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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-07-04

---Logopened Wed Jul 04 00:00:56 2012
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01:48<@Terkhen>good morning
01:48<Supercheese>Heh, almost 11 PM here
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03:35<__ln__>happy 4th of july!
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03:37<@peter1138>Indeed, happy Wednesday.
03:38<Supercheese>Independence Day!
03:38<Supercheese>Hmm, I wonder if more Americans default to "Fourth of July" or "Independence Day", my guess is the former
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04:16<Hirundo>Ladies and gentlemen, we've got him! (Higgs particle)
04:16<__ln__>as newgrf?
04:17<@planetmaker>good morning
04:17<@peter1138>I'd've thought Americans would default to "July four", as that's how the film trailers say dates...
04:19<andythenorth>why are the internets fucked?
04:19<andythenorth>are the internets fucked by the higgs?
04:20<andythenorth>nothing works, not here in the office, not at home, not on my phone
04:20<andythenorth>"nothing" ~= Twitter
04:20<@peter1138>It's you.
04:20<Supercheese>If you're in the Eastern US, there's apparently power outages all over
04:20<@peter1138>Twitter's working great.
04:20<andythenorth>probably I'm visiting sites who are depending on Amazon Web Services
04:22<@planetmaker>hi andythenorth
04:23<andythenorth>hi planetmaker
04:24<@planetmaker>what about those lang file errors with fish?
04:25<andythenorth>not sure what causes those
04:25<andythenorth>looks like it's mangling nml / nfo
04:25<andythenorth>let's see
04:25<@planetmaker>no, it's a wrong default lang file. Or rather insufficient header info
04:26<@planetmaker>or possibly a mix-up between english.lng and default.lng. Both exist
04:27*andythenorth looking
04:27<@planetmaker>and I've the feeling that default.lng is the offending one
04:27<andythenorth>it's got "STR_LOG_RAFT_LARGE"
04:27<andythenorth>which doesn't exist anywhere in the nml version, only in nfo
04:27<@planetmaker>hm... though... maybe it's some local issue...
04:27<Hirundo>Both english.lng and default.lng is probably bad... IIRC
04:28<@planetmaker>I just checked that default.lng is in my ignored files... deleting it solves it :-)
04:28<@planetmaker>good that we talked about it ;-)
04:28<andythenorth>so does it build for you?
04:29<andythenorth>time it :P
04:29<@planetmaker>real 0m4.748s
04:29<@planetmaker>user 0m3.614s
04:29<@planetmaker>mind that the build script installs into andy's home dir. Which for curious reasons doesn't exist locally here ;-)
04:29<andythenorth>is that with my dirty shell script?
04:29<andythenorth>oh yes :)
04:30<andythenorth>it's only got one vehicle, so time is not very representative :P
04:30<@planetmaker>ok, should I try to adapt the (new) makefile with it?
04:30<andythenorth>please, if you have time
04:30<@planetmaker>and commit, if it works
04:30<@planetmaker>I may. Or I may not. Yesterday I worked like 17 hours... Maybe better today
04:31<andythenorth>the main deps would be the .cfg file and the pngs
04:31<andythenorth>although...I guess if the build script or templates change, they are also deps :P
04:31<andythenorth>probably everything is a dep :P
04:31<@planetmaker>I'd not use the build script...
04:31<andythenorth>not the shell script
04:31<@planetmaker>well... the py script I do
04:32<andythenorth>the shell script is just a dirty hack for me when developing
04:32<@planetmaker>though it might be good to split, if possible into lang and nml generation. Feasible?
04:32<andythenorth>but might be tmwftlb
04:34<@planetmaker>enjoy :-)
04:48<Supercheese>'Night folks
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05:10<@planetmaker>what should I employ: I want to add a fixed number to the 3rd column of a csv file. sed, awk, ...?
05:11<@planetmaker>hi dihedral
05:25<andythenorth>planetmaker: python :P
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05:28<@Terkhen>I used awk when I was formatting the spanish town names csv data; I dont remember much of it though
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05:32<@planetmaker>andythenorth: excel is no option. I have to do it dozens of times. With different values (which are read from the filename itself)
05:33<@planetmaker>and I need the data in the original format unspoiled except the changed numbers
05:33<andythenorth>I'd use python, but that's because it's the only tool I know
05:34<Arafangion>andythenorth: One trick pony!
05:34*Arafangion would also use python... Despite not knowing the problem you guys are trying to solve.
05:34<andythenorth>sounds like a .split() .join() kind of problem
05:34<andythenorth>and read lines
05:35<Arafangion>What's the issue?
05:35<@planetmaker>I want to add a fixed number to the 3rd column of a csv
05:35<Arafangion>I'd use the CSV parser, and writer.
05:36<@planetmaker>and this task done dozens of times :-)
05:36<Arafangion>The only limitation I've ever had with the python CSV implementation is that it doesn't natively support file encodings.
05:36<Arafangion>import csv; use.
05:36<@planetmaker>file format needs remain unspoiled
05:36<@planetmaker>for further post-processing
05:37<andythenorth>I'd do import codecs
05:37<Arafangion>You can specify the type of CSV you wish to use, as well.
05:37<andythenorth>then just read the raw text
05:37<andythenorth>python csv processing seems to smell
05:37<andythenorth>','.split' worked well for me when I last did this
05:37<Arafangion>Until the day you get an element that itself contains ','.
05:37<andythenorth>in that case, you have a problem :)
05:39<Arafangion>Which is why I suggest using the csv module. :)
05:40<@planetmaker>actually... "awk '{ $4 = $4 + 100; print $0 }' test.txt" might do the trick
05:40<@planetmaker>one line :-)
05:41<Arafangion>It naturally splits on commas?
05:41<@planetmaker>on tab
05:41<@planetmaker>but that's what I need :-)
05:41<Arafangion>So you didn't need CSV!
05:41<@planetmaker>well. Same thing with different separation char
05:41<Eddi|zuHause><Arafangion> Until the day you get an element that itself contains ',' <-- which is why i used tsv for CETS
05:42<Arafangion>Eddi|zuHause: Heh.
05:42<Arafangion>That said, CSV tends to imply *wacked* escaping rules.
05:42<Arafangion>tsv and just about anything else is far more sane.
05:42<Arafangion>Although understandably, people criticise tsv for using 'syntactically significant whitespace'.
05:43<Eddi|zuHause>i'd love to see someone who enters the tab character into an excel or googledocs field :)
05:43<blathijs>Arafangion: It seems to me that standard CSV has pretty ok escaping? How do you escape a tab character in tsv, then?
05:45<Arafangion>blathijs: Typically with the literal \t
05:45<Arafangion>(ie, two-characters)
05:46<blathijs>and do people actually escape \ as \\, then?
05:46<blathijs>Probably easier than the quoted escaping by CSV, yes
05:46<Arafangion>Which does lead to monstrosities... But at least it's a *consistent* monstrosity.
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05:50<Arafangion>Not even Microsoft Excel interprets CSV consistently. :(
05:51<Eddi|zuHause>did microsoft ever do something "consistently"?
05:52<Arafangion>They still only support that standard. :)
06:00<Hirundo>In my experience, excel doesn't understand that a csv file with hundreds of ',' but no ';' might be comma- instead of semicolon-separated
06:02<Arafangion>Apparently Excel sometimes insists on ;'s rather than ,'s for CSV files.
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06:05<Eddi|zuHause>wait... doesn't importing a csv file ask what the separator is?
06:07<Arafangion>Eddi|zuHause: Not sure, I think that depends on the reader, I know that the CSV reader has changed a few times in Excel.
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06:11<@peter1138>Last time I tried to import a CSV into Excel, it needed to be tab separated.
06:12<@peter1138>It doesn't ask.
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09:08<NGC3982>Arafangion: i have never seen that happend.
09:09<NGC3982>afaik, excel versions from "2007" and forward doesnt need tab separation to import CSV completely
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09:32<nido>question; is the libtimidity music backend supposed to work (as in, generate audible music) on non-psp platforms foor version 1.2.1?
09:34<Eddi|zuHause>nido: i'd lean towards "no"... libtimidity is some very outdated fork of timidity
09:36<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think anybody properly maintained it in the last 5 years
09:36<Eddi|zuHause>use timidity, not libtimidity
09:36<nido>in that case I shall take out libtimidity support in the package I make
09:37<nido>would you be interested in the resulting centos6/fedora17 compatible specfile?
09:37<Eddi|zuHause>specfiles are Ammler's business
09:40<nido>i sent a pm
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10:14<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 108287/6
10:14<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 18047.8333333
10:15<NGC3982>the ods of things can be quite perculiar
10:15<NGC3982>that number is one digit away from a number i just recieved in a document.
10:15<NGC3982>seconds before opening irc, reading it.
10:19<__ln__>and you think that's a mere coincidence
10:20<Ammler>the spec in the openttd vcs is quite outdated,
10:22<Ammler>stupid firefox
10:23<NGC3982>__ln__: i cant say im a man of superstition.
10:29<Ammler>nido: you find there also the specs for all the other openttd related projects
10:29<Ammler>easiest would be, if you branch it and submit the diff
10:29<Ammler>but hardly you can make better specs :-P
10:32<Ammler>about sound, I added that to the opensfx package only
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10:33<__ln__>NGC3982: please be a man of apostrohpes though.
10:37<__ln__>they look like this: '
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10:44<andythenorth>TrueBrain: internets says 'no' to openttd in JS
10:44<andythenorth>apparently a very bad and silly idea :P
10:44<andythenorth>at least according to forum
10:44<TrueBrain>I am just really really happy 'those' people weren't around when Ludde wrote OpenTTD 1.0.0
10:44<TrueBrain>or 0.2.3
10:45<TrueBrain>as by their arguments, it was worse than TT
10:45<TrueBrain>so nothing impressive
10:45<TrueBrain>it btw highlights the attitude problem on tt-forums
10:45<TrueBrain>it also made me hit "Sign Out" button on the forum btw
10:46<andythenorth>the attitude problem is what?
10:46*andythenorth thinks it's "wtf has the fun gone"
10:46<TrueBrain>people fail to stimulate others to do better ;)
10:46<andythenorth>openttd in JS is brilliant
10:47<andythenorth>the stupidity of it makes it brilliant
10:47<TrueBrain>the process behind it is even more briliant
10:47<TrueBrain>I am still surprised it exists :P
10:47<andythenorth>me too
10:47<TrueBrain>always makes me smile when people do the "impossible"
10:48<andythenorth>because I started web coding in 1999, I refuse to believe anything works in JS at all
10:48<TrueBrain>like a MIT professor once told us: the impossible only takes a little bit longer
10:48<andythenorth>I'm amazed by a simple popup
10:48<TrueBrain>hehe; Javascript is one of the youngest languages we have
10:48<andythenorth>everytime I use jQuery, and it works *even in IE6* I am amazed
10:48<TrueBrain>do you still hav eIE6?
10:48<TrueBrain>you scare me now
10:49<andythenorth>our clients use it
10:49<TrueBrain>they should be punished :P
10:51<TrueBrain>but with a clearly working C -> Javascript, I am unsure what to expect from JS next
10:52<TrueBrain>a full OS written in JS, I guess
10:53<andythenorth>I once figured out you could write an OS in macromedia director
10:54<TrueBrain>lol; that is scary :P
10:54<andythenorth>as long as you had an OS to run it in :P
10:55<andythenorth>JS proves to me that I am now a technological dinosaur
10:55<andythenorth>I've gone from 'bright young thing' to 'old guy who moans and talks about the past'
10:56*FLHerne made/wrote a paper-tape-fed 4-bit VM with an NXT :P
10:56<andythenorth>I shall have to get a beard
10:56<FLHerne>It was a bit hopeless :-(
10:56<TrueBrain>andythenorth: I already have a beard :D MWHAHAHAHA :P
10:56<TrueBrain>and yes, you know you are old if you have seen a Language been created, grown up, and do amasing shit :)
10:57<TrueBrain>FLHerne: back to 1960s much? :P
10:57<+glx>TrueBrain: like php ? ;)
10:57<TrueBrain>glx: grown up?
10:58<TrueBrain>amasing shit?
10:58<TrueBrain>rly? :)
10:58<andythenorth>php grew up?
10:58*andythenorth spits sandwich
10:58<+glx>remove amasing ;)
10:58*andythenorth actually knows nothing about PHP really, but knows about PHP *developers*
10:58<TrueBrain>Python is a better example I guess :)
10:58<FLHerne>TrueBrain: Not enough sensor inputs for a keyboard (binary keyboard, maybe, but that would be silly :P )
10:59<FLHerne>"Hello World" needed 3m of tape though - LEGO sensors are 'opeless :-(
10:59<TrueBrain>hmm, all this talk, I need a new hobby ...
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11:01<andythenorth>TrueBrain: write some code!
11:01<andythenorth>get a child!
11:01<andythenorth>[any child will do]
11:02<andythenorth>buy a fast car, then break it, then fix it
11:02<FLHerne>TrueBrain: Get a rat :P Just as attention-seeking as a child, but sleeps less :D
11:03<TrueBrain>lol .. "get a child"
11:03<TrueBrain>that is horrible
11:03*TrueBrain walks in a busy store
11:03<TrueBrain>pick up a random child
11:03<TrueBrain>take it home
11:04<TrueBrain>glx: love that URL:
11:04<TrueBrain>For the same reason, "6" == " 6", "4.2" == "4.20", and "133" == "0133". But note that 133 != 0133, because 0133 is octal. But "0x10" == "16" and "1e3" == "1000"!
11:05<+glx>I like the @fopen('', 'r'); example
11:06<andythenorth>wtf is 'mysql_real_escape_string'
11:06<TrueBrain>it escapes a stirng to be MySQL safe
11:06<TrueBrain>you used to have mysql_escape_string
11:07<TrueBrain>but something was wrong with it I guess?
11:07<TrueBrain>and now you have REAL escape :P
11:07<TrueBrain>Namespace sin PHP 5.3 are hilarious
11:07<TrueBrain>It's like: \Name\Space\Class::method
11:07<TrueBrain>and no, the \ doesn't escape .. it is namespace seperator
11:09<Kylie>what if it was
11:09<Kylie>a stringp
11:09<TrueBrain>thin ice :)
11:09<Kylie>how'd php deal?
11:10<TrueBrain>you can do: $f = "\name\space\class"; $i = $f();
11:10<TrueBrain>but I hav eno clue if that works
11:10<TrueBrain>or if you have to do: \\name\\space\\class
11:10<TrueBrain>which would be amusing at best
11:10<TrueBrain>it is DOS with it's \ all ove ragain; I hoped everyone learnt that leason
11:10<TrueBrain>PHP clearly didn't. So here we just go again :)
11:11<+glx>they had to do it differently ;)
11:11<TrueBrain>"php_uname tells you about the current OS. Unless PHP can’t tell what it’s running on; then it tells you about the OS it was built on. It doesn’t tell you if this has happened."
11:11<TrueBrain>HAHAHAHA :D
11:11<Kylie>TrueBrain: lowercase should break and not work
11:12<andythenorth>"133" == "0133" but 133 != 0133
11:12<TrueBrain>dynamic casting going wrong :D
11:12<TrueBrain>it is why I dislike weak typed languages .. I rather work in strong typed :P
11:12<TrueBrain>(and yet I program in Python .. hmm ...)
11:13<Kylie>TrueBrain: reword "and yet I..." please
11:13<andythenorth>I have never ever had a type problem in the languages I use :o
11:13<TrueBrain>Kylie: que?
11:13<andythenorth>PHP leaves land mines for the unwary developer :O
11:13<TrueBrain>andythenorth: like any language tbh
11:14<TrueBrain>it is only 'recent' GCC warns for statements like if (a = 1)
11:15<andythenorth>null < -1 and null == 0
11:15<TrueBrain>again, dynamic typecasting at work :)
11:16<TrueBrain>this article makes it sound much worse than it is btw .. you just have to act a bit more stupid when programming PHP than when you would program Javascript or C :P
11:17<TrueBrain>don't think: owh, array_pop changes the variable I give to him, so array_reverse would too
11:17<TrueBrain>no, just open
11:17<TrueBrain>look the function up
11:17<TrueBrain>and see what it does
11:17<andythenorth>TrueBrain: when is it time for new bananananaas?
11:17<TrueBrain>weren't you going on a holiday or what-ever? :P
11:20<andythenorth>done that
11:20<TrueBrain>welcome home :P
11:20<andythenorth>back to work
11:21<andythenorth>should I get our python 2.4 app ported to something that isn't dead and buried? :P
11:23<TrueBrain>I wonder if I want to write a Minecraft mod or not ... or maybe an Erlang MMO .. sounds fun too ...
11:32<Warod>TrueBrain: There is Erlang MMO already
11:32<Warod>TrueBrain: Something EvE-ish...
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11:33<TrueBrain>there is also a Minecraft mod already
11:33<Warod>wtf was it called... I even registered once but then was too lazy to download the client. :>
11:33<TrueBrain>there are several
11:33<TrueBrain>so yeah .. what can I say
11:33<Warod>Write a poem!
11:33<TrueBrain>I hate poems
11:33<Warod>that's a challenge for a programmer like you!
11:34<TrueBrain>poems are for boring people :P
11:34<TrueBrain>haha, tnx mate :D
11:34<TrueBrain>damn, I need to poo .. bbl :)
11:35<Warod>Enjoy. :>
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11:39<Arafangion>Getting rid of shit is always good.
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11:42<TrueBrain>and good it was ....
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12:40<Eddi|zuHause><TrueBrain> (and yet I program in Python .. hmm ...) <- python is strongly typed. just dynamically typed. (not a contradiction)
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12:43<Eddi|zuHause>C is both strongly and statically typed, but there is only one type.
12:45<frosch123>what's the name of that type?
12:45<frosch123>"stuff"? "mess"?
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12:46<Rubidium>TrueBrain: implement Javascript in OpenTTD, using logic with trains. Then run OpenTTD in OpenTTD ;)
12:51<frosch123>hmm, so what stuff is stored in the map array only for caching, i.e. could be recomputed on load?
12:52<Rubidium>you just need the inital settings, seeds and DoCommand log ;)
12:53<frosch123>well, it should not depend on a certain version of ottd
12:53<Rubidium>what are you trying to achieve?
12:53<frosch123>resp. know the behaviour of all past versions of ottd
12:53<frosch123>Rubidium: foobar asks for townzone for rail tiles
12:54<frosch123>the usual argument is: there is not enough space in the map array
12:54<frosch123>but since we increased the memory usage by factor 64 (?) in the last release
12:54<frosch123>that point does not sound so nice anymore :p
12:55<frosch123>so, i was wondering about adding an extra townid for every tile on the map, while only saving it for town roads
12:55<Rubidium>m6 bits 7..6 : Possibility of a bridge above, in the direction specified
12:56<Rubidium>m2: Index into the array of towns (owning town for town roads; closest town otherwise, INVALID_TOWN if there is no town or we are creating a town) <- seems like it, but isn't really (towns growing into other towns)
12:56<frosch123>yeah, does not work for roads and houses
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12:58<frosch123>single tile stuff which is also inside pools would not need storing the id either
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12:58<Rubidium>m7 bits 7..6: present road types (for road tiles only)
12:59<Rubidium>the rest doesn't seem to be computable
12:59<Rubidium>not sure whether the slope is cached somewhere though
12:59<frosch123>it isn't, but could be added
13:00<frosch123>idea would be to increase memory usage for caches, but not increase savegame size / network transfer time
13:00<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r24374 /trunk/src/lang/korean.txt: -Fix: cargo lists can't have genders (mostly because it's very unclear what gender it would have)
13:00*andythenorth earlier made a mistake in a web form, multiplied value of sales by 100. Made our sales look good for a bit :P
13:01<Rubidium>can random bits on the map be re-randomised?
13:01<frosch123>i don't think so
13:01<Rubidium>then in theory all those random bits can be cached as well
13:02<Rubidium>just need to store the seed and give every tile a byte or so of pseudo random numbers that won't change during the game
13:02<frosch123>err, sorry, i inverted your question, so you need to invert my answer :)
13:02<frosch123>random bits cannot be recomputed
13:02<frosch123>even if they cannot be randomised, they depend on the build date
13:03<Rubidium>frosch123: now they do, but we could change that
13:03<Rubidium>so the map just has a m8 with pseudo random values initialised during map generation with some seed (game seed?)
13:03<Rubidium>but that only works when the random bits aren't changed by anything
13:04<frosch123>this would only affect objects currenlty
13:04<frosch123>and it was already asked to rerandomise object bits
13:04<frosch123>trees and rails already do not store random bits
13:04<frosch123>oh, canals cannot be rerandomised either
13:05<frosch123>i am wondering about the hedge flags of clear land
13:05<Rubidium>those are 'grown', just like water floods
13:06<frosch123>hmm, so far the bridge flags have the biggest impact
13:06<Rubidium>anyhow, trees use pseudorandom based on tile x/y to determine which of the N tree sprites to choose for a particular tree type + amount + age
13:07<frosch123>yeah, we might improve the pseudorandomness for trees, houses and railtypes by adding a random array
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13:35<andythenorth>hi Alberth
13:36<@Alberth>hi andy
13:36-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@] has joined #openttd
13:36<@Alberth>hi Wolf01
13:36<Wolf01>hell... wait for it... o
13:36<Wolf01>it's terribly hot :(
13:37<@Alberth>so you evacuated into the house?
13:37<Wolf01>and turned on my air conditioner
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13:40<Rubidium>frosch123: you could also cache the slope (with foundation applied)
13:41<TrueBrain>Rubidium: will you take lead on that project? :D
13:42<frosch123>meh, foundations involve newgrf callbacks
13:42<Rubidium>TrueBrain: hell no ;)
13:42<frosch123>but, ok, it could be cached for the majority of tiles
13:42<TrueBrain>Rubidium: I doubt it is possible in a 2kx2k map, sad :P
13:42<TrueBrain>BIGGER MAPS
13:43<frosch123>TrueBrain: extent them in the depth :p
13:43<TrueBrain>frosch123: will you take lead on that project? :D
13:43<frosch123>why would you need a 8kx8k map, if you could have 64 levels of subway?
13:44<frosch123>what does leading imply? that i tell others what to do?
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: translators * r24375 /trunk/src/lang/japanese.txt:
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: japanese - 34 changes by TzakShrike
13:48*andythenorth needs new roads or something for these
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14:11<@Belugas>that is what i call a truck!
14:11<@Belugas>no need to wonder about speed limit, though hehehe
14:16<andythenorth>there is one in HEQS, but it's a bit smaller than that
14:16<Rubidium> speeds are fun ;)
14:16<Rubidium>the top one is a truck
14:17<Rubidium>the bottom one is/was apparantly the best rally car
14:18<andythenorth>in a straight line, HP wins?
14:19<Rubidium>220 km/h with a truck?
14:19<andythenorth>even if you're driving something the shape of a piece of cheese, blunt end first :P
14:20<Rubidium>that truck won Dakar by a day
14:23<Rubidium>also, I guess the truck you showed has more HP, but would lose
14:25<Mazur>What has been changed, that suddenly on stable everyone seems to get too long map processing?
14:25<Mazur>32bits graphics?
14:25<Mazur>No, that should be local.
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14:25<Rubidium>suddenly as in since when?
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14:32<Mazur>Last month?
14:32<@Alberth>wasn't there a network setting added to get better control over map download?
14:32<Mazur>Anything I can set that'd help me?
14:34<@Alberth>I don't know what your problem is tbh, you only gave a very global description
14:40<@Alberth>what's map processing?
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14:49<Mazur><Stablean> *** Mazur has left the game (processing map took too long)
14:49<Mazur><Stablean> *** Mazur has left the game (connection lost)
14:49<Mazur>And that 10 times in a row, or after 1-5 minutes if I do get in.
14:50<Mazur>On login, usually.
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14:52<@Alberth> this?
14:53<@Alberth>it's only in the FAQ ;)
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15:01<frosch123>why is it actually called FAQ, if everyone wants the FAA?
15:01<CornishPasty>frosch123: I like to read it as frequently answered questions :P
15:03<@Alberth>or the FGA (frequently given answers) ?
15:04<frosch123>well, maybe the FGA/FAA would just be flaming about reading the FAQ :p
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15:40<andythenorth>is newgrf smoke done yet? :D
15:40<frosch123>we burned it
15:41<andythenorth>probably best
15:41<frosch123>turned into smoke
15:41<andythenorth>burn newgrf!
15:41<TomyLobo>burn the midnight oil
15:41<andythenorth>screw that
15:41<andythenorth>I will be awoken by children at ungodly hours
15:42<@Alberth>beds are burning already
15:42<andythenorth>is underground building done yet?
15:42<@Alberth>yes, and it is all nicely covered up again, you can't see a thing of it
15:42<frosch123>yes, you just can't see it cause its underground
15:42*andythenorth is plotting a particle accelerator railtype
15:42<andythenorth>[no signals]
15:43<@Terkhen>higgs boson trains?
15:43<andythenorth>no, the trains are protons(?)
15:43<@Alberth>too heavy
15:44<TomyLobo>no, they're photons, can have shared orders
15:45<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: would it not be possible to calculate the town zone in the tileloop (fence/pavement-like), and not have the townid available?
15:45<andythenorth>TomyLobo: are they entangled?
15:45<andythenorth>but travelling in opposite directions?
15:45<andythenorth>one unloads when the other arrives in a station?
15:45<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: and what would be the use of that?
15:45<andythenorth>or checking how much cargo they have causes the cargo in the other one to change?
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15:46<TomyLobo>cant have both in the same state no?
15:46<TomyLobo>that'd be a train crash
15:46<andythenorth>reality actually works like TTD right?
15:46<TomyLobo>of course
15:46<andythenorth>it's not 'spooky action at a distance', it's just the game loop tidying things up
15:46<@Alberth>reality is a bit flawed
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: checking in varaction chain (e.g. determining type of fence. noise-wall in urban areas)
15:46<TomyLobo>no one riding a train or plane knows where they're going until the train stops and kicks them out
15:47<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: the expensive part of finding the townzone is finding the town
15:47<frosch123>but the nearest town is actually const during the game
15:47<TomyLobo>k-d trees to the rescue, frosch123
15:47<frosch123>so, it is cheap to do it just once
15:47<frosch123>instead of some weird updating in the tileloop
15:48<TomyLobo>just have a k-d tree of town zones (i'm guessing those are static, right?)
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>so, you take something like a delaunay triangulation, and store the result somewhere?
15:48<frosch123>TomyLobo: no
15:48<frosch123>they change all the time
15:48<frosch123>but if you have the nearest town, the townzone is easy to compute
15:48<TomyLobo>no static size? ah then k-d trees might not be the solution :)
15:48<frosch123>and the nearest town is constant
15:48<TomyLobo>ah you just need the nearest?
15:48<TomyLobo>k-d tree to the rescue!
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>the delaunay triangulation is storage size O(#towns), not O(#tiles)
15:49<TomyLobo>O(logn) nearest-point lookup... not sure if it's exact though :D
15:49<andythenorth>can we found towns currently?
15:49*andythenorth forgets
15:49<frosch123>yes we can
15:49<TomyLobo>founding/removing a town => tree needs to be redone
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>recalculation on town funding is not such a big deal, as it's a rare thing, so performance is a minor issue
15:50<TomyLobo>what i'm saying
15:51<Eddi|zuHause>actually, with a delaunay triangulation, it's not even an expensive operation, because only the direct neighbours of the new town are affected
15:51<TomyLobo>i dont know if it's worth investing time in a sub-linear algo
15:51<Eddi|zuHause>it's a local operation
15:51<TomyLobo>how many towns are there, at most?
15:51<TomyLobo>maybe a hundred?
15:51<Eddi|zuHause>6000-ish on huge maps
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15:52<TomyLobo>hmm ok, that's something else then
15:52<Eddi|zuHause>my gamescript delaunay triangulation took quite a while on those maps
15:53<TomyLobo>i didnt follow from the start... what's your aim?
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>TomyLobo: for any tile, find the nearest town. fast.
15:54<TomyLobo>can you afford, memory-wise, to have one set of towns for each 16x16 cluster?
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123's initial suggestion was: store the townid for each tile
15:54<frosch123>we will likely just add some cache for the whole map size, without any fancy algorithm :p
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>it's simple, but rather inefficient, both memory and time wise
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>(initialisation time)
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>but very fast on access
15:55<frosch123>TomyLobo: we always denied adding more stuff per tile in the past to save space. but since the introduction of 32bpp and extra zoom increased the memory usage by factor 64, we can no longer argue about saving 8MB for tile->townid caches
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>can we make the tiles 16 bytes while we're at it?
15:56*andythenorth apologises :P
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>so we won't have that discussion 20 times over again :p
15:56<frosch123>the new arguemtn is: we can use more memory locally to cache stuff, as long as it does not go to the savegame and thus does not affect join times
15:56<TomyLobo>so for each 16x16 cluster, you could determine the towns that can be closest to a tile in there
15:57<TomyLobo>you could even re-use the lists in these clusters, if they (and that's one likely case) only contain one city or a very common set of 2 cities or something
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: the question there is: does the download size/time decrease warrant the time increase for recalculating the cache?
15:57<TomyLobo>unless it's a phone, yes
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>TomyLobo: the problem with such ideas is that they need a new data structure, while the idea to just save it for every tile can reuse the existing (slightly enlarged) datastructure of the "map array"
15:58<@Alberth>TomyLobo: looked at stored save game sizes lately?
15:59<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: that argument is not valid
15:59<TomyLobo>Alberth noe, but doubling a large part of it is bad either way
15:59<frosch123>it makes no difference to store an array compared to an addtional tile member
15:59<Eddi|zuHause>TomyLobo: afair there's something like a 20 tile minimum distance between towns
15:59<frosch123>and we would not change the tile structure to something not-power-of-two-ish
16:00<TomyLobo>Eddi|zuHause could even use a wider grid then
16:00<TomyLobo>32 or even 64
16:01<frosch123>and if you want to optimise the computation you can first check the towns on a rough grid
16:01<TomyLobo>all the towns in or close to a 64x64 chunk vs all towns on the whole map would still be a lot less to check
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>TomyLobo: but you can have many nearest towns in a cluster, when all the towns are several clusters away
16:01<frosch123>if all edges of a square have the same nearest town, then the whole square have it
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>that can't possibly behave better than a delaunay triangulation
16:02<TomyLobo>to fill in the grid, you could use a bleeding algo like notch uses for minecraft's lighting
16:03<frosch123>are you sure delaunay is the right think to do on an integer-grid?
16:03<Eddi|zuHause>no, but it's the closest thing i know
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>integer-versions of matching algebraic problems tend to be hard. (as in NP-hard)
16:04<TomyLobo>i.e. put all towns into their cells, then have them extend until you hit something that's closer
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>TomyLobo: you mean some kind of flood fill?
16:05<TomyLobo>with 1 overlap of course
16:06<frosch123>that will be weird to do for euclidian distances
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>overlap of what?
16:06<TomyLobo>frosch123 oh i thought manhattan distance
16:06<frosch123>breadth-first works better for manhattan or maximum distance
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>town zones are euclidean, but why would "nearest town" need to be?
16:07<TomyLobo>uh, ok what's a town zone?
16:07<TomyLobo>not the "local authority" thing, right?
16:08<frosch123>oh, you are right
16:08<frosch123>CalcClosestTownFromTile uses manhattan
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>TomyLobo: the rings around the town that determine whether pavement, lights or trees are planted on a road and determins which houses can be placed
16:08<TomyLobo>yeah i know what you mean
16:08<TomyLobo>yeah bleeding could be bad for that
16:08<frosch123>then breathfirst might be an option
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>TomyLobo: but that wasn't the problem that was to be solved
16:09<TomyLobo>yeah, breath first :D
16:09<TomyLobo>Eddi|zuHause what else was it?
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>"breathe in" "breathe out" "breathe in"
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>(is that joke known to anyone outside of germany?)
16:10<TomyLobo>i dont get it and i'm german
16:10<frosch123>sounds like a joke abuot blondes
16:10<TomyLobo>you are now breathing manually!
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>goes something like this: "a blonde is getting told to take out her earphones, afterwards she collapses. the other person picks up the earphones, and hears 'breathe in, breathe out, breathe in, ...'"
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>IRC is a bad medium for telling jokes, though :p
16:12<CornishPasty>Why did the chicken cross the road?
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, the problem was not to determine the town zone, but to determine which town to calculate the town zone from
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>CornishPasty: i never understood why that's supposed to be a joke
16:13<CornishPasty>Eddi|zuHause: it's a double meaning
16:14<CornishPasty>"the other side" refers to the other side of the road, and in a more spiritual sense, the afterlife
16:14<CornishPasty>It's a play on words, but not very funny :P
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>and which part of that makes it a joke?
16:15<@Alberth>the double meaning, for people that think that human language is unambigious
16:15<CornishPasty>It's an antijoke apparently :P
16:15<frosch123>ah, i see, the joke is that people write wiki articles about that
16:15<TomyLobo> oh god
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>if at all, i'd like my chicken "kross", though
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17:26<@Terkhen>good night
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18:01<Wolf01>'night all
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19:58<Mazur>Anyway, that's next years physics Nobel prize sorted.
20:09-!-KritiK [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20:11<Eddi|zuHause>you think so?
20:13<Eddi|zuHause>there's this anecdote how the nobel committee couldn't give albert einstein the price for his theory of relativity, because they couldn't give the price for something they didn't understand themselves.
20:13<Mazur>You doubt it?
20:13<Mazur>Funny, never heard that before.
20:13<Eddi|zuHause>(albert einstein actually got the price for something else)
20:14<Mazur>prize, btw.
20:14<Mazur>price is somethings cost.
20:14<Eddi|zuHause>it's the same word in german
20:14<Mazur>In Dutch, as well.
20:15<Mazur>But not in English, so I thought I'd just mention it.
20:15<Mazur>If only to show my English is better than yours.
20:16<Mazur>WHile my typing isn't.
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20:47<Mazur>My stable login problems might have been related to how I connected. Just now I could get in and get done what I wanted.
20:48<Mazur>No, not that, just checked nad I did not use what I thought I did.
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---Logclosed Thu Jul 05 00:00:58 2012