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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-07-07

---Logopened Sat Jul 07 00:01:02 2012
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02:39*andythenorth contempates a frosch246
02:40<andythenorth>* contemplates
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02:49-!-mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ
02:50<frosch123>morning albert
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03:03<@Terkhen>good morning
03:04<Wakou>Hi folks
03:05<Wakou>Do newgrfs auto-update if there is a new version?
03:05<@Alberth>no, openttd does not phone home unless you tell it to
03:05<@Terkhen>as long as the author uploads the updated version to the online content and you click on "update all content", they will update
03:05<@Alberth>also, in running games, updating newgrfs is not possible
03:06<@Alberth>you you can use newer versions only in a new game
03:06<Wakou>So if one of you clever types is working on say 32pp graphics, how do I get them?
03:07<andythenorth>is new FISH done yet?
03:07<@Alberth>download the newgrf, install it from the intro menu, and start a new game, would be the way
03:07<@Terkhen>andythenorth: andythenorth is the person who develops FISH, give him a highlight and he'll answer you when he's not busy
03:08<@Alberth>hi andy, he was shipping stuff, but it seemed not fishy
03:10<@Alberth>Wakou: normally, new releases are also posted in the forum
03:10*andythenorth wonders if it's ok to bug andythenorth about FISH
03:12<@Alberth>he's a friendly chap, just tends to wander off every now and then to take care of RL stuff
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03:12*andythenorth wonders where the baby is going
03:12<andythenorth>he can only crawl backwards right now
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03:13<andythenorth>think he's getting stuck behind a door
03:13<@Alberth>you should learn him to switch gears :)
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03:14<@Alberth>teach, even :)
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03:21<Wolf01>morning o/
03:22<dihedral>good morning
03:23<@Terkhen>good morning dihedral and Wolf01
03:25<dihedral>I have been thinking about FS #4632 and the more I look at it, the more I come to the conclusion not to change it :-P
03:27<@Alberth>the problem was querying company money?
03:27<dihedral>company value
03:28<dihedral>I was trying to find a suitable place in the CompanyMonthlyLoop when looping over all companies is done already anyway, in order to call c.cur_economy.company_value = CalculateCompanyValue(c);
03:28<dihedral>and use c.cur_economy.company_value then also in the output of the console command, and provide access to the value to the game scripts
03:29<dihedral>but then the performance field of cur_economy would need updating also
03:30<@Alberth>ah, yes, I was wondering whether a script could get it, as it can become a company, but not, apparently
03:30<dihedral>the only other place where the value is realtime, is in the company details window on the client side
03:31<Wakou>Alberth, sorry to be an idiot, but I have eg
03:31<@Alberth>people should use a web cam :)
03:31<Wakou>All seem to be empty files?
03:31<dihedral>Alberth, LOL
03:32<@Alberth>Wakou: seems that way
03:32<Wakou>So my r691 is the last working one?
03:32<@Terkhen>Wakou: you might want to ask at the OpenGFX+ Trains thread
03:32*Terkhen does not know which one work and which one does not
03:32<Wakou>Terkhen: Alberth TY
03:32<@Alberth>Wakou: r691 rings a bell with me
03:33<@Alberth>There are some problems w.r.t. storage at the site
03:33<@Terkhen>but if we judge from file size... yes, r691 looks more correct than newer ones
03:35<@Terkhen>Wakou: I remember something about a backup server holding newer nightlies; if I'm not misremembering the link should be at the forum thread
03:35<@Alberth> <-- Wakou
03:37<Wakou>Alberth: TY..
03:38<@Alberth>iirc, you may also want to investigate the new eGRVTS, it was also updated with 32bpp I think
03:39<@Alberth>or at least, there were discussions about it, and it got resolved :)
03:39<Wakou>I have asked before, but in case other people are here, is there a way, (CLI option?) to disable the sounds at the 'splash screen' stage.. or even 'pause' the splash screen?
03:40<@Alberth>not possible afaik
03:44<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: you know what would be useful? if you could comment a revision directly (e.g. have a button to create a ticket for this revision)
03:45<dihedral>and link it back to the view of the revision :-P
03:45<dihedral>i.e. this revision has following tickets :-P
03:54<Eddi|zuHause>well, that is already possible (if there is already a ticket, you can link the revision to it)
03:56<Eddi|zuHause>(by giving the ticket number in the commit message)
03:59<dihedral>uh - ah, ok :)
03:59<@planetmaker>Fix #4302 (r234): Fixed stuff
04:01<Eddi|zuHause>there's also a variant where you don't close the ticket, but i forgot which keywords to use there
04:02<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: I activated the module "code reviews" now with CETS. Now browse the repo and find in the far right the possibility to open a review for that particular file and revision
04:02<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: thanks, will check it out later
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04:05<@planetmaker>wrt closing: A commit message starting with either of "fixes,closes,fix,close,bug,fixed" closes
04:05<@planetmaker>a commit message with either of "refs,references,Issue,add,updated,part of,part,*" references (thus anything which reads like rXXX)
04:06<@planetmaker>uhm... not rXXX but #XXX
04:07<Eddi|zuHause>i think the trac plugin that i once used allowed things like (fix #AAA, ref #BBB) where it closes one ticket and leaves open the other
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04:07<@planetmaker>that might not be feasible here now
04:07<Eddi|zuHause>not sure if this one does that
04:07<@planetmaker>but I didn't try
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04:14<Eddi|zuHause>i vaguely remember the documentation saying it did not
04:14<Eddi|zuHause>but i'm really not sure
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04:25<andythenorth>special cases :P
04:25<andythenorth>"special cases will be the death of your nice framework"
04:31<andythenorth>why did I make hydrofoils lift out of the water when they are at speed? :P
04:31<andythenorth>that's a whole extra template :P
04:37-!-cmircea_ is now known as cmircea
04:37<cmircea>is TrueBrain around?
04:37<cmircea>!seen TrueBrain
04:37<Rubidium>he's like Shroedinger's cat
04:37<cmircea>bot commands start with?
04:38<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: he's either here or not here, but every time you actively look for him, he's gone?
04:38<Rubidium>basically, yes ;)
04:38<@Alberth>cmircea: the last time he said something is not much of an indiaction whether he is around
04:39<cmircea>Alberth, true
04:39<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: but if it's several weeks or months ago, it might indicate rather not :(
04:39<Rubidium>also, it's a meta question for the real question you wanted to ask
04:40<Eddi|zuHause>well, this is also a metadiscussion :)
04:40<@Alberth>yeah, if you want something of him, just state what you want, and then wait
04:40<Eddi|zuHause>so he got what he asked for :)
04:40<Eddi|zuHause>i just read "and then quit" :p
04:41<cmircea>Alberth, TrueBrain, well this:
04:42<@Alberth>andythenorth: ^ you involved in this too?
04:43<andythenorth>yes / not really
04:43<@Alberth>cmircea: in general, it is much better to ask in general, then just for a single person, unless you KNOW he's the only one that can give you answers
04:43<cmircea>Alberth, I asked on the forums, just wanted to point him to that.
04:44<andythenorth>he was around yesterday or so
04:44<andythenorth>he'll be here when he wants to be here ;) And otherwise not
04:44<Rubidium>well, two main things:
04:44<Rubidium>#1 we run our own server, so I see no need to use other external services to run a part of our website
04:45<Rubidium>#2 the server doesn't run Windows, so Microsoft technology might not be that well supported (if supported at all)
04:45<cmircea>Rubidium, Mono.
04:45<Rubidium>and then some minor thing:
04:46<Rubidium>#3 you need to implement the 'look' of the website again, thus significantly increasing the amount of work
04:46<Rubidium>#4 currently it's implemented in django and I think it will stay that way in the forseeable future
04:46<cmircea>Rubidium, TB hinted that the current design is terrible and should be changed though.
04:47<cmircea>Rubidium, fair points though. Mono does run MVC 3 web apps just fine though.
04:47<Eddi|zuHause>"design" might have referred to the code, not the visual stuff
04:47<Rubidium>cmircea: yes, so an ill designed .NET application must be written in something else?
04:47<Rubidium>(for it to become well designed)
04:47<cmircea>Eddi|zuHause, no, the look: "For night and year BaNaNaS has a frontend. It is ugly. It is terrible. I have seen all kind of words describing it, most my own. Sadly, I am not a designer, nor do I pretend to be one"
04:48<cmircea>Rubidium, not really, but it was an offer.
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04:48<andythenorth>TB said it would stay in Django
04:48<andythenorth>I asked him
04:48<andythenorth>means I have to learn Django :P
04:48<Rubidium>cmircea: reading that quote, the main thing TB seems to be asking for is the (user interface) design
04:48<cmircea>Yeah I know.
04:49*andythenorth wtfs at something local
04:50*Rubidium wonders whether that's actual (baby) shit hitting an actual fan ;)
04:50<andythenorth>numbers cannot be identifiers in nml :P
04:50<@Alberth>they are already used as numbers :)
04:51<andythenorth>how droll :P
04:52<cmircea>Rubidium, but yeah, BaNaNaS needs significant changes. Right now I don't see it as more than a directory on steroids.
04:52<cmircea>Usable... but not great.
04:53*andythenorth deliberately breaks the nml sprite templates :P
04:53<@Alberth>start with a design of the UI?
04:53*Alberth gives andythenorth some glue
04:53<andythenorth>don't start with ui design ;)
04:53<andythenorth>what the entities in play?
04:53<andythenorth>what workflows must be supported?
04:54<andythenorth>workflow / fun :P
04:54<@Alberth>that's not design?
04:54<andythenorth>it is to me :)
04:54<@Alberth>I fully agree with that :)
04:54*andythenorth causes nml assertions
04:54<@Alberth>NML bugs!
04:55<andythenorth>my fault
04:55<@Alberth>it's still a bug, as NML should not assert, but give you an error message
04:57<andythenorth>yeah, it's not making debugging easy :)
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04:58<andythenorth>kind of stumped right now
05:02<@Alberth>add a print repr(string_id) just above the assert
05:03<@Alberth>isn't there an option to dump the stack trace?
05:04<@Alberth>yes, add an -s option (--stack)
05:04<andythenorth>ok so it was missing strings
05:05<andythenorth>not sure how to patch nml correctly to warn of that
05:05<Hirundo>Just file a bug report
05:05<@Alberth>can you make an example spec?
05:05<Hirundo>And of course, thou shalt not have missing strings
05:06<andythenorth>I can post instructions on how to reproduce :P
05:06<@Alberth>"hire andy for testing" :D
05:06<andythenorth>feel like I should patch nml for this, but I only have 2-3 mins at a time for coding
05:06<andythenorth>then I get interrupted
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05:11<@Alberth>given there is an assert here, there should be a check before somewhere to catch your case.
05:14<andythenorth>something like: if not string_id in blah raise foo
05:14<andythenorth>or similar
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05:17<@Alberth>like I said, your case is not expected to get there, and should have been caught somewhere before
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05:17<@Alberth>ie assert x means "we really don't expect x to ever fail"
05:18<andythenorth>hmm, cropped ships in the buy menu doesn't look brilliant
05:18<andythenorth>nvm, it is what it is
05:19<@Alberth>sounds like a tricky problem, in essence you want a small version of your ship
05:20<andythenorth>paddle steamer:
05:20<andythenorth>scaled looks bad, that's been tried before
05:20<andythenorth>cropped is better
05:20<andythenorth>but some of the crops will look odd because they'll show only hull, no cabin etc
05:21<andythenorth>the alternative is to patch nml for setx
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05:24<Hirundo>Such a patch will only be accepted iff OpenTTD considers it the right thing (tm) to do
05:24<andythenorth>it has to, it's in the newgrf spec ;)
05:24<andythenorth>this newgrf spec thing is quite variable isn't it :)
05:25<Hirundo>newgrf spec allows overwriting action bytes with action6, doesn't mean we have to support that
05:25<andythenorth>some things may never be changed lest they break old grfs
05:25<andythenorth>other things may be :P
05:27<andythenorth>currently lack of setx 'blocks' porting FISH to nml
05:27<andythenorth>except I don't think I actually care ;)
05:28<Hirundo>Alberth: Is setx actually the recommended way of doing buy menu offsets?
05:28<@Alberth>not in my book
05:29<@Alberth>but I am not sure what to do
05:29<@Alberth>eg is it OK to allow newgrf authors to provide a 600 pixel sprite in the buy menu?
05:29<andythenorth>setx is a bad and silly feature
05:30<andythenorth>it gives the buy menu a ragged edge that I dislike
05:30<andythenorth>newgrf authors should crop
05:30<andythenorth>and they should consider the wisdom of providing sprites that are too big
05:30<@Alberth>so I think you have to set some fixed limit
05:30<@Alberth>where 70? pixels seems as good as any
05:31<andythenorth>70px is fine
05:31<andythenorth>"sprite doesn't fit the buy menu" -> your sprite is too big, reconsider your grf
05:31<@Alberth>the other option is to move texts after checking the sprite sizes, but you still need some sane upper limit imho
05:32<andythenorth>70px ;)
05:32<andythenorth>the oversized sprites in FISH cause other problems, e.g. flickering in game, overlapping scenery etc
05:32<andythenorth>being too big for the buy menu indicates they are realy a bad idea
05:32<@Alberth>in which case you may as well put the text there always, which returns you to the fixed size solution
05:32<frosch123>someone also suggested to draw the selected engine image below the list in the details
05:33<andythenorth>uses too much vertical space
05:33<@planetmaker>below as in the z-axis. text on top?
05:33<andythenorth>oh that was FooBar's request
05:33<@planetmaker>hm.. also ambiguous. Written over
05:33<andythenorth>I was thinking below in the y plane
05:34<@Alberth>and as 70px is as good as any, the only thing left to do seems to remove the setx support in the buy menu
05:34<andythenorth>and wait for complaints
05:34<@planetmaker>you know... there's no course of action which won't cause complaints
05:35<@Alberth>I rather set a recommendation in the newgrf spec and have newgrf authors refrain from using setx hacks
05:35<andythenorth>I like remove setx, it's a good measure of how much people care
05:35<andythenorth>complaints = conversation = interesting
05:36<@planetmaker>It was only left as it broke buy menus of some NewGRFs iirc
05:36<@Alberth>it's not worth a big fight imho
05:36<@planetmaker>but I don't recall which. Most likely 2ccTS and some CanSet
05:36<@planetmaker>no, it's not worth it
05:36<andythenorth>and FISH
05:37<@planetmaker>But FISH has an author who involves himself constructively in discussions and puts moaning aside even when he doesn't like the outcome too much ;-)
05:37<andythenorth>breaks AV8 too
05:38<@planetmaker>hm, that, too
05:38<@Alberth>displaying it elsewhere seems like a good direction to me
05:38<@planetmaker>it = ?
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05:38<andythenorth>breaks NARS 2 as well
05:39<@planetmaker>but would it break, if the sprites are assumed fixed width and text drawn right of it (or left for rtl)?
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05:40<andythenorth>it would 'break' as in, the spec changed
05:40<andythenorth>and the grf no longer works as intended
05:40<andythenorth>it wouldn't break in any significant way
05:40<@planetmaker>vehicles have a purchase menu sprite and a name. Both need be associated. But... that won't break, will it?
05:41<andythenorth>only the positioning
05:41<@Alberth> eg a different game display the object next to the list of objecst to pick from
05:42<andythenorth>like stations
05:42<andythenorth>I would miss sprites in the buy menu. Just text is a bit meh
05:42<@Alberth>we'd keep sprites imho, but also display the "real" thing
05:43<@Alberth>that makes authors not want to use the real thing in the menu, I think
05:43<andythenorth>do we have screen space spare?
05:43<@planetmaker>andythenorth: sure, sprites msut be kept
05:43<@planetmaker>I didn't suggest skipping those :-)
05:43<@Alberth>I was wondering about that too, it needs rethinking buy menu layout
05:44<andythenorth>k, so limit max width of sprites in rows, add a new bigger sprite display when selected
05:44<andythenorth>layout: simples
05:44<@Alberth>what if we give 2 lines to each vehicle, one for the sprite and the text under it?
05:44<andythenorth>move the stats and picture to the right
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05:44<andythenorth>most screens are landscape orientated, vertical space is at a premium
05:45<@planetmaker>Alberth: that would only lengthen the purchase list. Which is already very long
05:45<@planetmaker>I don't see an issue with side-by-side for one vehicle
05:45<andythenorth>remove the info from the bottom provides more vertical space, then add a panel to the right for the details
05:45<andythenorth>also 'rename'
05:45*andythenorth -> photoshop
05:52<@planetmaker>yep. The detail info right or left (like newgrf list) is the window type which fits screen best
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05:55<andythenorth>kind of sucks
05:55<andythenorth>but only because it's not finished ;
05:55<@planetmaker>yes, like that. Still, the main list imho must contain sprites, too
05:55<@planetmaker>I only remember vehicles by their image. Not the name
05:56<@Alberth>planetmaker: look at the right :)
05:57<@planetmaker>Alberth: that means I have to click on each item to see the image. Much more click
05:57<@Alberth>but we can keep the buy menu sprites :)
05:57<@planetmaker>but I'm all for a standard purchase list sprite size
05:58<@planetmaker>or at least a max purchase list sprite width and a normed max height
05:58<@Alberth>Hirundo: does that answer your question? :)
05:58<@planetmaker>though I can also see the adv. in a text only list
05:58<andythenorth>advanced setting :P
05:58<@Alberth>you'd need hover then for the image
05:59<@planetmaker>oh no. I rather have a text only list than an adv. setting for that :-)
05:59<Hirundo>Alberth: Most excellently
05:59<Hirundo>IMO there should be a small sprite in the list, and a (possibly) larger sprite in the side panel
06:00<Hirundo>var10/18 can be used for that
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06:00<FLHerne>andythenorth: Your paddle steamer is a stationary cargo hovercraft??? :P
06:03<andythenorth>we don't have any kind of precedent for that hanging panel I've drawn
06:04<Hirundo>it should not be hanging, list and side panel height would be equal
06:04<andythenorth>that's my conclusion too
06:05<FLHerne>You could make it like the station menu, and display sprites for multiple directions?
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06:05<andythenorth>then I could buy vehicles for multiple directions
06:05<andythenorth>I have been missing that feature
06:06<FLHerne>So that players can see what the boat looks like from multiple directions, I mean :D
06:06<FLHerne>Or display variations for different cargos?
06:06<andythenorth>planetmaker: a text-only buy menu would be similar in essentials to this existing window
06:07<andythenorth>FLHerne: available livery refits? :P
06:07<Hirundo>That would be up to the grf author, he can decide what to show in that sprite
06:08<@Alberth>animated gif :p
06:09<FLHerne>With a window like that, the author could display multiple sprites for each boat, which would be useful when they change appearance on refit
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06:13<andythenorth>could also show the inevitable 32bpp sprites
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06:13<andythenorth>and loads of flags and all the other crap
06:17<@Alberth>could be interesting at 8bpp :)
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06:18<frosch123>yeah, make the vehicle rotate on some kind of podium in the details
06:18<frosch123>that'll make it look like a website from 2000
06:20<andythenorth>we already have <blink>, so why not
06:21*andythenorth often makes sprites with <blink>
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06:23<frosch123>actually, the sprite in the purchase list should be animated while selected
06:24<frosch123>or when hovering the mouse?
06:24<FLHerne>Can the industry purchase list have sprites? :P
06:26<frosch123>you can't even select the layout
06:26<FLHerne>Why not? :P
06:26<andythenorth>because nobody wants to code it
06:27<FLHerne>Seems reasonable... :-(
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06:36<dihedral>\o/ found a bug in my bot, where when a monthly job runs at the beginning of the quarter, it gets parsed before the new date gets parsed... yay!
06:38<TrueBrain>lol, did this dude serious suggest using Amazing S3 and some unknown hosting party? How hard can you misread a topic :D
06:38<TrueBrain>also lol @ using C# for a website ...
06:38<TrueBrain>why not C++? :)
06:38<TrueBrain>or VB?
06:38<TrueBrain>even Perl would be better :D
06:38<@Alberth>haskell ?
06:38<frosch123>is there a vb to llvm compiler?
06:38*NGC3982 is actually taking classes in C# after being shitstormed in this channel.
06:39<TrueBrain>NGC3982: nothing wrong with C#
06:39<TrueBrain>just .... use a language for its goal :)
06:39<TrueBrain>websites is not a goal :P
06:39*NGC3982 has no clue.
06:39<TrueBrain>(well, "nothing" ... it still is a MS language)
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06:40<TrueBrain>it comes from the same people who thin IE9 supports enough CSS3 and HTML5 to be AWESOME
06:40<@Alberth>TrueBrain: not entirely true, they hired the creator of Eiffel :)
06:41<@Alberth>and the language itself seems nice enough
06:41<TrueBrain>I guess you refer to C#?
06:42<@Alberth>although the code blocks all over the place would not be my preference
06:42<@Alberth>TrueBrain: yep
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06:42<@Alberth>TrueBrain: on the other hand, they also ported C++ to .net, and dropped multi-inheritance :D
06:43<@Alberth>as the VM does not handle it :D
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06:45<frosch123>does c# have a preprocessor step?
06:46<@Alberth>it's basically a newer java, but it is actually moving forwards :)
06:48*dihedral still has hopes for java
06:56<@Alberth>their only advantage is the wide platform support
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07:13<CIA-4>OpenTTD: frosch * r24378 /trunk/src/widget.cpp: -Fix [FS#5218]: ReInit could crash for windows with NWidgetMatrix widgets.
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07:59<CIA-4>OpenTTD: frosch * r24379 /trunk/src/object_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#5218-ish]: Do not resize the object GUI when selecting objects. Rather clip the object name.
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08:48<CIA-4>OpenTTD: frosch * r24380 /trunk/src/ (roadveh.h roadveh_cmd.cpp): -Fix [FS#5188]: RoadVehicle::IsInDepot did not check all articulated parts.
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09:05<andythenorth>extra buy menu sprite would need to use one of the other sprites from the action 1 set
09:05<andythenorth>[seems easiest to me]
09:05*andythenorth -> out, madness
09:05<andythenorth>toddler birthday party
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09:12<NGC3982>the heat
09:13<NGC3982>sweden has the worst weather ever
09:14<NGC3982>it's like god vacuumed our oxygen away.
09:14*FLHerne wonders whether to go out in the rain to look at this torch thing
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11:22<CIA-4>OpenTTD: frosch * r24381 /trunk/src/ (roadveh.h roadveh_cmd.cpp): -Revert (r24380): RoadVehicle::IsInDepot was supposed to behave different to Train::IsInDepot.
11:35<CIA-4>OpenTTD: frosch * r24382 /trunk/src/ (4 files): -Fix: Call Vehicle::IsStoppedInDepot only for the first vehicle in a chain (i.e. primary vehicle or free wagon).
11:37<CIA-4>OpenTTD: frosch * r24383 /trunk/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp: -Fix: a comment.
11:39<CIA-4>OpenTTD: frosch * r24384 /trunk/src/ (14 files in 2 dirs): -Fix [FS#5188-ish]: Make IsInDepot() functions behave consistent across vehicle types and add IsChainInDepot instead, if that is what shall be checked.
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>"behave differently"
11:46<Eddi|zuHause>needs to be an adverb :)
11:46<Sacro>differently behave?
11:47*frosch123 exorcises ln out of eddi
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11:51<Eddi|zuHause>you should try exp() to cancel out an ln() :)
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12:43<frosch123>does anyone have trouble downloading firs 0.7.5 from bananas using the ingame client?
12:43<frosch123>maybe windows users?
12:45<andythenorth>I don't
12:45<frosch123>apparently some users get a corrupt file which has a different md5sum
12:46<frosch123>but surprisingly the file still seems to be valid
12:46<frosch123>there is no such file on bananas with such md5 as in fs#5231
12:47<frosch123>also the md5 of the devzone download is correct
12:47*andythenorth ponders that the game has three places to keep newgrfs
12:47<andythenorth>took a while to find FIRS :P
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12:51<frosch123>maybe there is a virus modifying grfs when downloaded :p
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13:18<andythenorth>my ship speed calculation is still clearly quite wrong
13:18<andythenorth>@calc 50 = 56
13:18<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
13:18<andythenorth>my thoughts too :P
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13:20<@Alberth>@calc 50 == 56
13:20<@DorpsGek>Alberth: 0
13:20<@Alberth>o/ LordAro
13:20<andythenorth>it helps if I configure my set correctly :P
13:20<LordAro>howdy all + Alberth
13:20<andythenorth>I have booleans for 'sea capable' and 'inland capable'
13:20<LordAro>@fs 5236
13:21<andythenorth>if they're not checked, I reduce speed by 20% accordingly :P
13:21<andythenorth>or so
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13:43*andythenorth considers which ships go faster unladen
13:43<andythenorth>PAX hydrofoils?
13:43<andythenorth>river barges?
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>it doesn't make sense for passengers (because they're rarely fully unladen anyway. and because they don't have such a high weight to make a difference)
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>neither for "vehicle ferry" types
13:45<andythenorth>that's my thinking
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>river barges sounds right, though. and possibly container freighters
13:45<andythenorth>PAX are a negligible fraction of the weight
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: translators * r24385 /trunk/src/lang/lithuanian.txt:
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: lithuanian - 90 changes by Stabilitronas
13:46<Eddi|zuHause>so: "vehicle ferries" don't go faster, regardless of which cargo they're refitted to, other freight ships do.
13:47<Eddi|zuHause>maybe ferries should go faster in general, but have lower tonnage
13:48<Eddi|zuHause>i'm worried about the gamebalance of hydrofoils. in my game, i replaced all passenger ferries with hydrofoils at some point, because speed makes all the difference.
13:50<andythenorth>fair point
13:51<andythenorth>can't think of a solution
13:51<andythenorth>cargo aging
13:51<andythenorth>ever been on a hydrofoil?
13:51<andythenorth>noisy, unpleasant, hot, smells of kerosene
13:52<andythenorth>we did Vienna-Bratislava on an ex-Soviet river hydrofoil
13:52<FLHerne>Uncomfortable at sea, too :-(
13:52<FLHerne>Don't like waves :P
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13:53<FLHerne>Hydrofoils :P
13:53*andythenorth though hydrofoils were smoother due to sub-sea foil
13:53<andythenorth>wikipedia probably knows :P
13:53<FLHerne>Depends if the waves are big enough to hit the hull anyway :-(
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13:54*andythenorth needs an assistant
13:55<andythenorth>for entering of stats to FISH cms :P
13:56<FLHerne>So finding stats, and then sticking them in a table?
13:57<NGC3982>the akward moment when scotty makes his first apperance in star trek tng
13:57*NGC3982 mouth is indeed open.
13:58<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: when he reappears out of the transporter?
13:58<NGC3982>note that i havent seen these episodes before.
13:59<NGC3982>t'was fantastic.
13:59<andythenorth>copying stats out of the nfo
13:59<andythenorth>and pasting them in
14:00<andythenorth>possibly converting hex -> dec
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>i think it was a rather late episode?
14:00<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: yes, season six.
14:00<TomyLobo>is it possible to run the simulation as fast as the CPU allows for a few years?
14:00<TomyLobo>like, fast-forward 10 years
14:01*andythenorth should find one of those js edit-table-in-place things
14:01<FLHerne>Isn't that what the fast-forward button's for?
14:01<TomyLobo>FLHerne that's too slow :)
14:01*FLHerne probably just missed the point :P
14:01<Eddi|zuHause>TomyLobo: if you run it headless (-v null) you can specify to run for a fixed number of ticks (that's intended for profiling purposes)
14:01<TomyLobo>ah, how? :)
14:01<TomyLobo>and can i load+save too?
14:02<Eddi|zuHause>not sure if it makes a savegame in the end
14:02<FLHerne>Does fast-forward have a maximum speed limit? My computer would be slower than it anyway, so I don't know :P
14:02<TomyLobo>FLHerne i doubt that. it uses 0% on my comp
14:02<Eddi|zuHause>TomyLobo: but you can arrange the ticks in a way that it would end right after an autosave
14:02<TomyLobo>and mine is very likely not 100 times as fast
14:03<TomyLobo>Eddi|zuHause ah good plan
14:03<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: "engineering!? i thought you'd never ask!!"
14:03<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: i barely remember these episodes
14:03<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: and especially i've never seen them in english
14:04<frosch123>"Forbid trains and ships from making 90° turns" <- is that actually english? shouldn't it be "prevent from" or "forbid to"?
14:04<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: oh, i see.
14:04<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: well, it sure is a blast. :)
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: and certainly i have no clue which episode belongs to which season
14:06<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: i often fail to deduce that, even though ive recently seen it.
14:09<FLHerne>TomyLobo: It doesn't go any quicker on fast-forward than normal. I assume the limit must be higher than that...
14:10<TomyLobo>are you on a 386?
14:11<FLHerne>Nope, P4
14:11<TomyLobo>did you underclock it?
14:11<FLHerne>No, just used it for a while :-)
14:11*NGC3982 used to have a pentium 3 for openttd.
14:11*FLHerne still has one
14:12<FLHerne>Secondary computer :-)
14:13<TomyLobo>i have 4 cores at 3.2 ghz, makes 12.6 ghz, so to speak... so if you dont have less than 126 mhz (or since p4 is architecturally inferior, let's say 250 mhz), i dont see how you'd be CPU-limited while i dont even use 1% of mine
14:13<FLHerne>Are you sure you're measuring it reliably? Seems impressively low
14:14<TomyLobo>wait, it actually uses 35% now :D
14:14<FLHerne>That convinces me a bit more
14:14<TomyLobo>i.e. more than one core
14:15<FLHerne>Try running it on a 133MHz PPC laptop :D
14:15<TomyLobo>nah, PPCs need to die
14:15*FLHerne objects strongly to that comment
14:15<TomyLobo>no java 1.6 for ppc macs
14:15<FLHerne>PPC is awesome :D
14:16<TomyLobo>that's why minecraft and many mods use java 1.5
14:16<FLHerne>And? Java is hopeless anyway :P
14:16<TomyLobo>and java 1.5 plainly sucks
14:17<FLHerne>Has anyone else tried OTTD on m68k?
14:17<Rubidium>I tried is on S/390 (emulated)
14:18<FLHerne>Didn't work out well for me, perhaps someone else did better :-)
14:18<Rubidium>isn't Amiga m68k?
14:18<FLHerne>Rubidium: What's the point in emulating things to run software that would be fine on the host anyway? :P
14:19<@Alberth>Atari ST was, and probably some Amiga too
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14:21<Rubidium>FLHerne: mainly because I didn't have the money to buy a S/390
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14:22<FLHerne>Why did you want to run OTTD on one anyway?
14:24<Rubidium>because compilation failed on that (and some other architectures)
14:24<Rubidium>and this was the easiest to emulate
14:24<Rubidium>FWIW: a whopping 9 GB disk for a S/390 costs about 500 dollars on ebay
14:25<Rubidium>and only 8k for a single S/390
14:26<Rubidium>but then it's a mainframe from the 1990s
14:26<FLHerne>How did you find out that compilation failed, then? :P
14:26<@Alberth>can you run it from a standard power outlet, or do you need to put in extra heavy cabling first?
14:27<@Alberth>in the latter case, 8k won't be enough then :)
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14:29*LordAro pokes devs:
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14:29<FLHerne>Ah. Is there any way to find out how many people downloaded it for S/390? Probably not a lot...
14:30<frosch123>LordAro: you are on windows, aren't you?
14:30<frosch123>what file do you get when you download firs 0.5 from bananas using the ingame download?
14:31<Rubidium>LordAro: what's the point of that feature? The ones you would like to have the text files of you can't get the text files from
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14:40<frosch123>you cannot really blame him for that :p
14:41<frosch123>but yes, bananas should be able to provide the textfiles on their own, just like it should be able to provide 8bpp-only and normal-zoom-only stuff
14:41<Rubidium>no, but this 'feature' makes that terribly clear
14:41<Rubidium>and the main problem with bananas is that it needs a massive rewrite
14:42<Rubidium>I furthermore also wonder how to handle all the asynchronicity and mirrors with pushing all readmes, licenses and such to there as well
14:44<frosch123>why would that need anything special?
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15:04*andythenorth considers playing the game
15:04<andythenorth>any new features recently?
15:05<frosch123>recently or since you played the last time?
15:05<andythenorth>within last month or so
15:06<frosch123>i think in that time the number of open bugs raised from 20 to 40, else nothing happend :p
15:06<andythenorth>we need new features!
15:06*andythenorth offers to test patches :P
15:07<frosch123>last one was newgrf signals, before that was advanced filtering in newgrf gui and others
15:07<andythenorth>magic routing algorithms?
15:07<andythenorth>for cargo packets?
15:10<frosch123>route them to /dev/null
15:17<andythenorth>hardly any industries
15:17<andythenorth>don't use FIRS with 'low'
15:17<andythenorth>or with 'normal'
15:18<andythenorth>normal provides far too many
15:18<andythenorth>low provides far too few
15:18<frosch123>the number of industries in total is fixed per setting
15:19<andythenorth>on a none-scientific estimate, 'normal' provides 300% of 'low'
15:19*andythenorth could read the code of course
15:20<frosch123>10, 25, 55, 80
15:21<frosch123>@calc 55/25 * 100
15:21<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 220
15:21<frosch123>only 220%
15:22*andythenorth doesn't play a game after all
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15:57<waterfoul>My trains keep getting stuck at either 0% or 100% after (un)loading... how do I fix them?
15:59<@Alberth>do you use time tables?
15:59*waterfoul facepalms
16:00<waterfoul>I turn them on for a few trains and forgot about them
16:00<waterfoul>how do you clear it?
16:00<waterfoul>can you clear a timetable after it's been created?
16:01<@Alberth>isn't there a 'clear times' button?
16:01<@Alberth>otherwise the wiki might know
16:02<waterfoul>oh... I was looking for a clear all button... you need to click on the times to enable the botton so I didn't see it
16:02<@Alberth>could be, I hardly use time tables
16:04<frosch123>waterfoul: also read about shared orders
16:04<frosch123>then you can set up timetables for multiple vehicles together, instead of only for some
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16:11<@Alberth>good night
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16:58<waterfoul>is there a way to add some sort of penalty to a like so the teains are less likely to use it?
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17:09<frosch123>waterfoul: use a backfacing path signal
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17:22<NGC3982>neat, commander data is using a bnc contact to connect his neural interface in star trek tng.
17:25<frosch123>that's security by obscurity
17:25<frosch123>just imagine how few would know about bnc contacts in the future
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17:38<monkeyman23555>I have a question about the 32bpp, I cant find any good documentation for 1.2.* versions.. I am currently on can I just download the tar files and install them in a directory?
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17:39<frosch123>likely not
17:40<monkeyman23555>is there a way to actually have 1.2.1 working with 32bpp at the moment?
17:43<frosch123>you can use the nightly of ogfx+trains
17:43<frosch123>then you have 32bpp trains
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17:45<monkeyman23555>frosch123: is this the one?
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17:52<frosch123>yes, the nightly
17:52<frosch123>just put it into the "newgrf" folder of your installation
17:52<frosch123>and add it via the newgrf settings
17:56<monkeyman23555>I put the file into newgrf, but it does not show up in the newgrf settings, am I meant to extract it?
17:59<frosch123>ah, it's a zip
17:59<frosch123>yes, then extract it, but leave the tar
17:59<frosch123>you should have an ogfx-trains.tar in the end
18:02<monkeyman23555>hm seems to be corrupted?
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18:06<monkeyman23555>infact it is of size 0 kb
18:07<frosch123> <- then use that one
18:07<frosch123> <- hmm, or that
18:07<frosch123>51M sounds like a decent size for a 32bpp newgrf with zoom levels
18:09<monkeyman23555>I suppose so... 698 is also only 86KB apperently
18:12<monkeyman23555>thank you frosch123
18:12<frosch123>you're welcome
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18:48<Guilux>hi there
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19:07<FLHerne>(belatedly, but anyway...)
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---Logclosed Sun Jul 08 00:01:01 2012