| --- | Log | opened Sun Jul 15 00:00:13 2012 |
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| 02:43 | <@planetmaker> | V453000: have you selected any other than 'custom' license? |
| 02:44 | <@planetmaker> | moin all :-) |
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| 03:38 | -!- | mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ |
| 03:39 | <@Alberth> | moin |
| 03:39 | <@Terkhen> | good morning |
| 03:40 | <LordAro> | mornings |
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| 03:50 | <@Alberth> | lo andy |
| 03:57 | <@planetmaker> | moin Alberth, LordAro |
| 03:57 | <@Alberth> | moin pm |
| 03:57 | <LordAro> | hi pm, andy |
| 03:59 | <andythenorth> | bonjour |
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| 04:05 | <@planetmaker> | salut andythenorth |
| 04:17 | * | andythenorth ponders FISH |
| 04:20 | * | Alberth ponders cargo monitoring |
| 04:20 | <andythenorth> | ? |
| 04:20 | <andythenorth> | sounds interesting |
| 04:23 | <@Alberth> | monitoring of cargo pickup & delivery by a company for game scripts :) |
| 04:23 | <andythenorth> | sounds good |
| 04:24 | <andythenorth> | how fine grained (i.e. where would you monitor?) |
| 04:24 | <andythenorth> | per station? per accepting / producing tile? |
| 04:24 | <@Alberth> | same as subsidies basically |
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| 04:26 | <Wolf01> | hello o/ |
| 04:26 | <@Alberth> | in particular pax is very hard to get to deliver to the 'right' place |
| 04:26 | <@Alberth> | hello Wolf01 |
| 04:29 | <andythenorth> | Alberth: you need a cargo routing algorithm :) |
| 04:29 | <andythenorth> | NewDispatcher |
| 04:29 | <@Alberth> | nope, I just monitor where you bring it :) |
| 04:29 | * | andythenorth watches Alberth duck the routing idea :P |
| 04:29 | <andythenorth> | maybe someone else would do it |
| 04:30 | <@Alberth> | it's an intriguing problem, and I do want to have a go at it some day, but not in the near future |
| 04:31 | <@Alberth> | I feel cargo sources and destinations is not the right approach |
| 04:31 | <@Alberth> | the trouble is now, what is? :) |
| 04:33 | <@Alberth> | The steps in-between don't care where cargo comes from or goes to, ie they are generic transport services. Yet we push a source/target onto them, which makes the problem explode, as there are many sources/target combinations |
| 04:34 | <@Alberth> | Ie I want flow without the combinatorial explosion in cpu time |
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| 04:49 | <andythenorth> | Alberth: 'flow' is also what I seek |
| 04:50 | <andythenorth> | my ideas for approximating 'downhill' are based on looking only at next step |
| 04:50 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 04:51 | <andythenorth> | if I knew more about vector maths, it could be done that way |
| 04:51 | <andythenorth> | cargo should take any available vector that is 'towards' the destination |
| 04:51 | * | andythenorth goes back to ships |
| 04:51 | <andythenorth> | water in rivers doesn't need to know where it's going |
| 04:51 | <andythenorth> | it just goes down gradient |
| 04:51 | <andythenorth> | voltage doesn't know where it's 'going' |
| 04:52 | <andythenorth> | it just goes down the difference gradient |
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| 04:52 | <telanus> | helllo |
| 04:53 | <telanus> | quick question: what is a viewport? |
| 04:53 | <Zuu> | hello |
| 04:53 | <telanus> | busy translating and not sure what is meant |
| 04:53 | <Zuu> | there are two types of them. There is the one at the back of your screen that show the landscape |
| 04:54 | <Zuu> | There is also the extra viewports that open up in a window |
| 04:55 | <telanus> | might be the landskape one. translating this: The maximum zoom-in level for viewports ........... |
| 04:59 | <@Alberth> | all viewports display part of the landscape :) |
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| 05:05 | <@Alberth> | andy, local checking only has no idea of where it is going. |
| 05:05 | <@Alberth> | which makes it miss "destinations" :) |
| 05:09 | <andythenorth> | it's on a specific 'gradient' |
| 05:09 | <andythenorth> | the gradient is towards a specific destination |
| 05:10 | <andythenorth> | still requires a path-solving routine to run at [some frequency] to cache the gradient |
| 05:10 | <@Alberth> | flow is destination specific ? that explodes, doesn't it? |
| 05:10 | <andythenorth> | dunno |
| 05:10 | <andythenorth> | vehicles seem to route ok |
| 05:10 | <andythenorth> | without exploding |
| 05:10 | <@Alberth> | until you hit the CPU ceiling :) |
| 05:10 | <andythenorth> | you end up with a gradient for every cargo-destination pair |
| 05:11 | <@Alberth> | and there are a lot more cargo packets :) |
| 05:11 | <andythenorth> | but you can discard the source |
| 05:11 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 05:11 | <andythenorth> | migrating ship stats accurately to nml is tedious :P |
| 05:12 | <@Alberth> | why? |
| 05:12 | <@Alberth> | ie what is nml missing? |
| 05:14 | <andythenorth> | an assistant for me |
| 05:14 | <andythenorth> | I have three sources as well: tracking table, nfo, and I have to check the old grf in game for some stats |
| 05:14 | <andythenorth> | new nml package: nml.assistant |
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| 05:26 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 05:27 | <andythenorth> | not being able to set costs directly |
| 05:27 | <andythenorth> | needs some thought |
| 05:28 | <andythenorth> | I need to know the most expensive ship in the set, so I can find the scale for 0-255 cost factor :P |
| 05:28 | <andythenorth> | but the most expensive ship might not be added yet :P |
| 05:29 | <@Alberth> | sounds like a sucky design to me :p |
| 05:30 | <andythenorth> | kind of necessary |
| 05:31 | <andythenorth> | so you can have variable base costs I guess |
| 05:32 | * | Alberth very much believes computers are much better in administrative tasks |
| 05:33 | <andythenorth> | +1 |
| 05:34 | <andythenorth> | btw, the nml missing-string patch was essential :) |
| 05:34 | <andythenorth> | using the errors a lot right now |
| 05:35 | <@Alberth> | it is fixed afaik :) |
| 05:35 | <andythenorth> | yes |
| 05:35 | <andythenorth> | that's what I meant ;) |
| 05:36 | <@Alberth> | any tool not given sane feedback to its users does not deserve to be used imho |
| 05:36 | <@Alberth> | *giving |
| 05:37 | <@Alberth> | unfortunately, many users accept it without even reporting it as bug |
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| 05:45 | <Wolf01> | http://englishrussia.com/2012/07/11/locomotive-vs-car/ they might need to replace just a couple of pieces... |
| 05:46 | <@Alberth> | the gravel won :) |
| 05:47 | <NGC3982> | too bad it hit the trailer, and not the truck. |
| 05:47 | <andythenorth> | in soviet russia... |
| 05:47 | <NGC3982> | did the driver survive? |
| 05:48 | <NGC3982> | .."He probably escape to engine section - normal procedure in danger." |
| 05:53 | * | andythenorth wonders what nml is doing with ship running costs |
| 05:53 | <andythenorth> | I get an exciting $492/yr no matter which values I try for the action 0 prop |
| 05:54 | <andythenorth> | I haven't adjusted any base cost yet |
| 05:57 | <andythenorth> | local bug I think |
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| 07:33 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 07:33 | <andythenorth> | so my FISH buy menu is pretty crappy |
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| 07:34 | <andythenorth> | http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3125/FISH_buy_menu.png |
| 07:34 | <andythenorth> | fixing it is a simple matter of setting x, y values in the config file (plain text) |
| 07:35 | <andythenorth> | want to help? |
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| 07:38 | <ZxBiohazardZx> | Andy i didtn ahve that issue before, what did you change lol |
| 07:41 | <andythenorth> | recoded to nml |
| 07:42 | <andythenorth> | removed use of setx which is unofficially deprecated |
| 07:42 | <ZxBiohazardZx> | aha |
| 07:42 | <andythenorth> | and should be deprecated, but cowardice prevents that :P |
| 07:44 | <ZxBiohazardZx> | cant you use the old x-y offsets though? |
| 07:44 | <ZxBiohazardZx> | aka copy-paste into new format |
| 07:45 | <andythenorth> | no, the space in the menu is narrower |
| 07:45 | <@planetmaker> | lol :-) andythenorth |
| 07:46 | <andythenorth> | setx is not allowed to be implemented in nml, because it's unwanted, despite being in spec |
| 07:46 | <@planetmaker> | The cut-away-the-cobs attitude sometimes is really refreshing :-) |
| 07:46 | <andythenorth> | but nobody wants to change spec because newgrf authors will whine |
| 07:46 | <andythenorth> | so we have the odd situation where nml *refuses* to support the newgrf spec |
| 07:46 | <@planetmaker> | :-) yup |
| 07:47 | <@planetmaker> | it's by far not the only point where NML does not support every contingency |
| 07:47 | <@planetmaker> | For the same or similar reasons |
| 07:47 | <andythenorth> | meh |
| 07:47 | <@planetmaker> | But maybe, it should be announced that a thing like XYZ will be deprecated in the upcoming major release or so |
| 07:48 | <@planetmaker> | Like "you got 9 months to fix it" |
| 07:48 | <andythenorth> | just knock it out of next newgrf spec major version? |
| 07:48 | <andythenorth> | what's next? v9? |
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| 07:49 | * | andythenorth -> food |
| 07:50 | <@planetmaker> | for a v9 it needs imho more changes. Like grf v8 also accumulated. Actually over years |
| 07:58 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the buy menu needs a configurable width by misc parameter, similar to the depot offset. |
| 07:58 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the maximum over all GRFs is taken |
| 07:59 | <Eddi|zuHause> | (per vehicle type) |
| 08:06 | <NGC3982> | how is current data saved in the game, as i progresses? for instance, in case one would wish to parse current economy statistics to a third party software. |
| 08:10 | <Eddi|zuHause> | NGC3982: the savegame format is a compressed RIFF format, each chunk has a handler in src/saveload/*.cpp |
| 08:10 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the explicit format of the data differs from chunk to chunk |
| 08:11 | <Eddi|zuHause> | NGC3982: if you don't want to mess with the compression, you can write in your .cfg that you want to make uncompressed savegames |
| 08:20 | <@planetmaker> | and: the actual format of each chunk may change between revs without notice. |
| 08:20 | <andythenorth> | Eddi|zuHause: I think the buy menu sprite should be fixed to current size |
| 08:21 | <Eddi|zuHause> | andythenorth: i disagree. |
| 08:21 | <andythenorth> | when grfs use different sizes, the ragged edge is horrible |
| 08:21 | <Eddi|zuHause> | andythenorth: some flexibility is needed |
| 08:21 | <Eddi|zuHause> | andythenorth: especially with road vehicles (without road-wagons) |
| 08:21 | <andythenorth> | so what do you need that setx doesn't provide? |
| 08:22 | <Eddi|zuHause> | andythenorth: that's the point of the "width" parameter, if you take the maximum over all grfs, there is no ragged edge |
| 08:22 | <andythenorth> | point |
| 08:23 | <andythenorth> | some sprites will be floating a long way from their name string though |
| 08:24 | <Eddi|zuHause> | whether there should be a maximum is a different discussion |
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| 08:24 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and the sprites could be right-aligned |
| 08:24 | <andythenorth> | I don't fancy handling bug reports due to the behaviour of other grfs |
| 08:25 | <Eddi|zuHause> | (but that won't help with rtl-languages) |
| 08:25 | <andythenorth> | sprites are centred in the buy menu |
| 08:25 | <andythenorth> | are / should be according to the game style /s |
| 08:25 | <andythenorth> | some grfs do it wrong and left-align |
| 08:26 | * | andythenorth is feeling didactic, but is prepared to lose that point :P |
| 08:26 | <Eddi|zuHause> | CETS sprites are left aligned without any special handling. the default vehicles all have the same length |
| 08:27 | <Eddi|zuHause> | (double headed vehicles are "magic") |
| 08:28 | <Eddi|zuHause> | but some of the longer wagons overlap with the text |
| 08:28 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and there is no "sane" solution for that currently |
| 08:28 | <andythenorth> | nor for FISH |
| 08:29 | <andythenorth> | te |
| 08:29 | <andythenorth> | the larger ships - there's no useful crop for them to current buy menu sprite size |
| 08:29 | <andythenorth> | http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3125/FISH_buy_menu.png |
| 08:29 | <andythenorth> | e.g. Shannon Freighter |
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| 08:39 | <NGC3982> | Eddi|zuHause: i think i understand. tho, a chunk seems to represent several actions and changes (and cant thus be usdd to collect real time changes?) |
| 08:40 | <Eddi|zuHause> | NGC3982: no. a chunk groups the information by type (i.e. all industries are gathered in one chunk, all trains in another chunk, etc.) |
| 08:40 | <Eddi|zuHause> | NGC3982: savegames are not "realtime" and you cannot construct the history out of them |
| 08:40 | <NGC3982> | ah, i see. |
| 08:42 | <NGC3982> | im getting my head around parsing data in our business systems, and making a third party client that connects to a server and collect economy statistics looked like a fun thing to start with. |
| 08:44 | <+michi_cc> | NGC3982: That's called admin port (http://svn.openttd.org/trunk/docs/admin_network.txt) and not savegame. |
| 08:45 | * | NGC3982 has a look |
| 08:45 | <andythenorth> | so any bright ideas for fixing FISH buy menu? :P |
| 08:45 | * | andythenorth is bamboozled |
| 08:46 | <NGC3982> | ah. |
| 08:46 | <NGC3982> | perfect. exactly what i was looking for. |
| 08:47 | <NGC3982> | we play a lot of ttd amongst the supervisors, and i want to integrate server data in our business system. |
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| 08:51 | <andythenorth> | quak |
| 08:51 | <frosch123> | moin |
| 08:53 | <MNIM> | oink |
| 08:53 | <FLHerne> | How does CC recolouring work with objects in NML? |
| 08:53 | * | FLHerne fails to understand the documentation again |
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| 09:00 | <Hirundo> | FLHerne: I assume you use the 'colour' callback, what do you not understand about that? |
| 09:01 | <FLHerne> | How to use it for stuff :P New to NML... |
| 09:02 | <Hirundo> | FLHerne: what are you trying to achieve? |
| 09:02 | <FLHerne> | There's stuff about colour translation pallettes, and recolour sprites, and various other stuff, and I'm not quite understanding how it all fits together :P |
| 09:03 | <FLHerne> | Just trying to get cc bits on objects to match the company colour, nothing fancy :-( |
| 09:05 | <Hirundo> | you should set recolour_mode to RECOLOUR_REMAP and palette to PALETTE_USE_DEFAULT in the sptirelayout sprites you want recoloured |
| 09:06 | * | FLHerne looks |
| 09:06 | <Hirundo> | RECOLOUR_REMAP enables recolouring for the sprite |
| 09:06 | <FLHerne> | Ah, now I see :D |
| 09:06 | <Hirundo> | PALETTE_USE_DEFAULT tells OpenTTD to use the default recolour sprite, which for objects is 1 CC |
| 09:07 | <FLHerne> | Got confused by looking at stuff I didn't need to know about :P |
| 09:07 | <Hirundo> | (or if enabled by the respective flag, 2 CC) |
| 09:07 | <FLHerne> | Thanks :-) |
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| 09:15 | * | andythenorth ponders autorefits |
| 09:16 | <andythenorth> | vehicle ferries: refit anything |
| 09:16 | <andythenorth> | automatically |
| 09:17 | <andythenorth> | freight ships: autorefit if same class? |
| 09:17 | <andythenorth> | makes no sense for lots of cargos, but meh :P |
| 09:20 | <andythenorth> | e.g. scrap metal would be autorefittable to sugar beet |
| 09:20 | <andythenorth> | clay would be autorefittable to wheat |
| 09:21 | <andythenorth> | oil autorefittable to milk :P |
| 09:21 | <andythenorth> | should I do label based checks? |
| 09:22 | <FLHerne> | Probably |
| 09:22 | <frosch123> | andythenorth: just please make auto-refitting symmetrical |
| 09:22 | <frosch123> | else the gameplay will be horrible |
| 09:23 | <andythenorth> | in which respect? |
| 09:23 | <FLHerne> | I was going to say that :P |
| 09:23 | <andythenorth> | oil <-> milk |
| 09:23 | <frosch123> | don't allow refitting from sugar beet to scrap metal, if the reverse is not allowed |
| 09:23 | <frosch123> | else a mixed line will end up with only scrap metal vehicles at some point |
| 09:23 | <FLHerne> | UKRS2 allows you to refit, say, sugarbeet to wood but not wood to sugarbeet. Confusing and breaks things :-( |
| 09:25 | <frosch123> | i.e. make refittability use real equivalency classes |
| 09:25 | <frosch123> | symmetrical and transitive |
| 09:25 | -!- | Elukka [Elukka@78-27-97-92.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd |
| 09:26 | <andythenorth> | how should I implement that? |
| 09:26 | * | andythenorth is happy to |
| 09:27 | <frosch123> | either label based or only allow refitting between exactly same cargoclasses |
| 09:27 | <frosch123> | resp. ignore one class completely |
| 09:28 | <frosch123> | if you allow bulk<->oversized and bulk<->powderized, you also have to allow oversized<->powderized |
| 09:28 | <andythenorth> | and if I only allow in same class? |
| 09:28 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 09:28 | <andythenorth> | on a three hop journey |
| 09:28 | <frosch123> | you must compare all classes then |
| 09:29 | <andythenorth> | [BULK, PIECE] -> [PIECE] -> [PIECE, REFRIGERATED] -> [REFRIGERATED] |
| 09:29 | <frosch123> | else you can refit bulk -> bulk+powder -> powder and not get back to bulk |
| 09:29 | <andythenorth> | four hops, no more refit |
| 09:29 | <andythenorth> | pathological case? I think not :P |
| 09:29 | <andythenorth> | refit all? |
| 09:29 | <andythenorth> | easier :P |
| 09:29 | <frosch123> | boring :p |
| 09:30 | <frosch123> | better allow a vehicle to only carry bulk |
| 09:30 | <frosch123> | and no powder ever |
| 09:31 | <MNIM> | 0-o |
| 09:31 | <MNIM> | dude |
| 09:31 | <MNIM> | since when does mint have rolling updates on it's non-debian versions? |
| 09:32 | <FLHerne> | It doesn't, does it? :o |
| 09:32 | <MNIM> | well |
| 09:33 | <MNIM> | I was very pleasantly surprised when I just checked and it turns out I installed the most recent version of OTTD via it's software manager. |
| 09:33 | <Sacro> | MNIM: its |
| 09:33 | <frosch123> | @topic get -2 |
| 09:33 | <@DorpsGek> | frosch123: 'Latest' is not a valid version, ever |
| 09:34 | <frosch123> | 'most recent' is not either |
| 09:34 | <telanus> | nightly? |
| 09:34 | <telanus> | :p |
| 09:34 | <frosch123> | @topic set -2 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither |
| 09:34 | -!- | DorpsGek changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.2.1 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only |
| 09:34 | <MNIM> | Sacro: ouch. It's/Its is one of those things in the english language I still do wrong |
| 09:35 | <MNIM> | telanus: well, the latest stable, 1.2.1 according to the site |
| 09:35 | <Sacro> | MNIM: it is -> it's, belonging to it -> its |
| 09:35 | <frosch123> | sometimes there are also generic nightly packages, which grab the newest source from openttd.org whenever you update them |
| 09:35 | <MNIM> | yeah, I know the theory, I just keep doing it WRONG >.< |
| 09:36 | -!- | cyph3r [~Miranda@ip-78-45-93-108.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd |
| 09:37 | * | andythenorth thinks ships refit anything, automatically |
| 09:37 | <andythenorth> | maybe I should split the tanker sprites to separate IDs |
| 09:37 | <andythenorth> | despite they have same hull, stats etc |
| 09:37 | * | telanus always plays with the latest nightly :D |
| 09:38 | <andythenorth> | tankers -> refit any liquid |
| 09:38 | <andythenorth> | not tanker -> refit anything except liquid |
| 09:38 | <telanus> | that could work |
| 09:38 | * | andythenorth refrigerated class? |
| 09:39 | <frosch123> | refridgerated oil |
| 09:39 | <andythenorth> | refrigerated LNG :P |
| 09:39 | <andythenorth> | I don't really want to spam the buy menu with tankers |
| 09:39 | <andythenorth> | but maybe I should |
| 09:43 | <andythenorth> | if (liquid): auto-refit only if liquid |
| 09:43 | <andythenorth> | else: refit any |
| 09:43 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 09:44 | <andythenorth> | that has some horrible edge cases with (liquid + something else) |
| 09:44 | <andythenorth> | this sucks doesn't it :) |
| 09:44 | <andythenorth> | I need storage on the vehicle |
| 09:46 | <andythenorth> | Eddi|zuHause: ^ you are good at thorny problems |
| 09:46 | <@Terkhen> | andythenorth: tanker, passenger, anything else |
| 09:47 | <andythenorth> | should I just spam the buy menu with tankers? |
| 09:47 | <@Terkhen> | no, use autorefit |
| 09:47 | <@Terkhen> | a ship can refit to all cargos |
| 09:47 | <andythenorth> | my thinking too |
| 09:47 | <@Terkhen> | autorefitting between cargos of the same group is free |
| 09:47 | <andythenorth> | how do you define group? |
| 09:47 | <Eddi|zuHause> | andythenorth: if passengers, refit to passengers, if liquid refit to liquid, if non-liquid refit to non-liquid and non-passenger |
| 09:47 | <@Terkhen> | refitting between cargos of different groups has a cost and must be done at a shipyard |
| 09:48 | <@Terkhen> | andythenorth: tanker, passenger, anything else would be the groups in this case |
| 09:48 | <andythenorth> | so exact match of classes? |
| 09:48 | * | andythenorth is puzzled how to implement |
| 09:48 | <@Terkhen> | check ogfx-rv readme, that's how I did groups |
| 09:48 | <andythenorth> | maybe I can store something on the animation frame |
| 09:48 | <Eddi|zuHause> | no, exact match of the "passenger" and "liquid" classes, don't-care on all others |
| 09:48 | * | Terkhen implements it based on cargo labels |
| 09:48 | <andythenorth> | so 'liquid' can't refit to 'liquid, refrigerated' ? |
| 09:49 | <Eddi|zuHause> | it can, because refrigerated is "don't care" |
| 09:49 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 09:49 | <andythenorth> | people who don't want vehicles 'stuck' in a certain class - shouldn't use autorefit |
| 09:49 | <andythenorth> | ? |
| 09:51 | <andythenorth> | Terkhen: do you maintain lists of clean / dirty cargo labels? |
| 09:51 | <@Terkhen> | andythenorth: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ogfx-rv/repository/entry/docs/readme.ptxt#L79 <--- an explanation of how it works in ogfx-rv |
| 09:51 | <andythenorth> | was reading it ;) |
| 09:52 | <@Terkhen> | andythenorth: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ogfx-rv/repository/entry/src/cargo_definitions.pnml#L122 <--- and the source |
| 09:52 | <@Terkhen> | as I said, I do it label by label |
| 09:52 | <andythenorth> | ok so yes, by label |
| 09:52 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 09:52 | <andythenorth> | you make work for yourself in future? |
| 09:52 | <@Terkhen> | if a new cargo is added, it would need at most a new line for each vehicle :) |
| 09:53 | <andythenorth> | fine |
| 09:53 | <@Terkhen> | I could try to find a cargo class scheme, but this is simpler to understand |
| 09:53 | <andythenorth> | frosch123: I don't see any easy way to guarantee symmetrical refits |
| 09:53 | <@Terkhen> | what do you mean with symmetrical refits? |
| 09:54 | <andythenorth> | basically, a warranty that all your vehicles won't end up autorefitted to scrap metal, with no way out |
| 09:54 | <andythenorth> | for example |
| 09:54 | <andythenorth> | on a four hop order list, you could easily start with cargo x, and have no way back to it |
| 09:54 | <andythenorth> | e.g [BULK, PIECE] -> [PIECE] -> [PIECE, REFRIGERATED] -> [REFRIGERATED] |
| 09:54 | <andythenorth> | can't get back to BULK |
| 09:55 | <andythenorth> | so your route breaks |
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| 09:56 | <frosch123> | andythenorth: you have to limit the clases you check |
| 09:57 | <andythenorth> | example? :) |
| 09:57 | * | andythenorth thinks there will be a pathological case for every scheme |
| 09:57 | <frosch123> | if you have a specific rule to allow refitting piece to piece, you have to forbid refitting non-piece to piece and vice versa |
| 09:58 | <frosch123> | so, you can make one vehicle which carries all piece goods and can refit between them |
| 09:58 | <frosch123> | but it may not carry anything non-piece |
| 09:59 | <frosch123> | simliar you can make a vehicle that can carry refridgerated stuff, but it may not carry non-refridged stuff |
| 09:59 | <Eddi|zuHause> | andythenorth: example 1 above is "ignore piece/bulk differences", example 2 would be, you have a "main" class for the ship, e.g. "piece" then you can refit to from "piece" to "piece, bulk" and vice versa, but not from "piece, bulk" to "bulk" |
| 10:01 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 10:01 | * | andythenorth is going to do some driving for 2 hours, that often produces an answer |
| 10:01 | <andythenorth> | currently, it looks like adding tankers to the set might be the best solution |
| 10:01 | <andythenorth> | the issue with tankers is that they have completely different graphics, I don't want them changing at stations |
| 10:01 | <andythenorth> | that adds ~20 ships to the buy menu :P |
| 10:02 | <Eddi|zuHause> | andythenorth: the idea was that anything that has "liquid" [and any other combination] cargo class can refit, and anything that has "not liquid" [and any combination] can refit |
| 10:03 | <Eddi|zuHause> | so "piece,liquid" will be counted as liquid in all cases |
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| 10:04 | <andythenorth> | k, bbl |
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| 11:03 | <frosch123> | V453000: try bananas upload again |
| 11:05 | <MNIM> | andy, you're the one that makes FIRS, right? |
| 11:07 | <LordAro> | why is it that to install doxygen i have to get ~500MB of archives?? |
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| 11:14 | -!- | HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6DE4D.versanet.de] has joined #openttd |
| 11:15 | <frosch123> | maybe it contains the docs of everything |
| 11:15 | -!- | flaa [~flaa@188.141.45.124] has joined #openttd |
| 11:18 | <Eddi|zuHause> | 42.zip? :) |
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| 11:21 | -!- | LordAro is now known as Guest3212 |
| 11:21 | -!- | Lord_Aro is now known as LordAro |
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| 11:40 | <cyph3r> | Is OpenTTDCoop on this server? |
| 11:40 | <cyph3r> | I mean IRC. |
| 11:41 | <Zuu> | #openttdcoop |
| 11:42 | <Zuu> | you could try "!password" here to get a prompt message about it :-) |
| 11:42 | <cyph3r> | !password |
| 11:42 | -!- | cyph3r was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.] |
| 11:42 | -!- | cyph3r [~Miranda@ip-78-45-93-108.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd |
| 11:42 | * | Alberth slaps Zuu :) |
| 11:42 | <cyph3r> | Zuu : not cool :-D |
| 11:43 | <Zuu> | :-) |
| 11:43 | <Zuu> | well at least I warned you |
| 11:44 | <cyph3r> | Yes, kick without a warning would be unpleasant. |
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| 11:58 | <ZxBiohazardZx> | lol |
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| 12:17 | <CIA-4> | OpenTTD: frosch * r24402 /trunk/src/ (elrail.cpp newgrf_station.cpp station_cmd.cpp station_func.h): -Fix [FS#5243]: Station properties 11 and 14 were combined incorrectly. |
| 12:18 | <CIA-4> | OpenTTD: frosch * r24403 /trunk/src/elrail.cpp: -Fix: Draw wires under low bridges if the bridge is transparent, not if the wire is transparent. |
| 12:25 | -!- | Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host81-154-231-254.range81-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd |
| 12:26 | <LordAro> | funny how sometimes, you find ancient bugs that you wonder why no one noticed before :) |
| 12:27 | -!- | M1zera [~Miranda@ip-78-102-217-126.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd |
| 12:34 | <andythenorth> | vehicles don't have an animation frame? |
| 12:34 | <andythenorth> | they have to rely on the motion counter? |
| 12:34 | <frosch123> | they have time and motion counter |
| 12:34 | <frosch123> | they have no persistent storage |
| 12:35 | <andythenorth> | k |
| 12:35 | <andythenorth> | I thought we'd have abused it by now if there was animation frame :P |
| 12:36 | <Chris_Booth> | hi |
| 12:37 | <andythenorth> | using a trackpad is harder with a toddler sitting on your forearm |
| 12:39 | <andythenorth> | the refit issue I have with FISH is another manifestion of 'cargo subtypes are a bad hack' |
| 12:39 | <andythenorth> | at least for changing the physical properties of the vehicle |
| 12:40 | * | andythenorth has ideas |
| 12:40 | <andythenorth> | (1) vehicles get storage; never seems to get resolved if we like this or not |
| 12:41 | <andythenorth> | (2) give buy menu 'categories', same as for stations; then group vehicles by category ('Tankers', 'Cargo Ships') etc |
| 12:41 | -!- | KouDy [~KouDy@115.133.13.128] has joined #openttd |
| 12:41 | <andythenorth> | (3) continue to use subtype as a hack, but introduce a new magic cargo for use in refit menu, which is equivalent to 'any valid refittable cargo' |
| 12:42 | <andythenorth> | which would allow things like 'Any valid refittable cargo for tanker', 'Any valid refittable cargo for general cargo vessel' |
| 12:42 | <andythenorth> | (4) spam the buy menu |
| 12:43 | <frosch123> | the buy menu is only spammed if people do not use the retire early property |
| 12:44 | <andythenorth> | I should learn how that works :P |
| 12:44 | * | andythenorth is leaning towards 'add ship IDs for tankers' |
| 12:44 | <andythenorth> | probably also 'reefers' and 'livestock carriers' |
| 12:45 | <andythenorth> | FISH already has 30 ships or so |
| 12:45 | <andythenorth> | dunno another 20 really enhances it :| |
| 12:47 | <FLHerne> | It'll never be as bad as eGRVTS, so go ahead :P |
| 12:47 | <frosch123> | i think whenever i played fish, all ships were already available |
| 12:47 | <frosch123> | i did never noticed anyone being introduced new |
| 12:47 | <frosch123> | are all introdates before 1920? |
| 12:47 | <frosch123> | or after 1980? |
| 12:48 | <FLHerne> | More variety would definitely be nice :-) |
| 12:50 | <FLHerne> | Is using multiple industry sets a universal [no], or would it be possible to have industry sets that were compatible? |
| 12:50 | <andythenorth> | all intro dates are 1870 for FISH |
| 12:50 | <andythenorth> | industry sets could be compatible via co-operation between authors |
| 12:51 | <andythenorth> | I'm going to cut down the scope of FISH to start around 1920 |
| 12:51 | <andythenorth> | the long game is over-rated |
| 12:51 | <andythenorth> | but I remain puzzled about autorefit |
| 12:54 | <FLHerne> | andythenorth: :-( |
| 12:54 | <FLHerne> | Long games are the best kind :P |
| 13:05 | <CIA-4> | OpenTTD: alberth * r24404 /trunk/ (8 files in 3 dirs): -Add: Data structures for cargo transport monitoring. |
| 13:07 | <CIA-4> | OpenTTD: alberth * r24405 /trunk/ (8 files in 4 dirs): -Add: Save and load of active cargo monitors. |
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| 13:11 | <CIA-4> | OpenTTD: alberth * r24406 /trunk/ (7 files in 5 dirs): -Feature: Allow game scripts to monitor cargo pickups and deliveries done by companies. |
| 13:12 | <@Alberth> | with many thanks to Zuu for his assistance |
| 13:12 | <Zuu> | nice :-) |
| 13:12 | <ZxBiohazardZx> | i think FISH covers the modern era quite well with different sized ships |
| 13:14 | <ZxBiohazardZx> | it could use some older boats/barges though, smaller steam ones or early diesels with smaller capacity (think english narrow-canalboats, the pulled from shore boats (using horsed usually) etc etc |
| 13:18 | <andythenorth> | currently FISH is beached |
| 13:20 | <andythenorth> | stuck on: buy menu + autorefit |
| 13:21 | <FLHerne> | andythenorth: Buy menu looks a pain. What's up with autorefit? |
| 13:22 | <andythenorth> | no sane scheme to make it work |
| 13:23 | <FLHerne> | andythenorth: Is that concept or implementation? Or both? :P |
| 13:23 | <andythenorth> | concept |
| 13:24 | * | FLHerne thinks |
| 13:24 | <andythenorth> | I'll probably use the idea from Eddi|zuHause |
| 13:25 | <andythenorth> | I do in more cases than not |
| 13:28 | <andythenorth> | I could use cargo subtype |
| 13:29 | <V453000> | Hi! I am trying to update my newGRF on bananas and as usual, I add a zip with grf, license, readme and changelog. In compare to the older versions is changed not only .grf file but also readme file a bit. As a result I am getting an error "a package can include only one license file" :o Does anyone know what to do with that please? |
| 13:30 | <+michi_cc> | V453000: Did you try after 17:02 CEST? |
| 13:30 | <V453000> | yesterday, not today |
| 13:30 | <V453000> | will try noaw |
| 13:30 | <FLHerne> | Separate tankers in buy menu/vehicle types. Allow autorefitting between all bulk mineral types. Allow autorefitting between all 'clean' bulk types (grain/beet). Allow depot-only refitting between dirty/clean bulk types. |
| 13:31 | <V453000> | yay it worked now michi_cc :D thanks |
| 13:31 | <V453000> | something changed? |
| 13:31 | <frosch123> | yup :p |
| 13:31 | <frosch123> | since yesterday you can add translated readmes and changelogs |
| 13:32 | <frosch123> | since today you can upload custom licenses again :p |
| 13:32 | <V453000> | oh right :) |
| 13:32 | <andythenorth> | autorefit adds a lot of micro-management |
| 13:32 | <andythenorth> | ironically |
| 13:33 | <FLHerne> | Allow autorefitting between refrigerated types. Allow (expensive) depot-only refitting between this and bulk types. |
| 13:33 | <FLHerne> | Allow depot-only refitting between pax and mail. |
| 13:34 | <FLHerne> | Allow autorefit between supplies/timber/metal/goods. Do not allow autorefitting of tankers, but have cheap depot refits. |
| 13:35 | <andythenorth> | how do you satisfy the 'refits must be symmetric' condition? |
| 13:35 | <andythenorth> | grain > clay but ! clay > grain in this scheme ;) |
| 13:35 | <andythenorth> | fails symmetric requirement |
| 13:35 | <FLHerne> | Allow (expensive) depot refit between supplies etc and other no-tanker/non-pax types. There. Done :P |
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| 13:36 | <FLHerne> | andythenorth: No. only depot refit between dirty/clean bulk types :P |
| 13:36 | <andythenorth> | not symmetric :) |
| 13:37 | <FLHerne> | Forbid autorefit from clean -> dirty, not just dirty -> clean |
| 13:37 | * | FLHerne draws diagram |
| 13:37 | <frosch123> | FLHerne: asymmetric refittability sucks for gameplay |
| 13:37 | <frosch123> | though i cannot remember whether you can allow autorefitting and make it cost at the same time |
| 13:39 | <andythenorth> | it's important not to have asymmetric across a chain of refits too |
| 13:39 | <andythenorth> | e.g. one refit might be symmetric, but the classes are also the union of two asymmetric refits |
| 13:40 | <andythenorth> | so you end up with a lof of micromanagement |
| 13:40 | <andythenorth> | because your vehicles a forever getting stuck at stations unable to refit |
| 13:41 | <andythenorth> | a / are /s |
| 13:41 | <FLHerne> | FLHerne: No assymetric autorefits. Just can't explain intelligibly |
| 13:41 | -!- | ZxBiohazardZx [~IceChat77@5ED05D6D.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] |
| 13:43 | * | andythenorth is heading towards 'autorefit any' |
| 13:44 | <frosch123> | you could try making autorefit rediculous expensive :p |
| 13:44 | <frosch123> | refitting oil->water for 10 times is worth a new vehicle |
| 13:45 | <zxbiohazardzx_> | give it a limited number of refits? |
| 13:45 | <zxbiohazardzx_> | aka max refits = X |
| 13:45 | <CIA-4> | OpenTTD: translators * r24407 /trunk/src/lang/ (afrikaans.txt korean.txt): |
| 13:45 | <CIA-4> | OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: |
| 13:45 | <CIA-4> | OpenTTD: afrikaans - 15 changes by telanus |
| 13:45 | <CIA-4> | OpenTTD: korean - 11 changes by telk5093 |
| 13:45 | <andythenorth> | having considered it, I don't like any of this stuff |
| 13:45 | <zxbiohazardzx_> | reduce 1 per refit, when 0 do not allow refitting but insist on new ? |
| 13:45 | <andythenorth> | refit is opaque to the user, there's nothing about it in the GUI |
| 13:45 | <andythenorth> | it's mystery meat |
| 13:46 | <andythenorth> | I don't think playing a guessing game of 'wtf, how does autorefit work' is a fun game |
| 13:46 | <andythenorth> | smells all wrong to me |
| 13:46 | <andythenorth> | Alberth: Terkhen you wanted autorefit in FISH? |
| 13:47 | <zxbiohazardzx_> | would it be possible for eg the rivership to carry coal for 50% and iron for other 50% |
| 13:47 | <@Alberth> | difficult to say, I have had one case where auto-refit would be useful |
| 13:47 | <zxbiohazardzx_> | aka mimic the real-life loading bays inside the ship |
| 13:47 | <andythenorth> | zxbiohazardzx_ if you make two trips, each half-empty, yes |
| 13:47 | <zxbiohazardzx_> | aka multiple cargos within a ship |
| 13:48 | <zxbiohazardzx_> | andythenorth no i suggested to have 1 trip, both cargos in 1 ship |
| 13:48 | <@Alberth> | at the same time :) |
| 13:48 | <andythenorth> | have two smaller ships |
| 13:48 | <zxbiohazardzx_> | no |
| 13:48 | <zxbiohazardzx_> | i want 1 big ship with split cargo option |
| 13:48 | <zxbiohazardzx_> | bulk/bulk |
| 13:48 | <andythenorth> | http://i-want-a-pony.com/ |
| 13:48 | <zxbiohazardzx_> | yeah yeah |
| 13:49 | <andythenorth> | if you provide a patch, it might be accepted |
| 13:49 | <zxbiohazardzx_> | http://www.theworldsworstwebsiteever.com/ |
| 13:49 | <andythenorth> | I'll code newgrf support for it if you add it |
| 13:49 | <zxbiohazardzx_> | hmmz |
| 13:50 | <@Alberth> | andythenorth: so it happens some times, and it would be fun to see how auto-refit would handle it. However, I cannot oversee all consequences of auto-refit, perhaps it makes life too complicated |
| 13:50 | <FLHerne> | andythenorth: I sent you a diagram as a PM |
| 13:51 | <FLHerne> | Is there something like pastebin for images? |
| 13:52 | <zxbiohazardzx_> | imagedump, imageshack or eehm |
| 13:52 | <zxbiohazardzx_> | there was a imagedropper somewhere |
| 13:52 | <zxbiohazardzx_> | imagebin.org |
| 13:54 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 13:54 | <andythenorth> | so FLHerne proposes label based refit |
| 13:54 | <andythenorth> | maybe that's the right answer |
| 13:54 | <FLHerne> | With diagram: http://imagebin.org/220874 :P |
| 13:54 | <FLHerne> | andythenorth: Class-based refits would have strange cases |
| 13:54 | <andythenorth> | label based autorefit would need a class based fallback |
| 13:54 | <andythenorth> | otherwise the grf can't support new cargos |
| 13:55 | <FLHerne> | True. Not that many industry grfs though :P |
| 13:55 | <FLHerne> | Pikkabird's UKRS2 has class-based refits, some of which are totally nonsensical :-( |
| 13:56 | <andythenorth> | so can't refit from e.g. grain to goods - what's the reasoning? |
| 13:56 | <andythenorth> | would need explaining to players |
| 13:56 | <frosch123> | add a translated readme :p |
| 13:56 | <FLHerne> | Grain tends not to come in convenient boxes :P |
| 13:56 | <zxbiohazardzx_> | ships refitting code is in ship_cmd? |
| 13:56 | <andythenorth> | FLHerne: so cargos are always in one and only one group? |
| 13:57 | <FLHerne> | I suppose you could have it in both categories, it would make sense for sacks |
| 13:57 | <FLHerne> | No. I started typing the above before your answer, though |
| 13:57 | <andythenorth> | has to be one and only one group per label |
| 13:57 | <ben1066_> | the openttd android port is unofficial right? |
| 13:57 | <andythenorth> | otherwise you can get vehicles stuck in a dead-end refit |
| 13:58 | -!- | ben1066_ is now known as ben1066 |
| 13:58 | <FLHerne> | Ok, have it in one group then :P |
| 13:58 | <ben1066> | what do you guys think of it on tablets in anycase? |
| 13:58 | <FLHerne> | Unless you could differentiate between grain (piece goods) and grain (clean bulk) with cargo subtypes? |
| 13:58 | <@Alberth> | zxbiohazardzx_: I suspect in vehicle_* somewhere, as all types of transport can do refitting |
| 13:58 | <FLHerne> | Unsure how those work, tbh |
| 13:59 | <FLHerne> | ben1066: Hopeless without a mouse. |
| 13:59 | <zxbiohazardzx_> | hmmz k, ship_cmd only has building a ship, not refitting it :P |
| 13:59 | <andythenorth> | so which group does wood go in? |
| 13:59 | * | Zuu likes tablets as in wacom tablets |
| 13:59 | <@Alberth> | zxbiohazardzx_: grep Refit src/*.cpp :) |
| 13:59 | <Zuu> | Eg as a mouse replacement, used with a pen |
| 14:00 | <@Alberth> | andythenorth: long things |
| 14:00 | <FLHerne> | andythenorth Unsure. Probably with goods/timber. Others would make even less sense |
| 14:00 | <Zuu> | A fat finger on the other hand can't do right/middle clicks and have much worse precision. |
| 14:00 | <andythenorth> | where does scrap metal go? |
| 14:00 | <FLHerne> | Dirty bulk, definitely |
| 14:00 | <andythenorth> | sugar beet? |
| 14:00 | <FLHerne> | Clean bulk |
| 14:01 | <FLHerne> | Recyclables - unsure |
| 14:01 | <andythenorth> | food? |
| 14:01 | <FLHerne> | Refrigerated |
| 14:01 | <andythenorth> | wood products? |
| 14:02 | <FLHerne> | Which kind? Timber is piece, goods from paper mill are also piece |
| 14:02 | <andythenorth> | wood products covers timber, board, wood chips |
| 14:02 | <frosch123> | lumber is dirty bulk, wood products are clean builk |
| 14:02 | <FLHerne> | Scrap is because it makes sense for gameplay - goes to the same places as coal/bauxite/ore :P |
| 14:03 | <andythenorth> | cut wood is clean bulk? :o |
| 14:03 | <andythenorth> | it's not pourable |
| 14:03 | <FLHerne> | frosch123: Unconvinced. Timber is definitely piece goods. |
| 14:03 | <andythenorth> | cut wood is countable |
| 14:03 | <FLHerne> | andythenorth: Are there non-timber wood products in ECS or FIRS? |
| 14:03 | <andythenorth> | in ECS yes |
| 14:03 | * | andythenorth ponders |
| 14:04 | <andythenorth> | it's silly to do this for one vehicle set |
| 14:04 | <andythenorth> | it should be a standard across sets |
| 14:04 | <andythenorth> | frosch123 can we have a new cargo property: 'cargo group' ? |
| 14:04 | <andythenorth> | it would be ideal for this situation |
| 14:04 | * | FLHerne agrees. This is silly :P |
| 14:05 | <andythenorth> | cargo groups will need identifiers / names |
| 14:05 | <andythenorth> | what would they be? |
| 14:05 | <frosch123> | FLHerne: i have seen trucks with stake wagons for wood |
| 14:06 | <frosch123> | but on trains i have only seen open wagons with wood |
| 14:06 | <Eddi|zuHause> | wood isn't carried on rail as often as it used to |
| 14:06 | <zxbiohazardzx_> | hmmz so far i cant find anything for it :( |
| 14:07 | <Eddi|zuHause> | andythenorth: what would "group" be fundamentally different from "class"? |
| 14:07 | <FLHerne> | frosch123: All UK wood trains I've seen are staked |
| 14:08 | <andythenorth> | Eddi|zuHause: it would solve all these problems of course ;) |
| 14:08 | <Eddi|zuHause> | andythenorth: that's fairly unlikely :p |
| 14:08 | <zxbiohazardzx_> | actually i think my question comes down to articulated ships |
| 14:08 | <zxbiohazardzx_> | or at least cargowise |
| 14:08 | <andythenorth> | zxbiohazardzx_: +1 |
| 14:08 | <zxbiohazardzx_> | so engine.cpp would require a similar line as road/trains have? |
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| 14:08 | <frosch123> | google has lots of staked wood trains |
| 14:09 | <andythenorth> | invisible articulated ships ~= ships with n holds |
| 14:09 | <zxbiohazardzx_> | ala case VEH_SHIP: if(this->u.ship?.capacity ==0) return false; break; |
| 14:09 | <zxbiohazardzx_> | assuming ship for its rail and road.... |
| 14:09 | <andythenorth> | ships can't collide so should be easy ;) |
| 14:10 | <zxbiohazardzx_> | well ship_cmd doesnt limit cargoes |
| 14:10 | <zxbiohazardzx_> | it simply gets teh cargo from engine.cpp |
| 14:10 | <zxbiohazardzx_> | const ShipVehicleInfo *svi = &e->u.ship; |
| 14:10 | <zxbiohazardzx_> | v->cargo_type = e->GetDefaultCargoType(); |
| 14:10 | <zxbiohazardzx_> | v->cargo_cap = svi->capacity; |
| 14:10 | <Eddi|zuHause> | frosch123: in germany the "Drehschemelwagen" was common. it's basically two short wagons which can be adjusted in distance according to what is loaded on them. |
| 14:11 | <andythenorth> | Eddi|zuHause: for the tricky case, I'm going to do something like 'if current subtype == Tanker, and cargo subtype == Tanker, allow' |
| 14:11 | <andythenorth> | and similar for 'General Cargo' subtype |
| 14:11 | <zxbiohazardzx_> | case VEH_SHIP: |
| 14:11 | <zxbiohazardzx_> | capacity = GetEngineProperty(this->index, PROP_SHIP_CARGO_CAPACITY, this->u.ship.capacity, v); |
| 14:11 | <zxbiohazardzx_> | break; |
| 14:11 | <andythenorth> | I can also handle ships that have different graphics for PAX cargo this way |
| 14:11 | <zxbiohazardzx_> | blegh, stupid point to point to point :( |
| 14:12 | <zxbiohazardzx_> | PROP_SHIP_CARGO_CAPACITY is a variable you can set in newgrf i assume? |
| 14:12 | <FLHerne> | Eddi|zuHause: Those would be 'single bolsters' here, used to be common. |
| 14:13 | <zxbiohazardzx_> | whatever i have to go :( |
| 14:13 | <zxbiohazardzx_> | back later |
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| 14:13 | <andythenorth> | nobody tell zx how hard patching ships is |
| 14:13 | <Eddi|zuHause> | http://www.der-lokbauer.de/mediac/400_0/media/DIR_39493/Drehschemelwagen.jpg <-- looks like this. the pieces on top of the wagon can rotate, and the pieces in front of the wagon define the distance |
| 14:14 | <andythenorth> | he might achieve it if he doesn't know he has to figure out the refit gui and all the things we couldn't agree on previouslyu |
| 14:14 | <@Alberth> | :) |
| 14:14 | <Eddi|zuHause> | http://www.buntbahn.de/fotos/data/8370/2967Drehschemelwagen.jpg <-- looks like this when loaded |
| 14:26 | <@Terkhen> | andythenorth: sorry, I was away |
| 14:26 | <@Terkhen> | I'm lucky today? :) |
| 14:30 | <@Alberth> | you always are :) |
| 14:32 | <@Terkhen> | I don't think so :P |
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| 15:12 | <andythenorth> | so in FISH I'm going to allow autorefit if cargo subtype matches |
| 15:12 | <andythenorth> | and I'm going to introduce cargo subtypes that describe the current physical shape of the ship |
| 15:13 | <andythenorth> | this doesn't work for BANDIT :| |
| 15:13 | <andythenorth> | but nvm |
| 15:13 | <FLHerne> | "cargo subtypes that describe the current physical shape of the ship"? |
| 15:13 | <andythenorth> | Tanker |
| 15:13 | <andythenorth> | General cargo vessel |
| 15:14 | <@Terkhen> | hmmm |
| 15:14 | <@Terkhen> | I'm not sure if that's overcomplicated or the first useful usage of cargo subtypes I have seen |
| 15:15 | <FLHerne> | Oh. Like that. :P |
| 15:15 | <andythenorth> | subtypes are very valid for this case |
| 15:15 | <FLHerne> | Why doesn't it work for BANDIT? |
| 15:15 | <andythenorth> | maybe it can |
| 15:15 | * | andythenorth wonders how may subtypes are supported |
| 15:16 | <FLHerne> | Also, does that allow autorefitting between (say) Milk and Petrol? |
| 15:16 | <andythenorth> | yes |
| 15:17 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 15:17 | <FLHerne> | You'll give all the TT-People nasty diseases :-( |
| 15:17 | <andythenorth> | where is the var for cargo subtype hiding in the wiki? |
| 15:17 | <__ln__> | Anyone been to the Cité de Espace in Toulouse? |
| 15:17 | <__ln__> | correction: Cité de l'espace |
| 15:18 | <andythenorth> | cargo subtype has values 0..255 |
| 15:18 | <FLHerne> | Can't you add separate subclasses for Tanker (clean) and Tanker (poisonous) ;p |
| 15:18 | <andythenorth> | possibly |
| 15:18 | <andythenorth> | not an insane suggestion |
| 15:19 | <andythenorth> | how many bits can I stuff in 0..255 if I use it as a bitmask? |
| 15:19 | <FLHerne> | Actually, getting oil residue in chemicals might be a bad thing (r) too :P |
| 15:19 | <andythenorth> | FLHerne: my company always flushes the tanks with steam before reloading :P |
| 15:19 | <andythenorth> | the customer pays |
| 15:19 | <FLHerne> | Add an autorefit cost for tankers then? |
| 15:20 | <andythenorth> | then it wont autorefit at stations |
| 15:20 | <FLHerne> | Oh, ok |
| 15:20 | <andythenorth> | if I can bit-stuff the cargo subtype, I can use it for both: number trailers for a truck, type of current trailers |
| 15:20 | <andythenorth> | 0, 2, 4, 8 = number of trailers |
| 15:20 | <andythenorth> | 16, 32, 64, 128 |
| 15:21 | <andythenorth> | hmm only 4 types available :( |
| 15:21 | <FLHerne> | Do you need 4 bits for no of trailers? Or did I miss something? |
| 15:22 | <andythenorth> | between 0 and 3 trailers per truck |
| 15:22 | <FLHerne> | Surely that's 2 bits? Or does that not work in NML/NFO? |
| 15:23 | <andythenorth> | works for bits |
| 15:23 | <FLHerne> | s/not work/work differently/ |
| 15:23 | <andythenorth> | dunno it if works for a bit mask |
| 15:23 | <andythenorth> | trailer types, I have at least 5: Tanker, Box, Flat, Tipper, Stakes |
| 15:26 | <FLHerne> | That's still only 5 bits out of 8? Correct me if totally wrong, I haven't tried to use that in NML yet :P |
| 15:29 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 15:29 | <andythenorth> | do I only need 3 for the trailers? |
| 15:29 | <andythenorth> | no bits set = no trailers |
| 15:29 | <andythenorth> | bit 1 set = 1 trailer |
| 15:29 | <andythenorth> | etc |
| 15:31 | <FLHerne> | If you only have 0 to 3, you should only need 2 bits :P |
| 15:31 | * | FLHerne probably missed the point again |
| 15:33 | <andythenorth> | 2 = 1 trailer, 4 = 2 trailers, 6 = 3 trailers |
| 15:33 | <andythenorth> | ok |
| 15:33 | <andythenorth> | 2 bits |
| 15:34 | <andythenorth> | BANDIT has this nice feature where it will choose random trailer graphics for some cargos |
| 15:34 | <andythenorth> | that needs to be removed :P |
| 15:35 | <FLHerne> | andythenorth: Why? Random is nice :-) |
| 15:35 | <andythenorth> | incompatible with autoreft |
| 15:36 | <andythenorth> | makes autorefit orders non-deterministic |
| 15:36 | <andythenorth> | which causes micro-management |
| 15:37 | <FLHerne> | That makes sense now :-) |
| 15:41 | <+michi_cc> | andythenorth: autorefit can have a cost if you use the CB. |
| 15:42 | * | andythenorth should read the spec :P |
| 15:43 | <andythenorth> | for some reason I thought cost had to be 0 for autorefit |
| 15:43 | <andythenorth> | nvm |
| 15:43 | <FLHerne> | andythenorth: Possibly because no-one uses that yet? |
| 15:48 | <@Alberth> | good night |
| 15:49 | <andythenorth> | bye Alberth |
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| 15:56 | <andythenorth> | ho |
| 15:57 | * | andythenorth just played a flash game with 'achievments' |
| 15:57 | <andythenorth> | I've heard of these, but never ever played a game with them |
| 15:57 | <andythenorth> | why doesn't openttd have them? :P |
| 15:59 | <telanus1> | what type of achievements could OpenTTD have? |
| 15:59 | -!- | telanus1 is now known as telanus |
| 15:59 | <andythenorth> | 'you built a train: 50 points!' |
| 15:59 | <frosch123> | build 100 trains |
| 16:00 | <frosch123> | transport 1000 tons of coal with one train in a year |
| 16:00 | <andythenorth> | frosch123: achievments or goals? :P |
| 16:00 | <frosch123> | bought 3 opponents within one game |
| 16:00 | <andythenorth> | http://www.diffen.com/difference/Goal_vs_Objective |
| 16:00 | <frosch123> | achievement |
| 16:00 | <KenjiE20> | coop achievement, cover 80% of land in tracks |
| 16:00 | <telanus> | "Build a Airroute that brings in $500000 per trip" |
| 16:02 | <frosch123> | andythenorth: like highscores, but based on different things |
| 16:02 | <andythenorth> | yes |
| 16:02 | <andythenorth> | I am a bit cynical about 'achievements' tbh |
| 16:02 | <frosch123> | things you do not know in advance |
| 16:03 | <andythenorth> | GS could deliver achievments |
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| 16:12 | <andythenorth> | reefer ships have been around a long time :o |
| 16:12 | <andythenorth> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reefer_ship |
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| 16:14 | <@peter1138> | Evenin' |
| 16:14 | <Rubidium> | EHLO |
| 16:15 | <@peter1138> | I'm not falling into the trap of pretending to be an ESMTP server... |
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| 16:19 | <frosch123> | night |
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| 16:49 | <@Terkhen> | good night |
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| 18:02 | <LordAro> | g'night to anyone who's left |
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| 18:24 | <Wolf01> | 'night |
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| --- | Log | closed Mon Jul 16 00:00:11 2012 |
