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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-07-22

---Logopened Sun Jul 22 00:00:26 2012
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01:33<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r24429 /trunk/ (config.lib src/depend/depend.cpp): -Change: add some hardening flags to the compiler for release builds
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02:20<andythenorth>autorefit is very confusing
02:20<andythenorth>the cb result is ignored if 'to available cargo' is used
02:20<andythenorth>this isn't documented
02:22<andythenorth>^ allows refitting from any cargo to oil
02:24<andythenorth>can't see why it should
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02:31*andythenorth wonders if bauxite has cargo class liquid
02:32<andythenorth>so during autorefit cb, the meaning of 'cargo_classes_in_consist' is changed for nml?
02:33<andythenorth>it reports var 10, not var 47
02:33<andythenorth>why does it do that?
02:34<andythenorth>I should be using var 42 anyway :P
02:34<andythenorth>but still
02:34<andythenorth>swap 42 / 47 above, my mistake
02:40*andythenorth solves it
02:44<andythenorth>ok so here's how the error case is handled for autorefit of 'refit failed':
02:44<andythenorth>- ...
02:44<andythenorth>nothing :P
02:44<andythenorth>so player can set up routes that are invalid
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04:01<@peter1138>So what would cause %si to rise over time?
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04:22<LordAro>hai Alberth
04:22<@Alberth>hi LordAro
04:23*LordAro whispers "there's a strange person in #freerct ! :O
04:23<@Alberth>(too many lords here, I have to type 5 characters to auto-complete your name :p )
04:23<LordAro>only 2 :P
04:24<@peter1138>So has anyone seen an issue where usleep() will cause a high software interrupt load, and sleep for way longer than requested?
04:24<@planetmaker>andythenorth: <-- I think that there in line 4 you only allow refit, if the cargo has no other class other than liquid (including express, etc)
04:24<@Alberth>LordAro: yeah, that happens with a public channel, apparently someones are reading my blog :)
04:24<LordAro>apparently so :P
04:25<@peter1138>I'm aware that it sleeps for _at least_ the time specified.
04:26<@Alberth>wouldn't that make your 'issue' be compliant to specs then?
04:26<@peter1138>Not the high software interrupt load.
04:27<@peter1138>I set up a test that calls usleep(100) and prints a counter and a timestamp every 100 calls.
04:28<@peter1138>It's managing just 300-400 usleep(100) a second.
04:28<@peter1138>Meanwhile the user cpu load of the program is 0-1%.
04:29<@peter1138>%si hits 50-60%
04:30<@peter1138>On my desktop, the same program manages about 2400 calls in a second, user cpu usage is 26% and %si is 0%
04:31<@peter1138>Which is what I expect.
04:33<@peter1138>Oh, and basically anything on the system that sleeps is causing high software interrupt load, and generally running slowly.
04:33<@peter1138>And a reboot will fix it, for a while.
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04:36<@Alberth>moin Wolf01
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04:42*andythenorth thinks that FISH autorefit is smelly
04:43<andythenorth>and needs rethinking
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04:43*LordAro thinks andythenorth should stop complaining....about _everything_ >:)
04:43*andythenorth complains about LordAro
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04:45<andythenorth>maybe I give in and just add tankers to FISH
04:46<@planetmaker>andythenorth: you saw my comment above?
04:46<andythenorth>yup thanks ;)
04:46<andythenorth>I have it all working
04:46<@planetmaker>k :-)
04:47<andythenorth>I don't like the way that autorefit makes it easy to create invalid / broken orders
04:47*Alberth expected a complaint about everything working :p
04:47<@Alberth>moin andy :)
04:48<@planetmaker>"I changed so many things and it STILL is working!" :-P
04:48<@planetmaker>(frome secret dreams of a secret terrorist)
04:49*andythenorth thinks autorefit should come with a health warning
04:49<andythenorth>it's trivial for newgrf authors to cause a lot of trouble :P
04:49<@peter1138>It always has been.
04:50<andythenorth>yes that too
04:50<andythenorth>newgrf should come with a health warnng
04:50<Wolf01>planetmaker, didn't you know you shouldn't write the word "terrorist" in chat/facebook/whatelse and the CIA is about to visit you?
04:50<Wolf01>...shit I did it too
04:51<@planetmaker>Wolf01: yes. That's why the subjects of encrypted e-mails I write usually contain things like "nuclear" "bomb" "guantanamo" or similar. No kidding
04:52<Hirundo>andythenorth: FYI - Your (absolutely rightful) complaints made me fix the NML docs yesterday night, though now I realize that info on the refit_cost CB parameters is still missing
04:53<andythenorth>Hirundo: thanks :) Sorry for the complaining :P
04:54<andythenorth>autorefit fails if the corresponding misc_flag is not set btw
04:54<Hirundo>No need to be sorry, good complaints are basically valid bug reports
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04:55<andythenorth>so by preventing refitting from some classes to other classes, I introduce a lot of 'wtf' for players
04:55<andythenorth>don't really like that
04:56<andythenorth>nor do I like cargo ships magically turning into tankers or ferries at docks
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05:04<Hirundo>andythenorth: There is/was another bug in NML, that may have prevented the refit cost callback from being called in the purchase list chain
05:06<andythenorth>by any chance, does that also affect the refit menu?
05:07*andythenorth suspects not
05:07<Hirundo>It should not, for an existing vehicle
05:07<Hirundo>AFAIK it's called only during cloning, to copy refits
05:12<@Terkhen>good morning
05:13<@planetmaker>hi Terkhen
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05:37*andythenorth needs some names for tankers
05:37<andythenorth>based on sea areas
05:37<andythenorth>FISH buy menu is about to gain 20 or so ships :P
05:44<@planetmaker>"Barent" "Biscay" "Suez"
05:47<Rubidium>Zuyder ;)
05:48<Rubidium>Zuyderzee if you want it to be full
05:48<Rubidium>preferably for a ship before 1932
05:48<Rubidium>planetmaker: you should capitalise the J as well
05:49<@planetmaker>how was tile type rain forest defined?
05:49<Rubidium>at a specific height and more than X from desert?
05:50<Rubidium>or via the TropicZone
05:50<@planetmaker>yes, something like that :-P
05:51*andythenorth has set redesign brainache :P
05:52<andythenorth>I should exclude liquid cargos from non-tankers?
05:52<andythenorth>even in drums etc
05:52<Rubidium>aren't there like tank-containers?
05:53<andythenorth>yes there are
05:53<andythenorth>I wonder what the purpose of adding 20 or so tankers is
05:53<andythenorth>they'll be similar appearance & same stats as the non-tankers
05:54<andythenorth>this is purely to stop autorefit being odd
05:54*andythenorth considers excluding autorefit :P
05:56<andythenorth>I could remove the tanker graphics
05:56<andythenorth>that solves this
06:00<@planetmaker>andythenorth: I'd suggest to allow auto-refit. But quite low capacity when to liquid. Tankers otoh are only refittable to liquids
06:00<@planetmaker>but have much higher capacity
06:01<@planetmaker>like 30% capacity with liquids when compared to piece goods or bulk
06:01<@planetmaker>thus it allows refit. But gives enough incentive to use dedicated tankers
06:01<Hirundo>sounds sensible
06:02<Hirundo>though 30% might be a bit low, I'd say 50--70% and perhaps add a difference in loading speed
06:02<@planetmaker>yes, also fine with me :-)
06:02<@planetmaker>I think I used that even around that range in ogfx+trains
06:03<@planetmaker>flatbed wagon with liquids: around 20. Other cargos 30 ... 40
06:03<@planetmaker>tank wagon as usual 30 ... 40
06:04<andythenorth>it's the best solution so far
06:05<andythenorth>fixing autorefit is out of the question I guess?
06:05<@planetmaker>what needs fixing?
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06:06<andythenorth>don't permit invalid orders to be set
06:06<andythenorth>I can't see how that would be done, autorefit is non-deterministic
06:07<andythenorth>example case....
06:07<andythenorth>- refit from oil to coal not allowed
06:07<@planetmaker>example save?
06:08<andythenorth>1 min
06:09<andythenorth>you'll need the grf too
06:10<andythenorth>ship 1
06:10<andythenorth>has orders that can't be fulfilled
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06:18<@planetmaker>andythenorth: what FIRS version?
06:18<andythenorth>do you want the grf?
06:19<@planetmaker>for quick testing might be nice
06:19<@planetmaker>though.. should be quick to compile. Thx
06:21<@planetmaker>hehe. Without that grf I had invalid industries delivering invalid cargos ;-)
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06:23*andythenorth is thinking about cargo aging as well
06:24*andythenorth can't decide if FISH needs fundamental redesign or not :P
06:24<andythenorth>e.g. livestock vessels that age livestock slower
06:25<@Alberth>make FISH 2.0, or SHARK :)
06:25<andythenorth>refrigerated ships for refrigerated cargos
06:25<andythenorth>this might become FISH 2.0 :P
06:25<andythenorth>skipping 1.0 entirely :P
06:25<andythenorth>it's complicated making lots of ship varieties, due to the need to provide multiple sizes
06:26<Eddi|zuHause>how does "redesign everything" every two weeks help come up with an actually good design?
06:27*Alberth ponders why you need multiple sizes
06:27<@Alberth>2 sizes should be enough
06:27<andythenorth>big, small
06:27<@Alberth>and for small size, it makes sense to have less facilities imho
06:28<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: we need to stop the newgrf spec evolving :P
06:28<@planetmaker>nasty stuff that refit, andythenorth. Thanks for showing :-)
06:28<@Alberth>we need andy to ignore newer revisions of the spec :)
06:28<andythenorth>since I designed FISH - nicely I think - we gained autorefit and cargo aging :D
06:28<@planetmaker>(yes, much easier with this save for me. See is easier than hear)
06:28<andythenorth>point taken
06:29<andythenorth>I thought this was intended / known issue :P
06:29<andythenorth>I can't see how it can be avoided
06:29<@planetmaker>well. It's unintuitive for the player, I think
06:29<andythenorth>it will cause bug reports
06:29<@planetmaker>autorefit is nice. But giving options which won't be obeyed... is nasty
06:29<andythenorth>I didn't show the non-deterministic case
06:29<andythenorth>this case is actually deterministic
06:30<andythenorth>'refit any available'
06:30<andythenorth>for the case shown, we could run the cb chain for each order
06:30<andythenorth>and indicate valid / invalid refits
06:30<@planetmaker>oh. you play with breakdowns :-P
06:30<@planetmaker>A smoking tanker is scary
06:30<andythenorth>but can't run the cb chain if 'refit any available' is used
06:30<@planetmaker>especially as the smoke comes from the starboard side...
06:31<@planetmaker>and not the exhaust or so ;-)
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06:33<andythenorth>michi_cc cb 15E / refit_cost: would it not be better to always allow autorefit if the misc flag is set?
06:33<andythenorth>rather than giving newgrf author option to set bit 14 or not
06:34<andythenorth>not allowing an autorefit is imho broken :)
06:35<@planetmaker>andythenorth: it's there again a backward compatibility thing
06:35<@planetmaker>autorefit imho must make sure that the visual appearance of the ship doesn#t change
06:35<@planetmaker>As vehicles are not re-painted on the fly in stations
06:35<@planetmaker>Just loaded with a different cargo
06:36<@planetmaker>But many refits actually change the visual appearance beside the cargo
06:36<@planetmaker>imho a very good approach would be to separate cargo and vehicle sprites
06:37<@planetmaker>though... might not make much sense. Not sure
06:37<andythenorth>also the example from the nfo docs - negative costs when removing articulated parts
06:37<andythenorth>is very bad, as that is explicitly not allowed
06:37<andythenorth>"vehicles may not change length in stations"
06:37<andythenorth>I know there's also a depot case, but still bad
06:38<@planetmaker>yes. You can also refit via orders in depots
06:38<@planetmaker>so that makes well sense
06:38<andythenorth>maybe it needs extending
06:38<andythenorth>"do not allow autorefit if the length of the vehicle will change"
06:38<andythenorth>i.e. if cb36 then changes vehicle length etc
06:39<@planetmaker>the problem is: newgrfs are very flexible and give an awesome amount of choices
06:40<@planetmaker>The backdraw is: authors are responsible to take care of edge cases
06:40<@planetmaker>It can't all be caught by openttd itself, I think. Even not theoretically
06:40<andythenorth>newgrf author has to do the right thing
06:41<@planetmaker>having openttd check things would remove quite a few options which are now present
06:41<@planetmaker>or would mean to re-invent the wheel at least 50%
06:42<andythenorth>it's fine in docs
06:42<andythenorth>game can't check everything
06:43*andythenorth is still puzzled by what to do with FISH though
06:43<andythenorth>best option seems to be adding separate tankers
06:43<andythenorth>or just accept graphics changing at stations
06:44<andythenorth>vehicle storage is still ruled out?
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06:47<andythenorth>if refit rules were guaranteed symmetric across n cases
06:47<andythenorth>then 'refit any available' would still be somewhat deterministic
06:47<andythenorth>so we could run the cb for each order and filter out non-available cargos for autorefit
06:47<@planetmaker>if I can refit A->B then B->A should also work, yes
06:47<@planetmaker>it's feasible to disallow. But... not sensible
06:48*andythenorth proposes running the cb for each order
06:48<@planetmaker>might make sense, yes. But won't be feasible in all cases:
06:48<@planetmaker>'load available' -> 'load available'. Hm?
06:48<@planetmaker>might change even on each run
06:49<andythenorth>I think it works though, with an edge case
06:49<@planetmaker>even from unknown -> X is nothing which can be decided
06:49<@planetmaker>or X->unknown
06:49<@planetmaker>though X->unknown is not that bad
06:50<andythenorth>for the way I've implemented it in FISH, 'unknown' is from a limited set
06:50<andythenorth>and refit can't cross set boundaries
06:50<andythenorth>so as long as you know the starting set, you always know all the refittable cargos
06:50<andythenorth>the edge case is that starting set may change :P
06:51<andythenorth>depends on current cargo refit when the orders are being set :P
06:51<andythenorth>obv. this is just the FISH case
06:51<andythenorth>other grfs will vary
06:51<@planetmaker>well. That's about what I implemented, too.
06:51<andythenorth>this needs some kind of set-based logic?
06:52<andythenorth>I wonder if a better implementation of autorefit is needed
06:52<andythenorth>the current one is thoroughly dangerous :P
06:52<andythenorth>'allow autorefit if it's Tuesday'
06:52*Alberth never plays at tuesdays :)
06:52<andythenorth>guess it's similar to dangers of cargo acceptance at industries :P
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06:53<@planetmaker>yes. or cargo production
06:53<andythenorth>my sets are:
06:53<andythenorth>liquid < - > liquid
06:53<andythenorth>pax < - > pax
06:53<@planetmaker>the cargo classes basically
06:53<andythenorth>any other < - > any other
06:54<andythenorth>and I'm using strict matching, must be liquid and only liquid
06:54<@planetmaker>pax, piece, bulk, liquid. Maybe armour and neo-bulk
06:54<@planetmaker>liquid and liquid only for a cargo imho is bad
06:54<andythenorth>strict match prevents accidentally non-symmetric issues
06:54<@planetmaker>or can't a cargo be liquid and piece (like water in tanker and bottles)?
06:55<Hirundo>what if you allow refit if (old_cc & bitmask(pax, liquid) == new_cc & bitmask(pax, liquid))
06:55<andythenorth>Hirundo: that's pretty much my code
06:56<@planetmaker>andythenorth: not exactly. What I saw is cargo_class = bitmask(liquid)
06:56<@planetmaker>which is much more restrictive
06:57<andythenorth>if it's not restrictive, I don't know how to guarantee symmetric refits
06:57<@planetmaker>like hirundo posted is imho the proper way
06:58<@planetmaker>hm... is it?
06:58<andythenorth>consider a 3-stop route
06:58<andythenorth>A -> B -> C
06:59<andythenorth>A refits to liquid, B to liquid, piece, C to piece
06:59<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: what Hirundo wrote is perfectly symmetric
06:59<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it is impossible to refit from (liquid,piece) to piece
07:00<andythenorth>what does my current code do? :(
07:00<@planetmaker>disallow all cargos which have another cc than liquid
07:00<Eddi|zuHause>haven't seen your current code, but from what planetmaker wrote i suspect you disallow refitting from liquid to (liquid,piece) instead
07:01<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: see the paste he posted ;-)
07:01<andythenorth>I disallow refitting from liquid to (liquid, piece)
07:01<Eddi|zuHause>which is also symmetric, but less intuitive
07:01<andythenorth>why is it better to disallow refit from (liquid, piece) to piece?
07:02<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: piece is a bad example. take (liquid, express)
07:02<andythenorth>you don't want to be able to refit that to express?
07:03<@planetmaker>but you disallow that cargo to be autorefitted
07:03<Hirundo>express might even be tourists
07:03<@planetmaker>as you don't use the & connection
07:04<@planetmaker>cc_old & bitmask(liquid) == cc_new & bitmask(liquid)
07:04<@planetmaker>does allow refitting also to express liquids
07:04<@planetmaker>your code doesn't
07:04<@planetmaker>if you do have a cargo with cc = bitmask(liquid, piece, express), it might though happen...
07:05<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it's more intuitive that you allow refitting from liquid to (liquid, express) than from (liquid,express) to express
07:05<@planetmaker>that you traverse from liquid -> liquid, piece, express and then to piece,express
07:06<@planetmaker>andythenorth: you should only check for refit the piece, bulk, pax or liquid ccs
07:06<andythenorth>a number of things are clear here
07:06<@planetmaker>wasn't that your own argument months ago?
07:06<andythenorth>(1) I don't understand bitmasks in nml :P
07:06<@planetmaker>with the "new" cargo classes?
07:06<andythenorth>planetmaker: yes
07:06<@planetmaker>e.g. the "sets" are only defined by these
07:06<andythenorth>I thought I'd written code that did that :)
07:07<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: replace "extra_callback_info1 >> 16" by "(extra_callback_info1 >> 16) & bitmask(CC_PASSENGERS, CC_LIQUID)" (though then liquid passengers can cause weird effects :p)
07:08<Eddi|zuHause>everything else stays like it is
07:08<@planetmaker>also called squids?
07:09<Eddi|zuHause>they'd fall into the "other" group, as far as i can tell
07:09*andythenorth needs to learn how bitmasks work in nml :P
07:09<andythenorth>found the docs
07:11<@planetmaker>(a & b) results in 1 at those bits where both a and b have "1" set
07:12<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: what my change does is switch out "other classes must be 0" to "other classes are don't-care"
07:12<andythenorth>I wrote that code yesterday and removed it
07:12<andythenorth>other classes need to be 0
07:13<Eddi|zuHause>also read about "monotonous binary functions" :)
07:14*andythenorth wikipedia
07:15<@planetmaker>btw, andythenorth: mind that (at least in FIRS), food and goods both don't have "piece" set as cargo class
07:15<andythenorth>anyway, tweaking the refit rules doesn't solve the fundamental issue
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07:16<@planetmaker>thus what I do actually: I don't go by cargo class, but by cargo label
07:16<andythenorth>autorefit should be allow all, or allow none
07:16<@planetmaker>thus I know what I have and then I can happily group them
07:16<@planetmaker>cargo classes can change. labels don't change the meaning of the cargo
07:16<andythenorth>yes, I read ogfx+ rv code, which does same
07:16<andythenorth>I tried some label based refitting yesterday
07:16<andythenorth>I removed it
07:16<@planetmaker>it's loads of labels, but so what?
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07:17<@planetmaker>classes are somewhat broken as used with a different understanding everywhere and everyone
07:17<@planetmaker>while an individual cargo is quite clear
07:17<andythenorth>thought it was overcomplicated
07:17<andythenorth>easy to code, but not needed
07:18<@planetmaker>"easy to code" == complicated?
07:18<@planetmaker>this discussion proves the opposite, I'd say :-P
07:18<andythenorth>I didn't see what it added in the FISH case
07:18<@planetmaker>it adds that you know which cargos are in a "set". And it gives you absolute control over traversal of sets
07:18<andythenorth>I added special label-based cases for cargos that have (liquid, other cases)
07:18<@planetmaker>and simply disallows autorefit for unknown cargos
07:19<andythenorth>does this make your brain hurt?
07:19<andythenorth>or is that just me?
07:20<@planetmaker>As long as I ignore cargo classes, I'm fine
07:20<@planetmaker>a bit more work to write things down in the newgrf code as more lengthy. But I have no edge cases
07:20<@planetmaker>only cases of unknown cargos which can be refit-to only in depots. But so what
07:20<andythenorth>specifically wrt FISH, I ended up with 100% identical sets using labels or classes, but the labels code was longer
07:21<andythenorth>so I removed it on the basis of occam's razor
07:21<andythenorth>however, that's by the by
07:21<andythenorth>I'm still puzzled why disallowing some refits is seen as valid
07:21<andythenorth>afaict it should just be a misc_flag
07:22<andythenorth>allow refit / don't allow refit
07:22<andythenorth>no cb result
07:22<andythenorth>apart from legacy support :P
07:23<andythenorth>if used, the cb simply adds a significant source of bug reports for openttd devs / newgrf authors
07:23<andythenorth>which seems undesirable
07:23<@planetmaker>Depends on how it's used.
07:24<@planetmaker>I can allow autorefit from oil (barrels) to containers. But not oil (tanker) to containers.
07:24<andythenorth>what are the cases where autorefit is allowed conditionally, but doesn't cause bug reports?
07:24*andythenorth has an idea
07:24<Sacro>oh dear
07:24<andythenorth>open a red dialogue when using autorefit order: "You may not file bug reports if this feature is used" :D
07:25<@planetmaker>andythenorth: simply forget about cargo classes... Makes things easy ;-)
07:26<andythenorth>you think? :)
07:26*andythenorth considers simply forgetting about autorefit instead
07:27<@planetmaker>andythenorth: all these "bad cases": I don't believe that they exist with ogfx+trains/rv
07:27<andythenorth>let's see
07:28<andythenorth>you probably have your vehicles set up correctly for this in the first place
07:29<andythenorth>planetmaker: do ogfx vehicles change appearance depending on refit?
07:31<@planetmaker>under some cases. Those should be available in depot only
07:31<@planetmaker>Terkhen: might know the details in the RV code better.
07:32<@Alberth>mostly they change in time, so you have to search for a wagon for a minute during a game :)
07:40<@planetmaker>Alberth: so you think it's confusing?
07:41<@Terkhen>planetmaker: if you are talking about autorefit... I got reports of problems with my code :P
07:41<andythenorth>Terkhen: which bulk cargoes can't I autorefit from -> to?
07:41<@Alberth>in the game-world, it is good, I like different graphics even for wagons that carry the same cargo type, it adds variety
07:42<andythenorth>Terkhen: (wrt opengfx+ rv)
07:42<@Alberth>in the buy menu, I don't see much of a point to change from grey to (in my case) pink.
07:42<@planetmaker>I see
07:43<@Terkhen>andythenorth: in theory what is mentioned in the readme
07:43<@Terkhen>in practice... I still did not start to look at what is supposedly wrong in my code
07:43<@Alberth>I needed a coal wagon, and it seemed to have disappeared, as I was looking for the same grey wagon
07:43<andythenorth>oops, missed part of the readme :P
07:43<@Alberth>only after I toggled 'show me wagons that carry coal', I found it
07:43<@Terkhen>it is just an arbitrary decision, based on planetmaker's first autorefit group scheme
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07:44<andythenorth>so all bulk trucks can refit to all other bulk cargos
07:44<@planetmaker>andythenorth: yes-ish
07:44<@Alberth>but I can also see the point that the buy menu should reflect the game world graphics
07:44<@planetmaker>some with cost. some without.
07:44<@planetmaker>I added the 'clean' criterion to decide on cost or not
07:45<andythenorth>afaict, ogfx+ never disallows a to -> from refit
07:45<andythenorth>it's just a cost setting
07:45<@planetmaker>flatbed does
07:45<@planetmaker>bulk doesn't
07:46<@Terkhen>IIRC tanker disables some too
07:47*Sacro hums the german national anthem
07:47<@planetmaker>flatbed has a few "sets" as you call it: vehicles (VEHI, ENSP, FMSP), container (GOOD, FOOD,...), stake (STEL, WOOD,...)
07:47<@planetmaker>you can auto-refit within one set. But depot-refit only between sets
07:47<@planetmaker>or so is at least the intention
07:49<@planetmaker>autorefit there is for free. Depot-refit is not. Looks in auto-refit doesn't change, looks in depot-refit does
07:51<andythenorth>so ogfx+ rv doesn't have the orders issue afaict
07:51<@planetmaker>doesn't it have the same settings for flatbed?
07:51<andythenorth>for example, I can set tank trucks to refit from milk -> oil on a round trip
07:51<andythenorth>readme is incorrect btw
07:52<@planetmaker>yes, that refit milk->oil is feasible, sure
07:52<andythenorth>it also completes oil -> milk on the other end of the trip
07:52<@planetmaker>also oil->milk (but probably at higher cost)
07:52<andythenorth>readme implies can't refit between groups
07:53<andythenorth>I didn't try flatbeds yet
07:53*planetmaker tests
07:53<andythenorth>anyway, the appearance changes
07:53<andythenorth>which makes me think maybe appearance of FISH can change too
07:53<@planetmaker>that's more a "missing sprites" thing :-)
07:54<@planetmaker>imho it shouldn't change during auto-refit
07:55<andythenorth>might be the least evil of the available options though ;)
07:55<andythenorth>obv. it looks stupid
07:56<andythenorth>but so do trains disappearing into 1 tile depots
07:56<andythenorth>maybe I just live with it
07:57<@Terkhen>what is the order issue?
07:58*FLHerne just used autorefit to pool all mineral cargos on the map at one transfer station, then send them back out to the secondary industries :D
07:59<andythenorth>Terkhen can specify a refit order that the newgrf doesn't permit
08:00<andythenorth>players will likely report bugs arising from this
08:00<FLHerne>Would it be possible to allow OTTD online content to download nightlies from the devzone? :P
08:13<@Terkhen>why should that thing be possible?
08:13*planetmaker notices that two admiralAIs started in the just started game :-D
08:17*planetmaker notices that "gradual loading" does not work with autorefit available as intended
08:18<@planetmaker>with "gradual loading" the whole train will refit to the most common cargo (and each wagon transport 5 grain) instead of 3 with full grain and 2 with iron ore
08:23<@planetmaker>hm... no auto-refit from iron ore to grain
08:24<@Alberth>FLHerne: you want more people getting heavily confused from development versions?
08:24<@Alberth>FLHerne: just set up a script that pulls them for you every day/night
08:24<@Alberth>I am sure there are wget programs for windows too :)
08:27<frosch123>planetmaker: we hava a fs task about that :)
08:34<andythenorth>Terkhen: why should it be possible that player can specify a refit order that grf doesn't permit?
08:34<andythenorth>(was that the question?) :)
08:37<@Terkhen>I'm asking how is that possible :P
08:37*Terkhen still does not understand the issue
08:37<@planetmaker>andythenorth: seems that I can also specify impossible refits with ogfx+trains
08:37<andythenorth>you choose to go to A, and refit oil
08:37<andythenorth>but when the cb runs, oil is not permitted
08:37<@planetmaker>ore->grain doesn't work for me
08:37<andythenorth>your vehicle does not then behave as expected
08:37<andythenorth>so you report bugs
08:38<andythenorth>the 'why'...hmm
08:38<andythenorth>this is because refittable cargos are treated separately to the autorefit cb
08:38<andythenorth>what should actually happen is that the refittable cargos list is the result of a cb
08:39<@Terkhen>that sounds like a bug in OpenTTD, not in the NewGRF
08:39<andythenorth>it's a bug in this feature
08:39<andythenorth>fairly fundamental
08:39<andythenorth>which is a big shame, as it's a really nice feature
08:40<andythenorth>I am uncertain of the best fix
08:40<andythenorth>the simplest might be to start ignoring bit 14 on cb 15E
08:41<andythenorth>and rely only on the misc property
08:43<FLHerne>Alberth: Late reply, sorry. Good idea. wget should do fine, actually :-)
08:44<@Alberth>ok :)
08:44<andythenorth>I don't think it's appropriate for a newgrf to be able to cause orders to be non-valid
08:44<+michi_cc>The problem with the autorefit GUI is that the cargo type the vehicle will have when it reaches that order is not known. Thus the list can't be filter by the autorefit CB, as the old cargo is unknown.
08:45<andythenorth>I'd sooner lose the feature, and the bug reports with it ;)
08:46<andythenorth>michi_cc: I do like the feature in principle btw, in case you feel under-appreciated :)
08:46<+michi_cc>You know, you could loose all your buy menu worries in a second if you'd make use of introduction and retirement dates ;)
08:47<andythenorth>oh, that :P
08:47<+michi_cc>People with 'vehicles never expire' on don't count, as they explicitely chose the 'spam buy menu' option.
08:47<andythenorth>accurate dates are a version 1 feature :P
08:49<frosch123>a vehicle which has no "retire early" propery set to something bigger than 2, is no proper vehicle
08:49<andythenorth>so anyway, I'm going to set FISH to autorefit any cargo
08:50*frosch123 loves generalisations :)
08:50<andythenorth>and if the graphics change at stations, so be it
09:02<andythenorth>that was many fun days of debate about refitting rules and substrings
09:02<andythenorth>rendered redundant :D
09:03<andythenorth>next time, test implementation first, design argument second :P
09:06<@Alberth>that's a bad strategy with clients: "I build what you asked for, but concluded it is not what you want" :p
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09:09<andythenorth>it's fun to know that I'm never too old to make basic mistakes :)
09:10<frosch123>best strategy is when you do stuff for clients which they do not need, but pay nevertheless
09:10<frosch123>there is no need that it really works
09:10<andythenorth>best strategy is don't build things for individual clients
09:10<andythenorth>not always possible :P
09:10<andythenorth>so autorefit is done anyway
09:10<andythenorth>what next? cargo aging?
09:11*andythenorth might avoid that complication
09:11<@Alberth>that would make 'recycle-plants' useful :p
09:11<andythenorth>so when should ship models expire?
09:11<frosch123>3 years after a cleary better one is introduced
09:12<andythenorth>I can't control for that
09:12<@Alberth>probably longer than 3 years
09:12<@planetmaker>andythenorth: you can make sure that the superior one is introduced
09:12<@planetmaker>Some overlap doesn't hurt
09:13<@planetmaker>The randomness is not more than +- two years
09:13<andythenorth>it's 17 years iirc
09:13<@planetmaker>uhm... for introduction?
09:13<andythenorth>perhaps not
09:13*andythenorth checks spec
09:13<frosch123>just make the latest possible introduction shortly before the first expiration
09:13<andythenorth>planetmaker: you're correct
09:14<andythenorth>what about cases where there's no replacement?
09:14<@planetmaker>don't expire it?
09:14<frosch123>[14:49] <frosch123> a vehicle which has no "retire early" propery set to something bigger than 2, is no proper vehicle <- wrt. the 17 years
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09:14<frosch123>andythenorth: ever played civilization?
09:15<andythenorth>mr meier
09:15<frosch123>there is always an archer
09:15<frosch123>it is replaced by better archers over time
09:15<Eddi|zuHause>until you hit gunpowder :)
09:15<frosch123>but the last one stays for ever, even if you have tanks
09:16<andythenorth>ok so I leave model life alone for now
09:17<andythenorth>as FISH has no technology progression
09:17<andythenorth>I could fix the buy menu sprites :(
09:17<andythenorth>that's a dull job :P
09:17<andythenorth>so would you rather see the front, back, or middle of a boat?
09:18<andythenorth>I am thinking middle
09:19<frosch123>most variety imo
09:20<andythenorth>I can't figure out how to centre it and show the front
09:20<andythenorth>buy menu sprites should be centre-aligned
09:20<andythenorth>some grfs do it wrong
09:20<frosch123>if you clip sprites, you should left-align them
09:21<frosch123>centering clipped stuff makes no sense
09:21<frosch123>clipped stuff takes the complete space
09:21<andythenorth>pikka cheats
09:21<andythenorth>he's using setx
09:22<frosch123>the clipping should end in front of the text
09:22<frosch123>so, the clipping border is kind of aligned
09:23<andythenorth>I'll try it
09:23<@planetmaker>andythenorth: he doesn't open his code for inspection either :-P
09:23<andythenorth>he does if you ask nicely
09:23<andythenorth>and he's in the mood ;)
09:24<@planetmaker>:-) well, yeah; there's also grfcodec
09:25<@planetmaker>but it's different than having it open for comment to the pack around here at all times ;-)
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09:34<andythenorth>done? ^
09:38<andythenorth>buy menu might cause you to think the freighter is small....
09:38<andythenorth> isn't :)
09:39<@planetmaker>lol. A bit big, eh?
09:40<andythenorth>doesn't suit the depot view much
09:40<andythenorth>but that's an old issue
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09:45<Eddi|zuHause>might want to scale everything down a notch then :)
09:45<Eddi|zuHause>and that ship looks weird
09:45<Eddi|zuHause>like it's "dualheaded"
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09:46<andythenorth>looks a bit push-me-pull-you?
09:47<andythenorth>what are the rules for ship depots resizing their grid?
09:47<andythenorth>sometimes they do it, sometimes they don't
09:49<@Alberth>probably big enough to fit the biggest ship at the moment they open
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09:51<frosch123>they use the biggest purchase list sprite :p
09:51<frosch123>so, by fixing the purchase list, you break the depot :p
09:51<andythenorth>that's interesting
09:51<frosch123>but they use "depot view" in var 10
09:51<frosch123>so you have a chance to fix that
09:55<frosch123>should we add the very special case purchaselist+depotview ?
09:55<andythenorth>there aren't enough views already? :o
09:58<frosch123> <- makes sense? :p
09:59<frosch123>typical case of coding something while not being aware of what it really does :p
10:07<andythenorth>biab, driving
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10:14<@planetmaker> <-- I find this a bit funny and sad...
10:15<@Alberth>do you mean you have to read text before you can use a computer??? :O
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10:23<@planetmaker>Alberth: not before. But... maybe while
10:23<@Alberth>bummer, I did it wrong then, I read it before ;)
10:24<@planetmaker>you're an old bloke ;-)
10:25<@planetmaker>Today people watch a youtube tutorial, I guess
10:25<@Alberth>maybe not having X11 available out of the box also helped :)
10:25<@planetmaker>But they don't deal with command line. And text writing
10:27<@Alberth>that is, copy 75 floppies, boot, and get a text terminal with a login prompt :p
10:27<@planetmaker>I never had to copy that many. DOS came on two. And even word was only 20 :-P
10:27<@planetmaker>Civ I had 4
10:28<frosch123>hmm, i had something on 31 disks
10:28<@Alberth>Slackware was my first distribution
10:28<@planetmaker>(though Civ 1, I didn't copy. That I bought)
10:28<frosch123>maybe it was borland pascal 7
10:28<@planetmaker>and my first linux came on CDs. 5 CDs and it was like suse 5.3 or so
10:29<@Alberth>later, I switched to tape drive, much more convenient :p
10:29<@planetmaker>recently I converted the CDs to rocket wings :-P
10:29<frosch123>planetmaker: those cds were weird; you only ever needed two of them
10:29<@Alberth>tapes of a whopping 250MB :)
10:29<frosch123>the other cds were only to make it look cool or so
10:30<@Alberth>frosch123: like the early days of transistor radios, "this one has X transistors", where some of them were just placed on the PCB without doing anything
10:31<@planetmaker>hehe :)
10:32<frosch123>yeah, today's tube amplifiers also only have them to make them look cool
10:33<frosch123>oh, or equalizers
10:33<frosch123>Alberth: anyway, when working remote over 10000 km, you can easily return to the pre-x11 era
10:34<@planetmaker>ah, there it is. Alberth, you clearly come from a time where the left column prevailed:
10:35<frosch123>who added the last row to that image?
10:36<frosch123>it's misaligned
10:36<frosch123>added later on
10:36<@Alberth>frosch123: "ssh remote" to a server on the LAN without X11 apps is sufficient :)
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12:50<Eddi|zuHause><frosch123> maybe it was borland pascal 7 <-- afair pascal 7 had around 11 disks. and delphi 2 something around 16, but i'm not sure about that
12:51<frosch123>delphi 2 was a cd for me
12:51<Eddi|zuHause>the largest i ever installed from disks was win95
12:51<frosch123>was a cd as well for me :p
12:51<Eddi|zuHause>although i did have it on CD, the computer had no CD drive :)
12:52<Eddi|zuHause>so i used two disks and swapped them between the computer with the CD and the one i wanted to install
12:52<Eddi|zuHause>and these bastards made the .cab files 1.6MB large :p
12:52<Eddi|zuHause>or 1.7
12:53<frosch123>no ehd disk? :p
12:53<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, larger than windows itself would allow you to format the disk
12:53<Eddi|zuHause>i guess that was "copy protection" :)
12:54<Eddi|zuHause>well, i had a program that could format the disks this large
12:55<frosch123>oh, i remember the time when there was internet at school and we carried the downloads home on floppys
12:55<frosch123>i think we collected all disks we could get to split hl updates onto them
12:56<frosch123>though that was already the time when the floppys you could buy at stores were so bad that you could only use them one time
12:56<frosch123>before they got the first bad blocks
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13:19<Eddi|zuHause>i must have skipped that phase
13:21<Rubidium>I remember the time my school didn't have internet!
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>well, the school did have internet, ISDN i think, but i wasn't really internet-savy back then. and you had little time to "explore" things
13:23<frosch123>i think in the beginning it was only for 18+ :)
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13:23<frosch123>(resp. 11th grade up)
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13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: translators * r24430 /trunk/src/lang/finnish.txt:
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: finnish - 10 changes by jpx_
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13:48<frosch123>Sacro: the welsh translation misses 196 strings
13:48<Sacro>oh dear
13:48<Sacro>it's not like it's a proper language
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14:34<andythenorth>oh how droll
14:35<andythenorth>ok, so in some cases extra graphics are needed, but still...
14:35<andythenorth>...all those freighters are hard to tell apart in buy menu
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14:48<FLHerne>andythenorth: Perhaps you should make them look less identical :P
14:48<andythenorth>orly :P
14:49<andythenorth>I need my artist back
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>i'm fresh out of those...
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14:55<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r24431 /trunk/config.lib: -Fix: some old compilers didn't like some flag that isn't really needed anyway
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14:56<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r24432 /trunk/src/depend/depend.cpp: -Fix: compile warning in depend
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14:59<andythenorth>12 ships left to convert :P
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14:59<andythenorth>it would be nice if I could diff the FISH action 0 props nfo <-> nml
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15:07<Eddi|zuHause>that would only have been possible if you took the same config files and just switched out the preprocessor :p
15:08<andythenorth>didn't do that ;)
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15:11*andythenorth wonders what grfcodec -d would do with the action 0s...? :)
15:11<Rubidium>andythenorth: loads and loads of little numbers
15:11<andythenorth>yes indeed
15:12<andythenorth>I could read them individually to see if they match :o
15:12<andythenorth>who won the tour de france?
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15:15<Rubidium>I reckon it's the guy with that yellow jersey
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15:25<Sleepie>TrueBrain: 5 minutes ago I tried again to do some edits on the wiki, but unfortunately the situation hasn't changed and I'm still blocked :(
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15:27<frosch123>explains why noone edited the wiki today, except pm
15:28<frosch123>hmm, though pm edited without login
15:28<frosch123>oh, someone else also edited without logging in
15:29<Sleepie>well I'm unsure if it makes a difference in this case if you're logged in or not
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15:37<Sleepie>Am I the only with this problem atm or do have also reports from other users?
15:37<frosch123>noone complained
15:38<frosch123>but there as unusual few edits :)
15:39<Sleepie>maybe we should open a problem topic and a pointer to it on the main page
15:40<frosch123>well, usually complains of that type does not exactly help
15:40<frosch123>it's way better to have two guys in here who can reproduce the issue than having 10 on flyspray
15:41<Sleepie>but the few edits can also be normal, because in many countries are vacation time now
15:41<frosch123>did you edit via http or https?
15:43<Sleepie>and your point for not open a topic
15:49<TrueBrain>LordAro could edit the other day, so that is just weird
15:50<TrueBrain>I cannot find a real reason why you wouldn't be able to edit ...
15:50<TrueBrain>nor does any google search suggest this is a common issue
15:50<TrueBrain>we can clean out the blocklist, but .. dunno if that helps :)
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15:51<Sleepie>maybe a real block/unblock of my account helps :P
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15:51<Sleepie>I also did some research and couldn't find those issues reported somewhere else
15:51<Sleepie>really a mystery
15:54<Sleepie>hmm, thats really scary without being logged in I could edit
15:54<Sleepie>or did you changed something in the meantime
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15:59<Sleepie>so somehow my account must be blocked in some way, because my ip hasn't changed between the failed and successful edit
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16:04*LordAro looks up at highlight
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16:23*andythenorth is glad there aren't hovercraft or hydrofoils specifically as tankers
16:23*andythenorth has just invented 12 new ships to be tankers
16:23<andythenorth>might as well do a banana boat as well, now I've started on this
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16:23<andythenorth>moi ausso
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17:17<@Terkhen>good night
17:20<Sleepie>night Terkhen
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18:17<NGC3982>isnt it a bit odd that non-stop speed in station is not lowerd?
18:18<NGC3982>running a chimaera trough a station at 640km/h feels a bit ..unrealistic.
18:18<NGC3982>(and a bit windy for the people at the station).
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18:20<__ln__>NGC3982: shhhhhhhhhhhhh, it's not even close to bedtime in qu├ębec yet.
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18:46<Sleepie>NGC3982: shouldn't that be solvable with trackset now?
18:47<Sleepie>even such a set might exist for maglev yet :P
18:48<Sleepie>+not I meant
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18:51<Sleepie>so in station areas just build a tracktype with lower maxspeed
18:54<Sleepie>only problem might be that it is not distinguishable, because you might prefer to to have the same graphics only with other capabilities
19:01<Wolf01>'night all
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19:14<Sleepie>TrueBrain: Maybe you read this later so just for the record. Like you can see on I could make a few changes while being logged out.
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19:16<Sleepie>TrueBrain: Surprisingly I could also do another three while being logged in, but then it failed again. Regardless of being logged in or logged out. I'm sorry for being such a pain in the ass for this totally weird issue.
19:18<Sleepie>TrueBrain: For now I'll stop any editing activities until talk back to you or one of the sysops of the wiki as on how to proceed. Thanks to all for your support so far. See ya later.
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23:40<Elukka>yay kerbals
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---Logclosed Mon Jul 23 00:00:28 2012