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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-07-19

---Logopened Thu Jul 19 00:00:23 2012
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02:26<@Terkhen>good morning
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02:33<telanus>is it Morning already?
02:34*telanus is very tired
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03:13<dihedral>good morning
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03:17-!-mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ
03:17<@Alberth>hi hi
03:19<telanus1>hell My Telecom line sux today :(
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03:22<@Alberth>find a new provider ?
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05:04-!-mode/#openttd [+o peter1138] by ChanServ
05:04<@peter1138>Good morning.
05:13<@peter1138>Anyone here rich enough to own a retina MBP yet? heh
05:16-!-telanus1 is now known as telanus
05:31<@Terkhen>some people in the forum are :P
05:31<@Terkhen>hi peter1138
05:34<@Alberth>some others refuse to support a company that does not support GPL
05:36<@peter1138>Oh, shall we drop Windows, OS X, OS/2 and Morphos support?
05:36<@peter1138>(Actually maybe not OS/2, I don't know what IBM are up to these days)
05:40<@Alberth>no need, the program gets buggy on its own in time due to lack of skilled people for the OS
05:53<@Terkhen>well, windows license does not prevent running GPL software (for now)
05:59<@Alberth>yep, and the VS2011 free compiler incident shows how reliable that is
06:01<@planetmaker>what was that incident?
06:05<@Alberth>"we're not going to release a free VS2011 compiler version", they changed their mind two weeks later
06:06<Eddi|zuHause>what does that have to do with GPL?
06:07<@Alberth>cp Makefile.local.sample Makefile.local ; sed -i s/_V = @/_V =/ Makefile.local is supposed to give me echo-ing of commands as they are executed?
06:07<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: it nicely demonstrates how much they care about developers not under their control
06:08<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds awfully conspiracy-y to me...
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06:10<@planetmaker>Alberth: just use make _V=
06:10<Eddi|zuHause>anyone else having Civ2 crashing in wine? (apparently in winevdm.exe) ... also the sound is distorted (probably related)
06:10<@Alberth>planetmaker: where?
06:10<@planetmaker>but yes, doing that in Makefile.local also works. I meant as command line parameter
06:10<@Alberth>there are toooo many makefiles
06:10<@planetmaker>yes, there are
06:11<@planetmaker>when calling make. You can instead of just "make" use "make _V="
06:12<@planetmaker>Alberth: dirty... but temp grass:
06:12<@planetmaker>when merging opengfx and zbase
06:13<@planetmaker>it really needs formatted strings in nml templates :-)
06:13<@planetmaker>would make it much shorter
06:13<Hirundo>planetmaker: wait 5 minutes... :-)
06:13<@planetmaker>as then the filename offsets like you defined (in the now deleted generation) can be used there
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06:14<@planetmaker>Hirundo: just playing. Not committing anything :-)
06:14<Eddi|zuHause>just allow string-concatenation?
06:14<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: "%04d" % (base+offset)
06:15<Eddi|zuHause>very python-ish :)
06:17<Hirundo>It will be format_string("%s%04d", "zBase", 12)
06:17<@planetmaker>nice :-)
06:17<Hirundo>With possibly template foo(a, b) ... format_string("%s%d", a, b)
06:18<@planetmaker>also nice :-)
06:22<@Terkhen>Alberth: that's why I said for now :P
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08:36<dihedral>:o glx did not say hello :-(
08:36<+glx>I rarely say hello here ;)
08:37<dihedral>ah :-)
08:37<dihedral>peter1138, i thought Microsoft did support OpenSource (with a certain definition of 'support')
08:50<@Belugas>i (most of the time) always do, me!
09:00<@peter1138>Hurr, executing an UPDATE in SQL. So far it's taken 2 hours 24 minutes...
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09:12<dihedral>that must be one heck of a statement or there is a lock :-P
09:12<@Alberth>or a big query on a small machine :p
09:13<@Belugas>or an update on non indexed data fields...
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09:16<FLHerne>Is there a way to stop a running GS, similar to stop_ai?
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09:19<FLHerne>Alternatively, is there any way to change GS settings without starting another game?
09:22<@planetmaker>I believe there is not
09:25<FLHerne>planetmaker :-(
09:26<FLHerne>Presumably in case of game breakage if the GS was doing something weird?
09:28<@Alberth>probably nobody has really thought about consequences of such actions at all
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09:34<@planetmaker>better safe than sorry ;-)
09:34<@planetmaker>game scripts are married to a map as much as newgrfs are
09:45<FLHerne>planetmaker: But you can add/remove NewGRFs anyway :P
09:47<@planetmaker>Yep. And GameScripts set the rules properly from the start ;-)
09:50<FLHerne>Ah well, crashed anyway. Now I can start again with better settings :-)
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11:18<@planetmaker>o/ LordAro
11:21<@peter1138>(13:59:52) peter1138: Hurr, executing an UPDATE in SQL. So far it's taken 2 hours 24 minutes...
11:21<@peter1138>Final execution time: 4 hours 18 minutes...
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11:25<Eddi|zuHause>at least SQL commands are guaranteed to terminate :)
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11:47<Rubidium>peter1138: only 4 hours... did a 'EXEC sp_msmakegeneration' a few days ago which took a bit more than 18 hours
11:49<Rubidium>and that code didn't look really optimised; felt like it has at least O(n**2) behaviour, since the longer it was running the slower it became
11:50<Rubidium>but that might be because I removed 8 million records at once; if I would have done them 100k at a time with runs to msmakegeneration it would be done way within 15 minutes
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11:55<andythenorth>might have to redraw all the graphics to 2x zoom level
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11:56<andythenorth>that will keep me busy
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11:56<@planetmaker>make models, andythenorth ;-)
11:58<@planetmaker>and script the rest so that you can hit "make render && make grf" :-P
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12:09<@planetmaker>@kban IrcCrasherDeveloper
12:09<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: Error: IrcCrasherDeveloper is not in #openttd.
12:10<@planetmaker>@ban IrcCrasherDeveloper
12:10<@planetmaker>silly advertizement
12:11-!-mode/#openttd [+v peter1138] by ChanServ
12:11-!-mode/#openttd [+v Alberth] by ChanServ
12:12<andythenorth>I can build tunnels on coast
12:12<andythenorth>didn't know that
12:13<@planetmaker>always or if you bulldoze first?
12:13<andythenorth>always I think
12:13<andythenorth>nice with the canal on water trick
12:14<Eddi|zuHause>i used that in my YACD game to fit the transrapid in
12:15*andythenorth likes the tactic
12:20*Sacro licks the tictac
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12:53<@peter1138>Rubidium: the 'interesting' part is there was neither CPU, RAM or IO load during any of it.
12:53<@peter1138>So I really wonder what it was doing all that time.
12:53<@peter1138>CPU constantly at 1-2%
12:53<@peter1138>RAM constantly at 2GB used
12:54<@peter1138>Hmm, maybe there was disk IO, but I'd expect that to consume CPU cycles if it's busy.
12:54<Rubidium>peter1138: if it's mssql you could look at the activity monitor
12:54<Rubidium>and it might just have been waiting on some table lock
12:57<Rubidium>in my experience it's usually disk io that kills SQL performance
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13:00<Rubidium>possibly the SQL is configured to use max 2GB. If it reached that, it's unlikely to return that, unless the system is under memory pressure
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13:20*andythenorth made a dumb mistake
13:20<andythenorth>cargo subtype != subtype string
13:20<andythenorth>so "foo (Tanker)" and "bar (Cargo vessel)" are both refit cycle 0 :P
13:20<andythenorth>this fucks with my plan tbh :P
13:21<FLHerne>andythenorth: Get another plan :P
13:21*FLHerne gets tied up in incomprehensibly recursive macros :-(
13:21<andythenorth>avoid macros at all costs
13:22<andythenorth>every time you use a macro a kitten dies
13:22<andythenorth>every time you recurse a macro, an entire species of kitten dies
13:22<andythenorth>macros are a necessary evil, best avoided
13:23<andythenorth>string replacement, based on proper methods of proper first class objects
13:23<andythenorth>ftw ^
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13:24<andythenorth>maybe he peter1138 likes macros :(
13:25<FLHerne>andythenorth: It autogenerates NML fine, but every time I edit it it autogenerates gibberish instead :P
13:25<andythenorth>what language?
13:26<FLHerne>m4, as I said yesterday. Still trying to wrap my mind round the way it recurses :P
13:27<andythenorth>I don't know m4, but if someone else looks, you'll see the problem
13:28<FLHerne>Nah, I'll figure it out eventually :P
13:28<FLHerne>Whenever I try to learn something, I manage to create total gibberish for a while :-)
13:31<andythenorth>I have trolled myself into converting HEQS to trains :P
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13:33<FLHerne>andythenorth: Aaargh!
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13:33*FLHerne still thinks that's a bad idea :-(
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: translators * r24415 /trunk/src/lang/ (croatian.txt german.txt italian.txt vietnamese.txt):
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: croatian - 6 changes by VoyagerOne
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: german - 6 changes by planetmaker
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: italian - 6 changes by lorenzodv
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: vietnamese - 3 changes by nglekhoi
13:53<@planetmaker>FLHerne: m4 and nml: did you look at opengfx+train's (experimental) m4nml branch?
13:54<@planetmaker>xotic did some work there in that respect
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13:56<FLHerne>planetmaker: No. I'm not trying to do anything that complex, though
13:57<frosch123>anyone here running a ottd nightly windows 64bit?
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13:58<andythenorth>when does 'extra buy menu text' become 'annoying spam' ?
13:58<frosch123>when it contains an ascii art image of the vehicle
13:58<@planetmaker>3rd line and more ;-)
13:58<andythenorth>so far I have: ship type; refittable capacity information; propulsion information
13:58<@planetmaker>tl;dr :-P
13:59<andythenorth>I could also add: loading speed (probly not); cargo aging factor; autorefit info
13:59<andythenorth>yeah that
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13:59<andythenorth>when is the new buy menu shipping?
13:59<andythenorth>with the extended area for sprite
13:59<@planetmaker>autorefit hint might be nice
14:00<@planetmaker>loading speed... well...
14:00<andythenorth>loading speed is 'meh' I think
14:00<@planetmaker>refittable to gear ratio?
14:01<andythenorth>not for ships :P
14:01<andythenorth>ship gear = cranes
14:01<andythenorth>ships are ungeared, part-geared, or full-geared
14:02<andythenorth>full-geared ship can reach 100% of it's load space with cranes
14:02<andythenorth>more gear = less cargo capacity
14:02*andythenorth ponders a cargo subtype for gear amount
14:02<andythenorth>affects loading speed
14:03<andythenorth>can anyone spell 'overkill' ? :P
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14:05*andythenorth thinks up other ideas
14:05<andythenorth>with a newgrf generator, it's so easy :P
14:05<andythenorth>ships can steam slow (efficient, cheap), or fast (deliver cargo quicker)
14:06<andythenorth>ships can be ice capable, or not
14:06<andythenorth>ships can have lots of crew (expensive), or legal minimums (more breakdowns)
14:07<andythenorth>ship safe max load can vary between salt water and fresh water
14:07<andythenorth>ships can have refrigeration equipment or not
14:09<andythenorth>newgrfs can have combinatorial explosion of refit menu
14:09<andythenorth>or not
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14:23<FLHerne>andythenorth: We don't have ice yet :P
14:23<andythenorth>we will
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14:28<andythenorth>ice is just a matter of hacking rail types a bit
14:28<andythenorth>make all water non-navigable
14:29<andythenorth>then add rail types for ship route / ship route through ice
14:29<FLHerne>... :o
14:29<andythenorth>and recode all ships as trains
14:29*andythenorth is deadly serious
14:29<andythenorth>unifying transport types is probably the best thing we could do right now
14:29<andythenorth>unifying / deleting non-train types
14:29<FLHerne>While you're at it, why not code helicopters as trains... :P
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14:30<andythenorth>it's fine, just do air lanes as tracks
14:30<andythenorth>we'd need to implement them as current tile height +1
14:30<andythenorth>and it would maybe need new map
14:31<andythenorth>but then we could enforce plane separation etc
14:31<andythenorth>ships-as-trains would no longer drive through each other, nor have infinite capacity
14:31<andythenorth>we could stop discussing multi-stop docks
14:31<andythenorth>and flat docks
14:31<andythenorth>and new ports
14:31<andythenorth>and newgrf airports
14:31<andythenorth>and roadtypes
14:32<@Alberth>and openttd
14:32<andythenorth>Alberth: it would be the ultimate comeback to "it's just a train game" :)
14:33<@Alberth>yes, no need to discuss new features, it's done
14:33<andythenorth>this + the plan frosch123 suggested to make all object-y things 'cargo'
14:33<andythenorth>we will need some trunk patches
14:33<andythenorth>but mostly this can then be delegated to existing newgrf spec
14:34<frosch123>i hope you are not quoting me out of context :)
14:34<@Alberth>moving industries, finally!!
14:34<andythenorth>maybe that was a fake-frosch :)
14:39<NataS>hmm, if industries were produced in other industries, and had to be shipped to there construction site
14:39<NataS>that would be cool
14:40<NataS>i mean some sets have construction materials
14:40<NataS>but it just goes to towns
14:40<NataS>a high value one time shipment that turns into a normal route after would be cool
14:46<andythenorth>for autorefit (nml) is cb sufficient? or do I need flag as well?
14:50<@Alberth>NataS: try Settlers or Widelands ?
14:51<TrueBrain>I am happy to annouance that the Compile Farm is back on its feet, and is compiling a new nightly as we speak; should be done in 20-ish minutes :)
14:51<LordAro>yay :)
14:51<LordAro>what was the problem?
14:52<TrueBrain>Java being java; it used 100% CPU no matter what; a cold restart solved the problem magically ... but in the meantime I did update all the software related to it, so meh :)
14:53<TrueBrain>and Bamboo 4.1 is a lot better; lot of kewl new features :)
14:53<LordAro>yay, new features :)
14:53<LordAro>glad there was no huge problem
14:53<TrueBrain>it also is a lot faster :)
14:54<frosch123>ah, the farm reset the fail statistics
14:54<frosch123>now it looks better again :)
14:54<NataS>dosn't java have a wll publicized memory leak?
14:55-!-roadt [~roadt@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:55<TrueBrain>Java is a language; it is like saying C has a memory leak
14:55<TrueBrain>it makes no sense (at all)
15:00<LordAro>owned :P
15:00*NataS shrugs
15:00<Xaroth>+1 TrueBrain
15:01*telanus smiles, posted his fist post on the forum :D
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15:04*andythenorth is falling asleep into his keyboard
15:04<andythenorth>two nights of sick baby
15:05<TrueBrain>that is rather painful
15:05<TrueBrain>but that sucks ... babies should never be sick
15:05<andythenorth>ideally not :P
15:05<TrueBrain>(s)he better now?
15:05<andythenorth>not yet
15:05<andythenorth>same again tonight
15:05<andythenorth>not very sick, just awake and loud
15:06<andythenorth>and sicky
15:06*andythenorth thinks time to go ;)
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15:06<CIA-4>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24416 /trunk/src/stdafx.h: -Fix [FS#5231]: [Win32] Unbreak NewGRF MD5 sum calculation. Macros and side effects don't mix, especially if there's some obscure '#define min' in a windows header that nobody thinks of.
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15:12<TrueBrain>Nightly r24415 is now published! Party like it is 1999!
15:12*Rubidium snores ;)
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15:15<DDR>Oops. :P
15:16*Xaroth throws a bucket of water over Rubidium to wake him up
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15:16<Sleepie>good evening
15:18<Rubidium>Xaroth: pff... you can't throw that far!
15:18<Xaroth>same country, unless you're still online while on vacation, so not -that- far
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15:21<CIA-4>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24417 /trunk/src/ (fileio_func.h ini.cpp os/windows/win32.cpp): -Codechange: [Win32] Don't needlessly include windows.h in a commonly used header.
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15:53<@Alberth>hi hi
15:54<@planetmaker>hi hi hi
15:54<FLHerne>hi hi hi hi?
15:56<Wolf01>hi hi hi hi hi!
15:58<Sleepie>thats cheating
15:58<Supercheese>for (int i=0, i<100, i++)
15:59<Supercheese>print "Hi";
15:59<Supercheese>or something
15:59<Supercheese>lazy-code :P
16:00<Xaroth>print "hi " * 10000000
16:01<TrueBrain>@kick Xaroth it is no longer funny
16:01-!-Xaroth was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [it is no longer funny]
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16:01-!-Xaroth is "Xaroth" on #openttd @+#openDune
16:01<Xaroth>pff @ tb
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17:01<@Terkhen>good night
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17:23<Wolf01>'night all
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17:57<Supercheese>I presume if I provide 32bpp sprites with the alternative_sprites block in NML, the resultant GRF automatically tells OTTD it prefers a 32bpp blitter, yes?
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18:02<FLHerne>When did that button to allow smaller toolbars come in?
18:02*FLHerne just noticed it
18:02<@planetmaker>the looping arrow? longer than 4 years ago
18:03<@planetmaker>Supercheese: that assumption iirc is coorect
18:03<FLHerne>planetmaker: :o
18:03<FLHerne>Sure it wasn't there last time I looked...
18:03<@planetmaker>old toad ;-)
18:04<@planetmaker>feel free to try old openttd versions. I'm quite sure it was already in 0.5
18:04<FLHerne>Well, I wasn't playing four years ago, so it must have been there... :P
18:10<@planetmaker>hm, I just checked. September 2007 it was not present ;-)
18:11<@planetmaker>In 2009 it was present
18:14<Sleepie>Which button you're talking about?
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18:15<M1zera>"shade window" button
18:15<@planetmaker>He. 2008 it was also not present. So it was introduced in 0.7
18:15<@planetmaker>nope. The toolbar toggle button
18:15<@planetmaker>which is only visible, if you make the window smaller than ~300px or so
18:15<Sleepie>ah those ones
18:16*FLHerne wonders how he missed that
18:16<@planetmaker>big screens? :-)
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18:16<FLHerne>I have some things with small screens, too :P Possibly not small enough though
18:17<Supercheese>Oh, I've never made my window that small before
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18:19<Sleepie>me too
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18:21<Sleepie>a hidden feature? or is this documented in the wiki
18:21*Sleepie goes reading the wiki
18:24<@planetmaker>I've seen it in the wiki
18:25<Sleepie>i only found it in the changelog for 0.7 but not in the game interface docu
18:25<Sleepie>I may have overlooked it though
18:27<@planetmaker>I don't see it where I exepected it
18:31<@planetmaker>[default | public] (9425) (svn r13339) -Feature: splitting of the main toolbar when the resolution becomes very low so the buttons are still visible and useable. Patch by Dominik.
18:32<Sleepie>Yes thats what I mean it is missing on ^that wikipage...
18:32<@planetmaker>Add it :-)
18:32<Sleepie>I will not a big deal
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18:33<Sleepie>Do you have some tech infos like screensize to get this visible
18:34<+glx>less than 640px wide IIRC
18:34<Sleepie>Otherwise I'll just make approximations by selftesting
18:34<Sleepie>From what I see here it seems even less
18:34<@planetmaker>glx: no, smaller
18:35<@planetmaker>the toolbar itself is not 640px
18:35<+glx>I though it was
18:35<@planetmaker>let's test :-)
18:36<Sleepie>I have 426 currently
18:36<@planetmaker>you might be right, glx
18:37<@planetmaker>but the button appears at 480 or so
18:38<Sleepie>I think this value should be ok for the wiki
18:38<Sleepie>I'll make a screenshot anyway
18:39<@planetmaker>460 seems to be the limit here
18:39<M1zera>I have one problem when I'm playing openttd...
18:40<M1zera>my dream is to transfer everything on the map everywhere...
18:40<M1zera>but I always get to point when I stop building new tracks and start watching trains...
18:40<@planetmaker>sounds familiar
18:41<Sleepie>planetmaker: maybe it depends also on fullsceen or windowed mode and OS and Aero or Classic (Win) or ... ;)
18:41<@planetmaker>Sleepie: I'm moderately sure it doesn't
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18:43<Sleepie>planetmaker: fair enough I was quickly resizing the window
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18:44<Sleepie>and in the end who cares about 20 pixels
18:44*Sleepie sometimes also just watches his trains...
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18:46<Sleepie>planetmaker: I'll add to the wiki tomorrow and give you pointer for review
18:48<@planetmaker>"if we can't fit half the buttons and the panels anymore, split the toolbar in two */"
18:50<Sleepie>toolbar_gui.cpp (1436) ;)
18:50<@planetmaker>from ...^
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18:56<Sleepie>so it depends if you are playing or creating maps
18:57<Sleepie>for scenario editor it is about 300px to get the toggle button up
18:59<@planetmaker>yes. Toolbars are different
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19:05<Sleepie>And no statusbar in scenario editor
19:08*Sleepie have a break for a smoke
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19:54<Sleepie>planetmaker: <- Detail page will follow later, I'm too tired now ;)
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---Logclosed Fri Jul 20 00:00:23 2012