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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-07-21

---Logopened Sat Jul 21 00:00:26 2012
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02:26<Wolf01>uhm, I'm trying to open the in-line volume control of my stereo headpohones because it has a false contact, I can't find a weak spot, I think I'll resort to violence
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02:39<Wolf01>opened! the good new is that the cables are ok, the bad new is that the problem seem to be the trimmer :(
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02:43<Wolf01>hello Alberth
02:45<@Alberth>hi Wolf01
02:45<@Alberth>it's quiet, no new posts in the openttd forums even
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02:57<Rubidium>Alberth: then continue with zbase and let your computer make some noise
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03:07<@Alberth>that would be mostly the fan, as building zbasebuild takes ages :)
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03:10<@Alberth>o/ LordAro
03:10<LordAro>hai Alberth
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04:19<@Terkhen>good morning
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05:59<frosch123>hmm, what debian package might contain /usr/include/mysql/mysql.h
05:59<frosch123>libmysqlclient-dev maybe
06:00<frosch123>hmm, oh, i already have that file
06:00<frosch123>no, i do not... wrong window
06:03<frosch123>yay, success
06:03<@Alberth>just switch windows until you find it :)
06:07<frosch123>does svn 1.7 support externals for single files meanwhile?
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06:18<Rubidium>though it doesn't seem to exist for sid; it does exist for wheezy and experimental
06:23<Sleepie>frosch123: <- from there it says yes, but only in th same repo, no inter-repo support, see last paragraph
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06:26<frosch123>symbolic links are already supported by svn 1.4
06:26<frosch123>but that's not an external
06:30<Sleepie>yes more a kind of internal
06:32<@Alberth>If 1.6 didn't have it, I wouldn't expect it in 1.7, they have problems enough removing all .svn directores in all sub-root directories
06:33<Sleepie>which is fortunately the case since 1.7
06:39<frosch123>ottd 0.7 looks awkward
06:41<@Alberth>try 0.6, it has a funny AI
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07:06<@Alberth>FLHerne: your harbour picture in the CHIPS thread seems to suggest to me you want concrete under your rail tracks
07:14<FLHerne>Alberth: Between the rails in CHIPS? Or is that a comment on NuTracks ballast? Or both? :P
07:15<@Alberth>under the diagonal tracks + crossings north of the ship depot
07:16<FLHerne>Not really - that's a 3rd-rail electrified mainline :P
07:16<Sleepie>maybe even only under the diagonals
07:16<FLHerne>Would be useless as a loading pad :P
07:16<Sleepie>just eyecandy
07:17<FLHerne>I'd like half-tile triangles to fit between the station and mainline though :-)
07:17<@Alberth>you see often rail tracks fully embedded in the pavement in industrial areas
07:17<FLHerne>Alberth: Yes, but not 90mph mainlines :P
07:17<FLHerne>That would be dangerous :-(
07:18<@Alberth>the concrete may jump up :p
07:18<FLHerne>People would step on the 3rd-rail, too...
07:18<@Alberth>yeah, not a good idea
07:20*FLHerne considers triangle-overlapping tiles
07:20<@Alberth>I never make eye-candy, so don't ask me :)
07:20<Sleepie>would look more pleasing imho
07:21<FLHerne>Ok. Should be easy to draw. Was short of object ideas anyway :P
07:21*FLHerne goes out to walk the rat
07:21<FLHerne>See you later :-)
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07:45<LordAro>wait, what?
07:53*Alberth waits
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08:03<FLHerne>Back :-)
08:06<FLHerne>It's finally stopped raining :D
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08:11<@Alberth>wb :)
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08:11<@Alberth>FLHerne: what I think it needs are stacks of things and stuff. The docks are way too clean
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08:12<FLHerne>Alberth: That's only because the train just left :P
08:13<@Alberth>it did not even leave empty pallets?
08:15<FLHerne>Tell andythenorth to make it do that, then...?
08:15<@Alberth>I remembered someone had run out of objects to draw :p
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08:16<FLHerne>But objects can't measure cargo waiting at all, that's a station kind of thing
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08:17<@Alberth>some stacks are part of the docks :p
08:17<FLHerne>That's a dock thing, then :P
08:17<@Alberth>oh, fishing nets can be added too
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08:22<Sleepie>and I would also overbuild the left shores in the habour
08:24<FLHerne>Still a dock thing. I'm just using/modifying/drawing variations of various sprites from CHIPS & FIRS and recoding them as objects
08:24<FLHerne>Sleepie Exactly for that reason :P
08:24<FLHerne>CHIPS can't do that, that's why I need to finish doing the objects :P
08:25<@Alberth>'various sprites' don't have cargo lying around?
08:26<FLHerne>Alberth: They do. andythenorth has them for 'amount of cargo waiting' in CHIPS
08:27<FLHerne>That picture demonstrates the need for NewObjects, not their use :P
08:28<Sleepie>yep the only downside is that the list of newgrfs loaded gets longer and longer until you reach the current limit
08:28<Sleepie>which afaik cannot be lifted, because it would break multiplayer
08:29<FLHerne>Chill's PP has a much higher limit, and doesn't break multiplayer :P
08:30<Sleepie>I don't know never played CPP
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08:31<frosch123>FLHerne: ofc it does
08:31<FLHerne>frosch123: How so?
08:32<frosch123>it will only transmit the first part of the grfs and drop the other ones
08:32<frosch123>so, once you use too many grfs, multiplayer will fail
08:32<Sleepie>because it only uses one packet for it iirc
08:32<frosch123>more specifically a udp packet
08:33<FLHerne>In that case, add separate limits for single-player games and servers? :P
08:33<frosch123>though maybe it only breaks the server list
08:33<Sleepie>so question is can this be changed "easyly"
08:33<Sleepie>or what FLHerne said
08:33<@Alberth>FLHerne: you don't want to have different game files for SP and MP, I think
08:34<Sleepie>fair enough Alberth
08:34<frosch123>Sleepie: experience tells that everyone who reaches the newgrf limit does not know what he is doing with them
08:34<frosch123>it's like the mapsize limit
08:34<frosch123>there are some people requesting 16kx16k maps
08:34<frosch123>while 2kx2k is already utterly useless
08:35<FLHerne>Alberth: Keep the files identical, but forbid loading ones with >x NewGrfs on a server
08:35<@Alberth>FLHerne: how? a savegame contains references to all loaded newgrfs
08:35<FLHerne>frosch123: I hit the limit, and I know what I'm doing with them :P
08:35<Sleepie>frosch123: personally I think that was true in the past, but now there are a lot of little grfs popping up
08:36<@Alberth>FLHerne: as said, I don't think you want some magically unloadable files just because you use them in a different context
08:36<Sleepie>and even if they are just eyecandy you can reach the limit quite fast without loading everything available
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08:37<FLHerne>Alberth: Add a parameter for 'max SP NewGRFs', at MP limit by default?
08:38<frosch123>anyway, noone stepped up to even fix fs#5158
08:38<FLHerne>Then it wouldn't confuse people, especially with these fancy description strings :P
08:38<FLHerne>@fs 5158
08:38<@Alberth>FLHerne: x.sav by itself does not show whether it is loadable in MP
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08:39<FLHerne>Alberth: It doesn't show that it needs obsure_unavailable_thingum_v283.grf either :P
08:39<@Alberth>But the problem is better solved by a fundamental fix than this hacking into different types of save games
08:40<@Alberth>FLHerne: yeah, it's bad, I'd like to fix that too, let's throw away newgrfs
08:40<@Alberth>which by the way solves your loading problem nicely too
08:40<frosch123>just restrict loading of newgrfs to a single one
08:41<@Alberth>the baseset :D
08:41<frosch123>one baseset, one newgrf, one gs, one ai
08:41<FLHerne>Alberth: Removes the developers' excuse of 'that can be done in a convoluted way by NewGRFs' though :P
08:41<Sleepie>then the baseset must be extended massively :P
08:42<Sleepie>for it would help if many of the little grfs could be combined just to a few ones
08:43<@Alberth>it probably gets terribly complicated, much more than fixing the limit would be my guess
08:44<Sleepie>yeah probably, also all people involved must be willing to work together on a bigger thing and so on
08:45<Sleepie>Alberth: what do you think how complicated the change in the network code would be?
08:45<@Alberth>I don't know at all
08:46<@Alberth>You'd have to allow for receiving several UDP packets, with just some of the newgrfs. You can have some missing, and receive some double
08:47<@Alberth>you need a mechanism to know how many to expect, and a check whether you got all
08:48<Sleepie>ok so there should be already things that work that way
08:48<@Alberth>I don't even know why it uses UDP instead of TCP
08:49<Sleepie>maybe I should look myself at the network code
08:49<@Alberth>which would seem easier to me at first sight
08:49<Sleepie>maybe because it works better with weaker connections
08:50<@Alberth>how would that be?
08:50<frosch123>Alberth: it's about queryiing all servers without authentication
08:50<@Alberth>ah, ok, that explains using UDP :)
08:51<@Alberth>Sleepie: so a bunch of UDP packets gives nice options for a DOS attack
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08:58<Rubidium>actually, I think a ChillPP MP server with too many NewGRFs will hit an assert, or if it doesn't, never advertise properly
08:59<Rubidium>Alberth: the limit is fixed ;)
09:00<Rubidium>and with the nature of UDP, receiving multiple packets from another party without packet loss is significantly less likely
09:00<@Alberth>I was not going to unfix it ;)
09:00*FLHerne wanders off
09:01<FLHerne>Stuff to do :P
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09:01<Rubidium>and it uses UDP because a certain operating system has/had a limit of connections that could be made with a single binary (in the non-server version)
09:02<Rubidium>which meant that a server wouldn't be visible anymore after a few hours
09:02<Rubidium>but there is a relatively easy way to solve the whole issue. Just increase the MTU of the internet
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09:07<frosch123>Rubidium: submit a patch to the internet authority
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09:42<Sleepie>tea time see you later
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10:04<Wolf01>me too
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10:22<andythenorth>can we script map gen?
10:26<@Alberth>would that give anything more sane results?
10:27<andythenorth>tie it to GS
10:27<andythenorth>as a dep
10:27<andythenorth>'generate 2 large cities for this GS'
10:43<Eddi|zuHause>no, but you should be able to found towns afterwards if there are not enough
10:44<andythenorth>can I remove towns as well? :P
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10:59<MNIM>sadly, not without the scenario editor
11:06<andythenorth>quiet here
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11:10<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: your better bet is to just make a scenario for such a special case
11:10<andythenorth>I made a scenario once
11:10<andythenorth>never again
11:11<andythenorth>the most boring thing....ever
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11:11<@Alberth>at least it is done faster than coding a baseset :p
11:13<andythenorth>coding is interesting
11:13<andythenorth>I might have a few hours of coding time this weekened
11:13*andythenorth considers: nml FISH, or start a GS project?
11:13<@Alberth>you know a base set is just real srpites, right? :)
11:14<andythenorth>I have edited opengfx yes ;)
11:14<andythenorth>GS, I need a buddy
11:14<andythenorth>FISH less so :P
11:14<andythenorth>I have 3 or 4 GS ideas
11:15<@Alberth>that's too much for a few hours coding
11:16<andythenorth>I was only proposing to do one of them :P
11:16<@Alberth>btw, I just read a page at the Django site, looks interesting to try one time
11:17<@planetmaker>bananasssssss. my preciousssss
11:24<andythenorth>I have GS ideas like:
11:25<andythenorth>- metro: build a city network capable of transporting x passengers per year
11:25<andythenorth>- transcontinental: build west from a large east coast city to the other coast (large empty-ish map needed)
11:27<andythenorth>- air mogul: become the biggest airline on the map by 1950 (starts before planes are are available, so have to begin with trains etc)
11:28<@Alberth>hmm, we could have lots of small islands that you have to bridge. Then you cannot have bridges over tracks.
11:29<@Alberth>how is "transcontinental" interesting, just a drag/drop to the other side is enough, isn't it?
11:29<andythenorth>very tight time limit
11:30<@Alberth>build while paused :p
11:30<andythenorth>start with only one large city in the east, few industries
11:30<andythenorth>could limit amount of rail allowed to be built
11:30<@Alberth>could be interesting if there is a large gap in between where you cannot put much tracks
11:30<andythenorth>there are quite a few transcontinental scenarios in railroad tycoon, they're fun
11:31<andythenorth>I am most interested in scenarios that take 1-3 hours to play
11:31*andythenorth ponders some more
11:34<@Alberth>afk for dinner
11:34*andythenorth should learn what GS can do, instead of guessing :P
11:35*andythenorth thinks 'less' might be the way to go
11:35<andythenorth>the vehicle sets and industry sets have become huge
11:35<andythenorth>but bigger != more fun
11:36<andythenorth>none of the big newgrf games I've played have been as much fun as the first games I played with vanilla openttd
11:36<andythenorth>but...bigger = more scope for a GS that only uses parts of stuff
11:49<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r24427 /trunk/config.lib: -Change: allow passing C(XX)- and LDFLAGS to the compilation of helper binaries such as depend, strgen and settingsgen
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12:50*andythenorth tries to find docs for nml BITMASK()
12:50<andythenorth>maybe I read the source
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12:52<@Alberth>but it's not that clear :)
12:52<andythenorth>trying to figure out bitmask(CC_LIQUID)
12:52<@Alberth>bitmask(0, 4, 5) == 0011 0001
12:53<andythenorth>so bitmask(CC_LIQUID) sets the liquid bit
12:53<@Alberth>ie 1 << CC_LIQUID this
12:53<andythenorth>in some limited cases, nfo is much easier :P
12:53<andythenorth>no abstraction to deal with
12:54<andythenorth>putting convenience around the bitmask makes it harder to remember / deduce what the bitmask is doing
12:54<@Alberth>but you have to encode to 0x31 :)
12:54<@Alberth>iirc nml also has <<, so use that instead
12:54<andythenorth>so if I wanted to check a cargo had classe liquid, and only liquid?
12:54<andythenorth>all other bits must be clear
12:55<@Alberth>value == bitmask(CC_LIQUID)
12:55<@Alberth>assuming 'value' is only cargo classes
12:56<andythenorth>actually nvm
12:56<andythenorth>theoretical question atm
12:56<@Alberth>ie you want exactly the value with that one bit
12:58<andythenorth>that explains why some cargos are refitting to tanker
13:00<andythenorth>so in nfo I would 'just' mask the other bits out and check for liquid bit
13:00<andythenorth>I need to do the same in nml
13:00<andythenorth>the issue is vehicles that should be tanker if liquid class is present
13:00<andythenorth>not iff liquid is the only class
13:02<andythenorth>typo above * some cargos _aren't_ refitting to tanker :P
13:02<@Alberth>then you want (vaue and bitmask(CC_LIQUID)) != 0 , ie throw away all bits not in the bitmask, and then you should still have some bits left
13:03<andythenorth>perhaps I need multiple switches in that case
13:03<@Alberth>and since you started with 1 bit, 'some bits left' is also 1 bit :)
13:04<+michi_cc>And 'value & bitmask(a,b) == bitmask(a,b)' just in case you want to test if two bits are set at the same time.
13:06<@Alberth>the 'and' operation forces all other bits to 0 (ie all bits that you mask away), so you can predict what to compare against
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13:34<andythenorth>so masking in nfo is easy
13:34<andythenorth>but I am baffled by how to do this in nml
13:34<andythenorth>presumably in the switch somewhere
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13:42<+michi_cc>andythenorth: By literally writing a &
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13:42<andythenorth>cargo_classes_in_consist & some_value ?
13:43<+michi_cc>Yes. And that some value is your bitmask.
13:43*andythenorth tests
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: translators * r24428 /trunk/src/lang/ (brazilian_portuguese.txt korean.txt):
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: korean - 26 changes by telk5093
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 6 changes by Tucalipe
13:46*andythenorth seeks the & operator in nml
13:46<@planetmaker>look for "&"
13:47<@planetmaker>value = variable & 0x00F0
13:47<andythenorth>how do I create an expression?
13:47<andythenorth>docs tell me only the operators
13:47<andythenorth>I have to wrap it in parentheses?
13:48<@Alberth>the normal operator expression priorities apply
13:48<@Alberth>ie 1 + 2 * 3 == 1 + (2 * 3)
13:48<andythenorth>using && gets me an nml error
13:48<andythenorth>it expands it to an html entity
13:48<@planetmaker>&& applies to boolean only
13:49<@planetmaker>that's your pre-processor which fails there then
13:49<@Alberth>hi planetmaker :)
13:50<@planetmaker>salut Alberth
13:51<@Alberth>as far as I can see, there seem to be mostly terrain and track sprites left, and stations
13:53*andythenorth wonders wtf the templater is escaping non-templated things
13:58<andythenorth>this is a showstopper :P
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14:16<andythenorth>ho ho
14:16<andythenorth>ugly, but...meh :P
14:17<andythenorth>grf_nml.write('&&'.join(master_template(vehicles=vehicles, repo_vars=repo_vars).split('$AND')))
14:19<andythenorth>so what range is needed to check for 'true' with 'cargo_classes_in_consist && bitmask(CC_LIQUID)'
14:20<andythenorth>I have tried 0, 1 and 255 as values
14:21<Rubidium>doesn't that yield true whenever cargo_classes_in_consist is not 0?
14:21<Rubidium>&& != &
14:22<andythenorth>yes, it does yield true
14:22*andythenorth adjusts
14:25<andythenorth>ok that works :)
14:26<TrueBrain>I hate weekends; they are so boring
14:28<andythenorth>por quoi?
14:28<TrueBrain>I am sorry, I speak no german
14:28<@Alberth>andy does not speak french, so that's a happy co-incidence :)
14:29<Eddi|zuHause>we should all speak esperanto like we're supposed to
14:30<andythenorth>someone here probably does
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>we used to have an esperanto translator
14:30<andythenorth>is it madness that I have to use $AMPERSAND in my nml templates to get an & char?
14:31<andythenorth>should I rip out the entire templating engine and start again?
14:31-!-Arafangion [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:31<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you're probably just missing an escape character
14:32<andythenorth>I tried all the ones listed
14:32<andythenorth>I thought the same though
14:34<andythenorth>this is ugly:
14:34<andythenorth>I can't use string colours
14:35<Eddi|zuHause>why not?
14:35<andythenorth>vehicle info window
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>that doesn't look bad
14:37<FLHerne>That second one looks much better :-)
14:37<andythenorth>I could use cyan
14:37<andythenorth>which would hide the vehicle info window problem
14:37<andythenorth>can i have a guarantee that vehicle info window text colour won't change?
14:38-!-Chris_Booth [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:38<FLHerne>Why is that a problem?
14:38<@Alberth>andythenorth: a tree-like list?
14:39<FLHerne>Makes the 'in cabins' bit easier to ignore - which is fine since it's not relevant anyway :P
14:39<andythenorth>it's wrong and ugly
14:39<@planetmaker>why do you need that guarantee?
14:40<andythenorth>don't want to change the vehicle info window appearance unexpectedly
14:40*andythenorth may be being too pedantic
14:41<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i don't see your problem...
14:41*Alberth will ask permission for any vehicle window change
14:41<andythenorth>the wrong colour sticks out like a sore thumb to me
14:41<andythenorth>but seems I notice these things more than average
14:41<@Alberth>that's what we hired you for :)
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i think grey works well
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>the hyphen needs a better idea though
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>or at least another space :)
14:44<FLHerne>andythenorth: It's not 'the wrong colour', it's 'a useful idea to make unneeded information less obtrusive' :P
14:49<andythenorth>it's more intrusive
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14:50<andythenorth>making it a unique colour brings it forward as you try and parse the gestalt
14:50*andythenorth use jargon :P
14:50<andythenorth>unique colour = higher significance in cognition
14:50<FLHerne>andythenorth: It isn't, it blends into the grey background nicely. Less contrast
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14:51<FLHerne>The break in colour makes it easier to parse, because it marks the end of the bit I care about
14:51<masch>is there a description of the algorithm thats used for map generation?
14:52<FLHerne>Otherwise the information I needed would be in the middle of the string
14:52<Rubidium>masch: what part of map generation?
14:52<masch>Rubidium: heightmap
14:52<Rubidium>masch: there might be in tgp.cpp (source code); it has to do with Perlin noise
14:53<masch>Rubidium: thanks, default libnoise perlin generates uncool maps that are impossible to display with minecraft
14:53<masch>WTF why did i say minecraft? my head..
14:54<Eddi|zuHause>that's the geek version of a freudian slip :p
14:54<TrueBrain>Minecraft also uses perlin noise
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>perlin noise is very boring for maps
14:55<TrueBrain>I think OpenTTD does an epic job, does it not? :)
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>we need a tectonics map generator
14:56<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: plate tectonics?
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: it has been improved by the overlay functions that form flat and hilly areas
14:56<Rubidium>too bad TrueBrain didn't finish his map generator that uses very realistic tectonics ;)
14:56<TrueBrain>Rubidium: hehe :D
14:56<FLHerne>TrueBrain: Not that epic :P
14:56<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: 3D perlin noise, yes :)
14:56<andythenorth>if you want a decent map, first turn off 'variety distribution'
14:56<masch>wow there is nice short introduction how perlin noise works. great
14:56<andythenorth>if you want a decent map, load a heightmap :P
14:57<FLHerne>It needs better links with river generation :P
14:57<TrueBrain>Rubidium: it is too bad there is no meta information which is correct, in regards of rivers and lakes :(
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: the "original" perlin noise makes very "uniform" hill-valley maps. really boring as you can never build a straight track on them
14:57<FLHerne>At the moment, rivers make no sense whatsoever
14:57*andythenorth learns to type
14:57<andythenorth>rivers make sense as eye candy
14:57<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: I guess it was a bit too noisy :P
14:57<andythenorth>or things that you bulldoze
14:58<FLHerne>They should have valleys, to make it easier to bridge them
14:58<FLHerne>It looks silly to have one-tile-long hump bridges :P
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14:58<TrueBrain>FLHerne: we will await your patch ;)
14:59<Rubidium>FLHerne: there are barely any rivers around here where you do not need to gain some elevation to cross it
14:59<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: no, they should have "flat" bridges (which makes them unpassable by ships)
14:59<TrueBrain>nice going andythenorth :P
15:00<andythenorth>I thought it was a nice idea
15:00<andythenorth>very realistic
15:00<andythenorth>then I remembered it will break gameplay :P
15:00<FLHerne>Statemachine-controlled swing bridges? :D
15:00<andythenorth>new ship prop: can pass under bridges
15:00<Rubidium>new bridge prop: can open for ships that can't pass under bridges
15:00<TrueBrain>would be weird: this ship cannot go under this bridge, but this ship can hide inside that other ship
15:00<andythenorth>new ship cb: can pass under bridges; new var: height of bridge
15:01<andythenorth>ships can load into ships? :o
15:01<TrueBrain>as in: no collision :)
15:01<@Alberth>TrueBrain: nice implementation of multiple cargo bays :p
15:02*andythenorth chooses cyan
15:02<FLHerne>Minimum bridge heights for ships might actually be a good idea?
15:02<andythenorth>so what to do about the '-' char?
15:02<FLHerne>andythenorth: No, that will be a nuisance :-(
15:02<TrueBrain>eat it
15:02*andythenorth eats it
15:03<TrueBrain>I know right
15:03<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: traditionally cargo subtypes are put in parentheses
15:03<andythenorth>there we go, done
15:03<andythenorth>I tried parentheses, thought it looked silly
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15:03<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but if you use a hyphen, it must have spaces on both sides
15:03<andythenorth>but point taken
15:03<andythenorth>it did
15:03<FLHerne>When I look at that window, I want to see the cargo and the capacity. I don't care about the 'fluff' :P
15:03<andythenorth>but the font might not have rendered it very evenly
15:04<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that looks silly
15:04<andythenorth>I'm adding parentheses back in
15:04<FLHerne>Like that, it's difficult to parse either the subtype or the cargo, because both are in the same sentence and the same colour :-(
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15:05<andythenorth>'cargo holds' or just 'holds'
15:05<andythenorth>'cargo hold' is tautology?
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>i wouldn't know what a "hold" is
15:06<andythenorth>alternative suggestions?
15:06<andythenorth>'dry cargo' ?
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>and i still like the grey better
15:06<V453000>piece goods or something similar?
15:07<andythenorth>has to be nothing that is a cargo class name
15:07<andythenorth>brb, food
15:08<V453000>then piece something :>.
15:08<Hirundo>I agree with eddi that grey looked better, it's less obtrusive
15:18<@planetmaker>I think 'cargo hold' is a good description
15:18<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: cargo hold = Frachtraum (somewhat)
15:20<__ln__>i wouldn't have known what 'hold' is either, but is that a reason not to use the most appropriate english words?
15:22<@Alberth>people may even learn a word or two English from playing openttd :)
15:22<Sleepie>I also didn't know it till now, but think its the best choose
15:24<Sleepie>Alberth: or maybe not, because the translators are too fast
15:24<__ln__>if "we" begin to choose "easier" words that are more suitable for e.g. non-native speakers, then it's Simple English by definition, isn't it.
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: yes. i know that. but i meant just "hold" (without further context) wouldn't have a meaning to me
15:25<@planetmaker>ah. Yes. I agree.
15:25<@planetmaker>I misunderstood you
15:25<@Alberth>Sleepie: play without translation, I find wording in English better than the translation
15:27<@Alberth>good night
15:27<FLHerne>andythenorth: I still preferred grey :P
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15:28<FLHerne>Also, (holds) on its own would be confusing, I think
15:29*andythenorth considers alternatives
15:29<andythenorth>like '(refitted to tanker)'
15:29<andythenorth>'(refitted to general cargo vessel)'
15:29<andythenorth>'(refitted to passenger cabins)'
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15:29<FLHerne>That would be long and cumbersome :P
15:30<FLHerne>fjb: Evening :P
15:30<andythenorth>might help player understand autorefit behaviour though
15:30<Sleepie>make a pollß
15:30*Sleepie checks his shift key
15:35<andythenorth>poll options are?
15:37<Sleepie>hmm ok maybe a poll isn't the best idea (maybe only for other colors), than maybe just ask for alternative in the forum
15:38<Sleepie>based on the screenshot above
15:38<andythenorth>forum rarely produces better suggestions than this channel ;)
15:38<andythenorth>and more noise there
15:39*andythenorth ships what he has so far
15:40<andythenorth>so...cargoes that travel by tanker:
15:40<andythenorth>- alcohol?
15:40<andythenorth>- milk?
15:40<Sleepie>wouldn't alcohol be in bottles
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15:40<andythenorth>this is my question ;)
15:41<FLHerne>Both could. Depends on size of vessel, type of alcohol
15:41<FLHerne>I can't imagine a supertanker full of milk :P
15:41<Sleepie>true but which is more common
15:41<andythenorth>small ships don't refit to tanker anyway, so moot point ;)
15:41<FLHerne>But a tanker barge is a possibility
15:42<FLHerne>Industrial alcohol might be tankered, pehaps in large quantities
15:42<FLHerne>Wine/beer probably not?
15:42<andythenorth>but not to hotels and shops...?
15:44<FLHerne>This is supposedly a wine tanker:
15:45<Sleepie>with one/several big tanks?
15:45<andythenorth>yes there are wine tankers
15:45<andythenorth>also fruit juice tankers
15:47<FLHerne>Sorry, Google Images confused. That one's orange juice. This one's wine:
15:47<Sleepie>well not much different, at least the exist ;)
15:48*andythenorth makes milk and alcohol use cargo holds, not tankers
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15:49<Sleepie>tankers would only make sense if delivered to other industry and not a town imho
15:49<FLHerne>Makes sense
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15:49<Sleepie>next one
15:51*andythenorth ponders
15:52<TrueBrain>be careful with that
15:52<andythenorth>simpler if it only refits to tanker for cargos that have only liquid class
15:52<andythenorth>less special case code
15:54<andythenorth>if anyone adds a liquid cargo with extra classes set, they won't get tankers
15:56*andythenorth considers removing subtype strings entirely
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16:00<andythenorth>that's better :)
16:02<Sleepie>future proof ;)
16:04<FLHerne>andythenorth: What about autorefitting?
16:04<FLHerne>Subtypes without description strings would be confusing
16:06<andythenorth>the subtype string is only there to help players understand autorefit rules
16:06<andythenorth>it doesn't have any other use
16:08<FLHerne>But in its absense, the players wouldn't understand the autorefit rules :P
16:08<andythenorth>case made then
16:09<andythenorth>if (indirection > 2) { ABORT ABORT ABORT }
16:11<FLHerne> 2.9 tonnes/second a stupid rate of fire for a Gatling gun?
16:11*FLHerne looks up A-10s :o
16:17*andythenorth adds more indirection after all
16:17<FLHerne>What are you indirecting?
16:17<andythenorth>nml templates
16:17<andythenorth>this makes no sense to me:
16:17<andythenorth>"0 .. 16377 as refit cost. Add CB_RESULT_AUTOREFIT if you want to allow autorefit."
16:19<andythenorth>how do I add a cb result?
16:20<fjb>That looks like a constant expression to me.
16:21<fjb>E.g.: 295 + CB_RESULT_AUTOREFIT
16:22*andythenorth tests
16:23<andythenorth>seems that setting a cost automatically allows autorefit
16:24<Sleepie>so also cost zero works?
16:24<andythenorth>seems that setting ROADVEH_FLAG_AUTOREFIT for ship misc_flags works :P
16:27<andythenorth>there's no extra_callback_info1 for refit_cost
16:28<andythenorth>how do I check the type being refitted to?
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16:28<andythenorth>is var 10 not implemented for nml?
16:33<andythenorth>is there a way to check vars directly in nml?
16:35<@planetmaker>var 10 is implemented. extra_callback_info1 (or 2)
16:35<andythenorth>did you look in src for that?
16:35*andythenorth was about to try that
16:36<andythenorth>just gets me the mapping to the cb number
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16:37<andythenorth>k thanks
16:38<@planetmaker>but not sure it'll help. There's a subtype variable iirc
16:38<andythenorth>nah, the refit_cost should have what I need
16:39<andythenorth>nfo spec is explicit about it
16:39<@planetmaker>is a variable
16:39<andythenorth>in this case I need to bitmask the classes
16:39<andythenorth>but fortunately I know now how nml does that
16:40<andythenorth>meanwhile: bridge
16:41<Sleepie>^nice one
16:44<andythenorth>how / why does autorefit work at all?
16:44<andythenorth>I don't see how it can guarantee deterministic refits for some orders if the previous orders are indeterministic
16:44<andythenorth>i.e. order 1: refit available cargo
16:44<andythenorth>order 2: refit [specific cargo]
16:44<andythenorth>where [specific cargo] may or may not be permitted by the vehicle newgrf
16:44<andythenorth>why doesn't this result in a lot of broken routes?
16:47<@planetmaker>andythenorth: available = cargo with biggest amount waiting
16:47<@planetmaker>refit to XY = refit to XY
16:47<@planetmaker>so you have both options
16:47<@planetmaker>in the orders menu
16:47<andythenorth>and if available cargo = AB for order 1...
16:48<andythenorth>but for order 2 grf does not permit AB -> XY ?
16:48<andythenorth>what does the vehicle do? Stuck?
16:48<@planetmaker>The newgrf decides which refit is feasible
16:48<andythenorth>is there error handling for the "can't refit" case?
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16:56<andythenorth>so for refit_cost, var 10 is in format ccccwwtt
16:56<andythenorth>how do I get the first word out in nml?
16:56<andythenorth>and mask it with 0s?
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16:58<masch>hey guys. can i have some comments on this: ?
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17:05<Sleepie>masch: nice, webgl?
17:07<@planetmaker>andythenorth: like usual: (var & 0xFFFF0000) >> 16
17:08<@planetmaker>will give you the high word of that dword
17:08<@planetmaker>you likely can leave out the masking even.
17:09*andythenorth tries >> 16
17:10<andythenorth>angle brackets are escaped :P
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17:24<andythenorth>what's wrong with this as a switch result?
17:24<andythenorth> return 0 + CB_RESULT_AUTOREFIT;
17:24<andythenorth>doesn't bloody work :P
17:28*andythenorth decides bed is nice
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17:29<andythenorth>oh ffs
17:30<andythenorth>"Bit 14: If set, the refit is allowed as an auto-refit as long as bit 4 of the miscellaneous flags is set as well."
17:30<andythenorth>always read the nfo spec
17:30<andythenorth>golden rule of nml coding :P
17:30*andythenorth should edit the wiki
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18:45<masch>Sleepie: canvas
18:46<@Terkhen>good night
18:47<@planetmaker>masch: I notice the funny light direction. It should come from around 4:30pm. Not from 2pm.
18:48<masch>planetmaker: O.o thats noticeable? The tiles are prerendered with blendern. Maybe i should fix that ..
18:48<@planetmaker>look at slope brightness
18:49<masch>the last row is "buggy" :-/ need to be fixed
18:49<@planetmaker>it's later than 1:30 and earlier than 3:00
18:49<@planetmaker>it should be... around 4:30
18:50<masch>okay.. thanks for that. I'll try to fix that blender file. That whole thing is for my bachlor thesis :-/
18:51<@planetmaker>there might be already light settings around for blender. Maybe in OpenGFX+Trains (though to me that seems directly 3pm) and in zBase maybe another. I need to look
18:52<@planetmaker> and
18:52<Wolf01>'night all
18:52<@planetmaker>but I like the terrain for a change. Could make nice desert or so
18:52-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
18:52<@planetmaker>what's your goal, masch?
18:53<masch>planetmaker: "openttd in browser & nodejs"
18:53<masch>its project work & bachlor thesis so i can split it in two big parts
18:53<masch>client & server
18:54<@planetmaker>o_O That's a BIG project
18:54<masch>the "real" goal is to evaluate modern web technologies
18:54<masch>performance, support in browsers, "what is possible"
18:54<TrueBrain>then why nodejs? :)
18:54<@planetmaker>you're the guy from play-ttd ?
18:54<masch>TrueBrain: server :P
18:54<TrueBrain>the fact that is uses javascript, doesn't make it a web technoligy ;)
18:54<masch>planetmaker: play-ttd? whats that?
18:55<@planetmaker>openttd in the browser.
18:55<masch>thats a emscript version
18:56<TrueBrain>making its network to work would be a nice goal ;)
18:56<masch>TrueBrain: thats the plan
18:56<TrueBrain>I mean, with emscript
18:56<masch>okay :D
18:56<TrueBrain>much more useful (to us) :P
18:56<Eddi|zuHause>what's worse with an automatic conversion via emscript, that's not with automatically converting to your machine language with gcc (or similar)?
18:57<masch>Eddi|zuHause: i dont say that emscript is bad
18:57<Eddi|zuHause>you said "meeeh"
18:58<Eddi|zuHause>and i didn't say "bad" either
18:58<Eddi|zuHause>i said "worse"
18:58<Eddi|zuHause>(referring to your "boring")
18:59<masch>Eddi|zuHause: the difference between "using emscript" and "reimplementing everything" is that you learn a lot more about how things work and can implement things diffently
18:59<TrueBrain>masch: just realise that "reimplementing everything" will take you several months if not years
18:59<TrueBrain>OpenTTD is HUGE
18:59<@planetmaker>300k+ lines
18:59<masch>TrueBrain: yes. My plan isnt "reimplementing everthing"
18:59<TrueBrain>now you are just confusing us :D
18:59<masch>my plan is "lets see how much i can get to work"
19:00<masch>the target is not to have a complete game
19:00<TrueBrain>so isn't emscript a better starting point?
19:00<TrueBrain>as it already does 90%? :)
19:00<TrueBrain>not wanting to spoil your fun etc, but I am just trying to get the most out of it of which OpenTTD benefits :)
19:01<masch>"The way is the goal."
19:01<TrueBrain>the way of getting network to work in a browser is also a goal :D
19:01<Eddi|zuHause>you did not even sketch a way...
19:01<@planetmaker>but not all ways equally interesting :-)
19:01<masch>TrueBrain: i dont do this to contribute to OpenTTD, sry :D
19:01<TrueBrain>planetmaker: btw, 200k lines, sry :)
19:01<Eddi|zuHause>you just throw in a few buzz words
19:02<TrueBrain>cpp: 184232 (90.52%)
19:02<TrueBrain>ansic: 17135 (8.42%)
19:02<TrueBrain>sh: 1485 (0.73%)
19:02<TrueBrain>awk: 682 (0.34%)
19:02<@planetmaker>TrueBrain: well, not bad for 12 months memory or so ;-)
19:02<masch>Eddi|zuHause: i was just asking for comments. I just started work on this..
19:02<TrueBrain>Development Effort Estimate, Person-Years (Person-Months) = 53.10 (637.21)
19:03<Eddi|zuHause>masch: see... it would take you 53 years to reimplement openttd
19:03<masch>it might take me over 100 years
19:03<masch>but as i told you already, thats not what i want
19:03<@planetmaker>TrueBrain: ohloh gives me 225k LOC, 65k comments. Which is pretty close to 300k :-)
19:03<TrueBrain>haha, you plan to become N+100 years old, and still code? :D
19:03<TrueBrain>kewl :) :D
19:03<TrueBrain>planetmaker: ohloh seems wrong ...
19:03<@planetmaker>and 46k blank
19:03<TrueBrain>I used latest trunk ..
19:04<TrueBrain>which is rather weird, as I don't see how counting lines can differ that much :P
19:04<TrueBrain>+/- 10k, sure
19:04<TrueBrain>but +/- 30% ...
19:04*NGC3982 notices that measuring emf fields with an android phone was serious business.
19:05<@planetmaker>TrueBrain: a cat */* | wc -l gives me 290k
19:05<Eddi|zuHause>maybe you get 30% more blank lines when you count \n and \r separately :)
19:05<TrueBrain>planetmaker: pff, I get 300k then
19:06<masch>there are a lot of things i'm doing differently by implementing them on my own. For example the "window system". The emscript version just draws anything in one big canvas
19:06<TrueBrain>planetmaker: but when done right, that results more in the order of 600k
19:06<@planetmaker>I know that all subs are excluded there
19:06<masch>For "UI" i'm using html elements & css. That should - in my hopes - improve performance
19:06<TrueBrain>weird, that sloccount and ohloh give such a different value
19:06<Eddi|zuHause>masch: that's what openttd does internally.
19:07<TrueBrain>owh well
19:07<TrueBrain>who cares .. a lot of lines :D
19:07<masch>Eddi|zuHause: i know
19:07<Eddi|zuHause>masch: you have to dig waaaay deeper into openttd core to change that
19:07<masch>But as i try to tell you: i dont try to copy OpenTTDs code
19:07<masch>i try to build a game that looks like TTD and works like TTD
19:08<masch>in the browser
19:08<masch>thats why i dont use emscript
19:08<masch>if i want to copy openttd, i would use emscript
19:08<masch>but thats not what i want
19:09<masch>ohh and sry for my bad grammar. Its late & i'm not a navtive speaker
19:09<Eddi|zuHause>if you don't want to reuse code, why be "like TTD" in the first place? TTD has so many shortcomings that you could easily avoid by designing a new game properly
19:09<TrueBrain>please, never say those things ... it is one of the most annoying things to read every single time people post or talk
19:09<TrueBrain>"sorry about my grammer"
19:09<TrueBrain>if it would be bad, we would ask you every single time what the fuck you are saying :P
19:10<TrueBrain>otherwise .. our humand minds can attach enough symbols together to make sense out of it :D
19:10<masch>okay :D
19:10<TrueBrain>the fact that you do want to apoligize says you have enoguh understanding of the language tbfh :P
19:10<Eddi|zuHause>masch: nearly nobody here is a native speaker... and usually people who say "sorry for my english. i'm not a native speaker" are way better than the native speakers anyway
19:11<@planetmaker>I think no-one who spoke in this hour is a native speaker
19:12<TrueBrain>and I am hungry
19:13<masch>Eddi|zuHause: you ask why i want to build it "like TTD". Because i like TTD! I really love this game.
19:13<@planetmaker>masch: and, I don't think you have to re-invent the sprites. Many things become available in the zbase project I linked you to above
19:13<@planetmaker>under the terms of the gpl you may use them all
19:13<@planetmaker>ready-to-use blender files with ready-rendered sprites in 3 sizes
19:13<@planetmaker>and proper lightening :-P
19:14<masch>planetmaker: yes, thanks. Thats what i looked for earlier. thanks a lot that will help me
19:14<@planetmaker>(but for a new game you should not care about openttd light direction anyway)
19:15<masch>planetmaker: i'm still shocked that you can see the difference between 2:00 and 4:30 O.o
19:15<TrueBrain>years of training :P
19:15<TrueBrain>before he became a dev
19:15<TrueBrain>we put him in a room
19:15<TrueBrain>for hours at end
19:15<TrueBrain>till he knew
19:15<@planetmaker>masch: I'm the maintainer of the base graphics set ;-)
19:15<TrueBrain>it was horrible
19:15<@planetmaker>and yes, TrueBrain is totally right ;-)
19:16<TrueBrain>I totally not make that up :D
19:16<@planetmaker>masch: I'm not the only one who notices, though. Just read a bit grpahics forum
19:16<@planetmaker>it's like a religion :-P
19:16<Eddi|zuHause>i've been hearing this talk for years, and i still don't notice a difference between 2:00 and 4:30
19:17<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: brightness of slopes on terrain
19:17<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: maybe that is why you are not dev? :D
19:17<Eddi|zuHause>that must be it :p
19:17<@planetmaker>tbh, it was andy who convinced me :-P
19:18<@planetmaker>(with the light)
19:18<Eddi|zuHause>and all these years i was thinking it's because i don't conctribute enough code :p
19:18<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: like planetmaker contributed code :P
19:18<masch>TrueBrain: to be hones, these are the first working tiles and i havend done that blender file. Some guy on reddit postet it and helped me to add some missing tiles. One of my next steps is to get a proper, nice way to render those images
19:18<TrueBrain>I am guessing :P
19:19*TrueBrain hugs planetmaker; it was just too easy :D
19:19<@planetmaker>I know :-)
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19:20<Eddi|zuHause>masch: one of the big shortcomings of TTD is the fixed steepness of slopes. if you design a new (tile-based) game, then you might want to allow for more varied slopes
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19:21<masch>Eddi|zuHause: thats the only thing me engine does properly right now!!111 I will never change that xD
19:22<masch>Map generation: ~1hour : learn to use libnoise, generate a noisemap; ~2hours: smooth that noisemap to be a valid openttd map!
19:23<Eddi|zuHause>if i could redesign the slopes, i would change the current 8px (z-level) slopes into steps of 4,8 and 12. tunnels can only be placed on 12 slopes, rails only on 4 slopes, roads on 4 and 8 slopes. bridges over road/rail must have minimum height 12
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19:26<Eddi|zuHause>i recently started up SimCity 2000, man that game did not age as well as TT...
19:27<@planetmaker>please tell :-) Why not?
19:27<masch>:D that one of the games i was to dumb for all these year. Never created something that worked
19:30<Eddi|zuHause>dunno really, it's not one specific thing that is wrong... maybe the pale graphics. maybe the awkward user interface, maybe the really limited gameplay compared to SC4, ...
19:31<Eddi|zuHause>the maps seemed smaller than 15 years ago :p
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---Logclosed Sun Jul 22 00:00:26 2012