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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-07-10

---Logopened Tue Jul 10 00:00:02 2012
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02:35<@Terkhen>good morning
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03:00<@Alberth>moin planetmaker, Terkhen
03:01<@Terkhen>hi Alberth :)
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03:24<@planetmaker>hi Alberth
03:30<@planetmaker>salut dihedral
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03:34<dihedral>how are you sir? :)
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03:43<dihedral>Rubidium, the issue i saw yesterday was my mistake - sorry about that
03:44<dihedral>however, in order to avoid this issue from showing up again, is it ok if i provide you with a patch that sets _cur_year and _cur_month /before/ onNewDay() or respectively onNewMonth() is called
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03:58<@Alberth>sounds like a good idea, except wouldn't that break existing uses? (I don't know what issue you discussed btw)
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04:39<dihedral>Alberth, it's a difference of setting those values before or after calling onNewDay() or onNewMonth() respectively
04:39*Alberth nods
04:39<dihedral>if (ymd.month == _cur_month) is used to check if a new month has start
04:40<dihedral>ding a bool newMonth = ymd.month == _cur_month; _cur_month = ymd.month; onNewDay(); if(newMonth) ...
04:41<dihedral>would have the affect of _cur_month being accurate even in the code of what gets executed in onNewDay()
04:41<@Alberth>yes, but currently it assumes the 'broken' value
04:42<dihedral>the value is only broken at the first of a month ;-)
04:42<@Alberth>so that code has to be found and repaired too
04:42<dihedral>_cur_month and _cur_year are broken at the first of the year
04:43<@Alberth>and you don't expect that someone hacked around it ?
04:43<dihedral>do you expect something like if == 0 use _cur_month + 1?
04:44<dihedral>Alberth, I expect that if there is a hack around it, it can show up until the next release :-D
04:44<@Alberth>no idea, I'd suspect all uses of the variables until proven it does not get called with 'wrong' values
04:45<dihedral>right then - i'll look through all code executed through onNewDay() and onNewMonth() to be 100% sure
04:45*Alberth ponders whether it can end up in a savegame
04:45<dihedral>you store _date ;-)
04:46<@Alberth>as long as you don't save a game from within the OnNew{Day,Month} it's ok, I think :)
04:47<@Alberth>hmm, "autosave every month" does not sound promising then :(
04:48<dihedral>_date is already updated
04:49*Alberth discovers the new drop-down buttons in the advanced settings, nifty :)
04:49<dihedral>it would be silly to store _date and _cur_year and _cur_month in a save game if the later 2 are calculated out of _date
04:50<@Alberth>that would be another patch :)
04:51<dihedral>_cur_date nore _cur_year are used in saving
04:51<dihedral>_cur_year is used in afterload.cpp
04:52<dihedral>which in turn then must be already calculated
04:56<dihedral>DoDisaster uses _cur_year :-)
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04:57<dihedral>so in theory, a disaster would never get cleared if this part is executed on the 1.1. :-)
04:57<dihedral>because then _cur_year is the same as at the 31.Dec
04:57<dihedral>so in fact this would fix a bug :-D
04:57<dihedral>that nobody every noticed :-D
05:05<dihedral>_cur_year also used in ChangeIndustryProduction()
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05:27<welshdragon>Now I know why I don't play OpenTTD much these days... I can't use the latest NewGRF's in Chill's PP :s
05:28<FLHerne>Handrake's PP supports them, although with less crazy patches. Has most of the core ones though
05:29<FLHerne>i.e. timetabling, CDist, bridge/tunnel sharing. Major absence is infra-sharing :-(
05:29<@Alberth>welshdragon: depending on your definition of OpenTTD, you may not have played it for much longer ;)
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05:31<welshdragon>Alberth: the thing I like is Chilli's. I'm guessing it'll be 2013 before we get a GRF v6 version thiugh
05:33*planetmaker wonders since when grf v6 is outdated. Certainly for at least two or three years...
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05:33<dihedral>now you have the age of that patch pack ;-)
05:33<@planetmaker>welshdragon: most likely many new NewGRFs don't work with chillPP
05:33<@planetmaker>dihedral: last summer mostly
05:36<dihedral>Alberth, AddInflation is also affected, not really crucial but the year that inflation should stop will still have inflation added in January
05:37<@Alberth>I have that disabled, so I don't care :D
05:38<dihedral>so it seems like it only affects things that should or should not run in January
05:38<@Alberth>but it is always surprising how much dirt you can turn up :)
05:39<dihedral>(either should run on the 1.Jan but then get executed on the 2. Jan, or should not run in January but then in turn do not get executed anymore in February)
05:39<dihedral>Alberth, i'll take that as a compliment :-D
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05:42<Eddi|zuHause><Alberth> welshdragon: depending on your definition of OpenTTD <-- i'd say "has 'openttd' in its binary name" should suffice :)
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05:45<welshdragon>I've played OpenTTD for seven years, Chill's PP for nearly eight months
05:50<dihedral>i think the first time i entered this channel was dec 2006 or jan 2007 ... iirc
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05:53<jonty-comp>pfft, i have lurked here since the beginning of time
05:53<jonty-comp>emerging occasionally to make a sarcastic comment at a mibbit user
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06:03<@Alberth>to quit with a modified file, use :q!
06:05<Eddi|zuHause>nice boy. now fetch that stick again |
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06:27<dihedral>i hate it when xchat has focus :-P
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06:33<@Alberth>bool newMonth = ymd.month == _cur_month; <-- looks like "not_new_month" to me :) (and watch the camel-case)
06:44<Eddi|zuHause>dihedral: maybe there is a windowmanager behaviour "never give xchat focus"
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07:21<dihedral>Alberth, :-)
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08:34<dihedral>Alberth, <- better?
08:41<@Alberth>the "yes, "does not make a lot of sense any more, imho. Also, I seem to be missing 'fixes' for bugs that you found
08:42<@Alberth>ie the code change of changing the update moment of the year should be separate from the bug fixing that you cause
08:43<@Alberth>otherwise no-one is going to find back those changes
08:43<@Alberth>(other than by bi-secting)
08:44<@Alberth>or the change should be called a bug-fix :p
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08:48<@Alberth>useful :)
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08:51<dihedral>Alberth, the change is the bug fix
08:52<dihedral>the bugs are that certain things are run in February rather than January, or on the 2nd rather than on the first of Jan
08:52<dihedral>the code further down the line does not need chaning
08:53<dihedral>this fixes the fact that i.e. a desaster recovery can happen on the 1.Jan
08:53<@Alberth>yeah, but my problem is that the patch does not show what you actually fix
08:53<dihedral>... how should it?
08:54<dihedral>it sets _cur_year and _cur_month before executing any OnNew(Day|Month|Year)() functions
08:55<dihedral>which is mentioned in a comment before setting the variables
08:56<dihedral>i do not quite follow how the patch should emphasize it
08:56<dihedral>hello Belugas
08:56<@Alberth>one way is to make it a real code change, ie change the year update and make sure the disaster + production(?) act exactly like they do now, then add a fix patch to correct them again
08:56<@Alberth>another way is to see the current patch as bug fix, but then an issue with a discussion of what it fixes is needed at least (although the latter may be useful in the first way too)
08:57<@Alberth>dihedral: which is mentioned in a comment before setting the variables <-- no need to repeat what the code already says :)
08:57<dihedral>it just stresses the importance ^^
08:58<@Alberth>well, make an issue would be best I think
08:58<@Alberth>I am not going to commit it without someone else looking at it too
08:59<@Alberth>and they are all doing other things currently, it seems :)
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09:02<dihedral>i totally understand what you mean :-P
09:07<@Belugas>i wonder... it it's a new month, it would be logical to test for a new year. otherwise, it would not
09:14<FLHerne>What's all this date stuff about, anyway?
09:14<dihedral>however, you want _cur_year to be accurate before running OnNewDay() else the 1st Jan is in the old year
09:14<@Belugas>we are trying to re-invent the calendar as you know it :)
09:15*dihedral thinks openttd calendar should end on the 21. Dec. 2012
09:16<FLHerne>For some strange code reason?
09:17<FLHerne>Perhaps you should switch to the Discordian calendar...
09:17<FLHerne>"Today is Sweetmorn, the 45th day of Confusion in the YOLD 3178"
09:18<@Alberth>Nah, the problem is much more generic. We need a number sequence without 'nice' numbers
09:23<@Alberth>to stop people from giving them special meaning, as they don't get that they cause a number being special in the first place
09:25<FLHerne>Er...and the real reason? :P
09:25<@Alberth>what real reason?
09:25<@Alberth>ie 1.1 is special only because we one time decided to start counting days in a certain way
09:26<@Alberth>so you are just celebrating your own numbering system, nothing more ;)
09:26<FLHerne>Ah. So what problem does that cause?
09:27<@Alberth>it's just stupid to give meaning to numbers you picked yourself
09:30<@Alberth>eg 11259375 is just as nice as 56789, yet people don't see it because they are stuck in the decimal system :p
09:31<FLHerne>So what do you propose instead?
09:31<@Alberth>not give special meaning to numbers at all?
09:33*FLHerne doesn't really see it
09:34<dihedral>today is the 7257839th day
09:34<dihedral>what year you ask? what is a year??
09:34<dihedral>Alberth, that could be very nasty in this world :-D
09:35<@Alberth>FLHerne: let me ask it another way, why is 11:07 never a time for a meeting?
09:36<@Alberth>why is it always 11:00 or 11:15 ?
09:38<@Alberth>but to meet at "660 minutes" to day feels weird. If we measuer a day in minutes, we'd meet at 650 or 700 minutes or so
09:38<@Alberth>ie we pick a number system, and then give some numbers special meaning
09:41<@Alberth>but we do it for any number system, which makes it a totally ad-hoc meaning :p
09:41<FLHerne>I see. Does OTTD code use years, months etc atm then?
09:42<FLHerne>And you don't want it to?
09:42<FLHerne>Got it :P
09:43<@Alberth>hence "we need a number sequence without 'nice' numbers" :D
09:44<@Alberth>although it may not exist
09:48<dihedral>actaully openttd works with ticks per day and days
09:48<dihedral>and converts days into year month day format
09:49<FLHerne>Would your new system allow the no. of ticks per year to be varied? That would be convenient
09:50<dihedral>ticks are only per day
09:51<@Alberth>you'd end up with the problems of the day-length patches I suspect
09:51<dihedral>Alberth, shall we introduce a leap tick :-D
09:52<@Alberth>and vehicles shall drive a bit slower to compensate :D
09:53<FLHerne>Ok...would it be possible to separate displayed/vehicle introduction dates from the ones that payment, production, speed etc are calculated from?
09:53<FLHerne>Wasn't that the problem with (most) daylength patches?
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09:55<@Alberth>that's one thing I still like to try, and you can do it entirely in NewGRF I think
09:56<@Alberth>just make a NewGRF that has eg steam for 50 years before introducing diesl
09:56<@Alberth>so around 2050, we have electric :p
09:57<@Alberth>no idea why we have those powerplants 100 years early, but who cares :D
09:57<FLHerne>But that would need all grfs modified to match (industries, townsets, RVs, ships...)
09:57<FLHerne>The date would look silly, too :P
09:58<@Alberth>why is the date silly?
09:58<@Alberth>openttd is not simulation the real world :)
09:59<FLHerne>It can, and I prefer it to :P
09:59<Hirundo>In that case, it might be better to display the year as "Year 1" instead of "1950", to make clear that it's not realistic (tm)
10:00<FLHerne>There are enough 'realistic' GRFs that it can come quite close (other than the 45 degree angles, of course :P )
10:02<@Alberth>FLHerne: imho trying to mimic reality is not the best solution for play, I hate having to choose between 30 engines
10:03<FLHerne>Differences of opinion then. I hate being constrained to 3... :P
10:04*Belugas raises his mug to Hirundo!
10:04<@Belugas>and to Alberth!!
10:05<@Alberth>cheers :)
10:05<FLHerne>I also keep practically every station set loaded, in case I need one tile from some obscure one :P
10:06<FLHerne>Thanks for making a game with so many potential playing styles, anyway :D
10:08<Afdal>I wish there were more unrealistic newGRFs :(
10:09<Afdal>Whatever happened that that NUTS project
10:10<Afdal>oh wait a second
10:10<Afdal>oh god, it's been released hasn't it
10:10<@Alberth>we need more toyland NewGRFs!
10:10<Afdal>oh goooood
10:10<Afdal>when did I miss this
10:11<@Alberth>look at the release date :p
10:14<@Belugas>in which format ? ;)
10:20<@Alberth>any format, but relative to the speed of the earth flying through the universe would be useful :)
10:21<@Alberth>hmm, does that even exist? :)
10:22<dihedral>Alberth, but you could close FS 4632 :-P
10:24<@Alberth>doesn't look like everybody would agree with that action ;)
10:25<FLHerne>@fs 4632
10:25<dihedral>Alberth, well apart of the reporter?
10:36<dihedral>can a GS create a cost for a company?
10:37<FLHerne>Does anyone here know how to use the AV8 maintenance-cost parameter?
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10:38<FLHerne>The text/description are rather ambiguous, and I'm not sure which choice is which :-(
10:39<FLHerne>Also, eGRVTS2 is a great improvement :D
10:52<dihedral>i still have the dream of creating a penalty cost :-P
10:53<dihedral>you as an admin need to get grips on a player - fine the company - or force a give money command as company #
10:56*NGC3982 makes lemonade
10:56<@Alberth>GS can act as a company, not sure what it can do w.r.t. money
10:58<dihedral>yeah - but 'acting' as a company does not mean i could add a cost under 'other' of say 20 million $
11:02<@Alberth>taking or giving money should be possible probably, perhaps with an accompanying news item
11:02<@Alberth>so it stays transparent who is giving/paying money
11:03<dihedral>that would really be fun :-D
11:03<dihedral>has to be queued as a DoCommand though
11:04<@Alberth>I always wondered whether getting caught bribing should be a news item too :p
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11:08<dihedral>Alberth, i think so too, it's a boo boo :-D
11:22<Afdal>Does anyone know if it would be possible to make a newGRF engine impossible to breakdown, with breakdowns enabled?
11:22<Afdal>A breakdown-enabled logic engine sure would be nice
11:25<@Terkhen>I'm not sure but I don't think that's possible
11:25<@planetmaker>Neither do I think it's feasible
11:28<dihedral>so a 'reliability' of 100% could still cause a breakdown to be triggered?
11:28<dihedral>hih that's funny
11:28<@planetmaker>iirc there's table which relates the reliability to a breakdown counter
11:28<@planetmaker>which is rolled a dice against
11:29<Afdal>that's too bad
11:30<Afdal>is it possible to hope for a feature request someday?
11:30<Afdal>logic trains are such a neat emergent property of OpenTTD and it's a shame that you can only use them with breakdowns off
11:31<Afdal>maybe just an option to selectively turn off that RNG for newgrfs
11:35<Pinkbeast>Well, a way to say "this vehicle never breaks down" would not really hurt, in a newgrf.
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11:36<@planetmaker>Pinkbeast: why?
11:36<@planetmaker>either you play with breakdowns: then it's usual that *every* vehicle may break down
11:36<@planetmaker>or you don't play with them. And then no vehicle breaks down
11:36<@planetmaker>there's no 100% reliability
11:37<@planetmaker>so, playing with a logic engine and "realistic" settings is folly anyway
11:37<@planetmaker>and tbh, I don't want to give NewGRFs the option to disable breakdowns
11:38<@planetmaker>it's not their can of beer
11:39<Pinkbeast>ISTR some newgrfs introduce what are effectively dummy powered vehicles for spacing &c, and surely they should not go breaking down?
11:40<@planetmaker>only the lead engine can break down
11:40<@planetmaker>and "dummy" lead engines is a hack
11:40<@planetmaker>not worth introducing further complications
11:43<Afdal>that's really too bad :(
11:44*Alberth wants all engines to break down every now and then!
11:44<CornishPasty>At the same time? You monster!
11:46<dihedral>Alberth, how about a disaster: war :-D
11:46<NGC3982>simultanus break downs is a god damnet relief.
11:46<@Alberth>out of the scope of the game, it's not family-friendly
11:47<Pinkbeast>Only the lead engine can break down - but if breakdowns ever work in a less totally aggravating fashion, the consequences will be different for double-headed trains
11:47<dihedral>teddy bear wars? "it's so fluffy"
11:47<Pinkbeast>family-friendly: well, neither is driving a diesel shunter over your opponents' fully loaded busses. # yeah, kidding, don't want war in OTTD either
11:47<@Alberth>dihedral: I am afraid you have to have your pillow wars on your own bed :D
11:48*NGC3982 kicks of season 7 of star trek tng
11:48<dihedral>poor sod :-D
11:49<dihedral>funny actually how i stubled of the date thing in openttd - i was trying to fix the date handling in my bot :-P
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12:23<MiraCZ>hey there
12:23<MiraCZ>I'd like to ask if there is an hosting for OpenTTD
12:24<MiraCZ>I cant have my PC 24/7 online
12:24<NGC3982>the swedish media are in some sort of zombie state today
12:24<__ln__>MiraCZ: virtual servers are available commercially
12:25<NGC3982>a woman cries out in our biggest "newspaper" (note the quotation marks) about not being allowed on a big roller coaster
12:25<NGC3982>since she was fat enough to risk the lifes of all the others on the coaster
12:25<MiraCZ>Is it hard to setup OpenTTD server on VPS?
12:26<NGC3982>of course, the newspaper and the somewhat so-heavy-she'll-create-some-sort-of-singularity lady missed that this coaster (balder) was the only one that had a queue beginning with "please try this fake chair first - or no-go!"
12:29<MiraCZ>or does anyone here offer server for little price? :)
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12:30<NGC3982>MiraCZ: there are several forums posts regarding using VPS for OpenTTD servers. have a google on "OpenTTD + VPS" or visit this particular one:
12:31<NGC3982>for most systems, there should be no problem - even with virtual ones.
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12:33<@Terkhen>MiraCZ: with regard to difficulty; as long as you are comfortable with rcon and the console, managing it is not very complicated
12:33<@Terkhen>to my knowledge there is no updated remote managing program though
12:36<NGC3982>im not sure on how a server is configured on a linux system, but i guess SSH would solve most problems with remote configuration
12:36<NGC3982>if rcon is set aside.
12:36<MiraCZ>thank you
12:51<NGC3982> <- look at this. it's 2045 (non-grf game).
12:51<NGC3982>how come i cant replace the balogh truck, with the goss truck?
12:53<@Alberth>how come a truck from 1935 still exists?
12:54<@Alberth>but I don't know why :(
12:54<NGC3982>i have no idea.
12:54<@Terkhen>vehicles never expire must be on
12:55<NGC3982>it's off
12:55<NGC3982>but the goss goods truck is still available, and i can buy it manually?
12:55<@Terkhen>and since the Goss appears with a 0, I guess that you have a Goss -> Balogh replacement already
12:55<@Terkhen>the game will not let you have circular replacements
12:56<NGC3982>it works.
12:56<NGC3982>Terkhen: thank you.
12:58<@Terkhen>good :)
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13:16<Eddi|zuHause>what if i set goss->balough in a group. and then balough->goss in the all-group?
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13:21*andythenorth ponders how to make ottd for toddlers
13:22<andythenorth>he is 2 years 5 months
13:22<andythenorth>he likes ottd a lot
13:22<@Terkhen>Eddi|zuHause: worth a try, I guess it is allowed then :P
13:23<andythenorth>"I want people there" -> points to football pitch
13:23<andythenorth>"no people"
13:23<andythenorth>apparently we need NewPeople
13:23<andythenorth>really quite wanted here
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>only if they "walk" to destinations
13:25<andythenorth>BANDIT trucks should shorten their trailer when it's invisible
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>it would be helpful to shorten vehicles to 0
13:26<andythenorth>doesn't that blow stuff up somehow?
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13:27<Eddi|zuHause>but the HEQS refit magic doesn't work in CETS, because each vehicle consists of 3 vehicles already, and their position is relevant for the curve magic
13:27<Eddi|zuHause>we need NewMagic
13:28<andythenorth>did I mention the Wooden Train grf idea?
13:29<FLHerne>Yes :P
13:29<andythenorth>our geometry is pretty similar to wooden trains
13:29<FLHerne>It was a good one :-)
13:30<@Alberth> <-- andythenorth
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13:30*andythenorth will try later
13:30<FLHerne>Presumably would be easy to do with 3D models? Nice simple shapes...
13:31*Alberth ponders wooden smoke
13:32<NGC3982>bah, this talk about smoke :(
13:32<andythenorth>yes, CGI would be good for wooden train
13:35<CIA-4>OpenTTD: alberth * r24392 /trunk/src/vehicle_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#5239]: Use the 'all vehicles' group for the autoreplace window from the vehicle list.
13:35<frosch123>hmm, xkcd has a twitter
13:35<frosch123>one tweet, 11242 folowers
13:36<andythenorth>what happens if we use 2x and 4x zoom on the GUI?
13:36<andythenorth>can I haz my eyes back?
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13:43<frosch123>use the biggui grf
13:44<Wolf01>hello o/
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13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: translators * r24393 /trunk/src/lang/ (finnish.txt hungarian.txt korean.txt):
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: hungarian - 8 changes by Brumi
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: korean - 4 changes by telk5093
13:46<FLHerne>andythenorth: Suggestion: Non-track CHIPS tiles as NewObjects?
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13:47<CIA-4>OpenTTD: glx * r24394 /trunk/src/video/win32_v.cpp: -Fix (r24188): changing resolution didn't resize the window
13:48<@Alberth>FLHerne: but then you cannot have cargo on them
13:49<FLHerne>Alberth: True, but in some situations that isn't necessary. NewObject plain tiles would allow dock areas to be finished off properly
13:50<@Alberth>FLHerne: make a newobject grf yourself? it's all gpl
13:51<FLHerne>Alberth: True. Might be a simple first grf, actually :-)
13:51<FLHerne>Hopefully NML supports NewObjects?
13:51<@Alberth>I would expect so :)
13:52<@Alberth>I think it does
13:52<@Terkhen>hi Wolf01
13:52<@Alberth>hi Wolf01
13:52<Wolf01>hi Wolf01
13:52<FLHerne>hi Wolf01
13:52<FLHerne>Alberth: Good. Might keep me occupied and stop me making pointless suggestions for a while...
13:53<@Terkhen>hi Wolf01
13:54<Wolf01>ok, let's go from the start again
13:54<@Alberth>FLHerne: before you know it, you'll be a productive member of this community ;)
13:54<FLHerne>Aaargh! :P
13:55<@Alberth>and you suddenly get commit rights everywhere :p
13:58-!-kkimlabs_ [~kkimlabs@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd
13:58<@Terkhen>but also a lot of responsibility!
13:59<@Terkhen>and then, one terrible day, you find yourself answering to pointless suggestions on IRC
14:06-!-Djohaal [] has joined #openttd
14:10<@Alberth>or the issue tracker :D
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14:15*FLHerne shudders :P
14:37<CIA-4>OpenTTD: alberth * r24395 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Doc: Fixed argument references in @param descriptions.
14:42<andythenorth>non-track-bit stations on all slopes?
14:43<andythenorth>or we just allow the crazy 'trains climb 1height level thing' :)
14:43<andythenorth>worth patching locally if you haven't seen it ;)
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the problem is this awful "fallback" mechanism when a station set is not loaded
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14:45<andythenorth>sounds broken
14:46<andythenorth>the grf is missing, ergo the savegame is broken no?
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>all it needs is storing the "non track" bit in the map array
14:52<andythenorth>make it so!
14:52<andythenorth>then we have better stations on coasts :)
14:52<andythenorth>not sure it solves it actually
14:52<andythenorth>anyway, andythenorth -> pub
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14:56<@Alberth>doesn't work in #openttd :)
14:56<@Alberth>but the site has a web-page with them
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15:14<NGC3982>bah, i still cant get autoreplace to work - again.
15:14<NGC3982>it suddenly works
15:15<NGC3982>and it stops working again.
15:16<Hirundo>got enough money?
15:16<NGC3982>yes, billons and billion
15:16<NGC3982>..s and billions.
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15:31<Hirundo>Eddi|zuHause: I wondered, are there also non-track waypoints?
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>Hirundo: not yet :)
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think the specs forbid it...
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>waypoint is just a magic station class
15:33<Hirundo>"not yet", meaning "it's possible, but no-one has made such a newgrf yet"?
15:34<Hirundo>specs make no distinction between stations/waypoints IIRC
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15:55<frosch123>you will have trouble building waypoints with a platform length > 1
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: just place two after each other?
15:55<frosch123>never tried that
15:56<frosch123>but they will not exactly join like a platform
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>they can do the same adjacency checks as stations
15:57<frosch123>yeah, but there is something like "build as one part" and "build in two parts"
15:57<frosch123>though somewhen in the past that behaved different for stations and waypoints
15:57<frosch123>no idea whether that got fixed since dragable waypoints
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>it used to be that separate waypoints behaved like a single one wrt graphics, but that got changed...
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16:01<Eddi|zuHause>gnah i hate touchpads...
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>can i configure a touchpad to not "click" on touch?
16:01<frosch123>get a touchscreen
16:01<Nat_aS>depending on the machine yes,
16:01<frosch123>then you can hate that one
16:02<Nat_aS>synaptic drivers usualy have an option for that in properties
16:02<Nat_aS>what kind of computer?
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>some old toshiba laptop with windows 7
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>or vista, not sure
16:03<Nat_aS>well assuming the pad is made by synaptic, click the little arrow in the system tray, and find the icon for touchpad
16:03<Nat_aS>or just go into mouse properties in the controll pannel
16:03<Nat_aS>it's one of the first things i do if i get a new laptop
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>it's constantly clicking while i move the pointer, it's not even funny...
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>it says "no access to synaptics device" when i click on mouse properties
16:07<Nat_aS>oh dear
16:07<Nat_aS>is there an icon for synaptics in the controll pannel?
16:08<Nat_aS>sometimes the driver is it's own thing
16:08<Nat_aS>if that dosn't work, then it's safe to say you have a problem
16:08<Nat_aS>perhaps with the driver itself
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>it says "synaptics ps/2 device" in the hardware tab
16:08<Nat_aS>get a USB mouse in the meantime and research it
16:08<frosch123>or ask one of your cats
16:09<Nat_aS>yeah but in the control panel, sometimes the synaptics driver get's it's own icon.
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_aS: but then it wouldn't complain about synaptics devices if it wasn't the synaptics driver
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16:17<Eddi|zuHause>the weird thing is, it deactivated the clicking, but i haven't actually changed any settings...
16:18<Hirundo>frosch123: OpenTTD source tells me that Action1 spriteset IDs are feature-specific, but the specs aren't very specific about that
16:18<Hirundo>Can I assume that behaviour (and possibly update the specs) or is it an implementation detail that I shouldn't rely on?
16:19<frosch123>i think we only made them feature specific together with extact1
16:19<frosch123>likely nforenum won't like it
16:19<frosch123>and ttdp won't like it anyway
16:19<Hirundo>before that, there was only one action1 'active'
16:19<frosch123>anyway, let's check my logs
16:20<frosch123>we dicussed that during extact1 design
16:20<Hirundo>NML grfs are only eaten by ottd >= 1.2 anyways, so nforenum/ttdp don't matter much
16:22<frosch123> <- haha, there is still the TODO item :p
16:22<frosch123>so, the discussion was whether mixing should be allowed to share sprites between features
16:24<Hirundo>Is there a use case for that, that doesn't violate the "one $thing per newgrf"-rule too badly?
16:25<frosch123>yes, if we allow industries to place newobjects :)
16:25<frosch123>anyway, you can always still duplicate the sprites
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>eyecandy stations vs. objects
16:28<frosch123>Hirundo: yexo was clearly favouring the do-not-mix-features approach
16:28<Hirundo>duplicating is pretty trivial in NML, and with grfv2 you don't even need to duplicate the actual sprite data
16:29<frosch123>i don't find an objective argument in the logs though
16:29<frosch123>just "yes, please" :p
16:29<frosch123>Hirundo: i noticed that nml duplicates on its own. in debug vehicles i used the same spriteset for trains, rv and tramd
16:29<frosch123>and nml just made it work :)
16:31<Hirundo>and I wondered, if anyone would ever use that :-)
16:31<frosch123>Hirundo: if you want to check back yourself, devzone 15 june 2011 contains most
16:31<frosch123>there are multiple usecases, non-cases and alternatives
16:31<frosch123>including a featue FF if a spriteset shall apply to everything
16:32<Hirundo>Unless there is a compelling reason, I suggest no changes
16:33<Hirundo>saves coding, hence more time for discussion ;-)
16:33<Hirundo>The duplication-argument is pretty moot anyways with grfv2
16:34<frosch123>oh, right, there was another feature in that direction
16:35<Hirundo>at least when using NML (after I coded that feature), I don't know how smart grfcodec is
16:36<Hirundo>Michi requested it, albeit for different reasons:
16:37<frosch123>i think grfcodec just uses the spritenumber as id
16:38<frosch123>so, it cannot deduplicate
16:38<frosch123>i guess everyone was hoping for nml :p
16:39<Hirundo>anyways, if we decide to keep the current behaviour, it should be documented in the specs, right?
16:40<frosch123>only for the ext. format then
16:40<frosch123>hmm, nah, just write for ottd >= 1.2
16:41<frosch123>else people would think that it does not apply for the normal format :)
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16:53<Hirundo>frosch123: documentation done, could you check that it makes sense?
16:54<@Terkhen>good night
16:55<frosch123>looks fine
16:56<frosch123>thanks :)
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17:05<LordAro>so, in summary, my patch is fine, but due to bananas needing changes, it won't be implemented, yes?
17:08<frosch123>i like it also without bananas extension
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17:13<LordAro>well commit it then :P
17:13<frosch123>did not look at it yet
17:15<LordAro> <-- i have a new desktop background :)
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17:35<FLHerne>LordAro: Impressive background :D
17:35<FLHerne>Anyone here played 0AD?
17:36*FLHerne wonders whether to try it out
17:37<dihedral>what use would that have? :-P
17:38<Rubidium>OpenTTD only starts in 1AD
17:38<FLHerne>No, the AoE-ish OSS game :P
17:38*FLHerne needs to be clearer, clearly :-(
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17:38<LordAro>i played AoE[II] fairly exensively
17:39<FLHerne>As did I. That's why I was looking at
17:39<FLHerne>Unsure whether it's worth downloading (yet) though
17:41<LordAro>sounds like another ripoff of AoE if you ask me...
17:41<LordAro>wait, it's free :)
17:41<FLHerne>Yeah, but an open-source one :D
17:41<FLHerne>Aargh, need to type faster :P
17:41<+glx>it's started from scratch IIRC
17:44<LordAro>as long as it's not like freeciv, sounds good :)
17:44<FLHerne>I tried FreeCiv. It seemed totally incomprehensible :-(
17:46<LordAro>it's just not CivII...
17:48<FLHerne>Never played the commercial ones, so can't compare against them, but even AoE I had better graphics/gameplay/UI than FreeCiv, IMO
17:48*FLHerne downloads 0AD
17:49<LordAro>FreeCiv is just so counter-intuitive, at least to me (who's played II, III and IV)
17:49<LordAro>i got bored quickly :L
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18:19<FLHerne>It's quite impressive, actually :-)
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18:41<Eddi|zuHause>after playing Civ IV and V, i can
18:41<Eddi|zuHause>'t possibly go back to Civ II rules
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18:45<Pinkbeast>Civ IV was the first that didn't make me think "I'd rather be playing Civ n-1"
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19:02<waterfoul> I can't compile settings.cpp, errors: I'm gonna guess an include file is missing
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19:30<Eddi|zuHause>waterfoul: very likely the real problem is in a completely different place
19:32<Eddi|zuHause>Pinkbeast: i never had that feeling about any civ (though i skipped III)
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19:49<Eddi|zuHause>where does virt-manager (or qemu?) save the vm's metadata?
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21:08<Pinkbeast>Eddi: honestly, II, Call to Power, III, Alpha Centauri, even Freeciv...
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---Logclosed Wed Jul 11 00:00:03 2012