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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-07-05

---Logopened Thu Jul 05 00:00:58 2012
00:06-!-perk11 [~perk11@46.242.11.118] has joined #openttd
00:07<perk11>someone compiled openttd to play in browser http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ovut2taLdM
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00:12<TomyLobo>how does that work?
00:12<TomyLobo>does gcc have a javascript target now? :D
00:12<TomyLobo>oh crap... no, but llvm does
00:17<perk11>using Emscripten
00:17<perk11>and llvm
00:19<TomyLobo>i can't help but notice that the person who did this apparently didnt share his sources, nor is he required to by the GPL... time for AGPL? :P
00:19<TomyLobo>and uh wtf... that's tnot opengfx
00:20<perk11>https://github.com/caiiiycuk/play-ttd sources
00:21<TomyLobo>i never played ttd, but i'm suspecting he used the original game graphics pack
00:22<perk11>yeah, that's it
00:23<TomyLobo>isnt that copyrighted?
00:24<TomyLobo>or was that opensourced in the meantime?
00:24<perk11>it definitely is copyrighted
00:24<perk11>or why whould community make opengfx
00:25<TomyLobo>history?
00:25<TomyLobo>new stuff?
00:25<TomyLobo>i.e. it might be that it wasnt open back then
00:25<TomyLobo>and kept because it has all the new stuff TTD didnt have
00:25<perk11>I guess it's still not open
00:26<TomyLobo>i'm not gonna tell microprose, but this guy is committing a breach of copyright
00:26<perk11>yeah I guess I'll contact him and tell
00:27<TomyLobo>thanks, i always sound like the bad guy when i do things like that :P
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02:27<@Terkhen>good morning
02:29<telanus1>ello
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02:50<NGC3982>morning.
02:50<NGC3982>im thinking about making a grf for the swedish maps
02:51<NGC3982>swedish scania busses with life expectancy of one or two months.
02:51<NGC3982>..
02:52*NGC3982 is stuck on a broken buss
02:55<@planetmaker>moin
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03:18<Eddi|zuHause>i once was on a bus that almost burned down
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03:22<__ln__>NGC3982: it's bus with one s.
03:22<NGC3982>__ln__: i noticed. thank you.
03:23<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: :o
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07:51<dihedral>http://www.break.com/pictures/whale-tale-2341426
07:51<dihedral>greetings :-)
07:57<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.break.com/pictures/optimus-dayum-2341430 <-- that's one for andythenorth :)
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07:59<NGC3982>sweet jesus.
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09:10<@planetmaker>that's a nice photo and nice vehicles, Eddi|zuHause :-)
09:11<andythenorth>considered that for FIRS coal mine
09:11<andythenorth>hmm
09:11<@planetmaker>:-) +1
09:11<andythenorth>unrelated, I might actually draw a quarry sometime
09:11<@planetmaker>+1 :-P
09:11<andythenorth>I keep thinking there must be a solution to it
09:11<@planetmaker>(easy for me to say :-) )
09:11<andythenorth>without requiring 300 sprites
09:11<@planetmaker>3D models ;-)
09:14<andythenorth>still needs slicing :P
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12:05<andythenorth>lo
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13:19<@Alberth>where did everybody go?
13:19<andythenorth>lo Alberth
13:20<@Alberth>o/ andy
13:20<andythenorth>who else is here? planetmaker Terkhen ?
13:20<@Terkhen>hi
13:20<@Alberth>they are always here :)
13:23<@Terkhen>just busy sometimes
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not here, i'm sick
13:23<@Terkhen>or procrastinating :)
13:23<frosch123>yeah, you are not talking much today
13:23<frosch123>i am not impressed
13:26<@Alberth>hmm, are DVDs supposed to stick to each other?
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13:31<andythenorth>FISH auto-refit
13:31<andythenorth>there are different kinds of ship [details, details]
13:31<andythenorth>but anyway
13:31<andythenorth>pax <-> mail y/n?
13:31<andythenorth>(express ferries)
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>refit yes, autorefit no
13:33<andythenorth>packet ships (have pax cabins and cargo holds)
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>(or: allow autorefit for all cargos)
13:33<andythenorth>packet ships probably refit most
13:33<andythenorth>hmm
13:34<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: doesn't make sense as long as you can't mix them
13:34*andythenorth ponders
13:34<andythenorth>some ships have explicit tanker refits
13:34<andythenorth>some ships have explicit pax / cargo graphics
13:34<andythenorth>others don't
13:35<@Alberth>The case I had was transport of wood and coal in the same direction
13:35<@Alberth>now I have to balance the #wood and #coal myself
13:35<Sacro>Alberth: this is not twitter
13:35<@Alberth>with automagic refit, I'd hope that the game does that
13:36<@Alberth>Sacro: oh, do they use numbers so often there?
13:36<Sacro>hm?
13:36<frosch123>Sacro: cardinals are not only church stuff
13:36-!-Progman [~progman@p57A19A4D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
13:36<@Alberth>#X == number of things doing X
13:37<@Alberth>that some site thinks it's funny to give it another meaning is not my problem :p
13:37<Sacro>now i'm confused
13:39<andythenorth>#autorefit?
13:39<andythenorth>:P
13:39<andythenorth>what's the conclusion?
13:39<andythenorth>yes / no / maybe
13:41<Pinkbeast>Surely not pax <-> mail
13:41<andythenorth>por quoi?
13:42<Pinkbeast>Well, thematically I think of autorefit as representing trivial refits. If I have a bunch of hoppers that were full of coal, and I want to fill them with iron ore... well, I just fill them with iron ore.
13:42<Pinkbeast>But pax and mail handling are very different operations; the ship can't just fill a bunch of pax cabins with mailbags.
13:43<Pinkbeast>And also from a gameplay point of view I think it's nice to distinguish the various cargos, to give them flavour.
13:43<Nat_aS>it's easier than filling maill carriages with passengers.
13:43<frosch123>maybe the ship does not really transport mail, but produces it just-in-time using the pax on board
13:44<Pinkbeast>Pax and mail already start from and go to the same places - with the same distribution algorithm in cargod*st worlds. If they also can travel in the same vehicles, autorefitting as needed... they're even more identical.
13:44<Nat_aS>hmm, veichiles as industries, producing cargo in transit
13:44<Nat_aS>and consuming them
13:44<Pinkbeast>Nat: well, I used to travel in BR guards vans quite a lot but I know what you mean. :-)
13:45<Nat_aS>like ships consuming food and goods and producing mail for all the passingers if it goes on long enough
13:45<Nat_aS>factory ships processing fish in transit
13:45<Nat_aS>uhhh
13:45<Nat_aS>other examples, lol i dono
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: translators * r24376 /trunk/src/lang/korean.txt:
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: korean - 8 changes by telk5093
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13:46<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i think autorefit pax<->mail will never trigger, as the passengers roll in so fast there will never be a case when refitting to mail would be allowed
13:47<andythenorth>point
13:47<@Terkhen>it also does not make much sense IMO
13:47<@Terkhen>passengers need special commodities that mail do not
13:47<@Terkhen>btw nice that you are already working on it :9
13:47<@Terkhen>:)
13:47<Nat_aS>but there is nothing stoping you from throwing mailbags onto first class seats
13:47<Pinkbeast>I think the stuff in UKRS2 that makes pax and mail carriages and trains not just different sprites for the same numbers is a step in the right direction.
13:48<Pinkbeast>Nat: In an unusual situation, no. But you're never going to routinely do that; and since one OTTD journey represents many "real" journeys, it has to represent routine operations, surely?
13:48<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: maybe you want to make autorefit for the same cargo class (i.e. all bulk cargos, or all piece cargos, or all liquid cargos)
13:49<Nat_aS>I'd actualy hesitate to allow water and oil to be reffited
13:49<Nat_aS>simply because you have to scrub the tank down good before doing that.
13:49<Nat_aS>would you want to drink water that came in an oil tank?
13:49<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I think that's plausible
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_aS: yes. but at some point, you need to make a pragmatic decision. or you micromanage yourself to death
13:50<Nat_aS>well the pragmatic decision is not allow it
13:50<Nat_aS>autoreft is for things like goods
13:50<Pinkbeast>I think a scrubdown comes under the scope of autorefit, actually; what doesn't is where some modification to the wagon's structure would be needed (in my view).
13:50<andythenorth>well why am I recoding FISH in nml if we're not allowing autorefit? :P
13:50<Nat_aS>because it will be more efficant that way?
13:51<andythenorth>oh yes, it will definitely run faster in game for example. Good point.
13:51<@Alberth>Nat_aS: milk versus water? There are lots of edge cases, in particular as the cargoes are not known before hand
13:51<andythenorth>nml is about 30% faster in game
13:51<@Alberth>:o
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: how's that?
13:51*andythenorth is trolling
13:52<@Alberth>andythenorth: perhaps you should remove a few +1 - 1 operations :p
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14:00<@Alberth>o/ LordAro
14:00<LordAro>hai Alberth
14:00<LordAro>hmm
14:01<LordAro>i need a way of finding out the filepath, from a ContentInfo...
14:01<LordAro>i realise not many people know about this :)
14:02*Alberth is part of the 'not' group :)
14:02<frosch123>LordAro: i cannot work that way
14:03<LordAro>true :P
14:03<frosch123>it could be in any directory, "content_download", or any subdirectory of "data", "newgrf", "baseset" ....
14:03<frosch123>so, you can only go via the content id and md5sum
14:03<frosch123>check the code which tests whether you already have a particular content
14:05<LordAro>there are things like 'HasGRFConfig' and 'AI::HasAI'
14:05<LordAro>don't really want to have to modify all of those though :)
14:05<frosch123>someone knows by heart, how ottd 0.3 stored subsidies? :p
14:09<LordAro>oh sure. It's... *disconnects*
14:09<LordAro>:P
14:09<Sacro>in RAM
14:13<Zuu>Lesson learned, don't play around with the new firefox toolbar editor. Now my bookmarks are on the web developer toolbar which itself is lost and the option to customize the toolbar have disabled itself. :-)
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14:20<davesauto>hwy guys
14:20<davesauto>hey*
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14:21<frosch123>cars are fast
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14:22<andythenorth>hmm
14:26*frosch123 smells petrichor
14:27<andythenorth>mail <-> goods autorefit?
14:27<frosch123>mail <-> goods <-> valueables?
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14:28<andythenorth>frosch123: it rained?
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14:28<frosch123>not yet
14:28<frosch123>well, it started
14:30<andythenorth>what happened to that 'dirty' class I invented? :P
14:31<FLHerne>andythenorth: yes (mail <-> goods <-> valuables)
14:31<LordAro>hmm. i can get the filename (without path or extension) any chance i can search with that?
14:34<FLHerne>Mail <-> Valuables, anyway. Goods implies bulkier stuff in some cases?
14:34<FLHerne>(eg default set seems to be tinned food)
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14:37<frosch123>LordAro: the filename is not enough to identify the content definitely
14:37<LordAro>thought not :L
14:37<frosch123>all versions of some content have the same name
14:38<LordAro>well, i have the 'unique id'
14:38<LordAro>which is 'GRFID or shortname'
14:38<LordAro>apparently :)
14:39<frosch123>you also need md5sum :)
14:42<LordAro>i have that also :)
14:42<LordAro>(yay!)
14:43<LordAro>http://www.reddit.com/r/talesfromtechsupport/comments/w1fyo/of_puppies_printers_and_why_you_should_always/ <-- Geminii27 has had a truely awesome career :)
14:44*andythenorth ponders allowing 'refit all'
14:44<andythenorth>might be easiest
14:45<frosch123>andythenorth: add random refittability
14:45<frosch123>that makes the choice of ships more interesting :)
14:46<andythenorth>ha
14:52<andythenorth>"This ship may or may not refit to cargo xyz. Feeling lucky?"
14:53<@Alberth>buy 5 ditch 3 :)
14:54<frosch123>i did not meant randomise on purchase :p
14:54<andythenorth>I did :P
14:59<frosch123>anyway, refit-to-everything is boring
15:00<frosch123>alternatively you can allow refitting passengery ferries to coal, but with loading time increased by factor 50
15:01<frosch123>only loadable using hand-carts :)
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15:08<frosch123>andythenorth: what version requirements did you set for firs 0.7.5 on bananas?
15:09<andythenorth>frosch123: 302013859
15:09<frosch123>@base 10 16 302013859
15:09<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 12005DA3
15:09<frosch123>@base 16 10 5DA3
15:09<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 23971
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15:11<frosch123>TrueBrain: what's wrong with the "first 0.7.5" item on bananas?
15:11<frosch123>we have two fs task of not being able to download it
15:12<frosch123>the content gui in game says 350 KiB, while the file is actually about 1MB
15:13<frosch123>even the download progress window says 358 KiB, while the file on disk is way bigger
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15:15<frosch123>oh, via the website i actually get the 358 KiB file
15:16<frosch123>oh, silly me, that's the compressed size
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15:18*andythenorth destroys a form generator
15:18<LordAro>silly question: how do i add 2 strings together in OTTD? i realise there's something different to normal...
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15:19<andythenorth>sometimes magic is too much hassle
15:19<andythenorth>'look at me, I can add a field throughout the app with just changing one dict
15:20<andythenorth>until you want custom cases :P
15:20-!-Chris_Booth[ph] [~chrisboot@31.73.194.32] has quit []
15:20<andythenorth>then the custom case code ends up longer than the non-magic code for all fields
15:22-!-Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>that's why the first thing i did was to allow including custom code files in CETS for any vehicle
15:29<andythenorth>I could have done that here
15:29<andythenorth>"This field is defined elsewhere" :P
15:30<@Alberth>LordAro: add?
15:30*andythenorth was young when he wrote this code originally
15:30<@Alberth>in general, create new space, and use stre* functions to copy into the new space
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15:43<LordAro>Alberth: that so :L
15:43<LordAro>s/that/thought/
15:43<LordAro>hmm...
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16:03<LordAro>gah, why/where is this->filename set to NULL/"" ??
16:03<@Alberth>it has no filename?
16:05<LordAro>apparently
16:06<LordAro>it has a filename when initially downloaded, but it seems to get removed for unknown reasons...
16:08<frosch123>it's the target filename, not the source filename
16:09<LordAro>but they are the same, no?
16:10<@Alberth>good night
16:11<frosch123>is it even the filename of the actualy grf, or is it rather the name of the tar?
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16:11<frosch123>because name of tar has no meaning except for download
16:12<LordAro>the .tar, i think (but without extension)
16:12<LordAro>sucks :(
16:13<LordAro>any other advise as to how to do it?
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16:15<frosch123>still the same as earlier :p
16:17<LordAro>ok, so a combination of md5sum and grfid/shortname
16:17<LordAro>any functions you can point me in the direction of?
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16:20<frosch123>the same which check whether the content is already present
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16:20<LordAro>but they don't return anything :(
16:20<frosch123>then make them return something
16:21-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@95.232.234.29] has joined #openttd
16:22<Wolf01>evenink o/
16:22<LordAro>but there's lots of them...
16:22*LordAro is lazy
16:23<frosch123>then unify them :p
16:23<frosch123>he, you get an opportunity to learn working with mercurial queues, if you haven't yet :)
16:25<LordAro>they're easy enough :P
16:25<LordAro>but involves work :P
16:26<TrueBrain>frosch123: I need a bit more information to answer that question :P
16:26<frosch123>FIRS Industry Replacement Set 0.7.5 11202 times F1250005 GPL v2
16:27-!-ludde [~b@c80-217-210-102.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #openttd
16:27<ludde>hello
16:27<frosch123>hi ludde
16:27<TrueBrain>owh noes, its a ludde
16:27<ludde>how do I play against an AI these days.. do I need to download a package?
16:28<TrueBrain>frosch123: any more info? What doesn't work? How doesn't it work? Where does it go wrong? What does work?
16:28<TrueBrain>ludde: via online content (ingame), download some AIs, configure your game to use them, and start a new game :)
16:28<ludde>TrueBrain: "a ludde" I'm "the ludde"
16:28<frosch123>https://secure.openttd.org/bugs/task/5231 <- we only have that
16:28<frosch123>i cannot reproduce the issue myself
16:28<frosch123>so i was wondering if maybe some mirror is misssynced
16:28<ludde>TrueBrain: which AI should I pick to get an enjoyable game? Is the default AI no longer available?
16:29<TrueBrain>ludde: no clue, and no
16:29<TrueBrain>it cheated wayyyyy too much :)
16:29<frosch123>use "admiral" or "simple AI"
16:29<TrueBrain>frosch123: I have no clue why it would fail. Seems to be a client bug
16:29<TrueBrain>ask Rubidium?
16:29<frosch123>"nocab" if you want a really competitive ai
16:29<frosch123>TrueBrain: two people had the issue, i don't have any issue
16:30<TrueBrain>*shrug*
16:30<frosch123>but ok, let's check whether they are able to post the md5 of the file they got
16:30<TrueBrain>if they can download it, and the file is correct on the mirrors, I can only guess it is a client issue
16:30<TrueBrain>not a service issue :)
16:30<ludde>TrueBrain: do you usually have many luddes in here?
16:31<@planetmaker>:-D
16:31<TrueBrain>ludde: aren't we all in some way a descendant of you?
16:31<TrueBrain>(where "we" is anyone working on OpenTTD)
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>and here i was thinking i know very well whom i descended from, and there comes you with a new theory...
16:32<ludde>maybe
16:32<ludde>can I get it to invert the mouse somehow, when dragging the map
16:32<frosch123>yes, adv. setting
16:32<ludde>ty
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>we used to have an option for that
16:33<TrueBrain>ludde: so what brings you here to play OpenTTD?
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>for somebody who coded this you sound awfully like a total noob :p
16:33<ludde>TrueBrain: it's been so many years, i wanted to try it out a bit.
16:33<Xaroth>o/
16:34<TrueBrain>so much has changed ... yet nothing has changed :P
16:34<ludde>Eddi|zuHause: I stopped working on it like 10 years ago
16:34<TrueBrain>you should try a 32bpp grf, that would be funny :)
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>i know :)
16:34<TrueBrain>10 years? Pff ... more like .. 7? 8? :P
16:34<ludde>TrueBrain: ok maybe :)
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>i'm here for 6 years, and you were already gone by then
16:34<ludde>proably stopped before 2004
16:35<TrueBrain>I joined March 2004, and you okay'd my first patches :P
16:35<ludde>is 32bpp nice? is there a complete gfx set in 32bpp?
16:35<TrueBrain>so easy to remember for me :D
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>no, only very few bits are in 32bpp
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. the development version of OpenGFX+Trains
16:35<Chris_Booth>ludde: join an MP game
16:36<Chris_Booth>make some new online friends
16:36<TrueBrain>so how have you been ludde?
16:37<@planetmaker>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/ogfx-trains/nightlies/r691/ <-- this 32bpp should work (ogfx+trains)
16:37<ludde>i'm good
16:37<ludde>i work with spotify these days
16:37<FLHerne>ludde: Thanks for making the game in the first place :-)
16:37<TrueBrain>isn't spotify done by now? :P
16:38<TrueBrain>you have been working there for a few years now, not?
16:38<ludde>yes, since 2006/2007
16:38<TrueBrain>I remember you promoted it here a few years ago :D
16:38<TrueBrain>today I read in a tech-site in this country that the movie business should take a hard look how Spotify changed how music is downloaded, from illegal to legal
16:39<TrueBrain>and come with their own variant to make that happen for movies
16:39<Xaroth>shame they went full up hooking into fb though, but i can understand it from their side
16:39<TrueBrain>instead of bitching about the illegal downloads :P
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16:40<Xaroth>heh, his host is IN FULL CAPS
16:40<TrueBrain>I told him 2 days ago
16:40<TrueBrain>some sysop got bored I guess .. its NewYork ..
16:40<Xaroth>yeh
16:40<Xaroth>land of skyscrapers
16:42<TrueBrain>time to sleep; nice to see you again ludde, and enjoy a game of TT :D
16:43<LordAro>:O ludde
16:44*NGC3982 takes on the job of creating a decent android port.
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: there was actually a study here that said the total amount collected through punishing illegal downloads actually surpasses the total amount collected for the whole music industry
16:44<Xaroth>port of what?
16:45<frosch123>Xaroth: javascript
16:45-!-KritiK [~Maxim@95-24-122-242.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd
16:45<Xaroth>frosch123: cows
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>he means run android with a NAND-signals-processor in OpenTTD :)
16:47<NGC3982>:D
16:48<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: i would not be impressed by that :p
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16:48<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: yes. it would be totally slow :p
16:52<FLHerne>I wonder if it would be possible to simulate Minecraft on OTTD :P
16:52<FLHerne>Would be the opposite of the simulate-everything-in Minecraft mania... :D
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: we've had that for way longer than minecraft exists
16:54<NGC3982>planetmaker: http://scienceblog.com/55392/astronomers-discover-houdini-like-vanishing-act-in-space/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+scienceblogrssfeed+%28ScienceBlog.com%29
16:54<NGC3982>planetmaker: have you read about this?
16:56<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: The ability to simulate Minecraft, or the obsession to simulate things with it? Or both :P ?
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>yes.
16:57<FLHerne>...?
16:58*andythenorth would simulate pixel generation
17:00*andythenorth would simulator going to sleep
17:00<andythenorth>bye
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17:06<frosch123>night
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17:10<@Terkhen>good night
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18:19<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Fri Jul 06 00:00:58 2012