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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-07-25

---Logopened Wed Jul 25 00:00:30 2012
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02:22<@Terkhen>good morning
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02:40<andythenorth>so eh what?
02:40<andythenorth>should tankers load faster than cargo ships or not?
02:41<andythenorth>cargo ships load at speed 18 currently I think
02:41<andythenorth>otherwise it takes a boringly long time
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02:46<andythenorth>tankers are ~10% higher capacity than the equivalently sized cargo vessel
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02:57<Nat_aS>honestly I just want ships to move faster
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02:59<@Terkhen>andythenorth: IMO yes
03:00<@Terkhen>hi Alberth
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03:39<andythenorth>should geared freighters load faster (they have their own cranes)
03:39*andythenorth thinks this is overthinking it :P
03:40<@planetmaker>cranes are just eye candy. In RL as in OpenTTD. Maybe :-P
03:41<@Alberth>cranes are used when the harbour has no cranes :p
03:41*andythenorth avoids pointless detail :P
03:41<andythenorth>so tankers are 10% higher cap than freighters, and load 25% faster
03:42<@planetmaker>so it be. Can always be changed if too many people find that too strange
03:42<Eddi|zuHause>(un)loading liquids very fast has issues with static electricity
03:42<@planetmaker>probably isn't strange, though
03:42<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: just needs a good ground
03:43<@Alberth>nee, vandaag!
03:44<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: are you proposing an implementation of new disasters?
03:45<andythenorth>disaster: powder / vapour explosion
03:45<andythenorth>chance varies by loading speed
03:45<Eddi|zuHause>"2 workers die from electric shock" -> 0% rating
03:46<Eddi|zuHause>(basically the same effect as vehicle crashes)
03:48<andythenorth>worker safety does drive vehicle upgrades ir
03:49<andythenorth>add 'fines for worker safety infractions' to infrastructure costs
03:50<NGC3982>andythenorth: vandaag? :)
03:51<@Alberth>lol :)
03:51<@Alberth>NGC3982: "morgen" in Dutch means 'tomorrow', 'vandaag' means 'today'
03:52<@planetmaker>in German it's nicely ambibuous. It means morning and tomorrow
03:52<NGC3982>Alberth: oh, really? i was actually under the impression that "morgen" was a used short for "good morning".
03:53<@planetmaker>in German, yes
03:53<@Alberth>NGC3982: it is, 'goedemorgen' actually
03:53<NGC3982>i see.
03:54<NGC3982>we scandinavians (at least we swedes, danes and norweigans) use 'morrn' a lot.
03:54<NGC3982>goder morgon > god morgon > morgon > morrn
03:54<NGC3982>lazier, and lazier..
03:55<@Alberth>yeah 'm' is sufficient :)
03:58<andythenorth>we could add a whole new layer of worker safety and environmental costs
03:58<andythenorth>post-2000 or so (but probably newgrf-able)
03:58<andythenorth>it would either be really interesting
03:58<andythenorth>or reeeeeeally tedious
03:58<NGC3982>for what? industries?
03:58<Supercheese>By that time, your corporation is so wealthy it doesn't have to care about environmental problems
03:58<Supercheese>just pay more money, big deal
03:59<andythenorth>make it punitive :P
03:59<Supercheese>Local authority gets mad? Bribe bribe bribe
03:59<Supercheese>also, plant trees, bulldoze, repeat
04:00<NGC3982>well, adding enviromental costs doesnt seem to be the problem.
04:00<NGC3982>you should be able to create enough difficulty that the scenario above here, isnt possible by 2000-ish (in default games)
04:00<NGC3982>at least afait. :-)
04:01<NGC3982>andythenorth: i would like that.
04:02<andythenorth>I was thinking about the 'too much money' problem
04:02<andythenorth>it's mostly a function of increased map size no?
04:02<andythenorth>original game was what, 64 x 64?
04:02*Supercheese 's wrists hurt
04:02<Supercheese>too much computer
04:02<andythenorth>number of tiles on maps scales by square law
04:03<andythenorth>so revenue per tile might be same for any map
04:03<andythenorth>but number of tiles increases geometrically
04:03<NGC3982>is revenue per tile different on different sized maps?
04:03<NGC3982>that sounds odd.
04:03<andythenorth>not per tile no
04:03<andythenorth>should be about the same
04:03<andythenorth>but more tiles....
04:03<andythenorth>many many many more tiles
04:03<andythenorth>lots more revenue
04:04<andythenorth>"too much" money
04:04<andythenorth>also games are probably longer than in TTD (1950 start)
04:04<andythenorth>and due to "the signals now actually work" we don't spend most of our time buying new trains
04:05<NGC3982>im not really following. you mean that players get differently paid in games with larger maps? or are you talking about simply making more money (since you can cover more industries and profitable distances)?
04:05<andythenorth>simply more money
04:05<andythenorth>do the maths
04:05<NGC3982>ah, i see.
04:05<NGC3982>yes, that is true.
04:05<andythenorth>say revenue per tile per year is $100
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04:05<Supercheese>Hehe, "maths", plural
04:05<andythenorth>@calc 64 * 64 * 100
04:05<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 409600
04:05<@peter1138>Yes, maths, short for mathematics.
04:05<andythenorth>@calc 1024 * 1024 * 100
04:05<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 104857600
04:05*Supercheese is an American, so "maths" sounds funny to him
04:06<@peter1138>It is 35°C in this office.
04:06<andythenorth>@calc 104857600 / 409600
04:06<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 256
04:06<NGC3982>andythenorth: yes, of course. but that also implies you having something "on the more tiles"?
04:06<@peter1138>Of course it does, Americans never get that right.
04:06<andythenorth>yup, it's not a flawless argument
04:06<NGC3982>that's a bit of a basic of company profit.
04:06<NGC3982>but yes, the default game makes this very, very easy
04:06<andythenorth>it was very hard to make money on planes in TTD, due to small map size
04:06<NGC3982>especially when you start using PBS
04:06<andythenorth>also ships were insanely hard
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04:07<NGC3982>something i have reacted on is the running cost of planes
04:07<NGC3982>wich seems to be very, very low.
04:07<Supercheese>default planes? definitely. Av8, less so
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04:08<NGC3982>Av8 is 'more' realistic (read: more expencive)
04:09<NGC3982>a solution would be to have plane running cost increase with range, maybe?
04:09<NGC3982>at least it sounds a bit realistic.
04:10<NGC3982>one and a half increase in running cost every 200 tiles or something.
04:10<andythenorth>ho ho
04:10<andythenorth>it's nice having a newgrf build framework
04:10<andythenorth>I distrust frameworks in general
04:11<andythenorth>but being able to set some values in a website, and get a grf from it with one shell command is nice
04:12<@planetmaker>yes. Problem is the required image files
04:13<@planetmaker>what I do see what could happen, andythenorth, is a web-interface for the devzone which allows uploading NML and png files to your project
04:13<@planetmaker>and that then getting build on the usual daily run with a default build rule
04:13<@planetmaker>like a restriction of "only one nml file" or so
04:14<@planetmaker>with automatic commits to the repo when you upload stuff
04:14<@planetmaker>that *is* actually feasible with text files. Image files cannot be updated sadly
04:14<@planetmaker>and no, it's not yet implemented on the devzone. It's somewhat in testing :-)
04:14<@planetmaker>hi dihedral
04:15<@planetmaker>it would be so cool, if you also could update image files... :S
04:26<NGC3982>hm, i dont understand :(
04:26<NGC3982>i fail to create a new game with a different size, only using rcon.
04:27<NGC3982>it's a config thing, not a parameter set with the newgame command?
04:30<NGC3982>it works! \o/
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06:46<telanus>OK it'
06:47<telanus>s finished
06:47<telanus> <------------ FIRS Afrikaans translation
06:49<@Alberth>oh, firs wasn't updated recently
06:50<andythenorth>FIRS is stuck again :P
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06:56*Alberth blames planetmaker for breaking the swedish language "STR_IND_lera_PIT" :)
06:56<@Alberth>afrikaans has similar problems :p
06:57<andythenorth>find and replace :)
06:59<@Alberth>blindly :)
07:00<@Alberth>andythenorth: shall I add it?
07:05<@Alberth>what target for making a .tar file?
07:05<NGC3982>haha, "lera_PIT".
07:06*NGC3982 can contribute to the swedish translation of FIRS
07:06<NGC3982>wich is francly a disaster.
07:07<@planetmaker>Alberth: make bundle_tar ?
07:08<@Alberth>telanus: freshly baked FIRS
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07:52<@planetmaker>NGC3982: many people can contribute. In the end only those who *do* contribute make the difference, though :-)
07:54<NGC3982>yes, that is true.
07:55<NGC3982>my disaster-statement wasnt serious, since i really appreciate the fact that someone made FIRS in the first place.
07:55<@planetmaker>it was more of a hint "don't talk about the possibility to improve the situation" and instead actually supply a proper translation
07:56<NGC3982>yes, exactly.
07:56<NGC3982>that's why im on the forums, browsing at the moment.
07:56<NGC3982>(and the links you put forward yesterday)
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08:11*andythenorth puts a joke into FISH
08:11<andythenorth>you won't find it :P
08:13<@planetmaker>andythenorth: where's Nemo? ;-)
08:13<NGC3982>if i understand game mechanics correctly, when starting a local game (or a dedicated server), i write a new openttd.cfg with the settings and grf's ive choosen for that particular game, right?
08:13<@planetmaker>NGC3982: no and yes. You need to modify the newgame settings. Just changing the cfg won't help you while openttd is running
08:13<NGC3982>so, if i was to (with rcon access only) start a new game (with newgame command) without the pre-chosen grfs - i need to alter the cfg first?
08:13<@planetmaker>openttd will overwrite then all changes upon exit
08:14<NGC3982>i see.
08:14<@planetmaker>you can reload the config, though
08:14<NGC3982>then, how can i alter the grf settings for a new game, with only rcon?
08:14<@planetmaker>via rcon
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08:16<NGC3982>i cant see how i can alter the cfg with rcon (and then reload it)
08:16<@planetmaker>that you can't
08:17<NGC3982>ah, i see.
08:17<@planetmaker>changing the newgrf config is impossible just via rcon, iirc
08:17<NGC3982>so starting a new game with alterned grf settings (or none at all) is not possible with only rcon access.
08:17<NGC3982>i see.
08:17<NGC3982>bah, i need to stop using windows for server related stuff.
08:17<NGC3982>SSH would be a neat thing just now. ;)
08:25<Eddi|zuHause>there's other means to upload files, even to windows servers
08:25<NGC3982>yes, but it's quirky, and i dont like it.
08:25*Alberth gives NGC3982 a Linux CD
08:26<NGC3982>my problem is also that the "server" is a HTPC
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08:45<telanus>Alberth: thank you for the build
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08:59<@Alberth>hello Belugas
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09:17<@Belugas>hello Alberth :)
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09:53<V453000>hi, is it possible to get info what settings were changed during the game from a savegame? Like which cheats were used, but with settings?
10:09<V453000>how do I extract that from the savegame?
10:09<V453000>or is it in the savegame?
10:09<Eddi|zuHause>it's a console command
10:10<Eddi|zuHause>alternatively you get it when you crash the game :p
10:10<V453000>wow amazing, thanks Eddi|zuHause !
10:12<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: you probably know the movie?
10:12<V453000>yeah sure :)
10:13<Eddi|zuHause>nobody else here knew it when i asked yesterday...
10:13<V453000>my sister even knew the complete script of it when she was like 8, that is how many times she saw it :D
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10:16<Eddi|zuHause>that i can understand :)
10:16<Eddi|zuHause>these westerners don't understand what good movies are :)
10:17<V453000>well there is for example one movie called "Mrazík" which is extremely popular in czech, but it is a russian film and russians barely know it :D
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10:17<V453000>idk what is it called in english
10:17<V453000>something like Ice man or something similar
10:17<V453000>a guy who is able to freeze anything
10:18<Eddi|zuHause>hm... these pictures don't look familiar
10:19<V453000>does the gamelog register all changes?
10:19<V453000>I changed for example station spread and it doesnt look like it is there
10:19<Eddi|zuHause>i think it does
10:20<V453000>that is really strange
10:21<V453000>same for raw industry construction setting and gradual loading that I just tried
10:21<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: is it this one?
10:22<V453000>ah yes
10:22<V453000>father frost :d
10:22<V453000>czech people watch it even nowadays
10:22<V453000>and it is always on tv on 31st december every year
10:22<Eddi|zuHause>i don't remember seing it
10:23<Eddi|zuHause>oh yes, we have one of those "always on 31st december" things as well
10:23<Eddi|zuHause>it's an english sketch called "dinner for one" (aka "the 90th birthday")
10:24<V453000>hm :) ... anyway, could the missing info from gamelog be a bug? or could I possibly be doing something wrong?
10:24<V453000>I dont feel like I could fuck up much in the process of writing a few letters into console :d
10:24<Eddi|zuHause>where a guy serves food and drinks for an old lady and her long deceased (imaginary) friends
10:24<Eddi|zuHause>and he becomes increasingly drunk, as he has to drink everything the 4 guys would drink
10:26<Eddi|zuHause>it's said to be the most repeated show in television history
10:26<Eddi|zuHause>as it is on multiple channels every year
10:26<Mazur>Yes, it's well known that's on every new years in Germany.
10:26<V453000>oh jeez :D
10:26<Mazur>NOt in tnhe UK, though, I've onlyu seenit once.
10:26<Mazur>BUt it's funny, yes.
10:27<Eddi|zuHause>must be the only show that is not dubbed on german TV :p
10:27<V453000>they play it also in english in germany?
10:27<V453000>oh wow :)
10:28<Mazur>Not seen Drei Haselnüßchen für whatever, yet, not been shown on Dutch, Belgfian or UK TV, yet, when I was alert.
10:28<Mazur>BUt I've heard of it, once.
10:29<Eddi|zuHause>it's basically a variation of the cinderella story
10:30<Mazur>Yes, I could guess that.
10:30<Mazur>Pretty actress.
10:30<V453000>from what I have checked, I think the gamelog only shows settings which can not be changed in multiplayer game, for whatever reasons :o
10:31<Eddi|zuHause>ok :)
10:31<V453000>settings like weight multiplier, towns allowed to build roads, and newgrf changes, do get shown, while all other I tried dont :o
10:31<Eddi|zuHause>that is probably correlation, not causality :)
10:31<V453000>should I make a bugreport about that? or :o
10:31<@Alberth>the log is not about logging but about desync debugging
10:32<V453000>so I guess there is no other way to check if other settings changed during th game eh
10:33<@Alberth>play back the video you were making? :D
10:33<V453000>what video? :D
10:33<V453000>I have a savegame and I would like to see what settings were changed during the game
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10:35<@Alberth>the only thing I can see further is by comparing the config between now and when you started, since that's what is kept separate
10:35<@Alberth>that is, 'new game' copies the config for the game from the intro screen setting (but not all)
10:36<V453000>alright thanks :) ... I was rather searching for the changes in settings, like if anyone allows for themselves to build primaries by funding, and then setting it back so the config files would be the same
10:36<V453000>alright :)
10:37<@Alberth>don't think we have that detailed logging
10:39<V453000>another Q ... is there a list of settings changeable only in singleplayer?
10:46<@Alberth>not as a simple list afaik
10:46<@Alberth>there is not even a list of all settings, I think
10:46<@Alberth>other than the source code :p
10:46<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: grep through src/table/settings.ini :)
10:47<V453000>I am checking it manually :D halfway through
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10:51*telanus has updated his afrikaans FIRS translation :P
10:54<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 742721/4
10:54<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 185680.25
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10:56<@Alberth>telanus: I have 4 changes :p
11:31<@Alberth>telanus: new build
11:32<telanus>thanx albert
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11:38<Eddi|zuHause>-STR_IND_GRAIN_MILL :Graan Meule
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>+STR_IND_graan_MILL :Graan Meule
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>that doesn't look right
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>neithr does this:
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>-##grflangid 0x1B
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>+##grflangid 0x01
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11:41<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: now imagine the law that they could shoot down "hijacked" planes was actually passed
11:45<andythenorth>^^ find and replace a bad way to do this
11:45<andythenorth>anybody working on a web translator? :P
11:46<andythenorth>I could add web translation to FISH and BANDIT probly
11:46<andythenorth>actually not, due to server / account / security crap
11:46<andythenorth>but the code would be easy
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11:55<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: I deleted them
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12:30<Chrill>Quick simple opinion: Best bridge set for working alongside TTRS or UK set roads? Best bridge set for regular train tracks? :D
12:32<Chrill>Well said
12:34<Chrill>There is only TBRS, then?
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13:24<Silo>Hey, just started playing for the first time, and downloaded the europe scenario. Since im a plane lover i was thinking about just going for planes, but want the world to expand, so wondering if i can add other AI players? Can't see anyone atleast
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13:27<@Alberth>you can download AI players
13:28<@Alberth>and then enable them by setting the number of competitors
13:29<Silo>In the game? because when i press the game at the scenario i cant change any options
13:29<@Alberth>before you start the game
13:30<@planetmaker>Silo: configure the AIs which you plan to use from the main menu. Then start the scenario
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13:41<Silo>Ty, but anyway i can see if it worked?
13:41<Silo>Like, to see if they are in the game?
13:42<@Alberth>they often start a year or so later
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13:43<Silo>Oh, k
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13:44<AlexAR>Hi All! :)
13:45<@Alberth>Silo: open the AI/Gamescript settings from the 3rd button dropdown, it should say a non-zero max no of competitors
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: translators * r24435 /trunk/src/lang/spanish.txt:
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: spanish - 9 changes by Terkhen
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>Silo: you will get a news message when a company starts building
13:45<Silo>I bet i can change that on AI/Gamescript config when it says the ai will start somedays after the last one?
13:45<Silo>or something+
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13:47<@planetmaker>yes. ingame you can force an AI to start now, if you type "start_ai" in the console
13:47<@planetmaker>console as in the what you open with the key left of 1
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13:49<Silo>Ty guys, seems like the Ai is in the game :)
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13:55<@Alberth>evenink Wolf01, and good night
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14:17<Silo>Anyway i can freeze the "year" dont want to go to the futurstic planes and stuff
14:19<Sacro>vehicles never expire
14:19<Sacro>or a daylength patch
14:22<Silo>So daylenght patch + setting back time before the planes and stuff comes?
14:23<Sacro>could do that yeah
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14:25<Wolf01>daylength... patch... aww
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14:35<@planetmaker>one of the sad topics. As cargo destinations
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14:58<Silo>Can i patch OpenTTD with TTDpatch?
15:00<Wolf01>oh no, poor boy, you shouldn't ever think about that
15:00<@planetmaker>you can also patch windows with linux
15:14<Eddi|zuHause>you can also patch a porsche with a ferrari
15:17<Wolf01> <- he patched a fiat 500 with a ferrari
15:18<@Terkhen>Silo: they are completely different things, you can't move features from one game to the other
15:18<@Terkhen>except NewGRFs of course, and even then not always
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15:26<Silo>I kind a figured that Terkhen after all the comments :)
15:26<Silo>But ty for a good answer tho, creds
15:37<Silo>Anyway to remove the "saving" mousepointer? my pc sucks so saving take a long time(my main pc crashed so rocking my oldest pc)
15:38<frosch123>you can disable autosave
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15:38<Eddi|zuHause>so you think by removing the cursor the saving will go faster?
15:38<frosch123>at the risk of not being able to recover easily
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>i'm feeling very unhelpful today
15:40<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: that might be due to the (local) weather
15:40<Silo>No, but the icon is quite large, and the pointing place isnt
15:41<Eddi|zuHause>in any case, you can change mouse cursors with a newgrf
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15:43<Silo>Ty, anyway to change names on vehicles?
15:44*andythenorth is feeling unhelpful
15:44-!-pjpe [] has joined #openttd
15:44<andythenorth>it is hot, I am sick, I have two sick kids, and I have spent all day at home trying to work with kids around
15:44<andythenorth>which leads to bad work, and worse parenting
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>Silo: same place
15:45<andythenorth>therefore if there are people to be unhelped, I am your man
15:45<andythenorth>actually I should be helpful, in the quest for karma
15:45<andythenorth>when life gives you lemons etc...
15:45<Rubidium>... make lemonade
15:46*andythenorth wants lemonade
15:46<andythenorth>with beer in it
15:46<Silo>Eddi|zuHause ? I meen more like instead of vehicle 1, to xxx
15:46<Rubidium>must say the beach can be found at awkward places
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>Silo: oh yes, there is a "name" button in the vehicle details
15:46<Silo>Ty bor
15:47<andythenorth>Rubidium: where did you find it today?
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15:47<Eddi|zuHause>Silo: click on the vehicle, then on the sheet icon on the lower right
15:47<Rubidium>andythenorth: the top level of a parking garage, though did find it yesterday
15:48<Rubidium> <- makes clear it isn't quite at a beachy location
15:48<andythenorth>germany has a mix of weissbier and lemon soda
15:49*andythenorth must stop reading that page
15:49<andythenorth>I have beer but not soda :P
15:50<Prof_Frink>andythenorth: If it's hot and you're ill, you should have something healthy and made from fruit.
15:51<@planetmaker>andythenorth: you can also order that in any pub of your choice usually
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15:51<Prof_Frink>I strongly recommend the homepress at the Square and Compass. Will cure everything.
15:51<andythenorth>Prof_Frink: cider?
15:51<Prof_Frink>Ooo arr.
15:52<Prof_Frink>(Please note: Do not attempt to operate heavy machinery or your legs after a pint of Eve's Idea.)
15:59<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 374964/2
15:59<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 187482
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16:21<Chris_Booth>is there any reason why I couldn't interface with the openttd console using C#?
16:22<@planetmaker>no, is there?
16:23<Chris_Booth>was asking you guys planetmaker
16:24<Chris_Booth>if not I would thinking or re-purposing my MySQL instance creator for some fun to run an openttd server
16:24<Rubidium>Chris_Booth: with console you mean the black/white thing with lots of text that shows up when starting openttd with -dN?
16:24<Chris_Booth>Rubidium: yes
16:24<Chris_Booth>in the same way autopilot interfaces with openttd
16:25<Chris_Booth>a sort of openttd server running webservice in C#
16:25<Rubidium>windows binaries are either a dos application or not, so either it always shows the command line or not. Since we don't really want that for OpenTTD, the console you then see is not the one you need. glx once made a small tool to toggle the bit that needs to be toggled
16:25<Rubidium>I think it is
16:26<+glx>exactly :)
16:26<Rubidium>though if you run a server, why not use the admin port which has been specifically designed for server management?
16:26<Chris_Booth>Rubidium: was just a fun project
16:27<+glx>and it's GUI or not, nothing related to DOS
16:28<Chris_Booth>but I was thinking or some sort of website I could use to admin a server
16:29<@planetmaker>Chris_Booth: exactly then a bot which interfaces the website and the admin port of openttd is so much more suitable
16:30<Chris_Booth>is there info on the admin port?
16:30<@planetmaker>and it would not only be fun but useful ;-)
16:30<+glx>wiki should know
16:30<@planetmaker>wiki doesn't quite know, I fear
16:31<Chris_Booth>planetmaker: I would think it would be more useful in something open source like js, but I don't know js
16:31<@planetmaker>But there's an docs/admin_port.txt
16:31<+glx>wiki points to
16:32<@planetmaker>admin_network indeed
16:32<@planetmaker>Chris_Booth: it would be useful if it existed at all. In whatever language
16:32<+glx>Last updated: 2011-01-20 <-- that's really an old feature :)
16:33<Chris_Booth>looks like I have a new project to start this weekend
16:33<@planetmaker>All existing implementations are either a proof-of-concept or unreleased and unavailable
16:34<Chris_Booth>I can easily release my .dll's for anyone to use if I get them to work
16:34<Chris_Booth>and then anyone can use them
16:34<@planetmaker>there do exist one project in java which has bothn example bot and a library to interface the port. And another in python which is only a library
16:34<@planetmaker>there *does* exist one iirc in C#. But unreleased
16:35<andythenorth>is it bedtime?
16:35<andythenorth>bye then
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16:36<@planetmaker> <-- java
16:36<@planetmaker>and link to the lib. Maybe it gives hints
16:36<@planetmaker> <-- python
16:37<@planetmaker>if you want a quick success and result and don't fear java instead of C# or so, the grapes bot is probably your best bet
16:38<@planetmaker>if you make it work, and e.g. a new game config via web, I'll happily "buy" it
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16:38<Chris_Booth>planetmaker: I will not sell it
16:39<Chris_Booth>I will put it on devzone
16:39<@planetmaker>that's why I wrote "" ;-)
16:39<@planetmaker>buy as in put to use
16:40<Sleepie>nice discussion, because I also started on bot in C#, but did not make much progress because of too much RL stuff
16:40<Sleepie>well only one week to vacation
16:40<Sleepie>maybe then I find some time to continue
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16:41<Chris_Booth>planetmaker: I would guess very few people have access to tfs for subversioning
16:41<Chris_Booth>my point proved
16:41<Chris_Booth>its the SVN control inside visual studio
16:41<Sleepie>oh no who will use this if you don't have too
16:41<Chris_Booth>but I think it only works in vs
16:41<Sleepie>tfs sucks
16:42<Sleepie>who said that?
16:42<Sleepie>you can use whichever version control you want
16:42<Chris_Booth>Sleepie: read what I said
16:43<Chris_Booth>tfs only works in vs, not it is the only svn that you can use
16:43<Sleepie>I think there is a client
16:43<Sleepie>I'm not sure if its totally free
16:43<Sleepie>sorry misunderstood
16:43<Chris_Booth>team foundation server isn't free
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16:44<Chris_Booth>I will look at other svn plugins for vs
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16:44<Sleepie>the server not well the next will come with express
16:45<Sleepie>but seriously I had to use tfs in one of my last project and I was not impressed
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16:47<Chris_Booth>that amazes me it is rather easy since it stores everything you need to build
16:48<Sleepie>On the plus side: Everything is integrated with eachother so depending on your development process (SCRUM for instance) you can maintain all stories and task and link them with your changesets and tests
16:48<Sleepie>Trust me you didn't want to maintain a TFS server
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16:48<Chris_Booth>I don't have to
16:49<Chris_Booth>Operations do that for us
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16:49<Chris_Booth>and when it crashes we bombard them with emails then go to the pub
16:49<Sleepie>lucky guy
16:50<Sleepie>Even since TFS 2010 the buildprocess is based WF4 so any customization of the build process is a bit more complicated than just to tweak a makefile or script
16:52<Sleepie>WF4 is very powerful, but I had never expected they would base the buildprocess on this technology
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16:53<Sleepie>So for my own stuff I still prefer to msbuild or nant, because msbuild has some flaws too
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16:54<Sleepie>and if you need continous integration, setup a CCNet or Jenkins server and you're done
17:00<Sleepie>planetmaker: Am I right in assuming the DevZone wouldn't be able to build .Net applications at the moment?
17:03<@planetmaker>Well. Depends whether opensuse has all packages needed to build it. Then it would be feasible
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17:04<Sleepie>hmm.. I might also have a look at Mono. At least for things like bots for the admin port it should have all things necessary
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17:07<Sleepie>At first I have todo my work so there is something to compile ;)
17:10<Sleepie>But anyway, when I have something that is alpha-like I already planned to sign up at DevZone and host it there, so other can use it and contribute
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17:20<@planetmaker>Sleepie: for instance the DevZone does build the windows binary of nml
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17:21<Sleepie>but that is based on iirc, for .Net you'll the its framework and SDK which you won't have on a linux box
17:22<Sleepie>I dunno if it would be possible with Wine though
17:23<Sleepie>so Mono might be an option, because that would work on both
17:23<Sleepie>and for Windoze .Net binaries could also be provided just as downloads
17:24<Sleepie>also building yourself would be fairly easy on windows
17:25<Sleepie>you wouldn't even VS for it, just the SDK
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17:26<Sleepie>ah forgot python in "but that is base..." :)
17:28<Sleepie>I wonder if I could build nml with IronPython
17:28<Sleepie>I hope I find some time on the weekend to test this
17:28<Silo>Any things i have to fix to take oil from oilwells to "factory"? I choose a tank ofc, but they never load anything:s
17:29<Sleepie>Silo: default industries? which vehicle set?
17:29<Silo>Yea i guess
17:29<@Terkhen>Silo: make sure that the tank you chose can carry oil, and that it is refitted to oil
17:29<@Terkhen>good night
17:30<Sleepie>night Terkhen
17:31<Silo>Will check when i start the game again, lagged a little. But my competitors set up shop just next to me, and the name of the stop is always oil something, but mine is just the name of the place/xx
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17:32<Sleepie>Multiplayer? Maybe they just renamed the station to better find it
17:33<Silo>No, sp
17:34<Sleepie>Ah so AIs, well then the AI is naming those stations I guess
17:36<Sleepie>Btw. you can also rename your stations if you feel the need for it...
17:37<Silo>Suddenly it worked now;s
17:37<Sleepie>I do that in my games, because it let me find stations easier in the station list
17:37<Silo>When i restarted my game
17:37<Silo>The trucks actually loaded the oil
17:38<Sleepie>Good to hear
17:40<Silo>Ty for help tho :D
17:42<Sleepie>you're welcome ;)
17:44<Silo>Do you get new airports just by waiting for the years to go by ?
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17:47<Sleepie>yep, but I'm not totally sure if you also need faster airplanes
17:49<Sleepie>Already looked here? ->
17:49<Sleepie>and also here ->
17:51<Sleepie>on the latter you can find the introduction date of each airport type
18:05<Nat_aS>too bad you can't merge airports
18:05<Nat_aS>a pair of comuter airports would be cool
18:10<Silo>Cant use my browser while playing
18:17<Sleepie>Silo: just look later than
18:19<Sleepie>Nat_aS: I remember there was some grf airports project/branch, but I don't remember if it was abandoned or whatever
18:19<Nat_aS>custom SImutrans style airports would be so awesome
18:19<Nat_aS>they might unbalance aircraft a bit though
18:20<Sleepie>But there is OpenGFX+ airports, which gives you already some nice features like rotating airports in 90° steps
18:20<Nat_aS>part of the tradeoff is how inneficant each airport is.
18:20<Nat_aS>yes, OGFX airports is nice
18:21<Sleepie>Hmm I don't Simutrans airport systems are their some screenshots on the forums?
18:22<Nat_aS>in simutrans, you build airports like you would any other kind of network
18:22<Nat_aS>placing runways, taxyways, tarmacs, and terminals.
18:22<Nat_aS>and hangars
18:23<Nat_aS>i'm actualy not sure how signal logic works for airports
18:23<Sleepie>Ah I see, which was basically also the goal of the grf airports project for OpenTTD
18:23<Nat_aS>I do understand that the airports of OTTD had a rather complicated signal system that the player can't see
18:24<+glx>the state machine is the hardest thing
18:24<+glx>it's very easy to deadlock a badly designed state machine
18:29<Sleepie>is there any further development in that direction?
18:30<Sleepie>so improving the current state machine or starting from scratch?
18:30<Nat_aS>state machine?
18:33<+glx>each airport has its own state machine
18:33<Nat_aS>actualy now that I think about it
18:33<Nat_aS>airplanes on the ground used the same logic as trucks in simutrans IIRC
18:34<Nat_aS>been a while, I don't remember if i ever saw them pass each other
18:34<Nat_aS>it was kind of hard to build a big air route in that game
18:34<Nat_aS>because passenger networks don't get a lot of heavy use unless you connect a lot of places
18:35<Nat_aS>unlike OTTD where passingers show up even if they have nowhere intresting to go
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18:37<Sleepie>I found this topic which seems to be the origin of the current OpenGFX+ airports ->
18:38<Sleepie>there also many links to previous attempts the other specs
18:38<Sleepie>in the intro post
18:39<Sleepie>personally I'm quite happy with current airport system, because I'm more interested in trains
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18:41<Sleepie>modular airports would still be a nice feature though
18:44<Sleepie>some improvements on ship transport would be cool
18:44<Nat_aS>Newgrf seaports
18:44<Nat_aS>All my want
18:44<Nat_aS>also boat speed factor
18:44<Nat_aS>because waiting for boats is fustrating on large maps
18:44<Sleepie>modular harbours
18:45<Nat_aS>i want to build container ports
18:45<Sleepie>yep exactly
18:45<Sleepie>and improved pathfinder for ships
18:46<Sleepie>so they cannot drive through each other
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20:52<Silo>stop_ai <company_slot> what is the company slot?
21:01<Eddi|zuHause>a number between 1 and 14
21:01<Eddi|zuHause>(0 is your own company)
21:04<Eddi|zuHause>you should be able to run "companies" to find out which ones are used. or the AI debug window (in the [?] menu)
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---Logclosed Thu Jul 26 00:00:32 2012