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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-07-12

---Logopened Thu Jul 12 00:00:06 2012
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01:44<@Terkhen>good morning
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03:23<dihedral>good morning
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03:36<dihedral>hello Alberth
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04:32<arnold>hallo freunde. unser server läuft im web auf nen linux. wir versuchen hier seit ner stunde die mapsize zu ändern mit google & co. der will duie einfach nicht erhöhen von 256 auf 1024
04:32<arnold>hat jemand iene idee ? kann doch nicht so tricky sein :/
04:33<@Alberth>when you speak English, more people will understand what you say :)
04:34<arnold>hi :) i cant change the mapsize from 256 to 1024. linux webserver. we edit the openttd.cfg for example map_x = 10 .... but when we restart, the server will create a 256map :/
04:35<@Alberth>openttd writes the config on exit
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04:35<arnold>how can i setup a server (newgame) with a mapsize like 1024 (=10)
04:35<@Alberth>so editing while the server runs is a little useless :)
04:36<@Alberth>hi cra
04:36<arnold>i can use the command window .. ~ ?! right?
04:36<@Alberth>arnold: first shutdown the openttd program before you edit the config file
04:37<arnold>i will test ... :)
04:38<@Alberth>arnold: the usual way of doing things is to prepare a config file at a normal desktop game, that works much better than editing the file directly
04:38<arnold>omg ... :D its work. my buddy has nerver stop the server. only edit, then restart :D
04:38<arnold>now it works , thx :* ^^
04:39<@Alberth>that's what happens if you stop openttd from overwriting your careful edits :D
04:39<arnold>thx my friend :)
04:40<@Alberth>yw :)
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04:41<@Alberth>bye cra
04:44<arnold>ehy alberth, next one :)
04:45<arnold>which configtext ist for the numbers of town. because, our new 1024map has a less number aof towns ^^
04:45<arnold>an industrie
04:46<@Alberth>no idea, I am sure you can find it if you want, but instead make a good config file at a desktop game, and then copy the config file to the server
04:46<@Alberth>that's way easier
04:46<arnold>aaaah, ok :) thx
04:47<arnold>now i must play. our boss is away .. big ttd officeparty :D
04:47<arnold>bye :)
04:47<@Alberth>bye :)
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05:40<@peter1138>When my boss is away they just piss of home early instead.
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06:10<NGC3982>i cant stand business offices that cant keep control on employees.
06:11*Sacro sits on IRC at work
06:11*NGC3982 puts lots of time on keeping his employees occupied enough never have a reason to go home early.
06:12*NGC3982 also needs to look at what he is writing before sending it, apparently.
06:12*Warod believes the work must be interesting enough to keep people doing it!
06:12<NGC3982>yes, of course.
06:13<NGC3982>though, i fail to understand how a business can be profiting at all with systems that allow people to simply walk home unnoticed.
06:13<NGC3982>it seems to say a fair bit about the effectiveness, at least.
06:15<@planetmaker>quite right comment, Alberth
06:15<@planetmaker>(on NML)
06:15<@planetmaker>actually in all aspects :-P Including "too alien" ;-)
06:16<Warod>NGC3982: Hmm? Stuff gets done so what's the problem? :P
06:16<NGC3982>Warod: if 40% effective work gives fair profit, 80% should do more.
06:17<@Alberth>planetmaker: :)
06:17<NGC3982>Warod: dont you think? :)
06:17<Warod>NGC3982: It's summer... do you think I get myself to the office? Haven't been at the office even once after my summer vacation ended nearly two weeks ago. :P
06:17<@Alberth>planetmaker: the hard part is however the "some macro expansion system" :)
06:17<NGC3982>Warod: then i guess you have the privilegde to control your profit without presence.
06:17<@planetmaker>Alberth, you may (or may not) have noticed, that xotic made an m4nml system?
06:18<NGC3982>Warod: and that is of course not the case in normal work > employee situations.
06:18<@Alberth>I did not, how nice
06:18<@planetmaker>yes... I'd have much more appreciation for it though, if he'd talk to me before re-writing newgrfs I'm part in, though :S
06:18<Warod>NGC3982: I do most of the profitable deals and handle the difficult cases. :P
06:18<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: fyi; the /dev/random function worked out nicely, and fitted my experiment perfectly.
06:19<@planetmaker>and could at least feel like doing more than "accept or reject" the whole re-write
06:19<@planetmaker>thus I haven't quite replied to it at all so far... not good either
06:20<@Alberth>I fully agree, changing stuff without asking others is not good
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06:20<@planetmaker>it's not committed to the "official" repo. But still... lots of time gone into it
06:20<Warod>NGC3982: Also.. I tend to be where I need to be. And office is hardly ever one of those places. ^^
06:21<@Alberth>say you have some trouble with the direction it is going?
06:21<@planetmaker>tbh, I've no clue really *which* he likes to take it. Thus I've more a problem of seeing any direction really... I see mostly a problem in communication
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06:22<@Alberth>sounds like it yeah
06:22<@Alberth>hi Pixa
06:23<@planetmaker>and sadly I'm annoyed by it. Which makes me... not a nice person to communicate with then. Thus I remained silent so far. In order to not needlessly insult
06:23<@Alberth>a cautious PM asking for what direction it is going?
06:24<@planetmaker>yeah, I should do that
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06:44<@peter1138>Warod, exactly, they can do all the work from home.
06:45<@Alberth>who needs a HQ anyway :D
06:45<Eddi|zuHause>i tend to not get anything done at home...
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06:54<Hirundo>Alberth: Interesting thoughts (
06:55<@Alberth>yeah, it makes it more complicated though, unfortunately
06:55<Hirundo>I'm not sure if NML needs a full (token-level) macro processor
06:55<@Alberth>why not?
06:56*planetmaker assigns task to Alberth ;-)
06:56<NGC3982>Warod: well, i guess you are a supervisor?
06:56<@planetmaker>when will it be done? :-P
06:56<Hirundo>Those already exist as cpp, m4, etc. rewriting them would be pointless
06:56<Hirundo>I'm more thinking along the lines of parametrized 'item templates', like real sprite templates
06:57<@Alberth>'cat' also already exists, yet you made an issue for including files :)
06:57<@planetmaker>that most likely hits home most cases, Hirundo
06:57<Warod>NGC3982: Not really, no.
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06:58<@Alberth>Yeah, I left open what kind of macro expansion you want; cpp is very general purpose and low-level, probably due to hysteric reasons
06:59<Hirundo>basically you'd want the equivalent of C++ templates instead of C macros
06:59*Alberth nods
07:00<@Alberth>template SOMENAME(PARAMS) { <aribtrary nml defs> } ?
07:00<@Alberth>and SOMENAME(1); SOMENAME(2); etc
07:01<@planetmaker>would be nice, if one could then also template switches with this means
07:01<@Alberth>just pick the non-terminal to be used between the curly brackets :) )
07:02<@planetmaker>which would imply that something like the cpp directive part1 ## part2 exists
07:03<@Alberth>why do you need that?
07:03<Hirundo>IMO switches suck in general, they are very inconvenient for general programming work
07:03<@Alberth>(assuming names in a template are local)
07:03<@planetmaker>switches for different vehicles need different names in NML
07:05<@Alberth>planetmaker: ie do you need those names from outside the template?
07:05<Hirundo>I have been thinking about namespaces to solve those naming issues
07:05<@planetmaker>well. The template must expand to different switch names when being used, Alberth
07:05*Alberth nods
07:05<@Alberth>a local name means it is unique
07:06<@planetmaker>a local naming scheme would make this probably (much) easier
07:06<@Alberth>and only exists within the template instance
07:06<@planetmaker>thus you define a name space per vehicle. And then you can re-use the same template over and over
07:06<@Alberth>that would be one case yes
07:07<@Alberth>it is like { int x; { int y; } /* y is not known here */ { int y; /* this is a different y */ } } in c++
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07:08<@Alberth>obviously this fails if you need y outside the innermost brackets :)
07:11<@planetmaker>yes. Any possibility to export it?
07:11<Hirundo>namespace::y (if the namespace is named)
07:12<@Alberth>that's to be decided, I'd prefer it as return value or as incoming name through the parameter list
07:12<@Alberth>the latter is easier, probably
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10:11<dihedral>hello Belugas
10:12<@Belugas>sir dihedral :)
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11:09*FLHerne fails to install NML
11:10<FLHerne>alien doesn't like the rpm :-(
11:13<FLHerne>Ah, well, I'll have to compile it :-(
11:14<@Terkhen>hg clone the repo and symlink nmlc to /usr/bin/
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11:18<FLHerne>Never used hg :p
11:19<@Terkhen>I assume that you can do the same with tarballs/binaries
11:19<FLHerne>Used , neither method works :P
11:20<@Terkhen>not that hg is complicated to use
11:21<FLHerne>Well, I'll learn to use it when I have to :P . They've got tar.gz archives, and I know how to use those already...
11:23<FLHerne>Installed it following the instructions, and now I get lots of python error messages :-(
11:24<@Terkhen>without knowing the errors we cant help you :P
11:24<@Terkhen>but you are probably missing pil and ply
11:26*FLHerne goes to look up package namel for them
11:26<FLHerne>Perhaps it should mention dependencies on the installation instructions?
11:27<FLHerne>Hah, it does but I missed them :P
11:27*FLHerne needs to read these things more carefully :-(
11:27<@Terkhen>IIRC it is mentioned, yes :)
11:29<FLHerne>Works now, sorry to bother you
11:29*FLHerne wonders if there's a sequence of puctuation for 'embarrassed face' :P
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12:13<frosch123>hello kids
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12:19<Way>hello :)
12:20<Way>why i dont see all signs in list?
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13:19<@Terkhen>andythenorth: where in spain is that? :P
13:20<__ln__>Terkhen: there's a map
13:20<@Terkhen>ooh, I see
13:20<__ln__>i was going to ask which newgrf is that
13:23<frosch123>we removed it from bananas because we don't like realism
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13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: translators * r24396 /trunk/src/lang/ (czech.txt latvian.txt polish.txt):
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: czech - 14 changes by Eskymak
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: latvian - 3 changes by Parastais
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: polish - 3 changes by wojteks86
13:50<andythenorth>what shall we talk nonsense about?
13:52<FLHerne>andythenorth: I'm trying to code your CHIPS tiles as NewObjects now :P
13:53<andythenorth>have fun :)
13:53<andythenorth>they won't accept cargo :P
13:54<FLHerne>I know
13:54<Supercheese>Making them overlap roads like the ISR NewObjects set?
13:54<andythenorth>that's such a hack :P
13:54<FLHerne>But they will be able to be built on more slope types :-)
13:54<andythenorth>clever, but monstrous
13:54<FLHerne>If I can figure out this NML gibberish, anyway :P
13:54<Supercheese>agreed, sort of like Push/Pull trains
13:56<andythenorth>FLHerne: you just copy one of the existing nml objects grfs?
13:56<andythenorth>probably one on devzone
13:56<FLHerne>But then I wouldn't learn :D
13:56<frosch123>[19:50] <andythenorth> what shall we talk nonsense about? <- how about deprecating non-track station tiles, and adding a flag to object definitions whether they shall be offered in objects-, stations-, bus-, airport-,... gui? :p
13:56*FLHerne tries to be productive for once :D
13:56<andythenorth>frosch123: would we mind sanitising the spec too?
13:57<andythenorth>maybe by copying objects or something?
13:57<andythenorth>[is objects sane?]
13:57<frosch123>no :p
13:57<andythenorth>would these objects be allowed to accept cargo?
13:57<andythenorth>can we reimplement everything as subclass of object :P
13:57<andythenorth>and give them cbs to accept / produce cargo too
13:57<frosch123>maybe they should be allowed to construct vehicles and send them onto your tracks
13:58<andythenorth>and state machines for routing vehicles
13:58<andythenorth>one way to rule them all :P
13:58<andythenorth>'everything is an object'
13:59<frosch123>we should propose that to p1sim
13:59<andythenorth>actually we might use that as a bonkers way to do openttd 2.0
13:59<andythenorth>I think we should do something silly
13:59<andythenorth>fuck all this realism stuff :P
13:59<andythenorth>oops andythenorth got sweary
13:59<andythenorth>it's been a long 2 years and 5 months :P
14:00<frosch123>real hoover buses?
14:00<andythenorth>yes, hoover buses that suck things up
14:00<frosch123>we can unify rv and aircraft by adding an hoover height property to rv
14:00<andythenorth>unify ships too
14:01<andythenorth>that's fine
14:01<andythenorth>everything is just 'vehicle'
14:01<frosch123>submarines are just a negative hoover height
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14:01<andythenorth>then my 'vehicles' python framework for newgrf starts looking like the game :P
14:01<FLHerne>Road-rail vehicles?
14:01<andythenorth>don't be silly :)
14:01<andythenorth>how could that ever work :)
14:01<FLHerne>How about flying cars, those would need variable hoover height...?
14:02<andythenorth>just offset the graphics :P
14:02<frosch123>roadtypes are just a type of railtypes
14:02*andythenorth ponders that idea
14:02<andythenorth>frosch123: no.
14:02<andythenorth>type of routetype
14:02<frosch123>that would also unify trams and rails
14:02<FLHerne>and canals too? :P
14:02<frosch123>including tracks which can both run trams and real trains
14:02<andythenorth>but route is just a question of state machine on the object
14:02<andythenorth>every tile = state machine, with programmable logic
14:02<frosch123>you just need some flag which tells whether two tracktrypes can run in the same direction or cross only
14:03<andythenorth>then we beat minecraft
14:03<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause will love it
14:03<andythenorth>he may actually wet himself
14:03<andythenorth>maybe we can reimplement it from scratch
14:03<andythenorth>but we sack graphics, just use ascii
14:03<frosch123>then you could just define that maglev crossing on normal rail need crossing gates
14:03<FLHerne>frosch123: Surely for combined train/tram you'd need variable tram sprite offsets?
14:03<andythenorth>maybe we just use unicode actually
14:04<andythenorth>more chars :P
14:04<andythenorth>and it's 2d only
14:04<FLHerne>Rails are down the middle, tramtracks are off to the side
14:04<frosch123>andythenorth: just braille characters
14:04<andythenorth>I don't have a braille display :(
14:04<andythenorth>which is sad
14:04<andythenorth>we could get 3D printers
14:04<andythenorth>then you print out each tick in braille
14:05<frosch123>wrote that years ago
14:05<frosch123>but i cannot control the skipping between the lines
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14:05<andythenorth>if we make the game printed, we can relax about optimisation
14:06<andythenorth>as each tick will take a while :P
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14:06<andythenorth>also my idea for cargo flows 'downhill' is literally implementable
14:06<FLHerne>Have it lasercut onto sheets of perspex
14:06<frosch123>multiplayer would use mail? or would it also allow email?
14:06<FLHerne>Then you could stack them to watch movement
14:06<andythenorth>why not just fully networked?
14:07<andythenorth>you both print same
14:07<andythenorth>I don't think we need to over-complicate this
14:07<andythenorth>keep it simple I say
14:07<andythenorth>keep the current networking stack, seems to work ok
14:07<andythenorth>no more latency issues either
14:07<Supercheese>Client timeout: out of toner
14:08<andythenorth>we could keep most of newgrf
14:08<frosch123>but we need some kind of cheating protection
14:08<frosch123>people should not be allowed to draw stuff by hand
14:09<Supercheese>Well, it's hard to draw in toner, surely that has a different composition than ink
14:09<andythenorth>actually I'm completely baffled what the input mechanism would be for players
14:09<andythenorth>we have output, but where's the interface :o
14:09<Supercheese>voice commands
14:09<andythenorth>punched cards might work
14:10<frosch123>yeah turn ottd into a card game
14:10<frosch123>that also makes it suitable for offices
14:10<andythenorth>we'd solve the OS X bugs as well
14:10<andythenorth>or rather, we'd be platform independent
14:11<frosch123>platform independent?
14:11<andythenorth>well you'd need a table I guess
14:11<frosch123>not sure, it might need a solid desk for massive networks
14:11<Supercheese>dammit, was just gonna say ya need a table
14:11<Supercheese>Hmm, you could make the cards magnetic
14:11<Supercheese>any metal surface would do
14:12<andythenorth>but anyway
14:12<andythenorth>'everything is object' ?
14:12<frosch123>or vehicle
14:12<andythenorth>then I can recode all my grfs again
14:12<frosch123>i don't know how to add a superclass to object and vehicle
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14:13<frosch123>track might be a third class
14:13<frosch123>and empty void
14:13<andythenorth>consider a fish processing ship?
14:13<andythenorth>object or vehicle?
14:13<andythenorth>station is a capability, not a class
14:13<andythenorth>perhaps everything is just an object
14:13<andythenorth>and objects can route objects
14:14<frosch123>andythenorth: you mean a ship mining iron, precessing it into more ships of the same type?
14:14<andythenorth>why not indeed
14:14<andythenorth>cargo is an object?
14:14<Supercheese>By the year 3,000, everything is just nanomachines making more nanomachines
14:14<frosch123>vehicles should be cargo
14:14<frosch123>but a ship can also carry a nuclear power plant
14:14<andythenorth>objects: can create, route, destroy other objects
14:14<frosch123>so, any "thing" can be a cargo
14:15<frosch123>Supercheese: yeah, overpopulation is solved my making people smaller
14:17<andythenorth>in Soviet Russia, entire factories were moved by rail
14:17<andythenorth>not whilst producing tanks though :P
14:18<frosch123>russia also has mobile nuclear powerplants in ships, in case you need a lot of power in some random place
14:18<frosch123>it also solves the cooling issue nicely
14:18<Supercheese>Error: Found opening token "In Soviet Russia", expected ending token "YOU!" not found
14:20<andythenorth>frosch123: we need a newgrf spec for this :P
14:20<andythenorth>cb 27D: can cargo be loaded into cargo?
14:21<andythenorth>cb 39A: can cargo be routed?
14:21<frosch123>cb 666: is cargo human player?
14:22<Supercheese>cb1.21: is object capable of time travel?
14:24<frosch123>active or passive?
14:24<frosch123>does it travel itself, or does it travel other stuff only?
14:24<FLHerne>cb [insert no here]: Is object retroactively built at start of game when constructed?
14:24<andythenorth>FLHerne: the number will be filled in later
14:24<andythenorth>by future developers
14:25<andythenorth>actually we should add this to openttd
14:25<andythenorth>changelog would say
14:25<frosch123>oh wait, it's already there
14:25<andythenorth>Feature: to be added by future developer
14:25<frosch123>looks like it has been there since r1
14:25<andythenorth>frosch123: it was probably there before that
14:25<andythenorth>just nobody noticed
14:25<andythenorth>does a feature exist if no-one is checking for it?
14:26<frosch123>obviously the old svn crash was initiated by devs from the future to hide their actions
14:26<FLHerne>Actually, all construction tools should have a retroactive option
14:26<FLHerne>I keep wishing I'd built/modified something earlier
14:27<FLHerne>It needs a setting for how long ago to build it, too :P
14:27<frosch123>it just needs to be there before you look at it
14:32*andythenorth will be back earlier
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14:33<frosch123>oh shit... he caught himself in a loop
14:34<frosch123>farewell andy
14:41*Supercheese is designing a webpage.
14:42<Supercheese>Have the border padded by 0, 1, or 2px? Hmmm
14:42-!-andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
14:42*Supercheese is going to be dreaming in CSS tonight.
14:43<Supercheese> margin:0;
14:43<Supercheese> padding:0 10px 0 20px;
14:43<Supercheese> position:relative;
14:44<frosch123>why px?
14:44<frosch123>why not em?
14:44<Supercheese>Hm, either my eyesight is failing or in Times New Roman a 0 and two parenthesis () look the same from a distance
14:45<frosch123>don't bother
14:45<frosch123>i just noticed myself how old i am
14:45<frosch123>10 years and 11 days ago i started my military service
14:46<frosch123>that means i somehow missed 10 years schools-out
14:47<Supercheese>Oh, and because padding a border by 1em is way too much padding
14:47<Supercheese>That particular line was just taken at random
14:47<frosch123>then use 0.1 em
14:48<andythenorth>don't restart the px / em debate :P
14:48<andythenorth>px had finally won
14:48<andythenorth>then it got unpicked
14:48<andythenorth>now we have retina to consider
14:48<andythenorth>and all kinds of other crap
14:49<FLHerne>andythenorth: Your concrete tile looks nice as an object :D
14:49<Supercheese>I've had retinae for quite a while... ;)
14:49*FLHerne made something that sort-of worked for once :P
14:51*andythenorth is still griping about the game
14:51<andythenorth>everything I thought I wanted - roadtypes, multistop docks, newstations etc
14:51<andythenorth>I think I don't
14:52<andythenorth>everything is just more and more smooth and less and less interesting
14:52<FLHerne>From which POV?
14:52<andythenorth>games need facets and edges and problems
14:52*frosch123 plays some alley cat
14:52*andythenorth googles
14:53<andythenorth>needs an OS X port :P
14:53<Supercheese>Hmmm, prescale the image, or let the CSS do the scaling?
14:53<FLHerne>Really? They need limitations, but not artificial and pointless ones...
14:53<andythenorth>oh a broom :)
14:54<andythenorth>we're doing it all wrong
14:55<FLHerne>90-degree-only roads are an annoyance, not an interesting restriction:-(
14:55*andythenorth waits for a java version of alley cat to finish crashing Safari :P
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14:55<frosch123>it only runs in dosbox anyway
14:56<Rubidium>andythenorth: which OS X does it need to be ported to?
14:57<andythenorth>not yours :P
14:59<andythenorth>game timespan is too long
14:59<andythenorth>maps are too big
14:59<andythenorth>newgrfs are too big
15:00<andythenorth>and if I wanted a model train set, I'd get one
15:00<andythenorth>newgrf is win, PBS is win, GS is probably win
15:01<andythenorth>and andythenorth is talking to self again :P
15:01<andythenorth>time for beer
15:01<andythenorth>I think BANDIT is probably going to suck btw
15:01<andythenorth>every time I look at it, I wonder what the point is
15:01<Supercheese>Sorry, no BEER, you forgot to put it in the cargotable
15:01<andythenorth>I disagree ;)
15:01<andythenorth>all trucks look about the same
15:02<andythenorth>but every few years they just get a bit faster
15:02<andythenorth>so then you have to autoreplace them all
15:02<andythenorth>I might as well just code them to 'get a bit faster' every few years
15:02<andythenorth>and give them 255 year lifespans
15:02<Supercheese>Surely their running costs also change over the years
15:02<frosch123>andythenorth: play a game with nuts
15:02-!-Alberth [~hat3@2001:980:272e:1:21a:92ff:fe55:fc8d] has joined #openttd
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15:03<andythenorth>good point
15:03<andythenorth>also, spanish beer or french?
15:03<frosch123>nuts has some special aspects
15:03<@Terkhen>neither? :P
15:03<frosch123>esp. the way it deals with short vehicles, it makes all other sets look stupid
15:04<frosch123>it's all about identifying mis-features and turning them into something better
15:05*andythenorth tries nuts
15:08*andythenorth considers playing new canset release
15:10<andythenorth>frosch123: what was the misfeature in the case above? :)
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15:15<frosch123>generations of wagons with different lengths
15:15<frosch123>which make autoreplace a pain
15:15<frosch123>not in nuts
15:17<andythenorth>autoreplace is a misfeature
15:17<andythenorth>real men replace their own toy trains
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15:18<pasky>Hi! I have a bank with cargo station and a train station nearby; I want to use trucks to bring valuables from train station to bank and back, however this doesn't seem to work since the trucks will happily load back the valuables they just unloaded for transfer; is this scenario supposed to work with current codebase? what's the trick?
15:18<FLHerne>andythenorth/frosch123: did you see the template-replacement patch on the forums?
15:18<andythenorth>consists and crap?
15:18<frosch123>pasky: use two stations
15:18<andythenorth>meh :)
15:19<frosch123>order vehicle to unload only or load only
15:19<pasky>frosch123: hmm, i don't think that would work either, but i'll check FLHerne's link first :)
15:19<pasky>FLHerne: thanks
15:19<FLHerne>Or CargoDist, of course :P
15:19<frosch123>FLHerne: yes, ofc. we discussed such feature since at least 200u8
15:19<andythenorth>I think it's a misfeature
15:20<FLHerne>That patch seems to be rather buggy though, sadly :-(
15:20<andythenorth>if you're only playing 30 years, you don't need consists
15:20<FLHerne>Works enough to be useful, though
15:20*andythenorth proposes everyone must play the way andythenorth dictates
15:20<andythenorth>if games last, 30 years I can make FIRS smaller
15:20<FLHerne>andythenorth: Why would you want to play 30 years? Where's the fun? :P
15:20<frosch123>i thought you were bored about your style of play? :p
15:20<andythenorth>I am
15:21*FLHerne plays 1919 to 2012 normally
15:21<andythenorth>I keep starting in 1870
15:21<pasky>hmm, is the two-way feeder service dependent just on timing?
15:21<andythenorth>then I watch boringly slow vehicles pottering around, with broken towns
15:21<pasky>ah never mind, i think i get it now
15:21<andythenorth>wondering how I'll ever get enough ships into FISH to cover pre-1950 :P
15:21<andythenorth>and being annoyed that I have no trucks
15:21<andythenorth>and that FIRS refuses to build industries
15:22<pasky>still, wouldn't a patch for this be trivial? at least for the simple case, "don't pick up cargo if you'd unload it at the originating station"
15:22<FLHerne>pasky: No. The idea is you have one station where RVs only unload an trains only load, and another for the opposite
15:22<andythenorth>two way feeder service is remarkably stupid
15:22<pasky>oh... well, there isn't really room for another train station :(
15:22<andythenorth>I wouldn't bother
15:22<pasky>i guess i'll get coding
15:22<andythenorth>pasky: you'll need to track cargo packets
15:22<andythenorth>enjoy ;)
15:23<pasky>but the game already knows originating station of each packet
15:23*andythenorth considers changing the goals for FISH
15:23<pasky>of course the naive approach won't work for complex multi-level feeder services
15:23<FLHerne>pasky: There was a reason that didn't work
15:23*FLHerne looks on the forums for it
15:23<pasky>but i think that doesn't preclude solving the simple case
15:23<frosch123>pasky: there is already such a patch somewhere which solves the case for a single hop feeder
15:23<pasky>is there a reason why it wasn't merged?
15:24<frosch123>i am sure there was
15:26<@Alberth>pasky: with 3 stations you can have cargo traveling in circles
15:26<frosch123>most likely because it already fails with 3 stations, which i would consider the standard case
15:26<frosch123>of rv-aircraft-rv, and rv-ship-rv
15:27<pasky>Alberth: yes, but isn't it better to solve at least the simple case now?
15:27<frosch123>no, i just adds useless bloat
15:28<pasky>well it's not useless when it solves an issue
15:28<andythenorth>first we need to make everything cargo, then we could fix feeders
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15:28<frosch123>pasky: who uses two-hop feeders without using three-hop feeders?
15:28<pasky>me :)
15:28<andythenorth>patch locally :)
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15:29<pasky>sure, but why not help others too while at it
15:29<FLHerne>That was why the simplistic cargo tagging didn't work
15:29<FLHerne>See rest of thread too, in fact
15:29<frosch123>maybe we try to help patchpacks to get a userbase :p
15:33<@Alberth>pasky: no, because it takes less than a week before we get complaints that a slightly more advanced case fails. Since the patch has no grow path to the full solution, it is just wasted effort, and creates more corner cases, and even gets in the way once you add a proper solution
15:33<pasky>FLHerne: thanks, that's helpful for showing pitfalls a more proper solution must avoid
15:34<@Alberth>frosch123: let's start our own patchpack :p
15:34<pasky>Alberth: hm, i don't really agree with most of that but i agree with the last point, that's right...
15:35<frosch123>Alberth: do we have any central goal in our patch?
15:35<@Alberth>does it need one?
15:36<@Alberth>we can have one if you like
15:36<@Alberth>as much as possible users?
15:36<frosch123>or as much as possible developers?
15:36<@Alberth>as much as possible patches?
15:37<frosch123>yeah, in number of patches independent of loc
15:37<frosch123>that sounds nice :)
15:37<frosch123>but no cheating, no reverts
15:38<@Alberth>not needed with a patch queue :D
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15:42<frosch123>yeah, we should maintain the complete span between stable branches as a patch queue
15:42<frosch123>no trunk commits anymore
15:43*andythenorth upgrades all outdated macports packages
15:43<andythenorth>this will end badly
15:43*andythenorth wants to fix python
15:45<frosch123>old movies are weird
15:45<frosch123>sometimes they really mess up their special effects
15:45<frosch123>when they could really make them way better with some trivial adjusting
15:49<andythenorth>it has been suggested that I reinstall my OS X to fix my python issues
15:49<andythenorth>I am not convinced that is wise
15:50<frosch123>install a virtual machine
15:50<frosch123>and just python inside that
15:50<frosch123>if that works you can trash you main os, and install a minimal os which only supports running vms
15:51<andythenorth>then I could run OS X in the VM :P
15:51*andythenorth trashes python
15:51<frosch123>haha, some things never change
15:52<frosch123>some pretty girls are only in a movie to get eaten alive in the third scene
15:54<FLHerne>andythenorth: Linux :D
15:54<andythenorth>then I could run OS X in a Linux VM
15:55<FLHerne>Why would you want OSX anyway? What advantage does it have?
15:55*FLHerne removed it from all his PPC Macs
15:55<andythenorth>it has the advantage that I don't have to relearn 'computer'
15:55<andythenorth>I don't like 'computer'
15:55<andythenorth>I don't want to spend time on 'computer'
15:56<FLHerne>Recabbage a Linux DE to behave mostly like OSX then :P
15:56<andythenorth>sounds like work
15:57<FLHerne>Use KDE, then you can change stuff to whatever makes sense to you :P
15:58<FLHerne>Unfortunately, that means no-one else can use my computer, but anyway...
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15:58<frosch123>don't switch to something which is heading for touchscreen-usability unless you have a touchscreen
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15:59*andythenorth suspects that having two versions of python 2.6 was silly anyway
15:59<frosch123>i think that is the most important rule nowadays
15:59<FLHerne>Mint, with KDE, then :D
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16:00<FLHerne>Maya KDE RC1 is finally out, which is good
16:00<andythenorth>maybe I should blitz setuptools
16:01<andythenorth>maybe I should just do this on python 2.7 :P
16:04<Zuu>maybe I should fire up visual studio and fix the coding style issue of my patch
16:05<Zuu>though the problem to be fixed can easily be fixed in the patch itself, it makes sense to change the source files and re-generate the patch :-)
16:08<FLHerne>andythenorth: Do the cranes etc on CHIPS tiles need such large bounding boxes?
16:08<andythenorth>not sure
16:08<FLHerne>Or are they just that shape for convenience?
16:08<andythenorth>not sure :)
16:08<andythenorth>didn't code them
16:08<@Alberth>Zuu: it does? I often pull patches from the queue, change the patch file, and re-apply :p
16:09<FLHerne>Ok. I'll assume "they don't but it doesn't matter" than :P
16:09<andythenorth>this has been puzzling me for two days now
16:09<Zuu>Alberth: I tend to not touch the patch files other than sometimes grab them from .hg/.. instead of producing them on the fly.
16:09<andythenorth>I have also tried a new shell after the easy_install
16:10<andythenorth>I've reinstalled setuptools
16:10<Zuu>but I guess that makes sense as well to change the patch.
16:10<andythenorth>the 'reinstall OS X' solution will take me two days
16:10<FLHerne>andythenorth: Also, why does cranes.png have two identical lines, and one which entirely consists of transparency?
16:11<+michi_cc>andythenorth: I don't see any line where it says /System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.6/bin was added to PATH (and no line about copying/symlinking to /usr/bin or similar either)
16:11<andythenorth>FLHerne: no idea
16:11<andythenorth>michi_cc: I'll symlink
16:12<@Alberth>Zuu: it's a bit dangerous, as patch files are not version controlled
16:12<FLHerne>andythenorth: Did you not draw most of it? :P
16:12<+michi_cc>andythenorth: Mind you I've got no idea whether this is intended or not.
16:12<andythenorth>FLHerne: yes
16:13<FLHerne>andythenorth: And you still don't know why it's like that? :P
16:14<FLHerne>Ah well. I suppose I'll find out why when I break it :P
16:14<andythenorth>should this be executable in shell? /System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.6/bin/virtualenv
16:14<andythenorth>i.e. if I do $/System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.6/bin/virtualenv
16:16<andythenorth>so the package is missing
16:17<andythenorth>I have an egg for it in site-packages
16:17<@Alberth>the egg is just meta information iirc :)
16:18<andythenorth>contains a bunch of .py and other files
16:21<andythenorth>my path is exporting
16:21<andythenorth>my python is broken though :P
16:22*andythenorth blames setuptools :P
16:23<@Alberth>that's ok :)
16:25<andythenorth>some stuff works fine
16:29<FLHerne>andythenorth: Are non-track concrete slab platforms supposed to match the track ones? They don't :P
16:30<FLHerne>CHIPS :P
16:30<andythenorth>but which base set?
16:30<FLHerne>OGFX, yes
16:30<FLHerne>Ah, I see
16:31<FLHerne>So it uses the baseset tiles for the full-tile tiles?
16:32*FLHerne needs a thesaurus
16:34<@Alberth>goof night
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16:47<CornishPasty>Wow, uppercase hostname, how quaint!
16:48<frosch123>sorry, but you are only the third one to notice
16:50<andythenorth>ha ha
16:51<andythenorth>I've totally broken my local newgrf environment now too
16:51<andythenorth>hg is broken
16:51<andythenorth>among other things
16:51<frosch123>sounds like it was intentional :
16:52<andythenorth>you can only rm so many things before stuff breaks :P
16:52<frosch123>yeah, you should not try to reboot
16:52<frosch123>better get a small generator so you do not suffer from power outage
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16:58<andythenorth>stack overflow is all our friends
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17:07*andythenorth ponders using nml in virtualenv with bootstrap
17:07<andythenorth>also BANDIT, FISH :P
17:09<andythenorth>the author says that's a bad idea
17:12<FLHerne>andythenorth: Do you think all the rotations for cranes, forklifts etc are needed for CHIPS objects?
17:13*FLHerne tries to decide how to categorise them
17:13<andythenorth>you could randomise them
17:13<andythenorth>I think that's what CHIPS does
17:13<andythenorth>do objects have random?
17:13<FLHerne>They probably do, but that wouldn't be suitable
17:14<FLHerne>Eyecandy builders don't like random much :P
17:14<andythenorth>better give them all the angles then ;)
17:14<FLHerne>I suppose I could try that out
17:15<FLHerne>Worried about menu clutter though
17:15<andythenorth>pick the angles you like then
17:15<andythenorth>ship it and see who complains?
17:15<FLHerne>I'll try both and see which works for me
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17:33<@Terkhen>good night
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---Logclosed Fri Jul 13 00:00:06 2012