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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-07-27

---Logopened Fri Jul 27 00:00:33 2012
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02:55<__ln__>good @330
03:09<TrueBrain>@op
03:09-!-mode/#openttd [+o TrueBrain] by DorpsGek
03:09-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!*@dyndsl-031-150-016-047.ewe-ip-backbone.de] by TrueBrain
03:10-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!~ttdpatch@*] by TrueBrain
03:10<@TrueBrain>@deop
03:10-!-mode/#openttd [-o TrueBrain] by DorpsGek
03:10<Eddi|zuHause>whowhat?
03:12*NGC3982 have started playing a lot of FISH
03:12<@planetmaker>moin
03:13<NGC3982>morning
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03:46<Supercheese>Valete, amici, I'm off to bed
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04:00<@Alberth>hi
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04:35<telanus>Hi Alberth
04:36<NGC3982>http://www.space.com/16772-robot-arms-fashion-space-junk-satellites.html
04:41<@Alberth>talking about insane plans :)
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05:27<dihedral>https://9gag.com/gag/4857864 :-D
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07:06*telanus prods terkhen with a super sheep
07:07<telanus>My Afrikaans translation of OpenGFX+ Road Vehicles is on the Forum
07:10*peter1138 notes that hg works better on a mercurial repository than git...
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07:11<xavexgoem>Any AI people around here? I'm thinking AITile.IsBuildable() is broken
07:12<xavexgoem>Or maybe I'M broken and can't tell what's going wrong
07:12<@Alberth>given the quite fundamental feature, I suspect the latter until proven otherwise :)
07:14<Eddi|zuHause>xavexgoem: maybe you start with what you're trying to achieve, what you expected how it works, and how it actually works?
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07:21<@Alberth>xavexgoem: how do you think it is broken?
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07:35<xavexgoem>Sure. I'm trying to build a one-way road station a few random tiles away from an industry. I can't have the station be directly adjacent to an industry and facing it at the same time, since you can't build a road leading out. So I call IsBuildable(tile), where tile is the tile leading out
07:36<xavexgoem>It's supposed to try and find another location if IsBuildable fails, but it always succeeds
07:37<xavexgoem>So the station is built and it's useless
07:38<xavexgoem>if(!AITile.IsBuildable(stationTileFront)) continue;
07:45<@Alberth>what's in front of it then? IsBuildable does look like a function that often returns true
07:45<xavexgoem>Typically the actual footpront of the industry, like a sawmill or a coal mine
07:45<xavexgoem>Something you certainly can't build over
07:47<@Alberth>did you check the tile coordinates of the check? did you test IsBuildable on an industry tile (to confirm the result)
07:48<xavexgoem>Yes, I always run AISign.BuildSign(stationTileFront,"blahblahblah") after the station is built
07:49<xavexgoem>Between that if statement up there and the sign building, stationTileFront never changes
07:55<xavexgoem>Although now that I do an explicit check... weird
07:59<@Alberth>I am looking for a way to check whether a tile belongs to an industry, as that would confirm its broken-ness, but no luck so far
08:01<xavexgoem>I'm actually building the sign right before I make the check. The odd thing is if I run isBuildable on a known tile (e.g., IsBuildable(AIMap.GetTileIndex(x,y))), it returns false
08:01<xavexgoem>So I'm probably doing something vexing
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08:03<xavexgoem>ahh... seems to work for if(AITile.IsBuildable(stationTileFront) == false) continue;
08:03<xavexgoem>instead of !AITile
08:04<xavexgoem>Haha, no
08:05<@Alberth>yeah that would be weird :)
08:08<@Alberth>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1596/ <-- the source says it will not return true for an industry (default: return false), only 4 other cases are considered in more detail
08:13<xavexgoem>Goddamnit, I see what I've done
08:13<xavexgoem>Wait, no I don't. Wow.
08:14<@Alberth>GetIndustryID(TileIndex tile) gives you an industry ID if the tile is at an industry tile
08:19<xavexgoem>I've pasted it in, if you want to take a look
08:20<Eddi|zuHause>what's the random for?
08:21<xavexgoem>I want the station to be near, but I don't really care where
08:21<Eddi|zuHause>i mean for "front"
08:21<xavexgoem>Face a random direction
08:21<Eddi|zuHause>one would assume "front" is always 1 tile away
08:22<xavexgoem>With that it always will be
08:22<Eddi|zuHause>but that may get you the same tile, or diagonal tiles
08:22<xavexgoem>Sometimes at a diagonal, which'll fail the station biuld, but that's OK
08:22<xavexgoem>I know
08:22<Eddi|zuHause>you might want to do "+ random(2)?+1:-1"
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08:33<xavexgoem>That works better. Station is still wonky.
08:37<xavexgoem>Updated the pastebin. The weirdness increases: I check IsBuildable outside the loop, and it DOES give the correct results, even after just building a bad station
08:53<xavexgoem>and in closing, it completely goes away if you use an infinite loop broken out of if the station build succeeds. No idea why.
08:53<@planetmaker>xavexgoem, building a new station on top of one of your existing stations is feasible and allowed
08:53<@planetmaker>Thus the tile remains "buildable"
08:54<xavexgoem>That wasn't the issue, though. It was saying an actual building was buildable
08:54<xavexgoem>Now it doesn't, but that's by making a seemingly unrelated change
08:56<xavexgoem>So instead of "do { ... } while (!AIRoad.BuildRoad(...))", it's while(true) { ... if(AIRoad.BuildRoad(...) } Ooooooooohhh
08:57<xavexgoem>*facepalm*
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09:19<@Belugas>hello
09:19<@Alberth>hello sir B
09:19<@Belugas>sir A :)
09:21<@peter1138>sir A and sir B
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09:23<@Alberth>http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/bumpy_road_bridge.png this road bridge looks a bit bumpy :p
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09:26<Eddi|zuHause>something like that happened in SC2000 sometimes
09:28<@Belugas>cool :)
09:28<@Belugas>UNREAL!!
09:43<@planetmaker>haha, nice, Alberth ! :-)
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10:56<Aztec>hi everyone. :) I've been looking through NewGRFs to enhance OpenTTD and stumbeld across the 2cc TrainSet. It's looking good but is anyone actually using it? Those train prices are so~ high or am I just to bad at openttd to afford them?
10:59<@Terkhen>hello :)
10:59*Terkhen is back home for the holidays
11:01<telanus>Aztec they are a bit on the expensive side
11:01<@Terkhen>Aztec: IIRC you can adjusts the cost via parameter
11:02<Aztec>Hi Terkhen *hands a beverage of your liking*
11:03<Aztec>Thanks for the hint, i should've checked sooner and also thanks telanus.
11:03<@Terkhen>no problem :)
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11:22<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: traditionally, "the holidays" means christmas/newyear
11:23<@Terkhen>vacations then?
11:23<Eddi|zuHause>better :)
11:23<@Terkhen>as long as I don't have to work, you can call them as you like
11:23<@Terkhen>:D
11:25<@Alberth>hi Terkhen
11:26<@Terkhen>hi Alberth :)
11:32*Belugas is leaving for vacations tonigh as well. 2 well deserved weeks
11:32<@Terkhen>indeed, I hope you enjoy them :)
11:32<@Belugas>even if work@home4home is scheduled :S
11:32<@Alberth>have a very good time, Belugas
11:32<@Belugas>i might. At least, i'll see my son and wife 24/7*2 ;)
11:32<@Belugas>i'll try to, Alberth :)
11:33<@Belugas>and hopefully, sir peter1138, we'll have time to jam in my brand new studio :D
11:34<@Alberth>a studio is no good if you cannot use it :)
11:35<@Terkhen>:)
11:36<Aztec>Sounds nice. I'm still undecied where i want to spend my next vacation. :/ There are so many possibilities but so I'd have to learn so many new languages to make the best of it.
11:38<@Belugas>indeed, Alberth :) That's why it's my main priority for the vacations. I'm tired to hear complains about the strange sounds my guit makes while practicing.
11:40<@Belugas>Aztec, yuo know, with english, you can get pretty much everywhere, these days. or so i am encline to believe
11:40<@Belugas>sadly, french is not as widly used :(
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>even to montreal? :)
11:41<@Belugas>on the contrary :D
11:42<Aztec>Sure I'd get around but there's so much you miss and (IMO) it's worth not only going to the big tourism places but get a view at the more rural areas and I'd guess englisch isn't that common there, at least in some countries like egypt or japan.
11:44<@Belugas>well... my wife speaks spanish (my kid starts to), i'm fluant in english, we all know french. That covers most of the american continents
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>i'd advise against syria at the moment, though :)
11:44<@Belugas>and there's plenty to see there :)
11:44<@Belugas>quite!
11:48<Aztec>I'll probably stay near my hometown and just visit some castles or spend some time at the sea. That's way more than far enough from syria. ;D
11:49<Aztec>Oh and there usually is enought to see in your own country but sometimes i'd really like to see something different. ;) Ok in the US it's rather easy because you got a lot of different enviroments.
11:54<Eddi|zuHause>you don't really have medieval castles in the US, though ;)
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12:40<Aztec>There has to be a downside! ;P I'm living in europe so there are a lot of castles. :)
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13:19<Wolf01>hello
13:21<@Alberth>hello Wolf01
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13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: translators * r24437 /trunk/src/lang/korean.txt:
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: korean - 14 changes by telk5093
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14:10<NGC3982>oh my
14:11<NGC3982>underworld is making the music for the olympic show tonight
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14:34<frosch123>why has mediawiki no option to revert multiple revisions in one step
14:35<Wolf01>because it's trycky to revert the revert in case of necessity :D
14:35<Wolf01>*tricky
14:36<frosch123>revert does not delete it from the history
14:36<frosch123>rollback only works for a single user, not 20 :(
14:38<frosch123>ah, i can click on edit for an old revision, and then save it
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14:55<Wolf01>bbl, maybe
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15:06<Eddi|zuHause>sometimes i really don't get xkcd...
15:07<Supercheese>agreed
15:07<frosch123>i got the hint
15:07<frosch123>for the rest you likely need to know the story
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>that's a little harder if you've only seen one of (apparently) two referenced movies
15:10<frosch123>where are there movie references?
15:10<frosch123>it's a quote from wiki, illustrated with a scene from lotr
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15:16<CIA-4>OpenTTD: frosch * r24438 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix [FS#5256-ish]: Make (non-refittable) vehicles with invalid default cargo unavailable.
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15:30<Eddi|zuHause>oh... today is "sysadmin appreciation day"
15:31*Rubidium doesn't appreciate his work's sysadmin
15:36<TrueBrain>and I never got any flowers from any of you
15:36<TrueBrain>pfffffff
15:40<NGC3982>with FIRS, if i have a single source of engineering supplies and a lot of primary industries that needs it
15:41<NGC3982>- do i put it all in one primary industry, or do i make myself better off distributing the low amount of engineering supplies to all of the above?
15:41<@Alberth>the latter
15:42<@Alberth>at least that's what everybody does, I have never reached that point in my games :)
15:42<NGC3982>oh, and note that all the primary industries i talk about create stuff that later creates engineering supplies
15:42<NGC3982>i see.
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: every industry needs 1 crate of engineering supplies every month
15:43<NGC3982>that's enough?
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>that's a real challenge :)
15:43<NGC3982>well.. yeah.
15:43<NGC3982>ive been doing this a bit wrong
15:43<NGC3982>full load on a huge train to a single industry
15:44<NGC3982>where i should have used smaller trains and more spread amongst the industries, i guess.
15:50<TWerkhoven>distrubution centre
15:50<TWerkhoven>where a train unloads, then uses trucks to distribute to single primaries
15:52<NGC3982>yes, i guess that is the best way
15:52<NGC3982>doesnt the distances kill of the use of trucks?
15:55<CIA-4>OpenTTD: frosch * r24439 /trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#5254]: In some cases ships could be covered with land.
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: the trucks would only go short distances. the long distances are made by larger trains with transfer order
16:03<Aztec>Are there other resources besides the ottd wiki and openttdcoop with tutorials/additional information about building?
16:03<Eddi|zuHause>yes
16:04<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: i think i catch your drift.
16:04<NGC3982>ill give it a shot.
16:04<NGC3982>that said; FIRS is hard. really hard.
16:05<@Alberth>Aztec: the forums, and many other TTD sites
16:05<NGC3982>..and i like it as much. :)
16:05<@Alberth>NGC3982: just don't deliver supplies :)
16:05<Aztec>So I just have to keep clicking and reading. :D
16:06<NGC3982>Alberth: say what? :p
16:07<@Alberth>Aztec: don't forget to experiment with the game :p
16:07<NGC3982>dont miss the olympics thingy right now, guys.
16:09<Aztec>Oh I still have long way to go so there are a lot of experimnets i've yet to do. ;D I'd never be able to build a self regulating network - hell my ML is still jamming. But it's interesting to see what other people have build and what's possible.
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>Aztec: there's a savegame forum where people occasionally show what they built
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16:16<Aztec>So i probably should check it out, thanks. I didn't really have a look at the forum, yet.
16:55<@Terkhen>good night
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17:08<Aztec>I've seen it several times now, is there any advantage of using One-Way PBS on the ML?
17:09<@Belugas>VACATIONS!!!
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>Aztec: there is no difference in behaviour if there is no switch
17:10<@Belugas>See you in two weeks!!!!!
17:10<Rubidium>have fun Belugas
17:10<Aztec>Bye Belugas, enjoy!
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17:43<Sleepie>hello
17:51<@planetmaker>Aztec: join MP servers. Learn from others
17:51<@planetmaker>Belugas: enjoy!
17:52<@planetmaker>Aztec: I can recommend the #openttdcoop welcome server in particular, if you're interested in stuff like the srnw. Or join the real thing, the main server of coop
18:13<Sleepie>*facepalm*
18:14<Sleepie>I still get blocked when trying to do edits on the wiki
18:15<Eddi|zuHause>you're a spammer.
18:15<Eddi|zuHause>you can tell that by having a t-dialin.net address
18:16<Sleepie>It seems its bad to be a customer of the of the biggest ISPs in germany :(
18:16<Eddi|zuHause>:p
18:16<Sleepie>+one
18:16-!-Elukka [Elukka@78-27-97-92.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit []
18:17<frosch123>well, the spambots had no problem posting today, when they noticed that we forgot to setup a captcha for unregistered edits :s
18:17<Sleepie>Looking at http://wiki.openttd.org/Special:BlockList while still being logged in my name pops up on nearly all entries of 2009 and 2006
18:17<Sleepie>frosch123: Yep I had seen it some minutes ago, there were messing around like crazy
18:18<frosch123>yeah, but for some reason the bots only noticed it yesterday
18:18<frosch123>not the days before
18:18<Eddi|zuHause>captchas only work when they're custom made
18:18<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: no captcha at all for sure does not work
18:19<Eddi|zuHause>we need the kitten-test!
18:21<Sleepie>at least the captchas seem to prevent them from posting links
18:21<Sleepie>maybe anom edits should be forbidden too
18:22<frosch123>as long as only single bots are able to enter, the rollback is enough
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18:22<frosch123>it only gets annoying if 10 bots modify a page before notice
18:23<Sleepie>frosch123: any idea what to do so can contribute again? Like now it seems I have no chance at all
18:23<Sleepie>+I
18:23<frosch123>we have no idea at all
18:23<Sleepie>:(
18:25<frosch123>we could make you a moderator, maybe that prevents you from being blocked :p
18:26<Sleepie>we can try
18:27<Sleepie>or just lift the old blocks
18:28<frosch123>i don't quite believe that the old blocks are really causing it
18:28<Sleepie>well the thing is still strange..
18:29<Sleepie>last time I tried about 3 days ago I could make a few edits
18:29<Sleepie>then it happened again while I still had the same IP
18:30<frosch123>try to login again
18:31<Sleepie>maybe some of the extensions is not compatible with the new mediaiki version
18:31<Sleepie>ok
18:31<frosch123>if you are still banned, maybe you can unban yourself :p
18:33<Sleepie>ok I'm still banned, on which page I have to look for unban?
18:33<frosch123>the special.blocklist one
18:33<Sleepie>ok I'll try
18:36<Sleepie>hmm... I cannot find the "button" to unban there
18:36<Sleepie>and my name isn't on the list either
18:37<Sleepie>but user 'kristy' now seems to get all those blocks I had before
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18:38<frosch123>the should be some "change block" button
18:38<Sleepie>not for me :P
18:39<Sleepie>seems moderators cannot unblock then
18:41<frosch123>TrueBrain: can user rights be changed via the wiki interface? or does that need ldap magic?
18:41<TrueBrain>frosch123: both; depends on what you want?
18:42<frosch123>i tried adding sleepie to wiki-sysop group
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18:42<TrueBrain>both LDAP as mediawiki groups work
18:42<TrueBrain>so either one will do
18:42<TrueBrain>so yeah, that works
18:42<Sleepie>is 'kristy' really blocked? Or is that another one like me - collateral damage
18:42<frosch123>Sleepie: do you have to option to move pages?
18:43<TrueBrain>as far as I can tell, users are still hitting eachother with the autoban
18:43<TrueBrain>and I couldn't find how to disable autoban completely
18:43<Sleepie>yes
18:43<frosch123>did you have that option before?
18:44<Sleepie>hmm I'm not sure but I guess not
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18:44<TrueBrain>frosch123: maybe we should just flush the whole ban list?
18:44<frosch123>can you edit the frontpage or only view the source?
18:44<TrueBrain>most bans are really old
18:44<Sleepie>TrueBrain: I wouldn't remove all bans
18:45<frosch123>TrueBrain: if you have an easy way to do that :)
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18:45<Sleepie>maybe all older than one year and then lets see how it goes
18:45<TrueBrain>hit the button N times?
18:46<Sleepie>^simple but tedious
18:46<frosch123>there is no single click unban
18:46<TrueBrain>guess I can empty the table, but unsure if that does all we want it to do
18:46<Sleepie>depends if there are any relations to other stuff
18:47<TrueBrain>no shit
18:47<TrueBrain>lol
18:47<TrueBrain>kristy is banned a lot of times, lolz
18:47<Sleepie>same for me 15 minutes ago
18:48<Sleepie>but even I'm now not on the list I couldn't edit anyway
18:48<TrueBrain>its really autoblock keeping itself alive
18:48<TrueBrain>will take 24+h nobody editing I guess for it to solve
18:48<TrueBrain>which is not going to happen :P
18:49<Sleepie>forbid editing on all pages :P
18:49<Sleepie>and make a pointer on the main page
18:49<Sleepie>but I guess the one-click button for it is not invented
18:50<TrueBrain>there
18:50<TrueBrain>empty block list
18:50<TrueBrain>lolz
18:50<Sleepie>ok I'll do another try...
18:51<TrueBrain>frosch123: can you revoke his sysop rights later? Mediawiki tells me he doesn't have them, but he appears to do? I dunno, odd interface :P
18:52<Sleepie>yeah it worked :)
18:53<frosch123>removed the group again, though it is not logged :p
18:53<TrueBrain>frosch123: lolz
18:53<TrueBrain>and FYI: Wiki-NNN, are assigned by LDAP
18:53<TrueBrain>they are copied to ...
18:53<TrueBrain>the non Wiki- ones
18:53<TrueBrain>in LocalSettings it copies the rights administrator has to Wiki-Sysop
18:54<TrueBrain>which comes from LDAP
18:54<frosch123>so, i would have had set him to administrator?
18:54<TrueBrain>both work, but yes
18:55<frosch123>administrator has more rights
18:55<TrueBrain>I _think_ the Wiki- entries are reloaded once in a while
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18:55<TrueBrain>ah, yes, I didn't copy all rights I see
18:55<frosch123>the add group "check users" should only be for bureaoucrats
18:55<TrueBrain>only the checkuser differs, not?
18:56<Sleepie>user right changes are not logged?
18:56<frosch123>or however they are written
18:56<frosch123>these groupnames are so confusing
18:56<TrueBrain>they are
18:56<frosch123>one should think that "administrator" is the most powerful one
18:56<frosch123>but bureaucrats are more
18:56<TrueBrain>from my understand, Bureaucrats is implied by Administrator
18:57<frosch123>oh, right
18:57<TrueBrain>http://wiki.openttd.org/Special:ListGroupRights agrees with my statement, and disagrees with yours
18:57<frosch123>i thought they did not have the "edit user rights"
18:57<TrueBrain>but ... I hate the naming
18:57<TrueBrain>it is fucking confusing
18:57<Sleepie>I guess this explains it all http://wiki.openttd.org/Special:ListGroupRights
18:57<TrueBrain>btw, I am very tempted to close editing for anonymous
18:58<frosch123>i have no idea why there is a group that gives you more user right-management rights, but no edit rights
18:58<Sleepie>still a bit confusing though
18:58<Sleepie>TrueBrain: +1
18:58<frosch123>TrueBrain: we just enabled the captcha :p
18:58<TrueBrain>I know :P
18:58<TrueBrain>but reading through the Recent Changes
18:58<TrueBrain>it annoys me I see IPs
18:58<TrueBrain>and not names
18:58<TrueBrain>I cannot contact anyone asking why he made a change
18:58<TrueBrain>I don't see the point
18:59<frosch123>i never had to ask anyone
18:59<Sleepie>I'm all for it
18:59<frosch123>either stuff is correct or wrong
18:59<TrueBrain>well, you work with it more than I, so I will leave it then :)
18:59<frosch123>anyway, i don't mind it being disabled
18:59<frosch123>would be consistent with the rest :)
19:02<TrueBrain>I consulted the other devs too, we will see what comes out of it :P
19:02<TrueBrain>for now, time to find my bed
19:02<TrueBrain>night
19:02<Sleepie>night and many thanks frosch123 and TrueBrain
19:04<TrueBrain>and tnx frosch123 for cleaning up the wiki :)
19:05<frosch123>:)
19:07<frosch123>night
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19:27<NGC3982>4.113.000.000 viewers.
19:27<NGC3982>i would be a bit and a half nervous.
19:40<Sleepie>Olympia?
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19:44<NGC3982>mhm
19:47<Sleepie>Well I wasn't one of them :P
19:47<Sleepie>I'm more interested in the winter games
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22:44<Mars>Hello
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---Logclosed Sat Jul 28 00:00:35 2012