*andythenorth wonders what the FISH rewrite should do about smoke
07:31<TomyLobo>fatal: dumb http transport does not support --depth
07:31<TomyLobo>do you have ssh-based git too?
07:32<TomyLobo>or maybe git://
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07:32<TrueBrain>have you tried it?
07:33<@planetmaker>you're completely re-writing fish and heqs, andythenorth?
07:33<Beul>Alberth: tnx :)
07:33<andythenorth>planetmaker: converting FISH to nml
07:33<TomyLobo>actually, no
07:33<andythenorth>ideally with no loss of features :P
07:33<andythenorth>due to mistakes :)
07:33<TomyLobo>currently making a full clone
07:33<TomyLobo>and yeah, that takes some time
07:33<@planetmaker>nice, andythenorth :-)
07:34<andythenorth>I'll do HEQS later, but it will be a v2, with new features
07:34<TomyLobo>not surprising with a repo containing tens of thousands of revisions
07:34<TomyLobo>and of course the binary files
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07:34<TomyLobo>git doesn't delta-compress binary files (yet)
07:34<Beul>Alberth, actualy, the new tunnel grf that I coded could (unintentionally) also add cablecars:p
07:35<TomyLobo>TrueBrain that took like 5 seconds :D
07:35<TomyLobo>git clone git:// openttd-git-shallow --depth 1
07:35<andythenorth>so I should do mining trucks as trains?
07:35<@Alberth>Beul: those unintentional side effects are usually giving the best result :)
07:35<TomyLobo>it's as useless as an SVN checkout though
07:36<Beul>Well, they gave me the idea for that grf indeed, but ideally I would like to be able to disable them in the tunnel grf
07:36<TomyLobo>mind if i push the full repo to github and see if i can clone it from there faster?
07:36<Beul>Would that be posible currently?
07:37<@Alberth>TomyLobo: I'd be surprised if it is not already there somewhere
07:37<TomyLobo>pushing? sure... but syncing it probably not
07:37<TomyLobo>Alberth likely an old version though
07:37<TrueBrain>have you checked?
07:37<TrueBrain>so easy to widely guess stuff .. but opening the page would give you an aswer immediatly
07:37<TrueBrain>and you will know your assumption was wrong :P
07:38<@Terkhen>andythenorth: I don't think so, I like to be able to run them on normal roads for short distances
07:38<@Alberth>Beul: no idea, I don't speak newgrf at all :)
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07:38<andythenorth>I could make them enormous though :)
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07:39<TrueBrain>s/wrong/wrong or not/, hmm, parts fell off
07:39<TrueBrain>I think faster than I type! Where is the fucking bionic interface :(
07:40<@Alberth>we wouldn't be able to process that amount of information ;)
07:40<TrueBrain>don't brains only work at like 100 bits per second or something silly?
07:40<andythenorth>I think they go faster, but consciousness lags
07:40<TomyLobo>but highly parallel :)
07:41<TrueBrain>new excuse: "sorry, but my concious was lagging"
07:41<Beul>TrueBrain, I think faster than I can do anything, I want a bionic interface to build real stuff, do engeneering calculations, type and make real nice gaphics
07:41<TomyLobo>pushing the entire repo to github tooki hear reality has nice graphics
07:42<TomyLobo>i hear reality has nice graphics, but the user interface sucks
07:42<Beul>getting a bit out of hand here
07:43<andythenorth>what happens if I set action 0 capacity to 0? No refits?
07:43<TomyLobo>pushing the entire repo to github took about 3.5 minutes
07:47<TomyLobo>git clone openttd-git-github - 2:24 until i get my prompt back
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07:48<Beul>on a more ttD related note: is there anybody that knows if is is posible to disable certain new railtype objects from construction?
07:49<Beul>for example constructing track
07:49*andythenorth has nml feature suggestion
07:49*Beul railises it sounds quite stupid to prevent track construction in a new tail type
07:50<TomyLobo>apparently the git protocol is faster for shallow copies
07:50<andythenorth>'is_refittable' is a stupid property for ships; nml should set it automatically if refittable classes exist
07:50<TomyLobo>quite a bit even
07:51<TomyLobo>28s ssh, 13s git://
07:51<Beul>andythenorth, good point imo
07:53<TomyLobo>1:10 until i get my prompt back after "git clone git:// openttd-git-github-gitproto"
07:54*andythenorth wtfs at setting refitted capacity in nml
07:54<Xaroth>TomyLobo: get a faster pc?
07:54<TomyLobo>Xaroth it's reasonably fast
07:55-!-glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:d51b:9803:c151:c43a] has joined #openttd
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07:55<TomyLobo>the repo is huge
07:55<Xaroth>define 'reasonably' ...
07:55<Xaroth>my grandmother is reasonably fast
07:55<andythenorth>in cb36, nfo var 47 maps to 'cargo_classes_in_consist'
07:55<andythenorth>for the record ^
07:55<TomyLobo>pheonom ii x4 3.2 ghz
07:56<andythenorth>in case anyone else was playing 'guess the var name' with the nml spec
07:56<TomyLobo>pheonom ii x4 955 3.2 ghz
07:56<TomyLobo>no ssd
07:56<Xaroth>you're missing the point
07:56<andythenorth>I'm rarely waiting on my vcs
07:56<andythenorth>and if I do, it's thinking time
07:56<TomyLobo>Xaroth what else do you want to know?
07:56<Xaroth>your definition of reasonably.
07:57<TomyLobo>it plays all the games i want to play
07:57*andythenorth runs into the 'wtf is the correct weight of mail, goods etc'
07:57<TomyLobo>it doesnt usually lag on everyday work
07:57<andythenorth>anybody care to make bids
07:57<TomyLobo>what else?
07:58<@Alberth>andythenorth: mail is about the same as paper
07:58<TomyLobo>except if someone's mailing rocks
07:59<@Alberth>goods are lighter (mostly just air)
07:59<TomyLobo>or uranium
07:59<andythenorth>Alberth: :)
07:59<andythenorth>so which of the game's inconsistent uses of mail / goods weight should I be consistent with?
07:59<TomyLobo>dear mother, here is the uranium block i promised to mail you. love, your son
07:59<andythenorth>currently this ship carries 52t freight, or 52 bags mail
07:59<@Alberth>andythenorth: the first one that comes to mind
07:59<Beul>Alberth, i beg to differ, as paper wil usualy be stacked much more compact, thus making it heavier
08:00<andythenorth>1 mailbag = 1t in that case
08:00<Beul>than mail
08:00<andythenorth>brb - food
08:00<@Alberth>heavy mailbags :)
08:00<@Alberth>Beul: some people are sending uranium over the mail :p
08:00<@Alberth>but in general, I agree :)
08:02<TomyLobo>1:22 to make a full clone through git://
08:02<TomyLobo>from the repo
08:03<TomyLobo>so that's 4 times the time of an SVN checkout or 1 minute and 1 second longer
08:03<TomyLobo>i'd say that's not too long a wait :)
08:05<@Terkhen>with mercurial I keep a clean clone of the remote repo, and then clone all of my repositories from the local "central" repository
08:05<@Terkhen>I suppose that you can do the same in git
08:05<@Terkhen>and that's faster :)
08:08<TomyLobo>Terkhen yep, shallow copy takes 1/4 the time of an svn checkout :D
08:08<TomyLobo>well i didnt measure it, hold on
08:09<@Terkhen>that's on windows or linux?
08:09<TomyLobo>on linux it'd be even faster
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08:11<TomyLobo>svn checkout and git working copy+repo are about the same size :D
08:11<Beul>Alberth: speaking of unintended side effects:
08:11<TomyLobo>svn: 74 (86 on disk), git: 85 (88 on disk)
08:13<@Alberth>Beul: there is a much easier way, just make bridges invisible :p
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08:15<Beul>Alberth: that would not be unintended
08:16<@Alberth>TomyLobo: that's great and all, but I don't pick a VCS based on how fast or slow it is. "Reasonable" is fast enough in practice.
08:16<TomyLobo>Alberth i don't, either
08:16<@Alberth>Beul: true
08:17<TomyLobo>it's just that TrueBrain is saying SVN is faster than git at what it does
08:17-!-telanus [~telanus@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
08:17<TomyLobo>he's lying
08:18<@Alberth>TomyLobo: don't you know you can prove anything you like with numbers/statistics?
08:18<TrueBrain>euh .. don't start twisting my words there
08:18<TrueBrain>you said SVN is slow. Which is unfounded, and untrue
08:19<@Alberth>Beul: does this count? :)
08:19<@planetmaker>I really love these VCS fundamentalists :-)
08:19<TomyLobo>if i wanted to say something unfounded and (probably) untrue, i'd say you're working for tigris
08:19<andythenorth>how about a patch
08:20<andythenorth>I need to have two grfs with the same ID both active
08:20<@Alberth>TomyLobo: subversion has moved
08:20<@planetmaker>Alberth: Beul: invisible bridges are... somewhat problematic. You'd remove them for all infra types. And there's only 11 different ones
08:21<@Alberth>planetmaker: who need visible bridges, they are just in the way to see what happens under it :)
08:21<@planetmaker>Beul: and I'd also like to congratulate you on your nice grf work
08:21<@planetmaker>looks very nice
08:22<Beul>ty planetmaker, I think Alberth meant makeing bridges transparent not making them invisible like i did with the tracks:p
08:22<@planetmaker>invisible = ingame function, transparent = sprite level?
08:22<@planetmaker>hm... both is an ingame GUI option... :-P
08:22<@Alberth>Beul: they are non-visible either way :)
08:23<@planetmaker>but I think you talked about sprite levels, right?
08:23<oskari89>Does NML support waypoints?
08:23*Beul is getting confused now
08:24<@planetmaker>oskari89: no, it doesn't support stations (which waypoints are a special kind of)
08:24<@planetmaker>Beul: sorry, nvm me then :-)
08:24<@Alberth>nml development is not moving very fast, is it?
08:24<andythenorth>not right now
08:24<@planetmaker>sadly, no
08:24<oskari89>May be a big project to include stations to NML?
08:25*Beul also wonders if planetmaker knows a way to disable building tracks for the mew tunnel grf
08:25<oskari89>It would significantly accelerate station projects, though :)
08:25<@planetmaker>oskari89: sure. And tbh, anyone would be our guest
08:25<@planetmaker>oskari89: it's on my wishlist definitely
08:25<Beul>(don't think it is possible without a patch thoug?
08:25<andythenorth>nfo station spec is a right arse
08:25<@planetmaker>Beul: there's no such way
08:25<andythenorth>the station spec lacks sense, it's madness
08:25<andythenorth>as are the docs
08:26<oskari89>And there's very little people who have coded stations :P
08:26*Beul braces for bug reports with URTP grf then
08:26<@planetmaker>Beul: and tbh, a patch I see for that is rather on the line of a flag for the tunnel portal which says "special entrance" which allows to build new objects (or possibly anything) on top
08:27<@Alberth>oskari89: three guesses why :)
08:27<andythenorth>try making sense of this :P
08:27<@planetmaker>Beul: which would be 50% of the so-called custom bridge and tunnel heads
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08:28<SomeoneMcMe>Anyone what to play on my sever?
08:28<Xaroth>this isn't the place to ask :)
08:28<SomeoneMcMe>:C sorry
08:28<@Alberth>very few players here :)
08:28<Beul>planetmaker, I would shurely agree, but writing patches is beyond my capabilities atm
08:28*andythenorth seeks help with converting FISH to nml
08:29<andythenorth>I have a buy menu string that describes refitted capacities
08:29<andythenorth>can't make my brain figure out how to put the numbers in
08:29<@Alberth>Xaroth: do you know a better channel?
08:29<@planetmaker>andythenorth: similar to openttd strings:
08:30<@planetmaker>STR_BLAH: This displays {NUM} numbers in this string
08:30<andythenorth>thanks. it's wrapped in some if / else condition stuff I need to figure out too
08:30<@Alberth>number{P "" "s"} actually :)
08:30<andythenorth>I'm probably nesting a stack of substrings I think
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08:30<@planetmaker>Right Alberth :-)
08:30<andythenorth>BANDIT does this , but Eddi|zuHause solved it for me :P
08:31<Beul>does using the maintenance_cost callback make a grf incompatible with versions lower than 1.2.0?
08:31<Beul>or will it simply ignore the callback?
08:32<@planetmaker>it will not work
08:32<@planetmaker>unless you include the maintence cost callback conditionally, depending on the openttd version
08:33<@planetmaker>but tbh, Beul: stop caring about pre-1.2.0 OpenTTD ;-)
08:33<TrueBrain>there is no pre 1.2.0 :P
08:33*TrueBrain removes some binaries
08:33*TrueBrain looks inocent
08:33<@planetmaker>a huge load of newgrf things were added in that version which make newgrf developer life so much easier
08:33<andythenorth>eurasia was always at war with eastasia
08:34<@planetmaker>Beul: and the audience plays 1.2.0 or later anyway
08:35<Beul>the reason I would like to be able to use it in earlier versions than 1.2.0 is to use it with CillCore's patchpack
08:36<@planetmaker>Beul: for what it's worth: all NewGRFs I changed since December won't work on OpenTTD prior to 1.2.0
08:36<@planetmaker>Beul: also ChillCore will create a new version of his PP. Or so I read
08:36<@planetmaker>And the next major OpenGFX won't work on pre-1.2.0 OpenTTD anymore either
08:37<@Alberth>Beul: in open source, anything older than a year or so is dead :)
08:39<@planetmaker>Beul: you mean the maintenance cost property, not callback, right? Or of what thing do you speak of?
08:39*TomyLobo just built 2 airports at the opposing ends of his city
08:40<Beul>yeah, used the worng term once again
08:40<@planetmaker> <-- conditionally including a property
08:40<Beul>property is what I meant indeed:p
08:41<Beul>like this one:
08:41<Beul>@kamnet - surely it won't be too long (tm) that the patchpack is updated to 1.2.1 compatibility?
08:41<Beul>especially (tm)
08:43<@planetmaker>rather this:
08:43<andythenorth>converting FISH to nml is quite quick to do
08:44<@planetmaker>it's a relatively simple NewGRF, is it andythenorth?
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08:45<@planetmaker>technically speaking. Except maybe the wood rafts
08:45<@planetmaker>and the many wakes :-)
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08:45<andythenorth>the wood rafts will need special case
08:46<Beul>planetmaker: saw that thread as well would be very nice to have an new clean patchpack from him
08:46<andythenorth>planetmaker: I need to try converting to the new makefile
08:46<@planetmaker>andythenorth: <-- that's my rewrite
08:48<@planetmaker>hm... I just wonder whether it's missing the essential parts :-O
08:49<andythenorth>today would be a good day for me to test it
08:49<@planetmaker>lol. It is missing the dir with the makefile parts :-P
08:49<TomyLobo>why could a Dinger 200 explode at the end of the landing strip?
08:50<TomyLobo>of an intercontinental airport
08:50<@planetmaker>why not?
08:50<TomyLobo>because planes don't normally go up in flames
08:50<@planetmaker>bad weather, bad tires, malfunctioning thrust reverser
08:50<TomyLobo>ok, so random
08:50<@planetmaker>they usually do when they hit an obstacle
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08:52<@planetmaker>andythenorth: actually... it's not missing the essential part. The essential part is in a separate repo:
08:52<@planetmaker>the first linked one is just an example newgrf
08:53<@planetmaker>which uses the makefile repo as a sub repo
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08:55<andythenorth>so where do I start? :)
08:55<andythenorth>I should rm current makefile stuff?
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08:56<@planetmaker>you could. But keep your Makefile.config
08:56<@planetmaker>Though personally I'd just overwrite and delete unused files
08:56<@planetmaker>names remain
08:56<andythenorth>what's /scripts do?
08:57<@planetmaker>actually, yes, keep the files. and just overwrite
08:57<@planetmaker>the example repo I linked uses build-common
08:57<@planetmaker>that is the scripts dir
08:57<@planetmaker>no need to rename it
08:57<@planetmaker>it's amatter of telling it in the Makefile where to find its parts :-)
08:58<@planetmaker> <-- there
08:58<@planetmaker>just replace build-common by scripts
08:58<@planetmaker>or let's start from the beginning:
08:58<andythenorth>please :)
08:59<@planetmaker>take that Makefile
08:59<@planetmaker>change line 16 to point to the scripts dir
08:59<@planetmaker>and also mind lines 9-17
09:00<@planetmaker>Then take all files from and put them in your scripts dir, overwriting the stuff you have
09:00<@planetmaker>and try whether it builds ;-)
09:01<andythenorth>I should set values for MAIN_SRC_FILE and GFX_LIST_FILES ?
09:01<@planetmaker>unless you don't generate sprites. Then uncomment GFX_LIST_FILES
09:02<andythenorth>MAIN_SRC_FILE - what's that expecting?
09:04<@planetmaker>the main pnml file which includes all others
09:04<andythenorth>k I don't have one of those :)
09:04<@planetmaker>probably src/fish.pnml
09:04<andythenorth>python build ;)
09:04<@planetmaker>well... that's tricky then
09:05<andythenorth>managed to hack it onto the old makefile for BANDIT ;)
09:05<@planetmaker>especially as I don't know what you want to do and plan to do
09:06<andythenorth>in a nutshell: call the python build script if any deps change
09:07<andythenorth>that will generate a complete nml file
09:07<andythenorth>and lang files
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09:09<andythenorth>bandit uses a which looks like this:
09:09<andythenorth>and it works afaict, including for the graphics generation
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09:11<FLHerne_>andythenorth: While you're redoing FISH, would it be possible to make the rafts go round corners neatly?
09:11<andythenorth>I'm open to patches for that
09:11<andythenorth>what's the issue?
09:11<@planetmaker>ok, andythenorth, keep that in the scripts dir like for bandit
09:11-!-FLHerne_ is now known as FLHerne
09:12<FLHerne>Looks strange in rivers and canals when the rafts are sliding across the bank :P
09:12<andythenorth>FLHerne: how would you solve it?
09:13<FLHerne>I don't know :P . Is there any way for a ship to know it just went round a corner?
09:13<+michi_cc>Articulated ships! :)
09:14<@planetmaker>andythenorth: you need to basically replace the content of this file: and
09:14<andythenorth>^ claims to apply to ships
09:14<@planetmaker>they can thus be commented out in the main Makefile. But the targets thereing (nml and lng) must thus be re-defined in the of yours
09:14<+michi_cc>So were do you find "adjacent wagon pairs" for ships?
09:14<andythenorth>I wtf-ed a bit at that
09:14<@planetmaker>and I'm coming late for BBQ.... sorry, see you later :-)
09:15<andythenorth>planetmaker: np thanks
09:15<andythenorth>michi_cc: I forgot, it's a train game o/c :P
09:15<@planetmaker>I shall have a look maybe tomorrow morning in the train, andythenorth
09:15<andythenorth>no rush
09:15<andythenorth>the conversion is not ready yet
09:24*andythenorth wonders what default model life is for ships
09:24<Chris_Booth>7,000,000 years
09:25*andythenorth ignore_file++
09:25<andythenorth>the code probably knows
09:43<andythenorth>Alberth: variable ship speed? Faster only when 100% unloaded? Or proportional to current load amount?
09:45<@Alberth>propoertional for a few km/h ?
09:46<@Alberth>you could do +1 for less than 66% and +2 for less than 33% if you want to do proportional, but 0 if >=50% and +x if < 50% is fine too
09:46<TomyLobo>you could make a physical model
09:47<@Alberth>or if you want 3 km/h faster, one step every 25 % which is probably easier
09:47<andythenorth>I have python to hand, so I can just do straight maths on it ;)
09:47<@Alberth>TomyLobo: yep, right after you provide a patch for non-zero sized ships
09:47<TomyLobo>taking into account the part of the ship that's in the water (and thus friction)
09:48<andythenorth>sounds like an ottd patch
09:48<@Alberth>oh, nml implies no computing by hand any more :)
09:48<TomyLobo>as well as the inertia of the cargo and ship
09:49<TomyLobo>and of course the power of the engine
09:49<@Alberth>don't for get people rowing to make it go faster :p
09:49<TomyLobo>of course
09:49<@Alberth>s/for get/forget/
09:50<@Alberth>oh, and the amount of fuel on board is also important
09:50<TomyLobo>not to forget bribing the captain to look the other way on some state regulations
09:50*Alberth ponders limited range of ships
09:51<andythenorth>similar to planes/
09:51<andythenorth>ships can bunker at sea
09:51<andythenorth>civilian planes don't do that :P
09:51<TomyLobo>except in movies
09:51<@Alberth>I don't know how often a ship needs to take in fuel, I guess not that often to make it worthwhile
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09:55<andythenorth>I have to figure out how this interacts with river / sea speeds :)
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10:03*andythenorth wonders if that will happen via automagic
10:04<andythenorth>hmm, seems to
10:04<andythenorth>that's nice :)
10:06*andythenorth needs a volunteer to add ships stats to the CMS :P
10:16<andythenorth>what causes the ship depot window to change size when reloading grfs?
10:19<andythenorth>Alberth: difference between speed laden / unladen? 3mph?
10:20<TomyLobo>is there some max radius for a city?
10:20<@Alberth>I suggested 10%, which gets somewhere around that number
10:20<@Alberth>but it's a random number, so feel free to adjust
10:25<TomyLobo>my city is kinda shrinking right now
10:25<@Alberth>it's collapsing under its own gravity? :p
10:26<TomyLobo>it's at 290k
10:26<TomyLobo>has been almost 300k earlier
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10:26<@Alberth>I don't know about cities, but people seem to be obsessed about them
10:26<TomyLobo>well i restricted myself to one city
10:27<@Alberth>so I am quite sure someone can answer all details about cities that you ever want to know
10:27<@Alberth>quite likely it is already at the forum or the wiki
10:28<andythenorth>Alberth: I'll make it a fraction set per ship, that will do nicely
10:28<andythenorth>1.1 can be typical
10:28<@Alberth>@calc 28*1.1
10:28<@DorpsGek>Alberth: 30.8
10:28<@Alberth>quite :)
10:28<TomyLobo>@calc floor(pi)
10:28<@DorpsGek>TomyLobo: 3
10:29<@Alberth>hopefully that did not come as a surprise :)
10:29<TomyLobo>it's engineers' pi
10:31*andythenorth ponders setting 100 discrete values representing 0-100% loaded
10:31<andythenorth>with pynml, such things are entirely plausible :P
10:32<Beul>seems to me like andythenorth is qiute the ambitious type :)
10:32<@Alberth>11 are many more than enough :)
10:32<@Alberth>Beul: ambitious in ideas, but also practical to scale down when needed :)
10:32<TomyLobo>yay, it's stable above 300k... and down to 299xxx again
10:33<TomyLobo>ffs stop shrinking you silly city
10:34<@Alberth>TomyLobo: what's so special about x493e0 ?
10:34<@Alberth>ie it seems stable at 299k :)
10:34<TomyLobo>that the game is teasing me with it
10:34<@Alberth>or even 1k :D
10:34<TomyLobo>now it went up to 205k
10:35<@Alberth>new building temporarily do not have inhabitants, that might explain your fluctuations
10:36<Beul>I also do not understand the obsession with cities, they seem to grow easy enoug on normal settings. I actualy find it quite annoying to set up a transport network in a city, expand the rest of my network, only to come back and realise all stations are overloaded with waiting passengers and the whole area is overgrown :p
10:36<TomyLobo>while being construction sites, right?
10:37<@Alberth>Beul: there is a setting to forbid towns from making new roads, that helps in not overgrowing :)
10:37<andythenorth>I need to know % loaded, so cargo_count / cargo_capacity
10:37<@Alberth>TomyLobo: I think so, but I don't have the details
10:37<TomyLobo>if they're on a 3x3 grid, you can just buy the places they can grow to :)
10:38<TomyLobo>which is what i do
10:38<TomyLobo>to prevent the city from growing into the mountains
10:38<TomyLobo>before i flatten those *g*
10:38*andythenorth wonders how nml handles range checks
10:38<@Alberth>Beul: ie disallow it, and then build roads yourself where you want the city to grow
10:39<@Alberth>TomyLobo: you know you can load a (flat) heightmap instead, right?
10:39<andythenorth>x...y: return stuff
10:39<TomyLobo>Alberth where's the challenge?
10:39*Alberth prefers random roads and growing
10:40<@Alberth>TomyLobo: flattening a mountain is a challenge?
10:40<andythenorth>hmm, I can just return values of vars in nml it seems
10:40<TomyLobo>before i had those planes, flattening the terrain actually took almost all my income
10:40<@Alberth>it just takes a lot of money
10:41<Beul>Alberth, also prefer the random roads and growing, it's just the speed at whitch it happens that I can't handle
10:41<@Alberth>so you bought planes for the challenge?
10:41<Beul>and yes, I do know that there is a patch for that
10:41<TomyLobo>no, i bought them to make more money
10:42<TomyLobo>once my city was of sufficient size to support a plane route inside the city
10:42<@Alberth>Beul: I don't service towns except where I want to deliver goods and/or food
10:42*Beul loves playiog with cargodist for passengers
10:43<@Alberth>I haven't done that enough yet :)
10:45<@Alberth>Beul: there are also grfs that change the 'I bought this tile' sign to a grass-like tile, which you can put around your city
10:48<andythenorth>return 16 to nml speed cb results in speed 5mph
10:48<andythenorth>which makes no sense :P
10:50<andythenorth>perhaps it's nfo style
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10:50<@Alberth>can't you add a unit or so?
10:51<andythenorth>not supported
10:51<andythenorth>I have to do int(3.2*16)
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10:51<@Alberth>hmm, stupid
10:51<andythenorth>I love it when values are not the values you expect :)
10:52<andythenorth>otherwise the grf would get done really quickly, and where's the fun in that ?
10:52<@Alberth>perhaps it should depend on its revision number :p
10:53<@Alberth>preferably very slowly changing, so authors don't notice it very quickly :P
10:55<@Alberth>hmm, we sohould add realistic acceleration first then, so we can blame it :)
10:56<andythenorth>using int(3.2*speed) gives me values that are too low compared to the nfo version of FISH :P
10:56*andythenorth wonders how python rounds
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10:57<Beul>haha Alberth, good idea: blame it on realistic acceleration :p
10:57<andythenorth>python truncates towards zero
10:57<andythenorth>so I need to call floor / ceil?
10:58<andythenorth>maybe round()
10:59<@Alberth>int == floor afaik
10:59<andythenorth>seems to
10:59<andythenorth>but round seems to round down also
10:59<andythenorth>@calc 51/3.2
10:59<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 15.9375
10:59<andythenorth>ah, nml might be doing the rounding
11:00<andythenorth>that should come out as 16, but doesn't :P
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11:57<__ln__>'qapla Wolf01
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12:31*MNIM tosses a tribble at __ln__
12:34<andythenorth>Alberth: max speed to report in buy menu etc - laden or unladen?
12:34<@Alberth>unladen imho
12:34<andythenorth>more logical
12:35<andythenorth>might be more annoying :P
12:35<@Alberth>as manufacturer you don't want to underestimate the performance of your vehicles :p
12:35<FLHerne>Laden - that's how fast it'll go when actually in use :-)
12:35<FLHerne>Probably less confusing for AIs, too?
12:36<andythenorth>some of the existing ships change speed when laden; they report laden speed in buy menu
12:36<@Alberth>could be an interesting experiment, waiting for bug reports "he, the ship goes faster than specs" :)
12:36<andythenorth>otherwise annoying
12:36<andythenorth>log raft does it
12:36<andythenorth>hovercraft does it
12:36*Alberth mostly looks at reliability
12:37<@Alberth>but I am one of the idiots that plays with breakdowns enabled :p
12:37<andythenorth>moi aussi, sometimes
12:37<Wolf01>me too, Alberth
12:37<andythenorth>otherwise it's boring :P
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12:46<@Alberth>consistency is probably more interesting
12:49<Beul>I do not see any problems in defining max speed unladen
12:49<Beul>2cc in combination with nutracks allready has some trains that allmost never reach full speed
12:50<andythenorth>logic says that
12:50<andythenorth>but ships work differently to trains
12:50<andythenorth>if you buy a log tug that reports 21mph, but only get 7mph laden, you'll be....annoyed
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12:55<andythenorth>I have rounding errors that make this speed varying thing unworkable right now :P
12:56<andythenorth>purchase menu speed is shown differently to vehicle speed when built
12:56<andythenorth>ach may be maths by me
12:58<@Alberth>ships don't have physics
13:05<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: report the (un)laden speed in the additional purchase text (via parameter, so mph-km/h switching works)
13:06<andythenorth>could do
13:06<andythenorth>I've already got canal and ocean speed in there too
13:06<andythenorth>quite a lot of speeds :)
13:07*andythenorth is now bored of playing 'guess' with floating points and ints
13:07<andythenorth>this is one case where nfo was just easier
13:08<@Alberth>I am surprised it is that difficult with nml
13:08<andythenorth>the ability to do stuff like 'return: 1 + (foo / bar)' in nml is over-rated and flakey :P
13:08<andythenorth>"Floating-point operations are only possible when both operands are compile-time constants"
13:08<@Alberth>you do give it floating point values, right?
13:09<andythenorth>no, I'm trying to turn them all into ints
13:09<andythenorth>but fractions as ints is...problematic :P
13:09*andythenorth is tempted to do the 'multiply by 8, divide by x' solution
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13:09<@Alberth>I could have a looksie whether it is easily fixable, but not now
13:10<andythenorth>I can solve it brutally with some range checks
13:10<andythenorth>it fails the one-line code game
13:10*andythenorth has babies to bath anyway
13:11<TomyLobo>int fac(n) { return n==0 ? 1 : n*fac(n-1); }
13:12<TomyLobo>do i win? :)
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13:18<@Alberth>TomyLobo: and now with a lambda function :)
13:19<TomyLobo>cba to look up the syntax
13:19<@Alberth>lambda <parameters> : <return-expression>
13:20<@Alberth>f = lambda x, y: x + 1 f(1,2)
13:22<andythenorth>this rounding is tiresome
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13:25<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: feel like lending a hand?
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>if you can repeat the question in 3 lines?
13:26<andythenorth>5 mins
13:26<andythenorth>writing a good question takes time :P
13:28<FLHerne>Has anyone here tried Cinnamon much?
13:28-!-cyph3r [] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier.]
13:28*FLHerne found it a bit unpolished
13:32<Eddi|zuHause>only in combination with apple sauce
13:36<andythenorth>ship max speed is determined as follows: base speed + (additional speed inversely proportional to % loaded)
13:36<andythenorth>needs to be returned as a cb result, including dicking around with multiplying by 3.2
13:37<andythenorth>I have 'speed' and 'speed_unladen' available as vars
13:37<andythenorth>(python vars in scope during the build)
13:38<andythenorth>relevant nml vars at runtime seem to be 'cargo_count' and 'cargo_capacity'
13:43<andythenorth>it would be acceptable for the granularity of this to be low, e.g four bounds of 25% each
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13:55<frosch123>back in the old world?
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14:00<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: ^^^
14:01<andythenorth>(I also have arbitrary python functions in scope if I want, at compile time)
14:02<andythenorth>I'm thinking of just doing dumb range checks tbh; I was trying to get a return value on a single line of nml but I'm bored of that :P
14:02<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: attempt #1: switch(cargo_count*100/cargo_capacity) { 0 : (speed_unladen*100+speed*0)/100, 1..25 : (speed_unladen*75+speed*25)/100, 26..50 : (speed_unladen*50+speed*50)/100, 51..75 :(speed_unladen*25+speed*75)/100, 76..100 : (speed_unladen*0+speed*100)/100,
14:03<Eddi|zuHause>granularity easily varied
14:04<andythenorth>k thanks
14:04<andythenorth>makes sense
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>it's beautiful if it does that :)
14:06<Eddi|zuHause>the parts behind the : should be compile-time constants
14:07<andythenorth>I'll make it so
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14:10*andythenorth smells that Eddi|zuHause knows which order computers do mathematical operations :P
14:10*andythenorth always puts brackets in, 'just in case' :P
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>not in all cases. but here it's a common case where you learn a few things over time (hopefully)
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>the most important bit is to do the * before the /
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>and that * comes before + you learn in first grade
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>or third grade if you're unlucky
14:12<andythenorth>ok, so speed_unladen is a float, which isn't allowed in a switch block
14:12<andythenorth>I'll trying rounding it
14:18<andythenorth>I'm not allowed to multiply by 3.2 in a switch block
14:19<@Yexo>multiply by 16 and divide by 5
14:20<Eddi|zuHause>multiply by 32 and divide by 10
14:20<@Yexo>that only matters if you're going to add 5 before dividing by 10 to get better rounding
14:20<andythenorth>right, those both work :)
14:20<andythenorth>I have rounding errors still though
14:20<Eddi|zuHause>so have (speed_unladen*75+speed*25)*32/1000
14:20*andythenorth checks
14:21<andythenorth>maybe it's working actually :)
14:21*andythenorth needs to test
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>if you want to add Yexo's suggestion: (speed_unladen*75+speed*25+5)*32/1000
14:23<@Yexo>doesn't matter in speed, the 32+5)/1000 part will be encoded as a single varaction2 action
14:23<andythenorth>ugliest nml code in the world right now
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14:24<andythenorth>I could round the speed vars in the python first I guess
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14:24<andythenorth>I need to round 'speed' as well as 'speed_unladen'
14:28<andythenorth>I should add the +5 :P
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14:32*andythenorth now has some 7,000mph ships :P
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14:33<SpComb>isn't that what everyone does the first time they dirty their hands with NewGRFs?
14:39<andythenorth>so the only puzzle I have is why the 'speed' is wrong
14:39<andythenorth>the vehicle speed is 16mph
14:40<andythenorth>but when using a cb and doing the 32 + 5 / 1000 adjustment, I get 15mph
14:40<andythenorth>I could actually live with this, but it puts the config file at odds with the result in game
14:45<andythenorth>@calc 16 * 3,2
14:45<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
14:45<andythenorth>@calc 16 * 3.2
14:45<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 51.2
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14:45<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: on the purchase list, you probably cannot check cargo_amount, so the switch will produce a random result. you'll need a special purchase list callback returning "speed"
14:46<andythenorth>got that already
14:46<andythenorth>this is something to do with integer maths that I don't understand yet
14:46<andythenorth>@calc 51.2 / 8
14:46<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 6.4
14:46*NGC3982 is hungover like a sir.
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>and the last one should be /10, not /1000
14:46<andythenorth>although that result should never be reached, so I swapped it for 0 now
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>sounds bad
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>and why exactly don't you do the *3.2 in python?
14:47<andythenorth>I could, I'll still have the rounding error though
14:47<andythenorth>I tried that already :)
14:48<Eddi|zuHause>what's "the rounding error"?
14:48<andythenorth>51.2 will always be used by the game as 15mph, not 16mph
14:48<andythenorth>for some integer maths reason
14:48<andythenorth>52 works ok
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>there is no 51.2 in integer maths
14:49<andythenorth>and the game always rounds down?
14:49<andythenorth>this isn't new, I've just forgotten how to solve it :P
14:49<@Alberth>integer division does
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>that depends on what you mean
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>honestly you're not making a lot of sense
14:50<andythenorth>forget my thinking - here's the problem:
14:50<andythenorth>16mph * 3.2 = 51.2
14:50<@Alberth>do you want rounding up? (a + b - 1) / b
14:50<andythenorth>51.2 used as a speed value in newgrf cb will result in 15mph
14:50<andythenorth>so problem: how do I reliably round up (or down?)
14:51<Eddi|zuHause>so "speed" is 16, and you want the ingame speed to be 16 as well?
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>if you want "round up", then change the +5 to a +9
14:52<TomyLobo>hmm i was thinking... if i left a temperate map running for a billion years or something, allowed multiple industries of the same type per city
14:52<TomyLobo>i'd end up with a map full of power plants, right?
14:52<@Alberth>depends on the industry newgrf
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>people have been reporting towns full of water towers and banks
14:53<TomyLobo>yeah and banks
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14:53*andythenorth is going to assume that rounding up is always safe
14:53<TomyLobo>although... dont those close?
14:54<Eddi|zuHause>no idea
14:54<Eddi|zuHause>tropic banks are different from temperate banks, though
14:54-!-kkimlabs [~kkimlabs@VPNRASA-WLAN-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd
14:54<TomyLobo>ah, cayman islands, right
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14:59<Eddi|zuHause>the "road vehicle queueing" tooltip should possibly explain what "quantum effects" are
15:00<@Terkhen>it's easy; quantum tunneling, schrodinger box and so on
15:00<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: :)
15:00<andythenorth>also, + 9 doesn't solve the rounding :P
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: well _I_ know that...
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you sure?
15:00<andythenorth>it's a shame that nml cbs don't support values in the same way as props
15:00<@Terkhen>so do I, it seems to be common knowledge and therefore it does not need an explanation :)
15:03<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: no not sure, weird results :P
15:04<andythenorth>@calc 57.609/3.2
15:04<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 18.0028125
15:04<andythenorth>@calc 57/3.2
15:04<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 17.8125
15:04<andythenorth>@calc 56 / 3.2
15:04<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 17.5
15:04<andythenorth>@calc 54/3.2
15:04<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 16.875
15:08<@Yexo>andythenorth: rounding up is not always safe, but it's better. Less people will complain if they buy a vehicle that said 16mph and it will actually go 17mph then when they buy a vehicle that said 16mph and it actually goes 15mph
15:09<andythenorth>@calc 51.209 / 3.2
15:09<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 16.0028125
15:09<andythenorth>game returns 15 for that calculation ^
15:09<andythenorth>rounding the 51.209 I guess
15:10<@Yexo>you can't put 51.209 in your newgrf
15:10<@Yexo>so it'll be 51 there I guess
15:10<@Yexo>@calc 51 / 3.2
15:10<@DorpsGek>Yexo: 15.9375
15:11<@Yexo>which rounds down to 15
15:11<TomyLobo>maybe round to closest integer?
15:11<andythenorth>that will round down
15:11<andythenorth>I need ceil()
15:11<andythenorth>which nml doesn't offer afaik
15:11<@Yexo>@calc ceil(16*3.2)
15:11<@DorpsGek>Yexo: 52
15:11<TomyLobo>ceil is -floor(-x) :D
15:11<@Yexo>@calc 52 / 3.2
15:11<@DorpsGek>Yexo: 16.25
15:11<@Yexo>which rounds down to 16
15:11<@Alberth>Yexo: how difficult is it to write a reverse engineering routine to compute the right magic value?
15:12<@Yexo>it's already included in nml
15:12<@Yexo>but not available for callback results
15:12<andythenorth>I could import nml to my python build script, use the routine?
15:12<@Yexo>the problem is that in a callback result nml has to know the type of vehicle
15:13<@Alberth>we're talking compile time, right?
15:13<@Alberth>ie during nmlc run
15:13<@Yexo>it's definitely possible, just not yet done
15:14<@Alberth>that's probably a long list :)
15:14<@Yexo>yep ;)
15:22<Eddi|zuHause><Yexo> the problem is that in a callback result nml has to know the type of vehicle <-- the switch has a feature entry, right?
15:24<NGC3982>if trains normally load 10% if they stay two days on a station, shouldnt load increase (as long as productions follows) if the trains stays for a longer time?
15:24<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: ENoContext
15:25<andythenorth>is that a new reddit thing or something?
15:25<andythenorth>I suddenly keep seeing it :P
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that's the naming scheme for Delphi exceptions
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>so actually old :)
15:26<andythenorth>most memes are, they just take a while :P
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it has been used here for years
15:27<@Terkhen>first time I notice it :P
15:27*andythenorth offers a diversion
15:27-!-LordAro [] has joined #openttd
15:27<@Terkhen>hi LordAro
15:27<@Terkhen>how are your exams? :)
15:28<LordAro>exams? finished them a month ago :P
15:28<LordAro>results = 16 aug
15:28<LordAro>current life purpose = university applications
15:28<@Alberth>hi LordAro
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15:29<LordAro>hia Alberth
15:29<@Terkhen>oooh, I see :)
15:29<@Terkhen>good luck with both the results and the applications
15:29<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: i fail to understand. google talks about zaphod beeblebrox.
15:29<@Alberth>the results are already decided no matter what you do :)
15:30<andythenorth>@calc 57/3.2
15:30<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 17.8125
15:30<@Alberth>NGC3982: you've not read enough hitch hiker to the galaxy
15:31<NGC3982>and i thought i had
15:31<@Alberth>then you'd know zaphod :p
15:31<@Yexo>NGC3982: if you force vehicles to stay in a station by using a timetable, I'm not sure they keep loading all that time
15:31<NGC3982>Alberth: i know zaphod, much and much.
15:32*andythenorth might have to round a bit more :)
15:32<@Yexo>NGC3982: ENoContext = Error, Not enough Context provided
15:32<@Alberth>LordAro: you were gone too quickly this morning, but I have no clue whatsoever what that code is about
15:32<NGC3982>Yexo: ah, i see!
15:33<NGC3982>Yexo: and yes, it seems like they dont load more then usual.
15:33<@Yexo>so you do use timetables?
15:34<LordAro>Alberth: :) would i perhaps get more help on the forums?
15:34<NGC3982>Yexo: yes, of course. i didnt know of any other way to make a train wait <amount> of days in a random station? :)
15:35<@Alberth>press 'stop' :)
15:35<@Yexo>NGC3982: I don't think there is a good solution for you currently
15:35*Alberth agrees
15:36<@Yexo>apart from writing a patch so vehicles keep loading more cargo when they are waiting due to their timetable
15:36<@Yexo>I do think the current behavior is sub-optimal
15:36<NGC3982>i see
15:36<NGC3982>well, ill solve it with more trains.
15:36<NGC3982>usually solves most things
15:37<@Yexo>try full-load orders, those usually work for me
15:38<NGC3982>im using UKRS2+ with ECS
15:39<NGC3982>and the industry level jibberish is a bit confusing :)
15:39*NGC3982 conducts an experiment.
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15:43<andythenorth>accurate speeds
15:43<NGC3982>the thing is (or seems to be), that using full load on trains to an ECS oil field lowers the amount of transported oil.
15:43<NGC3982>thus, lowering the level, thus, lowering the production
15:43*NGC3982 scans for a wiki entry
15:47<NGC3982>the wiki entry for the grf doesnt really tell me how transported goods work
15:47*NGC3982 scans for more wiki entries.
15:50<NGC3982>ah, but of course
15:50<NGC3982>since i just change how long time x trains should wait for cargo, they still pick up the same amount
15:50<NGC3982>thus not affecting the transported rate
15:51<NGC3982>ergo ipsum: moar trainz!
15:53<Zuu>If you do "rm -r *&" and then "cp -r ../some_catalog .", is the * of rm expanded by the shell or rm when that command is issued or will some_catalog be removed too if the cp command finnish before?
15:54<Zuu>I realize that the best is to force the shell to expand * before hitting enter :-)
15:54<@Yexo>I'd expect that some_catalog always stays, but I'm not 100% sure
15:55<Zuu>That what I expect/hope too. :-)
15:56-!-kkimlabs [~kkimlabs@VPNRASA-WLAN-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:57<Zuu>... It appears to have worked :-)
15:57<andythenorth>default cargos
15:57<Beul>can an if block be placed iside an item block?
15:58<Beul>in NML?
15:58*NGC3982 fails to increase transported goods.
15:58<Zuu>NGC3982: Do you have a statue?
15:59<NGC3982>no such city nearby
15:59<Zuu>If the city that the industry (or station?) belongs to have a statue, you get 10% rating bonus for that station.
16:00<Beul>NGC3982, in my experience, using shorter trains that leave the pichup station more regularly increases transported cargo with ecs vectors
16:00<Beul>have not figured out why thoug, dut it seems to work
16:00<NGC3982>i see
16:01<NGC3982>im already using 5 tile trains
16:01<Beul>make them even shorter. when production is still low, I use 3 or 4 tile lengt trains
16:01<NGC3982>Beul: with full load?
16:02<andythenorth>default cargo for freight ships should be coal?
16:02<NGC3982>Beul: ill set them to load 50%
16:02<Beul>NGC3982, 333k litres is not much indeed, they should be able to go a lot higher
16:03<Beul>is that even possible?
16:03<@Yexo><Beul> can an if block be placed iside an item block? <- yes
16:03<@Yexo>item (..) { if (a) { property { ... } } else { property { ... } } } <- that is valid
16:05-!-kkimlabs [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd
16:08*NGC3982 just tried a zip of jack daniels cola.
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16:11<Beul>what revision number does 1.1.0 have? (or where could I find that?)
16:13<frosch123>it's a tag
16:15<@Yexo>Beul: and expand the "tags" directory
16:16<Beul>tnx again Yexo
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>Beul: the revision of a release is very uninteresting. you won't get the release if you check out that revision of trunk
16:17<Rubidium>(AT ALL)
16:18<Beul>I am not planning on doing so Eddi|zuHause, I only what to condionally disable the grf
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>Beul: releases have always "revision 0x80000" in the newgrf version
16:18<Beul>ok, usefull to know
16:19<@Yexo>nml probably does not have a nice way to expose that
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16:20<Rubidium>but isn't saying ottd_version(1, 2, 0, <revision that added the feature you need) inside an if the thing you should check for?
16:20<@Yexo>yes, but that's harder to find
16:20<@Yexo>especially if you use multiple features included in 1.x.0
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>but then checking for "ottd_version(1,2,0,0)" will suffice
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>since that is larger than any 1.1.x release
16:21<@Yexo>yes, but the 1.1.x releases are suddenly not valid
16:22<@Yexo>if features have been introduced in 1.1, so 1.1 can support the grf, checking for 1.0.0r0 will allow all nightlies from before 1.1.0, some of which won't support the features you need
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>i was reading it like he wants a feature that is not in 1.1
16:23<@Yexo>ok, checking for 1.2.0r0 will allow the grf for every nightly after the 1.1 branch
16:23<@Yexo>which is not the intension, as early nightlies won't have support for the feature
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>yes. but the premise was to not bother to find out which revision
16:25<Rubidium>rejects all non-stable releases of 1.2 (nightly, beta, rc), everything before 1.1 and everything in trunk after 1.2 branching
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: trunk is increased to 1.3 almost immediately after 1.2 branch
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16:26<@Yexo>the "rejects beta,rc" part is not so nice though
16:26<@Yexo>which brings us back to: find proper revision of feature inclusion, or, since it's easier, find revision of 1.2.0
16:27<Rubidium>hmm, though only for the 1.2 branch and 1.2.0 beta/RCs (I think)
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16:27<Rubidium>as 1.2.1 RCs would have version 1,2,1,<rev>
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16:29<Beul>Eddi|zuHause, Yexo, I allready have: if (openttd_version > version_openttd(1, 2, 0, 22713)) {
16:29<Beul> maintenance_cost: 8;
16:29<Beul> }
16:29<Beul> }
16:29<TomyLobo>"openttd_version > version_openttd" :D
16:29<Beul>but aditionally I want to give a fatal error for versions lower than 1.1.0
16:30<Beul>It looks ridivilous TomyLobo, but it works :p
16:30<TomyLobo>yeah just nice naming
16:33<NGC3982>Beul: i made a ridiculous mess out of it.
16:33*andythenorth does magic
16:34<NGC3982>andythenorth: please spare some for me. :)
16:37<andythenorth>using {NBSP} to space vehicles names in the buy menu causes horrible side effects
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16:38<andythenorth>also nml doesn't appear to respect default_cargo_type for ships
16:39<andythenorth>hmm, only wrt PASS
16:40<andythenorth>PASS is in my cargo table
16:40<andythenorth>frick, maybe it's not in this game
16:40<andythenorth>FIRS claims to provide it
16:42*andythenorth is baffle-ised
16:43<Beul>has anybody in here got the latest version of chillcore's patchpack?
16:43*andythenorth solves stupid issue
16:44<@Yexo>not refitable to ships?
16:45<@Yexo>and isn't defautl_cargo_type unsupported anyway?
16:45<Hirundo>It is supported (though wasn't)
16:45<andythenorth>mistake in my code
16:45<andythenorth>don't trust magic :P
16:46<@Yexo>good night everyone
16:46<Supercheese>Night, I guess. Time zones are strange
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>Beul: chills patchpack is based on a really old trunk revision
16:47<andythenorth>bye Yexo
16:52<NGC3982>Beul: there we are!
16:52<NGC3982>Beul: worked like a charm.
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16:56<andythenorth>Hirundo: does nml have an equivalent of string code 1F?
16:56<andythenorth>or 01
16:57<Hirundo>SETX / SETXY?
16:57<MinchinWeb>Is there a way, with NoAI, to find out how much cargo a vehicle is currently carrying?
16:57<Hirundo>andythenorth: why do you need it?
16:57<andythenorth>buy menu offsets for FISH
16:58<MinchinWeb>join #openttdcoop
16:58<Beul>NGC3982, the ecs thingie you mean?
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16:59<andythenorth>SETX isn't found in my nml src
16:59<Hirundo>andythenorth: wasn'
16:59<Hirundo>t openttd modified that it takes the sprite width into account?
17:00<andythenorth>apparently not :P
17:00<Hirundo>damn ' next to enter button :S
17:00<Supercheese>That cursed apostrophe key, leading to so many premature Entries
17:00<NGC3982>Beul: yes
17:01<Hirundo>andythenorth: I can find no trace of it in the NML code or docs, so the answer is no
17:01<andythenorth>I concur ;)
17:01<andythenorth>maybe I should try and patch it
17:01<andythenorth>I recall some discussion about deprecating it?
17:03<andythenorth> definitely misses it
17:04<Hirundo>It is indeed sortof deprecated and no longer exists except for NewGRFs
17:04<andythenorth>seems like the game should just handle this case
17:04<@planetmaker>good evening
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17:05<andythenorth>why does the depot view window change size sometimes?
17:05<andythenorth>i.e. the boxes in the grid change size depending which ship grfs I have loaded
17:05<@planetmaker>it supposedly adjusts to the ship size
17:05<@planetmaker>sprite size
17:06<andythenorth>makes sense
17:06*andythenorth needs to sleep
17:07<andythenorth>4am was not pretty
17:07<andythenorth>we can't really deprecate setx I guess
17:07<andythenorth>as newgrf spec may never deprecate things
17:07<andythenorth>so maybe I should patch it for nml tomorrow
17:09<andythenorth>good night
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17:17<CIA-4>OpenTTD: frosch * r24366 /trunk/src/script/api/script_vehicle.hpp: -Doc: Improve description of ScriptVehicle::GetCargoLoad.
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17:56<Wolf01>'night all
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18:13<NGC3982>if i have multiple trains at a single pickup station
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18:14<NGC3982>what parameter dictates when more then one of the trains pick up cargo simultaniusly
18:14<NGC3982>with wait for full load, of course.
18:14<NGC3982>i notice that it happends, but only sometimes?
18:14<Supercheese>The loading algorithm, in conjunction with how much cargo is waiting
18:15<NGC3982>is it configurable?
18:16<Supercheese>Stations > Cargo Handling > Use improved loading algorithm
18:16<NGC3982>ah, i see. i have "no" cargo waiting. since i have trains waiting at the station, the cargo goes almost instantly to a train.
18:16<NGC3982>Supercheese: thanks!
18:16<Supercheese>But yeah, if you have very little cargo, only 1 train loads at a time
18:17<Supercheese>with the improved setting on anyway, I've never tested with it off
18:17<NGC3982>i see
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18:35<@Terkhen>good night
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19:09<Beul>NGC3982, if irc with improved loading enabled two trains wil start loading simultanously if the cargo is sulpplied faster than the loading speed of the vehicle loading
19:10<Beul>most newer caraiges/busses/trucks/trams have a property that defines how much cargo can be loaded per tick
19:13<CIA-4>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24367 /trunk/src/ (7 files): -Feature: [NewGRF] Customisable signals for rail types.
19:17<Beul>michi_cc I love you! :D
19:17<Beul>that was exacly what I need to make 'invisible'signals for my cablecars :D
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19:29<Eddi|zuHause>i'd suggest making them not invisible, but instead disguise them as something else
19:30<Beul>well that is why I say "invisible":p
19:31<Beul>I could indeed imagine a couple of problems with realt invisible signals :)
19:31<Eddi|zuHause>indeed :)
19:34<@planetmaker>but they surely will come ;-)
19:34<Beul>well to be honest development from my part might be interupted just as quick as it began...
19:35<Beul>Next week this time I'll be some 10.000ft in the air somewhere above norhtern africa, only to return at the end of august
19:40<Beul>Nice michi_cc, I think some railset developers will also thak you for that ;)
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19:58<Beul>michi_cc troll :o
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20:25<Beul>michi_cc: Are you using GRF version 8 or container version 2? (You do if you use NML nightlies instead of 0.2) Both are 1.2.0+ only. --> checks NML version --> goes ahead and remove lines like these: if (openttd_version > version_openttd(1, 2, 0, 22713)) {
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---Logclosed Mon Jul 02 00:00:54 2012