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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-07-17

---Logopened Tue Jul 17 00:00:19 2012
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02:18<@Alberth>wap
02:18<NGC3982>neat.
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02:24<@Terkhen>good morning
02:27<telanus>morning
02:33<NGC3982>El..el
02:33<NGC3982>bah.
02:33<NGC3982>i have ignore on all modes, nicks, parts, quits and joins.
02:36<@Alberth>just don't log on any more :p
02:40<NGC3982>?hehe
02:41<NGC3982>well, im determined to whithold that people should use shells or bnc.
02:41<NGC3982>it's not hard, and ill gladly help setting it up.
02:43<@Alberth>ISP creating stable connections would help a lot more :)
02:50<@planetmaker>moin
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02:58<NGC3982>Alberth: that wont keep people from turning their chat software on and off, sadly. :(
02:59<@Alberth>NGC3982: probably windows machine automagically suspending
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03:29<@Terkhen>valve finally announced steam for linux officially
03:29<Eddi|zuHause>with more than 2 games available?
03:30<@Terkhen>a single one for now, and without release date :P
03:31<Eddi|zuHause>well, would be more interesting if it supported starting windows games in wine then ;)
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03:33<@Terkhen>http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/Linux/ <-- given steam terms of use, I find the references to open source amusing
03:34<@Terkhen>yes, that would be nice, buy I foresee some companies refusing to let people play officially through wine
03:39<@Alberth>does someone have a vim syntax file for NML?
03:42<@Terkhen>Alberth: there are files for notepad++ and geany at the devzone, and also an script for extracting all tikens and putting them in 4 separate groups
03:43<@Terkhen>tokens*
03:43<@Terkhen>stupid phone
03:43*Alberth gives Terkhen a hammer
03:44<@Terkhen>if it is a microscopic hammer it would help me with pushing these keys
03:45<__ln__>keys? that's so 2010's; today everything's touch-touch-touch.
03:45<@Alberth>he touches the keys :p
03:47*NGC3982 hates non-tactile response.
03:51<@Terkhen>they are not physical keys, but they are still keys
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03:55<__ln__>yesterday steve ballmer introduced a new version of Office which is soooooo touch-touch.
03:56*telanus wonders how OpenTTD would play on a touch-screen
03:56<__ln__>telanus: very badly
03:57<@Terkhen>in my experience, unplayable
03:58<@Terkhen>things might be better on a tablet though
03:58<__ln__>something like a 20" touch screen at vga resolution could be playable
03:59<__ln__>yet still not good
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04:18<NGC3982>telanus: i tried to get that web version of ttd deluxe to work on my phone
04:18<NGC3982>sadly with no luck.
04:18<blathijs>__ln__: A friend of mine has a fairly big touch screen, I should get him to install OpenTTD some time :-)
04:32<dihedral>hello
04:35<@Terkhen>hi dihedral
04:35<dihedral>hello sir Terkhen
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09:18<@Belugas>hello
09:20<telanus>olla
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09:31<@peter1138>Herp, and indeed, derp.
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09:44<@Terkhen>hi peter1138
09:47<NGC3982>derp o_==
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09:57<Eddi|zuHause>what does that even mean?
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10:17<NGC3982>its not a word, more then a sound, i guess.
10:17<__ln__>*it's
10:17<@Alberth>that was not the question :)
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11:34<andythenorth>bon
11:34<andythenorth>jour
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11:41<Eddi|zuHause>jovy?
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11:42<V453000>apetit?
11:42<V453000>bon beer?
11:44<andythenorth>tempi
11:45<andythenorth>maker of organs
11:45*andythenorth didn't solve FISH yet
11:45<andythenorth>I saw a nice diagram today
11:45<+glx>old reference andythenorth :)
11:45<andythenorth>glx: je suis old
11:45<andythenorth>diagram was basically 'decide slow, ship fast'
11:45<andythenorth>'get better result'
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11:46<andythenorth>counter idea was 'decide fast, spend months in implementation hell, ship late'
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11:46<andythenorth>so my preferred options for FISH autorefit are
11:46<V453000>ships dont fast.
11:47<andythenorth>(1) fewer ships overall, with cargo subtypes for 'Tanker' 'Cargo Vessel' etc. You can autorefit any cargo within the subtype, but can't cross subtypes except in depot.
11:47<andythenorth>this is similar to current FISH setup, but additionally handles autorefit
11:48<andythenorth>(2) more ships. 'Blah Blah Tanker' etc is a type in the buy menu. Limited range of refits available. Autorefit any within the range.
11:49<andythenorth>this option spams buy menu more, with quite similar looking ships. And I have to invent names and stats, and add them to the grf.
11:49<andythenorth>maybe option 2 adds more interesting variety to FISH, but it has quite a lot of variety already
11:50*andythenorth is grateful for opinions, but is aware that other people's set design problems can be hard to engage with :P
11:50<@Terkhen>I prefer option 1
11:50*FLHerne votes (1)
11:51<FLHerne>And then add more variety, too :P
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11:51<andythenorth>I could add also buy menu text: 'Autorefit: any cargo in same subtype'
11:51<andythenorth>or so
11:51<FLHerne>Don't necessarily let all ships refit to every subtype :-)
11:52<andythenorth>some ships just refit everything anyway
11:52*telanus votes for (1)
11:52<andythenorth>for example, fishing boats carry liquids, but don't have specific tanker graphics
11:52<@planetmaker>"to coal, iron ore, copper ore - but not to bauxite" :-P
11:53<FLHerne>andythenorth: You should forbid them from carrying liquids then :P
11:53<FLHerne>Or massively lower the capacity, to suggest deck-cargo barrels or suchlike
11:54<NGC3982>i like that
11:54<NGC3982>that last one
11:54<andythenorth>maybe, but it's just annoying for gameplay :P
11:54<NGC3982>i really like it.
11:55<@planetmaker>andythenorth: that's not necessarily annoying
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11:55<@planetmaker>every vehicle carries everything is not good gameplay either
11:55<@planetmaker>or everything in the same quantity
11:56<FLHerne>andythenorth: Variation is good for gameplay. Boring homogeny isn't :P
11:56<@planetmaker>with ogfx-trains I chose to have flatbed wagons also carry fuel oil and milk for example
11:56<@planetmaker>But the capacity is about 1/3 ... 1/2 of the tanker wagon - assuming that the flatbed carries cans or barrels
11:57<@planetmaker>so the player *does* have the option to refit. But for maximum capacity the proper vehicle should be used
11:57<andythenorth>hmm
11:58<andythenorth>"(89 passengers or 52t of cargo)"
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11:58<andythenorth>could be extended to "...or 35,000 litres of liquids)
11:58<andythenorth>buy menu gets quit ugly
11:58<andythenorth>+e
11:58<@planetmaker>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/4065#note-5 <-- andythenorth :-)
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12:01<@Terkhen>andythenorth: just choose some cargo groups that make sense
12:01<andythenorth>wrt? :)
12:01<@Terkhen>and some conditions to refit between them
12:02<@Terkhen>autorefit
12:02<FLHerne>What's the gameplay purpose for shipping liquid on tiny boats, anyway?
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12:02<@Terkhen>oil platforms
12:02<andythenorth>dunno, that's up to the industry set
12:02<andythenorth>vehicles shouldn't be making too many decisions about that
12:02<@Terkhen>bbl
12:03<andythenorth>no way of knowing cargos might exist in the game
12:03<andythenorth>FIRS milk ships in small quantities for example
12:03<andythenorth>and chemicals
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13:38<Wolf01>hello
13:39<telanus1>olla
13:39-!-telanus1 is now known as telanus
13:43<FLHerne>olleh :P
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: translators * r24410 /trunk/src/lang/ (afrikaans.txt finnish.txt):
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: afrikaans - 10 changes by telanus
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: finnish - 1 changes by USephiroth
13:47<Sacro>\o/
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14:02*andythenorth ponders adding 'liquid capacity' property to each ship in FISH
14:02<andythenorth>already have pax capacity, mail capacity and cargo capacity
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14:02<andythenorth>any other ever-more-fine distinctions to consider? :o
14:03<andythenorth>fish capacity?
14:03<andythenorth>stuff capacity?
14:03-!-DDR [~chatzilla@d172-218-2-5.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd
14:03<andythenorth>feathers capacity
14:03<andythenorth>if feathers capacity(t) = coal capacity(t), which is heavier?
14:04<andythenorth>pax capacity: commuter
14:04<andythenorth>pax capacity: long distance
14:04<FLHerne>Do your ships run out of mass or volume first? :P
14:04<andythenorth>^^ set cargo aging period appropriately?
14:05<FLHerne>If volume, you could have separate capacity for almost everything :P
14:05<andythenorth>the danger of having a generated grf is that this stuff is *so* easy to add :P
14:05<FLHerne>Commuter/long distance might make sense for a train GRF. Ships not so much
14:06<andythenorth>all the magic might get in the way of providing...a nice mix of vehicles
14:06*FLHerne tries to generate CHIPS-style objects with m4
14:06<andythenorth>ugh
14:06<FLHerne>Copy/paste and sed only go so far :-(
14:06<andythenorth>python
14:06<andythenorth>stop arsing about with macro languages and use a proper scripting language
14:07<FLHerne>Possibly overspecified for a simple object grf? :P
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14:07<andythenorth>[shrug]
14:07<andythenorth>sledgehammer still gets you a cracked nut
14:08<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: if the task is "remove copy-paste", then use a tool that lets you generate the repeated tasks
14:08<andythenorth>I have done the macro language thing
14:08<andythenorth>I don't think it's good enough
14:09<andythenorth>templates should mostly do ${insert_value}
14:09<andythenorth>rather than #omfg.complex_macro_madness
14:09<andythenorth>and the values should be obviously generated in the assembly script
14:09<andythenorth>complex macros in templates just mungles everything
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>that doesn't look like a very well visited channel :p
14:10*andythenorth hopes not
14:10<andythenorth>complex macro templating avoids abstraction at the cost of brainfuck
14:10<andythenorth>may as well just accept the abstraction
14:10<andythenorth>only one kitten dies
14:10<FLHerne>andythenorth: brainfuck has a cost?
14:10<andythenorth>does to me
14:10<andythenorth>ymmv
14:11<andythenorth>I am referring not to the language ;)
14:11<FLHerne>I'll avoid trying to show you my attempt at microcontroller pathfinding then :P
14:11<andythenorth>I dislike trying to parse templates where you need to run the magic in your head to understand what you'll get as the result
14:11<andythenorth>I prefer 'the value here will be the value'
14:12<andythenorth>I don't even trust repeats much :P
14:12<andythenorth>this for example is horribles http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1543/
14:12*andythenorth did that one
14:13*FLHerne fails to see the horribles :P
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14:13<FLHerne>Which bit is meant to be horrible?
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14:14<andythenorth>the calculations
14:15<FLHerne>What's horrible about those?
14:15<andythenorth>hard to parse, ugly code
14:16<andythenorth>doesn't in anyway explain wtf is going on
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14:16<devilsadvocate>I can't seem to find FIRS in the in-game content downloading system. can anyone tell me why that would be?
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14:18<FLHerne>It looks like it's allocating sprites based on ship speed? Not sure what the 0.45s are for though :P
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14:20<andythenorth>magic :P
14:21<andythenorth>can't remember
14:23<FLHerne>Looks intelligible with explanatory comments :P
14:24<andythenorth>anyway, I'm biased in favour of python
14:24<andythenorth>others will have alternative biases
14:25*andythenorth discounts lower cargo capacity for liquids
14:25<andythenorth>goods also travels in packing crates etc
14:25<andythenorth>so the barrels / churns argument doesn't hold
14:25<andythenorth>higher capacity for specific tanker refits I would consider
14:25<andythenorth>because it makes a bit more interest
14:26<andythenorth>and because tankers service oil platforms, which get high production in some sets
14:26<andythenorth>desirable?
14:26<andythenorth>10% extra or so
14:26<Eddi|zuHause>just take a larger ship then
14:26<Eddi|zuHause>not too much magic with capacities
14:27<andythenorth>+0.5
14:27<andythenorth>I don't like magic capacities too much, it makes buying ships harder
14:27<andythenorth>especially if the difference is 10% or so
14:27<andythenorth>but it seems to be wanted...
14:28<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: 'autorefit only within same subtype' is an extension of something you proposed. ta
14:28*andythenorth mentions that as an aside
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14:37<frosch123>what makes you think so`
14:37<FLHerne>Almost everyone disconnecting and reconnecting? :P
14:37<Wolf01>no, the clouds outside of the window
14:38<frosch123>maybe they all thought suddendly that ottd is crap
14:38<frosch123>but then reconsidered that idling here is fine nevertheless
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14:42<andythenorth>frosch123: I'm convinced by your argument
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14:45<frosch123>calling yourself idling does not convince me though
14:47<frosch123>you will have a hard time with idling, once the topic gets to cargo classes, refitting or rv wagons
14:47<frosch123>or vehicle smoke :p
14:48<andythenorth>meh
14:48<andythenorth>replace me with a bot
14:48<andythenorth>it's easy
14:49<Wakou>Hi guys I was doin an update of my opensuse install, and noticed that an openGFX file was upgraded. How do I check the versions? What has changed?
14:50<frosch123>check the changelog
14:51<frosch123>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/opengfx/repository/entry/docs/changelog.txt
14:52-!-mode/#openttd [+v orudge] by ChanServ
14:52-!-mode/#openttd [+v DorpsGek] by ChanServ
14:52-!-mode/#openttd [+v Belugas] by ChanServ
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15:28<Wolf01>http://www.bestoldgames.net/eng/old-games/locomotion.php still better game than it's homonymous
15:30<__ln__>anyone tried this? http://store.steampowered.com/app/65235/
15:32<Wolf01>lol?
15:36*andythenorth does ponder
15:36<andythenorth>right, so autorefit within subtypes
15:36<frosch123>http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/diffs/settingtype.diff http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/settingtype.png <- someone has some better (read: shorter) texts to show there?
15:37<andythenorth>but should I provide 'Oil (Tanker)' and 'Oil (General Cargo)'
15:37-!-prooz [prooz@eddie.slaskete.net] has joined #openttd
15:37<andythenorth>to cover the case of barrels and crap
15:37<prooz>Is there a setting i can use on my server to make the time go slower?
15:38<andythenorth>no
15:38<frosch123>you can auto-pause the server when no client is connected
15:38<andythenorth>that's definitely slower :)
15:38<andythenorth>frosch123: wording looks ok to me
15:38<prooz>I calculated that 100 years = 15 hrs
15:38<prooz>So that's not verry much
15:38<frosch123>andythenorth: it's too long :)
15:38<andythenorth>-changes
15:39<andythenorth>'affects only the current company'
15:39<andythenorth>-Company setting?
15:39<frosch123>i wondered about cutting the "stored in savegame" part
15:39<andythenorth>maybe
15:39<andythenorth>I wonder how that's useful
15:39<andythenorth>what does end user do with this info, other than be interested?
15:39<andythenorth>what decisions does it support?
15:40<frosch123>fs#5244
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15:40<frosch123>users currently complain about changes in settings dialog not applying to their game, or to new games
15:41<frosch123>so i would like a catching word like "game/client/company setting" and a short description of what that means
15:41<andythenorth>oh
15:41<andythenorth>is that why I keep getting annoyed about my settings disappearing?
15:41<andythenorth>I set things, then they go away again
15:42<andythenorth>I thought it was YetAnotherOSX bug
15:42<frosch123>might be both :p
15:42<andythenorth>hmm
15:42<andythenorth>is changing this more lipstick on the pig? :)
15:43<frosch123>actually, i also need the reverse descriptions for the intro gui settings
15:43<andythenorth>is the issue 'the main start the game gui smells bad?'
15:43<frosch123>"stored in save; affects new games only"
15:43*andythenorth finds settings confusing
15:44<andythenorth>I have permanent "can't build while pause" rage, but the settings never persist for that
15:44<andythenorth>afaict
15:44*andythenorth might be doing it wrong
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15:44<andythenorth>I pause to save battery whilst coding newgrf
15:44<andythenorth>then I test newgrf and get rage
15:44<andythenorth>"you may not build any vehicles"
15:44<andythenorth>"you may not build any stations"
15:44<andythenorth>:P
15:45*andythenorth experiments
15:45<andythenorth>hmm
15:45<andythenorth>that setting persists
15:46*andythenorth has been having a lot of easily solved rage
15:46<NGC3982>http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6ytds9nRw1qzul5to1_400.gif
15:47<andythenorth>hmm
15:47-!-KritiK [~Maxim@95-25-177-187.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd
15:47<andythenorth>doesn't persist if set in game
15:47<andythenorth>only if set at main menu
15:48<andythenorth>ah
15:49<andythenorth>doesn't persist if you control-d a 'make run' game
15:49<andythenorth>ctrl-c /s
15:49*andythenorth is probably an edge case :P
15:51<frosch123>diff has two more strings to optimise
15:54<andythenorth>which ones?
15:54<frosch123>the _MENU ones
15:56*NGC3982 watches the first episode of deep space nine.
15:56<NGC3982>it took me 13 months to complete the next generation.
15:56<NGC3982>:P
15:57<andythenorth>frosch123: use similar to the _INGAME versions?
15:57<andythenorth>looks simple to me...
15:57<frosch123>they are similiar, but kind of the reverse
15:58<prooz>Hmm. Is there a way to change text etc. when using windowed mode?
15:58<andythenorth>"stored in save; affects current company only" ?
16:00<andythenorth>blearch
16:00<frosch123>yeah, that becomes better
16:00<frosch123>updated diff
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16:00<andythenorth>'cargo subtype' should be renamed 'vehicle subtype'
16:01<frosch123>it's called refit cycle anyway
16:01<andythenorth>nml disagrees :P
16:02<frosch123>maybe because that name is even more misleading than cargo subtype :)
16:02<andythenorth>'subtype'
16:03<andythenorth>it may be stupid, but it's allowed for some creative uses at least ;)
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16:03<andythenorth>if it was less dumb, we might have been able to do less with it
16:03<andythenorth>worse is better :p
16:09<andythenorth>hmm
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16:10<andythenorth>if I have subtype strings, e.g. 'Oil (Tanker)', 'Goods (Cargo Holds)', 'Coal (Cargo Holds)'
16:10<andythenorth>what do I do for pax?
16:10<andythenorth>'Passengers (Cabins)' ?
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16:13<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3127/subtypes.png
16:13<andythenorth>not terrible, but not great :P
16:16<andythenorth>more evil: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3128/subtypes_2.png
16:18<CIA-4>OpenTTD: frosch * r24411 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt settings_gui.cpp): -Add [FS#5244-ish]: Display the a setting type in the adv. settings description which explains the scope of changes to a particular setting.
16:18<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3129/subtypes_3.png ?
16:19<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3130/subtypes_4.png
16:19<andythenorth>crowd votes?
16:20<telanus>I'd go with 4
16:20<Warod>4
16:21<frosch123>how does to colour look in other guis?
16:21<frosch123>e.g. vehicle details
16:22<frosch123>or are they all grey?
16:23<andythenorth>frosch123: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3131/subtypes_4b.png
16:23<andythenorth>usually gold
16:23<andythenorth>I usually stick to same colours as default game
16:23<andythenorth>I don't like random colours being added by grfs :P
16:23<andythenorth>there's no precedent I can remember for using Silver
16:23<frosch123>i mean the vehicle details, the window that shows the current load
16:23<andythenorth>in vehicle context
16:24<andythenorth>1 min
16:24<andythenorth>cyan there
16:25<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3132/subtypes_4v.png
16:25<andythenorth>the silver looks bad
16:26*andythenorth suspects using colour string codes here is a Bad Idea
16:26<andythenorth>the subtype string might get reused in as yet unknown places
16:28<FLHerne>Do you intend to have more subtypes than that? :P
16:29<frosch123>passengers - barrels
16:29*FLHerne would like a distinction between bulk and piece goods
16:29<frosch123>passengers - bulky
16:29<frosch123>passengers - oversized
16:30<andythenorth>passengers: countable
16:30<andythenorth>passengers: uncountable
16:30<andythenorth>FLHerne: why more distinctions?
16:30<andythenorth>to make gameplay more annoying?
16:30<andythenorth>:)
16:32<FLHerne>No, I mean to separate coal/mud/stone/grain (loaded by conveyor, big holds) from vehicles/timber/steel (loaded by crane, needs separate decks)
16:33<FLHerne>So Cabins, Tanks, Holds (with hopper loading), Holds, (with crane loading)
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16:33<FLHerne>remove last comma, or that doesn't make sense :P
16:34<frosch123>excellent... passengers - with crane loading
16:34<FLHerne>What? That would be fun, but hardly realistic :P
16:35*telanus wave good night
16:35<FLHerne>telanus: Night
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16:36<andythenorth>FLHerne: 12 monkeys
16:37<FLHerne>andythenorth: Eh? (Misses reference/metaphor/turn of phrase/relevance)
16:39<frosch123>12 monkey is a cool movie; though that's all i remember about it
16:40<frosch123>hmm, i think it involved time travel and a virus
16:41*FLHerne boggles at the drasic, seemingly random subject change :P
16:41<frosch123>i think the main character in 12 monkey constantly wonders about what's real and what not
16:42<frosch123>the time travels confuses him, so he cannot tell apart which future/past is a dream or not
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16:45*andythenorth had the wrong Terry Gilliam film
16:46<NGC3982>ooh, terry gilliam <3.
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16:47*andythenorth was thinking of Brazil
16:47<andythenorth>and cages of people
16:51<andythenorth>for the size of the ships in FISH, dry cargo vs. bulk isn't really a distinction
16:51<andythenorth>they're just coasters and river boats
16:52<andythenorth>I don't see the gain for gameplay in forcing the split
16:52<andythenorth>it's just annoying, and runs smack into the cargos-have-multiple-classes issue
16:52<andythenorth>maybe I miss something :P
16:52-!-Pixa [~pixa@79-68-97-109.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:53<FLHerne>andythenorth: Interest :P
16:54<FLHerne>Anyway, those Patraikos things are hardly small coasters :P
16:54<andythenorth>they're only 1k tonnes
16:55<FLHerne>They're also the largest ships you could usefully draw for OTTD :P
16:56<FLHerne>They glitch enough already :-(
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16:57<frosch123>you should draw ship in the shape of icebergs then
16:58<frosch123>small figure at the top, so no glitches; yet huge in total
16:58<FLHerne>How would you know what size it was, then?
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17:02<andythenorth>we have a submarine in a ship grf somewhere
17:07<andythenorth>good night
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17:08<frosch123>night
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17:43<__ln__>@seen Bjarni
17:43<@DorpsGek>__ln__: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 40 weeks, 4 days, 21 hours, 23 minutes, and 55 seconds ago: <Bjarni> heh
17:47<Wolf01>heh... 40 weeks
17:50<NGC3982>is there a limit on how much a secondary industry can produce?
17:53<Eddi|zuHause>yes
17:53<Eddi|zuHause>255 per tile every 256 ticks (8 or 9 times a month)
17:58<NGC3982>i see
17:58<NGC3982>thank you.
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18:00<@Terkhen>good night
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18:47<Wolf01>'night
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19:13<LordAro>dammit, i'm not asleep yet -_-
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