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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-07-18

---Logopened Wed Jul 18 00:00:21 2012
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03:04<@Terkhen>good morning
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03:21<@Terkhen>hi telanus
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04:56<@Alberth>nothing to see here, just a bunch of users that cannot be bothered to fix their connections
04:57<NGC3982>maglev is almost cheating.
04:59<dihedral>NGC3982, why is that?
05:00<NGC3982>it's so easy it's almost boring
05:00<NGC3982>for some reason.
05:00<NGC3982>although, my argument is not a serious one
05:00<NGC3982>im just bored out of my mind.
05:05<dihedral>then you are not challenging yourself properly
05:08<@planetmaker>NGC3982: use a very mountainous map. 40% water. terraform on water 1 million per tile. map size 256^2. starting date 1940. cargo weight factor 5
05:08<@planetmaker>bridge length < 10 tiles.
05:09<@planetmaker>recommended newgrfs: fish
05:10-!-GBerten2936 is now known as lugo
05:10<NGC3982>planetmaker: difficulty level: planetmaker.
05:10<NGC3982>ill try it.
05:11<@planetmaker>hehe :-)
05:11<TWerkhoven>breakdowns: on ?
05:11<@planetmaker>I'd play without. To me they don't add to the game
05:11<@planetmaker>they just annoy me
05:11<@Alberth>you need more tracks to compensate for them
05:12<@planetmaker>yes and no. You can hardly build such that breakdowns won't block crucial points
05:12<@planetmaker>you can't make everything redundant as even then trains break on the lane switches
05:13<@planetmaker>so you can just leave that be to add further redundant tracks
05:13<@Alberth>you'll hit the upper limit of what you can put on a track much faster
05:13<@planetmaker>that's true
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05:14<@planetmaker>I like networks at 95% capacity without breakdowns though :-)
05:14<@Alberth>mine are more 20%-40% used :)
05:16<@Alberth>I need to work on stations, in my current game, 5 platforms are not enough for unloading cargo
05:16<@Alberth>which for you is tiny, probably :)
05:18<@planetmaker>oh, that depends. On a 256^2 map that can be quite decent
05:18<@planetmaker>of course I did build bigger stations. But that's most often a matter of scaling a concept which fits itself onto 4, 6 or 8 tracks
05:19<@planetmaker>without breakdowns, you need 6 to 8 station tracks for a mainline running at full capacity
05:20<@planetmaker>assuming that the exit of the station is as good (fast) as the entry ;-)
05:21<@Alberth>512x256, I'll make a few pictures
05:22<@peter1138>The problem with widescreen monitors is they encourage long lines of code...
05:24<@Alberth>yeah, we should have a max line length :p
05:24*Alberth gives peter1138 a piece of paper and some tape
05:31<@planetmaker>the main problem I see there, Alberth, is the exit of the central coal station
05:31<@planetmaker>it can easily be blocked by a single train going diagonal
05:33<NGC3982>limiting conjuctions usually speeds things up, as long as you keep track of the amount of queue time per tile.
05:33<@Alberth>that does not happen much, it is for exiting at the tunnel. Most of those trains take the rightmost platform and pose no proplem
05:34<@Alberth>NGC3982: coal is limited, you can go 1 platform left, straight, or 1 platform right
05:34<@planetmaker>also: you place signals immediately after the junction. Might not be optimal there
05:34<@Alberth>but the tracks are almost empty, they spend their time either loading or unloading
05:35<@planetmaker>the block signals I mean
05:35<@planetmaker>allow one train length so that no train can wait, blocking the exit
05:35<@Alberth>yeah, that can be improved indeed
05:36<@Alberth>but it sort of comes in heaps, all trains load, rush to this station, unload, go back etc
05:40<@planetmaker>yep. And congestion when it comes in heaps. ;-)
05:41<@planetmaker>I like networks with one continuous heap :-P
05:41<@planetmaker>it shows nicely the the efficiency of different building types
05:41<@planetmaker>and layouts
05:42<@planetmaker>and, tbh, most fun is to rebuild the stuff while upkeeping operation :-)
05:42<@Alberth>oh, I always do that :)
05:42<@planetmaker>lenght? yes!
05:42<@planetmaker>fun? Sure! :-)
05:43<@Alberth>except when upgrading to a new rail type
05:43<@planetmaker>that's not feasible indeed. But... I hardly do that
05:43<@planetmaker>at least when it's an incompatible railtype
05:43<@planetmaker>like rail->mono->maglev rarely happens on my maps
05:44<@planetmaker>rail->erail works just by drag+drop the whole map :-P
05:44<@Alberth>I once did that by building new tracks and platforms etc everywhere in the new railtype, adding new trains, and then breaking down the old service
05:45<@Alberth>which is also a lot of fun, as there is no room for the new tracks :p
05:46<@Alberth>so either you have to make room, or you have to find a new place for them, or you have to reroute the old tracks to some temporary place
05:47<@Alberth>and usually you do combinations of the above :) "Sorry guys, you have just one track for this part now"
05:50<@planetmaker>yeah, something like that
05:50<@planetmaker>big station don't fit everywhere
05:51<@Alberth>maybe we should make the 'upgrade' button a cheat :p
05:53<Pinkbeast>It's vexing enough when you are reminded, unpleasantly, that even with double-diagonal, there's only one track type per tile.
05:54<@planetmaker>Alberth: for incompatible maybe ;-)
05:54<@planetmaker>but then it will be cheated around by means of a "universal" railtype
05:54<@Alberth>Pinkbeast: yeah, you need a lot more space, unfortunately
05:55<Pinkbeast>Particularly in the UKRS world where the whole network is not, ever, moving to maglev
05:58<@Alberth>Upgrading to a new railtype once is useful for the game imho, but doing it twice feels a bit forced due to lack of challenges imho
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06:01<@planetmaker>it depends imho how it's used. By simply improving the existing rail, it's good
06:01<@planetmaker>like slow rail->medium rail->modern rail->highspeed rail
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06:03<@Alberth>It would be useful if railtypes are not so incompatible perhaps. rail->elrail is mostly fun as you can gradually upgrade
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06:03<Varazir>Hello , can I setup my own server and where can I read how to do it ?
06:04<@Alberth>at the wiki, mostly
06:04<@Alberth>or search at the forums, there are many people posting about it
06:04<Varazir>I'm there
06:05<Pinkbeast>NuTracks has done a lot here although it's a pity about the 16-type limit.
06:05<@planetmaker>there's basically no magic to it, Varazir. All you need to ensure is that the server is reachable via the necessary ports - as configured in the cfg
06:05<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
06:05<Varazir>ya that's easy to setup
06:06<Varazir>but where do I download the server ?
06:06<@planetmaker>then start openttd as multiplayer for the internet. Voila. No special binary
06:06<@Alberth>Pinkbeast: I should checkout NuTracks thus. Thanks
06:06<@planetmaker>every client can act as server
06:07<@Alberth>Varazir: the server program is just another openttd instance
06:08<Varazir>ahhh ok
06:09<Varazir>I have a ESXi server I thought just install openttd on a linux system
06:10<@planetmaker>you *can* compile openttd without gui. But it's not needed
06:11<Varazir>so I need to run it on a linux system that runs X ?
06:11<@Alberth>there are many servers already (more than we have clients). What we really need is a sever that is actively managed
06:12<@planetmaker>Varazir: if you want to use the pre-compiled binaries, you need X installed
06:12<@planetmaker>if you want a gui-less dedicated server, you need to compile yourself
06:12<@planetmaker>use an svn checkout for that exclusively
06:13<Varazir>ok well I have a vm that's running ubuntu with X
06:13<@planetmaker>you'll need sdl runtime lib
06:13<@peter1138>X doesn't have to be running...
06:13<@peter1138>Just installed.
06:14<lugo>i'm not sure, do you also need X for running a dedicated (-D) instance of a pre-compiled binary?
06:14<Varazir>ok I'm running some other stuff on that
06:14<@planetmaker>as peter says
06:14<@planetmaker>lugo: yes. installed
06:14<@planetmaker>not running
06:14<@peter1138>It could be fixed by making the video driver a shared object.
06:15<@peter1138>Falls under TMWFLB
06:16<@peter1138>Not even sure if that would work seeing as several drivers rely on the same library.
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06:50<FLHerne>So I could use the GUI without X running? Or is that just for dedicated server?
06:51<@planetmaker>no X: no GUI running
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06:52<FLHerne>planetmaker: Aw. Makes sense, I suppose :-(
06:52<FLHerne>Otherwise I could save a fair bit of CPU time :P
06:55<@Alberth>you cannot use it anyway, as the clients need to run in sync with you :p
06:55<FLHerne>True. I'd need to get more laptops out :P
06:56<NGC3982>what happends at year 3000?
06:56<NGC3982>time is no longer counted?
06:57<@planetmaker>stonehenge collapses
06:58<NGC3982>that's a shame.
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07:19<Eddi|zuHause>the martian calender predicts the end of the world by 3012
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07:21<@peter1138>So, I decided to take my work back under ground, to stop it from falling into the wrong hands.
07:44<@peter1138>The Voodoo who do what you don't dare to people
07:55<NGC3982>my god
07:55<NGC3982>i got the chills when i read that
07:55<NGC3982>it have been so many years since i listened to some ass-kicking prodigy.
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09:12<Eddi|zuHause>i got chills patchpack, does that count? :p
09:13<@planetmaker>if you implement an ALU in it, it might
09:14<@planetmaker>otherwise it just exists ;-)
09:27<@Alberth>chilling with chills patchpack.... sounds good
09:36*Belugas thinks about chilling with a beer (or/and more than one) and a guit by the pool
09:39<@Alberth>depends on the weather :)
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10:07<@Belugas>today, the weather is spot on, yesterday, it felt like humid europ :)
10:09*peter1138 thinks about boobs
10:14<telanus>it's way too cold to lounge at the pool
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11:16<NGC3982>magic people voodoo people!
11:16*NGC3982 dances wildly
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11:23*FLHerne flees from the insane lunatic :P
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11:33<andythenorth>Ammler: how much ram does redmine eat? And is it easy to install?
11:40<Ammler>1G and yes :-)
11:41<Ammler>maybe better calc with 2
11:42<Ammler>there are lots of alternatives, you know...
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11:46<andythenorth>Ammler: I know, I like our redmine though
11:46<andythenorth>trying to get off trac
11:46<andythenorth>*too many* alternatives is part of the problem
11:46<andythenorth>something needs to just win
11:47<Rubidium>just use google code ;)
11:48<@peter1138>Hmm, so... memory prices...
11:48<andythenorth>crucial :P
11:49<Rubidium>my memory is priceless
11:49<@peter1138>in the UK, sold on ebay for between £150 and £210
11:49<@peter1138>in the uS, sold on ebay from £10
11:50<Rubidium>maybe the US ones fell off a truck?
11:50<@peter1138>probably not official cisco parts, but then there's no guarantee the UK stuff is either
11:51<@peter1138>crucial don't list this model
11:52<@peter1138>and i have tried some standard 1GB memory modules
11:52<@peter1138>they fit but don't work
11:52<@peter1138>annoyingly, the hardware is pretty much just a PC anyway :S
11:54<@peter1138>ASA5500-CF-512MB=Cisco flash memory card - 512 MB - CompactFlashNEW
11:54<@peter1138>ah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
11:54<Ammler>andythenorth: well, altenrative like github or bitbucket
11:55<Ammler>dedicate the whole sysadmin stuff away ;-)
11:57<andythenorth>considering it
11:57<Ammler>if you want to host souces, you should also check rhodecode
11:57<Ammler>then you need a tracker, thugh
11:57<andythenorth>it's the tracker that's really sought
11:57<andythenorth>we have existing repos hosted
11:58<andythenorth>and can't get off them easily
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12:06<Ammler>converting existing sources to hg (or git) would be worth anyway
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12:10<andythenorth>not when your staff don't want to leave svn ;)
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12:12<Ammler>you think, they would quit, if forced to use a DVCS?
12:12<andythenorth>forced does't go well
12:13<Ammler>anyway, for svn, redmine is good
12:14<andythenorth>I like RM
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12:17<Ammler>how do you auth for the svn?
12:17<andythenorth>not sure
12:17<andythenorth>trac I think
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13:09<andythenorth>lead@inbox has asked for help checking his English translations here:
13:10<andythenorth>I'm a bit short of time to help him
13:10<andythenorth>but it would be nice if we could between us
13:10<andythenorth>(He's Russian)
13:21<FLHerne>Interesting :-) So a vac-formed aircraft built around a kite-frame like structure?
13:22<andythenorth>seems so
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13:28<andythenorth>he's lead@inbox on the tt-forums if anyone can help him with English corrections
13:28<andythenorth>(he rendered quite a lot of FISH for me, which is how I know him)
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13:35<FLHerne>andythenorth: "I'm considering converting most of HEQS to be rail vehicles instead of road" Really? :o
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13:36<andythenorth>really considering it
13:37<andythenorth>if we can get a 'proceed on clear sight ahead' modification to the train pathfinder, it should work really well
13:37<andythenorth>and modifying the pathfinder has been done loads
13:37<andythenorth>and is far more likely I think than roadtypes
13:37<andythenorth>having to signal roads would be boring :P
13:37<FLHerne>Breaks Nutracks compatibility, more random railtypes, lack of common sense :-(
13:38<FLHerne>Just get someone (r) to do roadtypes :P
13:38<andythenorth>how does it breaks Nutracks? :o
13:39<FLHerne>Defines too many railtypes already, depending on completeness of trainset
13:39<andythenorth>ach, it's too big then :)
13:40<FLHerne>But five different speed limits and three electrification types... :P
13:40<andythenorth>I'm not going to reject a good idea because of what one other grf does :)
13:40<andythenorth>railtypes makes a lot more sense for most of HEQS
13:40<FLHerne>andythenorth: It isn't a good idea :P
13:41<andythenorth>it will provide more variety in road transport
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13:42<Wolf01>hi Chris_Booth
13:42<Chris_Booth>hi Wolf01
13:42<FLHerne>andythenorth: Presumably the trams stay as trams...?
13:42<andythenorth>trams make no sense as trains
13:42<andythenorth>I am thinking of converting the mining trucks and other large vehicles
13:43<andythenorth>they shouldn't travel on normal roads anyway
13:43<FLHerne>And crawlers?
13:43<andythenorth>yup, rail
13:43<andythenorth>the larger ones
13:44<andythenorth>maybe not the small ones
13:44<FLHerne>Not so bothered about the trucks (never use them anyway :P), but I'd have to drop the crawlers :-(
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: with "drive on sight", how do you solve opposing-vehicle-directions issue?
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: translators * r24412 /trunk/src/lang/ (dutch.txt english_US.txt finnish.txt korean.txt russian.txt):
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: dutch - 6 changes by habell
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: english_US - 6 changes by Rubidium
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: finnish - 6 changes by jpx_
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: korean - 45 changes by telk5093
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: russian - 6 changes by Lone_Wolf
13:46<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: one way tracks?
13:46*FLHerne votes 'no' (despite not being a vote)
13:46<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: bad.
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13:47<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: e.g. terminus stations have two-way sections
13:47<andythenorth>shall I just code it, and we'll figure out the pathfinders / signals later?
13:48<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i'm pretty sure i have a -1 on the railtypes idea...
13:48<FLHerne>Just do it as RVs, and figure out roadtypes later :P
13:49<andythenorth>FLHerne: they are RVs, and roadtypes is a -1
13:49<Zahl>does anyone know what exactly makes towns shrink? i tried increasing TOWN_GROWTH_TICKS to make them grow slower, but now they shrink when you deliver goods or passengers
13:50<FLHerne>andythenorth: Leave it as RVs then, and code some nice ships or something :P
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>Zahl: every house has a "lifetime", at the end of that lifetime it dies
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>Zahl: so you have to increase the lifetime (some daylength patches did that)
13:50<Zahl>ah i see, thanks :)
13:52*andythenorth doesn't see the issue
13:52<andythenorth>roadtypes aren't available
13:52<andythenorth>railtypes are
13:52<andythenorth>conclusion: use railtypes
13:52<andythenorth>problem solved
13:52<FLHerne>No, problem nastily tangled :-(
13:52<andythenorth>use what we have instead of dreaming of something that we'll never have
13:53<FLHerne>If you did that for every desired feature, surely the entire game would be one huge bodge? :P
13:54<andythenorth>entropy and code travel together
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: hacks like that tend to haunt you forever...
13:55<andythenorth>yes, but ultimately you die, and they go away
13:55<andythenorth>it's done no harm to PHP, wordpress, drupal...
13:56<andythenorth>nor, apparently, Dwarf Fortress
13:56<andythenorth>nor, for that matter, newgrf station spec
13:57<Eddi|zuHause>newgrf station spec is horrible, and a blocker for many important features. the least of which nml support...
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14:09<andythenorth>yeah...that :)
14:09<andythenorth>"HEQS as trains" is not a spec though
14:09<andythenorth>it doesn't do much in the way of breaking other things in future
14:09<andythenorth>it's just a quirk
14:10<@Alberth>they just break the "useless" part of useless tracks :p
14:10<andythenorth>heh :)
14:11<andythenorth>the cable cars grf is completely inappropriate for trains, but nobody said that the sky was falling when he released it
14:12<@Alberth>it's a nice novelty
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14:13<@Alberth>I don't know what to think of HEQS trains, mostly because I don't use rv very often
14:14<andythenorth>mostly I think "I can make the trucks bigger" :P
14:14<andythenorth>which is probably untrue
14:14<andythenorth>due to clipping
14:14<andythenorth>can I ban tunnels?
14:15<@Alberth>you also need some station tiles that don't look like station tiles
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14:16<frosch123>andythenorth: main problem are those tracksets which want to use all 16 track types just for using them
14:16<frosch123>we should tracktypes to 8 per grf :p
14:16<andythenorth>Alberth: stations are an interesting point
14:16*andythenorth considers specialist stations for unloading trucks
14:18<andythenorth>also bridges might need thought
14:18<andythenorth>and signals
14:18<andythenorth>but I can now do trolley-assist mine trucks
14:20<@Alberth>a tram :)
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14:42<NGC3982>im unabled to find references to pax delivers to oil rigs, should increase oil production
14:42<NGC3982>so i guess it doesnt?
14:42<@planetmaker>I think it doesn't
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think it does
14:44<andythenorth>transported cargo increases production
14:44<andythenorth>I am 99% guessing
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>but only that same cargo
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>the two cargo outputs develop independently
14:45*Rubidium wonders whether George has coded his GRFs to behave that way
14:45<NGC3982>and pulling pax of oil rigs, should have the same (non-existant) effekt then, i guess.
14:46<Rubidium>but for the standard game there's no influence of passenger transport on cargo production
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>wasn't there "soylent green steel"? :p
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14:54<NGC3982>Rubidium: i see.
14:55<NGC3982>soviet climate
14:55<NGC3982>soylent industry chain.
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>what does that have to do with each other?
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15:03<Eddi|zuHause> <-- haha. "walking on the tracks is forbidden on sundays and working days"... so if it wouldn't say this explicitly, it would only apply to working days otherwise? :)
15:04<Eddi|zuHause>what about holidays?
15:05<frosch123>yeah, just wanted to say that
15:05<frosch123>it's allowed on holidays which are no sundays
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>this is in switzerland, btw.
15:06<frosch123>maybe they do not consider saturdays workdays over there?
15:10<Rubidium>most track work is done on saturdays and sundays, so those are obviously working days
15:10<Rubidium>on the other days the train drivers are working, so simply every day is a working day
15:11<Rubidium>and if the day doesn't work out, isn't that the day you wander on tracks trying to catch a train?
15:11<@Alberth>no trains in the weekend?
15:14<Rubidium>then there's also the question when a day starts/ends ;)
15:15<Rubidium>e.g. ProRail at least has days that run from 07:00 until 06:59
15:24<CIA-4>OpenTTD: frosch * r24413 /trunk/src/tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp: -Add [FS#5221-ish]: Allow overbuilding bridges with the same type when adding a roadtype.
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15:25<CIA-4>OpenTTD: frosch * r24414 /trunk/src/road_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#5221]: Disallow removing roadtypes from bridges when not dragging in bridge direction.
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15:30*NGC3982 didnt notice the new accepted changes in longivety factor for the drak equation.
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16:45<FLHerne>@fs 5221
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16:49<LordAro>apparently i was wrong :L
16:51<frosch123>i have no idea how he made a relation from there to roadtypes :)
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16:58<FLHerne>Why not allow building the extra type from anywhere on the tile, rather than restricting the ability to remove it?
16:59<FLHerne>Surely there can only be one bridgehead on that tile anyway?
16:59<frosch123>the difference is when dragging road
17:05<LordAro>frosch123: looking back at the ticket, i have no idea how i made that relation either :L
17:09<FLHerne>frosch123: What happens differently when you drag road? :P
17:10<frosch123>when dragging road it build from where you started dragging until it fails
17:10<frosch123>it should stop at bridges, and not continue under them
17:11<frosch123>esp. when dragging from under the bridge
17:12<FLHerne>Oh, I see. So it succeeds on the first half (and builds over the bridge) but then fails intentionally on the second half of the tile?
17:13<frosch123>somewhat like that, but only if you actually drag till the first half
17:13<frosch123>ofc you can try to further improve it :)
17:22<@Terkhen>good night
17:29<FLHerne>Terkhen: night
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18:26<@planetmaker>good night
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---Logclosed Thu Jul 19 00:00:23 2012