--- | Log | opened Thu Jul 12 00:00:06 2012 |
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01:44 | <@Terkhen> | good morning |
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03:23 | <dihedral> | good morning |
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03:26 | <@Alberth> | moin |
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03:36 | <dihedral> | hello Alberth |
03:40 | <@planetmaker> | moin |
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04:32 | <arnold> | hallo freunde. unser server läuft im web auf nen linux. wir versuchen hier seit ner stunde die mapsize zu ändern mit google & co. der will duie einfach nicht erhöhen von 256 auf 1024 |
04:32 | <arnold> | hat jemand iene idee ? kann doch nicht so tricky sein :/ |
04:33 | <@Alberth> | when you speak English, more people will understand what you say :) |
04:34 | <arnold> | hi :) i cant change the mapsize from 256 to 1024. linux webserver. we edit the openttd.cfg for example map_x = 10 .... but when we restart, the server will create a 256map :/ |
04:35 | <@Alberth> | openttd writes the config on exit |
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04:35 | <cra> | hi |
04:35 | <arnold> | how can i setup a server (newgame) with a mapsize like 1024 (=10) |
04:35 | <@Alberth> | so editing while the server runs is a little useless :) |
04:36 | <@Alberth> | hi cra |
04:36 | <arnold> | i can use the command window .. ~ ?! right? |
04:36 | <@Alberth> | arnold: first shutdown the openttd program before you edit the config file |
04:37 | <arnold> | i will test ... :) |
04:38 | <@Alberth> | arnold: the usual way of doing things is to prepare a config file at a normal desktop game, that works much better than editing the file directly |
04:38 | <arnold> | omg ... :D its work. my buddy has nerver stop the server. only edit, then restart :D |
04:38 | <arnold> | now it works , thx :* ^^ |
04:39 | <@Alberth> | that's what happens if you stop openttd from overwriting your careful edits :D |
04:39 | <arnold> | thx my friend :) |
04:40 | <@Alberth> | yw :) |
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04:41 | <@Alberth> | bye cra |
04:44 | <arnold> | ehy alberth, next one :) |
04:44 | <arnold> | hey |
04:45 | <arnold> | which configtext ist for the numbers of town. because, our new 1024map has a less number aof towns ^^ |
04:45 | <arnold> | an industrie |
04:45 | <arnold> | and |
04:46 | <@Alberth> | no idea, I am sure you can find it if you want, but instead make a good config file at a desktop game, and then copy the config file to the server |
04:46 | <@Alberth> | that's way easier |
04:46 | <arnold> | aaaah, ok :) thx |
04:47 | <arnold> | now i must play. our boss is away .. big ttd officeparty :D |
04:47 | <arnold> | bye :) |
04:47 | <@Alberth> | bye :) |
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05:40 | <@peter1138> | When my boss is away they just piss of home early instead. |
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06:10 | <NGC3982> | i cant stand business offices that cant keep control on employees. |
06:11 | <Sacro> | Yes |
06:11 | * | Sacro sits on IRC at work |
06:11 | * | NGC3982 puts lots of time on keeping his employees occupied enough never have a reason to go home early. |
06:12 | * | NGC3982 also needs to look at what he is writing before sending it, apparently. |
06:12 | * | Warod believes the work must be interesting enough to keep people doing it! |
06:12 | <NGC3982> | yes, of course. |
06:13 | <NGC3982> | though, i fail to understand how a business can be profiting at all with systems that allow people to simply walk home unnoticed. |
06:13 | <NGC3982> | it seems to say a fair bit about the effectiveness, at least. |
06:15 | <@planetmaker> | quite right comment, Alberth |
06:15 | <@planetmaker> | (on NML) |
06:15 | <@planetmaker> | actually in all aspects :-P Including "too alien" ;-) |
06:16 | <Warod> | NGC3982: Hmm? Stuff gets done so what's the problem? :P |
06:16 | <NGC3982> | Warod: if 40% effective work gives fair profit, 80% should do more. |
06:17 | <@Alberth> | planetmaker: :) |
06:17 | <NGC3982> | Warod: dont you think? :) |
06:17 | <Warod> | NGC3982: It's summer... do you think I get myself to the office? Haven't been at the office even once after my summer vacation ended nearly two weeks ago. :P |
06:17 | <@Alberth> | planetmaker: the hard part is however the "some macro expansion system" :) |
06:17 | <NGC3982> | Warod: then i guess you have the privilegde to control your profit without presence. |
06:17 | <@planetmaker> | Alberth, you may (or may not) have noticed, that xotic made an m4nml system? |
06:18 | <NGC3982> | Warod: and that is of course not the case in normal work > employee situations. |
06:18 | <@Alberth> | I did not, how nice |
06:18 | <@planetmaker> | yes... I'd have much more appreciation for it though, if he'd talk to me before re-writing newgrfs I'm part in, though :S |
06:18 | <Warod> | NGC3982: I do most of the profitable deals and handle the difficult cases. :P |
06:18 | <NGC3982> | Eddi|zuHause: fyi; the /dev/random function worked out nicely, and fitted my experiment perfectly. |
06:19 | <@planetmaker> | and could at least feel like doing more than "accept or reject" the whole re-write |
06:19 | <@planetmaker> | thus I haven't quite replied to it at all so far... not good either |
06:20 | <@Alberth> | I fully agree, changing stuff without asking others is not good |
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06:20 | <@planetmaker> | it's not committed to the "official" repo. But still... lots of time gone into it |
06:20 | <@planetmaker> | supposedly |
06:20 | <Warod> | NGC3982: Also.. I tend to be where I need to be. And office is hardly ever one of those places. ^^ |
06:21 | <@Alberth> | say you have some trouble with the direction it is going? |
06:21 | <@planetmaker> | tbh, I've no clue really *which* he likes to take it. Thus I've more a problem of seeing any direction really... I see mostly a problem in communication |
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06:22 | <@Alberth> | sounds like it yeah |
06:22 | <@Alberth> | hi Pixa |
06:22 | <Pixa> | Hello |
06:23 | <@planetmaker> | and sadly I'm annoyed by it. Which makes me... not a nice person to communicate with then. Thus I remained silent so far. In order to not needlessly insult |
06:23 | <@Alberth> | a cautious PM asking for what direction it is going? |
06:24 | <@planetmaker> | yeah, I should do that |
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06:44 | <@peter1138> | Warod, exactly, they can do all the work from home. |
06:45 | <@Alberth> | who needs a HQ anyway :D |
06:45 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i tend to not get anything done at home... |
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06:54 | <Hirundo> | Alberth: Interesting thoughts (http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/3637) |
06:55 | <@Alberth> | yeah, it makes it more complicated though, unfortunately |
06:55 | <Hirundo> | I'm not sure if NML needs a full (token-level) macro processor |
06:55 | <@Alberth> | why not? |
06:56 | * | planetmaker assigns task to Alberth ;-) |
06:56 | <NGC3982> | Warod: well, i guess you are a supervisor? |
06:56 | <@planetmaker> | when will it be done? :-P |
06:56 | <Hirundo> | Those already exist as cpp, m4, etc. rewriting them would be pointless |
06:56 | <Hirundo> | I'm more thinking along the lines of parametrized 'item templates', like real sprite templates |
06:57 | <@Alberth> | 'cat' also already exists, yet you made an issue for including files :) |
06:57 | <@planetmaker> | that most likely hits home most cases, Hirundo |
06:57 | <Warod> | NGC3982: Not really, no. |
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06:58 | <@Alberth> | Yeah, I left open what kind of macro expansion you want; cpp is very general purpose and low-level, probably due to hysteric reasons |
06:59 | <Hirundo> | basically you'd want the equivalent of C++ templates instead of C macros |
06:59 | * | Alberth nods |
07:00 | <@Alberth> | template SOMENAME(PARAMS) { <aribtrary nml defs> } ? |
07:00 | <@Alberth> | and SOMENAME(1); SOMENAME(2); etc |
07:01 | <@planetmaker> | would be nice, if one could then also template switches with this means |
07:01 | <@Alberth> | just pick the non-terminal to be used between the curly brackets :) ) |
07:02 | <@planetmaker> | which would imply that something like the cpp directive part1 ## part2 exists |
07:03 | <@Alberth> | why do you need that? |
07:03 | <Hirundo> | IMO switches suck in general, they are very inconvenient for general programming work |
07:03 | <@Alberth> | (assuming names in a template are local) |
07:03 | <@planetmaker> | switches for different vehicles need different names in NML |
07:05 | <@Alberth> | planetmaker: ie do you need those names from outside the template? |
07:05 | <Hirundo> | I have been thinking about namespaces to solve those naming issues |
07:05 | <@planetmaker> | well. The template must expand to different switch names when being used, Alberth |
07:05 | * | Alberth nods |
07:05 | <@Alberth> | a local name means it is unique |
07:06 | <@planetmaker> | a local naming scheme would make this probably (much) easier |
07:06 | <@Alberth> | and only exists within the template instance |
07:06 | <@planetmaker> | thus you define a name space per vehicle. And then you can re-use the same template over and over |
07:06 | <@Alberth> | that would be one case yes |
07:07 | <@Alberth> | it is like { int x; { int y; } /* y is not known here */ { int y; /* this is a different y */ } } in c++ |
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07:08 | <@Alberth> | obviously this fails if you need y outside the innermost brackets :) |
07:11 | <@planetmaker> | yes. Any possibility to export it? |
07:11 | <Hirundo> | namespace::y (if the namespace is named) |
07:12 | <@Alberth> | that's to be decided, I'd prefer it as return value or as incoming name through the parameter list |
07:12 | <@Alberth> | the latter is easier, probably |
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10:11 | <@Belugas> | hello |
10:11 | <dihedral> | hello Belugas |
10:12 | <@Belugas> | sir dihedral :) |
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11:09 | * | FLHerne fails to install NML |
11:10 | <FLHerne> | alien doesn't like the rpm :-( |
11:13 | <FLHerne> | Ah, well, I'll have to compile it :-( |
11:14 | <@Terkhen> | hg clone the repo and symlink nmlc to /usr/bin/ |
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11:18 | <FLHerne> | Never used hg :p |
11:19 | <@Terkhen> | I assume that you can do the same with tarballs/binaries |
11:19 | <FLHerne> | Used http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NMLTutorial/Installation#Installing_NML , neither method works :P |
11:20 | <@Terkhen> | not that hg is complicated to use |
11:21 | <FLHerne> | Well, I'll learn to use it when I have to :P . They've got tar.gz archives, and I know how to use those already... |
11:23 | <FLHerne> | Installed it following the instructions, and now I get lots of python error messages :-( |
11:24 | <@Terkhen> | without knowing the errors we cant help you :P |
11:24 | <@Terkhen> | but you are probably missing pil and ply |
11:26 | * | FLHerne goes to look up package namel for them |
11:26 | <FLHerne> | s/el/es/ |
11:26 | <FLHerne> | Perhaps it should mention dependencies on the installation instructions? |
11:27 | <FLHerne> | Hah, it does but I missed them :P |
11:27 | * | FLHerne needs to read these things more carefully :-( |
11:27 | <@Terkhen> | IIRC it is mentioned, yes :) |
11:29 | <FLHerne> | Works now, sorry to bother you |
11:29 | * | FLHerne wonders if there's a sequence of puctuation for 'embarrassed face' :P |
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12:13 | <frosch123> | hello kids |
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12:19 | <Way> | hello :) |
12:20 | <Way> | why i dont see all signs in list? |
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13:15 | <andythenorth> | Terkhen: http://www.railpictures.net/photo/402762/ |
13:19 | <@Terkhen> | andythenorth: where in spain is that? :P |
13:20 | <__ln__> | Terkhen: there's a map |
13:20 | <@Terkhen> | ooh, I see |
13:20 | <__ln__> | i was going to ask which newgrf is that |
13:23 | <frosch123> | we removed it from bananas because we don't like realism |
13:25 | <__ln__> | good |
13:35 | -!- | DDR [~chatzilla@d172-218-2-5.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd |
13:45 | -!- | Supercheese [~chatzilla@50-37-107-68.mscw.id.frontiernet.net] has joined #openttd |
13:45 | <CIA-4> | OpenTTD: translators * r24396 /trunk/src/lang/ (czech.txt latvian.txt polish.txt): |
13:45 | <CIA-4> | OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: |
13:45 | <CIA-4> | OpenTTD: czech - 14 changes by Eskymak |
13:45 | <CIA-4> | OpenTTD: latvian - 3 changes by Parastais |
13:45 | <CIA-4> | OpenTTD: polish - 3 changes by wojteks86 |
13:50 | <andythenorth> | what shall we talk nonsense about? |
13:52 | <FLHerne> | andythenorth: I'm trying to code your CHIPS tiles as NewObjects now :P |
13:53 | <andythenorth> | have fun :) |
13:53 | <andythenorth> | they won't accept cargo :P |
13:54 | <FLHerne> | I know |
13:54 | <Supercheese> | Making them overlap roads like the ISR NewObjects set? |
13:54 | <andythenorth> | that's such a hack :P |
13:54 | <FLHerne> | But they will be able to be built on more slope types :-) |
13:54 | <andythenorth> | clever, but monstrous |
13:54 | <FLHerne> | If I can figure out this NML gibberish, anyway :P |
13:54 | <Supercheese> | agreed, sort of like Push/Pull trains |
13:56 | <andythenorth> | FLHerne: you just copy one of the existing nml objects grfs? |
13:56 | <andythenorth> | probably one on devzone |
13:56 | <FLHerne> | But then I wouldn't learn :D |
13:56 | <frosch123> | [19:50] <andythenorth> what shall we talk nonsense about? <- how about deprecating non-track station tiles, and adding a flag to object definitions whether they shall be offered in objects-, stations-, bus-, airport-,... gui? :p |
13:56 | <andythenorth> | ok |
13:56 | * | FLHerne tries to be productive for once :D |
13:56 | <andythenorth> | frosch123: would we mind sanitising the spec too? |
13:57 | <andythenorth> | maybe by copying objects or something? |
13:57 | <andythenorth> | [is objects sane?] |
13:57 | <frosch123> | no :p |
13:57 | <andythenorth> | would these objects be allowed to accept cargo? |
13:57 | <andythenorth> | can we reimplement everything as subclass of object :P |
13:57 | <andythenorth> | and give them cbs to accept / produce cargo too |
13:57 | <frosch123> | maybe they should be allowed to construct vehicles and send them onto your tracks |
13:58 | <andythenorth> | and state machines for routing vehicles |
13:58 | <andythenorth> | one way to rule them all :P |
13:58 | <andythenorth> | 'everything is an object' |
13:58 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
13:59 | <frosch123> | we should propose that to p1sim |
13:59 | <andythenorth> | actually we might use that as a bonkers way to do openttd 2.0 |
13:59 | <andythenorth> | I think we should do something silly |
13:59 | <andythenorth> | fuck all this realism stuff :P |
13:59 | <andythenorth> | oops andythenorth got sweary |
13:59 | <andythenorth> | it's been a long 2 years and 5 months :P |
14:00 | <frosch123> | real hoover buses? |
14:00 | <andythenorth> | yes, hoover buses that suck things up |
14:00 | <frosch123> | we can unify rv and aircraft by adding an hoover height property to rv |
14:00 | <andythenorth> | unify ships too |
14:01 | <andythenorth> | that's fine |
14:01 | <andythenorth> | everything is just 'vehicle' |
14:01 | <frosch123> | submarines are just a negative hoover height |
14:01 | -!- | KouDy [~KouDy@115.133.0.91] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] |
14:01 | <andythenorth> | then my 'vehicles' python framework for newgrf starts looking like the game :P |
14:01 | <FLHerne> | Road-rail vehicles? |
14:01 | <andythenorth> | don't be silly :) |
14:01 | <andythenorth> | how could that ever work :) |
14:01 | <FLHerne> | How about flying cars, those would need variable hoover height...? |
14:02 | <andythenorth> | just offset the graphics :P |
14:02 | <frosch123> | roadtypes are just a type of railtypes |
14:02 | * | andythenorth ponders that idea |
14:02 | <andythenorth> | frosch123: no. |
14:02 | <andythenorth> | type of routetype |
14:02 | <frosch123> | that would also unify trams and rails |
14:02 | <FLHerne> | and canals too? :P |
14:02 | <frosch123> | including tracks which can both run trams and real trains |
14:02 | <andythenorth> | but route is just a question of state machine on the object |
14:02 | <andythenorth> | every tile = state machine, with programmable logic |
14:02 | <frosch123> | you just need some flag which tells whether two tracktrypes can run in the same direction or cross only |
14:03 | <andythenorth> | then we beat minecraft |
14:03 | <andythenorth> | Eddi|zuHause will love it |
14:03 | <andythenorth> | he may actually wet himself |
14:03 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
14:03 | <andythenorth> | maybe we can reimplement it from scratch |
14:03 | <andythenorth> | but we sack graphics, just use ascii |
14:03 | <frosch123> | then you could just define that maglev crossing on normal rail need crossing gates |
14:03 | <FLHerne> | frosch123: Surely for combined train/tram you'd need variable tram sprite offsets? |
14:03 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
14:03 | <andythenorth> | maybe we just use unicode actually |
14:04 | <andythenorth> | more chars :P |
14:04 | <andythenorth> | and it's 2d only |
14:04 | <FLHerne> | Rails are down the middle, tramtracks are off to the side |
14:04 | <frosch123> | andythenorth: just braille characters |
14:04 | <andythenorth> | I don't have a braille display :( |
14:04 | <andythenorth> | which is sad |
14:04 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
14:04 | <andythenorth> | we could get 3D printers |
14:04 | <andythenorth> | then you print out each tick in braille |
14:04 | <frosch123> | http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/png2braille/ |
14:05 | <frosch123> | wrote that years ago |
14:05 | <andythenorth> | :) |
14:05 | <frosch123> | but i cannot control the skipping between the lines |
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14:05 | <andythenorth> | if we make the game printed, we can relax about optimisation |
14:06 | <andythenorth> | as each tick will take a while :P |
14:06 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
14:06 | -!- | wouterh [wouterh@chat-utelscin.scintilla.utwente.nl] has joined #openttd |
14:06 | <andythenorth> | also my idea for cargo flows 'downhill' is literally implementable |
14:06 | <FLHerne> | Have it lasercut onto sheets of perspex |
14:06 | <frosch123> | multiplayer would use mail? or would it also allow email? |
14:06 | <FLHerne> | Then you could stack them to watch movement |
14:06 | <andythenorth> | why not just fully networked? |
14:07 | <andythenorth> | you both print same |
14:07 | <andythenorth> | I don't think we need to over-complicate this |
14:07 | <andythenorth> | keep it simple I say |
14:07 | <andythenorth> | keep the current networking stack, seems to work ok |
14:07 | <andythenorth> | no more latency issues either |
14:07 | <Supercheese> | Client timeout: out of toner |
14:08 | <andythenorth> | true |
14:08 | <andythenorth> | we could keep most of newgrf |
14:08 | <frosch123> | but we need some kind of cheating protection |
14:08 | <andythenorth> | true |
14:08 | <frosch123> | people should not be allowed to draw stuff by hand |
14:09 | <Supercheese> | Well, it's hard to draw in toner, surely that has a different composition than ink |
14:09 | <andythenorth> | actually I'm completely baffled what the input mechanism would be for players |
14:09 | <andythenorth> | we have output, but where's the interface :o |
14:09 | <Supercheese> | voice commands |
14:09 | <andythenorth> | punched cards might work |
14:10 | <frosch123> | yeah turn ottd into a card game |
14:10 | <frosch123> | that also makes it suitable for offices |
14:10 | <andythenorth> | we'd solve the OS X bugs as well |
14:10 | <andythenorth> | or rather, we'd be platform independent |
14:10 | <frosch123> | :o |
14:11 | <frosch123> | platform independent? |
14:11 | <andythenorth> | well you'd need a table I guess |
14:11 | <frosch123> | not sure, it might need a solid desk for massive networks |
14:11 | <Supercheese> | dammit, was just gonna say ya need a table |
14:11 | <Supercheese> | Hmm, you could make the cards magnetic |
14:11 | <Supercheese> | any metal surface would do |
14:12 | <andythenorth> | but anyway |
14:12 | <andythenorth> | 'everything is object' ? |
14:12 | <frosch123> | or vehicle |
14:12 | <andythenorth> | then I can recode all my grfs again |
14:12 | <frosch123> | i don't know how to add a superclass to object and vehicle |
14:12 | <andythenorth> | 'thing' |
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14:13 | <frosch123> | track might be a third class |
14:13 | <frosch123> | and empty void |
14:13 | <andythenorth> | consider a fish processing ship? |
14:13 | <andythenorth> | object or vehicle? |
14:13 | <Supercheese> | Vehicle/Industry/Station |
14:13 | <andythenorth> | station is a capability, not a class |
14:13 | <andythenorth> | perhaps everything is just an object |
14:13 | <andythenorth> | and objects can route objects |
14:14 | <frosch123> | andythenorth: you mean a ship mining iron, precessing it into more ships of the same type? |
14:14 | <andythenorth> | why not indeed |
14:14 | <andythenorth> | cargo is an object? |
14:14 | <Supercheese> | By the year 3,000, everything is just nanomachines making more nanomachines |
14:14 | <frosch123> | vehicles should be cargo |
14:14 | <frosch123> | but a ship can also carry a nuclear power plant |
14:14 | <andythenorth> | objects: can create, route, destroy other objects |
14:14 | <frosch123> | so, any "thing" can be a cargo |
14:15 | <andythenorth> | true |
14:15 | <frosch123> | Supercheese: yeah, overpopulation is solved my making people smaller |
14:17 | <andythenorth> | in Soviet Russia, entire factories were moved by rail |
14:17 | <andythenorth> | not whilst producing tanks though :P |
14:17 | <andythenorth> | http://www.mammoet.com/Global/Pictures%20Canada/About%20us/Mammoet%20Moves%20Alberta!%20%20(CANADA)%20small.jpg |
14:18 | <frosch123> | russia also has mobile nuclear powerplants in ships, in case you need a lot of power in some random place |
14:18 | <frosch123> | it also solves the cooling issue nicely |
14:18 | <Supercheese> | Error: Found opening token "In Soviet Russia", expected ending token "YOU!" not found |
14:20 | <andythenorth> | frosch123: we need a newgrf spec for this :P |
14:20 | <andythenorth> | cb 27D: can cargo be loaded into cargo? |
14:21 | <andythenorth> | cb 39A: can cargo be routed? |
14:21 | <frosch123> | cb 666: is cargo human player? |
14:22 | <andythenorth> | :P |
14:22 | <Supercheese> | cb1.21: is object capable of time travel? |
14:24 | <frosch123> | active or passive? |
14:24 | <frosch123> | does it travel itself, or does it travel other stuff only? |
14:24 | <FLHerne> | cb [insert no here]: Is object retroactively built at start of game when constructed? |
14:24 | <andythenorth> | FLHerne: the number will be filled in later |
14:24 | <andythenorth> | by future developers |
14:25 | <andythenorth> | actually we should add this to openttd |
14:25 | <andythenorth> | changelog would say |
14:25 | <frosch123> | oh wait, it's already there |
14:25 | <andythenorth> | Feature: to be added by future developer |
14:25 | <frosch123> | looks like it has been there since r1 |
14:25 | <andythenorth> | frosch123: it was probably there before that |
14:25 | <andythenorth> | just nobody noticed |
14:25 | <andythenorth> | does a feature exist if no-one is checking for it? |
14:26 | <frosch123> | obviously the old svn crash was initiated by devs from the future to hide their actions |
14:26 | <FLHerne> | Actually, all construction tools should have a retroactive option |
14:26 | <FLHerne> | I keep wishing I'd built/modified something earlier |
14:27 | <FLHerne> | It needs a setting for how long ago to build it, too :P |
14:27 | <frosch123> | why? |
14:27 | <frosch123> | it just needs to be there before you look at it |
14:32 | * | andythenorth will be back earlier |
14:32 | -!- | andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] |
14:33 | <frosch123> | oh shit... he caught himself in a loop |
14:34 | <frosch123> | farewell andy |
14:41 | * | Supercheese is designing a webpage. |
14:42 | <Supercheese> | Have the border padded by 0, 1, or 2px? Hmmm |
14:42 | -!- | andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd |
14:42 | * | Supercheese is going to be dreaming in CSS tonight. |
14:43 | <Supercheese> | margin:0; |
14:43 | <Supercheese> | padding:0 10px 0 20px; |
14:43 | <Supercheese> | position:relative; |
14:44 | <frosch123> | why px? |
14:44 | <frosch123> | why not em? |
14:44 | <Supercheese> | Hm, either my eyesight is failing or in Times New Roman a 0 and two parenthesis () look the same from a distance |
14:45 | <frosch123> | don't bother |
14:45 | <frosch123> | i just noticed myself how old i am |
14:45 | <frosch123> | 10 years and 11 days ago i started my military service |
14:46 | <frosch123> | that means i somehow missed 10 years schools-out |
14:47 | <Supercheese> | Oh, and because padding a border by 1em is way too much padding |
14:47 | <Supercheese> | That particular line was just taken at random |
14:47 | <frosch123> | then use 0.1 em |
14:48 | <andythenorth> | don't restart the px / em debate :P |
14:48 | <andythenorth> | px had finally won |
14:48 | <andythenorth> | then it got unpicked |
14:48 | <andythenorth> | now we have retina to consider |
14:48 | <andythenorth> | and all kinds of other crap |
14:49 | <FLHerne> | andythenorth: Your concrete tile looks nice as an object :D |
14:49 | <Supercheese> | I've had retinae for quite a while... ;) |
14:49 | * | FLHerne made something that sort-of worked for once :P |
14:51 | <andythenorth> | :) |
14:51 | * | andythenorth is still griping about the game |
14:51 | <andythenorth> | everything I thought I wanted - roadtypes, multistop docks, newstations etc |
14:51 | <andythenorth> | I think I don't |
14:51 | <FLHerne> | Why? |
14:52 | <andythenorth> | everything is just more and more smooth and less and less interesting |
14:52 | <FLHerne> | From which POV? |
14:52 | <andythenorth> | games need facets and edges and problems |
14:52 | * | frosch123 plays some alley cat |
14:52 | * | andythenorth googles |
14:53 | <frosch123> | 1984 |
14:53 | <andythenorth> | needs an OS X port :P |
14:53 | <Supercheese> | Hmmm, prescale the image, or let the CSS do the scaling? |
14:53 | <FLHerne> | Really? They need limitations, but not artificial and pointless ones... |
14:53 | <andythenorth> | oh a broom :) |
14:53 | <andythenorth> | broomcat |
14:54 | <andythenorth> | we're doing it all wrong |
14:54 | <andythenorth> | atm |
14:55 | <FLHerne> | 90-degree-only roads are an annoyance, not an interesting restriction:-( |
14:55 | * | andythenorth waits for a java version of alley cat to finish crashing Safari :P |
14:55 | -!- | roadt [~roadt@114.96.134.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] |
14:55 | <frosch123> | it only runs in dosbox anyway |
14:56 | <Rubidium> | andythenorth: which OS X does it need to be ported to? |
14:57 | <andythenorth> | mine! |
14:57 | <andythenorth> | not yours :P |
14:59 | <andythenorth> | game timespan is too long |
14:59 | <andythenorth> | maps are too big |
14:59 | <andythenorth> | newgrfs are too big |
15:00 | <andythenorth> | and if I wanted a model train set, I'd get one |
15:00 | <andythenorth> | newgrf is win, PBS is win, GS is probably win |
15:01 | <andythenorth> | and andythenorth is talking to self again :P |
15:01 | <andythenorth> | time for beer |
15:01 | <andythenorth> | I think BANDIT is probably going to suck btw |
15:01 | <andythenorth> | every time I look at it, I wonder what the point is |
15:01 | <Supercheese> | Sorry, no BEER, you forgot to put it in the cargotable |
15:01 | <andythenorth> | I disagree ;) |
15:01 | <Supercheese> | :P |
15:01 | <andythenorth> | all trucks look about the same |
15:02 | <andythenorth> | but every few years they just get a bit faster |
15:02 | <andythenorth> | so then you have to autoreplace them all |
15:02 | <andythenorth> | I might as well just code them to 'get a bit faster' every few years |
15:02 | <andythenorth> | and give them 255 year lifespans |
15:02 | <Supercheese> | Surely their running costs also change over the years |
15:02 | <frosch123> | andythenorth: play a game with nuts |
15:02 | -!- | Alberth [~hat3@2001:980:272e:1:21a:92ff:fe55:fc8d] has joined #openttd |
15:02 | -!- | mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ |
15:03 | <andythenorth> | ha |
15:03 | <andythenorth> | good point |
15:03 | <andythenorth> | also, spanish beer or french? |
15:03 | <frosch123> | nuts has some special aspects |
15:03 | <@Terkhen> | neither? :P |
15:03 | <frosch123> | esp. the way it deals with short vehicles, it makes all other sets look stupid |
15:04 | <frosch123> | it's all about identifying mis-features and turning them into something better |
15:05 | * | andythenorth tries nuts |
15:08 | * | andythenorth considers playing new canset release |
15:10 | <andythenorth> | frosch123: what was the misfeature in the case above? :) |
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15:15 | <frosch123> | generations of wagons with different lengths |
15:15 | <frosch123> | which make autoreplace a pain |
15:15 | <frosch123> | not in nuts |
15:17 | <andythenorth> | autoreplace is a misfeature |
15:17 | <andythenorth> | real men replace their own toy trains |
15:17 | -!- | pasky [pasky@nikam.ms.mff.cuni.cz] has joined #openttd |
15:18 | <pasky> | Hi! I have a bank with cargo station and a train station nearby; I want to use trucks to bring valuables from train station to bank and back, however this doesn't seem to work since the trucks will happily load back the valuables they just unloaded for transfer; is this scenario supposed to work with current codebase? what's the trick? |
15:18 | <FLHerne> | andythenorth/frosch123: did you see the template-replacement patch on the forums? |
15:18 | <andythenorth> | consists and crap? |
15:18 | <frosch123> | pasky: use two stations |
15:18 | <andythenorth> | meh :) |
15:19 | <frosch123> | order vehicle to unload only or load only |
15:19 | <FLHerne> | pasky: http://wiki.openttd.org/Two-way_feeder_service |
15:19 | <pasky> | frosch123: hmm, i don't think that would work either, but i'll check FLHerne's link first :) |
15:19 | <pasky> | FLHerne: thanks |
15:19 | <FLHerne> | Or CargoDist, of course :P |
15:19 | <frosch123> | FLHerne: yes, ofc. we discussed such feature since at least 200u8 |
15:19 | <andythenorth> | I think it's a misfeature |
15:20 | <FLHerne> | That patch seems to be rather buggy though, sadly :-( |
15:20 | <andythenorth> | if you're only playing 30 years, you don't need consists |
15:20 | <FLHerne> | Works enough to be useful, though |
15:20 | * | andythenorth proposes everyone must play the way andythenorth dictates |
15:20 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
15:20 | <andythenorth> | if games last, 30 years I can make FIRS smaller |
15:20 | <FLHerne> | andythenorth: Why would you want to play 30 years? Where's the fun? :P |
15:20 | <frosch123> | i thought you were bored about your style of play? :p |
15:20 | <andythenorth> | I am |
15:21 | * | FLHerne plays 1919 to 2012 normally |
15:21 | <andythenorth> | I keep starting in 1870 |
15:21 | <pasky> | hmm, is the two-way feeder service dependent just on timing? |
15:21 | <andythenorth> | then I watch boringly slow vehicles pottering around, with broken towns |
15:21 | <pasky> | ah never mind, i think i get it now |
15:21 | <andythenorth> | wondering how I'll ever get enough ships into FISH to cover pre-1950 :P |
15:21 | <andythenorth> | and being annoyed that I have no trucks |
15:21 | <andythenorth> | and that FIRS refuses to build industries |
15:22 | <pasky> | still, wouldn't a patch for this be trivial? at least for the simple case, "don't pick up cargo if you'd unload it at the originating station" |
15:22 | <FLHerne> | pasky: No. The idea is you have one station where RVs only unload an trains only load, and another for the opposite |
15:22 | <andythenorth> | two way feeder service is remarkably stupid |
15:22 | <pasky> | oh... well, there isn't really room for another train station :( |
15:22 | <andythenorth> | I wouldn't bother |
15:22 | <pasky> | i guess i'll get coding |
15:22 | <andythenorth> | pasky: you'll need to track cargo packets |
15:22 | <andythenorth> | enjoy ;) |
15:23 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
15:23 | <pasky> | but the game already knows originating station of each packet |
15:23 | * | andythenorth considers changing the goals for FISH |
15:23 | <pasky> | of course the naive approach won't work for complex multi-level feeder services |
15:23 | <FLHerne> | pasky: There was a reason that didn't work |
15:23 | * | FLHerne looks on the forums for it |
15:23 | <pasky> | but i think that doesn't preclude solving the simple case |
15:23 | <frosch123> | pasky: there is already such a patch somewhere which solves the case for a single hop feeder |
15:23 | <pasky> | is there a reason why it wasn't merged? |
15:24 | <frosch123> | i am sure there was |
15:26 | <@Alberth> | pasky: with 3 stations you can have cargo traveling in circles |
15:26 | <frosch123> | most likely because it already fails with 3 stations, which i would consider the standard case |
15:26 | <frosch123> | of rv-aircraft-rv, and rv-ship-rv |
15:27 | <pasky> | Alberth: yes, but isn't it better to solve at least the simple case now? |
15:27 | <frosch123> | no, i just adds useless bloat |
15:27 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
15:28 | <pasky> | well it's not useless when it solves an issue |
15:28 | <andythenorth> | first we need to make everything cargo, then we could fix feeders |
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15:28 | <frosch123> | pasky: who uses two-hop feeders without using three-hop feeders? |
15:28 | <pasky> | me :) |
15:28 | <andythenorth> | patch locally :) |
15:28 | -!- | telanus1 [~telanus@196-215-173-106.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] |
15:29 | <pasky> | sure, but why not help others too while at it |
15:29 | <FLHerne> | pasky: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=61448&p=1031379&hilit=+transfer#p1031353 |
15:29 | <FLHerne> | That was why the simplistic cargo tagging didn't work |
15:29 | <FLHerne> | See rest of thread too, in fact |
15:29 | <frosch123> | maybe we try to help patchpacks to get a userbase :p |
15:33 | <@Alberth> | pasky: no, because it takes less than a week before we get complaints that a slightly more advanced case fails. Since the patch has no grow path to the full solution, it is just wasted effort, and creates more corner cases, and even gets in the way once you add a proper solution |
15:33 | <pasky> | FLHerne: thanks, that's helpful for showing pitfalls a more proper solution must avoid |
15:34 | <@Alberth> | frosch123: let's start our own patchpack :p |
15:34 | <pasky> | Alberth: hm, i don't really agree with most of that but i agree with the last point, that's right... |
15:35 | <frosch123> | Alberth: do we have any central goal in our patch? |
15:35 | <@Alberth> | does it need one? |
15:36 | <@Alberth> | we can have one if you like |
15:36 | <@Alberth> | as much as possible users? |
15:36 | <frosch123> | or as much as possible developers? |
15:36 | <@Alberth> | as much as possible patches? |
15:37 | <frosch123> | yeah, in number of patches independent of loc |
15:37 | <frosch123> | that sounds nice :) |
15:37 | <frosch123> | but no cheating, no reverts |
15:38 | <@Alberth> | not needed with a patch queue :D |
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15:42 | <frosch123> | yeah, we should maintain the complete span between stable branches as a patch queue |
15:42 | <frosch123> | no trunk commits anymore |
15:42 | <andythenorth> | yay |
15:43 | * | andythenorth upgrades all outdated macports packages |
15:43 | <andythenorth> | this will end badly |
15:43 | * | andythenorth wants to fix python |
15:45 | <frosch123> | old movies are weird |
15:45 | <frosch123> | sometimes they really mess up their special effects |
15:45 | <frosch123> | when they could really make them way better with some trivial adjusting |
15:49 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
15:49 | <andythenorth> | it has been suggested that I reinstall my OS X to fix my python issues |
15:49 | <andythenorth> | I am not convinced that is wise |
15:50 | <frosch123> | install a virtual machine |
15:50 | <frosch123> | and just python inside that |
15:50 | <frosch123> | if that works you can trash you main os, and install a minimal os which only supports running vms |
15:51 | <andythenorth> | then I could run OS X in the VM :P |
15:51 | * | andythenorth trashes python |
15:51 | <frosch123> | haha, some things never change |
15:52 | <frosch123> | some pretty girls are only in a movie to get eaten alive in the third scene |
15:54 | <FLHerne> | andythenorth: Linux :D |
15:54 | <andythenorth> | then I could run OS X in a Linux VM |
15:55 | <FLHerne> | Why would you want OSX anyway? What advantage does it have? |
15:55 | * | FLHerne removed it from all his PPC Macs |
15:55 | <andythenorth> | it has the advantage that I don't have to relearn 'computer' |
15:55 | <andythenorth> | I don't like 'computer' |
15:55 | <andythenorth> | I don't want to spend time on 'computer' |
15:56 | <FLHerne> | Recabbage a Linux DE to behave mostly like OSX then :P |
15:56 | <andythenorth> | sounds like work |
15:57 | <FLHerne> | Use KDE, then you can change stuff to whatever makes sense to you :P |
15:58 | <FLHerne> | Unfortunately, that means no-one else can use my computer, but anyway... |
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15:58 | <frosch123> | don't switch to something which is heading for touchscreen-usability unless you have a touchscreen |
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15:59 | * | andythenorth suspects that having two versions of python 2.6 was silly anyway |
15:59 | <frosch123> | i think that is the most important rule nowadays |
15:59 | <FLHerne> | Mint, with KDE, then :D |
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16:00 | <FLHerne> | Maya KDE RC1 is finally out, which is good |
16:00 | <andythenorth> | maybe I should blitz setuptools |
16:01 | <andythenorth> | maybe I should just do this on python 2.7 :P |
16:04 | <Zuu> | maybe I should fire up visual studio and fix the coding style issue of my patch |
16:05 | <Zuu> | though the problem to be fixed can easily be fixed in the patch itself, it makes sense to change the source files and re-generate the patch :-) |
16:08 | <FLHerne> | andythenorth: Do the cranes etc on CHIPS tiles need such large bounding boxes? |
16:08 | <andythenorth> | not sure |
16:08 | <FLHerne> | Or are they just that shape for convenience? |
16:08 | <andythenorth> | not sure :) |
16:08 | <andythenorth> | didn't code them |
16:08 | <@Alberth> | Zuu: it does? I often pull patches from the queue, change the patch file, and re-apply :p |
16:09 | <FLHerne> | Ok. I'll assume "they don't but it doesn't matter" than :P |
16:09 | <andythenorth> | this has been puzzling me for two days now |
16:09 | <andythenorth> | http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1527/ |
16:09 | <Zuu> | Alberth: I tend to not touch the patch files other than sometimes grab them from .hg/.. instead of producing them on the fly. |
16:09 | <andythenorth> | I have also tried a new shell after the easy_install |
16:10 | <andythenorth> | I've reinstalled setuptools |
16:10 | <Zuu> | but I guess that makes sense as well to change the patch. |
16:10 | <andythenorth> | the 'reinstall OS X' solution will take me two days |
16:10 | <FLHerne> | andythenorth: Also, why does cranes.png have two identical lines, and one which entirely consists of transparency? |
16:11 | <FLHerne> | http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/chips/repository/entry/sprites/graphics/cranes.png |
16:11 | <+michi_cc> | andythenorth: I don't see any line where it says /System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.6/bin was added to PATH (and no line about copying/symlinking to /usr/bin or similar either) |
16:11 | <andythenorth> | FLHerne: no idea |
16:11 | <andythenorth> | michi_cc: I'll symlink |
16:12 | <@Alberth> | Zuu: it's a bit dangerous, as patch files are not version controlled |
16:12 | <FLHerne> | andythenorth: Did you not draw most of it? :P |
16:12 | <+michi_cc> | andythenorth: Mind you I've got no idea whether this is intended or not. |
16:12 | <andythenorth> | FLHerne: yes |
16:13 | <FLHerne> | andythenorth: And you still don't know why it's like that? :P |
16:13 | <andythenorth> | no |
16:14 | <FLHerne> | Ah well. I suppose I'll find out why when I break it :P |
16:14 | <andythenorth> | should this be executable in shell? /System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.6/bin/virtualenv |
16:14 | <andythenorth> | i.e. if I do $/System/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.6/bin/virtualenv |
16:15 | <andythenorth> | http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1528/ |
16:16 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
16:16 | <andythenorth> | so the package is missing |
16:17 | <andythenorth> | I have an egg for it in site-packages |
16:17 | <@Alberth> | the egg is just meta information iirc :) |
16:18 | <andythenorth> | contains a bunch of .py and other files |
16:21 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
16:21 | <andythenorth> | my path is exporting |
16:21 | <andythenorth> | my python is broken though :P |
16:22 | * | andythenorth blames setuptools :P |
16:23 | <@Alberth> | that's ok :) |
16:25 | <andythenorth> | some stuff works fine |
16:29 | <FLHerne> | andythenorth: Are non-track concrete slab platforms supposed to match the track ones? They don't :P |
16:29 | <andythenorth> | opengfx? |
16:30 | <FLHerne> | CHIPS :P |
16:30 | <andythenorth> | but which base set? |
16:30 | <FLHerne> | OGFX, yes |
16:30 | <FLHerne> | Ah, I see |
16:31 | <FLHerne> | So it uses the baseset tiles for the full-tile tiles? |
16:32 | * | FLHerne needs a thesaurus |
16:34 | <@Alberth> | goof night |
16:34 | <@Alberth> | s/f/d/ |
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16:38 | <Wolf01> | hello |
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16:47 | <CornishPasty> | Wow, uppercase hostname, how quaint! |
16:48 | <frosch123> | sorry, but you are only the third one to notice |
16:50 | <andythenorth> | ha ha |
16:51 | <andythenorth> | I've totally broken my local newgrf environment now too |
16:51 | <andythenorth> | hg is broken |
16:51 | <andythenorth> | among other things |
16:51 | <frosch123> | sounds like it was intentional : |
16:51 | <frosch123> | p |
16:52 | <andythenorth> | you can only rm so many things before stuff breaks :P |
16:52 | <frosch123> | yeah, you should not try to reboot |
16:52 | <frosch123> | better get a small generator so you do not suffer from power outage |
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16:58 | <andythenorth> | yay |
16:58 | <andythenorth> | stack overflow is all our friends |
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17:07 | * | andythenorth ponders using nml in virtualenv with bootstrap |
17:07 | <andythenorth> | also BANDIT, FISH :P |
17:08 | <andythenorth> | oh |
17:09 | <andythenorth> | the author says that's a bad idea |
17:12 | <FLHerne> | andythenorth: Do you think all the rotations for cranes, forklifts etc are needed for CHIPS objects? |
17:13 | * | FLHerne tries to decide how to categorise them |
17:13 | <andythenorth> | you could randomise them |
17:13 | <andythenorth> | I think that's what CHIPS does |
17:13 | <andythenorth> | do objects have random? |
17:13 | <FLHerne> | They probably do, but that wouldn't be suitable |
17:14 | <FLHerne> | Eyecandy builders don't like random much :P |
17:14 | <andythenorth> | better give them all the angles then ;) |
17:14 | <FLHerne> | I suppose I could try that out |
17:15 | <FLHerne> | Worried about menu clutter though |
17:15 | <andythenorth> | pick the angles you like then |
17:15 | <andythenorth> | ;) |
17:15 | <andythenorth> | ship it and see who complains? |
17:15 | <FLHerne> | I'll try both and see which works for me |
17:18 | <frosch123> | night |
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17:19 | <andythenorth> | bye |
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17:33 | <@Terkhen> | good night |
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18:08 | <Wolf01> | 'night |
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--- | Log | closed Fri Jul 13 00:00:06 2012 |