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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-07-11

---Logopened Wed Jul 11 00:00:03 2012
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01:41<Rubidium>waterfoul: what version are you actually trying to compile? Doesn't look like anything recent-ish to me
01:42<Rubidium>more like rather ancient
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02:35<@Terkhen>good morning
02:36<NGC3982>please, dont make me start playing civ again
02:36<NGC3982>i have just aquired a life.
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02:47<dihedral>good morning
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03:02<@Terkhen>good morning dihedral
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03:02<dihedral>a ludde?
03:02<dihedral>hej hej
03:03<@Terkhen>NGC3982: I won't tell you about the many civilization IV mods, then
03:03<@Terkhen>hi ludde
03:04<NGC3982>Terkhen: :)
03:05*NGC3982 played civ2 as a kid
03:05<@Terkhen>I started with 1, having no idea
03:05<@Terkhen>some freeciv
03:05<@Terkhen>and then 4
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04:44<@peter1138>Hmm, anyone use TinyCa generated SSL certificates?
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05:39<dihedral>peter1138, i only have certificates
05:39<dihedral>they are free :-)
05:40<@peter1138>Yeah, just I used this CA for years before that sort of stuff existed.
05:40<@peter1138>Internal CA for internal stuff, kinda thing.
05:41<@peter1138>Only issue is that for some reason Windows often won't let me assign a TinyCA generated certificate to RDP
05:42<@peter1138>(And I need to use the internal CA for identity certificates too)
05:44<blathijs>peter1138: Perhaps the certificates have the wrong role or usage type (or whatever it's called...)
05:48<@peter1138>Hmm, nsCertType is "SSL Server"
05:48<@peter1138>keyUsage / extendedKeyUsage are not set.
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05:54<@peter1138>Right, I'll try changing that and having a go...
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06:22<@peter1138>blathijs, great, that did the job. Thanks for the hint.
06:23<@peter1138>Now if only the Linux RDP client would support TLS :-(
06:24<@peter1138>Can't be impossible, I have one on my phone that manages it.
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06:28<@peter1138>Okay, possible xfreerdp, but Squeeze's version is too old... :S
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06:29<@peter1138>Yup, the Wheezy version is good.
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06:32<@peter1138>And X11 doesn't listen on tcp anymore. Hmm.
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08:03<NGC3982>having the new improved zoom in mind, is there any plans on increasing zoom levels for the map window aswell?
08:05<FLHerne>What would the point be? It shows the things it's designed to show fine already
08:12<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: it was decided a while ago to not include map zoom (in)
08:12<Eddi|zuHause>(there was a patch for that, but only the zoom out part was included)
08:13<@Alberth>euhm, I rewrote the entire patch :)
08:14<Eddi|zuHause>quite possible :)
08:15<@Alberth>and as FLHerne already said, I did not see any point in adding zoom-in
08:16<@Alberth>in fact, today, I'd favour merging main display and minimap window
08:17<@Alberth>with the major problem being what to do with the bottom part of the minimap that explains the symbols
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08:18*Alberth ponders not adding a minimap to FreeRCT
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08:19<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: a "map toolbar" similar to the transparency toolbar, that allows showing some overlay data?
08:20<Eddi|zuHause>some hybrid of the 64x zoom out patch and the catchment/town area overlay patch (which i forgot the name of)
08:20<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: i see. thank you.
08:20<NGC3982>FLHerne: nothing particulary practical. i usually use the map to keep my eye on potential clogs and wait-makers.
08:21<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: use extra viewports (V key)?
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08:22<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: town area overlay? how would that come into play?
08:22<@Alberth>hi glx
08:23<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: it had a separate window where you could select what to show in the overlays
08:23<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: also cargodist has a window to select overlays
08:23<@Alberth>ah, that would seem useful :)
08:29<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: yes, that is a neat option.
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08:43<Hirundo>Alberth: I'm currently looking into your NML patch for andy's crash in FISH r749
08:44<Hirundo>But if I do 'make', I get lots of nfo (including warnings, my renum might be ancient) but no NML anywhere
08:44<Hirundo>Do I need to change some config setting?
08:44<@Alberth>make on fish?
08:45<@Alberth>run ./
08:45<Hirundo>ah, thanks
08:46<@Alberth>I am not sure what exactly the right point is in checking existence
09:03<Hirundo>get_translation is also used when outputting strings (in action4 etc), best not touch that
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09:12<Hirundo>Alberth: I applied your fix a little higher in the call stack, thanks for the patch
09:13<@Alberth>ok, thanks for checking & fixing :)
09:28*Belugas was "rediscovering" the Rolling Stones, yesterday evening. Was playing Gimme Shelter and Paint In Black on the garden, after sunset.
09:29<@Belugas>and a neighbour came in, with his guitar, and we both kept on playing those :D
09:29<@Belugas>that was... a thrill
09:30<@Alberth>something to repeat one evening :)
09:33<@Belugas>yeah, i guess. would be lovely if i could do it with Truebrain, though
09:34<@Belugas>or, even better, with peter1138, but on his keyboard!
09:34<@Belugas>mh.. that would start to look like woodstock...
09:37<@peter1138>Unlikely, my keyboard is playing silly buggers.
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09:37<Hirundo>Eddi|zuHause: I'm not sure if I should consider a bug or a feature request
09:38<@peter1138>If I press fairly hard it'll send the proper note-on then a note-off and a quiet note-on
09:38<@peter1138>I guess there's a continuity issue somewhere.
09:38<@peter1138>But I haven't figure out how to take the keybed apart to diagnose it.
09:39<Eddi|zuHause>Hirundo: does that matter?
09:40<@peter1138>Could even be one of the ribbon cables has a dodgy connection I suppose.
09:40<Hirundo>If it's a feature request, I have a reason not to implement it :-) as it's quite complicated
09:40<@Belugas>looks like you have to test everything then... it does that on all keys?
09:40<@peter1138>Not all.
09:41<@peter1138>But large chunks :S
09:41<@peter1138>Btw, anyone want to buy a MIDI keyboard? Immaculate condition, works perfectly? :p
09:41<Hirundo>Basically, you need to parse the string for all languages that have one or more substrings defined, but you only know which languages have substrings defined after you have parsed the string
09:42<Eddi|zuHause>Hirundo: well let's phrase it this way: it caught me as "unexpected behaviour"
09:42<Hirundo>Would you expect translated bits to appear in an otherwise english string?
09:43<@Belugas>lol @ peter1138
09:44<Eddi|zuHause>well the use case were "language agnostic" composition strings, like "STR_TWO_LINES:{STRING}{}{STRING}"
09:44<@Belugas>i have to admit, repairing my guit seems a bit easier ;)
09:44<Eddi|zuHause>which i have to duplicate for each language, even though it won't ever change
09:44<@Belugas>but granted, there is far less hardware!
09:45<@peter1138>Yeah, they're a lot simpler.
09:45<Eddi|zuHause>or the vehicle names, which are composed from a "universal" part and some "translated" parts
09:48<Hirundo>Eddi|zuHause: I can understand the use case, but I can't think of a reasonable implementation (yet)
09:49<@Belugas>got to say, though, i feel bad for you. So you're going to try to repair it or get a new one?
09:49<Eddi|zuHause>Hirundo: i don't know enough about the internals of nml, but my "strategy" would be to go through all parameters of the string, collect which languages have these parameters defined, and then generating the total string for these languages
09:50<Eddi|zuHause>assuming the parameters are defined before starting to parse the string
09:51<Eddi|zuHause>so you go through the string once to determine the languages, and then once for each language
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09:52<Eddi|zuHause>and then you remember the languages in the symbol table
09:52<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. each string in the symbol table has a set of languages
09:55*Hirundo spots light bulb
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10:05*Belugas brings candles.
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11:01<NGC3982>for normal industries, production seems to halt after 2300 tonnes/year
11:02<NGC3982>i fail to find documentation about it
11:02<NGC3982>is this correct, or am i missing something? ;)
11:03<Hirundo>Eddi|zuHause: Here you go :-)
11:07<@planetmaker>NGC3982: that is approx. correct.
11:08<@planetmaker>the industry can produce 256*8 or 256*9 units per month (depending on month length and timing)
11:08<@planetmaker>@calc 256*8
11:08<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 2048
11:08<NGC3982>planetmaker: i see!
11:08<@planetmaker>primary industries produce every... X ticks
11:09<@planetmaker>ans it fits either 8 or 9 times into a month
11:10<@planetmaker>@calc 72*30
11:10<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 2160
11:11<@planetmaker>@calc 72*30/8
11:11<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 270
11:11<@planetmaker>@calc 72*30/9
11:11<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 240
11:28<Eddi|zuHause>you have an obiwan and an obitwo
11:28<@Alberth>or two obiwans :)
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11:28<@Alberth>but with the same spin direction
11:28<Eddi|zuHause>a doubiwan ;)
11:29<Chrill>Is there something wrong with BaNaNas? I keep trying to upload a Scenario but gets the answer "Unhandled Exception" and this has been ongoing for about two weeks
11:29<Eddi|zuHause>Chrill: more details
11:29<@Alberth>which scenario?
11:30<Chrill>uhm.. for 1.2.X, scenario called Archipielago Hermoso, 512x512 temperate with NewGRFs from bananas only
11:30<@Alberth>TrueBrain: ^^
11:31<TrueBrain>Alberth: ^^
11:32<@Alberth>Chrill: do you want to add a bug to the website or should I?
11:32<Chrill>I'm not sure what the bug really is, to be honest
11:32<Chrill>It could just be my scenario
11:33<Chrill>but I have no alternative scenario to upload for testing
11:33<TrueBrain>at the very basic upload your file there etc
11:33<TrueBrain>like with an OpenTTD crash, basically :)
11:33<@Alberth>the bug is that you cannot upload, I think ;)
11:33<Chrill>fair enough :p
11:33<Chrill>I'll file a report
11:33<@Alberth>ok, thanks
11:34<TrueBrain>for feature reference: BaNaNaS should never give an error; waiting for it won't make it magically go away, so please always file a bug report when you hit one :)
11:34<Chrill>Category: no such thing as a bananas category, I guess Core is fair?
11:34<TrueBrain>often it are corner cases in the files inside the uploaded file
11:35<TrueBrain>there is a Website project
11:35<TrueBrain>I wish FlySpray would show it more clear, but ... what can I say :P
11:35<@Alberth>Chrill: at the top-left, it says "OpenTTD" there are also other projects
11:36<@Alberth>TrueBrain: shall I file a bug? :D
11:36<TrueBrain>FlySpray is kinda dead
11:36<TrueBrain>I am unsure it will help
11:36<TrueBrain>I really should deploy Jira to show it to you guys, but ... ugh .. time etc bladiebla
11:36*Alberth nods
11:36<@Alberth>I was going to file one in the website project about FS being in need of replacement :D
11:39<Chrill>Thanks for the help
11:39<TrueBrain>tnx Chrill
11:39<TrueBrain>will look at it hopefully later tonight
11:39<TrueBrain>but honesty, that depends on how drunk I will get
11:39<Chrill>Hopefully there should be some sort of log in BaNaNaS that will show I tried to upload and failed, no?
11:40<TrueBrain>I just upload it in my test env, and it will tell me all kinds of things I don't want to read :P
11:40<TrueBrain>hmm, you only uploaded the .scn, not packed in any file?
11:41<TrueBrain>owh joy, this will be fun to fix then :D
11:42<Chrill>I only have a scenario to upload, it is what I tried to upload in the first place!
11:43<@Terkhen>I'm using JIRA at work... I don't like it much but since we are using a version from 2008 I guess that I can't judge it :P
11:43<TrueBrain>Terkhen: Jira 5 is much better
11:43<TrueBrain>you can now link to bugs etc :P
11:43<TrueBrain>I wouldn't dare to let any of you work with Jira pre-5
11:43<TrueBrain>it is short to horrible
11:43<@Alberth>thank you TrueBrain :)
11:45<Hirundo>Alberth: <- How do I detect if there are still cyclic imports?
11:45<@Alberth>build an import graph :)
11:46<@Alberth>I can make one if you like
11:46<TrueBrain>Chrill: fun fact: I just uploaded that file just fine ... lolz
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11:46<Hirundo>Is building such a graph complicated/
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11:47<@Alberth>find imports of each file, make a .dot file, strip the non-cyclic stuff, basically
11:47<@Alberth>hi Julio
11:47<+glx>oh we already use one of JIRA's author product
11:47<Julio>i'm new to openTTD
11:48<TrueBrain>glx: we do, yes
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11:48<@Alberth>Julio: ok :)
11:50<@Alberth>Hirundo: alternatively, you can find the imports of each file, put them in some python data structure, and write some code to find the cycle
11:50<@Alberth>Hirundo: fyi: .dot files are from GraphViz, a package to draw 2d pictures of graphs
11:51<TrueBrain>Chrill: hihi, UTF-8 issues .. how lovely :D
11:51<@peter1138>Gah, wtf
11:51<@peter1138>rsyslog set up to alert
11:51<@peter1138>via ommail
11:51<TrueBrain>Xaroth: t = open("filename.txt"); t.write(title); t.close(); <- title is an utf-8 string; why would it fail?
11:52<@peter1138>send test event that matches rule, alert is raised
11:52<@peter1138>real event that matches rule, alert is not raised...
11:53<@Alberth>TrueBrain: python 2 should work, as it does not care about what the string contains
11:53<TrueBrain>Alberth: one would think
11:53<TrueBrain>it fails
11:53<@Alberth>TrueBrain: add "w" for writing?
11:53<TrueBrain>so I guess we both assumped the wrong thing :D
11:53<TrueBrain>it has it :)
11:53<TrueBrain>Alberth: it is nothing that simple, as non-utf8 works :)
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11:54<@Alberth>non-utf8 ?
11:54<@peter1138>open("filename.txt", "w", "utf-8") ?
11:54<Xaroth>import codecs
11:55<@Alberth>peter1138: if the string is already encoded, you don't want to encode it again
11:55<Xaroth>file =, "w", "utf-8")
11:55<@Alberth>unless the title is not utf-8 encoded, but a unicode string instead
11:55<@peter1138>yes but python is stupid about utf-8, iirc
11:56<@Alberth>TrueBrain: what's the error?
11:56<@peter1138>where does title come from?
11:56<@peter1138>if it's from the scenario then if it's not utf-8 then it'll fail in openttd too, right?
11:56<TrueBrain>peter1138 wins a cookie for linking the right website
11:57<TrueBrain>I solvd it by adding: title.encoding("utf-8")
11:57<TrueBrain>now the file contains weird chars
11:57<TrueBrain>I guess that is intended? No clue tbh :P
11:57<@Alberth>right, so it was unicode :)
11:57<@Alberth>or some other encoding :D
11:57<TrueBrain>I hate Python for its utf-8 shit
11:57<TrueBrain>it is just that: shit
11:58<Xaroth>I'm long glad django takes care of a lot of the crap :p
11:58<TrueBrain>Archipi´┐Ż´┐Żlago Hermoso
11:58<Xaroth>saves me from having to get headaches
11:58<TrueBrain>no clue how to validate the UTF string :P
11:58<@Alberth>decode? :)
11:59<@Alberth>u = title.decode('utf-8') :)
11:59<TrueBrain>copy file to public_html
11:59<TrueBrain>open in browser
11:59<TrueBrain>set to utf-8
11:59<TrueBrain>works :)
11:59<TrueBrain>Alberth: I wanted to test it outside Python :P
11:59<TrueBrain>Chrill: fixed; you should be able to upload now
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11:59<@peter1138>so why doesn't my rsyslog work right? :p
12:00<TrueBrain>funny enough, in Chrill's bug report he had a non-utf8 title :P
12:00<TrueBrain>his failed uploads told me he tried utf-8 titles :D
12:00*TrueBrain hugs BaNaNaS for keeping track of these things :)
12:01<TrueBrain>tnx for the help guys :)
12:01<TrueBrain>peter1138: maybe utf8 issues? :P
12:02<@Alberth>thanks for fixing so quickly TrueBrain
12:02<TrueBrain>I have to say, I had the same issue, but I cannot remember what the hell I did to fix it peter1138 :P
12:02<Chrill>I failed :(
12:02<TrueBrain>Alberth: I Wasn't planning to, but my roommates went to get food, so I have 10 whole minutes free! :D
12:02<Chrill>Although I am using UTF-8
12:03<Chrill>ah wel
12:03<Chrill>thank you TrueBrain!
12:03<TrueBrain>Chrill: as long as it works now :D
12:03<Chrill>I shall try tomorrow for I am just about to leave :P
12:03<TrueBrain>its funny that you are the first one trying to use utf-8, or at least: reporting it :D
12:04<Chrill>my coding is, in other words, really messed up
12:04<Chrill>I use both UTF-8 and non-UTF-8 all at once
12:04<Chrill>massive coolness
12:04<@Terkhen>I used in on tags some time ago too
12:05<TrueBrain>Terkhen: we fixed tags months ago; someone used it before you :P
12:05<@Terkhen>but never in names
12:06<@peter1138>only thing i can see different is the real entry comes from an IP instead of a hostname
12:06<@Terkhen>I remember them breaking with the andalusia scenario too
12:06<TrueBrain>peter1138: ah, yes; my issue was that when I tested it, it came from localhost, while the live event came from 'reserved.isp-name'
12:07<TrueBrain>in other words: I filtered it wrong :D
12:07<@peter1138>i'm not filtering on that though
12:07<TrueBrain>we have one box with remote syslog, it had to handle localhost differently, else it came in an infinite loop \o/
12:07<@peter1138>and both the test and real events come from remote system
12:08<@peter1138>yeah :-)
12:08<TrueBrain>remote syslog is fucking epic btw
12:08<@peter1138>it's essential
12:08<TrueBrain>100% sure nobody tempers with data, and centralized place to filter for 'bad' events :)
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12:30<@Terkhen>gah, subsidies are broken again?
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12:54<@Alberth>or he services industries too well :)
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13:29<andythenorth>what did I miss?
13:30<NGC3982>my naked body.
13:30*NGC3982 runs about with his majesty suit on.
13:30<andythenorth>didn't miss that
13:30<Chrill>didnt want to see that? :P
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13:31<@Alberth>hi frosch
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13:40<Hirundo>Alberth: fyi - I wrote a script that managed to find exactly 1 cyclic dependency which is now fixed, see also
13:41<@Alberth>evenink Wolf01
13:42<@Alberth>Hirundo: nice :)
13:43<@Alberth>Hirundo: you're the dev here, so if you consider it sufficient, fine by me :) (I'll ask for a re-open of the task if I find a new one ;) )
13:44<@Alberth>but it's very good that you managed to eliminate all, having them is a sign that the code structure is not good
13:44<@Terkhen>hi frosch123 and Wolf01
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14:35*andythenorth proposes an adventure with Pyramid
14:36<andythenorth>would anybody like to play?
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14:37<@Alberth>time estimate?
14:38<andythenorth>I want to ship an app with BANDIT / FISH that can generate the config file from the browser
14:39<@Alberth>how would that work?
14:39<@Alberth>it generates a number that you enter in the config?
14:40<andythenorth>similar to
14:40<andythenorth>which has an edit view you can't access :P
14:40<andythenorth>due to this running on one of our production webservers :P
14:40<andythenorth>but I can :)
14:41<@Alberth>so I can set the intro date?
14:41<andythenorth>you could do it in the config file just as easily
14:41<@Alberth>and then?
14:41<andythenorth>but this allows me to render it to other things trivially, e.g. table view, documentation etc
14:41<andythenorth>and then
14:42<andythenorth>(page source is better formatted)
14:42<andythenorth>^^ that file is curled by my build script to build FISH
14:43<andythenorth>it's moderately insane
14:43<andythenorth>but I like it
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14:43<andythenorth>it's silly because there would be python classes for vehicles in the web app
14:44<@Alberth>yeah, it is somewhat overkill-ish
14:44<andythenorth>these are then rendered to a config file
14:44<andythenorth>then rebuilt to python classes :P
14:44<@Alberth>make a "generate GRF" button :p
14:44<andythenorth>It's overkill, but I just find a web cms easier to use than a spreadsheet
14:45<andythenorth>the actual valid case is to have websites for my grfs
14:45<andythenorth>running on the coop server probably
14:45<andythenorth>in a way other people could understand and maintain
14:45<andythenorth>if I leave / get hit by a bus
14:45<andythenorth>currently the website is on one of our production boxes, totally unsupported and may die at any moment
14:45*Alberth hopes that won't happen any time soon
14:46<@Alberth>(leaving, I mean)
14:46<andythenorth>probly not
14:46<andythenorth>unless I really start sulking about ship smoke
14:46<andythenorth>or I start playing Dwarf Fortress
14:46<andythenorth>or Minecrack
14:47<andythenorth>although the low level of conversation here, and lack of interesting forum threads does make me stay away more :P
14:47<@Alberth>drawn to the dark side you are
14:48<andythenorth>minecrack :P
14:48<andythenorth>I actually need to learn pyramid to port a work app to it
14:48<andythenorth>making a newgrf configurator seemed a simple project to get started
14:48<@Alberth>oh, it's work gor you :)
14:50<@Alberth>ok, I'm completely clueless about web-thingies, but I'll play, right after I got myself some tea :)
14:52*andythenorth should learn about virtual env
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15:02*andythenorth enters the usual world of python setup rage
15:07<andythenorth>what's really nice about setting up python is that the docs lie
15:07<andythenorth>that helps a lot
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15:13<andythenorth>screw virtualenv
15:13<andythenorth>it's broken :P
15:15<@Alberth> <-- uses virtualenv
15:16<andythenorth>I can't teach my OS to see virtualenv as a package
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15:16<andythenorth>easy_install installs it, but I can't run it
15:16<andythenorth>I've installed pyramid to my site packages for now
15:17*andythenorth does the SQL lite tutorial
15:18<Supercheese>Hmm, tweaking road vehicle offsets so they look good (that is, stay in their lanes and don't "jerk" around corners) means the sprites lie quite a bit outside the bounding boxes. Is this ok?
15:19<andythenorth>it will probably go wrong
15:19<andythenorth>if it looks right in game, it's possibly right
15:19<andythenorth>but if you do articulated vehicles, or switch the drive side, it may suck
15:19<Supercheese>Hmm, well nothing is articulated, but I haven't tested tunnels, maybe there's clipping there
15:20<Supercheese>brb testing
15:20<andythenorth>row-based storage should be fine for this config stuff
15:20<andythenorth>although....then the build script could connect directly to sql lite, skipping the config file step
15:20<andythenorth>and if I used ZODB, I could just store the classes there :o
15:21<Supercheese>Yeah, there's some clipping, dangit
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15:25<@Alberth>sql seems scary enough for now :)
15:27<andythenorth>tempted to blitz my python 2.6 and start again
15:27<andythenorth>although I've done that so many times :(
15:27<Supercheese>Guess sticking closer to the bounding boxes is worth it
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15:30<@Alberth>it feels very Twisted-ish :)
15:31<@Belugas>Twisted Sisters
15:31<@Belugas>hoho... memories
15:32<@Alberth>Actually from :)
15:33<CornishPasty>Is there a Twisted for Ruby? Since I hate python :/
15:33<andythenorth>how silly
15:33<andythenorth>hating languages :)
15:34<CornishPasty>Well, I don't hate it per se, I just dislike its syntax
15:34<andythenorth>you should hate it's setup tools instead :P
15:34<andythenorth>'the state of python packaging' :P
15:34<CornishPasty>Gems <3
15:35<andythenorth>I tried the node.js package manager to install the less compiler
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15:36<CornishPasty>It's the same with Ruby
15:36<CornishPasty>gem install <package> # done
15:36<andythenorth>follow instructions, get working code
15:36*andythenorth likes that
15:36<@Alberth>use a sane OS package manager instead :)
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>syntax is irrelevant
15:36<andythenorth>Alberth: I'd have to switch to a better OS :P
15:37<@Alberth>and that's not a worthwhile investment? :p
15:37<andythenorth>I like OS X
15:38<andythenorth>apart from the shocking state of packages
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>Apple should be a teaching example for stockholm syndrome
15:38<andythenorth>but python packaging is a screaming mess no matter which OS you have
15:38<andythenorth>this is not a new assertion :)
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15:40<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: the point that Apple understood very well is that most users have simple computing needs
15:40<andythenorth>mine are simple
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15:41<@Alberth>mine are not :p
15:41<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: the problem for civilization is that people grow with the demands put at them. so if you don't demand anything from people, civilization degrades
15:41*andythenorth finds the Joel quote of a quote
15:42<andythenorth>or not
15:43<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: and being good with computers is good for a civilization? I somewhat doubt that for the general population
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15:53*andythenorth votes for sleeping time
15:53<andythenorth>Alberth: I'm going to do more pyramid tutorial tomorrow
15:53<@Alberth>ok, good night
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16:42<@Alberth>you didn't believe me yesterday?
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16:58<@Terkhen>good night
16:58<Wolf01>'night Terkhen
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17:26<NGC3982>im trying to find the shortest possible formula to create a (as good as) random two digit number.
17:27<NGC3982>with certain flamboyance, that is.
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17:29<NGC3982>like, the current (two digit) local temperature, divided by the current julian date, then selecting the first last two known decimals.
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17:32<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: maybe you have a misunderstanding what "random" means
17:44<Supercheese>Hmm, maybe retrieve and then run a search for the first two numbers? I very much doubt you'd encounter a page that has no numbers at all, especially since there's the "This page was last modified on ___" part at the bottom.
17:45<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: random is relative, and for my purpose, the number will be random (and utter unscientific).
17:45<Supercheese>Likely would lead to a preponderance of "19" due to the frequence of the years 1900-1999
17:45<NGC3982>Supercheese: true.
17:46<NGC3982>Supercheese: well, all i need to do is multiply with a known number thats always changing.
17:46<NGC3982>Supercheese: where time is perfect.
17:46<Supercheese>Making use of Wikipedia's random article feature in an algorithm just struck me as neat ;)
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: "random" and "always different" are contradicting
17:47<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: what are you trying to achieve?
17:47<NGC3982>Supercheese: yes, indeed. its also easy for me to parse. :P
17:47<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: the sequence "3,2,5,5,5,5,8" is totally random
17:47<Eddi|zuHause>but 5 is repeated often
17:48<Eddi|zuHause>artificially trying to have no repetition of the 5 in there makes it LESS random
17:48<NGC3982>yes, that is true.
17:48<NGC3982>but natural repetition doesnt break my experiment.
17:49<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: if you want to have random numbers, use the rand() function
17:49<NGC3982>that's a c++ command, right?
17:50<Eddi|zuHause>it's (with minor differences) a command in pretty much any language
17:50<NGC3982>i see
17:50<Eddi|zuHause>occasionally it takes a parameter, i.e "rand(100)" for a number between 0 and 99
17:50<NGC3982>how does it make the number?
17:51<Eddi|zuHause>that depends on the language, the library, the os, ...
17:52<NGC3982>ah, i see.
17:52<NGC3982>the thing is, there is a reason for me wanting natural (pseudo-unrelated numbers) parameters to my function.
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>the usual differences are between balancing speed and "randomness" [i.e. corellation effects, predictability, ...]
17:53<Eddi|zuHause>nobody _ever_ considered "length of the formula" a serious issue...
17:53<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: e.g. on linux the kernel provides two random number generators: /dev/random and /dev/urandom. the first one is "more random" and the second one is "fast"
17:57<NGC3982>"In this implementation, the generator keeps an estimate of the number of bits of noise in the entropy pool."
17:57<NGC3982>that's perfect!
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17:59<NGC3982>in it's reference frame and my experiment, /dev/random should thus be as random as anything can be
17:59<NGC3982>since it's purely unguessable, even if the guniea pig knows the rules of the number creation.
18:00*NGC3982 makes a note to thank Eddi while receiving the nobel price.
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18:08<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: no computer generated number can ever be "completely random"
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18:22<NGC3982>in reference, sure it can.
18:22<NGC3982>and not using it is semantics.
18:23<NGC3982>ill use /dev/random, by the way. thank you and good night.
18:24<waterfoul>anyone willing to help me fix a compile problem?
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>waterfoul: you have an awful talent to come always when everybody is asleep
18:27<Eddi|zuHause>waterfoul: and you haven't told us what version you try to compile and where and how you got it from
18:29<waterfoul>I am trying to get a patch working and the oroginal code is from trunk
18:30<Eddi|zuHause>right, then your patch is probably very old
18:31<waterfoul>I figured, I was trying to get it to work and have fixed most of the problems
18:31<waterfoul>its the IS2 patch
18:32<Eddi|zuHause>waterfoul: the format for settings was changed fundamentally around r22172. settings.h is now autogenerated from settings.ini, so all changes to that file must be ported to the new format
18:32<waterfoul>how do I regenerate it?
18:33<Eddi|zuHause>waterfoul: the makefile does that automatically, if you change settings.ini
18:33<waterfoul>/src/table/settings.ini correct?
18:35<waterfoul>is there docs for how this file works?
18:35<Eddi|zuHause>waterfoul: it's really rather straightforward
18:36<waterfoul>looks simple enough but I don't wabnt to go monkeying without knowing how it works... (for example how do I add an include)
18:36<Eddi|zuHause>waterfoul: in the old patch for settings.h you have some entries like STD_VAR(x,y,z,...), and in the beginning of settings.ini you have the #define STD_VAR(X,Y,Z,...), so in the [VAR] section you put X=x Y=y Z=z ...
18:38<waterfoul>oh... that's why I was confused.... I was looking at the patch for settings.cpp DOH!
18:38<Eddi|zuHause>that's gonna be difficult then :p
18:39<Eddi|zuHause>the only thing you really will need to change is the min_version for the settings you introduce
18:40<Eddi|zuHause>you increase SAVEGAME_VERSION in the .cpp file by one, and put that number as the new min_version
18:40<Eddi|zuHause>otherwise you will get trouble loading savegames made by current trunk
18:42<waterfoul>I don't see SAVEGAME_VERSION in settings.cpp
18:43<Eddi|zuHause>yes, it's in saveload.cpp
18:44<waterfoul>can I leave off strhelp?
18:45<Eddi|zuHause>if you leave out a setting it should put in the default value
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18:45<Eddi|zuHause>if in doubt, put STR_EMPTY or so, but it would be better style to actually add the right strings :)
18:45<waterfoul>ok, they used SDT_CONDBOOL but I can't find the name for the last parameter
18:45<waterfoul>what is it?
18:46<Eddi|zuHause>waterfoul: you have an example?
18:47<waterfoul>SDT_CONDBOOL(GameSettings, economy.infrastructure_sharing[0], 143, SL_MAX_VERSION, 0, 0, false, STR_CONFIG_SETTING_SHARING_RAIL, CheckSharingRail)
18:47<waterfoul>sofar I have [SDT_BOOL]
18:47<waterfoul>base = GameSettings
18:47<waterfoul>var = economy.infrastructure_sharing[0]
18:47<waterfoul>from = 176
18:47<waterfoul>def = false
18:47<waterfoul>how do I add the CheckSharingRail
18:48<Eddi|zuHause>ah, yes, that is a function that checks the validity of the setting on changing
18:48<Eddi|zuHause>should be "proc"
18:49<waterfoul>oh... I just found a newer patch in the forums
18:49<waterfoul>looks like someone has already done it.... fail
18:50<waterfoul>its for r24114
18:50<Eddi|zuHause>they could have done garbage :)
18:50<Eddi|zuHause>don't blindly trust stuff other people have done :)
18:51<waterfoul>i fugured but there seems to be multiple testers of the new patch so I'll give it a shot, i'll make sure I hackup my work first though
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18:56<waterfoul>looks like they did do the settings ini right though
19:02<waterfoul>I can;t remember... how do you enable debvugging symbols? it segfasults and I want to try to fix it
19:03<waterfoul>found it, --enable-debug=3
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22:57<Billybobjoepants>): no one here
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---Logclosed Thu Jul 12 00:00:06 2012