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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-07-13

---Logopened Fri Jul 13 00:00:06 2012
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02:38<@Terkhen>good morning
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03:19<dihedral>morning, Terkhen, and planetmaker
03:21<@Terkhen>hi :)
03:24-!-Alberth [~hat3@2001:980:272e:1:21a:92ff:fe55:fc8d] has joined #openttd
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03:28<dihedral>greetings Alberth
03:28<@Alberth>moin dihedral
03:28<NGC3982>did anyone of you read abbott's flatland while in school? :)
03:29<NGC3982>it's certainly the first book that comes to mind when playing ttd..
03:32*Alberth invents bridges for NGC3982
03:34<@Alberth>hmm, can you disable bridges and tunnels? that could be an interesting twist :)
03:37<@Alberth>wow, so many published versions :)
03:41<NGC3982>Alberth: hehe, sure.
03:41<NGC3982>a 64*64 game with no signals, no bridges or tunnels
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03:58<@Alberth>sounds like a truck game :p
04:03<NGC3982>..and no roads!
04:07<NGC3982>im exploring the possibility to run a no-time server game
04:07<NGC3982>where time does pass, but the years does not progress.
04:08<@Terkhen>you can increase the cost of bridges, I'm not sure about tunnels
04:08<dihedral><Alberth> hmm, can you disable bridges and tunnels? <- ouch :-D
04:09<NGC3982>it sounds grf-makeable?
04:09<NGC3982>at least the bridge-cost.
04:09<@Alberth>bridges do I think, just make them at most 2 tiles long
04:10<@Alberth>which is not entirely disabling, but useless enough :p
04:10<@Alberth>I don't know what you can do with tunnels in newgrf
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04:20<@planetmaker>tunnels are not newgrf-able except the looks
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04:23<@Terkhen>true, you can set them to useless lenghts
04:24<Eddi|zuHause>why not allow "tunnel types" the same as bridgetypes? (with looks, length, speedlimit, etc.)
04:24<Eddi|zuHause>internally they're the same anyway
04:24<@Terkhen>I suppose that the settings do not allow 0, though
04:25<@Terkhen>Eddi|zuHause: and air drag modifiers
04:26<Eddi|zuHause>bridges also have an introduction year
04:27<@Alberth>not needed for tunnels as long tunnels cost too much in the beginning :)
04:29<Eddi|zuHause>cost is a really bad balancing method in this game :p
04:31<NGC3982>so, tunnels are 'un-prohibitable' in that sence?
04:34<@Alberth>make it at sea level, and forbid terra forming :)
04:34<@Terkhen>I don't remember a tunnel basecost
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04:41<Hirundo>Terkhen: there certainly is one
04:41<@Terkhen>ok :)
04:42<@Terkhen>then it is possible to "forbid" tunnels that way
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04:47<@peter1138>It is only me.
04:47<@peter1138>There is no need for the lavish celebrations.
04:47<NGC3982>celebrations of what?
04:48<@peter1138>My arrival.
04:48<NGC3982>ah, i see
04:48<@Terkhen>hi peter1138
04:53<@Alberth>I am sorry, but your manager failed to inform us of your intention to arrive here at this hour. Had we known, we would have given you a more warm welcome.
04:53<@Alberth>None the less, welcome to our humble establishment, I hope you have a pleasant stay here.
04:54<@peter1138>You see, I have just stated that such action is unnecessary at this current time.
04:54*NGC3982 hastes making a cake
04:55<@peter1138>Cakes, and indeed other perishable foodstuffs, can be purchased for very reasonable prices from your local supermarket.
04:56<NGC3982>dont you dismantle the soul of NGC made cake ;_;.
04:56*NGC3982 makes a cake for his employees all the time
04:56<NGC3982>it's a fun way of celebrating non-relevant dates and stuff.
04:57<NGC3982>at towel day.
04:57<@peter1138>Please refer to for explicit examples on what to avoid when making a cake at home.
04:57<NGC3982>at the swedish "teeth brushing" day.
04:57<Eddi|zuHause>you brush your teeth once a year?
04:58<NGC3982>at the international chocolate day
04:58<@peter1138>NGC3982, I wish to employ you.
04:58<@Alberth>NGC3982: do you have enough days in a year?
04:58*NGC3982 is usually the employer.
04:58<Markk>Eddi|zuHause: NGC3982 does.
04:59<NGC3982>for instance, i could have made a cake so celebrate lots of stuff today
04:59<NGC3982>the coronation of alexander the third
04:59<Markk>Do you want to make your employees fat?
04:59<NGC3982>or the treaty of berlin
04:59<NGC3982>Markk: indeed.
04:59<NGC3982>i want them stuck in their chairs.
05:01<NGC3982>actually, in an empirical fashion - cakes is a great loyality-increase per currency spent.
05:01<NGC3982>i actually believe i can measure it statisticly.
05:01<NGC3982>removing the coffee machine made a 15% change in sale statistics, for instance.
05:01*NGC3982 loves call center data management.
05:03<NGC3982>Markk: did you install supreme commander?
05:03<NGC3982>i havent tried it yet.
05:03<Markk>I had stuff to do last night.
05:04<NGC3982>i know
05:04<NGC3982>i didnt really wait
05:04<NGC3982>it was just fun to antagonize you :p
05:06<Markk>Yes, I noticed that.
05:06<Markk>I get a notice in my phone ever time someone hilights me.
05:06<NGC3982>oh, haha.
05:06<Markk>(But with a spamfilter, so no more than once a minute)
05:06*NGC3982 plans a devious script.
05:13<@peter1138>1440 notices a day...
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05:15<@Terkhen>now I want cake
05:15<@Terkhen>thank yoy
05:15<@Terkhen>hi FLHerne
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05:17<FLHerne>hi :-)
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05:55<Eddi|zuHause>why is it whenever i play a "random" culture in widelands, i get imperium?
06:01<__ln__>zomg, there are cultures in ottd now
06:05<@Terkhen>Eddi|zuHause: will I lose much time of my life if I try that game?
06:05<Eddi|zuHause>if you liked settlers, possibly :)
06:08<@Terkhen>I never tried it :P
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---Logclosed Fri Jul 13 10:23:12 2012
---Logopened Fri Jul 13 10:27:13 2012
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10:27-!-Irssi: #openttd: Total of 118 nicks [9 ops, 0 halfops, 3 voices, 106 normal]
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10:35*Alberth adds a few trains to the channel
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11:18<Bolsiq>i didnt expect so many people here ;)
11:19<@Alberth>it's awfully quiet for that many people :)
11:19<@Alberth>if you'd put them all in one physical room, they'd make a lot more noise :)
11:21<Bolsiq>or they would kill each other ;)
11:21<@planetmaker>we tested with a small sub-sample. Nothing of that sort happend. Rather pie eating
11:22<@Alberth>Bolsiq: nah, OpenTTD is a family friendly game, no need to carry weapons here
11:22<@planetmaker>except our fighter plane and attack helicopter ;-)
11:23<V453000>he didnt say anybody kills anyone with weapons? :)
11:23<@Alberth>planetmaker: ssshhhttt ! don't tell about our backup :p
11:23<Bolsiq>you can destroy cars usign trains ;)
11:24<@Alberth>I'd be destroying my own road vehicles, that's not smart as tycoon :)
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11:30<Bolsiq>freerct lol
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12:55*Rubidium wonders whether freerct has 'security checkpoints' at the entrance of the park
13:00<@planetmaker>they probably have land-air-missile launch sites ;-)
13:02<@planetmaker>and marines at the checkpoints, of course
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13:08<andythenorth>shall we fix rivers?
13:09<@planetmaker>fix as in...?
13:09<andythenorth>1. replace river if bulldozed
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13:10<andythenorth>2. measure length of river when constructing (pathfinder probly knows); divide by 5 to get n tiles; from first coast tile, work backwards for n tiles, making river wider
13:10<andythenorth>creates deltas
13:10<andythenorth>Alberth had ideas for 1 maybe?
13:14*andythenorth ponders redrawing everything for 2x zoom
13:14<andythenorth>due to bad eyes
13:14<andythenorth>but then my eyes will be screwed by drawing :P
13:14<andythenorth>then I'll need 4x zoom :P
13:19<@Terkhen>it would probably be simpler to disable bulldozing rivers completely
13:19<@Terkhen>as Yet Another Setting
13:20<andythenorth>it would break overbuilding with canals
13:20<andythenorth>but that's broken anyway :P
13:20<andythenorth>stupidly expensive to overbuild river with canal
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13:30<FLHerne>Can NML do macros?
13:32<FLHerne>If so, how? If not, how do I define multiple near-identical spritelayout/switch/item blocks?
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13:34<andythenorth>you can do spriteset templates
13:34<andythenorth>but not macros
13:34<andythenorth>what languages do you know / line?
13:34<andythenorth>like /s
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13:35<FLHerne>Various kinds of BASIC, a little C. Not a serious programmer :P
13:36<andythenorth>you can use the c-pre-processor
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13:36<FLHerne>I tried to put spritelayout blocks in templates, but it didn't work :-(
13:36<andythenorth>if you use CPP, you will get support here
13:36<andythenorth>depending on who is in channel
13:37<FLHerne>I'll try that then
13:37<andythenorth>if the people who can help are not here, you may get laughed at and told you are using the wrong tool
13:37<andythenorth>I would use python, but you'd have to learn new things
13:37<@Terkhen>besides that, you can also use the openttdcoop devzone makefile framework, which has support for CPP
13:38<@Terkhen>or patiently wait for this to be implemented:
13:39<andythenorth>or do this
13:39<andythenorth>templating with python is insanely easy, but seems to have a fear factor
13:39<FLHerne>So at least I haven't created an entirely unnecessary problem for myself :P
13:39<FLHerne>If someone's already considered it, there must be some valid reason to encounter it :D
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13:40<andythenorth>FIRS and OpenGFC extras are templated with CPP
13:40<andythenorth>BANDIT and FISH are python
13:40<andythenorth>CETS is a different sort of python
13:46<CIA-4>OpenTTD: translators * r24397 /trunk/src/lang/ (4 files):
13:46<CIA-4>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<CIA-4>OpenTTD: korean - 11 changes by telk5093
13:46<CIA-4>OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 96 changes by Tucalipe
13:46<CIA-4>OpenTTD: spanish - 1 changes by Terkhen
13:46<CIA-4>OpenTTD: vietnamese - 1 changes by nglekhoi
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13:51<@Alberth>FLHerne: alternatively, you can extend NML to have template support :p
13:51<@Alberth>Rubidium: freerct has no gates at all, currently
13:51<@Alberth>andythenorth: I agree with Terkhen, make them non-deletable
13:53<andythenorth>so how to handle canals case?
13:54<andythenorth>no locks?
13:54<@Terkhen>nothing could be built over rivers
13:55<@Alberth>river and canal are both water, I fail to see a problem in keeping rivers, tbh
13:56<andythenorth>no bulldoze = no lock building
13:56<TWerkhoven>would that also prohibit terraforming if it affects a river-tile?
13:56<andythenorth>no lock building = no river transport
13:56<andythenorth>otherwise I'm +1
13:57<@Alberth>how is bulldoze == lock building?
13:57*andythenorth should read the code
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13:58<@Alberth>maybe the code is wrong :)
13:58<@Alberth>hi frosch
13:58<andythenorth>building a lock on river costs (destruction cost + lock cost) so I assume it calls some destruction related stuff
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13:58*andythenorth didn't check ;)
13:59<andythenorth>my point being only, we might need to special case / fix locks
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13:59<@Alberth>I would expect so, you'd need to check for water being a river somewhere
14:02<andythenorth>FLHerne: templating repeating code with the python built-in templater is trivial, I am reading my own tutorial to remember how :P
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14:17<pasky>hmm, I'm trying to play with ECS but it's a bit painful since it requires building huge swathes of supply chains pretty much at once - is that just how it is or is there any trick to it?
14:17<andythenorth>use cheats
14:18*andythenorth is being silly
14:18<@Alberth>industries like sandpit provide cargo to start, don't they?
14:18<@Alberth>it has been several years since I last played ECS
14:22<andythenorth>what can I complain about today? :)
14:22<andythenorth>I fixed my python, so that's no good for complaints
14:22<@Alberth>you mentioned rivers already too
14:23<@Alberth>do you have thoughts about the pyramid thingie?
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14:26<andythenorth>I will later
14:26<andythenorth>when I've written more code
14:26<andythenorth>it's a silly pointless project though :)
14:27<pasky>Alberth: yes, in the beginning, getting money is fine with small circuits like coal or sand + coal; but once one wants to involve factories, many things must come together at once... but i just figured that i should start by doing multiple circuits of different raw materials and grow from there up instead of looking at a factory and trying to satisfy its dependencies
14:27<@Alberth>pasky: ok, I never got that far
14:30<andythenorth>Alberth: I'm considering I can 'just' provide a browser view on the app that renders the grf, then pushes it back out as a tar :P
14:30<andythenorth>via the browser
14:30<andythenorth>kind of silly
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14:49<@Alberth>tbh, I still don't understand how you connect a browserto the configuration process, but maybe that's just me
14:49<andythenorth>tbh, it's probably just me :P
14:50<andythenorth>I'm not even sure that editing config data in the browser is easier than editing in text editor
14:52<@Alberth>depends on the data and the editor :p
14:57*andythenorth has learnt some things about SSD failure rates and is backing up
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15:07<@Belugas>#Old man take a look at my life
15:08<@Belugas>#I'm a lot like you were
15:10<andythenorth>and the silver spoon
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15:43<andythenorth>"Welcome to Pyramid. Sorry for the convenience." :P
15:48<@Alberth>it seems pretty simple for making a website
15:49<@Alberth>within certain boundaries probably
15:49<andythenorth>I just discovered this buildout on github, which simplified install
15:51*andythenorth considers for bed
15:51<FLHerne>andythenorth: I sent you a very incomplete CHIPS-object grf. Thanks to you and Alberth for prompting me into trying to be productive :D
15:52<andythenorth>did you try templating? ;)
15:52<FLHerne>I did, but failed :-( Maybe tomorrow
15:53<andythenorth>how do I find objects in game?
15:53<@Alberth>look carefully :)
15:54<FLHerne>Just realised they need a flag to allow overbuilding
15:54<andythenorth>objects don't overbuild? :o
15:54<FLHerne>Which is the correct order of comments there?
15:54<andythenorth>ok, so they build on corner-coasts, I see why you want them
15:54<andythenorth>FLHerne: ignore overbuilding comment from me, I didn't know if was a flag
15:55<andythenorth>what do the new object gui buttons do?
15:55<andythenorth>there's a grid of 4 below the list
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15:56<FLHerne>andythenorth: You can build bridges over them, too :-)
15:56<FLHerne>Also, which buttons?
15:57<andythenorth>they look like they might select orientations or such
15:57<andythenorth>selecting one changes the available objects
15:57*andythenorth fails to understand new objects tbh
15:57<andythenorth>but this grf looks nice ;)
15:59<FLHerne>They should be orientations
15:59<FLHerne>But different orientations of flat tiles look the same anyway
16:00<FLHerne>Added overbuilding flag now :-)
16:08*andythenorth -> bed
16:08<andythenorth>good night
16:12<@Terkhen>good night andythenorth
16:13<@Alberth>good night andy
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16:28<Supercheese>Oooh, CHIPS tiles as objects? Very much want
16:32<FLHerne>Not finished yet :P
16:33<Supercheese>Need any coding help? Menial tasks you want to outsource to a cheap laborer? :P
16:36<FLHerne>I'm still figuring out how to do the menial tasks :P
16:36<FLHerne>Seems an easy first grf :-)
16:48<@Terkhen>good night
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16:53<Chris_Booth>fuck me, how are you?
17:07<dihedral>no thank you - but i am well :-D
17:08<Chris_Booth>not in that way Mr dihedral
17:09<Chris_Booth>have you been hiding from the openttd world?
17:09<dihedral>i have been very busy
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17:10<Chris_Booth>nice to hear, last 18 months have been the same for me sadly
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17:23<Supercheese>So, I'm wanting to start up a non-OTTD-related project on Google Code; I've never used any version control system before, and Subversion, Mercurial, and Git are offered. Which should I choose?
17:24<Supercheese>That's one vote for Git
17:25<Supercheese>One for mercurial...
17:25<dihedral>and that will not work ;-)
17:25<dihedral>asking us what we prefer
17:25<Chris_Booth>dude Git has way more support for novice developers
17:26<dihedral>you will get one opinion more than active people in this channel ... at least
17:26<dihedral>hg and git are very similar
17:27<+glx>but on windows hg works better
17:27<dihedral>glx, still? as far as i could say, git works ok now under windows, too
17:27*Chris_Booth is not sure
17:28<Chris_Booth>I also suggest investing in a Mac
17:28<+glx>last time I tried it worked but was very slow
17:28<Supercheese>I do not want any Apple computer, thanks
17:28<Nat_aS>screw apple
17:29<Supercheese>^ that, more or less
17:29<Nat_aS>remember when they were the heroic underdogs?
17:29*Chris_Booth hide from that haters
17:29<Nat_aS>now they are just professional patent trolls.
17:30<Chris_Booth>now they make the most ruggid laptops
17:30<Supercheese>Oh, well there's a page on Google code itself "ChoosingAVersionControlSystem"
17:30<Supercheese>Wasn't well advertised
17:31<Nat_aS>I'm pretty sure Panasonic's toughbooks are the most rugged.
17:31<FLHerne>They always made the best laptops :P
17:31<Nat_aS>but if you are talking form an average consumer standpoint
17:31<Nat_aS>I will admit there aluminum shells are quite snazzy
17:31<Nat_aS>even if it jacks up the price
17:31*FLHerne has working Apple laptops from 1994 to 2005 :P
17:31<FLHerne>They just don't break :-)
17:32<+glx>the battery is dead way before ;)
17:32<+glx>(and it's not replacable)
17:32<Nat_aS>I'm currently using an Asus G1 from 2007
17:32<Nat_aS>which is absoltly broken
17:32<Nat_aS>absolutely even
17:33<Nat_aS>but it's cheaper, and has more power than a comparable machine from the same year by apple
17:33<FLHerne>glx: It's replaceable on all the ones I have...
17:33<Nat_aS>and that's what's important.
17:33<Nat_aS>you can pay for aluminum, I'll spend my money on an actual computer.
17:34<+glx>FLHerne: you're lucky :)
17:34<FLHerne>Nat_aS: Depends, really. They cost more, but last longer. My G4 still outperforms some modern netbooks :D
17:35<Nat_aS>the definition of some includes shitty HPs
17:35<FLHerne>Nat_aS: All but the fancy AMD Fusion/Dual-core Atom ones
17:35<+glx>now apple tends to use glue everywhere
17:35<Nat_aS>I buy a new laptop every few years to stay up to date.
17:35<FLHerne>glx: Only the Airs and retina MBP are non-replaceable, IIRC?
17:35<Supercheese>Nice, 5GB hosting free
17:36<+glx>FLHerne: yes but as users seems to like those, the next ones will be similar
17:37<FLHerne>glx: Unfortunately so. I haven't bought an Intel Mac yet, and I don't intend to... :-(
17:38<Nat_aS>anyways, having Apple software tied to the hardware removes any value from it
17:39<Nat_aS>it dosn't matter how sturdy it is, it will allways be a mac
17:39<FLHerne>From the software or hardware?
17:39<FLHerne>Windows and Linux will both run fine on modern Macs :D
17:39<FLHerne>Linux > OSX, definitely
17:40<Nat_aS>I know that, but it's still only designed to work with apple hardware
17:40<Nat_aS>whereas PCs are 100% modular and interchangeable.
17:40<Nat_aS>you can build a PC in a cave with a box of scraps
17:40<FLHerne>PC laptops aren't normally, though
17:40<FLHerne>RAM and harddrive, but then that applies to most Apple ones too
17:41<Nat_aS>you do have a fair point
17:41<Nat_aS>but I'm still opposed to apple for reasons unrelated to there snazzy aluminum notebooks.
17:41<+glx>well Apple now solder RAM directly on motherboard
17:41<Nat_aS>and I like being able to right click without having to attach a USB mouse :P
17:41<Nat_aS>they do?
17:42<FLHerne>Too much emphasis on 'thin' :-(
17:42<Nat_aS>things being soddered directly onto the motherboard and then breaking requiring the whole thing to be replaced, is responsible for most laptop repairs for me
17:42<Nat_aS>I don't know how they earn a profit if the whole motherborad gets replaced once a waranty cycle for me
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17:43<FLHerne>I'd be happy to buy a 2" thick laptop if it had a huge battery and standardised hardware :-)
17:43<Nat_aS>and yeah, thin is Ehh
17:43<FLHerne>No-one sells them, though :-(
17:43<+glx>they don't replace the motherboard, they give you a new laptop
17:43<Nat_aS>Small is nice, but if things are too thin, they become impractical
17:43<Nat_aS>like my Android phone is wider at the top because of the antenna
17:44<Nat_aS>the rest of the phone could be wider, but they just wanted it to be as thin as possible
17:44<Nat_aS>but that means if it's laying flat, it's leaning away from you
17:44<Nat_aS>which is silly
17:44<FLHerne>My PB1400 has hot-swappable floppy/zip/CD/battery/pen drawer, you can't get that any more either :P
17:45<Nat_aS>i hate optical media so much
17:45<Nat_aS>although laptops need more USB slots
17:45<Nat_aS>why is the standard now three
17:45<Nat_aS>my G1 had 4!
17:45<Nat_aS>I want a laptop with 6 slots dammit!
17:45<+glx>laptops often miss firewire too
17:46<Nat_aS>I'd rather have lots of ports than an optical drive
17:46<Supercheese>I don't think I've ever used firewire...
17:46<Nat_aS>because then I can attatch an optical drive with one of them
17:46<FLHerne>At least modern laptops have them... Who thought SCSI was a good idea for external connections on a laptop!? :o
17:46<Nat_aS>optical drives are moving parts, which is bad for a portable device
17:47<Nat_aS>I mean modern Hard drives are safe enough, but optical drives are still bulky and noisy
17:47*FLHerne goes to bed
17:47<dihedral><glx> last time I tried it worked but was very slow <- it was not a repository on a network share, was it? :-P
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17:48<TWerkhoven>replace the optical drive with an extra hdd
17:48<dihedral>and run raid 1?
17:48<TWerkhoven>or 0
17:48<TWerkhoven>if your feeling adventurous
17:48<TWerkhoven>or just loads of storage
17:49<dihedral>TWerkhoven, raid 0 is the biggest crap ever!
17:49<dihedral>wrt. raid :-P
17:49<Nat_aS>when the waranty on my Vaio runs off I'll do that
17:49<TWerkhoven>i am aware
17:49<Nat_aS>maybe even an SSD
17:49<dihedral>i thought you might be :-D
17:49<Nat_aS>one thing i don't like is how big it is
17:49<TWerkhoven>not much redundant about it
17:50<Nat_aS>I mean i like it when I sit down and have a numpad and wide screen
17:50<Nat_aS>but I don't like it when I can't fit it in my backpack
17:50<Nat_aS>oh well, my phone is faster than some laptops now
17:50<Nat_aS>and I have my shitty netbook
17:50<dihedral>i'd only go with ssd in a laptop currently
17:51<Nat_aS>well it will be a while before I'm ready for a new computer, esp after getting this phone
17:51<dihedral>i dislike too many turning things and noisy things in laptops
17:51<Nat_aS>but I'm not sure what the peremeters will be
17:51<Nat_aS>maybe no moving parts though
17:51<Nat_aS>(well discounting the fan)
17:51<Nat_aS>or maybe I'll try building a PC
17:52<Nat_aS>I have no use for optical media though
17:52<Nat_aS>I pirate all my movies and music, and get all my games from Steam
17:52<Nat_aS>I only use disks for booting shit when things break
17:52<Nat_aS>and I try a USB key first
17:53<TWerkhoven>sounds familiar
17:53<TWerkhoven>saves a lot of hassle with a cheap cd/dvd-r
17:54<TWerkhoven>and drives not being able to read em
17:54<Nat_aS>I want to see optical media die
17:54<dihedral>i do not even have an optical drive
17:54<Nat_aS>I wish Steve jobs had tried to kill it the same way he did with Floppies. flash on mobile devices, and right clicking
17:54<Nat_aS>i mean the air dosn't have a optical drive
17:55<Nat_aS>no do iThings
17:55<Nat_aS>but if he didn't put those neat little slot loaders on everything
17:55<Nat_aS>he could have pushed completly digital distribution
17:55<Nat_aS>and people would have eaten it up
17:55<Nat_aS>and now he's dead so he can't influence markets through sheer charisma.
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18:54<Wolf01>'night all
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---Logclosed Sat Jul 14 00:00:12 2012