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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-07-24

---Logopened Tue Jul 24 00:00:30 2012
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02:04<andythenorth>pipes!
02:05<Supercheese>aye
02:05<Supercheese>very kewl
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02:16<andythenorth>how the buy menu used to be: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3147/fish_buy_menu_old.png
02:17<andythenorth>improved buy menu: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3144/fish_buy_menu_7.png
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02:27*Supercheese kind of likes the old style better
02:33<@Terkhen>good morning
02:33<Supercheese>Salve, excitate
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02:56<@Alberth>ho, more uncoded sprites
03:09<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i think you should cut the sprites off at the front, not at the end
03:09<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: or alternatively, use zoomed-out sprites
03:13<NGC3982>zoomed out feels preferable to sprites being cut-off.
03:13<NGC3982>as long as it doesnt look wierd
03:13<NGC3982>completely out of context
03:14<__ln__>good @343 everyone!
03:14<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: english only!
03:16<NGC3982>__ln__: @343?
03:16<__ln__>good @343/1.609 everyone!
03:17<__ln__>NGC3982: the current timezone-agnostic timestamp.
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03:18<andythenorth>zoomed out was tried before for 2CC ship set, looks truly terrible
03:19<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: there is a trivial alternative solution
03:20<andythenorth>as I compile nml -> nfo anyway, I could just use a string replacement step in my build to insert setx
03:20<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i think in CETS i just used spaces
03:20<Eddi|zuHause>which is problematic with font sizes
03:20<__ln__>NGC3982: http://www.swatch.com/zz_en/internettime/
03:20<andythenorth>spaces also fails for other places the name string is used
03:20<andythenorth>spaces was my first solution :)
03:20<Eddi|zuHause>the difference is that i don't need so many :)
03:21<andythenorth>yup
03:21<andythenorth>hmm
03:22<andythenorth>so is setx deprecated or not?
03:22<NGC3982>__ln__: ah, i see.
03:22<andythenorth>or is it in deprecated-but-legacy-support-will-be-maintained limbo land?
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03:26<Eddi|zuHause>the latter i think
03:26<Eddi|zuHause>everybody knows it's known to break, but nobody dares remove it
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03:35<andythenorth>so deprecated but not deprecated :P
03:35<andythenorth>if buy menu width was solved automatically, we would remove it though
03:35<andythenorth>I imagine
03:35*NGC3982 reads decapitated.
03:35<andythenorth>same thing
03:36<andythenorth>let's decapitate setx
03:44*andythenorth sanitises FISH code a bit
03:45<NGC3982>andythenorth: i must say, i admire your constant work with this.
03:45<andythenorth>yes, I'm doing very well
03:45<andythenorth>so far I have a more broken set with fewer vehicles in
03:45<andythenorth>and probably lots of new bugs
03:45<NGC3982>ah, i see.
03:46<NGC3982>bugs are made for eating
03:46<@planetmaker>andythenorth, I'd consider setx deprecated. For now it will be supported for hysterical raisins. But... you never know ;-)
03:46<NGC3982>(yes, im from that kind of country)
03:46<@planetmaker>NewGRF specs don't change as fast as Apple APIs ;-)
03:46<@planetmaker>(but faster than windows APIs are removed)
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03:47<andythenorth>if someone actually fixed buy menu, setx could go. newgrf author complaints could be ignored
03:47<andythenorth>but fixing it seems to be hard
03:50<@peter1138>fixed?
03:50<@peter1138>if you didn't draw sprites too big...?
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03:54<andythenorth>yes
03:54<andythenorth>eeez too big
03:56<andythenorth>so...a smallish fast tanker which also refits passengers / mail?
03:56<andythenorth>for island trading?
03:56<andythenorth>mostly I think tankers don't refit pax
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04:00<@Terkhen>neither do I
04:02<@peter1138>ships need that multiple cargos thing
04:02<@peter1138>without hiding it in articulation or shadows, heh
04:03*andythenorth requests not :)
04:03<andythenorth>that would mean redesigning FISH again
04:03<andythenorth>which I'm just doing now
04:03<andythenorth>this is only the third redesign of the set though
04:03<andythenorth>another is probably fine :P
04:05<andythenorth>actually....might be fine
04:05<andythenorth>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1583/
04:05<andythenorth>I just use those props
04:05-!-DiAbL0 [~chatzilla@122-61-157-205.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #openttd
04:05<andythenorth>and refit/autorefit subdivides the amount for cargo_holds and tanks as required
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04:07<NGC3982>this will make a fine day
04:08<NGC3982>im the only supervisor
04:08<NGC3982>and there are four customer service teams, and 62 salesmen here today.
04:08<NGC3982>no time for ttd. :(
04:15<Eddi|zuHause>you wanted to quit cold turkey! [where the hell does this expression come from?]
04:24<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: can you test www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/resize_purchase_list.diff for me (initial somewhat hacky stuff)
04:24<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: it's odd.
04:24<andythenorth>yup
04:25<NGC3982>"A narrowing of the meaning "suddenly or without preparation," from cold turkey being a dish that requires little preparation; originally used for heroin addicts.[7]"
04:25<NGC3982>sounds fairly logical
04:26<NGC3982>and: "
04:26<NGC3982>and: "From the American phrase talk turkey meaning "to speak bluntly with little preparation"*
04:26*andythenorth needs a list of sea areas for asia pacific
04:26<Eddi|zuHause>but isn't "cold turkey" more like "leftovers from yesterday"?
04:28<NGC3982>"Reference to the periods after Christmas and Thanksgiving holidays where cold (leftover) turkey was likely to be eaten, coinciding with the end of those holidays' characteristically high alcohol consumption. [10]"
04:28<NGC3982>so, it seems.
04:28<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: patch: **** Only garbage was found in the patch input.
04:29<andythenorth>oh
04:29<andythenorth>no www
04:29<andythenorth>nvm
04:29<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: curl -L
04:30<Eddi|zuHause>we talked about this :p
04:30<andythenorth>it's built ;)
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04:31<LordAro>how's this? http://wiki.openttd.org/OpenTTDDevBlackBook/Window/UseWindows
04:31<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: looks like it will work for ships; haven't tested other types
04:31<andythenorth>ah
04:31<andythenorth>rvs got very wide :P
04:32<andythenorth>also...I don't have a way to test RTL lang
04:34<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: just select a language?
04:34<andythenorth>who has RTL? Arabic?
04:34<andythenorth>yup
04:35<Eddi|zuHause>hm... that may need some debugging... looks like all vehicle types now got the max width
04:35<andythenorth>yup
04:35*andythenorth considers translations for FISH
04:36<andythenorth>most of the ship names are drawn from sea area names
04:36<andythenorth>in europe / north america
04:36*Terkhen would be able to do it this weekend
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04:36<Eddi|zuHause>oh right that may be my fuckup...
04:36<@Terkhen>I probably would not translate model names though
04:37<Eddi|zuHause>used max instead of min
04:37<andythenorth>Terkhen: probably right :P
04:37<andythenorth>it just amuses me as an idea
04:37<andythenorth>localisation of the model name might be valid for ships
04:38<@Terkhen>if some of them still have generic names then yes
04:38<andythenorth>they don't really
04:39<andythenorth>also, metareas don't seem to be interestingly named outside of eu/na
04:39<andythenorth>e.g. India has "http://weather.gmdss.org/VII.html", which is unromantic :P
04:40<andythenorth>ho
04:40<andythenorth>Hong Kong has some http://www.hko.gov.hk/wservice/tsheet/pms/images/marine_map.gif
04:40<andythenorth>that's good
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04:41<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: can you reload the diff?
04:42<andythenorth>k
04:42<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: vehicle names cannot be translated
04:42<andythenorth>k
04:42<andythenorth>nvm
04:42<andythenorth>silly idea :P
04:42<andythenorth>russian metareas http://www.wmo.int/pages/prog/www/ois/Operational_Information/VolumeD/GMDSS/Metarea13/Metarea13_FcstAreas_S.jpg
04:42<Eddi|zuHause>hm, actually, they can
04:43<andythenorth>that can't be *all* russian metarea names :P
04:43<@Alberth>LordAro: WWT_LAST and _MASK should not be there, the quote in 'Flags' is obsolete, and the other values belong to only one widget, they are not general
04:43<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: all vehicles still taking width of widest
04:43<andythenorth>for all vehicle types
04:44<LordAro>it was a work in progress :L
04:44<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: does the north germanic languages use 'cold turkey' (except sweden, wish doesnt)?
04:44<LordAro>but noted, will do so
04:44<Eddi|zuHause>*mental note* actually upload the file
04:44<andythenorth>there's no way curl would have cached the diff, yes / no?
04:44<andythenorth>:P
04:44<NGC3982>or west, for that matter
04:44<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: i haven't heard that expression in german
04:45*andythenorth discovers a goldmine of metarea names
04:45<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: try again
04:46<Eddi|zuHause>there's a penetrant *miau* coming from the side...
04:48<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: now back to default widths, except with some padding gone ;)
04:48<andythenorth>unless...
04:49<andythenorth>my sprites are cropped
04:49<andythenorth>1 min
04:49<Eddi|zuHause>hm... that's weird
04:49<andythenorth>yup
04:49<andythenorth>my sprites were cropped
04:50<andythenorth>my grf is setup to crop to 70px atm
04:50<Eddi|zuHause>please try with different crop values
04:51<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3149/buy_menu_test.png
04:51<andythenorth>that's with 140px
04:51<andythenorth>some of the oddities relate to my bounding box + offsets
04:52<andythenorth>let me try adjusting those
04:52<andythenorth>this will take a few mins
04:52<Eddi|zuHause>drawing offset may be wrong
04:52<andythenorth>suspect it is
04:52<NGC3982>i really like the design on those ships
04:53<NGC3982>looks fantastic
04:53<andythenorth>if I use -70px for my x_offs
04:53<andythenorth>I get this:
04:53<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3150/buy_menu_test_2.png
04:53<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: are all ships the same size?
04:53<andythenorth>no
04:53<Eddi|zuHause>or are the top ones shorter?
04:54<andythenorth>yes, they're 70px
04:54<andythenorth>I'd need to change a few more things to get a wholly valid test
04:54<andythenorth>e.g. I have white px etc
04:54<andythenorth>I suspect it basically works though
04:54<Eddi|zuHause>so the width is correct then, just your offsets are skewed because of the previous work to un-center them
04:55<andythenorth>yes
04:55<andythenorth>I think you have a 70px drawing offset issue
04:55<andythenorth>and you might want some few px padding x before text starts drawing
04:56<andythenorth>also, we might want 1px padding between edge of buy menu and start of sprite
04:56<andythenorth>actually 2px, according to default sprites
04:57<andythenorth>relying on authors to set that is...dubious
04:57<andythenorth>oh, can't do that, it will change default sprites :P
04:59<andythenorth>oh Angola, the romance of the high seas, with the exciting metarea name "Zone III"
04:59<andythenorth>if you're not British, you may have no idea why this is such a big deal
04:59<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shipping_Forecast
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05:04<Eddi|zuHause>http://users.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Hawthorn%20&%20Co.,%2014.%20Feb%202014.png <-- not sure why this is so wide
05:04<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: what's the xofs on your buy menu sprite?
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05:05<Eddi|zuHause>you ask questions... :)
05:06<Eddi|zuHause>sprite picker says -16
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05:07<andythenorth>I think it's -33
05:07<andythenorth>at a guess
05:10<Eddi|zuHause>well ideally this would work without changing the grf
05:11<andythenorth>+1
05:11<andythenorth>if it works transparently, we can deprecate setx
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05:31<@planetmaker>moin
05:31<andythenorth>hi planetmaker
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06:02<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i can't think of any way to properly adapt to GRFs that made hacky stuff to circumvent the old left border of the window
06:03<andythenorth>break them?
06:03<Eddi|zuHause>well, it'll not be "broken", just it will have a larger gap on the left
06:03<andythenorth>stuff happens
06:04<Eddi|zuHause>but on the whole i deem this patch "working" now, just needs a little code cleanup
06:04<Eddi|zuHause>and a decision on minimum/maximum sizes
06:04<Eddi|zuHause>and the padding that we talked about
06:10<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, which patch?
06:11<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/resize_purchase_list.diff
06:15<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: largest ships in FISH are 139px – view
06:15<andythenorth>and they are known to clip
06:15<andythenorth>in old FISH I had width of...
06:15<@planetmaker>tbh, I like the idea to use the sprite size within a clamp
06:16<@planetmaker>even if breaking old newgrfs with setx somewhat
06:16<andythenorth>old FISH used max 118px with crop
06:16<andythenorth>(crop if larger)
06:16<andythenorth>anything bigger gets unpleasant
06:17<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, you might then at the same time as subsequent patch add the removal (ignore) of setx
06:24<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: there's no reason why that person must be me
06:24<@Alberth>Hirundo: nml is way too fast now, I can't even finish my coffee ;)
06:26<@Alberth>ie 'good job' :)
06:28<andythenorth>nml is fast? :o
06:28<andythenorth>ho
06:28<andythenorth>new commits
06:28<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: how does this affect CETS before my speed pitfall avoidance patches? (r548/549)?
06:29<Eddi|zuHause>and r660
06:30<andythenorth>:P FISH is same speed with new nml
06:30<andythenorth>I guess nml -> nfo builds don't benefit so much :)
06:30<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: sorry, I don't understand that question
06:31<@Alberth>andythenorth: nope, it caches generated sprites, so the second and further runs benefit
06:31<andythenorth>is the caching affected by a make clean? Or is it internal to nml?
06:31<Hirundo>It saves stuff in *.grf.cache[index]
06:31<@Alberth>you get two extra cache files
06:32<Hirundo>So it depends on what your make clean does
06:32<Eddi|zuHause>one would expect make clean to remove those files
06:32<@Alberth>andythenorth: and you can unignore parsetab.py :)
06:34<Hirundo>I'm still trying to make writing sprites (esp. uncompressed with -u) significantly faster
06:35<Hirundo>With compression enabled LZ77 remains the major timesink, while I can tinker a bit with it I don't know how to get an order-of-magnitude improvement there
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06:36<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: i isolated 3 separate (avoidable) speed issues in nml, which i handled with CETS commits r548 (separate run for creating deps), r549 (encoding sprites) and r660 (evaluating larger expressions in templates)
06:37<Eddi|zuHause>the one thing that i couldn't avoid was parsing the nml file ;)
06:37<@Alberth>ok, well, I have no clue about them
06:38<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: well, i was mainly asking which of those are affected by the recent changes, and how that changes the before/after time
06:39<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: I don't know, I am only working on zbase{,build}, Hirundo did all the speedup work
06:39<Eddi|zuHause>actually, i could probably build a parse tree in my generator script and pass that directly to nml ;)
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06:40<@Alberth>you can also directly write grf bytes, much faster :p
06:40<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: wrt padding between sprite and name, I suggest 2px
06:40<andythenorth>based on default game
06:42<Hirundo>NML should have a lisp-like syntax, so you can easily build parse trees
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06:42<Hirundo>And then write more lisp to generate the lisp for you
06:42<andythenorth>write lisp to write the lisp to generate the lisp
06:43<andythenorth>write a lisp AI to do all of the above for you
06:43<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: welcome to higher level functions ;)
06:43<Hirundo>"Any sufficiently complicated C or Fortran program contains an ad hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of half of Common Lisp."
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06:48<@Alberth>Hirundo: obviously, you should use xml instead
06:49<Hirundo><vehicle><speed>100</speed></vehicle> looks okay-ish
06:50<Hirundo><sprite><xpos>10</xpos><ypos>20</ypos> .... less so :-)
06:51*andythenorth could work that way :P
06:51<andythenorth>it's all just an intermediate format to me
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08:43<andythenorth>tra la la
08:43*andythenorth has added tankers to FISH
08:44<andythenorth>they're almost same as equivalent coaster, but capacity is higher
08:44<@planetmaker>\^o^/
08:44<telanus>cool
08:44<andythenorth>maybe loading speed should be higher
08:44<andythenorth>but loading speed is a 'meh' thing anyway
08:44*telanus wonder if more hovercrafts will get added
08:44<andythenorth>telanus: yes, there are some renders that need shading
08:44<andythenorth>at least two, maybe three
08:45<NGC3982>to FISH?
08:46-!-Stimrol [~Stimrol@dsl-149-87-36.hive.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
08:46<andythenorth>yes
08:47<@Terkhen>:D
08:47<andythenorth>gah
08:47<andythenorth>model life
08:47<andythenorth>what's this 'retire early' thing?
08:47<andythenorth>I've never understood it
08:55*NGC3982 wouldnt mind, thats for sure.
08:55<NGC3982>shore/såaré/sauron.
08:55*Pinkbeast would not say no to a job to retire from.
08:55<andythenorth>not quite the answer I was looking for :P
08:56<andythenorth>if jobs are so scarce, why do I know so many people who can't hire?
08:56<andythenorth>are we building a world which needs skills that can't be supplied?
08:56<Pinkbeast>I'd have one by now if I was willing to fly, realistically, so it's my own lookout
08:57<andythenorth>my twitter feed is mostly just people looking for developers, account managers, salespeople, social media people, marketers etc
08:58<NGC3982>this is actually something that puzzles me
08:58<Pinkbeast>UNIX systems administrators? :-/
08:58<NGC3982>most of you are clearly active with serious ttd word on daily basis
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08:59<NGC3982>wich makes me think most of you work more on this then with an actual job
08:59<NGC3982>is that the case?
09:00<NGC3982>since, the thing is, if i was to finance a rocket-science-developer-coding-cosmology project, id' know where to turn. :p
09:00<andythenorth>Pinkbeast: where are you (approximate continent)?
09:00<Pinkbeast>NGC: ... presumably "not to people who work more on openTTD than their actual jobs". :-)
09:00<__ln__>too bad the only rocket scientist isn't here actively anymore
09:01<Pinkbeast>Approximately Cambridge, UK
09:01<andythenorth>hmm
09:01<NGC3982>Pinkbeast: ;)
09:01<NGC3982>jobs are never hard to find.
09:01<@Belugas>hello
09:01*andythenorth is the proud owner of a kanban backlog full of sysadmin tasks :P
09:01<NGC3982>Belugas: nooner's!
09:02<@Belugas>[09:00] <NGC3982> Belugas: nooner's!
09:02<@Belugas>not exactly...
09:02<andythenorth>Pinkbeast: got commercial experience? :P
09:02<NGC3982>Belugas: well, sorry. it's a bit hard to track individual planetary rotation out here i deep space.
09:03<Pinkbeast>Contracting, no, but I did leave... uh, let's say a very large databse firm that begins with an O after a decade, last year.
09:03*andythenorth is currently in the unusual situation of having more money than developers temporarily
09:03<andythenorth>which also implies more work than developers to do it
09:03<andythenorth>this is not the common case for the last 4 years or so :P
09:04<@Alberth>moin Belugas
09:04<andythenorth>what I really need is a sysadmin in Australia so other people can stop getting up at horrible times for pingdom
09:04<Pinkbeast>3 years in academia before that, 1 year at a small ISP, and now you know how old I am. I do fail the "in Australia" criterion by about as much as is possible, though.
09:04<andythenorth>yeah
09:05<andythenorth>I am, globally speaking, in the same place as you :P
09:05<andythenorth>near enough
09:05<@planetmaker>Pinkbeast, but if you would fly... :-P
09:05<Eddi|zuHause><planetmaker> \^o^/ <-- batman costumes are forbidden!
09:05<Pinkbeast>planetmaker: I still wouldn't go and live in Australia. :-)
09:05<andythenorth>NGC3982: to answer your earlier question, I have plenty of work
09:05<andythenorth>I'm just sick today
09:05<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, not where we live. Luckily :-)
09:05<NGC3982>andythenorth: ah, i see.
09:05<@planetmaker>Pinkbeast, no worries mate ;-) But it's a nice place
09:06*NGC3982 works way to much..
09:06<andythenorth>maybe pikka can do sysadmin? :P
09:06<andythenorth>wtf is pikka anyway?
09:06<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I need to understand this silly 'retire early' thing for vehicles
09:06<@planetmaker>he used to drive busses. But now...? Haven't heart of him lately
09:06<andythenorth>or rather, I need an implmentation
09:06<NGC3982>i could use a coder, a sysadmin, a cisco-mo-man and a new staff of customer service bosses.
09:06<NGC3982>please bring.
09:06<NGC3982>:<
09:06<Pinkbeast>planet: It may well be but all the native wildlife is utterly deadly (and more seriously, everyone I know, including my Aussie ex, lives here).
09:07<@planetmaker>you care about your ex? Peculiar
09:07*NGC3982 wildlife is utter boredom.
09:07<Pinkbeast>We get on well enough, yeah - I think other than my first girlfriend, who's vanished, I get on with all of mine these days.
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: retire early ~= vehicle lifetime; model lifetime ~= purchase availability + vehicle lifetime
09:09<@planetmaker>https://picasaweb.google.com/107191069901530811927/Beobachtungen#5764059781535090962 <-- I disagree, NGC3982 ;-)
09:11<NGC3982>planetmaker: yey!
09:11<NGC3982>planetmaker: did you know, your name is fantastic in sweden.
09:11<@planetmaker>I didn't
09:12<@planetmaker>and don't. Why?
09:12<andythenorth>these big boats look *so* stupid in rivers :P
09:12<NGC3982>ingo is a legendary (chubby) boxer, and borstel is sort of ..an eletrocuted broom.
09:12<NGC3982>planaet: where are these pictures taken?
09:13<@planetmaker>The one I linked is taken in Bremen
09:14<@planetmaker>But it varies. Whereever I am ;-)
09:14<NGC3982>:)
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09:21<andythenorth>don't tell pikka
09:21<andythenorth>but I think UKRS 1 is cuter than UKRS 2
09:22<andythenorth>due to larger size
09:22*Pinkbeast ... yes. But I guess if it wasn't to look daft next to NARS...
09:23<Pinkbeast>Also (although this isn't his fault, since it's mostly the addon sets) UKRS2 has this confusion between "this is a generic locomotive representing most big 4-6-0 mixed traffic types" and "here is a separate model for each big Pacific"
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09:24<Pinkbeast>Also, hello, 2cc livestock cars. :-/
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09:27<NGC3982>wat, there is a ukrs1?
09:27<NGC3982>oh.
09:27<NGC3982>im playing it
09:27<Pinkbeast>Tee hee. :-)
09:28<NGC3982>i always thought the 2 was the addon
09:29*Pinkbeast looks at the comparison picture on PikkaWiki but is biassed by the way the UKRS2 A4 has no side skirts as any sane person would favour
09:29<Pinkbeast>NGC: Perhaps you should be asking, what, there's an UKRS2?
09:30<andythenorth>UKRS 2 is too squinty for my old eyes
09:30<Pinkbeast>Don't play at 1600xlots? Seriously, I've been deliberately lowering the resolution - it's a pain when I want six stations and four trains' windows open, but it looks better in a way.
09:31<andythenorth>I can't change res
09:31<@planetmaker>zoom in ;-)
09:31<Pinkbeast>Awkward laptop display?
09:31<NGC3982>Pinkbeast: ;)
09:31<@planetmaker>2x makes for a good default view actually IMHO
09:31<NGC3982>you people have way to few monitors.
09:31<NGC3982>:D
09:32<Pinkbeast>Yes, NGC, there is an UKRS2. You can start in 1830 or so with 2-2-2 Planets if you like. And don't want to move any cargo until 1844.
09:33<andythenorth>actually laptop display does change res
09:33*andythenorth tested
09:33<NGC3982>Pinkbeast: im playing it on my server right now, and have been playing it for six months or something.
09:33<NGC3982>Pinkbeast: i have simply never seen the "2".
09:33<NGC3982>:p
09:33*Pinkbeast winces deeply every time he sees an old 4:3 game stretched to 16:9, but as far as I can tell 90% of humanity are totally oblivious to aspect ratio issues.
09:33<NGC3982>176.10.235.187:3979, btw.
09:34<NGC3982>Pinkbeast: that depends. playing a game in stretched to 16:9 can be more comfortable then playing 4:3, even if quality suffers.
09:34<Pinkbeast>Ah. Sorry. If you'd like me to tell you anything else you already know, just say. :-(
09:35<Pinkbeast>more comfortable - if, unlike me, you do not wince deeply every time you look at it.
09:35<NGC3982>true
09:35<NGC3982>i usually dont mind
09:35<NGC3982>at least with the games i tried it with. zeus, aoe, settlers, and so on.
09:35*Pinkbeast wants a device like TV-Be-Gone except instead of "Off" it sends "Change aspect ratio" for all makes of TV.
09:35<Pinkbeast>Have you seen Widelands?
09:35<NGC3982>niet.
09:36<Pinkbeast>It's a Free Settlers 2 clone, and - like OTTD - is past the original by now (except that the single-player is woefully short)
09:36<NGC3982>:O
09:36<NGC3982>why do i miss these things
09:36<NGC3982>Pinkbeast: thank you, ill try it.
09:36<andythenorth>I should play 800x500
09:37<andythenorth>it makes the gui way more usable
09:37<andythenorth>and makes me less annoyed
09:37<NGC3982>;)
09:37<Pinkbeast>The big change is setting quotas for wares, so you don't have to micromanage turning workshops on and off.
09:37<andythenorth>I think I don't play the game much because it hurts my eyes
09:37<andythenorth>but I can't play 800x500 unless I play full screen
09:37<andythenorth>and full screen sucks for newgrf dev
09:37<Pinkbeast>Oh, and military control is first-come-first-served; you can't push someone's borders back without attacking.
09:38<NGC3982>andythenorth: surely, multiple screens is the choice for grf development?
09:38<Pinkbeast>Multiple monitors may be the answer (he says, sitting at a single 21" tube)
09:38<NGC3982>-the choice + the better choice.
09:39<NGC3982>Pinkbeast: my god.
09:39<andythenorth>yeah, multiple screens would be the way forward
09:39<Pinkbeast>Hey, it still works. And in winter it's not so much of a liability. :-)
09:39<andythenorth>do you have a portable, battery powered screen?
09:39<Pinkbeast>Plus if chavs break in they're not going to nick it. :-)
09:39<andythenorth>that I can carry along with a laptop and a toddler?
09:40<NGC3982>andythenorth: :)
09:40<Pinkbeast>Wait, Andy, you've got a job _and_ a child _and_ you crank out OTTD stuff? Do you ever sleep?
09:40*NGC3982 is never going to have kids.
09:41<NGC3982>Pinkbeast: no, he doesnt. observing andy's IRC habits, ill say he's on heroin or something.
09:41*Pinkbeast is much fonder of the 19" low-footprint tube in the other room, but this one is... bigger.
09:41<NGC3982>or, he has stumbled upon some kind of time dilation mechanism we don't know about
09:41<Pinkbeast>Don't say "never" have kids until you've got your tubes safely tied. Trust me, I have. :-)
09:41<NGC3982>Pinkbeast: for god sake, the power costs of a tube monitor is higher then the cost of a new (bloody) flat monitor.
09:42<NGC3982>i lost my "tubes" in an electrical accident a few years ago
09:42<Pinkbeast>Ouch!
09:42<NGC3982>so yes, im sure (and a bit more).
09:42<Pinkbeast>Oh, bad luck, I assumed you were describing a voluntary state of affairs. Remove foot from mouth, etc.
09:42<__ln__>NGC3982: i don't think "tubes" consume significantly more electricity than flats
09:42<NGC3982>Pinkbeast: harr. :>
09:43<NGC3982>__ln__: ;)
09:43<__ln__>NGC3982: something around ~70-80 watts both.
09:43<Pinkbeast>Also this flat's quite cool and I'm quite nocturnal - for at least some of the year, it's that or burn gas heating the spodroom, although I'm quite resistant to having the heating on as a rule.
09:43*andythenorth has learnt to function adequately on limited sleep
09:43<__ln__>led might make a difference.
09:44<NGC3982>this was a newspaper stacker machine, with 64A three phase connection.
09:44<NGC3982>i was to adjust a motor switch and used the wrong tool.
09:44<NGC3982>dumb and young, as i was.
09:44<NGC3982>s/connection/connections/
09:45<Pinkbeast>Christ, I'm glad the worst I ever got from that kind of thing was a titanium plate in my jaw.
09:45<NGC3982>oh, that's awesome!?
09:45<NGC3982>:D
09:45<NGC3982>Pinkjaws
09:45<Pinkbeast>Well, at least it'll be hard to break it again. Assuming I remember to hit the ground with the left-hand side of my face next time.
09:47<Pinkbeast>I remember the moment at the top of the arc when I thought "oh, shit, here we go" as being quite long, but I think that's entirely retroactive memory.
09:47<NGC3982>"top of the arc"?
09:48<NGC3982>yes, moments like that seems to go on forever
09:48<Pinkbeast>I was climbing over a fence and gave myself a boost up of excessive force
09:48<NGC3982>but it's a memory thing.
09:48<NGC3982>ah, i see.
09:48<Pinkbeast>So basically I faceplanted from standing on something about 4' off the ground. "I know, I'll bounce off that broad flat surface and be in a lot of pain."
09:49<NGC3982>ouch.
09:50<NGC3982>i dont remember any pain at all, wish is a bit nice.
09:50<NGC3982>i went to work, everything went black, i woke up three weeks later.
09:50<Pinkbeast>Well, predictably, it didn't really hurt a great deal until I'd dealt with picking self up, picking bicycle up, getting to road, calling ambulance, etc. Adrenalin.
09:50<NGC3982>filled with painkillers
09:50<NGC3982>ah, yes indeed.
09:51*Pinkbeast thinks back... I was still doing pretty well when the ambulance turned up; I waved enthusiastically at them from the other side of the road, and they pull up. "Where's the patient?"
09:51<NGC3982>oh
09:51<NGC3982>:D
09:51<NGC3982>it's funny how the mind can react to serious accidents
09:51<Pinkbeast>"Ah", I say (yes, I am wordy enough, I will talk with a broken jaw), "I have some news for you." At this point I infer that they notice that I'm covered in blood.
09:52<NGC3982>oh
09:52<NGC3982>oh my
09:52<NGC3982>i had this employee who took a fall in a marble stairway at the office
09:52<Pinkbeast>Ambulancemen are _delighted_ to get a patient at 0300 on Sunday who is not blind drunk, it turns out. :-)
09:53<NGC3982>he broke several ribs, the nose, blood everywhere, a concusion from seattle and back and constant bleeding from the ear. we was i such a chock he tried to manicly get back to work
09:53<NGC3982>Pinkbeast: haha, i guess.
09:53<Pinkbeast>That does sound excessively persistent.
09:54<Pinkbeast>I've done a rib and it was way worse than the jaw - you spend a month telling people not to make you laugh.
09:56<NGC3982>:(
09:57<Pinkbeast>Basically with the jaw you eat mush for a month and that's it, job done, back to normal except you can't eat apples for months
09:58<Pinkbeast>I did the rib in a bicycle prang, incidentally, just to introduce the tiniest sliver of transport relevance
10:01<NGC3982>:(
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10:01<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: so for a ship with vehicle life 45 years, introduced in 1870
10:02<andythenorth>what should retire early prop be?
10:02<andythenorth>next equivalent model is introduced ~1904
10:03<Eddi|zuHause>so vehicle life = 45, early retire = 45, model life = 1904-1870 + 45
10:03<Eddi|zuHause>and a magic +4 somewhere
10:03<Eddi|zuHause>which i have to look up
10:04<Eddi|zuHause>early retire = 45-4
10:04*andythenorth will code that
10:04<Eddi|zuHause>assume to sprinkle in magic +1 or +2 for some overlap
10:05<Eddi|zuHause>that depends on playtesting
10:05<Eddi|zuHause>which nobody really did with CETs
10:05<Eddi|zuHause>or i didn't get feedback
10:05<Eddi|zuHause>or i ignored it
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10:27<NGC3982>guys, im noticing a lot of the english-to-swedish translation stuff is faulty with FIRS.
10:27<NGC3982>where do i turn to help out?
10:27<NGC3982>the forums?
10:28<Eddi|zuHause>yes
10:28<Eddi|zuHause>newgrf development
10:30<@planetmaker>NGC3982, see also http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/nightlies/LATEST/log/lang-swedish.lng.log and get the files from http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/show/lang
10:30<@planetmaker>then post the updated language file in the forums. or open a ticket at FIRS issue tracker
10:37<NGC3982>ill do it, thank you.
10:37<NGC3982>for some reason, 40% of the industries are translated.
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10:50<@Alberth>there is no infra structure to warn translators for out-of-date translations
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11:27<+glx>Alberth: strings needing validation ?
11:30<@Alberth>devzone does generate such output, except it is hidden somewhat. Apparently it is not enough, or the process of changing strings is too cumbersome, or both.
11:30<@Alberth>For me personally, I'd like to have a web-page that shows what newgrfs need new strings
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11:57<@Alberth>hi hi
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12:06<frosch123>hai albert :)
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12:37<@Terkhen>the devzone script is a hack :P
12:38<@Alberth>I have a so much more beautiful script, but it's not used :(
12:39<@Alberth>but even then, the information is hard to get imho
12:42<@Terkhen>link? :)
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13:15*telanus is translating FIRS into Afrikaans
13:25<@Terkhen>andythenorth: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=61644 <--- one of your ponies
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13:39<Hirundo>michi_cc: Wrt. http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/4046, NML now caches real sprites, so the encoding is done only once but the filesize remains the same
13:41<linux_probe> /topic
13:41<linux_probe>whoops
13:41<andythenorth>Terkhen: yup
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13:44<+michi_cc>Hirundo: Under the assumption that "finished" GRFs usually don't contain many duplicate sprites there's probably not much use for it. I can think of a minor use case though, if, for whatever reason, you want the same sprites in a spriteset and a replace(new) block (maybe e.g. a railtype GRF, change signals just for this railtype or change the default signals).
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: translators * r24434 /trunk/src/lang/ (afrikaans.txt french.txt):
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: afrikaans - 14 changes by telanus
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: french - 6 changes by glx
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: he meant "cached between builds", so if you change code, the sprite encoding is skipped
13:57<Hirundo>The cache also caches identical sprites in a single build
14:00<Hirundo>michi_cc: I added your use case and my POV to the issue
14:00<@Alberth>it's not entirely the same I think. You cache based on input data, michi re-uses based on encoded sprites
14:01<@Alberth>ie when I duplicate a .png and use both, you have it twice in the cache, while it can be re-used
14:16*telanus is 60% finished translating FIRS :D
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14:18<andythenorth>hmm
14:19*andythenorth has discovered that OS X spaces (window manager thing, idea stolen from other *nix OSes) handles different screen resolutions ok
14:20<andythenorth>oh no
14:20<andythenorth>it's openttd that's doing the right thing
14:20<andythenorth>nvm
14:20<@Alberth>:)
14:20<andythenorth>anyway, andythenorth can play lower res openttd
14:21<andythenorth>which is considerably better as a thing to do
14:21<andythenorth>1280x800 sucks a bit
14:21<andythenorth>800x500 much nicer
14:26*telanus always play at 1600x900
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15:23<Sleepie>hello
15:26<@Alberth>hi
15:27*NGC3982 is so full
15:30<Sleepie>NGC3982: ?
15:30<NGC3982>of food.
15:30<Sleepie>ah
15:30<NGC3982>galaxies need a lot of energy, you know.
15:31<Sleepie>I see ;)
15:31<frosch123>are you at least making some planets from time to time?
15:34<Sleepie>maybe just black holes :P
15:34<telanus>what's a "Smithy Forge"
15:36<NGC3982>frosch123: my digestive systems create quite a few.
15:36<NGC3982>although, its mostly gas.
15:45<Eddi|zuHause>telanus: a forge melts the metal and a smith forms molten metal, thus a smithy forge is a mixture of both
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>or something like that
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>might as well be a word that andythenorth made up :p
15:47<telanus>ok thanx
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>telanus: anyway it's a less technologically advanced predecessor of the steel mill
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>for the pre-industrial economy of FIRS
15:50<telanus>OK
15:51<@Belugas>too much Deathmole on the system, i got really aggressive with my boss
15:51<@Belugas>bad bad bad
15:52<frosch123>night
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15:53<telanus>I've only got the STR_EXTRA to translate for FIRS (30 lines), When I finish tommorow, where on the forum must I upload it?
15:55<andythenorth>smithy forge
15:55<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forge
15:56<andythenorth>and why I stuck 'Smithy' in front of it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forge_(disambiguation)
15:56<andythenorth>there are other kinds of metalworking forge
15:57<andythenorth>http://www.clansmithsociety.org/CLOSEUP%20Smithy%20forge%20and%20anvil.htm
15:57<telanus>cool
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16:14<andythenorth>slow forum day
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16:51<andythenorth>so
16:52<andythenorth>a ship introduced in 1870, with vehicle life 45 years
16:52<andythenorth>when should it expire?
16:52<andythenorth>model life is 34 years
16:52<andythenorth>oops
16:52<andythenorth>model life is 79 years
16:52<andythenorth>'retire early' is 41 years
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16:53<andythenorth>ship is still available in 2070
16:54<Sleepie>79 years sounds a bit long
16:55<andythenorth>@calc 79 - 41
16:55<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 38
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16:55<andythenorth>only 38 years for model life
16:55<andythenorth>@calc 1870 + 38
16:55<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 1908
16:55<andythenorth>@calc 1908 + 17
16:55<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 1925
16:55<andythenorth>hmm
16:55<andythenorth>should be gone by 1925
16:55<andythenorth>meh
16:57<Sleepie>depends how many successors are introduced in 1925 already imho
16:58<@Terkhen>good night
16:58<Sleepie>bye Terkhen
16:59<andythenorth>gone by 1914
16:59<andythenorth>plausible
16:59<andythenorth>so also model expiry doesn't respect the date cheat :P
16:59<andythenorth>how droll
16:59<andythenorth>for those of us testing sets :P
16:59<andythenorth>fast forward on a set covering 150 years of gameplay?
16:59<Sleepie>feature request?
17:00*andythenorth needs some play testing drones :P
17:00*andythenorth never makes feature requests
17:00<andythenorth>famously
17:00<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: expiry method appears to work, on a sample size of 1 test with 1 vehicle
17:00<andythenorth>cba to test more :P
17:01<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> so also model expiry doesn't respect the date cheat :P <-- needs "resetengines" afterwards, that reinitializes also the rerandomization, so you can effectively try "multiple games"
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>but that doesn't cover prototype phases and stuff
17:02<andythenorth>don't care
17:02<andythenorth>anything to ease testing is welcome :)
17:03<andythenorth>also
17:03<andythenorth>time for me to go to bed
17:03<andythenorth>bye
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17:27<__ln__>hmm, was there a particular name for the most powerful frequency in a spectrum?
17:29<Noldo_>like if you take fourier transformation the term that has the biggest amplitude?
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17:40<__ln__>yes
17:41<__ln__>if it can even be called amplitude
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17:48<Eddi|zuHause>so a fury transformation turns you into a horse?
17:49<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: Bad idea, apparently :P : http://xkcd.com/26/
17:50<Eddi|zuHause>so there's a harmonic element in the begining, but what's that peak later on?
17:53<Eddi|zuHause>("harmonic" in this sense means frequencies of 1/2, 1/3, 1/4 and so on of the original frequency)
17:54<Eddi|zuHause>before synthesizers, it was practiaclly impossible to make an instrument that produces a true sine wave
17:54<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: harmonics usually mean rather a multiple. Than a fraction
17:54<Eddi|zuHause>yes
17:54<Eddi|zuHause>i meant wavelength
17:54<Eddi|zuHause>i'm always mixing that up :)
17:54<@planetmaker>:D
17:55<valhalla1w>__ln__: er, the dominant frequency? I cannot think of a more specific term.
17:55<valhalla1w>+ it seems to be in use by other people, which is a good check ;-)
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>so i have this tune stuck in my head... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C924eNQwRm4
17:57<Eddi|zuHause>and was wondering whether that movie is known anywhere "western"
17:57<__ln__>valhalla1w: sounds good
17:57<Eddi|zuHause>(i believe it's a czech movie. it was quite popular here)
18:02<__ln__>(doesn't look or sound familiar even though children's programmes in the 80's here contained some material from e.g. gdr and ussr)
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18:19<__ln__>i got 59% average: http://brandseenapp.com/
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---Logclosed Wed Jul 25 00:00:30 2012