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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-07-15

---Logopened Sun Jul 15 00:00:13 2012
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02:43<@planetmaker>V453000: have you selected any other than 'custom' license?
02:44<@planetmaker>moin all :-)
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03:38-!-mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ
03:39<@Alberth>moin
03:39<@Terkhen>good morning
03:40<LordAro>mornings
03:49-!-Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #openttd
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03:50<@Alberth>lo andy
03:57<@planetmaker>moin Alberth, LordAro
03:57<@Alberth>moin pm
03:57<LordAro>hi pm, andy
03:59<andythenorth>bonjour
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04:05<@planetmaker>salut andythenorth
04:17*andythenorth ponders FISH
04:20*Alberth ponders cargo monitoring
04:20<andythenorth>?
04:20<andythenorth>sounds interesting
04:23<@Alberth>monitoring of cargo pickup & delivery by a company for game scripts :)
04:23<andythenorth>sounds good
04:24<andythenorth>how fine grained (i.e. where would you monitor?)
04:24<andythenorth>per station? per accepting / producing tile?
04:24<@Alberth>same as subsidies basically
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04:26<Wolf01>hello o/
04:26<@Alberth>in particular pax is very hard to get to deliver to the 'right' place
04:26<@Alberth>hello Wolf01
04:29<andythenorth>Alberth: you need a cargo routing algorithm :)
04:29<andythenorth>NewDispatcher
04:29<@Alberth>nope, I just monitor where you bring it :)
04:29*andythenorth watches Alberth duck the routing idea :P
04:29<andythenorth>maybe someone else would do it
04:30<@Alberth>it's an intriguing problem, and I do want to have a go at it some day, but not in the near future
04:31<@Alberth>I feel cargo sources and destinations is not the right approach
04:31<@Alberth>the trouble is now, what is? :)
04:33<@Alberth>The steps in-between don't care where cargo comes from or goes to, ie they are generic transport services. Yet we push a source/target onto them, which makes the problem explode, as there are many sources/target combinations
04:34<@Alberth>Ie I want flow without the combinatorial explosion in cpu time
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04:49<andythenorth>Alberth: 'flow' is also what I seek
04:50<andythenorth>my ideas for approximating 'downhill' are based on looking only at next step
04:50<andythenorth>hmm
04:51<andythenorth>if I knew more about vector maths, it could be done that way
04:51<andythenorth>cargo should take any available vector that is 'towards' the destination
04:51*andythenorth goes back to ships
04:51<andythenorth>water in rivers doesn't need to know where it's going
04:51<andythenorth>it just goes down gradient
04:51<andythenorth>voltage doesn't know where it's 'going'
04:52<andythenorth>it just goes down the difference gradient
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04:52<telanus>helllo
04:53<telanus>quick question: what is a viewport?
04:53<Zuu>hello
04:53<telanus>busy translating and not sure what is meant
04:53<Zuu>there are two types of them. There is the one at the back of your screen that show the landscape
04:54<Zuu>There is also the extra viewports that open up in a window
04:55<telanus>might be the landskape one. translating this: The maximum zoom-in level for viewports ...........
04:59<@Alberth>all viewports display part of the landscape :)
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05:05<@Alberth>andy, local checking only has no idea of where it is going.
05:05<@Alberth>which makes it miss "destinations" :)
05:09<andythenorth>it's on a specific 'gradient'
05:09<andythenorth>the gradient is towards a specific destination
05:10<andythenorth>still requires a path-solving routine to run at [some frequency] to cache the gradient
05:10<@Alberth>flow is destination specific ? that explodes, doesn't it?
05:10<andythenorth>dunno
05:10<andythenorth>vehicles seem to route ok
05:10<andythenorth>without exploding
05:10<@Alberth>until you hit the CPU ceiling :)
05:10<andythenorth>you end up with a gradient for every cargo-destination pair
05:11<@Alberth>and there are a lot more cargo packets :)
05:11<andythenorth>but you can discard the source
05:11<andythenorth>hmm
05:11<andythenorth>migrating ship stats accurately to nml is tedious :P
05:12<@Alberth>why?
05:12<@Alberth>ie what is nml missing?
05:14<andythenorth>an assistant for me
05:14<andythenorth>I have three sources as well: tracking table, nfo, and I have to check the old grf in game for some stats
05:14<andythenorth>new nml package: nml.assistant
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05:26<andythenorth>hmm
05:27<andythenorth>not being able to set costs directly
05:27<andythenorth>needs some thought
05:28<andythenorth>I need to know the most expensive ship in the set, so I can find the scale for 0-255 cost factor :P
05:28<andythenorth>but the most expensive ship might not be added yet :P
05:29<@Alberth>sounds like a sucky design to me :p
05:30<andythenorth>kind of necessary
05:31<andythenorth>so you can have variable base costs I guess
05:32*Alberth very much believes computers are much better in administrative tasks
05:33<andythenorth>+1
05:34<andythenorth>btw, the nml missing-string patch was essential :)
05:34<andythenorth>using the errors a lot right now
05:35<@Alberth>it is fixed afaik :)
05:35<andythenorth>yes
05:35<andythenorth>that's what I meant ;)
05:36<@Alberth>any tool not given sane feedback to its users does not deserve to be used imho
05:36<@Alberth>*giving
05:37<@Alberth>unfortunately, many users accept it without even reporting it as bug
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05:45<Wolf01>http://englishrussia.com/2012/07/11/locomotive-vs-car/ they might need to replace just a couple of pieces...
05:46<@Alberth>the gravel won :)
05:47<NGC3982>too bad it hit the trailer, and not the truck.
05:47<andythenorth>in soviet russia...
05:47<NGC3982>did the driver survive?
05:48<NGC3982>.."He probably escape to engine section - normal procedure in danger."
05:53*andythenorth wonders what nml is doing with ship running costs
05:53<andythenorth>I get an exciting $492/yr no matter which values I try for the action 0 prop
05:54<andythenorth>I haven't adjusted any base cost yet
05:57<andythenorth>local bug I think
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07:33<andythenorth>hmm
07:33<andythenorth>so my FISH buy menu is pretty crappy
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07:34<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3125/FISH_buy_menu.png
07:34<andythenorth>fixing it is a simple matter of setting x, y values in the config file (plain text)
07:35<andythenorth>want to help?
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07:38<ZxBiohazardZx>Andy i didtn ahve that issue before, what did you change lol
07:41<andythenorth>recoded to nml
07:42<andythenorth>removed use of setx which is unofficially deprecated
07:42<ZxBiohazardZx>aha
07:42<andythenorth>and should be deprecated, but cowardice prevents that :P
07:44<ZxBiohazardZx>cant you use the old x-y offsets though?
07:44<ZxBiohazardZx>aka copy-paste into new format
07:45<andythenorth>no, the space in the menu is narrower
07:45<@planetmaker>lol :-) andythenorth
07:46<andythenorth>setx is not allowed to be implemented in nml, because it's unwanted, despite being in spec
07:46<@planetmaker>The cut-away-the-cobs attitude sometimes is really refreshing :-)
07:46<andythenorth>but nobody wants to change spec because newgrf authors will whine
07:46<andythenorth>so we have the odd situation where nml *refuses* to support the newgrf spec
07:46<@planetmaker>:-) yup
07:47<@planetmaker>it's by far not the only point where NML does not support every contingency
07:47<@planetmaker>For the same or similar reasons
07:47<andythenorth>meh
07:47<@planetmaker>But maybe, it should be announced that a thing like XYZ will be deprecated in the upcoming major release or so
07:48<@planetmaker>Like "you got 9 months to fix it"
07:48<andythenorth>just knock it out of next newgrf spec major version?
07:48<andythenorth>what's next? v9?
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07:49*andythenorth -> food
07:50<@planetmaker>for a v9 it needs imho more changes. Like grf v8 also accumulated. Actually over years
07:58<Eddi|zuHause>the buy menu needs a configurable width by misc parameter, similar to the depot offset.
07:58<Eddi|zuHause>the maximum over all GRFs is taken
07:59<Eddi|zuHause>(per vehicle type)
08:06<NGC3982>how is current data saved in the game, as i progresses? for instance, in case one would wish to parse current economy statistics to a third party software.
08:10<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: the savegame format is a compressed RIFF format, each chunk has a handler in src/saveload/*.cpp
08:10<Eddi|zuHause>the explicit format of the data differs from chunk to chunk
08:11<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: if you don't want to mess with the compression, you can write in your .cfg that you want to make uncompressed savegames
08:20<@planetmaker>and: the actual format of each chunk may change between revs without notice.
08:20<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I think the buy menu sprite should be fixed to current size
08:21<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i disagree.
08:21<andythenorth>when grfs use different sizes, the ragged edge is horrible
08:21<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: some flexibility is needed
08:21<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: especially with road vehicles (without road-wagons)
08:21<andythenorth>so what do you need that setx doesn't provide?
08:22<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that's the point of the "width" parameter, if you take the maximum over all grfs, there is no ragged edge
08:22<andythenorth>point
08:23<andythenorth>some sprites will be floating a long way from their name string though
08:24<Eddi|zuHause>whether there should be a maximum is a different discussion
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08:24<Eddi|zuHause>and the sprites could be right-aligned
08:24<andythenorth>I don't fancy handling bug reports due to the behaviour of other grfs
08:25<Eddi|zuHause>(but that won't help with rtl-languages)
08:25<andythenorth>sprites are centred in the buy menu
08:25<andythenorth>are / should be according to the game style /s
08:25<andythenorth>some grfs do it wrong and left-align
08:26*andythenorth is feeling didactic, but is prepared to lose that point :P
08:26<Eddi|zuHause>CETS sprites are left aligned without any special handling. the default vehicles all have the same length
08:27<Eddi|zuHause>(double headed vehicles are "magic")
08:28<Eddi|zuHause>but some of the longer wagons overlap with the text
08:28<Eddi|zuHause>and there is no "sane" solution for that currently
08:28<andythenorth>nor for FISH
08:29<andythenorth>te
08:29<andythenorth>the larger ships - there's no useful crop for them to current buy menu sprite size
08:29<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3125/FISH_buy_menu.png
08:29<andythenorth>e.g. Shannon Freighter
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08:39<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: i think i understand. tho, a chunk seems to represent several actions and changes (and cant thus be usdd to collect real time changes?)
08:40<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: no. a chunk groups the information by type (i.e. all industries are gathered in one chunk, all trains in another chunk, etc.)
08:40<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: savegames are not "realtime" and you cannot construct the history out of them
08:40<NGC3982>ah, i see.
08:42<NGC3982>im getting my head around parsing data in our business systems, and making a third party client that connects to a server and collect economy statistics looked like a fun thing to start with.
08:44<+michi_cc>NGC3982: That's called admin port (http://svn.openttd.org/trunk/docs/admin_network.txt) and not savegame.
08:45*NGC3982 has a look
08:45<andythenorth>so any bright ideas for fixing FISH buy menu? :P
08:45*andythenorth is bamboozled
08:46<NGC3982>ah.
08:46<NGC3982>perfect. exactly what i was looking for.
08:47<NGC3982>we play a lot of ttd amongst the supervisors, and i want to integrate server data in our business system.
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08:51<andythenorth>quak
08:51<frosch123>moin
08:53<MNIM>oink
08:53<FLHerne>How does CC recolouring work with objects in NML?
08:53*FLHerne fails to understand the documentation again
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09:00<Hirundo>FLHerne: I assume you use the 'colour' callback, what do you not understand about that?
09:01<FLHerne>How to use it for stuff :P New to NML...
09:02<Hirundo>FLHerne: what are you trying to achieve?
09:02<FLHerne>There's stuff about colour translation pallettes, and recolour sprites, and various other stuff, and I'm not quite understanding how it all fits together :P
09:03<FLHerne>Just trying to get cc bits on objects to match the company colour, nothing fancy :-(
09:05<Hirundo>you should set recolour_mode to RECOLOUR_REMAP and palette to PALETTE_USE_DEFAULT in the sptirelayout sprites you want recoloured
09:06*FLHerne looks
09:06<Hirundo>RECOLOUR_REMAP enables recolouring for the sprite
09:06<FLHerne>Ah, now I see :D
09:06<Hirundo>PALETTE_USE_DEFAULT tells OpenTTD to use the default recolour sprite, which for objects is 1 CC
09:07<FLHerne>Got confused by looking at stuff I didn't need to know about :P
09:07<Hirundo>(or if enabled by the respective flag, 2 CC)
09:07<FLHerne>Thanks :-)
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09:15*andythenorth ponders autorefits
09:16<andythenorth>vehicle ferries: refit anything
09:16<andythenorth>automatically
09:17<andythenorth>freight ships: autorefit if same class?
09:17<andythenorth>makes no sense for lots of cargos, but meh :P
09:20<andythenorth>e.g. scrap metal would be autorefittable to sugar beet
09:20<andythenorth>clay would be autorefittable to wheat
09:21<andythenorth>oil autorefittable to milk :P
09:21<andythenorth>should I do label based checks?
09:22<FLHerne>Probably
09:22<frosch123>andythenorth: just please make auto-refitting symmetrical
09:22<frosch123>else the gameplay will be horrible
09:23<andythenorth>in which respect?
09:23<FLHerne>I was going to say that :P
09:23<andythenorth>oil <-> milk
09:23<frosch123>don't allow refitting from sugar beet to scrap metal, if the reverse is not allowed
09:23<frosch123>else a mixed line will end up with only scrap metal vehicles at some point
09:23<FLHerne>UKRS2 allows you to refit, say, sugarbeet to wood but not wood to sugarbeet. Confusing and breaks things :-(
09:25<frosch123>i.e. make refittability use real equivalency classes
09:25<frosch123>symmetrical and transitive
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09:26<andythenorth>how should I implement that?
09:26*andythenorth is happy to
09:27<frosch123>either label based or only allow refitting between exactly same cargoclasses
09:27<frosch123>resp. ignore one class completely
09:28<frosch123>if you allow bulk<->oversized and bulk<->powderized, you also have to allow oversized<->powderized
09:28<andythenorth>and if I only allow in same class?
09:28<andythenorth>hmm
09:28<andythenorth>on a three hop journey
09:28<frosch123>you must compare all classes then
09:29<andythenorth>[BULK, PIECE] -> [PIECE] -> [PIECE, REFRIGERATED] -> [REFRIGERATED]
09:29<frosch123>else you can refit bulk -> bulk+powder -> powder and not get back to bulk
09:29<andythenorth>four hops, no more refit
09:29<andythenorth>pathological case? I think not :P
09:29<andythenorth>refit all?
09:29<andythenorth>easier :P
09:29<frosch123>boring :p
09:30<frosch123>better allow a vehicle to only carry bulk
09:30<frosch123>and no powder ever
09:31<MNIM>0-o
09:31<MNIM>dude
09:31<MNIM>since when does mint have rolling updates on it's non-debian versions?
09:32<FLHerne>It doesn't, does it? :o
09:32<MNIM>well
09:33<MNIM>I was very pleasantly surprised when I just checked and it turns out I installed the most recent version of OTTD via it's software manager.
09:33<Sacro>MNIM: its
09:33<frosch123>@topic get -2
09:33<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 'Latest' is not a valid version, ever
09:34<frosch123>'most recent' is not either
09:34<telanus>nightly?
09:34<telanus>:p
09:34<frosch123>@topic set -2 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither
09:34-!-DorpsGek changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.2.1 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only
09:34<MNIM>Sacro: ouch. It's/Its is one of those things in the english language I still do wrong
09:35<MNIM>telanus: well, the latest stable, 1.2.1 according to the site
09:35<Sacro>MNIM: it is -> it's, belonging to it -> its
09:35<frosch123>sometimes there are also generic nightly packages, which grab the newest source from openttd.org whenever you update them
09:35<MNIM>yeah, I know the theory, I just keep doing it WRONG >.<
09:36-!-cyph3r [~Miranda@ip-78-45-93-108.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd
09:37*andythenorth thinks ships refit anything, automatically
09:37<andythenorth>maybe I should split the tanker sprites to separate IDs
09:37<andythenorth>despite they have same hull, stats etc
09:37*telanus always plays with the latest nightly :D
09:38<andythenorth>tankers -> refit any liquid
09:38<andythenorth>not tanker -> refit anything except liquid
09:38<telanus>that could work
09:38*andythenorth refrigerated class?
09:39<frosch123>refridgerated oil
09:39<andythenorth>refrigerated LNG :P
09:39<andythenorth>I don't really want to spam the buy menu with tankers
09:39<andythenorth>but maybe I should
09:43<andythenorth>if (liquid): auto-refit only if liquid
09:43<andythenorth>else: refit any
09:43<andythenorth>hmm
09:44<andythenorth>that has some horrible edge cases with (liquid + something else)
09:44<andythenorth>this sucks doesn't it :)
09:44<andythenorth>I need storage on the vehicle
09:46<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: ^ you are good at thorny problems
09:46<@Terkhen>andythenorth: tanker, passenger, anything else
09:47<andythenorth>should I just spam the buy menu with tankers?
09:47<@Terkhen>no, use autorefit
09:47<@Terkhen>a ship can refit to all cargos
09:47<andythenorth>my thinking too
09:47<@Terkhen>autorefitting between cargos of the same group is free
09:47<andythenorth>how do you define group?
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: if passengers, refit to passengers, if liquid refit to liquid, if non-liquid refit to non-liquid and non-passenger
09:47<@Terkhen>refitting between cargos of different groups has a cost and must be done at a shipyard
09:48<@Terkhen>andythenorth: tanker, passenger, anything else would be the groups in this case
09:48<andythenorth>so exact match of classes?
09:48*andythenorth is puzzled how to implement
09:48<@Terkhen>check ogfx-rv readme, that's how I did groups
09:48<andythenorth>maybe I can store something on the animation frame
09:48<Eddi|zuHause>no, exact match of the "passenger" and "liquid" classes, don't-care on all others
09:48*Terkhen implements it based on cargo labels
09:48<andythenorth>so 'liquid' can't refit to 'liquid, refrigerated' ?
09:49<Eddi|zuHause>it can, because refrigerated is "don't care"
09:49<andythenorth>hmm
09:49<andythenorth>people who don't want vehicles 'stuck' in a certain class - shouldn't use autorefit
09:49<andythenorth>?
09:51<andythenorth>Terkhen: do you maintain lists of clean / dirty cargo labels?
09:51<@Terkhen>andythenorth: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ogfx-rv/repository/entry/docs/readme.ptxt#L79 <--- an explanation of how it works in ogfx-rv
09:51<andythenorth>was reading it ;)
09:52<@Terkhen>andythenorth: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ogfx-rv/repository/entry/src/cargo_definitions.pnml#L122 <--- and the source
09:52<@Terkhen>as I said, I do it label by label
09:52<andythenorth>ok so yes, by label
09:52<andythenorth>hmm
09:52<andythenorth>you make work for yourself in future?
09:52<@Terkhen>if a new cargo is added, it would need at most a new line for each vehicle :)
09:53<andythenorth>fine
09:53<@Terkhen>I could try to find a cargo class scheme, but this is simpler to understand
09:53<andythenorth>frosch123: I don't see any easy way to guarantee symmetrical refits
09:53<@Terkhen>what do you mean with symmetrical refits?
09:54<andythenorth>basically, a warranty that all your vehicles won't end up autorefitted to scrap metal, with no way out
09:54<andythenorth>for example
09:54<andythenorth>on a four hop order list, you could easily start with cargo x, and have no way back to it
09:54<andythenorth>e.g [BULK, PIECE] -> [PIECE] -> [PIECE, REFRIGERATED] -> [REFRIGERATED]
09:54<andythenorth>can't get back to BULK
09:55<andythenorth>so your route breaks
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09:56<frosch123>andythenorth: you have to limit the clases you check
09:57<andythenorth>example? :)
09:57*andythenorth thinks there will be a pathological case for every scheme
09:57<frosch123>if you have a specific rule to allow refitting piece to piece, you have to forbid refitting non-piece to piece and vice versa
09:58<frosch123>so, you can make one vehicle which carries all piece goods and can refit between them
09:58<frosch123>but it may not carry anything non-piece
09:59<frosch123>simliar you can make a vehicle that can carry refridgerated stuff, but it may not carry non-refridged stuff
09:59<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: example 1 above is "ignore piece/bulk differences", example 2 would be, you have a "main" class for the ship, e.g. "piece" then you can refit to from "piece" to "piece, bulk" and vice versa, but not from "piece, bulk" to "bulk"
10:01<andythenorth>hmm
10:01*andythenorth is going to do some driving for 2 hours, that often produces an answer
10:01<andythenorth>currently, it looks like adding tankers to the set might be the best solution
10:01<andythenorth>the issue with tankers is that they have completely different graphics, I don't want them changing at stations
10:01<andythenorth>that adds ~20 ships to the buy menu :P
10:02<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the idea was that anything that has "liquid" [and any other combination] cargo class can refit, and anything that has "not liquid" [and any combination] can refit
10:03<Eddi|zuHause>so "piece,liquid" will be counted as liquid in all cases
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10:04<andythenorth>k, bbl
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11:03<frosch123>V453000: try bananas upload again
11:05<MNIM>andy, you're the one that makes FIRS, right?
11:07<LordAro>why is it that to install doxygen i have to get ~500MB of archives??
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11:15<frosch123>maybe it contains the docs of everything
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11:18<Eddi|zuHause>42.zip? :)
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11:40<cyph3r>Is OpenTTDCoop on this server?
11:40<cyph3r>I mean IRC.
11:41<Zuu>#openttdcoop
11:42<Zuu>you could try "!password" here to get a prompt message about it :-)
11:42<cyph3r>!password
11:42-!-cyph3r was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.]
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11:42*Alberth slaps Zuu :)
11:42<cyph3r>Zuu : not cool :-D
11:43<Zuu>:-)
11:43<Zuu>well at least I warned you
11:44<cyph3r>Yes, kick without a warning would be unpleasant.
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11:58<ZxBiohazardZx>lol
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12:17<CIA-4>OpenTTD: frosch * r24402 /trunk/src/ (elrail.cpp newgrf_station.cpp station_cmd.cpp station_func.h): -Fix [FS#5243]: Station properties 11 and 14 were combined incorrectly.
12:18<CIA-4>OpenTTD: frosch * r24403 /trunk/src/elrail.cpp: -Fix: Draw wires under low bridges if the bridge is transparent, not if the wire is transparent.
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12:26<LordAro>funny how sometimes, you find ancient bugs that you wonder why no one noticed before :)
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12:34<andythenorth>vehicles don't have an animation frame?
12:34<andythenorth>they have to rely on the motion counter?
12:34<frosch123>they have time and motion counter
12:34<frosch123>they have no persistent storage
12:35<andythenorth>k
12:35<andythenorth>I thought we'd have abused it by now if there was animation frame :P
12:36<Chris_Booth>hi
12:37<andythenorth>using a trackpad is harder with a toddler sitting on your forearm
12:39<andythenorth>the refit issue I have with FISH is another manifestion of 'cargo subtypes are a bad hack'
12:39<andythenorth>at least for changing the physical properties of the vehicle
12:40*andythenorth has ideas
12:40<andythenorth>(1) vehicles get storage; never seems to get resolved if we like this or not
12:41<andythenorth>(2) give buy menu 'categories', same as for stations; then group vehicles by category ('Tankers', 'Cargo Ships') etc
12:41-!-KouDy [~KouDy@115.133.13.128] has joined #openttd
12:41<andythenorth>(3) continue to use subtype as a hack, but introduce a new magic cargo for use in refit menu, which is equivalent to 'any valid refittable cargo'
12:42<andythenorth>which would allow things like 'Any valid refittable cargo for tanker', 'Any valid refittable cargo for general cargo vessel'
12:42<andythenorth>(4) spam the buy menu
12:43<frosch123>the buy menu is only spammed if people do not use the retire early property
12:44<andythenorth>I should learn how that works :P
12:44*andythenorth is leaning towards 'add ship IDs for tankers'
12:44<andythenorth>probably also 'reefers' and 'livestock carriers'
12:45<andythenorth>FISH already has 30 ships or so
12:45<andythenorth>dunno another 20 really enhances it :|
12:47<FLHerne>It'll never be as bad as eGRVTS, so go ahead :P
12:47<frosch123>i think whenever i played fish, all ships were already available
12:47<frosch123>i did never noticed anyone being introduced new
12:47<frosch123>are all introdates before 1920?
12:47<frosch123>or after 1980?
12:48<FLHerne>More variety would definitely be nice :-)
12:50<FLHerne>Is using multiple industry sets a universal [no], or would it be possible to have industry sets that were compatible?
12:50<andythenorth>all intro dates are 1870 for FISH
12:50<andythenorth>industry sets could be compatible via co-operation between authors
12:51<andythenorth>I'm going to cut down the scope of FISH to start around 1920
12:51<andythenorth>the long game is over-rated
12:51<andythenorth>but I remain puzzled about autorefit
12:54<FLHerne>andythenorth: :-(
12:54<FLHerne>Long games are the best kind :P
13:05<CIA-4>OpenTTD: alberth * r24404 /trunk/ (8 files in 3 dirs): -Add: Data structures for cargo transport monitoring.
13:07<CIA-4>OpenTTD: alberth * r24405 /trunk/ (8 files in 4 dirs): -Add: Save and load of active cargo monitors.
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13:11<CIA-4>OpenTTD: alberth * r24406 /trunk/ (7 files in 5 dirs): -Feature: Allow game scripts to monitor cargo pickups and deliveries done by companies.
13:12<@Alberth>with many thanks to Zuu for his assistance
13:12<Zuu>nice :-)
13:12<ZxBiohazardZx>i think FISH covers the modern era quite well with different sized ships
13:14<ZxBiohazardZx>it could use some older boats/barges though, smaller steam ones or early diesels with smaller capacity (think english narrow-canalboats, the pulled from shore boats (using horsed usually) etc etc
13:18<andythenorth>currently FISH is beached
13:20<andythenorth>stuck on: buy menu + autorefit
13:21<FLHerne>andythenorth: Buy menu looks a pain. What's up with autorefit?
13:22<andythenorth>no sane scheme to make it work
13:23<FLHerne>andythenorth: Is that concept or implementation? Or both? :P
13:23<andythenorth>concept
13:24*FLHerne thinks
13:24<andythenorth>I'll probably use the idea from Eddi|zuHause
13:25<andythenorth>I do in more cases than not
13:28<andythenorth>I could use cargo subtype
13:29<V453000>Hi! I am trying to update my newGRF on bananas and as usual, I add a zip with grf, license, readme and changelog. In compare to the older versions is changed not only .grf file but also readme file a bit. As a result I am getting an error "a package can include only one license file" :o Does anyone know what to do with that please?
13:30<+michi_cc>V453000: Did you try after 17:02 CEST?
13:30<V453000>yesterday, not today
13:30<V453000>will try noaw
13:30<FLHerne>Separate tankers in buy menu/vehicle types. Allow autorefitting between all bulk mineral types. Allow autorefitting between all 'clean' bulk types (grain/beet). Allow depot-only refitting between dirty/clean bulk types.
13:31<V453000> yay it worked now michi_cc :D thanks
13:31<V453000>something changed?
13:31<frosch123>yup :p
13:31<frosch123>since yesterday you can add translated readmes and changelogs
13:32<frosch123>since today you can upload custom licenses again :p
13:32<V453000>oh right :)
13:32<andythenorth>autorefit adds a lot of micro-management
13:32<andythenorth>ironically
13:33<FLHerne>Allow autorefitting between refrigerated types. Allow (expensive) depot-only refitting between this and bulk types.
13:33<FLHerne>Allow depot-only refitting between pax and mail.
13:34<FLHerne>Allow autorefit between supplies/timber/metal/goods. Do not allow autorefitting of tankers, but have cheap depot refits.
13:35<andythenorth>how do you satisfy the 'refits must be symmetric' condition?
13:35<andythenorth>grain > clay but ! clay > grain in this scheme ;)
13:35<andythenorth>fails symmetric requirement
13:35<FLHerne>Allow (expensive) depot refit between supplies etc and other no-tanker/non-pax types. There. Done :P
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13:36<FLHerne>andythenorth: No. only depot refit between dirty/clean bulk types :P
13:36<andythenorth>not symmetric :)
13:37<FLHerne>Forbid autorefit from clean -> dirty, not just dirty -> clean
13:37*FLHerne draws diagram
13:37<frosch123>FLHerne: asymmetric refittability sucks for gameplay
13:37<frosch123>though i cannot remember whether you can allow autorefitting and make it cost at the same time
13:39<andythenorth>it's important not to have asymmetric across a chain of refits too
13:39<andythenorth>e.g. one refit might be symmetric, but the classes are also the union of two asymmetric refits
13:40<andythenorth>so you end up with a lof of micromanagement
13:40<andythenorth>because your vehicles a forever getting stuck at stations unable to refit
13:41<andythenorth>a / are /s
13:41<FLHerne>FLHerne: No assymetric autorefits. Just can't explain intelligibly
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13:43*andythenorth is heading towards 'autorefit any'
13:44<frosch123>you could try making autorefit rediculous expensive :p
13:44<frosch123>refitting oil->water for 10 times is worth a new vehicle
13:45<zxbiohazardzx_>give it a limited number of refits?
13:45<zxbiohazardzx_>aka max refits = X
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: translators * r24407 /trunk/src/lang/ (afrikaans.txt korean.txt):
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: afrikaans - 15 changes by telanus
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: korean - 11 changes by telk5093
13:45<andythenorth>having considered it, I don't like any of this stuff
13:45<zxbiohazardzx_>reduce 1 per refit, when 0 do not allow refitting but insist on new ?
13:45<andythenorth>refit is opaque to the user, there's nothing about it in the GUI
13:45<andythenorth>it's mystery meat
13:46<andythenorth>I don't think playing a guessing game of 'wtf, how does autorefit work' is a fun game
13:46<andythenorth>smells all wrong to me
13:46<andythenorth>Alberth: Terkhen you wanted autorefit in FISH?
13:47<zxbiohazardzx_>would it be possible for eg the rivership to carry coal for 50% and iron for other 50%
13:47<@Alberth>difficult to say, I have had one case where auto-refit would be useful
13:47<zxbiohazardzx_>aka mimic the real-life loading bays inside the ship
13:47<andythenorth>zxbiohazardzx_ if you make two trips, each half-empty, yes
13:47<zxbiohazardzx_>aka multiple cargos within a ship
13:48<zxbiohazardzx_>andythenorth no i suggested to have 1 trip, both cargos in 1 ship
13:48<@Alberth>at the same time :)
13:48<andythenorth>have two smaller ships
13:48<zxbiohazardzx_>no
13:48<zxbiohazardzx_>i want 1 big ship with split cargo option
13:48<zxbiohazardzx_>bulk/bulk
13:48<andythenorth>http://i-want-a-pony.com/
13:48<zxbiohazardzx_>yeah yeah
13:49<andythenorth>if you provide a patch, it might be accepted
13:49<zxbiohazardzx_>http://www.theworldsworstwebsiteever.com/
13:49<andythenorth>I'll code newgrf support for it if you add it
13:49<zxbiohazardzx_>hmmz
13:50<@Alberth>andythenorth: so it happens some times, and it would be fun to see how auto-refit would handle it. However, I cannot oversee all consequences of auto-refit, perhaps it makes life too complicated
13:50<FLHerne>andythenorth: I sent you a diagram as a PM
13:51<FLHerne>Is there something like pastebin for images?
13:52<zxbiohazardzx_>imagedump, imageshack or eehm
13:52<zxbiohazardzx_>there was a imagedropper somewhere
13:52<zxbiohazardzx_>imagebin.org
13:54<andythenorth>hmm
13:54<andythenorth>so FLHerne proposes label based refit
13:54<andythenorth>maybe that's the right answer
13:54<FLHerne>With diagram: http://imagebin.org/220874 :P
13:54<FLHerne>andythenorth: Class-based refits would have strange cases
13:54<andythenorth>label based autorefit would need a class based fallback
13:54<andythenorth>otherwise the grf can't support new cargos
13:55<FLHerne>True. Not that many industry grfs though :P
13:55<FLHerne>Pikkabird's UKRS2 has class-based refits, some of which are totally nonsensical :-(
13:56<andythenorth>so can't refit from e.g. grain to goods - what's the reasoning?
13:56<andythenorth>would need explaining to players
13:56<frosch123>add a translated readme :p
13:56<FLHerne>Grain tends not to come in convenient boxes :P
13:56<zxbiohazardzx_>ships refitting code is in ship_cmd?
13:56<andythenorth>FLHerne: so cargos are always in one and only one group?
13:57<FLHerne>I suppose you could have it in both categories, it would make sense for sacks
13:57<FLHerne>No. I started typing the above before your answer, though
13:57<andythenorth>has to be one and only one group per label
13:57<ben1066_>the openttd android port is unofficial right?
13:57<andythenorth>otherwise you can get vehicles stuck in a dead-end refit
13:58-!-ben1066_ is now known as ben1066
13:58<FLHerne>Ok, have it in one group then :P
13:58<ben1066>what do you guys think of it on tablets in anycase?
13:58<FLHerne>Unless you could differentiate between grain (piece goods) and grain (clean bulk) with cargo subtypes?
13:58<@Alberth>zxbiohazardzx_: I suspect in vehicle_* somewhere, as all types of transport can do refitting
13:58<FLHerne>Unsure how those work, tbh
13:59<FLHerne>ben1066: Hopeless without a mouse.
13:59<zxbiohazardzx_>hmmz k, ship_cmd only has building a ship, not refitting it :P
13:59<andythenorth>so which group does wood go in?
13:59*Zuu likes tablets as in wacom tablets
13:59<@Alberth>zxbiohazardzx_: grep Refit src/*.cpp :)
13:59<Zuu>Eg as a mouse replacement, used with a pen
14:00<@Alberth>andythenorth: long things
14:00<FLHerne>andythenorth Unsure. Probably with goods/timber. Others would make even less sense
14:00<Zuu>A fat finger on the other hand can't do right/middle clicks and have much worse precision.
14:00<andythenorth>where does scrap metal go?
14:00<FLHerne>Dirty bulk, definitely
14:00<andythenorth>sugar beet?
14:00<FLHerne>Clean bulk
14:01<FLHerne>Recyclables - unsure
14:01<andythenorth>food?
14:01<FLHerne>Refrigerated
14:01<andythenorth>wood products?
14:02<FLHerne>Which kind? Timber is piece, goods from paper mill are also piece
14:02<andythenorth>wood products covers timber, board, wood chips
14:02<frosch123>lumber is dirty bulk, wood products are clean builk
14:02<FLHerne>Scrap is because it makes sense for gameplay - goes to the same places as coal/bauxite/ore :P
14:03<andythenorth>cut wood is clean bulk? :o
14:03<andythenorth>it's not pourable
14:03<FLHerne>frosch123: Unconvinced. Timber is definitely piece goods.
14:03<andythenorth>cut wood is countable
14:03<FLHerne>andythenorth: Are there non-timber wood products in ECS or FIRS?
14:03<andythenorth>in ECS yes
14:03*andythenorth ponders
14:04<andythenorth>it's silly to do this for one vehicle set
14:04<andythenorth>it should be a standard across sets
14:04<andythenorth>frosch123 can we have a new cargo property: 'cargo group' ?
14:04<andythenorth>it would be ideal for this situation
14:04*FLHerne agrees. This is silly :P
14:05<andythenorth>cargo groups will need identifiers / names
14:05<andythenorth>what would they be?
14:05<frosch123>FLHerne: i have seen trucks with stake wagons for wood
14:06<frosch123>but on trains i have only seen open wagons with wood
14:06<Eddi|zuHause>wood isn't carried on rail as often as it used to
14:06<zxbiohazardzx_>hmmz so far i cant find anything for it :(
14:07<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: what would "group" be fundamentally different from "class"?
14:07<FLHerne>frosch123: All UK wood trains I've seen are staked
14:08<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: it would solve all these problems of course ;)
14:08<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that's fairly unlikely :p
14:08<zxbiohazardzx_>actually i think my question comes down to articulated ships
14:08<zxbiohazardzx_>or at least cargowise
14:08<andythenorth>zxbiohazardzx_: +1
14:08<zxbiohazardzx_>so engine.cpp would require a similar line as road/trains have?
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14:08<frosch123>google has lots of staked wood trains
14:09<andythenorth>invisible articulated ships ~= ships with n holds
14:09<zxbiohazardzx_>ala case VEH_SHIP: if(this->u.ship?.capacity ==0) return false; break;
14:09<zxbiohazardzx_>assuming ship for its rail and road....
14:09<andythenorth>ships can't collide so should be easy ;)
14:10<zxbiohazardzx_>well ship_cmd doesnt limit cargoes
14:10<zxbiohazardzx_>it simply gets teh cargo from engine.cpp
14:10<zxbiohazardzx_> const ShipVehicleInfo *svi = &e->u.ship;
14:10<zxbiohazardzx_> v->cargo_type = e->GetDefaultCargoType();
14:10<zxbiohazardzx_> v->cargo_cap = svi->capacity;
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: in germany the "Drehschemelwagen" was common. it's basically two short wagons which can be adjusted in distance according to what is loaded on them.
14:11<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: for the tricky case, I'm going to do something like 'if current subtype == Tanker, and cargo subtype == Tanker, allow'
14:11<andythenorth>and similar for 'General Cargo' subtype
14:11<zxbiohazardzx_> case VEH_SHIP:
14:11<zxbiohazardzx_> capacity = GetEngineProperty(this->index, PROP_SHIP_CARGO_CAPACITY, this->u.ship.capacity, v);
14:11<zxbiohazardzx_> break;
14:11<andythenorth>I can also handle ships that have different graphics for PAX cargo this way
14:11<zxbiohazardzx_>blegh, stupid point to point to point :(
14:12<zxbiohazardzx_>PROP_SHIP_CARGO_CAPACITY is a variable you can set in newgrf i assume?
14:12<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: Those would be 'single bolsters' here, used to be common.
14:13<zxbiohazardzx_>whatever i have to go :(
14:13<zxbiohazardzx_>back later
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14:13<andythenorth>nobody tell zx how hard patching ships is
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.der-lokbauer.de/mediac/400_0/media/DIR_39493/Drehschemelwagen.jpg <-- looks like this. the pieces on top of the wagon can rotate, and the pieces in front of the wagon define the distance
14:14<andythenorth>he might achieve it if he doesn't know he has to figure out the refit gui and all the things we couldn't agree on previouslyu
14:14<@Alberth>:)
14:14<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.buntbahn.de/fotos/data/8370/2967Drehschemelwagen.jpg <-- looks like this when loaded
14:26<@Terkhen>andythenorth: sorry, I was away
14:26<@Terkhen>I'm lucky today? :)
14:30<@Alberth>you always are :)
14:32<@Terkhen>I don't think so :P
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15:12<andythenorth>so in FISH I'm going to allow autorefit if cargo subtype matches
15:12<andythenorth>and I'm going to introduce cargo subtypes that describe the current physical shape of the ship
15:13<andythenorth>this doesn't work for BANDIT :|
15:13<andythenorth>but nvm
15:13<FLHerne>"cargo subtypes that describe the current physical shape of the ship"?
15:13<andythenorth>Tanker
15:13<andythenorth>General cargo vessel
15:14<@Terkhen>hmmm
15:14<@Terkhen>I'm not sure if that's overcomplicated or the first useful usage of cargo subtypes I have seen
15:15<FLHerne>Oh. Like that. :P
15:15<andythenorth>subtypes are very valid for this case
15:15<FLHerne>Why doesn't it work for BANDIT?
15:15<andythenorth>maybe it can
15:15*andythenorth wonders how may subtypes are supported
15:16<FLHerne>Also, does that allow autorefitting between (say) Milk and Petrol?
15:16<andythenorth>yes
15:17<andythenorth>hmm
15:17<FLHerne>You'll give all the TT-People nasty diseases :-(
15:17<andythenorth>where is the var for cargo subtype hiding in the wiki?
15:17<__ln__>Anyone been to the Cité de Espace in Toulouse?
15:17<__ln__>correction: Cité de l'espace
15:18<andythenorth>cargo subtype has values 0..255
15:18<FLHerne>Can't you add separate subclasses for Tanker (clean) and Tanker (poisonous) ;p
15:18<andythenorth>possibly
15:18<andythenorth>not an insane suggestion
15:19<andythenorth>how many bits can I stuff in 0..255 if I use it as a bitmask?
15:19<FLHerne>Actually, getting oil residue in chemicals might be a bad thing (r) too :P
15:19<andythenorth>FLHerne: my company always flushes the tanks with steam before reloading :P
15:19<andythenorth>the customer pays
15:19<FLHerne>Add an autorefit cost for tankers then?
15:20<andythenorth>then it wont autorefit at stations
15:20<FLHerne>Oh, ok
15:20<andythenorth>if I can bit-stuff the cargo subtype, I can use it for both: number trailers for a truck, type of current trailers
15:20<andythenorth>0, 2, 4, 8 = number of trailers
15:20<andythenorth>16, 32, 64, 128
15:21<andythenorth>hmm only 4 types available :(
15:21<FLHerne>Do you need 4 bits for no of trailers? Or did I miss something?
15:22<andythenorth>between 0 and 3 trailers per truck
15:22<FLHerne>Surely that's 2 bits? Or does that not work in NML/NFO?
15:23<andythenorth>works for bits
15:23<FLHerne>s/not work/work differently/
15:23<andythenorth>dunno it if works for a bit mask
15:23<andythenorth>trailer types, I have at least 5: Tanker, Box, Flat, Tipper, Stakes
15:26<FLHerne>That's still only 5 bits out of 8? Correct me if totally wrong, I haven't tried to use that in NML yet :P
15:29<andythenorth>hmm
15:29<andythenorth>do I only need 3 for the trailers?
15:29<andythenorth>no bits set = no trailers
15:29<andythenorth>bit 1 set = 1 trailer
15:29<andythenorth>etc
15:31<FLHerne>If you only have 0 to 3, you should only need 2 bits :P
15:31*FLHerne probably missed the point again
15:33<andythenorth>2 = 1 trailer, 4 = 2 trailers, 6 = 3 trailers
15:33<andythenorth>ok
15:33<andythenorth>2 bits
15:34<andythenorth>BANDIT has this nice feature where it will choose random trailer graphics for some cargos
15:34<andythenorth>that needs to be removed :P
15:35<FLHerne>andythenorth: Why? Random is nice :-)
15:35<andythenorth>incompatible with autoreft
15:36<andythenorth>makes autorefit orders non-deterministic
15:36<andythenorth>which causes micro-management
15:37<FLHerne>That makes sense now :-)
15:41<+michi_cc>andythenorth: autorefit can have a cost if you use the CB.
15:42*andythenorth should read the spec :P
15:43<andythenorth>for some reason I thought cost had to be 0 for autorefit
15:43<andythenorth>nvm
15:43<FLHerne>andythenorth: Possibly because no-one uses that yet?
15:48<@Alberth>good night
15:49<andythenorth>bye Alberth
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15:56<andythenorth>ho
15:57*andythenorth just played a flash game with 'achievments'
15:57<andythenorth>I've heard of these, but never ever played a game with them
15:57<andythenorth>why doesn't openttd have them? :P
15:59<telanus1>what type of achievements could OpenTTD have?
15:59-!-telanus1 is now known as telanus
15:59<andythenorth>'you built a train: 50 points!'
15:59<frosch123>build 100 trains
16:00<frosch123>transport 1000 tons of coal with one train in a year
16:00<andythenorth>frosch123: achievments or goals? :P
16:00<frosch123>bought 3 opponents within one game
16:00<andythenorth>http://www.diffen.com/difference/Goal_vs_Objective
16:00<frosch123>achievement
16:00<KenjiE20>coop achievement, cover 80% of land in tracks
16:00<telanus>"Build a Airroute that brings in $500000 per trip"
16:02<frosch123>andythenorth: like highscores, but based on different things
16:02<andythenorth>yes
16:02<andythenorth>I am a bit cynical about 'achievements' tbh
16:02<frosch123>things you do not know in advance
16:03<andythenorth>GS could deliver achievments
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16:12<andythenorth>reefer ships have been around a long time :o
16:12<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reefer_ship
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16:14<@peter1138>Evenin'
16:14<Rubidium>EHLO
16:15<@peter1138>I'm not falling into the trap of pretending to be an ESMTP server...
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16:19<frosch123>night
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16:49<@Terkhen>good night
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18:02<LordAro>g'night to anyone who's left
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18:24<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Mon Jul 16 00:00:11 2012