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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-07-14

---Logopened Sat Jul 14 00:00:12 2012
00:01<Svenska>hi. i just had an idea while travelling some time ago: when the train broke down, it was connected to the following train and both went together until the broken train was taken out of service some stops later
00:02<Svenska>can multiheaded trains get less (or less severe) breakdowns? i think the chance of complete breakdown completely is head1*head2... and if one head breaks down, the train is slower
00:04<Svenska>so in gameplay there's at least a possibility to have breakdowns not tear down your whole network in worst case
00:06<Svenska>what do you think?
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01:42<@Terkhen>good morning
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03:00<@Alberth>hi hi
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03:25<dihedral>good morning
03:30<@planetmaker>moin
03:32-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@95.232.234.29] has joined #openttd
03:32<Wolf01>hello o/
03:52<Supercheese>Heh, I've just started using TortoiseSVN for a personal, non-OTTD project I'm working on, and importing all the files to start is going to take forever, as I have about 500MB worth
03:52<Supercheese>Not sure if it's my upload speed that's limiting things, or what
03:53<Supercheese>The poor upload window keeps Not Responding, even though it still keeps uploading
03:54<Wolf01>versioning systems give their best for the code, not for the assets
03:56<@Alberth>Supercheese: it copies the entire project history
03:56<@Alberth>moin Wolf01
03:56-!-Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #openttd
03:57<@Alberth>Supercheese: oh, sorry, SVN. that just copies the current working copy
03:57-!-Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
03:58*Alberth thinks too much Mercurial
03:58<Supercheese>I've never used any version control stuff before, but it seems straightforward enough
03:58<Supercheese>especially since I'm the sole developer
03:58<@Alberth>SVN is sort of useless unless you have commit access
03:59<Supercheese>I started a project at Google code, free hosting ftw
03:59<@Alberth>yeah, FreeRCT is there too :)
04:00<@Alberth>it's probably the network that is slow
04:01<Supercheese>Hmm, issue tracker doesn't seem to have a category for "Feature being worked on"
04:01<Supercheese>or "Feature request"
04:01<@planetmaker>Supercheese: if you've never used any vcs you might be better of starting with hg or git
04:01<Supercheese>guess ya gotta make those custom?
04:01<@Alberth>you can add new fields
04:01<@Alberth>planetmaker: why?
04:01<Supercheese>Already chose Subversion
04:02<@Alberth>basically, you're missing patch queues, which are nice to order your commits
04:03<@planetmaker>Alberth: I think they offer more potential and easier sharing (if you - maybe later - care to)
04:04<Supercheese>Well, I'm not developing a program per se, but rather a series of configuration files to be loaded by another program
04:04<@planetmaker>and imho also easier to locally follow through an idea and throw it away
04:04<Supercheese>Also I do not expect any other folk to work on this, just me
04:04<dihedral>Supercheese, hg and git allow committing and branching and tagging without a connection to the server, and you can push changes later on
04:04<dihedral>which is useful if you are on the go, e.g.
04:04<@Alberth>planetmaker: true, hg is more flexible in that aspect
04:04<@planetmaker>Supercheese: dvcs already is easier if you work on different machines
04:05<dihedral>planetmaker, constant tar snapshots :-D
04:05<Supercheese>Yeah, it's the Baskin Robbins syndrome, too many choices
04:05<@planetmaker>:-)
04:05<dihedral>Supercheese, learn hg - you'll enjoy it
04:05<Supercheese>hg - mercurial?
04:05<dihedral>rather than learning svn and then needing to switch to hg later on :-D
04:05<Supercheese>=*
04:05<dihedral>Supercheese, aye
04:05<@planetmaker>yes. hg is mercurial
04:05<Supercheese>Hmm
04:06<dihedral>and if you know hg you know a lot about git also
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04:06<@Alberth>dihedral: except how to work with it, as they changed the meaning of all commands :)
04:07<@planetmaker>quite :-)
04:07<Supercheese>Well, guess I should switch to mercurial while I haven't yet started
04:07<@Alberth>Supercheese: You can import an SVN repository into hg (or git iirc), so switching can be done later
04:07<Supercheese>Ah, well I won't cancel the upload
04:07<@planetmaker>Supercheese: there's also a tortoiseHG
04:07<Supercheese>Yes, I saw, git too IINM
04:08*Alberth nods
04:08*Supercheese wonders if anyone other than himself uses that acronym
04:08<@Alberth>Supercheese: the advantage of SVN is that it is terribly simple, at the cost of flexibility
04:08*planetmaker doesn't. What does it stand for?
04:08<Supercheese>If I'm Not Mistaken
04:09<Supercheese>fairly equivalent to IIRC
04:09<Supercheese>but that's too cliche :P
04:11<Supercheese>I've been developing this project for a few months, and I've discovered why folks invented revisioning way back when
04:11<Supercheese>"Crap, what did I change from this version to that?"
04:12<@planetmaker>haha :-) Yeah
04:12<Supercheese>among other questions
04:14<@planetmaker>the good thing is that commits basically come for free once you get the hang of it
04:14<@planetmaker>and you learn to appreciate plain text files in many contexts :-)
04:14<Supercheese>Presumably I just work on stuff and each time I change things and everything compiles nicely I choose commit
04:15<@Alberth>as well as 'revert' :) It is simple to do an experiment, and if it doesn't work, just revert to the last good state.
04:15<Supercheese>Fortunately, compiling this project takes at most 20 seconds
04:15<@planetmaker>:-) Yeah. Or update to the last working revision or so
04:16<Supercheese>Heh, "Files 1 - 100 of 7353"
04:16<Supercheese>That's a lot of "Next" button clicks
04:17<@planetmaker>uh... sounds like sucky gui
04:17<@planetmaker>I guess I only use the command line interface of vcs'
04:17<Supercheese>Eh, it's what Google gives ya
04:17<Supercheese>I don't plan on actually using that interface
04:17<dihedral>Alberth, a commit is still a commit, and a push is still a push
04:17<dihedral>same with pull, clone update
04:17<@planetmaker>15:55 planetmaker: as such one can work with 5 commands alone: clone, push, pull, diff and commit. And maybe log as 6th
04:18<@planetmaker>^^ that's all it needs imho to get started
04:18<dihedral>:-P
04:18<dihedral>i agree
04:18<@planetmaker>the rest is extra. Though sometimes very handy extra
04:18<dihedral>aye
04:18<@planetmaker>hm. I forgot up
04:18<@planetmaker>"up"
04:18<dihedral>but if you need extra, you are able to find out how 'extra' works
04:19<dihedral>planetmaker, up is that not an alias to update?
04:19<@Alberth>Supercheese: that's one way of doing commits. You'll find that sometimes you want to do a commit, but you are not exactly sure whether it is the right solution, as 3 commits further is the crucial point that may or may not go wrong. This is where patch queues come in.
04:19<@planetmaker>and no-one in #mercurial contradicted :-P
04:19<@planetmaker>dihedral: yes
04:19<dihedral>ah - you did not mention it
04:19<@Alberth>dihedral: false "git add" != "hg add"
04:19<dihedral>Alberth, oh realy?
04:19<@planetmaker>and... maybe add indeed :-P
04:20<@Alberth>dihedral: yep, this is the whole staging stuff of git
04:20<@planetmaker>so. 7 commands. clone, push, pull, diff, commit, add, update and maybe log and merge
04:20<@Alberth>git commits the file as it was on the git add, while hg commits the file as it is during commit
04:21<@planetmaker>uh. I was not aware of that difference
04:21<@Alberth>that's where the magic commit -a comes from
04:22<@planetmaker>in hg?
04:22*Supercheese is somewhat confused
04:22<@Alberth>planetmaker: in git
04:22<@planetmaker>Supercheese: don't let yourself be confused... details :-)
04:22<dihedral>Alberth, ok - but both add a file
04:22<@Alberth>Supercheese: no worries it's like a religion, my system is better than yours :)
04:22<@planetmaker>unimportant details for a starter
04:23<dihedral>so the difference is important if you change a file after adding it
04:23<dihedral>and before committing it
04:23<@Alberth>dihedral: you claimed they were equal :)
04:23*planetmaker does that. Quite often actually
04:23<dihedral>Alberth, the use of the commands hg and git are for a certain respect equal
04:24<dihedral>the implementation of the commands are most likely not
04:24<@planetmaker>the only real issue is that hg add != git add and similar in other equal looking commands
04:24<dihedral>hg add is still git add (even if a little but important difference in the file handling is there)
04:24<@Alberth>hg and git are mostly equal in functionality too
04:25<dihedral>and the storage engine is different
04:25<dihedral>but that does not mean that if i can use hg i could not use git
04:25<@Alberth>dihedral: but details is what makes the difference imho
04:25<@planetmaker>but the functionality of the programmes is approx. the same. They just call things differently
04:25<dihedral>as the commands i need to achive the same are still the same commands
04:25<@planetmaker>like both German and English are a language. Some words are similar, others not
04:25<Supercheese>"boot", for example
04:25<@planetmaker>or maybe rather German and Dutch. Fits better
04:25<Supercheese>l)
04:25<Supercheese>;) *
04:26<dihedral>Alberth, imo that is nitpicking
04:26<dihedral>to a beginner it is a minor difference
04:26<@planetmaker>dihedral: and you notice that Alberth nitpicks on purpose and you fall so well for the tease ;-)
04:26<dihedral>the basic meaning of the commands are the same
04:26<@Alberth>oh, you were talking about beginners. In that case, you are right
04:27<dihedral>grrr :-P
04:27*Supercheese is definitely a beginner
04:27*dihedral gives Albert a hug
04:27<dihedral>meany
04:27<dihedral>planetmaker, i only just got up ... an hour ago
04:28<Supercheese>Man, a server-side issue tracker is a thousand thousand times better than trying to remember stuff myself. "What was I planning to work on, again?"
04:28<@planetmaker>Supercheese: that's one of the reasons we setup the devzone ;-)
04:28<@planetmaker>hard to remember all the stuff
04:28<@Alberth>Supercheese: very true. Even better would be to have one in the repo itself, but I have not found one so far
04:28<Supercheese>no kidding
04:29<@planetmaker>and easier to recall what people said when stored in a somewhat central place
04:29<Supercheese>Well, Google has 'em side by side
04:29<Supercheese>at least for my purposes anyhow
04:29<@planetmaker>Alberth: what do you mean with "in the repo"? Like them being commits?
04:29<@Alberth>a distributed tracker
04:29<@planetmaker>in a special "issue_tracker" branch?
04:30<@planetmaker>I thought that to be handy, too. As currently it's quite separate things... and tracker history is thus easier lost :-(
04:30<@Alberth>there are some attempts, eg bugseverywhere
04:31<@Alberth>but they don't seem to work for hg :p
04:31<@Alberth>(I tried it, it didn't work in a blatantly obvious way, reported it, and they solved it by withdrawing hg support :P )
04:32<@Alberth>it also gives new problems, like having a separate program for it, that should figure out which project to use
04:33<@planetmaker>hm, let's ask #mercurial whether they know a solution :-)
04:38<@planetmaker>btw, dihedral: a short command comparison http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/GitConcepts#Command_equivalence_table
04:45<@Alberth>joy, pull and fetch have reversed meaning
04:45<@planetmaker>yeah :-)
04:45<@planetmaker>in order to avoid this complication I actually use hggit when I have to deal with git repos
04:46<@Alberth>I recently found 'eg', I have not tried it yet though
04:46<@planetmaker>what's that? (link)
04:48<@Alberth>"Git for mere mortals" http://www.gnome.org/~newren/eg/
04:49<@planetmaker>ah, thanks. /me reads
04:53<Wolf01>gah, I hate mixing date formats, especially php's strftime with classic date formats
04:53<@planetmaker>interesting read, Alberth
04:54<@Alberth>I installed it, but probably by the time I need to use git, I have forgotten all about it :p
04:54<@planetmaker>hehe. I fear that to be the case here, too
04:55<Wolf01>Thu 12-08-2012 21:09 instead of Thu 12-07-2012 21:08 %M is minutes not month, and %I is 12-hour format not minutes :P
04:56<@Alberth>be glad it doesn't change each time you start the program :p
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04:58<dihedral>Wolf01, %m is month
04:58<Wolf01>yes, I noticed that
04:58<dihedral>:-P
04:59<Wolf01>but for example, compare: http://php.net/manual/en/function.date.php with: http://php.net/manual/en/function.strftime.php
05:00<Wolf01>I'm used to the date() formats, but sometimes I need strftime() formats and I make a lot of confusion
05:00<Rubidium>wasn't there a massive rant about PHP somewhere?
05:00<Rubidium>IMHO PHP is like a patchpack
05:00-!-cmircea [~cmircea@86.123.42.12] has joined #openttd
05:01<Rubidium>everyone can add their bit without considering things important to some (like consistency and security)
05:02<Wolf01>yeah, I think that too, but since ther were talking about bug trackers, it come to my mind to change the date format of flyspray, it was something like d D M Y H:i instead of the other format (strftime)
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05:04<Wolf01>and in PHP there's an error due to misuse of :: which is written in Israelian
05:12<@Alberth>there are far bigger things wrong in php imho
05:15<Wolf01>working as a web developer I found it does have a lot^2 of inconsistencies
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05:18<@Alberth>do they have strings as native data type yet? (instead of the collection of C string functions)
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05:20<Wolf01>no, still strings as array of chars
05:21<@Alberth>joy, so useful in a language intended to manipulate and generate pieces of text :p
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05:23<cmircea>Wolf01, http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/
05:23<cmircea>Have fun.
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05:24<Wolf01>You pull out the hammer, but to your dismay, it has the claw part on both sides. hahaha
05:24<Wolf01>yeah, php it's really so
05:24<cmircea>Someone actually made a hammer.
05:24<cmircea>Like that.
05:24<cmircea>That is the best rant ever about a programming language. And it is all true.
05:25<Supercheese>Well, good night all
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05:27<@planetmaker>you mean... the php hammer? http://www.flickr.com/photos/raindrift/7095238893/in/set-72157629492908038/
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05:44<NGC3982>he
05:44<NGC3982>..hehe.
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06:27*andythenorth tries a game with new Canadian Set
06:32<andythenorth>bah
06:32<andythenorth>FIRS is broken
06:32<andythenorth>what good is a Canadian map with just 1 forest
06:32<andythenorth>stupid grf
06:33<Hirundo>should FIRS increase forest probability, if it detects presence of canadian grfs?
06:33<andythenorth>:D
06:33<andythenorth>probably not
06:33<andythenorth>I suspect the issue here is that I always forget how probability works
06:34<andythenorth>if I add some new industry types to the grf, I need to go and adjust probability for *every* other type
06:34<andythenorth>took me too long to work that out :P
06:34<Hirundo>why?
06:34<andythenorth>probabilities are relative
06:34<andythenorth>brb
06:35-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f41b9.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
06:36<andythenorth>with FIRS 0.6.4 I get more forests per new game (very unscientific test)
06:36<andythenorth>compared to 0.7.5, which has more industry types
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06:37<frosch123>obviously
06:37<Hirundo>of course
06:37<frosch123>the number of industries is fixed
06:37<frosch123>so more types result in less per type
06:37<andythenorth>obvious to people who are mathematically literate :P
06:37<andythenorth>I always forget
06:37<ZxBiohazardZx>hmmz
06:37<ZxBiohazardZx>question about dedi multiplayer
06:38<frosch123>main reason why firs in unplayable for me :p
06:38<ZxBiohazardZx>how do i load a savegame from the console?
06:38<frosch123>i like small maps
06:38<andythenorth>frosch123: ditto me
06:38<andythenorth>I keep starting games and quitting because the chains are all wrong
06:38<frosch123>ZxBiohazardZx: load "filename" ?
06:38<frosch123>or try "help load"
06:38<andythenorth>frosch123: which industry types are out of balance for you?
06:38<Hirundo>we need firs economies!~
06:38<andythenorth>I'd better try and fix it
06:38<frosch123>andythenorth: no idea
06:38<andythenorth>oh :P
06:38<ZxBiohazardZx>load crash.sav --> no such file or directory
06:38<frosch123>i think i never played firs for more than 5 minutes
06:39<andythenorth>me neither recently
06:39<andythenorth>I kind of hate it
06:39<ZxBiohazardZx>prolly diff savedir
06:39<andythenorth>FIRS looks nice, but is all wrong
06:39*andythenorth considers rm -r firs*
06:39<frosch123>ZxBiohazardZx: there are also ls and cd commands iirc
06:39*Hirundo has a backup
06:39<ZxBiohazardZx>hmmz i moved the file using windows, that works :P
06:40<ZxBiohazardZx>im playing an ECS game
06:40<frosch123>andythenorth: just implement different economies :)
06:40<ZxBiohazardZx>its a pain combined with cargodest :(
06:40<ZxBiohazardZx>same goes for FIRS imo
06:40<ZxBiohazardZx>its a great industryset
06:40<Hirundo>andythenorth: I think there should be some parameters to remove / combine some industries ("economies", if you will)
06:40<ZxBiohazardZx>but it becomes a pain when cargodest is added
06:40<Hirundo>e.g. in a non-farming economy, there should be only 1 or 2 farm types, probably the mixed farm only
06:41<ZxBiohazardZx>the cargobalancing act is a pain when you have 1 jam or something similar, it completely resets all the progress you made:P
06:41<andythenorth>cargobalancing is a wrong thing anyway :)
06:41<frosch123>Hirundo: i don't think combining industry types by removing the farm types helps
06:41<frosch123>i think you rather have to cut down cargo types, and then see which industries remain
06:42<andythenorth>the main blocker is implementation initially
06:42<andythenorth>the game balance can be sorted out by testing
06:42<andythenorth>but I have no sane way to right the code
06:42<andythenorth>write /s
06:43<frosch123>andythenorth: independent of how to code... is there a concept of what econcomies should be available and what industries/cargo they should supply?
06:43<ZxBiohazardZx>andythenorth try cargodest with first/ecs
06:43<andythenorth>several yes
06:43<andythenorth>cargodest doesn't appeal at all
06:43<ZxBiohazardZx>well pax/cargodest is fun imo
06:43<andythenorth>I find it a very weird concept
06:43<ZxBiohazardZx>its just a pain when combined with ECS/Firs
06:43<andythenorth>I haven't tried it though, so I should give it a chance
06:43<ZxBiohazardZx>on the "default" industries it actually adds some sort of challenge
06:44<ZxBiohazardZx>and on the ECS game i run now it gives interesting results
06:44<ZxBiohazardZx>and when you get the hang of it its actually a great addition
06:44*andythenorth considers playing old FIRS, where the industry balance is correct
06:44<ZxBiohazardZx>the balancing is a pain though :P
06:45<ZxBiohazardZx>ill try out a FIRS game later i think
06:45<andythenorth>FIRS is all wrong :P
06:45<ZxBiohazardZx>last FIRS is a while ago
06:45<FLHerne>It needs mroe industry types and cargos, that's all :P
06:45<ZxBiohazardZx>hehe
06:45<ZxBiohazardZx>more more more
06:45<FLHerne>s/ro/or/
06:45<ZxBiohazardZx>i sometimes hate the complexity too much
06:45*andythenorth hopes pikka shows up with TAI soon
06:45<ZxBiohazardZx>:P
06:46<Hirundo>frosch123: What's the status of http://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/Secondary_Related_Objects ?
06:46<FLHerne>andythenorth: Have you considered production caps on the first-generation industries?
06:46<frosch123>nothing done
06:47<Hirundo>Are you planning to get it done?
06:47<andythenorth>FLHerne: which / how much?
06:47<FLHerne>The amount of wheat that one windmill can grind a month is silly :P
06:47<andythenorth>I know
06:47<frosch123>i see no reasons to not do it; but currently i am doing other things
06:47<andythenorth>FLHerne: so how much wheat can one windmill grind per month?
06:47<ZxBiohazardZx>actually depends on windmill size
06:48<FLHerne>Unsure...perhaps I should look it up
06:48<andythenorth>1 tile
06:48<andythenorth>but you also have to make it a parameter
06:48<andythenorth>and you have to decide what to do with the excess cargo delivered
06:48<Hirundo>I don't mean to bug you about it, just being curious
06:49<ZxBiohazardZx>1 "normal" windmill
06:49<frosch123>no problem :) i just did not know how to interpret "planned" :)
06:50<ZxBiohazardZx>ugh stupid new elec windmills
06:50<ZxBiohazardZx>most results ofc link back to that
06:50<Rubidium>actually, FIRS should become bilingual when in the presence of Canadian GRFs ;)
06:50<andythenorth>good point
06:51<FLHerne>About 250 coomb sacks/week, apparently
06:51<FLHerne>Depending on weather :P
06:51<ZxBiohazardZx>FLHerne how much is a sack in your weights?
06:51<FLHerne>Haven't a clue :P
06:52<ZxBiohazardZx>500.000 to 530.000 kg a year is average for a 25 meter 2x mill in netherlands
06:52<andythenorth>the actual amount is not important
06:53<ZxBiohazardZx>production capacity is depending on the "gevlucht" the area, improvement on the wings and the ammount of grinders
06:53<andythenorth>you'll need to somehow match it to the number of farms on the map
06:53<andythenorth>so you'll need to measure grain production, then build an appropriate number of windmills
06:53<ZxBiohazardZx>i can find info on how many farms supply 1 mill
06:53<ZxBiohazardZx>1 sec
06:53<ZxBiohazardZx>can you link industries to "nearby" industries
06:53<andythenorth>no
06:53<ZxBiohazardZx>hmmz
06:53<ZxBiohazardZx>k
06:54<andythenorth>this needs an openttd patch to build all primary industries first
06:54<andythenorth>then build secondaries to match processing capacity to output
06:54<andythenorth>maybe GS can do it
06:54<ZxBiohazardZx>:P
06:54<ZxBiohazardZx>if you change the game-generation algorithm you could to
06:54<andythenorth>and as before - it will need a parameter to enable / disable
06:54<ZxBiohazardZx>oh well
06:55<ZxBiohazardZx>im trying to find info on how many farms supply to 1 windmill
06:55<FLHerne>132 tons/month is what I got for a large tower mill
06:55<FLHerne>[spurious precision]
06:55<ZxBiohazardZx>dutch mills produce 500-530 tons a year, for a normal sized mill
06:56<ZxBiohazardZx>but as andy mentioned
06:56<ZxBiohazardZx>you have to compare it to farm productions
06:56<ZxBiohazardZx>farms from X to Y means mills from 5Y to 10Y (or something similar)
06:56<FLHerne>Anyone have info on Smithy Forges? Those have the same issue :P
06:56<ZxBiohazardZx>as in steelforges or actual small blacksmiths?
06:56<andythenorth>how will you implement the limit?
06:57<andythenorth>acceptance? or output?
06:57<ZxBiohazardZx>andy can you not give min-max params for production?
06:57<FLHerne>The blacksmiths in FIRS
06:57<andythenorth>ZxBiohazardZx: yes
06:57<andythenorth>so what happens when you reach the production cap?
06:57<ZxBiohazardZx>then you can give farms a min X and max Y and give windmills a min 0 max 5Y or so
06:57<ZxBiohazardZx>after that stop accepting
06:57<ZxBiohazardZx>similar to ECS
06:58<andythenorth>so reject cargo?
06:58<ZxBiohazardZx>yeah reject untill below
06:58<FLHerne>That would be annoying
06:58<ZxBiohazardZx>you using stockpiles on FIRS or not?
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06:58<andythenorth>yes we're using stockpiles
06:58<ZxBiohazardZx>ECS has similar approach
06:58<andythenorth>stockpiles are stupid, but we have no choice
06:58<FLHerne>Have production/unit delivered decrease as delivery rate rises :D
06:58<ZxBiohazardZx>if supplied >>>>>> used --> stop accepting
06:59<FLHerne>That would avoid vast pileups
06:59<ZxBiohazardZx>imo its a valid mechanism
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06:59*andythenorth considers starting a new industry set
06:59<ZxBiohazardZx>and that solves your industry balancing as well
06:59<ZxBiohazardZx>as then you can predetermine reasonable values per type based on suppliers
07:00<ZxBiohazardZx>to use windmill example
07:00<andythenorth>hmm
07:00<andythenorth>count the number of suppliers within n tiles
07:00<andythenorth>and limit accordingly
07:00<ZxBiohazardZx>farms produce between X and Y, windmill from 0 to 3Y, stockpile to 5Y?
07:00<andythenorth>200t per farm within 16 tiles
07:00<andythenorth>hmm
07:01<andythenorth>would need to fix the farm production to a constant value
07:01<andythenorth>but that's ok
07:01<andythenorth>variable production is boring anyway
07:01<ZxBiohazardZx>you can even have variable production on the farms
07:01<ZxBiohazardZx>but use the 200/farm as average
07:02<andythenorth>but that means you might have too much cargo going to the windmill
07:02<andythenorth>hmm
07:02<ZxBiohazardZx>again if you overshot it, stop accepting
07:02<ZxBiohazardZx>average the farms on 200t and you should be fine
07:02<andythenorth>but then how does the player transport that cargo?
07:02<ZxBiohazardZx>make them 100-300
07:02<ZxBiohazardZx>not :P
07:02<ZxBiohazardZx>its like on ECS
07:03<ZxBiohazardZx>it will auto-reaccept in time
07:03<andythenorth>but then the transported rating can't be achieved
07:03<andythenorth>it breaks the game
07:03<ZxBiohazardZx>transfer options
07:03<ZxBiohazardZx>i use them for ECS too
07:03*andythenorth ponders transferring it all into a big black hole station
07:03<ZxBiohazardZx>i cant get the system running without transferring
07:03<andythenorth>but then vehicles would be losing money
07:03<andythenorth>which breaks the game
07:03<ZxBiohazardZx>nah tram it from dropoff to station
07:03<ZxBiohazardZx>and you have income
07:03<andythenorth>?
07:04<andythenorth>if it's not delivered, no income
07:04<ZxBiohazardZx>lets say you have a dropoff station B
07:04<ZxBiohazardZx>you transfer & leave empty @B so trains will continue
07:04<ZxBiohazardZx>and from B you have a tram to C (the industry)
07:04<ZxBiohazardZx>as soon as C accepts cargo, the tram will bring form B to C (short dist) and make the revenue
07:04<andythenorth>so the issue is
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07:05<andythenorth>5 farms @ 300t = 1500t output per month
07:05<andythenorth>but we're only accepting 1000t
07:05<ZxBiohazardZx>when stockpile limit/acceptance is reached the station stops accepting and the cheap tram runs empty
07:05<andythenorth>so we'll always have 500t untransported
07:05<ZxBiohazardZx>if that is the case then the player should redirect that 500t to another accepting industry
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07:05<andythenorth>but the other industries will be capped too
07:05<andythenorth>based on their neighbouring industry
07:05<ZxBiohazardZx>and that is if you keep windmill static on 200t*producers in range
07:06<ZxBiohazardZx>what if i decide to not bring my goods to nearby industry
07:06<ZxBiohazardZx>but to a far away one
07:06<andythenorth>same issue, somewhere else
07:06<andythenorth>make the cap max*producers
07:06<andythenorth>solves it
07:06<ZxBiohazardZx>or what if i have a windmill without nearby farms
07:06<ZxBiohazardZx>:P
07:06<ZxBiohazardZx>but i transport to it from far away:P
07:07<ZxBiohazardZx>you will always keep issues like that for you cant direct link the productions
07:07<andythenorth>funding a new secondary would mean recalculating all the caps
07:07<FLHerne>andythenorth: What are the light-concrete tiles in CHIPS source for? They don't seem to appear in-game
07:07*andythenorth looks
07:07<ZxBiohazardZx>aka windmill = ALWAYS nearby farms*x
07:07<ZxBiohazardZx>so if farm increases, so does windmill
07:07<ZxBiohazardZx>or maybe allow upgrading it?
07:07<ZxBiohazardZx>similar to funding/bringing a town
07:08<andythenorth>FLHerne: the ones that are stone coloured? They were quarry tiles, deprecated
07:08<ZxBiohazardZx>upgrade it for bigger capacity then default (incremental steps, exponentially more expensive )
07:08<ZxBiohazardZx>that possible or?
07:08<andythenorth>possible with a patch
07:08<ZxBiohazardZx>so not on trunk/via newgrf?
07:08<FLHerne>andythenorth: No, the ones that look like light-grey concrete, with vehicle tracks (?) on
07:09<FLHerne>They don't match any of the platforms, or OGFX baseset concrete, or the ones that you claim match TTD concrete
07:09<FLHerne>|They look nice though :-)
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07:10<ZxBiohazardZx>but an upgrade system wouldnt be too bad for the issue above
07:10<ZxBiohazardZx>if your industry wont accept enough, you can increase capacity via investments :P
07:10<andythenorth>FLHerne: they're an abandoned attempt to provide a concrete ground tile
07:10<andythenorth>I prefer the one in the TTD base set though
07:10<ZxBiohazardZx>to bad you cant get that done via newgrf only :P
07:11*andythenorth thinks the game should be about building industry
07:11<andythenorth>the transporting should be automatic
07:12<ZxBiohazardZx>lol
07:12<ZxBiohazardZx>maybe that is one thing though
07:12<FLHerne>andythenorth: Why abandoned? They easily look the best with huts on them :P
07:12<ZxBiohazardZx>industries should check nearby stations for waiting cargo to use?
07:12<ZxBiohazardZx>aka if i drop it off on the station and its not accepting, it can grab from station when it is :P
07:12<ZxBiohazardZx>but yeah stockpile issue
07:13<andythenorth>FLHerne: feel free to use them
07:13<andythenorth>Alberth: how is your RCT project going?
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07:14*andythenorth needs a new game. I'm kind of done with TTD, just can't get interested in it
07:14<FLHerne>andythenorth: I already am :P
07:14<@Alberth>it needs a bit more code
07:15<andythenorth>can I make people sick yet?
07:15<FLHerne>andythenorth: FOSS only?
07:15<andythenorth>don't care
07:15<andythenorth>has to be interruptable
07:15<andythenorth>can't be anything that is absorbing, or can't be put on hold
07:15<andythenorth>so no RT online play
07:15<andythenorth>nothing action based
07:15<andythenorth>nothing which requires concentration
07:16<@Alberth>no, but they do have colours http://freerct.blogspot.nl/
07:16<andythenorth>:)
07:16<andythenorth>can we do all the graphics by printing unicode chars to the screen?
07:16<@Alberth>probably
07:17<@Alberth>but doom-ascii already exists
07:17<andythenorth>it does :o
07:17*andythenorth wants to play Doom again
07:19<@Alberth>maybe play widelands?
07:19<andythenorth>http://doom.chaosforge.org/
07:19<andythenorth>looks fun
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07:35<andythenorth>I could split FIRS into 1-grf-per-industry?
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07:37<andythenorth>that solves economies
07:37<@planetmaker>it doesn't quite solve it. As not every combination makes sense, does it?
07:38<ZxBiohazardZx>ill have the windmill the fishingboats and a steelmill
07:38<ZxBiohazardZx>go :P
07:38<ZxBiohazardZx>go go pointless industries go :P
07:38<FLHerne>andythenorth: Not until they raise the limit on number of loaded NewGrfs, you can't :P
07:40<Rubidium>just go with the stuff economy
07:41<Rubidium>extracting/growing stuff, making stuff into other stuff, moving stuff from houses to other houses and so forth
07:41<Rubidium>then you need two, maybe three industries and one cargo
07:42<ZxBiohazardZx>haha
07:43<ZxBiohazardZx>stupid stuff is stupid
07:43<ZxBiohazardZx>might be fun for toyland
07:43<ZxBiohazardZx>baseblocks
07:43<ZxBiohazardZx>semi-lego-like
07:43<ZxBiohazardZx>baseblocks can be pax, can be cargo can be anything
07:43<ZxBiohazardZx>:P
07:44<MNIM>how about an age of empires economy?
07:44<MNIM>food, wood, stone and gold.
07:45<ZxBiohazardZx>nah
07:45<ZxBiohazardZx>go go cossacks
07:45<ZxBiohazardZx>add iron and coal
07:45<ZxBiohazardZx>iron coal gold wood stone
07:45<ZxBiohazardZx>then again you usually go for steel as it is logical after iron+coal
07:45<MNIM>farms need wood and make food, houses need food and make gold. towns need stone and wood to grow, and banks/markets need and make gold.
07:45<ZxBiohazardZx>and that gives you steel -> something
07:45<MNIM>that's the whole economy.
07:45<ZxBiohazardZx>:P
07:48<MNIM>you could call it something like 'Simple Industries Mines Peoples and Life Economy.
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08:04<CIA-4>OpenTTD: frosch * r24398 /trunk/src/lang/brazilian_portuguese.txt: -Fix: Most recent changes to Brazilian were syntactically wrong.
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08:11<CIA-4>OpenTTD: frosch * r24399 /trunk/src/lang/korean.txt: -Fix: Korean.
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08:21<@planetmaker>Alberth: I looked around a bit and found http://www.mrzv.org/software/artemis/ and http://www.digitalgemstones.com/projects/b/ and http://code.google.com/p/mercurial-bugtracker-extension/
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08:32<@Alberth>planetmaker: none of them seems to be able to find bugs based on some text, unless you count 'grep', but then you are mssing a nice bug-list
08:32<@planetmaker>hm, I see
08:33<@planetmaker>Alberth: but you likely can use like "hg log -k 'text'" or doesn't that work?
08:34<@Alberth>I think you want "give me all bugs about X"
08:34<@planetmaker>hg log -k 'X' then?
08:34<@Alberth>as a list of bugs, not as a list of files or revisions, imho
08:34<@planetmaker>maybe, yes
08:35<@Alberth>hmm, perhaps hg list bugs | grep X
08:35<@Alberth>euhm, no
08:35<@Alberth>that only matches titles :)
08:36<@planetmaker>hg log -I path/to/bugs -k 'X'
08:36<@Alberth>why are you interested in revisions?
08:36<@planetmaker>revision?
08:37<@planetmaker>you mean as I use log which gives the revs? Well
08:37*andythenorth finds some sprites DanMacK did for FISH
08:37<@planetmaker>I'm not :-)
08:37<@planetmaker>But it gives a list of those bug-related revisions which touch 'X'
08:37<@planetmaker>Might give double hits, though
08:37<@Alberth>and closed issues :)
08:38<@planetmaker>indeed. That'd be painful sometimes
08:39<@planetmaker># hg ilist
08:39<@planetmaker># hg ilist -a
08:39<@planetmaker>907ab57e04502afd ( 3) [resolved=fixed]: New issue
08:39<@planetmaker>artemis seems to provide a command for that, though ^
08:40<@Alberth>currently open issues work until you have 20+ or so :)
08:40<@Alberth>which may be sufficient for a small project though
08:42<@planetmaker>Most NewGRF projects I know have more ;-)
08:42<@planetmaker>but what makes it stop working beyond 20 open issues?
08:42<andythenorth>what are you trying to do?
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08:44<@Alberth>planetmaker: remembering what each issue is about gets more difficult with 20+ issues, or over longer periods of time
08:44<@Alberth>that's why you have a search
08:45<@Alberth>without it, you have to remember the details of each issue while reading the "all open issues" list
08:46<@Alberth>or am I missing something?
08:48<andythenorth>are you reading locally, or via redmine or such?
08:48*andythenorth has to read tickets every day for work and (re)prioritise them
08:48<andythenorth>remembering the issue from the title is not ea
08:48<andythenorth>easy
08:49<@Alberth>I mentioned that a distributed issue tracker would be useful this morning, and pm found a few :)
08:49<andythenorth>interesting idea
08:49<andythenorth>we use trac still at work
08:50<andythenorth>it smells, but the opinion seems to be that they all smell, so why change :P
08:50<@Alberth>trac allows nice referencing to revisions, changesets and issues everywhere
08:53<andythenorth>only if you've set it up correctly
08:53<andythenorth>and not if you've used cluemapper
08:53<andythenorth>:P
08:54*andythenorth stops complaining and does some actual newgrf stuff
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08:56<@planetmaker>andythenorth: the idea behind adding issues to repo is intriguing IMHO: currently all issues are "gone" when the DevZone is not reachable (or e.g. when you're offline). With them in the repo... they're everywhere where the repo is
08:57<andythenorth>yup
08:57<andythenorth>we tried designing a server / app / asset management system last year for people doing sysops
08:57<andythenorth>which would tell you the log of changes made to configuration etc
08:57<andythenorth>so at 2am you know what recently changed
08:58<andythenorth>we ended up concluding that distributed VCS was easier than a custom app :P
08:58<@Alberth>I'd hope so :)
09:01<@planetmaker>andythenorth: the coop servers use hg to track changes in /etc :-)
09:02<andythenorth>do they log stuff like 'supervisor restarted me 17 times in 1 minute' ?
09:02<andythenorth>which is more of a logging type task
09:02<andythenorth>we were trying to blend automated logging and manual engineering logs
09:02<andythenorth>it failed :P
09:02<@planetmaker>that sounds like a thing logged in /var/log/messages
09:02<@planetmaker>thus it just needs proper grep-ing
09:03<andythenorth>it was a bit more magical than that, but that's why it failed :)
09:04<andythenorth>ho
09:04<andythenorth>I should update nml
09:07<andythenorth>hmm
09:08<andythenorth>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1537/
09:08*andythenorth provides nml QA again :)
09:08<@planetmaker>too old python version?
09:08<andythenorth>maybe
09:09<andythenorth>2.6.1
09:09<andythenorth>worked last week
09:09<@planetmaker>hm, that should not be too old
09:09<andythenorth>works for FIRS
09:09<@planetmaker>I guess... Open an NML issue :-)
09:10<andythenorth>wondering if I can patch a fix
09:11<andythenorth>works if I remove one vehicle
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09:15<FLHerne>andythenorth: More NewObjects :-)
09:17<@Alberth>andythenorth: I expect a bug in NML r1913
09:17<andythenorth>it's interesting that only one vehicle causes it
09:17<@Alberth>the code is executed when you make an error somewhere
09:18<@Alberth>are you running NML tip?
09:18<@Alberth>ie do you use r1913?
09:20<andythenorth>yup
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09:21<@Alberth>Hirundo: ^^ trouble
09:21<andythenorth>1912 works
09:21<andythenorth>i.e. provides the correct error
09:21<andythenorth>missing png in this case
09:21<andythenorth>there you go, free testing by andythenorth :D
09:21<andythenorth>I find most cases :P
09:22<@Alberth>including non-implemented areas :)
09:24*andythenorth ships new ship
09:29<FLHerne>What's the new ship you shipped?
09:34<andythenorth>large coaster, 1934
09:34<andythenorth>it's in the nml conversion of FISH, which is quite broken right now
09:37<FLHerne>So you have things that don't start in 1870 now?
09:37<andythenorth>more of those yes
09:38<andythenorth>not a full set though
09:38<andythenorth>ships are insanely hard to draw
09:38<andythenorth>and my artist got driven away :(
09:38<andythenorth>driven away / bored ;)
09:42<FLHerne>Any earlier pax ships yet?
09:49<@planetmaker>andythenorth: still no new DanMacK interest? :-(
09:52<ZxBiohazardZx>i was wondering
09:53<ZxBiohazardZx>if i have an empty map (semi-heightmap, just added canals)
09:53<ZxBiohazardZx>why does editting newgrfs still possibly cause issues?
09:53<andythenorth>you have zero grfs currently?
09:53<ZxBiohazardZx>aka can we not define "blocks" that are not affected by newgrf changes that can be loaded as base?
09:54<andythenorth>no grfs = no issues, if that's what you mean
09:54<ZxBiohazardZx>nah this game has multiple and will crash due to them being altered (most likely, its a chrill patchpack game so im not 100% sure)
09:54<ZxBiohazardZx>well lets say i have an empty heightmap
09:54<ZxBiohazardZx>and add canals
09:54<ZxBiohazardZx>then i want to save it without grfs
09:54<@planetmaker>not feasible really
09:54<ZxBiohazardZx>if i later on open it, add newgrfs and then start trees, towns & industries, it will still mark it as "changed" right?
09:55<ZxBiohazardZx>well my point is that the newgrf-define is on a weird location
09:55<ZxBiohazardZx>id put it as menu/required select on every newgame start
09:55<ZxBiohazardZx>rather then a weird perma setting in the main menu
09:55<andythenorth>yes, the game GUI is a mess :)
09:55<ZxBiohazardZx>if you forgot something your screwed and have to redo it all
09:55<@planetmaker>ZxBiohazardZx: you're asking for a new scenario format basically
09:55<ZxBiohazardZx>yeah i guess so
09:55<@planetmaker>or a re-definition of heightmap. or similar
09:56<ZxBiohazardZx>the current one stores only terrain height
09:56<ZxBiohazardZx>some maps of mine use "dried up lakes"
09:56<ZxBiohazardZx>but if i convert to heightmap to change the newgrfs then i have to re-dry alot of it
09:56<ZxBiohazardZx>similar goes for the towns
09:56<ZxBiohazardZx>i want to define a town spawnpoint
09:57<ZxBiohazardZx>and rough size
09:57<ZxBiohazardZx>then on game-generation it can place whatever town @ whatever towngrf provided to generate the scenario
09:57<ZxBiohazardZx>making the scenario re-usable by diff grf-sets instead of having to provide 1 gazillion permutations to every newgrfset out there
09:58<@planetmaker>ZxBiohazardZx: see http://wiki.openttd.org/Terkhen/Scenario_format
09:58<ZxBiohazardZx>yes!
09:58<ZxBiohazardZx>something like that
09:59<ZxBiohazardZx>actually exactly that
09:59<@planetmaker>feel free to comment there :-)
10:00<@Alberth>os submit a patch :D
10:00<@Alberth>*or
10:00<ZxBiohazardZx>reading the wiki now, it looks actually damn good
10:00<@planetmaker>(i hope Terkhen wouldn't mind). And yes... patch :-P
10:00<ZxBiohazardZx>haha me and submitting a patch, you funny guy :)
10:00<ZxBiohazardZx>the best "coding" i did was some minor java for a minor and SQL for wow-emulation
10:00<@Alberth>I have seen people starting to program to submit patches
10:01<ZxBiohazardZx>i can read the C++ and understand what it does, but editting it is 100% not what i indend doing
10:01*planetmaker waves hand at Alberth
10:01<ZxBiohazardZx>specially not since ottd is a bit more complex then the wowemu setup (well for me its less understandable)
10:01<ZxBiohazardZx>im more of a feedback / feature requester :P
10:01<@Alberth>oh, another one :) /me waves back to planetmaker
10:01<ZxBiohazardZx>but that idea from Terkhen is actually what i meant
10:01<andythenorth>people change
10:02<andythenorth>I mean, once you used to poop yourself 3 times a day
10:02<andythenorth>and you had to be fed in a high chair
10:02<@planetmaker>:-D
10:02<ZxBiohazardZx>you should be able to define basestuff and then regardless of newgrf's it should work (aka newgrf-related changes can be applied)
10:02<andythenorth>if we talk ourselves out of change, then....blearch
10:02<andythenorth>although andythenorth can't sing
10:02<@Alberth>ZxBiohazardZx: we know already
10:02<andythenorth>and probably can't learn
10:02<andythenorth>ZxBiohazardZx: I have patches, why can't you?
10:03<ZxBiohazardZx>because you dont like my coding skillz :)
10:03<andythenorth>and you like mine?
10:03<@planetmaker>:-)
10:03<ZxBiohazardZx>and seriously i dont have the time for learning cpp and the trunk layout
10:03<ZxBiohazardZx>i already do some shit for wow-emulation and im 2 years behind on my bachelor civil engineering
10:04<ZxBiohazardZx>im not a programmer, but who knows, if i get bored enough i might give it a try
10:04<@planetmaker>"screw the style and skills. Results are what count no matter the means" ;-)
10:04<ZxBiohazardZx>i think i actually updated a patch once
10:04<andythenorth>civils is over-rated anyway, I quit my civils degree
10:04<ZxBiohazardZx>aka update the linechanges to trunk
10:04<andythenorth>it's just concrete for hours, and soil mechanics
10:04<ZxBiohazardZx>haha
10:04<ZxBiohazardZx>you got it :(
10:04<@planetmaker>I'm not a programmer by profession...
10:04<ZxBiohazardZx>fluid mechanics are a bigger pain for me
10:04<ZxBiohazardZx>as i suck in math
10:04<ZxBiohazardZx>stupid ODE's
10:04<andythenorth>at least fluid mechanics is all just based on constants that nobody understands
10:04<@planetmaker>and if you can do fluid and continuum mechanics, then you can also programme.
10:05<@planetmaker>You *need* actually be able to programme
10:05<andythenorth>if you can do finite element analysis, you can programme
10:05<andythenorth>if you can do second level differentiation you can programme
10:05<@planetmaker>ZxBiohazardZx: ODE? That's boring indeed. PDE! :-P
10:05<andythenorth>geez, if you can do long division you can programme
10:05*andythenorth can't do long division, never figured it
10:06<andythenorth>most of my flash game programming involved tan / sin / cost, and not much else :P
10:06<andythenorth>cos*
10:06<ZxBiohazardZx>planet yeah any DE for that matter
10:06<ZxBiohazardZx>meh yeah reminds me
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10:06<ZxBiohazardZx>i still have to pass Computer Graphics & Computational Intelligence for my minor programming
10:07<ZxBiohazardZx>i succesfully did Java & web/db design
10:07<ZxBiohazardZx>db design was my best :P
10:07<andythenorth>write a fuzzy-logic based newgrf graphics generator
10:07<@planetmaker>then write a game script or AI for OpenTTD, if you can choose the topic ;-)
10:07<andythenorth>that learns based on player feedback
10:07<ZxBiohazardZx>cant planet, it hardly get the stupid ideas anyway
10:07<ZxBiohazardZx>swarm intelligence, backward propagation, neural networking
10:08<ZxBiohazardZx>i took the minor for the subjects i passed
10:08<ZxBiohazardZx>the 2 others are the crap i have to work on
10:08<ZxBiohazardZx>oh well first i must resit some civil subjects that are extremely boring
10:09<ZxBiohazardZx>constructional safety (materials engineering 2.0) probability & statistics (epic fail with 1 point short) and numeretical methods for DEs (blegh)
10:12<@planetmaker>ZxBiohazardZx: the numerical methods actually need not be boring at all.
10:12<@planetmaker>I find it actually quite intriguing. And it gives you a good idea how trustworthy results can be :-)
10:17<ZxBiohazardZx>well yeah i actually like the last
10:17<ZxBiohazardZx>the matlab is fine
10:17<ZxBiohazardZx>and i can code/work with it
10:17<ZxBiohazardZx>i just stink in the non-pc examn
10:17<ZxBiohazardZx>stupid Tayloring screws up
10:18<ZxBiohazardZx>aka i know something is O(h^2) but i sometimes have a hard time proving it
10:18<ZxBiohazardZx>same for the testequation
10:18<ZxBiohazardZx>i know the results for euler foward, backward and modified eurler
10:18<ZxBiohazardZx>and i can work the methods
10:19<@planetmaker>hehe
10:19<ZxBiohazardZx>but i sometimes jsut cant get the proof done on a given initial value problem
10:19*andythenorth liked the first year unit where we made bridges
10:19<ZxBiohazardZx>i got an 8/10 for matlabbing it, i got a 2/10 for the examn on paper :P
10:19<andythenorth>and the practical experiment making rivers in the sand tank
10:20<ZxBiohazardZx>Spagetti bridges :)
10:20<ZxBiohazardZx>epic yearly event :)
10:20<ZxBiohazardZx>anyway its holiday so /care
10:20<ZxBiohazardZx>also to get back on creating/writing a patch
10:20<ZxBiohazardZx>i feel first patch should be trivial / small
10:21<ZxBiohazardZx>not a huge rewrite of a base feature :P
10:21<CIA-4>OpenTTD: frosch * r24400 /trunk/src/ (strgen/strgen.cpp table/strgen_tables.h): -Add: Plural 'names' to the output of strgen -export-plurals.
10:21<ZxBiohazardZx>i actually did some CPP for the wow-emulator
10:22<ZxBiohazardZx>but openttd uses more actual hexcodes from what i see
10:22<@planetmaker>hex codes? where?
10:28<frosch123>is bibi blocksberg known in the english world? hex-hex?
10:28<@planetmaker>:-D
10:28<frosch123>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibi_Blocksberg <- at least there is an english wiki page
10:35<andythenorth>not known to me :)
10:38<andythenorth>if we fixed vehicle smoke, I could try adding support for it to nml :)
10:38*andythenorth just saying
10:38<TrueBrain>with a big tnx to frosch123
10:38<TrueBrain>WT3 has a nice update :)
10:38<TrueBrain>lets hope people understand genders and plurals more now
10:40<andythenorth>lo TrueBrain
10:40<andythenorth>:)
10:46<andythenorth>"nml is so bracing"
10:46<FLHerne>andythenorth: You haven't drawn your concrete/cobbled/mud tiles for non-flat slopes at any point, have you? :P
10:46<andythenorth>nope
10:46<FLHerne>:-(
10:46<andythenorth>use foundations
10:47*FLHerne gets out an image editor
10:47<andythenorth>there are a *lot* of non-flat slopers
10:47<andythenorth>there's only one flat tile
10:47<FLHerne>True
10:47<andythenorth>you'll need about 16 non-flat slope tiles
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10:47<FLHerne>Hmm. Moved to 'long-term ideas' then
10:48<FLHerne>No slipways in other angles, either?
10:48<andythenorth>nope
10:49<FLHerne>Ah well
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11:56<andythenorth>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Vehicles#Vehicle_variables
11:56<andythenorth>why is vehicle current_speed expressed in m/s
11:56<andythenorth>?
11:56<andythenorth>I can convert to that I guess
11:57*andythenorth needs an mph to m/s converter :P
11:57<@planetmaker>andythenorth: NML knows units
11:57<@planetmaker>speed: 56 mph
11:57<@planetmaker>and you're set
11:57<andythenorth>in a switch block?
11:58<@planetmaker>I guess not there (yet).
11:58<andythenorth>yet (tm)
11:58<andythenorth>;)
11:58<@planetmaker>:-P
11:58<andythenorth>(speed * 1609) / 360 or something
12:00<frosch123>i thought i read a commit message about units being supported in switches
12:00*andythenorth will try
12:01<andythenorth>nmlc: "fish.nml", line 1065: Using a unit is in switch-ranges is not (temporarily) not supported
12:02<andythenorth>@calc 1609/360
12:02<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 4.46944444444
12:04<andythenorth>ach my maths is off
12:05<andythenorth>10 mph = 16090 meters per hour
12:05<andythenorth>16090 / 60
12:05<andythenorth>@calc 1609 / 60
12:05<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 26.8166666667
12:06<andythenorth>@calc 26.82 / 60
12:06<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 0.447
12:06<andythenorth>better
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12:09<andythenorth>hydrofoils work again (rise out of the water as they go faster)
12:09<andythenorth>world's ugliest code: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1543/
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12:20<andythenorth>hmm
12:20<andythenorth>making stuff is fun
12:22<@Alberth>code looks very scary
12:24<andythenorth>it's just ugly
12:24<andythenorth>mostly it's just maths
12:24<andythenorth>hard to read :P
12:24<andythenorth>I could abstract some of it away to the vehicle class
12:24<andythenorth>but then you have to go look up abstractions to read it :P
12:25<andythenorth>rock > andy < hard place
12:33<@Alberth>use the rock to beat the hard place to something softer ?
12:33<andythenorth>good point
12:33<andythenorth>or beat the rock on the hard place until it breaks :P
12:34<@Alberth>and if very very very lucky, you break both :D
12:35<andythenorth>or me
12:39<@Alberth>that would be extremely unfortunate
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12:47<andythenorth>another ship sorted
12:47<andythenorth>wish I could diff the resulting action 0 props :P
12:47<andythenorth>I have no idea if I'm introducing bugs to the basic properties
12:48<andythenorth>nfo -> nml
12:54<andythenorth>also, SSD increases battery life insanely
12:55<FLHerne>andythenorth: What are the sprites in http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/chips/repository/changes/sprites/graphics/generictiles.png intended for?
12:55<andythenorth>they were copied from FIRS but not used
12:55<andythenorth>you have storage tanks (used a lot in FIRS)
12:55<andythenorth>and then staithes for sand / clay / stone
12:57<ZxBiohazardZx>DWE tiles have them in use
12:57<ZxBiohazardZx>or similar, they use wooden sidings
12:57<ZxBiohazardZx>or ground-dikes
12:58<FLHerne>Thanks :-)
13:00*FLHerne adds them as objects
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13:05<FLHerne>Back later
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13:08*andythenorth finds that a lot of spritesets have to be added when using nml
13:08<andythenorth>which is a lot of identifiers to write :P
13:09<andythenorth>am I doing it wrong?
13:09<andythenorth>e.g. three load states means three spritesets
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>my spritesets are autogenerated :)
13:10<andythenorth>BANDIT ones are too
13:10<andythenorth>FISH not
13:10<andythenorth>can't be bothered to figure out what's generic
13:12<Eddi|zuHause>i generate a tree (or non-cyclic graph) of switches, and then name my spritesets <vehicleid>_<X>_<Y>_<Z> where X, Y and Z are the branch numbers of each switch
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13:19<andythenorth>you are smarter than me :)
13:23-!-ZxBiohazardZx [~IceChat77@5ED05D6D.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: REALITY.SYS Corrupted: Re-boot universe? (Y/N/Q)]
13:27*andythenorth should probably have encouraged Zx more about his degree :P
13:28<andythenorth>but all the civil engineers I met during my degree hated it :P
13:43<andythenorth>what do we think about sound effects for ships?
13:43<andythenorth>as I am about to code the damn things :P
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know anything about ship sounds
13:45<M1zera>all you need to know is "bhooooooooooooooooo" :-)
13:45<andythenorth>there are two in the base set iirc?
13:45*andythenorth checks
13:45<andythenorth>I did this for nfo FISH
13:45<andythenorth>I just wonder if it was worth it
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: translators * r24401 /trunk/src/lang/ (czech.txt korean.txt lithuanian.txt):
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: czech - 8 changes by RabbRubbish
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: korean - 7 changes by telk5093
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: lithuanian - 25 changes by Stabilitronas
13:48<andythenorth>ferry horn
13:48<andythenorth>ship horn
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13:49<Eddi|zuHause>the bigger the ship the louder the horn! :p
13:49<andythenorth>volume cb?
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>i'm afraid you'll have to provide different samples for that :)
13:52<andythenorth>hmm
13:52<andythenorth>nvm :)
13:54<andythenorth>there's probably a pure nml way to do this right?
13:54<andythenorth> sound_effect: ${('SOUND_SHIP_HORN','SOUND_FERRY_HORN')[vehicle.default_cargo=='PASS']};
13:55<andythenorth>ternary operator?
13:56<andythenorth>but I don't know how I'd get the vehicle's default cargo in an action 0 context :P
13:57<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: NML allows to specify a sound volume, but I'm too lazy right now if that's a default feature or emulated by NML with duplicated and modified sounds in the GRF.
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13:58<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: doesn't sound like a decision that should be made at runtime...
13:59<andythenorth>no, compile time indeed
13:59<andythenorth>the python works fine, just wondered if nml had a way...
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: ternary operator is runtime
13:59<andythenorth>k
14:00*andythenorth moves on to automagic cost setting
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14:31<frosch123>@seen hyro*
14:31<@DorpsGek>frosch123: Hyronymus was last seen in #openttd 6 days, 6 hours, 13 minutes, and 57 seconds ago: <Hyronymus> ~0~
14:31<frosch123>planetmaker: remember what newgrf hyro wanted to upload to bananas with translated readmes and such?
14:33<frosch123>andythenorth: bananas has a new feature! :o
14:36<ZxBiohazardZx>Assertation failed at line 341 of ..\src\linkgraph.cpp: source_flows.empty()
14:37<ZxBiohazardZx>can that be caused by newgrfs or is that actually bad code
14:37<ZxBiohazardZx>chrill patchpack
14:37<frosch123>looks cargodist related
14:39<ZxBiohazardZx>yeah thats my point
14:39<ZxBiohazardZx>i know there are newgrf changes though
14:39<ZxBiohazardZx>but this error is most frequent popper, and i think its related to the patchpack, and not to the changes
14:40<ZxBiohazardZx>was emergency save so cant recall the full report, i can get original(previous similar one) if it helps
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14:45<frosch123>if your newgrf changes imposed changes to cargos, industries or vehicle capacities, i can very well imagine them causing trouble for cargodist
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15:11<Elukka>i haven't had any trouble using cargodist with any number of vehicle sets and FIRS, though i usually have it off for industries
15:12<ZxBiohazardZx>frosch123 then i blame newgrfchanges
15:12<ZxBiohazardZx>roma loaded ECS on existing scenario/heightmap i believe
15:12<ZxBiohazardZx>hence i asked for the new scenario save format earlier today
15:13<Elukka>oh, we're talking about changes to newgrfs as a whole aren't we
15:13<ZxBiohazardZx>the wiki suggestion is honestly a good setup for scenario's / heightmap
15:22<@Terkhen>don't forget to comment in the forum thread if you think of any improvements or problems with the format :)
15:23*Terkhen hopes to have time and the desire to code this summer
15:24<@Alberth>weather too good to code? :)
15:26<ZxBiohazardZx>nah Terkhen
15:26<ZxBiohazardZx>for towns i suggest to just give spawnpoint+size
15:26<ZxBiohazardZx>but i think that the format has that
15:27<ZxBiohazardZx>not sure about scaling though
15:27<ZxBiohazardZx>but thats heightmap related
15:27<ZxBiohazardZx>and we can already scale them to a certain level
15:27<ZxBiohazardZx>going to much on it ruins the heightmap usually
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: can't imagine anything "good" about summer-weather in spain :p
15:27<ZxBiohazardZx>and on cpp with extra heightlevel it always seems flat to me
15:28<@Terkhen>Alberth: enough free time to get bored of procrastination and games, which is what I mostly do after work nowadays
15:28<ZxBiohazardZx>but Terkhen your final format can be used with any newgrfset right?
15:28<@Alberth>Terkhen: coding is also a game :p
15:28<ZxBiohazardZx>even diff industries/townbuildings?
15:28<@Terkhen>ZxBiohazardZx: the idea is that newgrfs are not contemplated at all by the format
15:28<ZxBiohazardZx>good
15:29<@Terkhen>townbuildings are not considered at all
15:29<@Terkhen>and right now the industry layer is missing
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15:29<ZxBiohazardZx>i was majorly annoyed by newgrfs causing crashes in scenarios i edit
15:29<@Terkhen>because it would need more thinking :)
15:29<ZxBiohazardZx>aka sometimes i make a scenario 4-5x the same just so i can replay it with diff newgrfs
15:29<ZxBiohazardZx>and thats a pain
15:29<@Terkhen>that's exactly the reason for making a new scenario format
15:30<ZxBiohazardZx>also imo the main-menu gui is wrong (newgrf selections should be obligatory part of starting a newgame) but thats a diff story
15:30<ZxBiohazardZx>Terkhen i agree, it looked really good
15:30<ZxBiohazardZx>for objectfiles
15:30<ZxBiohazardZx>if you have multiple objects they all go in 1 file
15:30<ZxBiohazardZx>right?
15:31<ZxBiohazardZx>aka all towns into 1 towns file, where creation identifier is linked to the town file?
15:31<ZxBiohazardZx>[town1] town1data [town2] town2data
15:31<ZxBiohazardZx>etc?
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15:32<@Terkhen>yes
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15:32<@Terkhen>each layer goes to a single file
15:33<ZxBiohazardZx>k
15:33<ZxBiohazardZx>what about industry then
15:33<ZxBiohazardZx>i see you mentioned complicated
15:33<ZxBiohazardZx>thats i recon due to newgrf's
15:33<ZxBiohazardZx>maybe you can make it switch-case depending
15:33<@Terkhen>how would you identify industries in a newgrf independent way?
15:34<ZxBiohazardZx>by only defining WHERE it should be placed and not WHAT should be placed?
15:34<ZxBiohazardZx>aka define X fee tiles for the industry
15:34<ZxBiohazardZx>if you define just enough space for a coalmine
15:34<ZxBiohazardZx>but not enough for something else
15:34<ZxBiohazardZx>then it spawns there
15:34<@Terkhen>that's almost random, there is almost no difference with not having any industry data :)
15:34<ZxBiohazardZx>hmmz true
15:35<@Alberth>"enough space" is already newgrf specific
15:35<ZxBiohazardZx>yeah your right Alberth
15:35<ZxBiohazardZx>i usually have random industries anyway
15:35<@Alberth>place + desired input + desired output cargoes?
15:35<ZxBiohazardZx>its towns/terrain that is the biggest pain to do
15:35<ZxBiohazardZx>industries are less of a pain for me
15:36<ZxBiohazardZx>maybe allow 3 base-sets to be defined
15:36<ZxBiohazardZx>aka change industry/cargo newgrfs into basesetlike status
15:36<@Terkhen>output cargoes are also newgrf dependent
15:36<ZxBiohazardZx>instead of baseset add [industry] where whoever gives a newgrf has to at least provide 3-4 default types?
15:36<@Alberth>FIRS coal != default coal?
15:37<andythenorth>dunno
15:37<@Terkhen>it might be in that particular case, but the specs allow different types of coal
15:37<ZxBiohazardZx>but yeah industries for me are the lesser issue
15:37<@Terkhen>or industries producing different cargos
15:37<@Terkhen>or different industries producing the same cargos
15:37<ZxBiohazardZx>the major ones are roads, towns, canals/rivers etc
15:37<ZxBiohazardZx>maybe tfor the industry layer add a specifier
15:38<ZxBiohazardZx>aka must use this grf to generate the industry
15:38<@Alberth>Terkhen: cargo1, cargo2, etc then, where you can pick the actual cargo :)
15:38<@Terkhen>ZxBiohazardZx: that defeats the point of the new format
15:38<ZxBiohazardZx>true
15:38<ZxBiohazardZx>well as i said, for me its important that towns/roads & canals are there
15:38*Terkhen 's plan goes along industry classes and industry labels
15:38<@Terkhen>but I have not thought much about it
15:38<ZxBiohazardZx>as most my changes are in those
15:38<ZxBiohazardZx>trees as well ofc
15:38<@Terkhen>if I manage to implement everything else I'm happy already
15:38<ZxBiohazardZx>yeah was bout to say
15:38<ZxBiohazardZx>just getting the rest would be the main objective
15:39<ZxBiohazardZx>also by making roads a 9 pixel block you get a huge road-layer image when playing big maps (2kx2k+)
15:40<ZxBiohazardZx>2048x2048 px heightmap results into a 6144*6144 roadmap?
15:40<@Terkhen>6144*6144*4 is still relatively small
15:40<@Terkhen>IIRC it had four colours
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15:42<ZxBiohazardZx>i was about to say, cant you make it 2048x2048 as well but use colors for the 9 possible road combinations on tile?
15:43<@Terkhen>do the math, the result in used bytes is about the same
15:43<@Terkhen>and we also would like to keep the image layers as human readable as possible
15:43<ZxBiohazardZx>fair enough
15:44<ZxBiohazardZx>9 options, 9 pixels
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15:44<Supercheese>Forwards-compatible with 45-degree roads? :P
15:44<ZxBiohazardZx>or mip-map whatever
15:44<@Alberth>Terkhen: make the other images also 3x3 pixels per tile?
15:44<@Terkhen>why?
15:45<@Alberth>easier overlaying
15:45<ZxBiohazardZx>Terkhen maybe add optional railway layer? or does that break newgrf again?
15:45<@Alberth>ZxBiohazardZx: scenarios don't have company stuff :)
15:45<ZxBiohazardZx>yeah forgot
15:45<@Terkhen>fair point
15:45<ZxBiohazardZx>old game had "scenario-saves"
15:45<@Terkhen>it would complicate things, though
15:45<@Terkhen>(the easier overlaying thing)
15:45<ZxBiohazardZx>schotland 1945 & the desert one
15:45<ZxBiohazardZx>but they were saves ofc
15:46<ZxBiohazardZx>airports in case we ever get town-owned-airports of the ground?
15:46<ZxBiohazardZx>(also why was that not possible again?)
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15:46<ZxBiohazardZx>town-owned-stations in general for that matter
15:46<@Alberth>probably due to blocking
15:46<@Alberth>just like infra sharing
15:46<ZxBiohazardZx>ah nvm it requires the non-trunked IS sharing
15:46<ZxBiohazardZx>yeah
15:47<ZxBiohazardZx>is-sharing is epic though
15:47<@Alberth>if you have co-operative players, yeah
15:48<@Alberth>yet you already see havoc at unsupervised MP games without IS
15:48<@Terkhen>I'll gladly let whoever codes IS the town stations in extended heightmap problems :)
15:48<@Alberth>imagine the mess if you add IS :)
15:48<ZxBiohazardZx>for me is isnt that much of an issue but yeah
15:49<ZxBiohazardZx>i play IS coop though :P
15:49<ZxBiohazardZx>Terkhen maybe change Tropical Layer to "climate layer"
15:49<ZxBiohazardZx>as then you can also integrate snowline etc for artic
15:50<@Terkhen>snowline is part of the general data
15:50<ZxBiohazardZx>treeline (no trees in colored parts?)
15:50<@Terkhen>but I agree, the name could be changed for "future compatibility"
15:50<ZxBiohazardZx>what in tropical layer isnt
15:51<ZxBiohazardZx>k
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15:52<ZxBiohazardZx>also for the industry thing
15:52<ZxBiohazardZx>maybe make it optional param
15:53<ZxBiohazardZx>if not provided then manual place your shizzles
15:53<@Terkhen>for industries I want a single, universal solution
15:53<ZxBiohazardZx>if provided baseset then you can use pre-placed
15:53<@Terkhen>universal == newgrf agnostic
15:53<ZxBiohazardZx>yeah thats gonna be an issue with newgrfs changing them up so much
15:54<ZxBiohazardZx>there is no standard, if you play with only certain ECS vectors or FIRS you have completely different industries then baseset
15:54<ZxBiohazardZx>so yeah, tricky indeed
15:54<ZxBiohazardZx>i assume trees are part of terrain
15:54<ZxBiohazardZx>as we also have tree-changing-grfs :P
15:55<@Terkhen>ideally, the newgrf agnostic method would give great results if you use the same industry newgrf set, and not so great results if you change it
15:55<@Terkhen>I don't think it's possible to do something better than that
15:55<ZxBiohazardZx>hmmz fair enough
15:55<ZxBiohazardZx>id put my signature up for anything that gives me the option of changing newgrfs for scenarios i play
15:55<ZxBiohazardZx>usually different townsets/roadsets/bridgesets
15:56<ZxBiohazardZx>maybe save industries on diff file/object that can be removed/purged if loaded with non-linked file?
15:56<ZxBiohazardZx>aka if i create scn on ECS but dont load it, it has 0 industries and does not error about it
15:57<ZxBiohazardZx>and i can manually place/fund/whatever industries if i truely need them?
15:57<ZxBiohazardZx>new format will require the newgrf-selection to be a primairy part before playing/opening the scenario :P
15:57<ZxBiohazardZx>aka the menu gui revamp someone mentioned
15:58<@Terkhen>since the new scenario format also lets you decide which settings and advanced settings you want to use
15:58<@Terkhen>you could recreate industries in any way you want
15:59<ZxBiohazardZx>yeah currently reloading newgrfs in a running game is horribad
15:59<ZxBiohazardZx>so the loading/starting a scenario with newformat needs a obligatory selection ofc
15:59<ZxBiohazardZx>but other then that its a great suggestion
15:59<ZxBiohazardZx>cant wait to see it work :P
15:59<ZxBiohazardZx>wish i could help, but i cant code for shit :)
16:02<@Terkhen>the patch itself is relatively simple, Alberth already coded the complicated part
16:02<ZxBiohazardZx>Terkhen what is needed?
16:02<@Terkhen>what is difficult is that it is quite big, and thinking what is needed to code and how to split it in small, manageable parts will be a PITA
16:02<@Terkhen>so... what is needed is time :)
16:04<ZxBiohazardZx>:P good old time :(
16:05<@Terkhen>:P
16:05<NGC3982>http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/532254_10150931033196466_1560544010_n.jpg
16:05<NGC3982>NGC1850
16:07<@Terkhen>that's your cousin?
16:07<@Terkhen>time for dinner, bbl
16:07<NGC3982>indeed, it is.
16:07<NGC3982>hey, a shot in the dark
16:07<NGC3982>the word "brio"
16:07-!-ZxBiohazardZx [~IceChat77@5ED05D6D.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.]
16:08<NGC3982>used in the older british language
16:08<NGC3982>what does it mean? i fail to find references on it.
16:08<NGC3982>except eddie izzard in oceans' thirteen.
16:08<NGC3982>..
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16:43*FLHerne gets stuck on multitile objects
16:44<FLHerne>Anyone know how which bit of documentation I need to look at?
16:47<@Terkhen>NewGRF/NML specs?
16:48<FLHerne>I sort of guessed that bit. Looked at Spriteset, Spritelayout and Item, but can't find what I'm looking for :-(
16:52<frosch123>there is a property to set the size
16:52<frosch123>and number of views
16:52<frosch123>and there is a variable for switches to make stuff depend on the position within the object
16:52<FLHerne>Ah. The third bit is what I need :-)
16:53*FLHerne looks it up
16:55<FLHerne>So I give relative_pos to a switch block to specify which graphics are drawn for each tile?
16:56<FLHerne>Or did I completely misread that? :P
16:57-!-pjpe [ae5f3d1d@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
17:00<frosch123>correct
17:01<FLHerne>Thanks :-)
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17:26<LordAro>evening
17:31<@Terkhen>good night
17:34<@planetmaker>g'night Terkhen
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18:31*FLHerne tries to decide between NML and sleep :P
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18:34<LordAro>sleep. everytime.
18:34*planetmaker suggests sleep and NML. In that order ;-)
18:35<FLHerne>Ah well, tomorrow's Sunday :P
18:35*FLHerne makes some tea
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18:40<Wolf01>'night
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19:46*NGC3982 makes lemonade.
19:54<FLHerne>Which timezone?
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19:55<FLHerne>Seems odd to make lemonade in the middle of the night :P
19:55<Eddi|zuHause>how does lemonade depend on time zones?
19:56<FLHerne>I just can't imagine wanting to drink lemonade while sitting at a keyboard in a pitch-dark room at 1 am :P
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20:09<Elukka>i could
20:13<V453000>hm, why could I be getting bananas error "A pack can contain only one license file." with this file? :o
20:13<V453000>A pack can contain only one license file.
20:13<V453000>zz
20:14<V453000>https://dl.dropbox.com/u/20419525/nuts022.zip
20:14<V453000>there is just one license file
20:14<V453000>just like in all other previous versions
20:14<V453000>does anyone know what to do with that please?
20:18*FLHerne finds a bug in KATE
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20:18<FLHerne>It segfaults when deleting hidden (codefolded) lines :-(
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---Logclosed Sun Jul 15 00:00:12 2012