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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-07-09

---Logopened Mon Jul 09 00:01:03 2012
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02:22<@Terkhen>good morning
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02:25<NGC3982>morning.
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03:35<dihedral>greetings
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05:19<KillSpammer>Ello
05:21<dihedral>ey
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05:41<@planetmaker>moin
05:45<dihedral>hello planetmaker
05:45*NGC3982 just made his forst successful sql repair.
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06:28<fuzxl>Hello!
06:28<fuzxl>Which AI is best for a beginner to play against?
06:29<fuzxl>I played against RoadRunner and it's pretty tough
06:46<welshdragon>Is there a way to override the 'Town is too close to another town' error in OpenTTD?
06:55<dihedral>create 2 small towns as close as possible and grow them later on? :-P
06:55<Eddi|zuHause>http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/376512_366226713442650_573040824_n.jpg
06:55<Eddi|zuHause>welshdragon: that is a hardcoded limit, so it can only be changed by patching
06:56<welshdragon>:s
06:57<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 415893/9
06:57<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 46210.3333333
07:01<dihedral>because running the os own calculator is too mainstream? :-P
07:05<Eddi|zuHause>it's more keys
07:11<@Terkhen>fuzxl: IIRC there is an AI comparative somewhere, probably in the wiki
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07:37<fuzxl>okay
07:37<fuzxl>Thank you, Terkhen
07:37<@Terkhen>yw
07:48<fuzxl>Is there a mod that gives sprites for stations with more than two platforms?
07:49<fuzxl>It looks somehow ridiculous that a station with three platforms has one roof and one platform without a roof
07:51<+michi_cc>Best NewGRF for passenger stations is NewStations IMHO. Not on the online content though
07:51<fuzxl>okay
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08:09*dihedral seems to be a fuzz-nutt!
08:10<@peter1138>michi_cc, sadly so :-(
08:11<@peter1138>One of these days someone™ will step up to the challenge and make a contender to rival it.
08:18<Eddi|zuHause>one of these days we'll make an exception to the ToS for CC-like licenses.
08:44<@Terkhen>what kind of exception?
08:47<__ln__>would it be completely out of the question to -- without using newgrf -- not draw any roofs on stations that are not close enough to cities?
08:48<Hirundo>If you build stations platform-by-platform, you get no roofs
08:49<__ln__>i don't want to.
08:50<Hirundo>Your other options are either using newgrf or patching openttd
08:51<__ln__>but seriously, why would a cargo-only station next to a forest or mine or whatever have a roof.
08:51<__ln__>yes, i am talking about patching openttd.
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08:54<__ln__>the roof is even a separate sprite as far as i know, so not drawing it would technically not be a terribly big problem.
08:55<Hirundo>You can patch ottd all you like, but I don't expect such a patch to end up in trunk, as this is exactly what newgrfs were invented for
08:55<__ln__>lol, i definitely don't expect any patch to end up in trunk.
08:55<Hirundo>But you could certainly apply a patch locally and join MP servers, compatibility should be no issue
08:59<__ln__>but does the existence of newgrfs mean that no changes will ever be done to the actual code anymore?
09:01<@Terkhen>in general, any options that can be implemented via newgrf are not considered for implementation in openttd
09:02<@Terkhen>there are exceptions though, such as currencies
09:02<__ln__>how silly is that
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09:05<dihedral>i think i possibly have a bug in the date handling of openttd
09:06<dihedral>if _date = 713012 the game is at 1952-2-29
09:06<dihedral>if _date = 713013 it's 1952-2-1
09:06<@Terkhen>__ln__: why is not wanting to duplicate work in both implementation and bug checking silly?
09:08<NGC3982>http://play-ttd.com/
09:08<NGC3982>did you guys make this?
09:09<Hirundo>dihedral: If I fast-forward through february 1952, I see nothing strange
09:09<dihedral>yes - i did not see it in game either... i am somewhat puzled right now
09:09<@Terkhen>NGC3982: no, check the suggestions subforum
09:10<dihedral>i am using a ConvertDateToYMD(_date, &ymd); in a daily loop
09:10<dihedral>and printing every day
09:11<dihedral>make
09:11<dihedral>ops
09:14<@peter1138>February happened twice in 1952.
09:16<__ln__>Terkhen: the stations are drawn some way in the code already (as far as i understand, without the help of newgrfs). so the duplicate work already exists, adjusting the code slightly does not change the situation.
09:18<Hirundo>__ln__: What about people who do like roofed stations and suddenly find the roofs removed?
09:19<@Terkhen>what if a newgrf author decides that he always wants roofs? or if an old newgrf uses the roof sprites to hack something that it is not a roof? the openttd code would need to deal with those cases
09:19<__ln__>Hirundo: they can use a newgrf then, right?
09:20<Hirundo>I think *you* should be the one using a newgrf
09:20<__ln__>Terkhen: so newgrf roof drawing relies on openttd at least trying to draw the roof?
09:21<__ln__>Hirundo: but i don't like newgrfs.
09:22<Hirundo>That, fortunately, is not my problem
09:23<@Terkhen>I don't know the implementation details
09:23<Hirundo>If you don't like newgrfs, you can't expect openttd to behave the way you like, just so you can live without newgrfs
09:24<@Terkhen>I was assuming that it worked like you mentioned
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09:25<__ln__>Terkhen: i'm 89.3% sure the platform and roof sprites are separate (and therefore drawn separately), but i don't know how newgrfs works.
09:26<__ln__>-s
09:28<@Belugas>hello
09:28<@Terkhen>hi Belugas :)
09:29<@Belugas>sir Terkhen :) faithfully at the station ;)
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11:50<Rubidium>dihedral: are you really sure of that? Isn't it 1952-1-29 then 1952-2-1?
11:52<dihedral>Rubidium, i was also using _cur_year and _cur_month+1, as soon as i only used the calculated ymd value, i could not reproduce it
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11:53<dihedral>i assume they only get set after the daily loop runs?
11:56<dihedral>yes, that's it
11:56<dihedral>so within a dailyloop, making use of _cur_month should not be done
11:56<dihedral>some thing with monthly loop making use of _cur_year
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12:15<dihedral>Rubidium, is it done on purpose that _cur_month is set after dailyLoops run?
12:19<frosch123>doing stuff at the end of month vs. doing stuff at the begin of month
12:19<frosch123>isn't it?
12:23<dihedral>it's stil the same month!
12:29<frosch123>hmm, why was the "vehicle is hidden" flag aded to var 62?
12:30<+michi_cc>frosch123: I'd guess for easier coding of non-glitching tunnels in CETS.
12:31<frosch123>is there any chance that someone reading the specs might think that it might refer to the current vehicle, instead of the one addressed by the 60+x parameter?
12:38<frosch123>oh, the variable is not supported by nml?
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12:55<+michi_cc>frosch123: Stupidity is unlimited, so yes, somebody could misunderstand it, but I think it is pretty clear.
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12:59<@Alberth>moin all
13:00<@Terkhen>hi Alberth
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13:44<andythenorth>rabbits!
13:46<CIA-4>OpenTTD: translators * r24389 /trunk/src/lang/ (9 files): (log message trimmed)
13:46<CIA-4>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<CIA-4>OpenTTD: catalan - 3 changes by mtormo
13:46<CIA-4>OpenTTD: dutch - 3 changes by habell
13:46<CIA-4>OpenTTD: english_US - 3 changes by Rubidium
13:46<CIA-4>OpenTTD: finnish - 2 changes by jpx_
13:46<CIA-4>OpenTTD: german - 3 changes by planetmaker
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13:49<@Alberth>andythenorth: what about the following error: "fish.nml", line 268: String "STR_2_DIESEL_CYCLOIDAL" not available
13:49<andythenorth>looks fine
13:49<andythenorth>line number is enough
13:50<@Alberth>I shall remove the string name :D
13:56<andythenorth>well...it's helpful :P
13:57<@Alberth>issue 3932 looks like yours
13:59<andythenorth>yup
13:59<@Alberth>also the same spot
14:05<@Terkhen>andythenorth: I have seen a game in which a recycling depot is producing over 6000t of recyclables :P
14:07<andythenorth>excellent :)
14:07*andythenorth needs inspiring to some TTD stuff
14:08<NGC3982>make me a year one truck.
14:08<NGC3982>or make me an expert in sql query.
14:08<NGC3982>:(
14:09*andythenorth considers making a kitten related GS
14:09<@Terkhen>andythenorth: since the server they are playing has no train support for recyclables, the player who is trying to transport them created a huge traffic jam :P
14:09<andythenorth>great :)
14:09<andythenorth>it's a very large city?
14:10<@Alberth>NGC3982: use LINQ, and pretend to be an expert
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14:12<@Terkhen>andythenorth: 89465
14:12<andythenorth>they should get ships
14:12<andythenorth>and build a canal
14:13<@Alberth>and dump the trash in the canal :p
14:13<andythenorth>that's one 200t barge per day, nothing :P
14:13<@Alberth>posted the patch
14:13<andythenorth>ah FIRS :)
14:13<andythenorth>one day I might work on it
14:14<andythenorth>I got interested, then I got bored because it's not very good really
14:14<andythenorth>bloated, lacks interesting gameplay
14:14<andythenorth>I like the graphics though
14:14<@Terkhen>it is quite good IMO :P
14:15<@Alberth>add economies so you can have a smaller set?
14:15<andythenorth>perhaps
14:15<andythenorth>it fails to generate interesting maps
14:15<andythenorth>and placing them in scenario editor is 'meh'
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14:16*andythenorth is hoping Pikka returns with TAI
14:17<andythenorth>maybe I'm starting my games too early
14:17<andythenorth>1870
14:17<@Alberth>aren't you waiting forever with the horse driven vehicles?
14:18<andythenorth>lots of industries missing in 1870
14:18<andythenorth>and the ships aren't finished either :P
14:18<andythenorth>the new industry types generally don't get added to the map
14:18*Alberth imagines half-finished ships floating passed :)
14:19<andythenorth>if I put the renders in, that's what you'd get ;)
14:19<andythenorth>hmm
14:19<andythenorth>fix rivers?
14:20*Alberth nods
14:20<andythenorth>diagonal rivers?
14:20<andythenorth>rivers that get wider near the sea?
14:20<andythenorth>the basic river algorithm is pretty pleasing
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14:21<Wolf01>hello
14:21<andythenorth>ice roads!
14:22<@Alberth>hi Wolf01
14:23<@Alberth>less easy deletable rivers
14:23<@Alberth>s/y/ily/
14:23<andythenorth>yes
14:23<andythenorth>oh yes that
14:24<andythenorth>just store 'this tile wants to be river' already :)
14:24<andythenorth>perhaps it's not that easy :P
14:24<andythenorth>map layers!
14:24*andythenorth ponders GS
14:24<frosch123>hmm, what's the correct behaviour for fs#5213?
14:24*andythenorth ponders adding a Warehouse / Port industry
14:24<frosch123>deny the cloning to clone invalid orders?
14:25<frosch123>*or
14:25<andythenorth>deny the clone?
14:25<andythenorth>are orders still an arse for articulated RVs btw?
14:25*andythenorth checks
14:26<@Alberth>copy the invalid orders into the clone?
14:26<andythenorth>hmm
14:26<andythenorth>inconsistencies
14:26<andythenorth>trying to route an articulated pax vehicle to drive-in stop produces error string
14:26<frosch123>currently i am pondering copying invalid orders if they are already invalid for the source
14:26<andythenorth>trying to route to a truck stop doesn't
14:27<andythenorth>game doesn't know what the right thing to do is here
14:27<frosch123>andythenorth: you can route it to a drive-through stop and then replace the dts with a normal one
14:27<andythenorth>it will just drive round in circles then?
14:28*andythenorth remembers that behaviour
14:28<@Alberth>frosch123: the cloned copy will get caught by the order checking anyway
14:28<@Alberth>or we need to ask confirmation
14:28<frosch123>andythenorth: sometimes they even skip the order
14:28<@Alberth>but that's a lot of hassle
14:29<@Alberth>hmm, if they share orders, the problem is not growing
14:29<andythenorth>"Oil has been discovered near Beaberg. You need to move people and supplies to the oil fields, and transport the oil out. There is a port at Sluchester Falls which will supply some of the cargos you need, and accept the oil. Other cargos you will have to find yourself from the map."
14:30<andythenorth>"Your company has a 30 year concession to move as much oil and supplies as possible"
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14:30<frosch123>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1523/ <- currently i have that
14:30<andythenorth>"But if your town rating drops too low for too many years, your concession may be revoked"
14:30<andythenorth>^^^ etc
14:30<andythenorth>sound interesting?
14:31<andythenorth>would be either a specific map, or a generic map
14:31<andythenorth>generic / random /s
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14:32<frosch123>oh, ogfx+rv had no articulated vehicles?
14:32<@Alberth>not that I remember
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14:34<@Alberth>andythenorth: I think it'd be useful if the GS could give you such assignments
14:34<andythenorth>no idea if it can
14:34<andythenorth>I don't really understand GS
14:34<@Terkhen>frosch123: none at all :P
14:35<@Alberth>GS can open windows with message :)
14:35<frosch123>well, i had to edit my grfs ingame to get some :p
14:35<frosch123>i had already layed my testtrack, so did not want to restart :)
14:36<andythenorth>GS can't spawn industries?
14:36<@planetmaker>yes. somewhat
14:36<frosch123>the gs needs a rich uncle
14:37<frosch123>take a look at zuu's split scenario
14:37<andythenorth>needs designed so that it doesn't have to control the newgrf
14:37<andythenorth>hmm
14:38<andythenorth>anyone want to poke at it with me, or something like it?
14:38<Zuu>frosch123: :-)
14:38<andythenorth>I won't work on it on my own, lacking motivation :P
14:39<@Alberth>Zuu: did you find my new patch?
14:39<Zuu>Yep, I haevn't yet tried it out.
14:39<Zuu>What did you change?
14:39<andythenorth>GS would be independent of vehicle newgrfs
14:39<andythenorth>would require FIRS
14:39<Zuu>Do I need to update the GS or did you just fix bugs?
14:39<andythenorth>would be interesting to make it work on any random map :O
14:40<andythenorth>actually....would want control over mapgen, GS can't do that?
14:40<@Alberth>generalized to monitoring towns as well, and does load/save of the monitored combinations into the savegame
14:41<@Alberth>I tried your script, and it works nicely for the industry part
14:41<@Alberth>but it'd be nice if it could also do some testing with towns
14:42<Zuu>I'll take a look at it eventually. Currently I work on my t-loop website.
14:43<@Alberth>I have to re-check the doxy comments, then find out whether it is good enough :)
14:43<@Alberth>If it is, it'll probably end up in trunk quite soon-ish
14:44<Zuu>ok
14:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: frosch * r24390 /trunk/src/order_cmd.cpp:
14:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: -Change [FS#5213]: Allow cloning of orders which are unreachable for the
14:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: destination vehicle if they were already unreachable for the source vehicle.
14:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: This makes cloning/autorenewing/autoreplacing behave more smooth during station
14:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: reconstruction.
14:45<Zuu>Ah sorry for not being overenthuastic. I see it may certainly be useful, Im just having my focus elsewhere tonight. :-)
14:46<@Alberth>Zuu: np, that just happens
14:47<@Alberth>it is just that I have vacation now, so I have more time and want to get this out of the way
14:48<@Alberth>since your script worked for the industries, I don't really expect trouble with the towns, as it works in exactly the same way as the industries
14:48<andythenorth>Alberth: you have vacation :O
14:48<@Alberth>so I see little reason to wait much
14:48<andythenorth>go somewhere sunny
14:48*andythenorth assumes northern europe is not sunny for Alberth
14:49<@Alberth>I like not too much sun
14:49<@Alberth>20+ degrees is enough for me
14:49<andythenorth>it was 33' in Sardinia
14:50*andythenorth liked it
14:50<andythenorth>on the flight, it was obvious that there is solid low cloud all the way from UK to Grenoble
14:50<andythenorth>then pure sun :P
14:51<andythenorth>also vacation means you can join my new GS project :D
14:51<NGC3982>huh, grenoble.
14:51<@Alberth>andythenorth: you didn't read my patch did you? :)
14:51<andythenorth>nope
14:51<andythenorth>:)
14:53<@Alberth>+/** @file script_cargomonitor.hpp Everything to monitor cargo pickup and deliveries by companies. */ <-- a small extract from it
14:54<andythenorth>ho
14:54<andythenorth>:)
14:54<andythenorth>there's a GS forum somewhere
14:54*andythenorth rummages
14:55<andythenorth>does GS yet have a 'challenge goals progress' screen?
14:55<andythenorth>replacing the stupid existing 'game goals' screen
14:56<andythenorth>"Detailed Performance Rating" <- should die :P
14:56<andythenorth>I want things like "Amount Cargo X delivered (all time)"
14:57<frosch123>what i actually miss most about gs is a logbook
14:57<andythenorth>"Amount Cargo Z delivered to Frondingham since 1974"
14:57<andythenorth>logbook?
14:57<frosch123>whenever i played one of zuu's scripts i wanted a method to read the messages i just closed
14:57<andythenorth>history
14:57<@Alberth>they are not in the news history?
14:58<frosch123>the news history has only news, not goal questons/info boxes
14:58<andythenorth>game log
14:58<andythenorth>interesting
14:58<Zuu>frosch123: For the tutorial, I think the messages also end up in the AI debug window.
14:58<Zuu>For the split scenario, I don't think that GS prints its messages to the debug log.
14:58<frosch123>Zuu: haha, so the debug gui is part of the tutorial :)
14:59<Zuu>The tutorial does it for historical reasons. TutorialAI used signs for display and they are even more unreadable than centered text in a window. Especially if you were unlucky with the color selection.
14:59<frosch123>anyway, some usages of the current popup windows could also be replaced by some objectives windows
15:00<frosch123>which comes closer to what andy meant with the performance rating
15:01<frosch123>hmm, is 12pm noon or midnight?
15:02<Rubidium>yes! ;)
15:02<Zuu>:-)
15:02<frosch123>looks like 12pm = (12 + epsilon) pm
15:03<Rubidium>that's why you NEVER use 12pm or 12am in the real world
15:03<NGC3982>http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s720x720/555804_10150922044841466_43498764_n.jpg
15:03<frosch123>i thought that's why every advanced civilisation does not use am and pm?
15:04<frosch123>am and pm are way better suited to run #coop :)
15:10<@Alberth>especially in the morning
15:12<frosch123>i was always wondering whether they do 12 hours shift at #coop
15:12<frosch123>wrt. admin-support
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15:15<@planetmaker>lol, frosch123 ;-)
15:16<frosch123>see, i almost never see am, but i am also usually only here during pm-hours
15:18<NGC3982>am or pm seems to be a 18th century thing
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15:38<Afdal>Hey sometimes I run into a bug
15:38<Afdal>in multiplayer and while fooling around alone
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15:38<Afdal>where all the trains in a game will forget to regularly service
15:39<Afdal>Does anyone know what causes this?
15:39<@Alberth>breakdown disabled?
15:39<Afdal>enabled
15:40<Afdal>I just had it happen right now while I was messing around with the change date cheat
15:40<@Alberth>hmm, no idea then
15:40<Afdal>and resetengines
15:40<Afdal>while fast-forwarding
15:41<@Alberth>that counts as fooling around yeah :)
15:41<Afdal>however sometimes it happens during a normal multiplayer game
15:41<Afdal>with no fiddling like that
15:42<@Alberth>at least in the latter case, a bug report with savegame would be useful
15:42<Afdal>Haven't seen it happen in a while but the last time was in a v1.1.5 or so game
15:43<@Alberth>do the dates of last service seem ok then?
15:43<CIA-4>OpenTTD: frosch * r24391 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Change [FS#5229]: Disallow original and better road layouts to build roads under bridges along the bridge direction.
15:43<Afdal>well I have the last service date on this as 2076
15:43<Afdal>and I have the year set as 2043 now
15:44<Afdal>so that would probably explain what happened there
15:44<@Alberth>that sounds like a date cheat effect
15:44<Afdal>yeah
15:44<Afdal>But I'm fairly certain this happened in a multiplayer game with no date cheating one time
15:44<Afdal>Buuuut maybe it didn't
15:44<@Alberth>I don't think it counts as real bug, cheats have all kind of weird side effects
15:45<@Alberth>well, if you find one without cheats, please report it, so we can have a look at it
15:45<Afdal>yeah, will do
15:45<Afdal>Don't have that save anymore but if I come across it again I will
15:46<@Alberth>also not in the autosave?
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15:46<Afdal>nah, that was way too long ago
15:46<@Alberth>k
15:46<@Alberth>it's just that many people forget they exist :)
15:47<Afdal>Actually, I do have a save
15:47<Afdal>where this happened
15:47<Afdal>But no proof that it happened
15:47<Afdal>other than the fact that the date cheat checkbox isn't checked
15:47<@Alberth>if you let the game run, no train should get serviced, right?
15:48<@Alberth>oh, did you move depots?
15:48<Afdal>no, they service now
15:48<@Alberth>they have to be close enough to the lines they drive on to find the depots
15:48<Afdal>but they didn't at one point, and everyone's company profits nosedived for a while
15:48<Afdal>Yeah I don't think it was a pathfinding issue
15:48<Afdal>I can't remember what fixed the problem though
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15:49<@Alberth>I have seen that happen where I used old trains too long, so they break down all the time
15:49<Afdal>it wasn't that though
15:49<Afdal>everyone was using the latest trains
15:49<@Alberth>and then they reach 1% reliability, and break down every 3 tiles, while driving to the depot :p
15:50<Afdal>heh
15:50<Afdal>One thing I know that resolves this issue during a game is sending trains to depot
15:50<Afdal>to reset the maintenance
15:50<Afdal>but I can't remember if that's what we did
15:51<@Alberth>yeah, it doesn't matter how they reach the depot, but you want it happening automatically
15:52<andythenorth>hmm
15:52*andythenorth needs some kind of Hello World GS
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15:53*Afdal needs an IRC-OpenTTD relay bot that works on Windows
15:53<andythenorth>maybe just pops up a dialog with "Hello World"
15:53<Afdal>We all can dream though can't we
15:53<@Alberth>Afdal: another possible explanation is if you have a depot in the orders
15:54<@Alberth>then it won't go looking for a depot any more
15:54<Afdal>hmmm
15:54<Afdal>well in this game we were relying entirely on automatic maintenance
15:54<Afdal>so nothing in the orders
15:58<@Alberth>andythenorth: the split scenario GS may be a good starting point?
15:58<andythenorth>do I look in forums for that?
15:58<frosch123>bananas
15:58<@Alberth>bananas :)
15:59<frosch123>but you can thank zuu afterwards via the scenario forums :p
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16:00<Zuu>andythenorth: I have a template/minimal GS that I duplicate whenever I want to create a new GS. :-)
16:01<@Alberth>Afdal: usually, such problems are path-finder issues, see eg http://bugs.openttd.org/task/3831
16:01<Zuu>I could upload it somewhere if you want it. But it might be a bit silent as "hello world".
16:01<Zuu>TransportGoals is otherwise a fairly short GS.
16:01<Zuu>that still does something.
16:03<andythenorth>maybe I play Split scenario first ;)
16:03<andythenorth>looks interesting
16:04<Afdal>yeah it's nothing like that Alberth
16:04<Afdal>all the tracks in this save are simple uh
16:04<Afdal>one-track-per-direction networks
16:04<Afdal>with short distances to depots
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16:05<@Alberth>Afdal: without a save game in a broken state, it is sort of hopeless to find anything, I think
16:05<Afdal>yeah :(
16:05<@Alberth>just keep an eye out, and let us know when you find anything
16:06<Afdal>alll right
16:06<Zuu>andythenorth: Some people complained that it was too easy, so the current second version is quite a bit harder. Mostly you may run out of time if you are too slow.
16:06<Zuu>The goal will wait forever, but the secondary industries doesn't wait forever.
16:06<@Alberth>sorry andy :)
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16:11<andythenorth>good night
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16:33<@Terkhen>good night
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16:44<LordAro>devs: http://www.reddit.com/r/openttd/comments/saszh/openttd_120_has_been_released/ <-- thoughts? (the thread that i commented in)
16:45<frosch123>just let them play simcity
16:47<Nat_aS>http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/8926/openttdbadbrettmodtown.jpg
16:47<Nat_aS>UGH
16:47<@planetmaker>what shall we think? It's how it is
16:47<Nat_aS>why do people think Locomotion is a good direction for graphics?
16:47<@planetmaker>models scale easier
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16:49<Nat_aS>well they kind of have a point, but Newgrf is more important then they think it is
16:49<@planetmaker>they are important. But many in the forums probably also overrate them ;-)
16:50<frosch123>Nat_aS: actually they do not have a point
16:50<@planetmaker>the forums = our forums.
16:50<Nat_aS>it's better to slowly work on modernising the game without upturning Newgrfs in the process, than it is to just throw the baby out with the bathwater.
16:50<frosch123>they are suggesting to replace one plugin mechanism with a different one
16:50<@planetmaker>Nat_aS: is it?
16:50<frosch123>but the problems they critisize is that plugins depend on each other and cannot be replaced one by one without affecting the other ones
16:51<frosch123>but that problem does not change when changing the plugin mechanism
16:51<Nat_aS>a lot of OTTDs problems is because it's a game from the 90s that was never intended to be this big of a modding sandbox
16:51<Nat_aS>but it's still somehow a better modding sandbox than Simutrans
16:51<Nat_aS>which was designed from the ground up
16:51<@planetmaker>it has some historic ballast there. But... would it be better if freshly designed?
16:51<Nat_aS>which is strange
16:52<Nat_aS>I have no idea why they don't give modders more options in Simutrans
16:52<Nat_aS>you get one company color, and one empty/loaded sprite
16:52<Nat_aS>no half full or random cargo options
16:52<@planetmaker>the challenges are in how mods interact. What info individual mods get. And what they may (all) change
16:52<frosch123>i am not that fluent with simutrans, but isn't it like you can only load one mod (pak) at a time?
16:52<Nat_aS>there are so many more options avalable to OTTD modders it's not even funny
16:52<frosch123>i.e. you always have to provide a complete baseset and cannot do small things
16:53<Nat_aS>I'm not sure, but I think so.
16:53<frosch123>well, then compare the number of paks for simutrans with the number of basesets for ottd :p
16:54<@planetmaker>:-)
16:55<frosch123>LordAro: anyway, you can compare that library idea with patchpacks
16:55<frosch123>it only works for a few patches and then totally collapses
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16:57<@planetmaker>the suggested split of the features in "libraries" is what we advocate for long: one feature per newgrf
16:57<LordAro>i shall probably be sharing this section of the log with the OP, as long as that's alright :)
16:57<@planetmaker>doesn't mean that they're magically working well together in a sense of good looking. But means it will work most likely
16:57<@planetmaker>@logs
16:57<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd
16:57<@planetmaker>^^
16:57<@planetmaker>it's public
16:57<frosch123>LordAro: i am a fan of teamliquid.net, so reddit is bullshit :p
16:58*planetmaker tries to figure out what teamliquid might be... doesn't quite get the idea from the main page
16:59<frosch123>planetmaker: starcraft 2
16:59<@planetmaker>I guess I never really played it
17:01<frosch123>anyway, to stress some myths: tl is the "good, well moderated forum" while reddit is the "unmoderated troll-area" :p
17:01<LordAro>frosch123: http://www.xkcd.com/386 :P
17:02<Nat_aS>4chan is where all the cool kids hang out, Reddit is a bunch of children and newbies
17:03<frosch123>yeah, luckily there are places where no cool children hang out
17:03<Nat_aS>kewl kidz
17:03<frosch123>maybe we can move tt-forums offtopic to reddit :p
17:04<frosch123>reddit is quite suited for offtopic stuff
17:04<Nat_aS>reddit has managed to draw a lot of fail away from 4chan
17:04<LordAro>it isn't really that bad, as long as you don't read the comments :L
17:04<Nat_aS>just like youtube
17:05<frosch123>or spiegel.de :p
17:05<Afdal>wat
17:05<Afdal>when has youtube ever gotten cancer off 4chan
17:05<Afdal>if anything it's brought more to it
17:06<Nat_aS>no i mean youtube is good as long as you don't read the comments
17:06<frosch123>the up-voted comments on yt are usually fine
17:06<Afdal>I'm thinking more along the lines of attention whores
17:06<Nat_aS>that too
17:06<Afdal>hay guise I made you a video
17:06<Afdal>remember to vote 5
17:07<Nat_aS>tits or gtfo
17:07<Afdal>btw im a gurl
17:07<KillSpammer>I'm a gurl too.
17:08<Afdal>Although I'm thinking more of the Let's Play whores currently scumming up /v/
17:08<Afdal>Although livestream probably did more for that than youtube
17:08<LordAro>this place is quite good: http://www.reddit.com/r/talesfromtechsupport
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17:13<Nat_aS>http://www.reddit.com/r/talesfromtechsupport/comments/w9s84/910am_do_you_have_any_tricks_to_make_a_computer/
17:13<Nat_aS>wow
17:13<Nat_aS>first time I read something on reddit that increased my faith in humanity
17:14<LordAro>it is a rare occurrence :)
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17:15<Nat_aS>The "decade long civ2 game" was pretty cool, but the fact that mainstream news sources reported on it like a video game was somehow prophetical negated that.
17:16<NGC3982>wat
17:16<NGC3982>a decade long civ2 game?
17:16<Nat_aS>somebody has been playing the same game of Civ2 on and off for more than 10 years, (He has a life but for some reason he keeps coming back to it)
17:17<Nat_aS>and it's a dystopian future resembling 1984
17:17<Nat_aS>1700 years of neuclear warfare
17:17<Nat_aS>http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/uxpil/ive_been_playing_the_same_game_of_civilization_ii/
17:17<LordAro>pretty cool dat
17:18<LordAro>am i saw it before the media found it! :)
17:18<LordAro>*and i
17:18<NGC3982>Nat_aS: sweet jesus
17:19<frosch123>yeah, when those things get on mainstream media its always like seeing the movie when you already know the book
17:20<frosch123>like, you know already all details, then are amazed that it gets on mainstream, and then you are shocked how wrong the article is :p
17:20<Nat_aS>"I was forced to do away with democracy roughly a thousand years ago because it was endangering my empire," Lycerius writes; his Senate kept overruling him when he wanted to declare war on the Vikings.
17:20<Nat_aS>he however refuses to switch to Fanatasism
17:20<Nat_aS>despite everyone's sugestion
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17:28<NGC3982>:D
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17:51<frosch123>night
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18:48<Wolf01>'night
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21:20<drac_boy>hi
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22:21<waterfoul>anyone know what you need to include in order to use _settings_game
22:55<waterfoul>hmmm trunk/src/table/settings.h won't compile
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23:22<waterfoul>I'm having lots of errors when compiling settings.h it starts with error: ‘SLF_SAVE_NO’ was not declared in this scope
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---Logclosed Tue Jul 10 00:00:02 2012