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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-07-08

---Logopened Sun Jul 08 00:01:02 2012
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02:39<Ammler>yeah, we should sometimes fix the compiler to handle the new size of grfs :-/
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03:14<SpiderChord>Hi, I'm having issues with getting 1.2.1 installed on my computer(Ubuntu linux).
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03:28<@Alberth>hi hi
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04:50<@Terkhen>good morning
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05:11<@planetmaker>moin
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05:18<Wolf01>'morning
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06:14<Hyronymus>hello guys
06:14<Hyronymus>question about devzone repository
06:15<Hyronymus>I believe I succesfully commited a new set of files to my Dutch Town Names repo
06:15<Hyronymus>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/dutchtowns/repository
06:15<Hyronymus>except I don't see them there :s
06:15<@planetmaker>commit != push
06:15<Hyronymus>right
06:15<Hyronymus>:p
06:16<@planetmaker>did you also push your new commit to the repo? :-)
06:16<Hyronymus>no
06:16<@planetmaker>:-)
06:17<Hyronymus>now I did
06:17<Hyronymus>then commit?
06:17<@planetmaker>the order "first commit, then push" is quite ok. Now the devzone repo is updated
06:17<Hyronymus>k
06:17<Hyronymus>you may need the new version, planetmaker
06:18<Hyronymus>no big change, just ran into an existing GRF ID when I tried uploading it to Bananas
06:18<Hyronymus>really silly
06:19<@planetmaker>well, yeah. Indeed better keep them unique :-)
06:20<Hyronymus>thx for the help
06:20<Hyronymus>when I'm 80 I'll get the hang of it
06:20<@planetmaker>btw, Hyronymus: while a townname newgrf certainly doesn't "need" grf v8... you probably do not loose much, if you use it nevertheless. After all, not many will play earlier versions (just if you feel lazy there: don't feel bad about it :-) )
06:20<@planetmaker>no problem, my pleasure
06:20<Hyronymus>well, it's something to put in my thread
06:21<@planetmaker>yes, possibly. Does the readme supply a list of all possible names? :-)
06:23<Hyronymus>what readme?
06:23<Hyronymus>Hmm, I can make one easily
06:24<@planetmaker>hehe :-P
06:24<@planetmaker>the one which people can look at. E.g. ingame :-)
06:25<Hyronymus>yeah, didn't think about that new feature
06:25<Hyronymus>are there special requirements for the makeup
06:25<@planetmaker>there's no markup. Just a plain text file, utf-8 encoded
06:26<@planetmaker>you can make use of spaces as they're displayed using a mono font
06:26<@planetmaker>so that things align nicely
06:26<Hyronymus>k
06:27<Hyronymus>is there multi language support for readme's?
06:27<@Alberth>yes
06:27<Hyronymus>Damned
06:28<Hyronymus>:P
06:28<@Alberth>but I am not entirely sure about the details
06:28<Hyronymus>good \o/
06:28<@Alberth>I think the readme can have a language extension
06:28<@planetmaker>might be, yes
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06:29<frosch123>yeah, but i think bananas does not support it
06:29<@planetmaker>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ogfx-trains/repository/entry/docs/readme.ptxt <-- if you need an idea of what could go there, Hyronymus. Ignore section 5 though
06:30*Alberth wonders where to find the details
06:30<@Alberth>(other than in the code :p )
06:30<Hyronymus>thx
06:30<@planetmaker>But... don't have a release depend on it :-) Rather release without than ponder to long on this. You can, after all, always release a new, updated version :-)
06:31<@planetmaker>*too long
06:31<Hyronymus>and ptxt is supported by Bananas
06:31<Hyronymus>zip is already up on the forums
06:32<Hyronymus>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=51962&p=920422#p920422
06:32<frosch123>Alberth: the bananas tos describe the filenames for untranslated stuff
06:32<frosch123>for translated stuff it is likely only in the source
06:33<@planetmaker>Hyronymus: no, it must be .txt
06:33<frosch123>it's readme.txt, readme_nl.txt
06:33<@planetmaker>the .ptxt is... just because I replace a few words in it by a script
06:33<Hyronymus>I see, the GRF ID
06:33<@planetmaker>yup
06:34<Hyronymus>German is _de?
06:34<frosch123>readme_de.txt, readme_de_DE.txt, readme_de_CH.txt ...
06:34<@planetmaker>yep
06:35<frosch123>though ottd has no de_CH
06:36<@planetmaker>nor actually de_AT
06:36<frosch123>yeah, i guess we have only country codes for en and pt
06:36<@planetmaker>or de_BE or de_LU
06:37<@planetmaker>oh, we have for portuguise
06:37<@planetmaker>and chinese and norwegian
06:37<Hyronymus>but just _de will do?
06:37<frosch123>norwegian differs in the first code
06:37<@planetmaker>yup
06:37<Hyronymus>k
06:37<@planetmaker>oh, ok. Norwegian then maybe not :-)
06:38<frosch123>Hyronymus: if the locale is de_DE, it first checks for a readme_de_DE.txt, then readme_de.txt and finally readme.txt
06:38<@planetmaker>what is pt?
06:38<frosch123>portuguise
06:38<@planetmaker>portugual... he :-P
06:38<frosch123>pt_PT and pt_BR
06:38<Hyronymus>quite a sequence :P
06:38<frosch123>norwegian is nb_NO and nn_NO
06:39<@planetmaker>oh, the other way :-)
06:40<frosch123>yeah, like de_CH, fr_CH, it_CH, gsw_CH :p
06:40<frosch123>but well, we do not even have nl_BE
06:41<@planetmaker>:-)
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06:41<@planetmaker>fr_CH, fr_BE, fr_CA, ... :-P
06:42<frosch123>i wonder what country is the smallest one with the most languages
06:42<frosch123>maybe LUX ?
06:43<@planetmaker>you mean languages per inhabitant?
06:43<frosch123>kind of :p
06:43<@planetmaker>your criterion is... ambiguous at best otherwise ;-)
06:43<frosch123>well, let's say "official languages per inhabitant"
06:44<frosch123>not "average number of languages spoken by inhabitant"
06:44<frosch123>though that might be interesting as well
06:45<frosch123>"average number of languages understood by inhabitants" would likely be something around india
06:45<frosch123>lots of similar but different languages
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06:46<frosch123>unless we also accept german accents :)
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06:47<Hyronymus>can you provide url's in a readme and will they work upon clicking?
06:47<frosch123>no
06:47<frosch123>but you can provide a url in the grf details
06:47<Hyronymus>I don't think adding 4.256 names in readme is worth the lines
06:47<frosch123>(even a localised one)
06:47<@planetmaker>Hyronymus: in the grf block you can provide the URL
06:48<Hyronymus>k
06:48<@planetmaker>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:GRF
06:49<Hyronymus>btw, min_compatible_version : 8; is correct?
06:49<@planetmaker>nope
06:49<@planetmaker>that's the version you attribute to your newgrf yourself
06:49<@planetmaker>dunno what version you're at currently. Maybe 1? Or two?
06:50<@planetmaker>in the version: XXX line of the grf block
06:50<Hyronymus>k, v2 then
06:50<@planetmaker>it's no openttd, no language, no whatever version. But just numeric
06:50<Hyronymus>I think I spotted a typo in the link you gave planetmaker
06:50<Hyronymus>shouldn't [url: <string>; beclosed with a ]
06:50<@planetmaker>fix it :-)
06:51<@planetmaker>I guess it should... there should be more such paranthesis.
06:51*planetmaker tries to fix it
06:51<Hyronymus>k
06:54<@planetmaker>done, thanks
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06:58<Hyronymus>planetmaker: you did the German translation of the lng last time, right
06:59<@planetmaker>possibly I did :-)
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06:59<@planetmaker>Does it need a new translation?
06:59<@planetmaker>or an update?
06:59<@Alberth>or both :)
07:00<Hyronymus>translation needed for the readme
07:01<@planetmaker>Oh... Ok, let's do that :-)
07:01<@planetmaker>Did you push the English one?
07:02<@planetmaker>*commit & push?
07:02<Hyronymus>no, doing a last check
07:03<@planetmaker>k :-)
07:04<Hyronymus>it's up
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07:05<@planetmaker>ok, give me a few minutes for translation and pushing it to the repo, Hyronymus
07:06<Hyronymus>no problem
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07:08<Hyronymus>nmlc: "dtnames.nml", line 17: Syntax error, unexpected token "["
07:12<frosch123>[ blabla ] means the blabla is optional
07:12<frosch123>the [ ] do not belong to the syntax
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07:13<Hyronymus>yeah
07:13<Hyronymus>I have to make it a string
07:15<frosch123>yeah, it is also translatable. if you have a translated website, you can specify different urls
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07:16<Hyronymus>neat
07:16<@planetmaker>Hyronymus: I've translated it. Shall I commit and push, or do you want to do that?
07:16<@planetmaker>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1519/
07:16<Hyronymus>be my guest
07:17<Hyronymus>super
07:18<@planetmaker>done. Now you need to pull
07:21<Hyronymus>\o/ URL works
07:21<@planetmaker>:-)
07:21<Hyronymus>readme works too
07:22<@planetmaker>for bananas you'd need to zip all, the *.grf, the readme*.txt into a zip and upload that
07:22<Hyronymus>nür mal versuchem auf Deutsch
07:22<@planetmaker>s/nür/nun/ :-)
07:23<@planetmaker>I find the most troublesome version to check for me is Arabic or similar
07:23<Hyronymus>auch gut
07:23<Hyronymus>lol
07:23<@planetmaker>(any rtl language) ;-) Pefect!
07:23<@planetmaker>+r
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07:24<Hyronymus>ok, going to provide the Dutch translation now and then all up to Bananas
07:24<@planetmaker>:-) Nice, thanks :-)
07:24<@planetmaker>I really like to provide theme-style maps. And... that was a missing element :-)
07:24<Hyronymus>and you know, I never saw your post of June 21st until today
07:25<@planetmaker>that was FooBar :-)
07:25<@planetmaker>he actually pointed me to the thread
07:26<@planetmaker>and "complained" that his nudge resulted in no action or reply ;-)
07:27<Hyronymus>I feel guilty
07:27<@planetmaker>don't. Shit happens.
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07:27<@planetmaker>it's easy to miss a single posting
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07:36<Hyronymus>you mind if I changte Städte- to Orts-, planetmaker
07:37<@planetmaker>I don't mind.
07:37<@planetmaker>though... depends. Where?
07:37<Hyronymus>in your translated readme
07:38<@planetmaker>well, yes :-P. You mean everywhere?
07:38<@planetmaker>is any of that not a town?
07:39<Hyronymus>quite
07:39<Hyronymus>most names are from a villages
07:39<Hyronymus>with a minortiy of pesseants :p
07:39<Hyronymus>geez, my spelling is off today
07:39<@planetmaker>Städteliste -> Ortsliste (line 33) sounds a bit odd. All other places it sounds ok.
07:40<@planetmaker>*sounds ok when replaced
07:40<Hyronymus>hmm
07:40<@planetmaker>hm...
07:40<Hyronymus>:D
07:40<@planetmaker>then the first sentence sounds odd, too
07:41<Hyronymus>yeah, but Ort is more true than Stadt
07:41<Hyronymus>and if you find that odd, how about Ortsbücher
07:41<Hyronymus>:D
07:42<@planetmaker>Should then read "Dieses NewGRF stellt 4256 niederländische Ortsnamen jedweder Größe zur Verfügung". "Ortsbücher" is not a word I heart or read until today
07:42<__ln__>*heard
07:42<__ln__>good morning
07:43<@Alberth>but a language is always evolving :)
07:43<Hyronymus>must be a genealogical thing then
07:43<@planetmaker>also not in that context. Those are possibly "Kirchenbuch" or similar. Or modern "Melderegister"
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07:44<Hyronymus>anyhow, the full paragraph then becomes:
07:44<@planetmaker>If you don't like it called "Stadt" let me revise it and commit an update
07:44<Hyronymus>Dieses NewGRF stellt 4256 niederländische Ortsnamen jedweder Größe zur Verfügung.
07:44<Hyronymus>Namen großer Orte haben bei der Erstellung einer neuen Karte eine größere
07:44<Hyronymus>Wahrscheinlichkeit, gewählt zu werden.
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07:45<Hyronymus>(sidetrack: https://www.vfst.de/apps/ortsbuch/)
07:45<Hyronymus>planetmaker: feel free to commit a new version
07:47<@planetmaker>Hyronymus: do you have committed something which you did not yet push?
07:47<Hyronymus>nope
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07:50<@planetmaker>there you go, updated
07:51<Hyronymus>ty
07:53<Hyronymus>is the German translation of the GPL licence legal btw
07:53<Hyronymus>I just read that the official Dutch translation isn't
07:53<@planetmaker>No, it's not. But I say that in the last sentence there :-)
07:53<@planetmaker>Or try to.
07:54<Hyronymus>lol
07:54<@planetmaker>Maybe it's not clear enough
07:54<Hyronymus>let me push things
07:54<Sacro>\o/
07:54<Rubidium>I wouldn't burn my fingers on translated licenses
07:55<@planetmaker>Rubidium: just the short text that it's GPL. Not the license itself
07:56<@planetmaker>Basically the statement that the programme *is* GPL v2 and that the user should have gotten a license along with the programme. It's not a translation of the license
07:56<Hyronymus>oh, that's a clear difference indeed
08:05<Hyronymus>boohoo
08:05<Hyronymus>unknow file in pack: readme_de.txt
08:06*Hyronymus kicks planetmaker
08:06<@planetmaker>outch
08:07<@planetmaker>might well be that bananananannaas doesn't yet like those translated readmes
08:07*Hyronymus kicks Rubidium
08:08<@planetmaker>won't help. At least not quickly
08:08<Hyronymus>lol
08:08<@planetmaker>Just supply it without translated readmes
08:08<Hyronymus>I will
08:08<@planetmaker>They're not lost. But... just not yet supported on bananas. Only by openttd ;-)
08:09<Hyronymus>It's on Bananas nnow though
08:09<Hyronymus>\o/
08:09<@planetmaker>\o/
08:14<Chris_Booth>\\0
08:16<Hyronymus>0//
08:17<Hyronymus>~0~
08:23<NGC3982>ah.
08:24<NGC3982>yes, the chain of command episode
08:24*NGC3982 just saw what critics claim to be the best star trek episode ever.
08:24<NGC3982>i must say, i agree.
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08:35<TomyLobo>is there some newgrf that adds drive-through depots?
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08:44<@planetmaker>no
08:45<@planetmaker>that's not newgrf-able
08:47<TomyLobo>too bad
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08:50<@planetmaker>hi hi andythenorth :-)
08:50<andythenorth>bonjour]
08:51<andythenorth>anyone got suggestions that would inspire me to play the game?
08:51<andythenorth>I tried playing yesterday and found I had zero interest
08:51<andythenorth>kind of sad
08:51<@planetmaker>:-(
08:51<NGC3982>andythenorth: make something new.
08:51<NGC3982>or simply stop play for some time
08:51<frosch123>andythenorth: maybe play without any grfs at all, to rediscover the contrast
08:52<NGC3982>my time spent in openttd is somewhat of a sinus formed process.
08:52<@Alberth>what bothered you in particular?
08:52<andythenorth>didn't like the map
08:52<andythenorth>didn't like FIRS, too many industries
08:52<andythenorth>didn't like the distribution of industries
08:52<andythenorth>no goal or purpose
08:52<andythenorth>couldn't be bothered to decide where to start
08:52*Alberth is working on that :p
08:54<frosch123>andythenorth: also play arctic or tropic
08:55<frosch123>arctic mountainious, with low variety
08:55<andythenorth>what map size?
08:55<frosch123>128x256, something which you can finish fast
08:55<frosch123>default industries, high number
08:55<andythenorth>what is 'finish' please? :)
08:56<frosch123>all primary industries > 70%
08:56<frosch123>all towns connected
08:56<andythenorth>goals!
08:58*andythenorth wanted a YACD game
08:59<frosch123>anyway, don't play with any of your grfs. play with some where you can complain to others
09:00*andythenorth wants to play canadian set
09:01<andythenorth>meh
09:02<NGC3982>andythenorth: 64x64 is fantasticly fun for a few hours play.
09:02<@planetmaker>andythenorth: try Dutch
09:02<frosch123>on 64x64 you should set all borders to land though, else it's really only one hour of play
09:03<NGC3982>indeed
09:08<andythenorth>hm
09:08<andythenorth>one hour GS
09:09*andythenorth wonders if GS can measure elapsed time (allowing for pause etc)
09:09<andythenorth>system clock?
09:09<frosch123>i think gs can access the system clock
09:09<andythenorth>could be the missing challenge :)
09:09<frosch123>they can also pause the game, while still running themelf
09:10<@Alberth>if you can build during pause, pause has little meaning :p
09:10<frosch123>gs can change the settings
09:15<andythenorth>no build during pause :)
09:15<andythenorth>deliver 1,000t to Funtown within 1 hour
09:15<andythenorth>etc
09:17<@planetmaker>like that, yes
09:20<andythenorth>far more achievable than a big elaborate scenario over hundreds of years
09:20<NGC3982>hm, i fail to find anything on this, but do the FIRS industry set (by default) close industries at all?
09:21<andythenorth>what does the ingame readme say about it?
09:21<NGC3982>let's see
09:21<NGC3982>oh, i can access it in the game
09:21<NGC3982>neat
09:23<@planetmaker>:-)
09:23<NGC3982>ah, there we are. "industries won't close unless closure is enabled by parameter".
09:23<NGC3982>i didnt actually know about the readme button.
09:24<TomyLobo>is there any option to allow multiple airports per station?
09:24<frosch123>no
09:24<NGC3982>TomyLobo: last time i checked, not without a patch.
09:24<frosch123>there is not even a patch for that :p
09:24<NGC3982>last time i asked, there was?
09:25<NGC3982>i was on this subject some months ago, afaik.
09:25<frosch123>i doubt that
09:25<andythenorth>might be newairports you're thinking of?
09:25<frosch123>maybe you confuse someone saying "it can't be that hard" with "i have a patch for it"
09:25<TomyLobo>my intercontinental airport is getting crowded :D
09:25<NGC3982>frosch123: i guess. :-)
09:25<TomyLobo>with both passengers and planes
09:29<andythenorth>maybe the game needs a 'war' layer of gameplay :)
09:29<NGC3982>:D
09:30<andythenorth>most things can be blown up already
09:30<andythenorth>ho, could we have warcraft 1 style 'fog of war'
09:30<andythenorth>maybe without the war
09:31<andythenorth>you have to found your hq
09:31<andythenorth>then you only get to see the map as you build routes
09:31*Alberth sprinkles tracks all over the map
09:31<andythenorth>http://classic.battle.net/war2/basic/fog.shtml
09:32*andythenorth -> diy store, chores
09:33<NGC3982>ooh
09:33<NGC3982>fog of war in openttd would be awesome.
09:33<NGC3982>:D
09:33<NGC3982>..and a bit hard.
09:33<andythenorth>you have to build signal boxes and such to get visibility
09:33<@Alberth>warcraft was still nice, it removed enemies that you could not see :p
09:33<NGC3982>andythenorth: ;)
09:33<TomyLobo>fog of war without war?
09:34<NGC3982>mustard gas.
09:34<andythenorth>"fog of transportation empire construction" ?
09:34<@Alberth>TomyLobo: just call it LOS (line of sight)
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09:34<NGC3982>all pax and food trains go with negative profit upon running trough it
09:34<NGC3982>:D
09:34<TomyLobo>lol
09:34<@Alberth>you'll get runaway trains too :)
09:35<TomyLobo>and bank trains get robbed
09:35<NGC3982>yes!
09:36<andythenorth>bbl
09:36<NGC3982>i had this in mind when i hypothesized a soviet openttd map
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09:36<NGC3982>radioactive areas where you must bring medical supplies, and trains that run trough with pax and food get ruined
09:37<NGC3982>and, the areas spread if medical supplies (or iodine)
09:38<@planetmaker>NGC3982: make appropriate newgrfs and game scripts... (though I'm not sure it's appropriate for the peaceful game OpenTTD is)
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09:40<NGC3982>planetmaker: it is just a fun thought, of course. a soviet map with some serious parameters and grf would though be a real treat.
09:40<NGC3982>there is a lot of special industries and trains from the area, that said.
09:41<@planetmaker>you should talk to George. Or possibly, if you speak Russian, join the Russian OpenTTD site
09:41<NGC3982>(forgetting the crazy radioactive stuff/soylent people/siberian work camps)
09:41<NGC3982>hehe
09:41<@planetmaker>they might help you along
09:41<NGC3982>ill see what the internet has to say about it
09:41<NGC3982>:)
09:41<@planetmaker>and have newgrfs unknown to the outsiders
09:41<NGC3982>when googling, i noted that the russian community seems very ..big?
09:43<@planetmaker>I'm not sure... but most likely not small :-)
09:55<szaman>i would be fun to make a scenario of II World War when nazi army is in leningrad and stalingrad, and your task is to supply army from germany, but polish underground constantly blows tracks up :P
09:55<szaman>i/it
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10:35<TomyLobo>yeah, there arent enough ww2-themed games out there, let's make another
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11:24<LordAro>afternoon ladies
11:29<LordAro>@logs
11:29<@DorpsGek>LordAro: http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd
11:30<@peter1138>Hello girl
11:30<LordAro>:P
11:30*LordAro looks at logs
11:31<LordAro>"19:18:55 < frosch123> LordAro: you are on windows, aren't you?" <-- nope, i'm afraid
11:31<LordAro>well, actually i am at the moment, but not my computer
11:31<LordAro>and no OTTD, so i can't test
11:32<NGC3982>when accidently clicking "send trains to depot" in the train status window, how do i un-make them visit the depot?
11:32<NGC3982>it halts everything for fifteen minutes
11:32<NGC3982>:(
11:32<LordAro>"19:20:31 < Rubidium> LordAro: what's the point of that feature?" <-- dunno, it was on the todo list
11:33<LordAro>"19:20:31 < Rubidium> ...the ones you would like to have the text files of you can't get the text files from" <-- true, but i've done all i can at my end, the rest is up to you :P
11:34<LordAro>sorry about the disconnect, not my fault :L
11:36<@planetmaker>NGC3982: load autosave ;-)
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11:58<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r24386 /trunk/src/lang/slovak.txt: -Fix: remove broken plurals from slovak
12:01<NGC3982>planetmaker: harr. ;)
12:03*peter1138 grumbles at netstumbler not working with his wifi card
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12:18*LordAro grumbles about the routers inability to go through a couple of walls..
12:19<Eddi|zuHause>TEAR DOWN THIS WALL!
12:21<NGC3982>:(
12:21<Rubidium>buy a heavier and more sturdy router and give it more momentum when attempting to make it go through walls
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12:30<NGC3982>if i set station_lenght to 64, build a 64 tile station and then set it back to 16 - what happends to the 64 tile station? nothing?
12:31<@planetmaker>it will happily remain
12:32<frosch123>if it is non-regular, it might loose some of its acceptance area
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12:34<NGC3982>\o/
12:34<NGC3982>non-regular?
12:35<Eddi|zuHause>non-rectangular
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12:47<LordAro>Rubidium/Eddi|zuHause: :D i realised this, and thought about rewording it, but clearly i forgot :)
13:08<dihedral>zoi
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13:16*Alberth zaves hi
13:16<@planetmaker>zallo
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13:18<@Alberth>zoi andy
13:18<andythenorth>bloody swiss :)
13:18<@planetmaker>zelcome back :-)
13:18<andythenorth>zimbledon
13:25<CornishPasty>zhat's going on?
13:26<LordAro>zederer won
13:27<frosch123>it's annoying when you cannot remember why you made some code so complicated
13:27<FLHerne>zhy ze 'z's? :P
13:27<LordAro>for the zevenths time
13:27<LordAro>Zihedral messed up a while back
13:27<LordAro>zis is fun :)
13:29<andythenorth>zennis
13:30<cmircea>Speaking of station_lenght, is the warning still applicable? At what does the game noticeably start to slow down because of it?
13:31*andythenorth zas been zondering
13:31<frosch123>it just increases the cpu time to deliver goods from houses to stations quadratically
13:33<andythenorth>instead of things that make playing with trains better, what else could we do with the game?
13:34<andythenorth>we have stable game, with networking, well-defined content APIs, content distribution service, GS etc
13:34<andythenorth>now what could we do to bend and break it for new interesting game play? :D
13:35<cmircea>frosch123, that's not that bad.
13:35<andythenorth>because 'make stuff a bit more realistic' is hardly interesting :P
13:35<cmircea>Is there any way to reduce property maintenance for airports? In my games it's completely impossible to make ANY money.
13:35<cmircea>Five city airports are 100m a year to maintain, planes make 10-20m.
13:36*Alberth read 'm' as meter, and wondered about the long airport :)
13:37<cmircea>hah
13:37<+michi_cc>cmircea: Where's the problem? Five aircraft per airport and your good ;)
13:37<@Alberth>planes fully loaded?
13:37<cmircea>Yeah.
13:37<cmircea>michi_cc, they spent most of the time circling.
13:38<+michi_cc>But you can change these cost, just like all other costs, with a base cost NewGRF.
13:38<cmircea>I used pb_build, I doubt that affects maintenance.
13:38<cmircea>michi_cc, also 10-20m was for 10 planes, not each.
13:39*andythenorth ponders making tetris in game
13:39<andythenorth>GS generates trains as 'pieces'
13:39<andythenorth>player has to route them
13:39<andythenorth>actually more like the handheld version of Bomber Man where you have to catch stuff
13:40<+michi_cc>AFAIK pb_build is quite old already and still uses GRFv7. If that is so, airport maintenance is modified concurrently with airport construction cost.
13:40<andythenorth>or something like lemmings
13:40<andythenorth>GS starts a train, player has n pieces of track
13:40<andythenorth>and has to route to another depot before the train crashes
13:40<andythenorth>player can't stop the train
13:41<andythenorth>and we need to disable train reversing and have crash instead at end of line
13:42<frosch123>andythenorth: let the gs build a maze of tracks and let it randomly spawn trains
13:42<frosch123>it's the job of the player to avoid crashes with only start/stop
13:43<frosch123>or maybe track modifications
13:43<@Alberth>andythenorth: that game is called pipemania
13:43<andythenorth>I coded a train version of Pipemania for the release of Railroad Tycoon 3
13:43<andythenorth>in Flash
13:43<andythenorth>it was a promo
13:43<andythenorth>I made a mistake - you could loop the train and sit racking up points
13:44*Alberth has also seen a wooden train game much like you describe
13:44<andythenorth>or we could do a "Wages of Fear" mod http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wages_of_Fear
13:44<andythenorth>trucks transport nitro-glycerin
13:44<andythenorth>you have to build safe but fast routes, or they explode
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: translators * r24387 /trunk/src/lang/ (lithuanian.txt vietnamese.txt):
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: lithuanian - 92 changes by Stabilitronas
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: vietnamese - 28 changes by nglekhoi
13:47<cmircea>michi_cc, that's really bad. That might be it.
13:48-!-KouDy [~KouDy@182.41.49.60.kmr01-home.tm.net.my] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
13:48*andythenorth is looking for silly entertaining things that can be patched in a week with GS, newgrf, maybe some patches
13:48<frosch123>andythenorth: can't you just add kieselgur to the trucks?
13:49<andythenorth>silliness only needs to provide a few evenings worth of play to be worth doing
13:49*andythenorth googles kieselgur
13:49<andythenorth>frosch123: only if you mine it somewhere :P
13:50*andythenorth doesn't want to invent new projects that take 3 or 4 years, like FIRS :)
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13:51<andythenorth>frosch123: kieselgur pit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:KieselgurNeuohe4-2.jpg
13:52<Night_Terrors>Hi, I'm having troubles installing 1.2.1 on Ubuntu 12.04.
13:53<frosch123>andythenorth: you can recolour the firs sandpit to yet another colour :p
13:53<andythenorth>yup
13:58*andythenorth ponders pacman
14:00<@Alberth>Night_Terrors: in what way?
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14:04<Night_Terrors>If I install using the Software Center, it displays as 1.1.4 and I know of no ways to upgrade.
14:05<Night_Terrors>Of course I could just be making a newbie mistake since I'm new to Ubuntu.
14:05<@Alberth>that could be right, 3rd party repos are slow in updating
14:06<@Alberth>better uninstall and download the generic linux binary from the site
14:06<Night_Terrors>Alright.
14:09<Night_Terrors>What is the library named as?
14:10<@Alberth>?
14:10<@Alberth>http://www.openttd.org/en/download-stable
14:10<Night_Terrors>Oh nevermind I found it. I might need help going through the installation process of the library. Point me to a guide or something if you need to.
14:12<@Alberth>the readme file schould be sufficient, else there are plenty of knowledgeable people here :)
14:13<@Alberth>and some of them are even awake :p
14:13<@Alberth>Zuu: version 3: http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/diffs/nogo_cargomonitor/
14:16<Night_Terrors>Heh, yeah. I tried asking at like 0200 this morning and no one was here.
14:22<Night_Terrors>It installed just fine. Thanks for the help.
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14:26<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 28555+35286+36801
14:26<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 100642
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 28555+35286+36801+1756642 - 2000000
14:27<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: -142716
14:27<cmircea>Weird issue - TTRS + FIRS = all town buildings look like banks. This doesn't happen if I add FIRS after generating a game. Only in 1920.
14:27<@Alberth>cmircea: known issue
14:28<andythenorth>I thought FIRS disabled with TTRS
14:28<cmircea>Alberth, any workarounds?
14:28<@Alberth>ditch TTRS :)
14:28<Eddi|zuHause>cmircea: afair there was a fixed TTRS around
14:28<cmircea>Alberth, but I like it :<
14:28-!-Illegal_Alien [~Illegal_A@ipd50adc22.speed.planet.nl] has joined #openttd
14:28<Eddi|zuHause>cmircea: ever tried checking the TTRS thread?
14:28<cmircea>Looks like 1930 only has a couple buildings looking like banks
14:28<cmircea>Eddi|zuHause, no idea where it is xD
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14:31<cmircea>Eddi|zuHause, found the fixed version, seems good.
14:32<cmircea>Any bridge newgrf that works with NuTracks?
14:32<Eddi|zuHause>all of them
14:33<@planetmaker>andythenorth: Foobar and myself specifically hacked TTRS to work with FIRS...
14:34<andythenorth>k
14:34<cmircea>Eddi|zuHause, afaik TBRS doesn't support any new tracks. Graphics I mean.
14:34<Eddi|zuHause>have you actually tried it?
14:35<cmircea>Not yet
14:35<cmircea>In the meantime, is there any way to stop the game from filling the whole map with trees? It's ridiculous really.
14:36<Rubidium>cmircea: yes
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14:36<cmircea>Rubidium, any details?
14:36<@planetmaker>adv. settings -> tree growth
14:36<cmircea>oh
14:37<cmircea>planetmaker, in-game placement of trees?
14:39<@planetmaker>that one, yes
14:39*andythenorth wonders how to make a "Smokey and the Bandit" challenge in game
14:39<andythenorth>'deliver beer to the rodeo'
14:40<cmircea>planetmaker, doesn't do much for temperate really.
14:40<andythenorth>"don't get caught by the cops"
14:40*Alberth points to the just posted patch
14:40<cmircea>planetmaker, using the improved algorithm when generating.
14:41<@Alberth>don't get caught is quite tricky though
14:41<@Alberth>no idea how to realize that
14:41<andythenorth>let the GS build roadworks - anywhere
14:41<CIA-4>OpenTTD: frosch * r24388 /trunk/src/ (error.h error_gui.cpp lang/english.txt openttd.cpp): -Fix [FS#5233]: Do not consider not finding a particular base set critical; just load a different one and display an in-game error later on.
14:42<andythenorth>you have to deliver within a time limit
14:42<andythenorth>no need to actually have a 'get caught' mechanic
14:42<andythenorth>that's way too much code for too little benefit
14:42<andythenorth>you get one truck, and unlimited road pieces
14:43<andythenorth>but you have to build routes around the GS placing roadblocks
14:43<andythenorth>also avoid trains and stuff
14:44<andythenorth>hmm
14:44<andythenorth>it would be useful if GS could blow up vehicles
14:44<andythenorth>we have explosion and everything else needed already, just needs a new trigger
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>DesasterScripts!
14:46<andythenorth>ottd is a little too serious imho
14:46<andythenorth>when I played original ttd, I spent most of my time crashing monorails into buses
14:47<frosch123>i still do that if i forget to disable ais since my last ai debug session
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>when i played TTD i haven't even got to electric for over 5 (real) years
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>well, no
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>TT original
14:47<frosch123>(not that i mind ais, but i dislike them spamming the map with roads)
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>i never actually played "pure" ttd
14:48<andythenorth>kind of wondering if our game is a bit in the shadow of what the train nerds did when they created TTDP
14:49<frosch123>andythenorth: just take a look at yapf cost parameters
14:50<frosch123>then ttdp is in the shadow when it comes to train nerds
14:50<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: what makes you think the train nerds actually left :p
14:50<andythenorth>do we have any train nerds present here tonight? :)
14:51<frosch123>Vsomethingsomething is here
14:52*andythenorth tried being a train nerd when younger
14:52<andythenorth>really didn't work for me
14:52<cmircea>What's a good 3-way junction for double tracks?
14:53<frosch123>the one that fits the landscape shape
14:53<cmircea>I have plenty of empty spacer.
14:53<frosch123>boring map then :)
14:53<Rubidium>andythenorth: does working with plannings of trains and measurements with trains of rail count as "train nerd"?
14:54<cmircea>frosch123, in this place anyway xD
14:54<@Alberth>cmircea: when you build with the landscape, every junction is different
14:54<andythenorth>Rubidium: no
14:54<frosch123>cmircea: maybe terraform some hills to make it more interesting :p
14:54<cmircea>frosch123, I have mountains, but on the other side of the map xD
14:54<andythenorth>do you collect numbers? Do you try and achieve mileage with specific locomotives or units?
14:55<Rubidium>andythenorth: actually, I can calculate the milage of specific locomotives with certain numbers ;)
14:57<frosch123>maybe rb wants to add an ultra-detailed track-maintenance game mechanics to ottd
14:57<Rubidium>would be pretty realistic
14:58<Rubidium>including asking for stuff to be measured that isn't actually there
14:59<frosch123>does the moon influence track abrasion?
15:00<frosch123>is the track effort of an engine lower when it's full moon?
15:00<andythenorth>the moon affects earth moving apparently
15:00<@planetmaker>frosch123: sure
15:00<andythenorth>there are land tides, I thought this was april fools, but apparently true
15:01<@planetmaker>tides of the solid Earth are about 50cm in height
15:01<@planetmaker>and of course the attractive force of the moon is the same over sea than over land
15:01<andythenorth>this affects people driving large yellow machines apparently
15:01<andythenorth>if you're trying to move dirt around, and it's moving on it's own there can be issues
15:01<andythenorth>no idea what :P
15:02<@planetmaker>hu, what?
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15:02<frosch123>planetmaker: yeah, but likely the ratio between te and cargo weight is still the same
15:02<frosch123>so we can disregard that influence in ottd
15:03<@planetmaker>frosch123: yes. Except the tiny difference in height ;-)
15:03<@planetmaker>which for all practical reasons is not or at best hardly measurable
15:03<frosch123>anyway, iirc noone liked my suggestion to add a va2 variable for the moon phase
15:04<Rubidium>but do we know the precise moment of the moon phase in the future?
15:04<Rubidium>after all, we don't even know how many seconds it will be until 00:00:00 UTC on 01-01-2020
15:04<frosch123>depends on the precision :)
15:05<frosch123>Rubidium: we know the number of seconds in unix time
15:08<@Alberth>we do? not someone sneakingin an extra second somewhen?
15:09<@Alberth>s/gin/g in/
15:09<frosch123>well, some unix seconds are longer than others
15:12<@Alberth>and /me was thinking only microsoft seconds varied in length! :p
15:13<frosch123>ms only changed the ordering of time
15:13<frosch123>"50 seconds" left is followed by "30 minutes left" is followed by "20 seconds left" or so
15:15<@Alberth>ROFL!
15:15<@planetmaker>Rubidium: we do know the exact moments... astronomer's don't use UTC. But rather JD or, if needed, UT
15:16<Rubidium>planetmaker: but trains and airlines use the common time, which would be UTC. As such OpenTTD would use that (or one of its derived time zones)
15:16<@planetmaker>:-)
15:16<Rubidium>interestingly... the definition of the second has changed twice since 1967
15:17<@Alberth>is 1967 significant?
15:17<Rubidium>1967 is when they stopped a second being 1/86400th of a mean solar day
15:17<frosch123>it changed? i thought the leap-seconds mess is only to not change it?
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15:17<Rubidium>in 1967 it became X periods of caesium 133
15:18<@Alberth>frosch123: no, it's about having equal length of every second
15:18<Rubidium>in 1997 they limited it to caesium at rest
15:18<Rubidium>and then in 1999 they defined an ambient temperature as well
15:19*andythenorth ponders using GS to do something like a Berlin Siege scenario
15:19<andythenorth>'no building road / rail within 100 tiles of this town'
15:19<andythenorth>'deliver x cargo per day by air'
15:19*andythenorth knows war is out of scope, but still, could be interesting
15:20<@Alberth>but airports are hopeless for large amounts of cargo
15:20<frosch123>andythenorth: just buy a lot of land around it
15:20<andythenorth>Alberth: that's a challenge right?
15:20<frosch123>and put stuff on it that cannot be bridged
15:20*Alberth would consider it impossible
15:20<frosch123>and make it so low that it cannot be tunneled
15:21<@Alberth>frosch123: make a mountain to max height and one to min heigh :)
15:24<andythenorth>can GS prevent route building?
15:25<andythenorth>or is GS too low-frequency?
15:26<andythenorth>I could just try writing one and see for myself :P
15:27<andythenorth>but I'm in a mood to be one of those people who just talks talks instead of codes codes
15:27<@Alberth>ok, can you explain how to crash nml?
15:27<andythenorth>yes
15:27<andythenorth>reference a string that doesn't exist
15:28<andythenorth>possibly you need to reference it as a substr
15:28<andythenorth>would sample code be easier?
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15:28<@Alberth>what is a substr? a function?
15:29*Alberth always likes copy/paste code to reproduce faults
15:29<@Alberth>but you're in a talk mood :)
15:29<andythenorth>Alberth: got a check out of FISH?
15:30<@Alberth>not at the moment
15:30<andythenorth>if you use r749, it's deliberately broken for you to test with
15:31<andythenorth>[brb]
15:31<@Alberth>thanks
15:32<andythenorth>you need to use the 'makefish.sh' script to build
15:32<andythenorth>if the build succeeds, the shell script will then fail for you (hard coded to my filesystem)
15:32<andythenorth>but the build will fail ;)
15:34<@Alberth>good, you don't want it to work by accident ;)
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15:38<@Alberth>confirmed, it boomed at nml
15:39<@Alberth>will have a look later this week
15:39<@Alberth>good night al
15:39<andythenorth>Alberth: it's missing the string '2_diesel_cycloidal' or such in this case
15:40<andythenorth>change it to '2_diesel' in the cfg, and it will build
15:40<andythenorth>and bye
15:40<@Alberth>andythenorth: nml should tell me :)
15:40<andythenorth>only if you add a print ;)
15:40<andythenorth>it helps to know what the error *should* be I find :)
15:40<andythenorth>kind of like a perverted unit test :P
15:41<@Alberth>I made a note, thanks, and good bye
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15:51<__ln__>http://www.theverge.com/2012/7/7/3143099/jolla-meego-startup-ex-nokia-employees
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16:10<Hirundo>frosch123: Can you tell if r22926 (extended act1 fix) will be backported to 1.2?
16:11<@planetmaker>fix... usually yes
16:12<andythenorth>http://www.toptruckgames.com/game/train-mania.html
16:13<@planetmaker>Hirundo: do you see any reason to not backport it?
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16:14<frosch123>in the specs i said 1.3 now
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16:14<@planetmaker>oh
16:14<@planetmaker>hm
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16:14<frosch123>but only to not make versions checks too complicated
16:15<frosch123>but there is no reason to not backport
16:17<Hirundo>question is, if nml should use the feature (after 1.2.2 is released)
16:17<@planetmaker>hm, ho
16:18<@planetmaker>that is a different question...
16:18<Hirundo>yes indeed
16:18<@planetmaker>As much as it hurts me, but I think it should not before NML 0.4
16:19<@planetmaker>That said... would it hurt to support an NML 0.3 and 0.4 branch in parallel?
16:19<@planetmaker>where 0.4 requirements is 1.3.0-alpha support (thus changes) and 0.3 is OpenTTD 1.2 branch support
16:20<Hirundo>For ext act1 only, it's TMWFTLB imo
16:21<Hirundo>I don't know if there are other features, that need 1.3 (apart from some new variables etc)
16:22<@planetmaker>A few new ones (like the railtype signals). But they don't break the NewGRF compatibility as much as ext. A1
16:24<@planetmaker>New variables are easily dealt with within a NewGRF. Action1 format is not... so if we offer no means to make NewGRFs for OpenTTD 1.2.0 when implementing ext. A1 we might defer it.
16:24<@planetmaker>I don't like the choices :-)
16:25<@planetmaker>what happens when OpenTTD 1.2.0 finds a NewGRF with an ext. A1 as of now?
16:25<Hirundo>feces meets fan
16:27<Hirundo>you basically can't load a extA1 grf in 1.2.0
16:27<@planetmaker>that's what I thought. Hmpf
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16:29<Hirundo>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/3739 <- set target version to 0.4
16:30<cyph3r>Someone just connected to a server and asked "Hi, I've never played this before, where can I download some HD graphics? Also, where can I start building?"
16:30<cyph3r>People these days...
16:31<@planetmaker>well. what did you reply? :-)
16:31<cyph3r>I told him to download Sim City.
16:43<andythenorth>these monster truck-style flash games are too addictive :P
16:43<NGC3982>cyph3r: harr.
16:53<andythenorth>hmm
16:53<andythenorth>if making a truck game
16:53<andythenorth>top down view
16:53<andythenorth>don't have just one speed
16:53<andythenorth>don't make the truck explode if I touch the edge of the road
16:53<andythenorth>don't have steering that won't return to center at all
16:54*andythenorth -> bed :P
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16:59<NGC3982>:D
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17:09<@Terkhen>good night
17:11<@planetmaker>good night here, too
17:17<dihedral>cyph3r, LOL
17:22<frosch123>night
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17:26*NGC3982 realized ctrl+click stop trains.
17:41<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Mon Jul 09 00:01:03 2012