| --- | Log | opened Sun Jul 01 00:00:51 2012 |
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| 03:22 | * | andythenorth ponders doing trucks as a railtype |
| 03:30 | <andythenorth> | oh dear |
| 03:30 | * | andythenorth is now considering it seriously |
| 03:30 | <andythenorth> | can I haz new train pathfinder please? |
| 03:30 | <andythenorth> | it will require a 'proceed on sight of clear path ahead' |
| 03:30 | <Supercheese> | 45 degree turns with trucks would indeed be verrrry cool |
| 03:31 | <andythenorth> | i.e. reserving a path for the next n clear tiles, n to be modulated by stopping distance |
| 03:31 | <andythenorth> | I am thinking mining trucks |
| 03:31 | <andythenorth> | using rail would allow them to be properly large |
| 03:32 | <andythenorth> | it would be annoying however to have to build signals on every tile, hence new pathfinder |
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| 04:03 | -!- | mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ |
| 04:10 | <TomyLobo> | how do i remove a newgrf from a save? |
| 04:16 | <@planetmaker> | there is no way |
| 04:16 | <@planetmaker> | start a new game |
| 04:16 | <TomyLobo> | [23:58:49] <Beul> andythenorth, removing a newgrf that ads a new rail type causes some interesting behavour but not even that managed to crash the game:p |
| 04:16 | <@planetmaker> | removing NewGRFs usually leaves the savegame in a broken state |
| 04:17 | <TomyLobo> | well i dont want to play it with that newgrf anyway |
| 04:17 | <TomyLobo> | (that newgrf killed passenger cars) |
| 04:18 | <andythenorth> | :| |
| 04:18 | <@planetmaker> | When you enable the newgrf_developer setting you can do that indeed. But ... don't, if you are not developing newgrfs |
| 04:18 | <andythenorth> | TomyLobo it's just the way it works |
| 04:18 | <andythenorth> | nobody likes it this way, but we are where we are ;) |
| 04:18 | <TomyLobo> | planetmaker i am prepared to shoot myself in the foot, dont worry :) |
| 04:19 | <@planetmaker> | TomyLobo: as soon as you enable developer tools your support is void. Don't come asking and wondering about crashes, oddities or strange behaviour |
| 04:20 | <TomyLobo> | i realize that |
| 04:20 | <@planetmaker> | and, btw, don't expect oddities to show immediately in your game then. It might even only show after several game years or so |
| 04:20 | <@planetmaker> | as such: one tempered savegame has lost warranty forever |
| 04:21 | <TomyLobo> | hrm, it didnt bring back the passenger cars |
| 04:21 | <@planetmaker> | exactly |
| 04:21 | <TomyLobo> | it was worth the try :) |
| 04:21 | <@planetmaker> | I could have told you ;-) |
| 04:21 | <@planetmaker> | you cannot bring back vehicles by removing newgrfs ;-) |
| 04:22 | <TomyLobo> | any other idea? :) |
| 04:22 | <@planetmaker> | start a new game? |
| 04:23 | <TomyLobo> | they expired thanks to that newgrf |
| 04:23 | <@planetmaker> | choose your newgrfs carefully before starting a game |
| 04:23 | <TomyLobo> | the newgrf doesnt list an introduction date, or i would just set it to that and see what happens |
| 04:23 | <andythenorth> | try reset_engines in console |
| 04:23 | <@planetmaker> | check briefly ingame whether you got everything. Quit, modify newgrf list and test again. Until you find a combination which works for you |
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| 04:24 | <andythenorth> | TomyLobo: this issue is known to suck |
| 04:25 | <@planetmaker> | indeed quite so |
| 04:25 | <andythenorth> | issues come up like 'play for 70 years, then discover that there's no vehicles to transport cargo x' |
| 04:25 | <andythenorth> | or such |
| 04:25 | * | andythenorth favours recommended combinations of known-good grfs |
| 04:25 | <andythenorth> | which might come with new banaaananaas |
| 04:26 | <TomyLobo> | 8/32bpp Trains 2CC is that newgrf |
| 04:26 | * | andythenorth goes back to converting FISH to nml |
| 04:27 | <TomyLobo> | reset_engines worked, thanks :) |
| 04:28 | <andythenorth> | converting to nml is....interesting |
| 04:28 | * | andythenorth ponders scraping the nfo for current values |
| 04:29 | <andythenorth> | ho |
| 04:29 | <andythenorth> | what would be nice is.... |
| 04:29 | <andythenorth> | ...a tool that could take a grf, and output a csv of all the vehicle action 0 properties |
| 04:29 | <andythenorth> | this would, incidentally be useful for other things |
| 04:30 | <andythenorth> | for example, bundles server could run it to provide a manifest of vehicles in a grf automatically |
| 04:30 | <andythenorth> | as could bananas |
| 04:30 | <@Alberth> | there is an nfo parser in the nml issue tracker :p |
| 04:30 | <@Alberth> | moin andy, pm |
| 04:30 | <andythenorth> | lo |
| 04:30 | <andythenorth> | JSON might be better than csv |
| 04:30 | <@Alberth> | a wiki with useful combinations perhaps? |
| 04:30 | <andythenorth> | perhaps |
| 04:31 | <@Alberth> | xml! |
| 04:31 | <andythenorth> | xml would fit with my xml-driven grf framework |
| 04:31 | * | Alberth has been doing xml processing for 2 days :p |
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| 04:33 | <Rubidium> | oh, come on... why XML? |
| 04:33 | <Rubidium> | use SGML. Much more versatile |
| 04:35 | <@Alberth> | I know, I have the annotated standard here, and have even read most of it |
| 04:36 | <@Alberth> | but standard Python does not come with sgml |
| 04:36 | * | andythenorth uses xml because that's what the templater uses :P |
| 04:36 | <andythenorth> | it may sound like insanity, but the data is not xml |
| 04:36 | <andythenorth> | but the template code is |
| 04:36 | <andythenorth> | what larks |
| 04:39 | <@Alberth> | php conquerored the world with it, so it gets copied everywhere, no matter how conceptually broken it is :) |
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| 04:40 | <andythenorth> | http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1505/ |
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| 04:41 | <andythenorth> | using xml-valid templating languages means that html dev tools don't explode |
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| 04:42 | <@planetmaker> | andythenorth: you know grf2html? "a tool that could take a grf, and output a csv of all the vehicle action 0 properties" |
| 04:42 | <chlorine> | hello |
| 04:42 | <@planetmaker> | hello Alberth |
| 04:43 | <@planetmaker> | and all others :-) |
| 04:43 | <chlorine> | :p |
| 04:47 | <andythenorth> | planetmaker: good point. maybe it could output json |
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| 04:51 | <andythenorth> | ach |
| 04:51 | <andythenorth> | I suppose you people like your buy menu sprites in the right place |
| 04:52 | * | andythenorth grumbles and invents new properties :P |
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| 04:54 | <CIA-4> | OpenTTD: rubidium * r24364 /trunk/src/lang/slovak.txt: -Fix-ish: Slovak compilation failure |
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| 04:56 | <CIA-4> | OpenTTD: rubidium * r24365 /trunk/ (Makefile.lang.in Makefile.setting.in config.lib): -Fix-ish: add C(XX)FLAGS_BUILD to all the executables that are compiled for the build enviroment |
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| 05:10 | <LordAro> | mornings |
| 05:11 | <chlorine> | Hi |
| 05:13 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 05:13 | <andythenorth> | why do offsets differ between nml and nfo? :P |
| 05:14 | <andythenorth> | the x offs seems to be different by about 30pz |
| 05:14 | <@Alberth> | hi LordAro |
| 05:14 | <andythenorth> | px * |
| 05:16 | <andythenorth> | ho |
| 05:16 | <andythenorth> | it's the buy menu string leading spacing missing; nothing to see here :P |
| 05:19 | <LordAro> | i been doing some codings: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1506/ |
| 05:19 | <LordAro> | trouble is, it doesn't work :) |
| 05:23 | <@Alberth> | that is the usual trouble with code :) |
| 05:25 | <LordAro> | i know where it is failing (this->filename seems to be valid _only_ when the file download is in progress) but i can't see anything else to use... |
| 05:25 | <LordAro> | help? :) |
| 05:25 | <andythenorth> | offsetting text by n pixels in newgrf <- deprecated? |
| 05:26 | <andythenorth> | use NBSP instead, and expect font size issues? |
| 05:31 | <andythenorth> | Ammler / planetmaker I can't push as I have .pyc files in my repo, any suggestions? |
| 05:32 | <@planetmaker> | andythenorth: intention or error? |
| 05:32 | <andythenorth> | error |
| 05:32 | <andythenorth> | I don't know how it happened, they are in my ignore file |
| 05:32 | <andythenorth> | I've used hg forget |
| 05:32 | <@planetmaker> | I'll temporarily disable the commit hook |
| 05:32 | <andythenorth> | thanks |
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| 05:34 | <@planetmaker> | try again, andythenorth |
| 05:34 | <andythenorth> | done thanks |
| 05:35 | <@planetmaker> | I'll re-enable it. Or is it not useful (due to needing manual intervention)? |
| 05:36 | <@Terkhen> | good morning |
| 05:36 | <andythenorth> | I think it's useful |
| 05:36 | <@planetmaker> | hello Terkhen |
| 05:36 | <@planetmaker> | ok, re-enabled |
| 05:36 | <andythenorth> | I'm not sure, but I think putting compiled python bytecode on the server might be a possible attack vector |
| 05:36 | <andythenorth> | lo Terkhen |
| 05:38 | <andythenorth> | FISH auto-refit creeps a bit closer |
| 05:38 | <Ammler> | hmm, why didn't you remove the pyc files instead force-push it? |
| 05:38 | <Ammler> | also, you can have a custom ini file in your repo to allow it |
| 05:41 | <@Terkhen> | nice :D |
| 05:42 | <andythenorth> | how do I remove the .pyc from an older rev? Except by doing dangerous things with strip? |
| 05:43 | <Ammler> | why should strip be dangerous? |
| 05:43 | <Ammler> | or convert |
| 05:44 | <Ammler> | it can't be that old revs as it is in the newer revs you push |
| 05:44 | <andythenorth> | removing revs further down the tree seems dangerous to me |
| 05:44 | <andythenorth> | I'd sooner diff all changes, delete my local repo and clone new |
| 05:45 | <Ammler> | now, it is too late, you have already a "broken" repo on the server :-) |
| 05:47 | <TomyLobo> | Ammler i have no idea what andythenorth's situation is, but you do know "git log -g", right? |
| 05:47 | <andythenorth> | I'd have to install git for that :P |
| 05:47 | <TomyLobo> | oh, hg? |
| 05:48 | <TomyLobo> | if you're using mercurial, then you're probably fucked, yeah |
| 05:48 | <andythenorth> | yup |
| 05:48 | <andythenorth> | I like mercurial, but I should probably learn git :P |
| 05:48 | <andythenorth> | I don't like svn much, but I've yet to break a repo with it |
| 05:48 | <andythenorth> | whereas I regularly break hg repos |
| 05:50 | <TomyLobo> | yeah breaking svn *repos*, no |
| 05:50 | <TomyLobo> | working copies? uh.... once a week? |
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| 06:28 | <@Alberth> | you should explain your tools not to touch stuff in .svn directories :p |
| 06:30 | <@Alberth> | wouldn't it be an idea if nml projects used a unique prefix for their language files? Having several "english.lng" files in one download directory causes chaos :( |
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| 06:55 | <@Alberth> | two andys, now you can work twice as fast! |
| 06:55 | <andythenorth> | oh dear |
| 06:56 | <@Alberth> | :) |
| 06:56 | <TomyLobo> | Alberth you mean tortoisesvn? :P |
| 06:58 | <@Alberth> | TomyLobo: you use a graphical frontend for svn, yet know about log -g which is not even in the short help of git log??? |
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| 06:58 | <TomyLobo> | the svn command line client sucks |
| 06:58 | <@Alberth> | try the git command-line :p |
| 06:58 | <TomyLobo> | all graphical frontends for git suck |
| 06:59 | <@Alberth> | they do for every VCS |
| 06:59 | <TomyLobo> | that should explain my preferences :) |
| 06:59 | <TomyLobo> | oh, tsvn is ok |
| 06:59 | <TomyLobo> | makes SVN's problems somewhat bearable |
| 07:01 | <@Alberth> | I have no problems with svn, just need to be a bit careful with directory shuffling, and branch-updating |
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| 07:03 | <TomyLobo> | SVN is slow, it has a confusing way to make branches and tags, you cannot commit locally with most clients |
| 07:03 | <TomyLobo> | and many times, the SVN working base's size even exceeds a git repo's size |
| 07:09 | <TrueBrain> | did he just say SVN is slower than git? Lolz.. that is just a lie :D (sorry, didn't read anything else, that just made me giggle) |
| 07:09 | <@Alberth> | how is cp semantics confusing? |
| 07:09 | <@Alberth> | and w.r.t. clients, blame the clients, not svn |
| 07:09 | <TomyLobo> | TrueBrain some guy made benchmarks, lemme find the link |
| 07:10 | <TrueBrain> | do a random git clone, and do a random svn checkout ... you will know which one is the slow one :P |
| 07:10 | <TrueBrain> | hint: it is not subversion :D |
| 07:10 | <TrueBrain> | "some guy", now the trustworthy links come :D |
| 07:10 | <TomyLobo> | TrueBrain you do realize that git clone fetches the entire history (by default)? |
| 07:10 | <TrueBrain> | so ....... how does that matter from a user perspective? |
| 07:11 | <TomyLobo> | you can diff and blame locally |
| 07:11 | <TrueBrain> | that indeed is a good reason why svn is slower |
| 07:11 | <TomyLobo> | switch branches locally, retrieve logs locally |
| 07:12 | <@Alberth> | make two svn working copies |
| 07:12 | <TrueBrain> | if that is your measurement of 'slow', than you are very good in comparing apples with oranges |
| 07:12 | <TrueBrain> | concratz to that :) |
| 07:12 | <TrueBrain> | like saying Wordpad is slower than Netbeans :) |
| 07:12 | <TomyLobo> | TrueBrain how about oranges and oranges then... git is also faster than hg on most operations |
| 07:12 | <TrueBrain> | "on most", except the checkout and commit operations |
| 07:13 | <TrueBrain> | which are, in my opinion, the most important onces |
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| 07:13 | <TrueBrain> | but that is acomplete different story .. SVn was the topic |
| 07:13 | <TomyLobo> | no, it's really only slower on a huge commit |
| 07:13 | <TomyLobo> | err |
| 07:13 | <TomyLobo> | add, not commit |
| 07:13 | <TomyLobo> | think hundreds of files |
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| 07:14 | <TomyLobo> | meh the page with git vs hg comparison vanished |
| 07:14 | <TomyLobo> | now it's only comparison with svn :/ |
| 07:14 | <TrueBrain> | its easy to now start comparing Netbeans to Eclipse, but you were comparing it with Wordpad, so .. |
| 07:14 | <TomyLobo> | http://git-scm.com/about#small-and-fast |
| 07:14 | <@Alberth> | haha, yeah, that looks like an objective document :D |
| 07:15 | <TrueBrain> | so your source that SVN is slow, is on a git-specific website? |
| 07:15 | <TrueBrain> | impressive choice ... |
| 07:15 | <TomyLobo> | well, you pick one that proves your opinion |
| 07:15 | <TrueBrain> | open any CLI, do a svn checkout of OpenTTD, do a git checkout of OpenTTD |
| 07:15 | <TomyLobo> | the one that proved mine was apparently popular with the git people and is now hosted by them |
| 07:15 | <TrueBrain> | take a stopwatch if you like |
| 07:16 | <TomyLobo> | TrueBrain you mean it has both svn and git? |
| 07:16 | <TrueBrain> | just read what you are saying .. a page saying Git is better is popular with git people ... owh realy? :P |
| 07:16 | <TomyLobo> | or are you talking about git-svn? |
| 07:16 | <TrueBrain> | OpenTTD has SVN, git and hg |
| 07:16 | <TomyLobo> | and not some kind of gateway? |
| 07:17 | <TrueBrain> | I doubt gateways as such exists, as that would be highly impossible/unlikely |
| 07:17 | <TomyLobo> | github has an svn gateway |
| 07:17 | <TrueBrain> | at best you can import svn commits into a git repos |
| 07:18 | <TrueBrain> | which is not really a gateway in any sense |
| 07:18 | <TomyLobo> | take a look at git-svn |
| 07:18 | <TomyLobo> | it works both ways |
| 07:18 | <TrueBrain> | git-svn is an IMPORT script |
| 07:18 | <TrueBrain> | (and export, but meh) |
| 07:18 | <TomyLobo> | no, that'd be git-svnimport :D |
| 07:18 | <TrueBrain> | I suggest you read up how git-svn works |
| 07:18 | <Beul> | * andythenorth ponders doing trucks as a railtype |
| 07:18 | <Beul> | <andythenorth> oh dear |
| 07:18 | <Beul> | * andythenorth is now considering it seriously |
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| 07:18 | <Beul> | great idea |
| 07:19 | <TomyLobo> | TrueBrain i could suggest you the same |
| 07:19 | <TrueBrain> | you could;but I already know |
| 07:19 | <Beul> | as I discovered yesterday, you can make some pretty awsome features with new rail types! |
| 07:20 | <TomyLobo> | git-svn marks the imported commits so it can reassociate them with the svn repo. it can push new commits easily that way |
| 07:20 | <+michi_cc> | TrueBrain: git-svn is a perfectly good two-way interface. How do you think my commits arrive at the SVN server? |
| 07:20 | <TomyLobo> | magic |
| 07:21 | <TrueBrain> | michi_cc: well aware; but a two-way interface !== a gateway :) |
| 07:21 | <TrueBrain> | git-svn is a import/export tool, automated, hooked into git (pretty neat btw) |
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| 07:22 | <TrueBrain> | a gateway would suggest I can also do a svn checkout of a git repos |
| 07:23 | <TomyLobo> | you can check out svn repos with git-svn |
| 07:23 | <TrueBrain> | and now read what I said, and you see there is a miss-match |
| 07:23 | <TomyLobo> | and you can check out git repos on github with svn |
| 07:23 | <TrueBrain> | hence, not a gateway :) |
| 07:23 | <TomyLobo> | svn.github.com/user/project i think |
| 07:24 | <+michi_cc> | And as for the speed, your mileage will always vary, but checkout/clone is the most unimportant command to measure. I'm not doing a clone every five minutes, but I am using status/log/diff/etc, and for everything that does not operate on the very latest revision, svn is principally slower. |
| 07:24 | <TrueBrain> | michi_cc: heavily depends on usage, and many many many other constraints |
| 07:25 | <TrueBrain> | much more important: it is silly to compare apples with oranges |
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| 07:25 | <TrueBrain> | michi_cc: as it is not SVN that is slow. It is the design that demands other conditions |
| 07:26 | <TrueBrain> | it is like saying Wordpad is slower than Netbeans, because in Netbeans you can open files easier |
| 07:26 | <TomyLobo> | the design is from another time |
| 07:26 | <TrueBrain> | it makes little sense |
| 07:27 | <+michi_cc> | Of course, it is mostly the network that is slow, but from the end-user perspective only the result counts. |
| 07:27 | <TrueBrain> | michi_cc: get a 100/100 :P |
| 07:27 | <@Alberth> | Beul: amazing cablecars newgrf! |
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| 07:28 | <TomyLobo> | the only 2 conditions i'd see that svn fulfills better than git are 1. faster checkout 2. tight access control to the repo |
| 07:28 | <TrueBrain> | euh ... you forget one very important one: |
| 07:28 | <TrueBrain> | centralized |
| 07:28 | <@Alberth> | eh, svn is fatser on checkout now? |
| 07:28 | <TomyLobo> | that's part of 2. |
| 07:28 | <TrueBrain> | it is the reason why you compare oranges with apples .. |
| 07:28 | <@Alberth> | *faster |
| 07:28 | <TrueBrain> | it has nothing to do with access |
| 07:28 | <TomyLobo> | Alberth if the repo is large enough, yes |
| 07:29 | <TomyLobo> | on small repos, git is faster again :P |
| 07:29 | <TrueBrain> | decentralized vs centralized are two very different methods of solving this "VCS" issue |
| 07:29 | <andythenorth> | so how does this FISH thing work? :P |
| 07:29 | <@Alberth> | TomyLobo: small repos are non-interesting, as it is fast enough either way |
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| 07:29 | <andythenorth> | seems that some ships can refit PAX and mail only |
| 07:29 | <TomyLobo> | Alberth yeah, hence i only mentioned the large ones |
| 07:29 | <andythenorth> | others refit all cargos, or freight only |
| 07:30 | <andythenorth> | what larks |
| 07:30 | * | andythenorth wonders how many CMS properties are needed to handle this |
| 07:30 | <andythenorth> | one or two |
| 07:31 | <TomyLobo> | ok, tsvn took 21s to check out a shallow copy |
| 07:31 | * | andythenorth wonders what the FISH rewrite should do about smoke |
| 07:31 | <TomyLobo> | fatal: dumb http transport does not support --depth |
| 07:31 | <TomyLobo> | do you have ssh-based git too? |
| 07:32 | <TomyLobo> | or maybe git:// |
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| 07:32 | <TrueBrain> | have you tried it? |
| 07:33 | <@planetmaker> | you're completely re-writing fish and heqs, andythenorth? |
| 07:33 | <Beul> | Alberth: tnx :) |
| 07:33 | <andythenorth> | planetmaker: converting FISH to nml |
| 07:33 | <TomyLobo> | actually, no |
| 07:33 | <andythenorth> | ideally with no loss of features :P |
| 07:33 | <andythenorth> | due to mistakes :) |
| 07:33 | <TomyLobo> | currently making a full clone |
| 07:33 | <TomyLobo> | and yeah, that takes some time |
| 07:33 | <@planetmaker> | nice, andythenorth :-) |
| 07:34 | <andythenorth> | I'll do HEQS later, but it will be a v2, with new features |
| 07:34 | <TomyLobo> | not surprising with a repo containing tens of thousands of revisions |
| 07:34 | <TomyLobo> | and of course the binary files |
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| 07:34 | <TomyLobo> | git doesn't delta-compress binary files (yet) |
| 07:34 | <Beul> | Alberth, actualy, the new tunnel grf that I coded could (unintentionally) also add cablecars:p |
| 07:35 | <@Alberth> | :) |
| 07:35 | <TomyLobo> | TrueBrain that took like 5 seconds :D |
| 07:35 | <TomyLobo> | git clone git://git.openttd.org/openttd/trunk.git/ openttd-git-shallow --depth 1 |
| 07:35 | <andythenorth> | so I should do mining trucks as trains? |
| 07:35 | <@Alberth> | Beul: those unintentional side effects are usually giving the best result :) |
| 07:35 | <TomyLobo> | it's as useless as an SVN checkout though |
| 07:36 | <Beul> | Well, they gave me the idea for that grf indeed, but ideally I would like to be able to disable them in the tunnel grf |
| 07:36 | <TomyLobo> | mind if i push the full repo to github and see if i can clone it from there faster? |
| 07:36 | <Beul> | Would that be posible currently? |
| 07:37 | <@Alberth> | TomyLobo: I'd be surprised if it is not already there somewhere |
| 07:37 | <TomyLobo> | pushing? sure... but syncing it probably not |
| 07:37 | <TomyLobo> | Alberth likely an old version though |
| 07:37 | <TrueBrain> | have you checked? |
| 07:37 | <TrueBrain> | so easy to widely guess stuff .. but opening the page would give you an aswer immediatly |
| 07:37 | <TrueBrain> | and you will know your assumption was wrong :P |
| 07:38 | <@Terkhen> | andythenorth: I don't think so, I like to be able to run them on normal roads for short distances |
| 07:38 | <@Alberth> | Beul: no idea, I don't speak newgrf at all :) |
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| 07:38 | <andythenorth> | I could make them enormous though :) |
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| 07:39 | <TrueBrain> | s/wrong/wrong or not/, hmm, parts fell off |
| 07:39 | <TrueBrain> | I think faster than I type! Where is the fucking bionic interface :( |
| 07:40 | <@Alberth> | we wouldn't be able to process that amount of information ;) |
| 07:40 | <TrueBrain> | don't brains only work at like 100 bits per second or something silly? |
| 07:40 | <andythenorth> | I think they go faster, but consciousness lags |
| 07:40 | <TomyLobo> | but highly parallel :) |
| 07:41 | <TrueBrain> | new excuse: "sorry, but my concious was lagging" |
| 07:41 | <Beul> | TrueBrain, I think faster than I can do anything, I want a bionic interface to build real stuff, do engeneering calculations, type and make real nice gaphics |
| 07:41 | <TomyLobo> | pushing the entire repo to github tooki hear reality has nice graphics |
| 07:41 | <TomyLobo> | fffff |
| 07:42 | <TomyLobo> | i hear reality has nice graphics, but the user interface sucks |
| 07:42 | <Beul> | lol |
| 07:42 | <Beul> | getting a bit out of hand here |
| 07:43 | <andythenorth> | what happens if I set action 0 capacity to 0? No refits? |
| 07:43 | <TomyLobo> | pushing the entire repo to github took about 3.5 minutes |
| 07:44 | <Beul> | TomyLobo: http://my.opera.com/zomg/blog/2007/03/01/outside-new-mmorpg-from-the-creators-of |
| 07:45 | <TomyLobo> | lol |
| 07:47 | <TomyLobo> | git clone git@github.com:TomyLobo/openttd.git openttd-git-github - 2:24 until i get my prompt back |
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| 07:48 | <Beul> | on a more ttD related note: is there anybody that knows if is is posible to disable certain new railtype objects from construction? |
| 07:49 | <Beul> | for example constructing track |
| 07:49 | * | andythenorth has nml feature suggestion |
| 07:49 | * | Beul railises it sounds quite stupid to prevent track construction in a new tail type |
| 07:50 | <TomyLobo> | apparently the git protocol is faster for shallow copies |
| 07:50 | <andythenorth> | 'is_refittable' is a stupid property for ships; nml should set it automatically if refittable classes exist |
| 07:50 | <TomyLobo> | quite a bit even |
| 07:51 | <TomyLobo> | 28s ssh, 13s git:// |
| 07:51 | <Beul> | andythenorth, good point imo |
| 07:53 | <TomyLobo> | 1:10 until i get my prompt back after "git clone git://github.com/TomyLobo/openttd.git openttd-git-github-gitproto" |
| 07:54 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 07:54 | * | andythenorth wtfs at setting refitted capacity in nml |
| 07:54 | <Xaroth> | TomyLobo: get a faster pc? |
| 07:54 | <TomyLobo> | Xaroth it's reasonably fast |
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| 07:55 | <TomyLobo> | the repo is huge |
| 07:55 | <Xaroth> | define 'reasonably' ... |
| 07:55 | <Xaroth> | my grandmother is reasonably fast |
| 07:55 | <TomyLobo> | lol |
| 07:55 | <andythenorth> | in cb36, nfo var 47 maps to 'cargo_classes_in_consist' |
| 07:55 | <andythenorth> | for the record ^ |
| 07:55 | <TomyLobo> | pheonom ii x4 3.2 ghz |
| 07:56 | <andythenorth> | in case anyone else was playing 'guess the var name' with the nml spec |
| 07:56 | <TomyLobo> | pheonom ii x4 955 3.2 ghz |
| 07:56 | <TomyLobo> | no ssd |
| 07:56 | <Xaroth> | you're missing the point |
| 07:56 | <andythenorth> | I'm rarely waiting on my vcs |
| 07:56 | <andythenorth> | and if I do, it's thinking time |
| 07:56 | <TomyLobo> | Xaroth what else do you want to know? |
| 07:56 | <Xaroth> | your definition of reasonably. |
| 07:57 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 07:57 | <TomyLobo> | it plays all the games i want to play |
| 07:57 | * | andythenorth runs into the 'wtf is the correct weight of mail, goods etc' |
| 07:57 | <TomyLobo> | it doesnt usually lag on everyday work |
| 07:57 | <andythenorth> | anybody care to make bids |
| 07:57 | <TomyLobo> | what else? |
| 07:58 | <@Alberth> | andythenorth: mail is about the same as paper |
| 07:58 | <TomyLobo> | except if someone's mailing rocks |
| 07:59 | <@Alberth> | goods are lighter (mostly just air) |
| 07:59 | <TomyLobo> | or uranium |
| 07:59 | <andythenorth> | Alberth: :) |
| 07:59 | <andythenorth> | so which of the game's inconsistent uses of mail / goods weight should I be consistent with? |
| 07:59 | <TomyLobo> | dear mother, here is the uranium block i promised to mail you. love, your son |
| 07:59 | <andythenorth> | currently this ship carries 52t freight, or 52 bags mail |
| 07:59 | <@Alberth> | andythenorth: the first one that comes to mind |
| 07:59 | <Beul> | Alberth, i beg to differ, as paper wil usualy be stacked much more compact, thus making it heavier |
| 08:00 | <andythenorth> | 1 mailbag = 1t in that case |
| 08:00 | <Beul> | than mail |
| 08:00 | <andythenorth> | brb - food |
| 08:00 | <@Alberth> | heavy mailbags :) |
| 08:00 | <@Alberth> | Beul: some people are sending uranium over the mail :p |
| 08:00 | <@Alberth> | but in general, I agree :) |
| 08:02 | <TomyLobo> | 1:22 to make a full clone through git:// |
| 08:02 | <TomyLobo> | from the openttd.org repo |
| 08:03 | <TomyLobo> | so that's 4 times the time of an SVN checkout or 1 minute and 1 second longer |
| 08:03 | <TomyLobo> | i'd say that's not too long a wait :) |
| 08:05 | <@Terkhen> | with mercurial I keep a clean clone of the remote repo, and then clone all of my repositories from the local "central" repository |
| 08:05 | <@Terkhen> | I suppose that you can do the same in git |
| 08:05 | <@Terkhen> | and that's faster :) |
| 08:08 | <TomyLobo> | Terkhen yep, shallow copy takes 1/4 the time of an svn checkout :D |
| 08:08 | <TomyLobo> | well i didnt measure it, hold on |
| 08:09 | <@Terkhen> | that's on windows or linux? |
| 08:09 | <TomyLobo> | windows |
| 08:09 | <TomyLobo> | on linux it'd be even faster |
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| 08:11 | <TomyLobo> | svn checkout and git working copy+repo are about the same size :D |
| 08:11 | <Beul> | Alberth: speaking of unintended side effects: http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/6687/isitabird.png |
| 08:11 | <TomyLobo> | svn: 74 (86 on disk), git: 85 (88 on disk) |
| 08:13 | <@Alberth> | Beul: there is a much easier way, just make bridges invisible :p |
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| 08:15 | <Beul> | Alberth: that would not be unintended |
| 08:16 | <@Alberth> | TomyLobo: that's great and all, but I don't pick a VCS based on how fast or slow it is. "Reasonable" is fast enough in practice. |
| 08:16 | <TomyLobo> | Alberth i don't, either |
| 08:16 | <@Alberth> | Beul: true |
| 08:17 | <TomyLobo> | it's just that TrueBrain is saying SVN is faster than git at what it does |
| 08:17 | <@Alberth> | so? |
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| 08:17 | <TomyLobo> | he's lying |
| 08:18 | <@Alberth> | TomyLobo: don't you know you can prove anything you like with numbers/statistics? |
| 08:18 | <TrueBrain> | euh .. don't start twisting my words there |
| 08:18 | <TrueBrain> | you said SVN is slow. Which is unfounded, and untrue |
| 08:19 | <@Alberth> | Beul: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2165955/Death-Star-spotted-lurking-near-rings-Saturn---luckily-just-bizarre-moons-solar-system.html does this count? :) |
| 08:19 | <@planetmaker> | I really love these VCS fundamentalists :-) |
| 08:19 | <TomyLobo> | if i wanted to say something unfounded and (probably) untrue, i'd say you're working for tigris |
| 08:19 | <andythenorth> | how about a patch |
| 08:20 | <andythenorth> | I need to have two grfs with the same ID both active |
| 08:20 | <@Alberth> | TomyLobo: subversion has moved |
| 08:20 | <TomyLobo> | oh? |
| 08:20 | <@planetmaker> | Alberth: Beul: invisible bridges are... somewhat problematic. You'd remove them for all infra types. And there's only 11 different ones |
| 08:21 | <@Alberth> | planetmaker: who need visible bridges, they are just in the way to see what happens under it :) |
| 08:21 | <@planetmaker> | Beul: and I'd also like to congratulate you on your nice grf work |
| 08:21 | <@planetmaker> | looks very nice |
| 08:21 | <SpComb> | http://fabiensanglard.net/quake3/qvm.php |
| 08:22 | <Beul> | ty planetmaker, I think Alberth meant makeing bridges transparent not making them invisible like i did with the tracks:p |
| 08:22 | <Beul> | *making |
| 08:22 | <@planetmaker> | invisible = ingame function, transparent = sprite level? |
| 08:22 | <@planetmaker> | hm... both is an ingame GUI option... :-P |
| 08:22 | <@Alberth> | Beul: they are non-visible either way :) |
| 08:23 | <@planetmaker> | but I think you talked about sprite levels, right? |
| 08:23 | <oskari89> | Does NML support waypoints? |
| 08:23 | * | Beul is getting confused now |
| 08:24 | <@planetmaker> | oskari89: no, it doesn't support stations (which waypoints are a special kind of) |
| 08:24 | <@planetmaker> | sadly |
| 08:24 | <@planetmaker> | Beul: sorry, nvm me then :-) |
| 08:24 | <@Alberth> | nml development is not moving very fast, is it? |
| 08:24 | <andythenorth> | not right now |
| 08:24 | <@planetmaker> | sadly, no |
| 08:24 | <oskari89> | May be a big project to include stations to NML? |
| 08:25 | * | Beul also wonders if planetmaker knows a way to disable building tracks for the mew tunnel grf |
| 08:25 | <oskari89> | It would significantly accelerate station projects, though :) |
| 08:25 | <@planetmaker> | oskari89: sure. And tbh, anyone would be our guest |
| 08:25 | <@planetmaker> | oskari89: it's on my wishlist definitely |
| 08:25 | <Beul> | (don't think it is possible without a patch thoug? |
| 08:25 | <andythenorth> | nfo station spec is a right arse |
| 08:25 | <@planetmaker> | Beul: there's no such way |
| 08:25 | <andythenorth> | the station spec lacks sense, it's madness |
| 08:25 | <andythenorth> | as are the docs |
| 08:26 | <oskari89> | And there's very little people who have coded stations :P |
| 08:26 | * | Beul braces for bug reports with URTP grf then |
| 08:26 | <@planetmaker> | Beul: and tbh, a patch I see for that is rather on the line of a flag for the tunnel portal which says "special entrance" which allows to build new objects (or possibly anything) on top |
| 08:27 | <@Alberth> | oskari89: three guesses why :) |
| 08:27 | <andythenorth> | try making sense of this :P http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Stations#Sprite_layout_.2809.29 |
| 08:27 | <@planetmaker> | Beul: which would be 50% of the so-called custom bridge and tunnel heads |
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| 08:27 | <SomeoneMcMe> | Hello? |
| 08:27 | <@Alberth> | hi |
| 08:28 | <SomeoneMcMe> | Anyone what to play on my sever? |
| 08:28 | <Xaroth> | this isn't the place to ask :) |
| 08:28 | <SomeoneMcMe> | :C sorry |
| 08:28 | <@Alberth> | very few players here :) |
| 08:28 | <Beul> | planetmaker, I would shurely agree, but writing patches is beyond my capabilities atm |
| 08:28 | * | andythenorth seeks help with converting FISH to nml |
| 08:29 | <andythenorth> | I have a buy menu string that describes refitted capacities |
| 08:29 | <andythenorth> | can't make my brain figure out how to put the numbers in |
| 08:29 | <@Alberth> | Xaroth: do you know a better channel? |
| 08:29 | <@planetmaker> | andythenorth: similar to openttd strings: |
| 08:30 | <@planetmaker> | STR_BLAH: This displays {NUM} numbers in this string |
| 08:30 | <andythenorth> | thanks. it's wrapped in some if / else condition stuff I need to figure out too |
| 08:30 | <@Alberth> | number{P "" "s"} actually :) |
| 08:30 | <andythenorth> | I'm probably nesting a stack of substrings I think |
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| 08:30 | <@planetmaker> | Right Alberth :-) |
| 08:30 | <andythenorth> | BANDIT does this , but Eddi|zuHause solved it for me :P |
| 08:31 | <Beul> | does using the maintenance_cost callback make a grf incompatible with versions lower than 1.2.0? |
| 08:31 | <Beul> | or will it simply ignore the callback? |
| 08:32 | <@planetmaker> | it will not work |
| 08:32 | <@planetmaker> | unless you include the maintence cost callback conditionally, depending on the openttd version |
| 08:33 | <@planetmaker> | but tbh, Beul: stop caring about pre-1.2.0 OpenTTD ;-) |
| 08:33 | <TrueBrain> | there is no pre 1.2.0 :P |
| 08:33 | * | TrueBrain removes some binaries |
| 08:33 | * | TrueBrain looks inocent |
| 08:33 | <@planetmaker> | a huge load of newgrf things were added in that version which make newgrf developer life so much easier |
| 08:33 | <andythenorth> | eurasia was always at war with eastasia |
| 08:34 | <@planetmaker> | Beul: and the audience plays 1.2.0 or later anyway |
| 08:35 | <Beul> | the reason I would like to be able to use it in earlier versions than 1.2.0 is to use it with CillCore's patchpack |
| 08:36 | <@planetmaker> | Beul: for what it's worth: all NewGRFs I changed since December won't work on OpenTTD prior to 1.2.0 |
| 08:36 | <@planetmaker> | Beul: also ChillCore will create a new version of his PP. Or so I read |
| 08:36 | <@planetmaker> | And the next major OpenGFX won't work on pre-1.2.0 OpenTTD anymore either |
| 08:37 | <@Alberth> | Beul: in open source, anything older than a year or so is dead :) |
| 08:39 | <@planetmaker> | Beul: you mean the maintenance cost property, not callback, right? Or of what thing do you speak of? |
| 08:39 | * | TomyLobo just built 2 airports at the opposing ends of his city |
| 08:40 | <Beul> | yeah, used the worng term once again |
| 08:40 | <TomyLobo> | intercontinentals |
| 08:40 | <@planetmaker> | http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/swedishrails/repository/revisions/5c9850bd1c77/entry/src/railtypes.pnml#L499 <-- conditionally including a property |
| 08:40 | <Beul> | property is what I meant indeed:p |
| 08:40 | <Beul> | ty |
| 08:41 | <Beul> | like this one: |
| 08:41 | <Beul> | @kamnet - surely it won't be too long (tm) that the patchpack is updated to 1.2.1 compatibility? |
| 08:41 | <Beul> | especially (tm) |
| 08:43 | <@planetmaker> | rather this: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=61399 |
| 08:43 | <andythenorth> | converting FISH to nml is quite quick to do |
| 08:44 | <@planetmaker> | :-) |
| 08:44 | <@planetmaker> | it's a relatively simple NewGRF, is it andythenorth? |
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| 08:45 | <@planetmaker> | technically speaking. Except maybe the wood rafts |
| 08:45 | <@planetmaker> | and the many wakes :-) |
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| 08:45 | <andythenorth> | the wood rafts will need special case |
| 08:46 | <Beul> | planetmaker: saw that thread as well would be very nice to have an new clean patchpack from him |
| 08:46 | <andythenorth> | planetmaker: I need to try converting to the new makefile |
| 08:46 | <@planetmaker> | andythenorth: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/make-nml/repository <-- that's my rewrite |
| 08:48 | <@planetmaker> | hm... I just wonder whether it's missing the essential parts :-O |
| 08:49 | <andythenorth> | today would be a good day for me to test it |
| 08:49 | <@planetmaker> | lol. It is missing the dir with the makefile parts :-P |
| 08:49 | <TomyLobo> | why could a Dinger 200 explode at the end of the landing strip? |
| 08:50 | <TomyLobo> | of an intercontinental airport |
| 08:50 | <@planetmaker> | why not? |
| 08:50 | <TomyLobo> | because planes don't normally go up in flames |
| 08:50 | <@planetmaker> | bad weather, bad tires, malfunctioning thrust reverser |
| 08:50 | <TomyLobo> | :D |
| 08:50 | <TomyLobo> | ok, so random |
| 08:50 | <@planetmaker> | they usually do when they hit an obstacle |
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| 08:52 | <@planetmaker> | andythenorth: actually... it's not missing the essential part. The essential part is in a separate repo: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/make-nml-common/repository |
| 08:52 | <@planetmaker> | the first linked one is just an example newgrf |
| 08:53 | <@planetmaker> | which uses the makefile repo as a sub repo |
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| 08:55 | <andythenorth> | so where do I start? :) |
| 08:55 | <andythenorth> | I should rm current makefile stuff? |
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| 08:56 | <@planetmaker> | you could. But keep your Makefile.config |
| 08:56 | <@planetmaker> | Though personally I'd just overwrite and delete unused files |
| 08:56 | <@planetmaker> | names remain |
| 08:56 | <andythenorth> | what's /scripts do? |
| 08:57 | <@planetmaker> | actually, yes, keep the files. and just overwrite |
| 08:57 | <@planetmaker> | the example repo I linked uses build-common |
| 08:57 | <@planetmaker> | that is the scripts dir |
| 08:57 | <@planetmaker> | no need to rename it |
| 08:57 | <@planetmaker> | it's amatter of telling it in the Makefile where to find its parts :-) |
| 08:58 | <@planetmaker> | http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/make-nml/repository/entry/Makefile#L16 <-- there |
| 08:58 | <@planetmaker> | just replace build-common by scripts |
| 08:58 | <@planetmaker> | or let's start from the beginning: |
| 08:58 | <andythenorth> | please :) |
| 08:59 | <@planetmaker> | take that Makefile http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/make-nml/repository/entry/Makefile |
| 08:59 | <@planetmaker> | change line 16 to point to the scripts dir |
| 08:59 | <@planetmaker> | and also mind lines 9-17 |
| 09:00 | <@planetmaker> | Then take all files from http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/make-nml-common/repository and put them in your scripts dir, overwriting the stuff you have |
| 09:00 | <@planetmaker> | and try whether it builds ;-) |
| 09:01 | <andythenorth> | I should set values for MAIN_SRC_FILE and GFX_LIST_FILES ? |
| 09:01 | <@planetmaker> | yep |
| 09:01 | <@planetmaker> | unless you don't generate sprites. Then uncomment GFX_LIST_FILES |
| 09:02 | <andythenorth> | k |
| 09:02 | <andythenorth> | MAIN_SRC_FILE - what's that expecting? |
| 09:04 | <@planetmaker> | the main pnml file which includes all others |
| 09:04 | <andythenorth> | k I don't have one of those :) |
| 09:04 | <@planetmaker> | probably src/fish.pnml |
| 09:04 | <@planetmaker> | eh? |
| 09:04 | <andythenorth> | python build ;) |
| 09:04 | <@planetmaker> | well... that's tricky then |
| 09:05 | <andythenorth> | managed to hack it onto the old makefile for BANDIT ;) |
| 09:05 | <@planetmaker> | especially as I don't know what you want to do and plan to do |
| 09:06 | <andythenorth> | in a nutshell: call the python build script if any deps change |
| 09:07 | <andythenorth> | that will generate a complete nml file |
| 09:07 | <andythenorth> | and lang files |
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| 09:09 | <andythenorth> | bandit uses a Makefile.in which looks like this: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1507/ |
| 09:09 | <andythenorth> | and it works afaict, including for the graphics generation |
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| 09:11 | <FLHerne_> | andythenorth: While you're redoing FISH, would it be possible to make the rafts go round corners neatly? |
| 09:11 | <andythenorth> | I'm open to patches for that |
| 09:11 | <andythenorth> | what's the issue? |
| 09:11 | <@planetmaker> | ok, andythenorth, keep that Makefile.in in the scripts dir like for bandit |
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| 09:12 | <FLHerne> | Looks strange in rivers and canals when the rafts are sliding across the bank :P |
| 09:12 | <andythenorth> | FLHerne: how would you solve it? |
| 09:13 | <FLHerne> | I don't know :P . Is there any way for a ship to know it just went round a corner? |
| 09:13 | <+michi_cc> | Articulated ships! :) |
| 09:13 | <andythenorth> | http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/VariationalAction2/Vehicles#Curvature_info_.2845.29 |
| 09:14 | <@planetmaker> | andythenorth: you need to basically replace the content of this file: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/make-nml-common/repository/entry/Makefile_nml and http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/make-nml-common/repository/changes/Makefile_lng |
| 09:14 | <andythenorth> | ^ claims to apply to ships |
| 09:14 | <@planetmaker> | they can thus be commented out in the main Makefile. But the targets thereing (nml and lng) must thus be re-defined in the Makefile.in of yours |
| 09:14 | <+michi_cc> | So were do you find "adjacent wagon pairs" for ships? |
| 09:14 | <andythenorth> | I wtf-ed a bit at that |
| 09:14 | <@planetmaker> | and I'm coming late for BBQ.... sorry, see you later :-) |
| 09:15 | <andythenorth> | planetmaker: np thanks |
| 09:15 | <andythenorth> | michi_cc: I forgot, it's a train game o/c :P |
| 09:15 | <@planetmaker> | I shall have a look maybe tomorrow morning in the train, andythenorth |
| 09:15 | <andythenorth> | thanks |
| 09:15 | <andythenorth> | no rush |
| 09:15 | <andythenorth> | the conversion is not ready yet |
| 09:24 | * | andythenorth wonders what default model life is for ships |
| 09:24 | <Chris_Booth> | 7,000,000 years |
| 09:25 | * | andythenorth ignore_file++ |
| 09:25 | <andythenorth> | the code probably knows |
| 09:43 | <andythenorth> | Alberth: variable ship speed? Faster only when 100% unloaded? Or proportional to current load amount? |
| 09:45 | <@Alberth> | propoertional for a few km/h ? |
| 09:46 | <@Alberth> | you could do +1 for less than 66% and +2 for less than 33% if you want to do proportional, but 0 if >=50% and +x if < 50% is fine too |
| 09:46 | <TomyLobo> | you could make a physical model |
| 09:47 | <@Alberth> | or if you want 3 km/h faster, one step every 25 % which is probably easier |
| 09:47 | <andythenorth> | I have python to hand, so I can just do straight maths on it ;) |
| 09:47 | <@Alberth> | TomyLobo: yep, right after you provide a patch for non-zero sized ships |
| 09:47 | <TomyLobo> | taking into account the part of the ship that's in the water (and thus friction) |
| 09:48 | <andythenorth> | sounds like an ottd patch |
| 09:48 | <@Alberth> | oh, nml implies no computing by hand any more :) |
| 09:48 | <TomyLobo> | as well as the inertia of the cargo and ship |
| 09:49 | <TomyLobo> | and of course the power of the engine |
| 09:49 | <@Alberth> | don't for get people rowing to make it go faster :p |
| 09:49 | <TomyLobo> | of course |
| 09:49 | <@Alberth> | s/for get/forget/ |
| 09:50 | <@Alberth> | oh, and the amount of fuel on board is also important |
| 09:50 | <TomyLobo> | not to forget bribing the captain to look the other way on some state regulations |
| 09:50 | * | Alberth ponders limited range of ships |
| 09:51 | <andythenorth> | similar to planes/ |
| 09:51 | <andythenorth> | ships can bunker at sea |
| 09:51 | <andythenorth> | civilian planes don't do that :P |
| 09:51 | <TomyLobo> | except in movies |
| 09:51 | <@Alberth> | I don't know how often a ship needs to take in fuel, I guess not that often to make it worthwhile |
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| 09:55 | <andythenorth> | I have to figure out how this interacts with river / sea speeds :) |
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| 10:03 | * | andythenorth wonders if that will happen via automagic |
| 10:04 | <andythenorth> | hmm, seems to |
| 10:04 | <andythenorth> | that's nice :) |
| 10:06 | * | andythenorth needs a volunteer to add ships stats to the CMS :P |
| 10:16 | <andythenorth> | ho |
| 10:16 | <andythenorth> | what causes the ship depot window to change size when reloading grfs? |
| 10:19 | <andythenorth> | Alberth: difference between speed laden / unladen? 3mph? |
| 10:20 | <TomyLobo> | is there some max radius for a city? |
| 10:20 | <@Alberth> | I suggested 10%, which gets somewhere around that number |
| 10:20 | <@Alberth> | but it's a random number, so feel free to adjust |
| 10:25 | <TomyLobo> | my city is kinda shrinking right now |
| 10:25 | <@Alberth> | it's collapsing under its own gravity? :p |
| 10:25 | <TomyLobo> | possible |
| 10:26 | <TomyLobo> | it's at 290k |
| 10:26 | <TomyLobo> | has been almost 300k earlier |
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| 10:26 | <@Alberth> | I don't know about cities, but people seem to be obsessed about them |
| 10:26 | <TomyLobo> | well i restricted myself to one city |
| 10:27 | <@Alberth> | so I am quite sure someone can answer all details about cities that you ever want to know |
| 10:27 | <@Alberth> | quite likely it is already at the forum or the wiki |
| 10:27 | <TomyLobo> | http://tomylobo.dyndns.org/openttd-one_city_challenge.png |
| 10:28 | <andythenorth> | Alberth: I'll make it a fraction set per ship, that will do nicely |
| 10:28 | <andythenorth> | 1.1 can be typical |
| 10:28 | <@Alberth> | @calc 28*1.1 |
| 10:28 | <@DorpsGek> | Alberth: 30.8 |
| 10:28 | <@Alberth> | quite :) |
| 10:28 | <TomyLobo> | @calc floor(pi) |
| 10:28 | <@DorpsGek> | TomyLobo: 3 |
| 10:29 | <@Alberth> | hopefully that did not come as a surprise :) |
| 10:29 | <TomyLobo> | it's engineers' pi |
| 10:31 | * | andythenorth ponders setting 100 discrete values representing 0-100% loaded |
| 10:31 | <andythenorth> | with pynml, such things are entirely plausible :P |
| 10:32 | <Beul> | seems to me like andythenorth is qiute the ambitious type :) |
| 10:32 | <@Alberth> | 11 are many more than enough :) |
| 10:32 | <@Alberth> | Beul: ambitious in ideas, but also practical to scale down when needed :) |
| 10:32 | <TomyLobo> | yay, it's stable above 300k... and down to 299xxx again |
| 10:33 | <TomyLobo> | ffs stop shrinking you silly city |
| 10:34 | <@Alberth> | TomyLobo: what's so special about x493e0 ? |
| 10:34 | <@Alberth> | ie it seems stable at 299k :) |
| 10:34 | <TomyLobo> | that the game is teasing me with it |
| 10:34 | <@Alberth> | or even 1k :D |
| 10:34 | <TomyLobo> | now it went up to 205k |
| 10:35 | <TomyLobo> | 305 |
| 10:35 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 10:35 | <@Alberth> | new building temporarily do not have inhabitants, that might explain your fluctuations |
| 10:35 | <@Alberth> | *buildings |
| 10:36 | <Beul> | I also do not understand the obsession with cities, they seem to grow easy enoug on normal settings. I actualy find it quite annoying to set up a transport network in a city, expand the rest of my network, only to come back and realise all stations are overloaded with waiting passengers and the whole area is overgrown :p |
| 10:36 | <TomyLobo> | while being construction sites, right? |
| 10:37 | <@Alberth> | Beul: there is a setting to forbid towns from making new roads, that helps in not overgrowing :) |
| 10:37 | <andythenorth> | I need to know % loaded, so cargo_count / cargo_capacity |
| 10:37 | <@Alberth> | TomyLobo: I think so, but I don't have the details |
| 10:37 | <TomyLobo> | if they're on a 3x3 grid, you can just buy the places they can grow to :) |
| 10:38 | <TomyLobo> | which is what i do |
| 10:38 | <TomyLobo> | to prevent the city from growing into the mountains |
| 10:38 | <TomyLobo> | before i flatten those *g* |
| 10:38 | * | andythenorth wonders how nml handles range checks |
| 10:38 | <@Alberth> | Beul: ie disallow it, and then build roads yourself where you want the city to grow |
| 10:39 | <@Alberth> | TomyLobo: you know you can load a (flat) heightmap instead, right? |
| 10:39 | <andythenorth> | x...y: return stuff |
| 10:39 | <TomyLobo> | Alberth where's the challenge? |
| 10:39 | * | Alberth prefers random roads and growing |
| 10:40 | <@Alberth> | TomyLobo: flattening a mountain is a challenge? |
| 10:40 | <andythenorth> | hmm, I can just return values of vars in nml it seems |
| 10:40 | <TomyLobo> | before i had those planes, flattening the terrain actually took almost all my income |
| 10:40 | <@Alberth> | it just takes a lot of money |
| 10:41 | <Beul> | Alberth, also prefer the random roads and growing, it's just the speed at whitch it happens that I can't handle |
| 10:41 | <@Alberth> | so you bought planes for the challenge? |
| 10:41 | <Beul> | and yes, I do know that there is a patch for that |
| 10:41 | <TomyLobo> | no, i bought them to make more money |
| 10:42 | <TomyLobo> | once my city was of sufficient size to support a plane route inside the city |
| 10:42 | <@Alberth> | Beul: I don't service towns except where I want to deliver goods and/or food |
| 10:42 | * | Beul loves playiog with cargodist for passengers |
| 10:43 | <@Alberth> | I haven't done that enough yet :) |
| 10:45 | <@Alberth> | Beul: there are also grfs that change the 'I bought this tile' sign to a grass-like tile, which you can put around your city |
| 10:47 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 10:48 | <andythenorth> | return 16 to nml speed cb results in speed 5mph |
| 10:48 | <andythenorth> | which makes no sense :P |
| 10:50 | <andythenorth> | perhaps it's nfo style |
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| 10:50 | <@Alberth> | can't you add a unit or so? |
| 10:51 | <andythenorth> | not supported |
| 10:51 | <andythenorth> | I have to do int(3.2*16) |
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| 10:51 | <@Alberth> | hmm, stupid |
| 10:51 | <andythenorth> | I love it when values are not the values you expect :) |
| 10:52 | <andythenorth> | otherwise the grf would get done really quickly, and where's the fun in that ? |
| 10:52 | <andythenorth> | :| |
| 10:52 | <@Alberth> | perhaps it should depend on its revision number :p |
| 10:53 | <@Alberth> | preferably very slowly changing, so authors don't notice it very quickly :P |
| 10:55 | <@Alberth> | hmm, we sohould add realistic acceleration first then, so we can blame it :) |
| 10:55 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 10:56 | <andythenorth> | using int(3.2*speed) gives me values that are too low compared to the nfo version of FISH :P |
| 10:56 | * | andythenorth wonders how python rounds |
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| 10:57 | <Beul> | haha Alberth, good idea: blame it on realistic acceleration :p |
| 10:57 | <andythenorth> | python truncates towards zero |
| 10:57 | <andythenorth> | so I need to call floor / ceil? |
| 10:58 | <andythenorth> | maybe round() |
| 10:59 | <@Alberth> | int == floor afaik |
| 10:59 | <andythenorth> | seems to |
| 10:59 | <andythenorth> | but round seems to round down also |
| 10:59 | <andythenorth> | @calc 51/3.2 |
| 10:59 | <@DorpsGek> | andythenorth: 15.9375 |
| 10:59 | <andythenorth> | ah, nml might be doing the rounding |
| 11:00 | <andythenorth> | that should come out as 16, but doesn't :P |
| 11:00 | <andythenorth> | gtg |
| 11:00 | <andythenorth> | biab |
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| 11:53 | <Wolf01> | hello |
| 11:57 | <__ln__> | 'qapla Wolf01 |
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| 12:31 | * | MNIM tosses a tribble at __ln__ |
| 12:33 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 12:34 | <andythenorth> | Alberth: max speed to report in buy menu etc - laden or unladen? |
| 12:34 | <@Alberth> | unladen imho |
| 12:34 | <andythenorth> | more logical |
| 12:35 | <andythenorth> | might be more annoying :P |
| 12:35 | <@Alberth> | as manufacturer you don't want to underestimate the performance of your vehicles :p |
| 12:35 | <FLHerne> | Laden - that's how fast it'll go when actually in use :-) |
| 12:35 | <FLHerne> | Probably less confusing for AIs, too? |
| 12:36 | <andythenorth> | some of the existing ships change speed when laden; they report laden speed in buy menu |
| 12:36 | <@Alberth> | could be an interesting experiment, waiting for bug reports "he, the ship goes faster than specs" :) |
| 12:36 | <andythenorth> | otherwise annoying |
| 12:36 | <andythenorth> | log raft does it |
| 12:36 | <andythenorth> | hovercraft does it |
| 12:36 | * | Alberth mostly looks at reliability |
| 12:37 | <@Alberth> | but I am one of the idiots that plays with breakdowns enabled :p |
| 12:37 | <andythenorth> | moi aussi, sometimes |
| 12:37 | <Wolf01> | me too, Alberth |
| 12:37 | <andythenorth> | otherwise it's boring :P |
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| 12:46 | <@Alberth> | consistency is probably more interesting |
| 12:49 | <Beul> | I do not see any problems in defining max speed unladen |
| 12:49 | <Beul> | 2cc in combination with nutracks allready has some trains that allmost never reach full speed |
| 12:50 | <andythenorth> | logic says that |
| 12:50 | <andythenorth> | but ships work differently to trains |
| 12:50 | <andythenorth> | if you buy a log tug that reports 21mph, but only get 7mph laden, you'll be....annoyed |
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| 12:55 | <andythenorth> | I have rounding errors that make this speed varying thing unworkable right now :P |
| 12:56 | <andythenorth> | purchase menu speed is shown differently to vehicle speed when built |
| 12:56 | <andythenorth> | ach may be maths by me |
| 12:58 | <@Alberth> | ships don't have physics |
| 13:05 | <Eddi|zuHause> | andythenorth: report the (un)laden speed in the additional purchase text (via parameter, so mph-km/h switching works) |
| 13:06 | <andythenorth> | could do |
| 13:06 | <andythenorth> | I've already got canal and ocean speed in there too |
| 13:06 | <andythenorth> | quite a lot of speeds :) |
| 13:07 | * | andythenorth is now bored of playing 'guess' with floating points and ints |
| 13:07 | <andythenorth> | this is one case where nfo was just easier |
| 13:08 | <@Alberth> | I am surprised it is that difficult with nml |
| 13:08 | <andythenorth> | the ability to do stuff like 'return: 1 + (foo / bar)' in nml is over-rated and flakey :P |
| 13:08 | <andythenorth> | "Floating-point operations are only possible when both operands are compile-time constants" |
| 13:08 | <@Alberth> | you do give it floating point values, right? |
| 13:09 | <andythenorth> | no, I'm trying to turn them all into ints |
| 13:09 | <andythenorth> | but fractions as ints is...problematic :P |
| 13:09 | * | andythenorth is tempted to do the 'multiply by 8, divide by x' solution |
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| 13:09 | <@Alberth> | I could have a looksie whether it is easily fixable, but not now |
| 13:10 | <andythenorth> | I can solve it brutally with some range checks |
| 13:10 | <andythenorth> | it fails the one-line code game |
| 13:10 | * | andythenorth has babies to bath anyway |
| 13:11 | <TomyLobo> | int fac(n) { return n==0 ? 1 : n*fac(n-1); } |
| 13:12 | <TomyLobo> | do i win? :) |
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| 13:16 | <andythenorth> | probly |
| 13:18 | <@Alberth> | TomyLobo: and now with a lambda function :) |
| 13:19 | <TomyLobo> | cba to look up the syntax |
| 13:19 | <@Alberth> | lambda <parameters> : <return-expression> |
| 13:20 | <@Alberth> | f = lambda x, y: x + 1 f(1,2) |
| 13:22 | <andythenorth> | bah |
| 13:22 | <andythenorth> | this rounding is tiresome |
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| 13:25 | <andythenorth> | Eddi|zuHause: feel like lending a hand? |
| 13:25 | <Eddi|zuHause> | if you can repeat the question in 3 lines? |
| 13:26 | <andythenorth> | sure |
| 13:26 | <andythenorth> | 5 mins |
| 13:26 | <andythenorth> | writing a good question takes time :P |
| 13:28 | <FLHerne> | Has anyone here tried Cinnamon much? |
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| 13:28 | * | FLHerne found it a bit unpolished |
| 13:32 | <Eddi|zuHause> | only in combination with apple sauce |
| 13:36 | <andythenorth> | ship max speed is determined as follows: base speed + (additional speed inversely proportional to % loaded) |
| 13:36 | <andythenorth> | needs to be returned as a cb result, including dicking around with multiplying by 3.2 |
| 13:37 | <andythenorth> | I have 'speed' and 'speed_unladen' available as vars |
| 13:37 | <andythenorth> | (python vars in scope during the build) |
| 13:38 | <andythenorth> | relevant nml vars at runtime seem to be 'cargo_count' and 'cargo_capacity' |
| 13:43 | <andythenorth> | it would be acceptable for the granularity of this to be low, e.g four bounds of 25% each |
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| 13:50 | <andythenorth> | ribbit |
| 13:50 | <frosch123> | moin |
| 13:54 | <Rubidium> | quack |
| 13:55 | <frosch123> | back in the old world? |
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| 13:59 | <@Alberth> | moin |
| 14:00 | <andythenorth> | Eddi|zuHause: ^^^ |
| 14:01 | <andythenorth> | (I also have arbitrary python functions in scope if I want, at compile time) |
| 14:02 | <andythenorth> | I'm thinking of just doing dumb range checks tbh; I was trying to get a return value on a single line of nml but I'm bored of that :P |
| 14:02 | <Eddi|zuHause> | andythenorth: attempt #1: switch(cargo_count*100/cargo_capacity) { 0 : (speed_unladen*100+speed*0)/100, 1..25 : (speed_unladen*75+speed*25)/100, 26..50 : (speed_unladen*50+speed*50)/100, 51..75 :(speed_unladen*25+speed*75)/100, 76..100 : (speed_unladen*0+speed*100)/100, |
| 14:03 | <Eddi|zuHause> | granularity easily varied |
| 14:04 | <andythenorth> | k thanks |
| 14:04 | <andythenorth> | makes sense |
| 14:04 | <Eddi|zuHause> | it's beautiful if it does that :) |
| 14:06 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the parts behind the : should be compile-time constants |
| 14:07 | <andythenorth> | sure |
| 14:07 | <andythenorth> | I'll make it so |
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| 14:10 | * | andythenorth smells that Eddi|zuHause knows which order computers do mathematical operations :P |
| 14:10 | * | andythenorth always puts brackets in, 'just in case' :P |
| 14:11 | <Eddi|zuHause> | not in all cases. but here it's a common case where you learn a few things over time (hopefully) |
| 14:11 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the most important bit is to do the * before the / |
| 14:11 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and that * comes before + you learn in first grade |
| 14:12 | <Eddi|zuHause> | or third grade if you're unlucky |
| 14:12 | <andythenorth> | ok, so speed_unladen is a float, which isn't allowed in a switch block |
| 14:12 | <andythenorth> | I'll trying rounding it |
| 14:18 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 14:18 | <andythenorth> | I'm not allowed to multiply by 3.2 in a switch block |
| 14:19 | <@Yexo> | multiply by 16 and divide by 5 |
| 14:20 | <Eddi|zuHause> | multiply by 32 and divide by 10 |
| 14:20 | <@Yexo> | that only matters if you're going to add 5 before dividing by 10 to get better rounding |
| 14:20 | <andythenorth> | right, those both work :) |
| 14:20 | <andythenorth> | I have rounding errors still though |
| 14:20 | <Eddi|zuHause> | so have (speed_unladen*75+speed*25)*32/1000 |
| 14:20 | * | andythenorth checks |
| 14:21 | <andythenorth> | maybe it's working actually :) |
| 14:21 | * | andythenorth needs to test |
| 14:22 | <Eddi|zuHause> | if you want to add Yexo's suggestion: (speed_unladen*75+speed*25+5)*32/1000 |
| 14:22 | <Eddi|zuHause> | err |
| 14:22 | <Eddi|zuHause> | ((speed_unladen*75+speed*25)*32+5)/1000 |
| 14:23 | <@Yexo> | doesn't matter in speed, the 32+5)/1000 part will be encoded as a single varaction2 action |
| 14:23 | <andythenorth> | works |
| 14:23 | <andythenorth> | ugliest nml code in the world right now |
| 14:24 | <andythenorth> | http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1508/ |
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| 14:24 | <andythenorth> | I could round the speed vars in the python first I guess |
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| 14:24 | <andythenorth> | I need to round 'speed' as well as 'speed_unladen' |
| 14:28 | <andythenorth> | I should add the +5 :P |
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| 14:32 | * | andythenorth now has some 7,000mph ships :P |
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| 14:33 | <SpComb> | isn't that what everyone does the first time they dirty their hands with NewGRFs? |
| 14:38 | <andythenorth> | solved |
| 14:39 | <andythenorth> | http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1509/ |
| 14:39 | <andythenorth> | so the only puzzle I have is why the 'speed' is wrong |
| 14:39 | <andythenorth> | the vehicle speed is 16mph |
| 14:40 | <andythenorth> | but when using a cb and doing the 32 + 5 / 1000 adjustment, I get 15mph |
| 14:40 | <andythenorth> | I could actually live with this, but it puts the config file at odds with the result in game |
| 14:45 | <andythenorth> | @calc 16 * 3,2 |
| 14:45 | <@DorpsGek> | andythenorth: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number. |
| 14:45 | <andythenorth> | @calc 16 * 3.2 |
| 14:45 | <@DorpsGek> | andythenorth: 51.2 |
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| 14:45 | <Eddi|zuHause> | andythenorth: on the purchase list, you probably cannot check cargo_amount, so the switch will produce a random result. you'll need a special purchase list callback returning "speed" |
| 14:46 | <andythenorth> | got that already |
| 14:46 | <andythenorth> | this is something to do with integer maths that I don't understand yet |
| 14:46 | <NGC3982> | derp. |
| 14:46 | <andythenorth> | @calc 51.2 / 8 |
| 14:46 | <@DorpsGek> | andythenorth: 6.4 |
| 14:46 | * | NGC3982 is hungover like a sir. |
| 14:46 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and the last one should be /10, not /1000 |
| 14:46 | <andythenorth> | yup |
| 14:46 | <andythenorth> | although that result should never be reached, so I swapped it for 0 now |
| 14:47 | <Eddi|zuHause> | sounds bad |
| 14:47 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and why exactly don't you do the *3.2 in python? |
| 14:47 | <andythenorth> | I could, I'll still have the rounding error though |
| 14:47 | <andythenorth> | I tried that already :) |
| 14:48 | <Eddi|zuHause> | what's "the rounding error"? |
| 14:48 | <andythenorth> | 51.2 will always be used by the game as 15mph, not 16mph |
| 14:48 | <andythenorth> | for some integer maths reason |
| 14:48 | <andythenorth> | 52 works ok |
| 14:49 | <Eddi|zuHause> | there is no 51.2 in integer maths |
| 14:49 | <andythenorth> | :) |
| 14:49 | <andythenorth> | and the game always rounds down? |
| 14:49 | <andythenorth> | this isn't new, I've just forgotten how to solve it :P |
| 14:49 | <@Alberth> | integer division does |
| 14:49 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that depends on what you mean |
| 14:49 | <Eddi|zuHause> | honestly you're not making a lot of sense |
| 14:50 | <andythenorth> | forget my thinking - here's the problem: |
| 14:50 | <andythenorth> | 16mph * 3.2 = 51.2 |
| 14:50 | <@Alberth> | do you want rounding up? (a + b - 1) / b |
| 14:50 | <andythenorth> | 51.2 used as a speed value in newgrf cb will result in 15mph |
| 14:50 | <andythenorth> | so problem: how do I reliably round up (or down?) |
| 14:51 | <Eddi|zuHause> | so "speed" is 16, and you want the ingame speed to be 16 as well? |
| 14:52 | <Eddi|zuHause> | if you want "round up", then change the +5 to a +9 |
| 14:52 | <TomyLobo> | hmm i was thinking... if i left a temperate map running for a billion years or something, allowed multiple industries of the same type per city |
| 14:52 | <TomyLobo> | i'd end up with a map full of power plants, right? |
| 14:52 | <Eddi|zuHause> | possible |
| 14:52 | <@Alberth> | depends on the industry newgrf |
| 14:53 | <TomyLobo> | none |
| 14:53 | <Eddi|zuHause> | people have been reporting towns full of water towers and banks |
| 14:53 | <TomyLobo> | lol |
| 14:53 | <TomyLobo> | yeah and banks |
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| 14:53 | * | andythenorth is going to assume that rounding up is always safe |
| 14:53 | <TomyLobo> | although... dont those close? |
| 14:54 | <Eddi|zuHause> | no idea |
| 14:54 | <Eddi|zuHause> | tropic banks are different from temperate banks, though |
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| 14:54 | <TomyLobo> | ah, cayman islands, right |
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| 14:59 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the "road vehicle queueing" tooltip should possibly explain what "quantum effects" are |
| 15:00 | <@Terkhen> | it's easy; quantum tunneling, schrodinger box and so on |
| 15:00 | <andythenorth> | Eddi|zuHause: :) |
| 15:00 | <andythenorth> | also, + 9 doesn't solve the rounding :P |
| 15:00 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Terkhen: well _I_ know that... |
| 15:00 | <Eddi|zuHause> | andythenorth: you sure? |
| 15:00 | <andythenorth> | it's a shame that nml cbs don't support values in the same way as props |
| 15:00 | <@Terkhen> | so do I, it seems to be common knowledge and therefore it does not need an explanation :) |
| 15:03 | <andythenorth> | Eddi|zuHause: no not sure, weird results :P |
| 15:04 | <andythenorth> | @calc 57.609/3.2 |
| 15:04 | <@DorpsGek> | andythenorth: 18.0028125 |
| 15:04 | <andythenorth> | @calc 57/3.2 |
| 15:04 | <@DorpsGek> | andythenorth: 17.8125 |
| 15:04 | <andythenorth> | @calc 56 / 3.2 |
| 15:04 | <@DorpsGek> | andythenorth: 17.5 |
| 15:04 | <andythenorth> | @calc 54/3.2 |
| 15:04 | <@DorpsGek> | andythenorth: 16.875 |
| 15:08 | <@Yexo> | andythenorth: rounding up is not always safe, but it's better. Less people will complain if they buy a vehicle that said 16mph and it will actually go 17mph then when they buy a vehicle that said 16mph and it actually goes 15mph |
| 15:09 | <andythenorth> | @calc 51.209 / 3.2 |
| 15:09 | <@DorpsGek> | andythenorth: 16.0028125 |
| 15:09 | <andythenorth> | game returns 15 for that calculation ^ |
| 15:09 | <andythenorth> | rounding the 51.209 I guess |
| 15:10 | <@Yexo> | you can't put 51.209 in your newgrf |
| 15:10 | <@Yexo> | so it'll be 51 there I guess |
| 15:10 | <andythenorth> | indeed |
| 15:10 | <@Yexo> | @calc 51 / 3.2 |
| 15:10 | <@DorpsGek> | Yexo: 15.9375 |
| 15:11 | <@Yexo> | which rounds down to 15 |
| 15:11 | <andythenorth> | yup |
| 15:11 | <TomyLobo> | maybe round to closest integer? |
| 15:11 | <andythenorth> | that will round down |
| 15:11 | <andythenorth> | I need ceil() |
| 15:11 | <andythenorth> | which nml doesn't offer afaik |
| 15:11 | <@Yexo> | @calc ceil(16*3.2) |
| 15:11 | <@DorpsGek> | Yexo: 52 |
| 15:11 | <TomyLobo> | ceil is -floor(-x) :D |
| 15:11 | <@Yexo> | @calc 52 / 3.2 |
| 15:11 | <@DorpsGek> | Yexo: 16.25 |
| 15:11 | <@Yexo> | which rounds down to 16 |
| 15:11 | <@Alberth> | Yexo: how difficult is it to write a reverse engineering routine to compute the right magic value? |
| 15:12 | <@Yexo> | it's already included in nml |
| 15:12 | <@Yexo> | but not available for callback results |
| 15:12 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 15:12 | <andythenorth> | I could import nml to my python build script, use the routine? |
| 15:12 | <@Yexo> | the problem is that in a callback result nml has to know the type of vehicle |
| 15:13 | <@Alberth> | we're talking compile time, right? |
| 15:13 | <@Yexo> | yes |
| 15:13 | <@Alberth> | ie during nmlc run |
| 15:13 | <@Yexo> | it's definitely possible, just not yet done |
| 15:14 | <@Alberth> | that's probably a long list :) |
| 15:14 | <@Yexo> | yep ;) |
| 15:22 | <Eddi|zuHause> | <Yexo> the problem is that in a callback result nml has to know the type of vehicle <-- the switch has a feature entry, right? |
| 15:24 | <NGC3982> | if trains normally load 10% if they stay two days on a station, shouldnt load increase (as long as productions follows) if the trains stays for a longer time? |
| 15:24 | <NGC3982> | normaly |
| 15:24 | <NGC3982> | *. |
| 15:24 | <Eddi|zuHause> | NGC3982: ENoContext |
| 15:25 | <andythenorth> | is that a new reddit thing or something? |
| 15:25 | <andythenorth> | I suddenly keep seeing it :P |
| 15:25 | <Eddi|zuHause> | andythenorth: that's the naming scheme for Delphi exceptions |
| 15:25 | <Eddi|zuHause> | so actually old :) |
| 15:26 | <andythenorth> | most memes are, they just take a while :P |
| 15:26 | <Eddi|zuHause> | andythenorth: it has been used here for years |
| 15:27 | <@Terkhen> | first time I notice it :P |
| 15:27 | * | andythenorth offers a diversion http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgKMGwfo5sg |
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| 15:27 | <@Terkhen> | hi LordAro |
| 15:27 | <LordAro> | evenings |
| 15:27 | <@Terkhen> | how are your exams? :) |
| 15:28 | <LordAro> | exams? finished them a month ago :P |
| 15:28 | <LordAro> | results = 16 aug |
| 15:28 | <LordAro> | current life purpose = university applications |
| 15:28 | <LordAro> | :) |
| 15:28 | <@Alberth> | hi LordAro |
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| 15:29 | <LordAro> | hia Alberth |
| 15:29 | <@Terkhen> | oooh, I see :) |
| 15:29 | <@Terkhen> | good luck with both the results and the applications |
| 15:29 | <NGC3982> | Eddi|zuHause: i fail to understand. google talks about zaphod beeblebrox. |
| 15:29 | <@Alberth> | the results are already decided no matter what you do :) |
| 15:30 | <andythenorth> | @calc 57/3.2 |
| 15:30 | <@DorpsGek> | andythenorth: 17.8125 |
| 15:30 | <@Alberth> | NGC3982: you've not read enough hitch hiker to the galaxy |
| 15:31 | <NGC3982> | and i thought i had |
| 15:31 | <@Alberth> | then you'd know zaphod :p |
| 15:31 | <@Yexo> | NGC3982: if you force vehicles to stay in a station by using a timetable, I'm not sure they keep loading all that time |
| 15:31 | <NGC3982> | Alberth: i know zaphod, much and much. |
| 15:32 | * | andythenorth might have to round a bit more :) |
| 15:32 | <@Yexo> | NGC3982: ENoContext = Error, Not enough Context provided |
| 15:32 | <@Alberth> | LordAro: you were gone too quickly this morning, but I have no clue whatsoever what that code is about |
| 15:32 | <NGC3982> | Yexo: ah, i see! |
| 15:33 | <NGC3982> | Yexo: and yes, it seems like they dont load more then usual. |
| 15:33 | <@Yexo> | so you do use timetables? |
| 15:34 | <LordAro> | Alberth: :) would i perhaps get more help on the forums? |
| 15:34 | <@Alberth> | possibly |
| 15:34 | <NGC3982> | Yexo: yes, of course. i didnt know of any other way to make a train wait <amount> of days in a random station? :) |
| 15:35 | <@Alberth> | press 'stop' :) |
| 15:35 | <@Yexo> | NGC3982: I don't think there is a good solution for you currently |
| 15:35 | * | Alberth agrees |
| 15:36 | <@Yexo> | apart from writing a patch so vehicles keep loading more cargo when they are waiting due to their timetable |
| 15:36 | <@Yexo> | I do think the current behavior is sub-optimal |
| 15:36 | <NGC3982> | i see |
| 15:36 | <NGC3982> | well, ill solve it with more trains. |
| 15:36 | <NGC3982> | usually solves most things |
| 15:37 | <@Yexo> | try full-load orders, those usually work for me |
| 15:38 | <NGC3982> | im using UKRS2+ with ECS |
| 15:39 | <NGC3982> | and the industry level jibberish is a bit confusing :) |
| 15:39 | * | NGC3982 conducts an experiment. |
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| 15:43 | <andythenorth> | \o/ |
| 15:43 | <andythenorth> | accurate speeds |
| 15:43 | <NGC3982> | the thing is (or seems to be), that using full load on trains to an ECS oil field lowers the amount of transported oil. |
| 15:43 | <NGC3982> | thus, lowering the level, thus, lowering the production |
| 15:43 | * | NGC3982 scans for a wiki entry |
| 15:44 | <andythenorth> | http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1510/ |
| 15:47 | <NGC3982> | the wiki entry for the grf doesnt really tell me how transported goods work |
| 15:47 | * | NGC3982 scans for more wiki entries. |
| 15:50 | <NGC3982> | ah, but of course |
| 15:50 | <NGC3982> | since i just change how long time x trains should wait for cargo, they still pick up the same amount |
| 15:50 | <NGC3982> | thus not affecting the transported rate |
| 15:51 | <NGC3982> | ergo ipsum: moar trainz! |
| 15:53 | <Zuu> | If you do "rm -r *&" and then "cp -r ../some_catalog .", is the * of rm expanded by the shell or rm when that command is issued or will some_catalog be removed too if the cp command finnish before? |
| 15:54 | <Zuu> | I realize that the best is to force the shell to expand * before hitting enter :-) |
| 15:54 | <@Yexo> | I'd expect that some_catalog always stays, but I'm not 100% sure |
| 15:55 | <Zuu> | That what I expect/hope too. :-) |
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| 15:57 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 15:57 | <Zuu> | ... It appears to have worked :-) |
| 15:57 | <andythenorth> | default cargos |
| 15:57 | <Beul> | can an if block be placed iside an item block? |
| 15:58 | <Beul> | in NML? |
| 15:58 | * | NGC3982 fails to increase transported goods. |
| 15:58 | <Zuu> | NGC3982: Do you have a statue? |
| 15:59 | <NGC3982> | no |
| 15:59 | <NGC3982> | no such city nearby |
| 15:59 | <Zuu> | If the city that the industry (or station?) belongs to have a statue, you get 10% rating bonus for that station. |
| 16:00 | <Beul> | NGC3982, in my experience, using shorter trains that leave the pichup station more regularly increases transported cargo with ecs vectors |
| 16:00 | <Beul> | have not figured out why thoug, dut it seems to work |
| 16:00 | <NGC3982> | i see |
| 16:01 | <NGC3982> | im already using 5 tile trains |
| 16:01 | <NGC3982> | http://i.imgur.com/FgpmE.png |
| 16:01 | <Beul> | make them even shorter. when production is still low, I use 3 or 4 tile lengt trains |
| 16:01 | <NGC3982> | Beul: with full load? |
| 16:02 | <andythenorth> | default cargo for freight ships should be coal? |
| 16:02 | <Beul> | yes |
| 16:02 | <NGC3982> | Beul: ill set them to load 50% |
| 16:02 | <Beul> | NGC3982, 333k litres is not much indeed, they should be able to go a lot higher |
| 16:03 | <Beul> | is that even possible? |
| 16:03 | <@Yexo> | <Beul> can an if block be placed iside an item block? <- yes |
| 16:03 | <@Yexo> | item (..) { if (a) { property { ... } } else { property { ... } } } <- that is valid |
| 16:03 | <Beul> | ty |
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| 16:08 | * | NGC3982 just tried a zip of jack daniels cola. |
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| 16:11 | <Beul> | what revision number does 1.1.0 have? (or where could I find that?) |
| 16:13 | <frosch123> | it's a tag |
| 16:15 | <@Yexo> | Beul: http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/browser and expand the "tags" directory |
| 16:16 | <Beul> | tnx again Yexo |
| 16:17 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Beul: the revision of a release is very uninteresting. you won't get the release if you check out that revision of trunk |
| 16:17 | <Rubidium> | (AT ALL) |
| 16:18 | <Beul> | I am not planning on doing so Eddi|zuHause, I only what to condionally disable the grf |
| 16:18 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Beul: releases have always "revision 0x80000" in the newgrf version |
| 16:18 | <Beul> | ok, usefull to know |
| 16:19 | <@Yexo> | nml probably does not have a nice way to expose that |
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| 16:20 | <Rubidium> | but isn't saying ottd_version(1, 2, 0, <revision that added the feature you need) inside an if the thing you should check for? |
| 16:20 | <@Yexo> | yes, but that's harder to find |
| 16:20 | <@Yexo> | especially if you use multiple features included in 1.x.0 |
| 16:20 | <Eddi|zuHause> | but then checking for "ottd_version(1,2,0,0)" will suffice |
| 16:20 | <Eddi|zuHause> | since that is larger than any 1.1.x release |
| 16:21 | <@Yexo> | yes, but the 1.1.x releases are suddenly not valid |
| 16:21 | <Eddi|zuHause> | so? |
| 16:22 | <@Yexo> | if features have been introduced in 1.1, so 1.1 can support the grf, checking for 1.0.0r0 will allow all nightlies from before 1.1.0, some of which won't support the features you need |
| 16:23 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i was reading it like he wants a feature that is not in 1.1 |
| 16:23 | <@Yexo> | ok, checking for 1.2.0r0 will allow the grf for every nightly after the 1.1 branch |
| 16:23 | <@Yexo> | which is not the intension, as early nightlies won't have support for the feature |
| 16:24 | <Rubidium> | 1,2,0,0x80000 |
| 16:25 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yes. but the premise was to not bother to find out which revision |
| 16:25 | <Rubidium> | rejects all non-stable releases of 1.2 (nightly, beta, rc), everything before 1.1 and everything in trunk after 1.2 branching |
| 16:25 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Rubidium: trunk is increased to 1.3 almost immediately after 1.2 branch |
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| 16:26 | <@Yexo> | the "rejects beta,rc" part is not so nice though |
| 16:26 | <@Yexo> | which brings us back to: find proper revision of feature inclusion, or, since it's easier, find revision of 1.2.0 |
| 16:27 | <Rubidium> | hmm, though only for the 1.2 branch and 1.2.0 beta/RCs (I think) |
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| 16:27 | <Rubidium> | as 1.2.1 RCs would have version 1,2,1,<rev> |
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| 16:29 | <Beul> | Eddi|zuHause, Yexo, I allready have: if (openttd_version > version_openttd(1, 2, 0, 22713)) { |
| 16:29 | <Beul> | property{ |
| 16:29 | <Beul> | maintenance_cost: 8; |
| 16:29 | <Beul> | } |
| 16:29 | <Beul> | } |
| 16:29 | <TomyLobo> | "openttd_version > version_openttd" :D |
| 16:29 | <Beul> | but aditionally I want to give a fatal error for versions lower than 1.1.0 |
| 16:30 | <Beul> | It looks ridivilous TomyLobo, but it works :p |
| 16:30 | <TomyLobo> | yeah just nice naming |
| 16:33 | <NGC3982> | Beul: i made a ridiculous mess out of it. |
| 16:33 | * | andythenorth does magic |
| 16:34 | <NGC3982> | andythenorth: please spare some for me. :) |
| 16:36 | <andythenorth> | bah |
| 16:37 | <andythenorth> | using {NBSP} to space vehicles names in the buy menu causes horrible side effects |
| 16:38 | -!- | cmircea [~cmircea@86.123.45.180] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
| 16:38 | <andythenorth> | also nml doesn't appear to respect default_cargo_type for ships |
| 16:39 | <andythenorth> | hmm, only wrt PASS |
| 16:40 | <andythenorth> | PASS is in my cargo table |
| 16:40 | <andythenorth> | frick, maybe it's not in this game |
| 16:40 | <andythenorth> | FIRS claims to provide it |
| 16:42 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 16:42 | * | andythenorth is baffle-ised |
| 16:43 | <Beul> | has anybody in here got the latest version of chillcore's patchpack? |
| 16:43 | * | andythenorth solves stupid issue |
| 16:44 | <@Yexo> | not refitable to ships? |
| 16:45 | <@Yexo> | and isn't defautl_cargo_type unsupported anyway? |
| 16:45 | <Hirundo> | It is supported (though wasn't) |
| 16:45 | <andythenorth> | mistake in my code |
| 16:45 | <andythenorth> | don't trust magic :P |
| 16:46 | <@Yexo> | good night everyone |
| 16:46 | <Supercheese> | Night, I guess. Time zones are strange |
| 16:47 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Beul: chills patchpack is based on a really old trunk revision |
| 16:47 | <andythenorth> | bye Yexo |
| 16:52 | <NGC3982> | Beul: there we are! |
| 16:52 | <NGC3982> | Beul: worked like a charm. |
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| 16:56 | <andythenorth> | Hirundo: does nml have an equivalent of string code 1F? http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/StringCodes |
| 16:56 | <andythenorth> | or 01 |
| 16:57 | <Hirundo> | SETX / SETXY? |
| 16:57 | <MinchinWeb> | Is there a way, with NoAI, to find out how much cargo a vehicle is currently carrying? |
| 16:57 | <Hirundo> | andythenorth: why do you need it? |
| 16:57 | <andythenorth> | buy menu offsets for FISH |
| 16:58 | <MinchinWeb> | join #openttdcoop |
| 16:58 | <Beul> | NGC3982, the ecs thingie you mean? |
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| 16:59 | <andythenorth> | SETX isn't found in my nml src |
| 16:59 | <Hirundo> | andythenorth: wasn' |
| 16:59 | <Hirundo> | t openttd modified that it takes the sprite width into account? |
| 17:00 | <andythenorth> | apparently not :P |
| 17:00 | <Hirundo> | damn ' next to enter button :S |
| 17:00 | <Supercheese> | That cursed apostrophe key, leading to so many premature Entries |
| 17:00 | <NGC3982> | Beul: yes |
| 17:01 | <Hirundo> | andythenorth: I can find no trace of it in the NML code or docs, so the answer is no |
| 17:01 | <andythenorth> | I concur ;) |
| 17:01 | <andythenorth> | maybe I should try and patch it |
| 17:01 | <andythenorth> | I recall some discussion about deprecating it? |
| 17:03 | <andythenorth> | grfstrings.py definitely misses it |
| 17:04 | <Hirundo> | It is indeed sortof deprecated and no longer exists except for NewGRFs |
| 17:04 | <andythenorth> | seems like the game should just handle this case |
| 17:04 | <@planetmaker> | good evening |
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| 17:05 | <andythenorth> | why does the depot view window change size sometimes? |
| 17:05 | <andythenorth> | i.e. the boxes in the grid change size depending which ship grfs I have loaded |
| 17:05 | <@planetmaker> | it supposedly adjusts to the ship size |
| 17:05 | <@planetmaker> | sprite size |
| 17:06 | <andythenorth> | makes sense |
| 17:06 | * | andythenorth needs to sleep |
| 17:07 | <andythenorth> | 4am was not pretty |
| 17:07 | <andythenorth> | we can't really deprecate setx I guess |
| 17:07 | <andythenorth> | as newgrf spec may never deprecate things |
| 17:07 | <andythenorth> | so maybe I should patch it for nml tomorrow |
| 17:09 | <andythenorth> | good night |
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| 17:17 | <CIA-4> | OpenTTD: frosch * r24366 /trunk/src/script/api/script_vehicle.hpp: -Doc: Improve description of ScriptVehicle::GetCargoLoad. |
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| 17:56 | <Wolf01> | 'night all |
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| 18:13 | <NGC3982> | if i have multiple trains at a single pickup station |
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| 18:14 | <NGC3982> | what parameter dictates when more then one of the trains pick up cargo simultaniusly |
| 18:14 | <NGC3982> | with wait for full load, of course. |
| 18:14 | <NGC3982> | i notice that it happends, but only sometimes? |
| 18:14 | <Supercheese> | The loading algorithm, in conjunction with how much cargo is waiting |
| 18:15 | <NGC3982> | is it configurable? |
| 18:16 | <Supercheese> | Stations > Cargo Handling > Use improved loading algorithm |
| 18:16 | <NGC3982> | ah, i see. i have "no" cargo waiting. since i have trains waiting at the station, the cargo goes almost instantly to a train. |
| 18:16 | <NGC3982> | Supercheese: thanks! |
| 18:16 | <Supercheese> | But yeah, if you have very little cargo, only 1 train loads at a time |
| 18:17 | <Supercheese> | with the improved setting on anyway, I've never tested with it off |
| 18:17 | <NGC3982> | i see |
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| 18:35 | <@Terkhen> | good night |
| 18:35 | <Supercheese> | 'Night |
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| 19:09 | <Beul> | NGC3982, if irc with improved loading enabled two trains wil start loading simultanously if the cargo is sulpplied faster than the loading speed of the vehicle loading |
| 19:10 | <Beul> | most newer caraiges/busses/trucks/trams have a property that defines how much cargo can be loaded per tick |
| 19:13 | <CIA-4> | OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24367 /trunk/src/ (7 files): -Feature: [NewGRF] Customisable signals for rail types. |
| 19:14 | <Eddi|zuHause> | :o |
| 19:16 | <Beul> | Eddi|zuHause? |
| 19:17 | <Beul> | michi_cc I love you! :D |
| 19:17 | <Beul> | that was exacly what I need to make 'invisible'signals for my cablecars :D |
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| 19:29 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i'd suggest making them not invisible, but instead disguise them as something else |
| 19:30 | <Beul> | well that is why I say "invisible":p |
| 19:31 | <Beul> | I could indeed imagine a couple of problems with realt invisible signals :) |
| 19:31 | <Eddi|zuHause> | indeed :) |
| 19:34 | <@planetmaker> | but they surely will come ;-) |
| 19:34 | <Beul> | well to be honest development from my part might be interupted just as quick as it began... |
| 19:35 | <Beul> | Next week this time I'll be some 10.000ft in the air somewhere above norhtern africa, only to return at the end of august |
| 19:37 | <+michi_cc> | Beul: http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action3/Railtypes#Signal_sprites_.280B.29 |
| 19:40 | <Beul> | Nice michi_cc, I think some railset developers will also thak you for that ;) |
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| 19:58 | <Beul> | michi_cc troll :o |
| 19:58 | <Beul> | :p |
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| 20:25 | <Beul> | michi_cc: Are you using GRF version 8 or container version 2? (You do if you use NML nightlies instead of 0.2) Both are 1.2.0+ only. --> checks NML version --> goes ahead and remove lines like these: if (openttd_version > version_openttd(1, 2, 0, 22713)) { |
| 20:25 | <Beul> | XD |
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| 20:44 | <Beul> | goodnight |
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| --- | Log | closed Mon Jul 02 00:00:54 2012 |
