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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-08-02

---Logopened Thu Aug 02 00:00:45 2012
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00:50<Supercheese>Hmm, what do y'all think the price_factor for electricity should be w.r.t. the other cargos?
00:51<Supercheese>1/10th?
00:51<Supercheese>FIRS has stuff from the 70s-100s
00:51<Supercheese>70s-140s*
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03:31<@Terkhen>good morning
03:32<NGC3982>szaman: "w.r.t"?
03:32<NGC3982>su..
03:32<NGC3982>Bah, ignore on modes, nicks, parts and quits can be annoying.
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04:05<@planetmaker>moin
04:06<@planetmaker>dihedral, how's actually progress with joan and grapes? :-)
04:06<NGC3982>Morning.
04:06<NGC3982>Im about to make first first intraweb site. Any rules i should consider while giving it a version number?
04:06<NGC3982>0.0.x?
04:06<@planetmaker>whatever rule suits you, I'd say
04:07<@Terkhen>good morning planetmaker :)
04:07<@planetmaker>hey Terkhen :-)
04:08<NGC3982>planetmaker: Ah, so there are no particular settings for standard programming?
04:08<@planetmaker>do the standards matter if they make you unhappy? ;-)
04:09<NGC3982>Very true.
04:09*NGC3982 uses 0.0.x.
04:10<@Terkhen>major.minor.release works fine, but I don't know any other numbering schemes :P
04:11<NGC3982>:)
04:11<NGC3982>x.x.x allows 729 changes, right?
04:11<@planetmaker>Terkhen, in that case openttd does it wrong. As major and minor are about the same meaning ;-)
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04:12<@Terkhen>but we have 0.x.x and 1.x.x
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04:12<@planetmaker>yep :-)
04:12<@planetmaker>but what will constitute 2.x.y?
04:12<NGC3982>im not planning on using major or minor updates.
04:12<@Terkhen>NGC3982: you can of course do stuff like 0.1.10
04:13<NGC3982>im simply going to add one after every update.
04:13<@planetmaker>0.1.A for geeks ;-)
04:13<NGC3982>after 0.9.9 comes 1.0.0, etc.
04:13<@Terkhen>if you don't plan to use them, just use the X numbering scheme that stuff like firefox or ICU uses
04:13<NGC3982>I, I, A*
04:13<@planetmaker>NGC3982, in that case you could simply do a sequential numbering
04:13<@Terkhen>planetmaker: ask those guys in the general subforum, they seem to know what 2.x.x should include
04:13<@planetmaker>:-D
04:14<@Terkhen>personally the only big thing I'm missing is destinations
04:14<NGC3982>planetmaker: number.date or something
04:14<NGC3982>where date is the last update
04:14<@Terkhen>so probably that
04:14<NGC3982>version 119.2012-08-01
04:14<NGC3982>or something like that.
04:15<NGC3982>and a changelog on the site
04:15<NGC3982>yeah, that'l do.
04:15<NGC3982>I keep forgetting using capital letters, though.
04:15<@planetmaker>apropos... Terkhen, we can get the commit time from hg. Would it make sense to display that in the grf name for releases?
04:16<@planetmaker>the commit time doesn't depend on build time, so it would remain the same
04:16<@planetmaker>Like "Swedish Rails 1.0.0 (2012-08-16)"
04:16<@planetmaker>or similar
04:18<@Terkhen>planetmaker: that time would need to be localized... most average users don't know the YYYY/MM/DD ISO format, and depending on country we would need to use DD/MM/YYYY or MM/DD/YYYY
04:34<Ammler>NGC3982: http://semver.org/ might help
04:37<NGC3982>Ammler: I have already decided.
04:37<NGC3982>Ammler: But thanks. :)
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04:49<@planetmaker>Terkhen, "16 Aug 2012" should then be clear, right?
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05:39<@Terkhen>planetmaker: yes :)
05:41<Elukka>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ki_Af_o9Q9s
05:41<Elukka>curiosity's landing on sunday
05:44<@Terkhen>bbl
05:53<@peter1138>Elukka, assuming it works...
05:53<Elukka>well, something's gonna hit the ground in some way :P
05:54<Elukka>mars is hard
05:54<Elukka>though if it had no atmosphere at all it'd be even harder
05:54<Elukka>well, not necessarily harder but a lot more expensive
05:57<Ammler>yyyy-mm-dd is also clear, or does yyyy-dd-mm exist?
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06:01<TinoDidriksen>yyyy-dd-mm does not exist.
06:05<@planetmaker>mm-dd-yyyy and dd-mm-yyyy exist though
06:05<@planetmaker>anyway, I like the written month for clarity better, too
06:05<@planetmaker>hg tip --template='{date|rfc822date}\n' | cut -d\ -f2-4
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06:13<NGC3982>As a swede, anything else but yyyy-mm-dd sounds incredibly weird.
06:13<@planetmaker>welcome to the real world
06:16<__ln__>happy 08/01/12 everyone
06:25<@peter1138>Happy second day of the eighth month of the two thousand and twelfth year of our lord.
06:26<@peter1138>(Twelfth has entirely too many consonants.)
06:32<NGC3982>Im sorry, but you are not correct.
06:33<NGC3982>Afaik, the Gregorian calendar was altered and subtracted with 11 days, anno 1752.
06:33<NGC3982>Thus, Christmas is a blasphemy.
06:34<NGC3982>planetmaker: The word "twelfth" is the American English version of Engelbrekt Humperdink.
06:34<NGC3982>:P
06:37<@peter1138>I'm still not planetmaker.
06:37<NGC3982>For god sake, i'm sorry.
06:37<@planetmaker>luckily :P
06:37<NGC3982>You look the same.
06:37*NGC3982 awaits flamewar.
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07:15<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause2: By the way, im way late with this. Regarding our discussion about the expanding universe, there is a lecture with Lawrence Krauss ("A universe from nothing") where most of the experiments are explained without the advanced mathematics.
07:15<NGC3982>It's also a fun lecture, and i highly recommend it.
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08:09<__ln__>http://imgur.com/a/d4N9B
08:12<@peter1138>They've been busy...
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08:16<NGC3982>Sweet jesus..
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08:18<blathijs>peter1138: Don't you mean beesy?
08:30-!-Dany0 [~Dany0@242.35.broadband7.iol.cz] has joined #openttd
08:31<Dany0>does anyone know who made http://wiki.openttd.org/images/9/96/OverlayTiles.png
08:31<Dany0>looks like it's from sketchup
08:31<Dany0>( judging by the colours )
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08:36<Dany0>also, how do I expand/move/create a rainforest in-game in sub-tropical climate?
08:37<Eddi|zuHause>that can only be done in scenario editor
08:38<Dany0>shoot :/
08:38<Dany0>I'm a bazillionillionillionaire now, are you sure there's no way? :(
08:39<Eddi|zuHause>yes, once you started a game, desert is desert
08:39<Dany0>shoot :|
08:39<Eddi|zuHause>otherwise it would be too easy to get around the food/water requirement of towms, just convert the town square
08:40<Dany0>I just want a lumber mill
08:40<Dany0>can they not cut down cactuses? :D
08:40<Eddi|zuHause>for your expensive cactus furniture?
08:41<Dany0>see I have this big loading station that has still some place around it and I'd like to increase my company performance rating
08:42<Dany0>http://j.mp/PotIWr <-- I may have used the magic bulldozer a few times
08:44<Ammler>lumber will works with cactuses afaik
08:45<Dany0>Ammler nope only rainforests
08:48<NGC3982>What on earth is that
08:48<NGC3982>Some kind of ancient elf language?
08:49<Dany0>NGC3982 czech
08:57<FLHerne>NGC3982: :P
08:59<Dany0>any wiki mods here?
09:00<Dany0>oh right I just have to look at the history
09:00<NGC3982>For odd stuff in the wiki, i suggest you adress it publicly.
09:00<Dany0>"peter1138"
09:00<Dany0>ha he's here
09:00<NGC3982>Since the wiki is outdated.
09:02<Dany0>peter1138 picture in http://wiki.openttd.org/Peter1138/Railtypes#Action_3 <-- is that from sketchup? or some other 3d modeller? if yes, could you probably share the file if you still have it? It'd be a great example for easy voxel editing
09:09<@peter1138>sketchup
09:09<@peter1138>and i don't think i do
09:10<@peter1138>how is it a great example for easy voxel editing? heh
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09:13<Dany0>peter1138 I don't know how to explain it...
09:16<Dany0>peter1138 basically, I tried making tiles in a voxel editor, but I failed miserably because I couldn't get the proportions right
09:18<Eddi|zuHause>hm, allegedly The Hobbit had so much overtime that they needed only like 20 more minutes to split the 2 films into 3
09:19<Dany0>peter1138 still no? :(
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09:48<@peter1138>hmm?
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10:23<Dany0>peter1138 could you share that model?
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10:35<@peter1138>no i don't have it
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11:13<Dany0>oh, shoot
11:14<Dany0>ok then
11:15<V453000>hi, is it possible that if I make a clean map with only 1 town and a "neighbours are important script" and fund new towns in the game - that the new towns which I funded are not influenced by the script?
11:19<Dany0>V453000 contact the author of the script
11:20<V453000>Zuu^ :)
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11:35<andythenorth>bonjour
11:38<V453000>hi
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11:42<andythenorth>hmm
11:42<andythenorth>FISH and an 1870 start date :|
11:42<andythenorth>not sure how to solve that one
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12:16<FLHerne>andythenorth: Make the start date earlier? :D
12:16<andythenorth>meh
12:17<andythenorth>I don't want to play games before 1870
12:17<andythenorth>I don't want to add ships for pre-1870 either :P
12:19<FLHerne>andythenorth: What do you have against pre-1870ists? :P
12:19<andythenorth>makes sets too big and complicated, and hard to finish
12:20<andythenorth>FIRS is worse for trying to support ~2,000 years of history
12:20<andythenorth>:P
12:20<Pinkbeast>Send 'em a pointer to the old Sailing Ships grf.
12:21<andythenorth>feature request for newgrf: pointer to another grf
12:21<andythenorth>just includes it :P
12:22<Pinkbeast>The thing that's really missing there is horse-drawn canal boats.
12:22<andythenorth>should be in egrvts [canal as a road type]
12:23<FLHerne>andythenorth: Quit suggesting everything as a subtype of something else. It makes my head spin... :P
12:28<FLHerne>andythenorth: Anyway, big and complicated is good. It allows games to be prolonged more :-)
12:32<Pinkbeast>Certainly canals as something other than the current astronomically-expensive implementation might not hurt.
12:39<Maya>Are people actually using canals for something else than just eye candy?
12:39*FLHerne is
12:41<FLHerne>Old FISH nigtlies which can reduce the costs help
12:41<Maya>With standard ships or only in combination with a newgrf?
12:41<FLHerne>andythenorth: Have you done that with the NML yet?
12:42<andythenorth>yes
12:42<FLHerne>Maya: FISH, Sailing Ships, NewShips
12:42<andythenorth>nml FISH will reduce some water construction costs
12:42<FLHerne>andythenorth: :-) I'll have to upgrade to FISH 2 then...
12:42<Maya>That's a whole lot of ships. ;)
12:42<Pinkbeast>Maya: I did it with Sailing Ships (which looks ridiculous) in a pre-locomotive game, so I had ships and horse EGRVTS vehicles.
12:42<andythenorth>FLHerne: FISH 2 should now be getting built by the bundle server
12:43<andythenorth>and needs play testing
12:43<FLHerne>Maya: I like variety :-) You should see my RV list :P
12:43<andythenorth>hmm
12:43<Maya>RV?
12:43<andythenorth>maybe it's failing to build
12:43<FLHerne>Road Vehicle :P
12:43<andythenorth>ffs :|
12:43<Maya>That sounds to strange if you're used to play with diesel engines @Pinkbeast XD
12:44<Pinkbeast>Coughs and sneezles spread diseasels, you know.
12:44<Eddi|zuHause>sailing ships should probably be scaled down a notch
12:44*FLHerne gets alarmed by apt-get output - it wants to remove Opera :o
12:44*andythenorth seeks help with bundle server :)
12:44<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: It's fine, just keep them away from bridges :P
12:44<andythenorth>anyone else want to try building FISH 2?
12:45<FLHerne>andythenorth: How convoluted is it?
12:45<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/fish/repository
12:45<Maya>Just remove pything or perl FLHerne - You won't care about opera anymore (can't remember which language apt-get uses).
12:45<andythenorth>FISH 2 has some python deps
12:45<FLHerne>andythenorth: Which sort of Python?
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12:46<Maya>Hi glx
12:46<andythenorth>FLHerne: I'm building with 2.6
12:46<andythenorth>and it needs the chameleon templating library
12:46*FLHerne gets confused by the apparent lack of forward or backward compatiblity :P
12:46<andythenorth>also nml + nml deps are needed :P
12:46<FLHerne>Can I expect 2.7 to work?
12:47<andythenorth>yup
12:47<andythenorth>should do
12:47<FLHerne>For once :-)
12:49<FLHerne>andythenorth: So do I want src, then build_fish.py? Or is it more complicated than that?
12:49<andythenorth>clone, install deps, make
12:50<FLHerne>k
12:50<Eddi|zuHause>is there a list of deps?
12:51<Eddi|zuHause>or, like, a configure script?
12:52*FLHerne waits for KDE to finish updating first
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12:54<Eddi|zuHause>it fails to check out...
12:55<Eddi|zuHause>"Abbruch: vorzeitiges Ende des Stroms (193971 Byte erhalten, 530940 erwartet)"
12:55<Eddi|zuHause>and then it deletes everything it downloaded
12:55<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler?
12:57<frosch123>you can download the big repos only via ssh
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>i tried "hg clone --pull" now, that seems to have worked
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: so, where is the list of deps?
12:59*andythenorth writes
13:00<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: you probably have them all anyway, except perhaps chameleon
13:00<Eddi|zuHause>that one i figured out :)
13:00<andythenorth>k
13:00<andythenorth>the rest are just nml deps
13:00<andythenorth>you have those
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>"no rule to make fish.grf. Stop"
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>seems to have made fish.nml fine, though
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, you should put this list in a readme.txt
13:03<Maya>123
13:03<TrueBrain>456
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: did you make modifications to the makefile or something?
13:04<andythenorth>yes
13:04<andythenorth>I switched it to a copy of the one that works for BANDIT
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: because it fails to call nmlc
13:04<andythenorth>hmm
13:04<andythenorth>that's interesting
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13:05<Eddi|zuHause>and the grf is 1.9MB :)
13:06<andythenorth>mine too :P
13:06<Matulla>hi st there a sheet where i can see the mmod of all citys
13:06<FLHerne>That's handy, they just added hg support to Dolphin :-D
13:07<andythenorth>hmm
13:07<Eddi|zuHause>and it's called "FISH FISH r886". is that intended? :)
13:07<andythenorth>code says yes :P
13:07<andythenorth>I should change the code :P
13:07<andythenorth>maybe I have make file stuff in .hgignore
13:07<andythenorth>not sure why else it wouldn't be in the repo
13:08<Eddi|zuHause>the ship list looks odd with my patch applied :)
13:09<andythenorth>yarp
13:09<andythenorth>finish the patch :)
13:10<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: so did it make, or did you call nmlc yourself?
13:10<Eddi|zuHause>i called nmlc myself
13:10<Maya>I've been experimenting on how to reduce the impact of broken down trains on the network by having frequent lane switches (L_L_R_R ML) is there anything else i could do? I was thinking about having some kind of "back signaling" but somehow i doubt it's worth the effort.
13:11<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you seem to be missing scripts/Makefile.nml
13:12<andythenorth>that's what *.nml in a .hgignore will do :P
13:13<Eddi|zuHause>hm, that's not what it should do. **.nml would do that
13:13<Eddi|zuHause>but *.nml should only ignore nml files in the base directory
13:13<Eddi|zuHause>(or i remember wrong)
13:14<andythenorth>hmm
13:14<andythenorth>well the file is now in the repo :)
13:14<andythenorth>I have syntax: glob
13:14<andythenorth>if that makes a difference
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>it makes a difference, but that's already what i expected :)
13:14<Pinkbeast>Maya: The trouble with lane switches is that trains will break down on them with distressing regularity
13:15<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: seems to build fine now
13:15<Maya>Hmm. *sigh* On to new ways to load balance my lines. :D The only other thing i can think of (at the moment) to reduce the impact of breakdowns.
13:16<Eddi|zuHause>Maya: usually removing the switchovers will increase efficiency
13:16<Pinkbeast>Mmm. Absent switches, at least a dead train can only block half the mainline.
13:17<Eddi|zuHause>Maya: because trains cannot detect whether the train ahead is broken down or not, they will switch in unwanted places as well
13:17<Eddi|zuHause>that reduces efficiency in all cases where a train is not broken down
13:18<Pinkbeast>Frankly, Maya, I suggest you recognise that breakdowns don't work at present, and give up on them. :-(
13:19<andythenorth>FLHerne: FISH 2 now builds on bundle server
13:19<Maya>I've been experimenting with adding them but haven't yet come to a conclusion. The problem is my trains usually prefer one of the lines which means (as time passes) (nearly) all trains are on the 50% which are blocked. But I guess thats why i should check my LB again. ... or come up with a way to do it for a start.
13:20<FLHerne>andythenorth: I'll fiddle with building it anyway :P
13:20<Maya>Hmmm might be an option too, to disable breakdowns. :S But first i'll give load balancing a chance (or multiplexing or whatever the heck you wanna call it).
13:20<Pinkbeast>progsigs can make reasonable load balancers without the entirely artifical tricks that used to be done.
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13:21<Wolf01>evenink
13:22<Pinkbeast>Although what would be really nice (he says with the gay abandon of someone not proposing to write it) would be prototypical caution aspects which the pathfinder would naturally avoid.
13:22<andythenorth>FLHerne: http://chameleon.repoze.org/docs/latest/
13:23<FLHerne>andythenorth: Thanks
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13:33<andythenorth>oops
13:33<andythenorth>went in the suggestion forum :P
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13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: translators * r24456 /trunk/src/lang/ (afrikaans.txt hungarian.txt):
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: afrikaans - 2 changes by telanus
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: hungarian - 32 changes by IPG
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14:02<FLHerne>andythenorth: FISH building fails :-(
14:02<andythenorth>error?
14:02<FLHerne>Error in language file "lang/dutch.lng": "lang/dutch.lng", line 1: Invalid grflangid
14:02<FLHerne>nmlc: "input", line 341: Unknown property name: cargo_allow_refit
14:03<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: is your nml up to date?
14:03<FLHerne>Ah, that might be it. I only have stable atm
14:03<__ln__>someone might be interested: http://www.assemblytv.net/pages/streamtest?layout=light
14:06<FLHerne>Worked now :-)
14:10<Varazir>is there a way to change default save folder ?
14:11<Varazir>I have 2 computers and using dropbox to shares saves
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14:14<andythenorth>hoo
14:14<andythenorth>https://www.pythonanywhere.com/
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14:18<@Alberth>evenink
14:18<andythenorth>hi Alberth
14:24<Wolf01>hello Alberth
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15:01<FLHerne>andythenorth: I know I've asked before, but what's the limit on the number of industries? (as opposed to cargoes)
15:01<andythenorth>64 ish
15:01<FLHerne>How many does FIRS have currently?
15:02<andythenorth>dunno
15:02<andythenorth>internet knows though http://www.tt-foundry.com/sets/FIRS/schema/economies
15:03<FLHerne>Ah. So what's the last cargo going to be? :P
15:04*FLHerne starts game with new FISH
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15:04<andythenorth>FLHerne: last cargo slot is empty
15:04<andythenorth>by design
15:04<FLHerne>Or maybe not - is FISH still savegame compatible?
15:05<andythenorth>approximately yes
15:05<FLHerne>What for?
15:05<andythenorth>for being empty
15:05<andythenorth>someone might need it
15:05<andythenorth>like NARS 2 does
15:05<FLHerne>I see
15:06<FLHerne>Is new FISH autorefittable?
15:06<andythenorth>mostly
15:06<andythenorth>try it and see ;)
15:06<FLHerne>:D
15:06<FLHerne>I'll use it in my current game then, I can have more mega-transfer stations :P
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16:14<FLHerne>andythenorth: Why did you remove the sand platforms from CHIPS? Now I haven't got anything to use with quarries :-(
16:14<andythenorth>use the mud platforms
16:15<andythenorth>and use a recent FIRS, the quarries have mud
16:15<FLHerne>I have 0.7.5 atm. Do you mean nightlies?
16:16<andythenorth>yes
16:16<andythenorth>nightly FIRS has a number of improvements
16:17<andythenorth>actually 0.7.5 has most of them
16:17<FLHerne>Examples?
16:18<FLHerne>Also, is it save-compatible with 0.7.5 currently?
16:20<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/revisions
16:20<andythenorth>probably save compatible
16:23<FLHerne>Aw, you fixed the hotels :-(
16:24<FLHerne>Could you give those a parameter or something? They're great for making small towns/islands/whatever economically serveable :P
16:24<andythenorth>nope
16:24<andythenorth>reported as a bug; now fixed
16:24<andythenorth>code your own if you want that feature
16:24<andythenorth>not hard
16:24<andythenorth>;)
16:24<andythenorth>you coded newobjects right?
16:24<FLHerne>Aye.
16:25<FLHerne>Almost got the m4 sorted now :P
16:25<FLHerne>Perhaps a mini-hotel with 1/4 the production and 1/10 the price? :P
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16:42<frosch123>night
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16:44<@Alberth>good night all
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16:48<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: shouldn't it be the other way around?
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: otherwise you could just place 4 mini-thingies and have the same production for less than half the price
17:08<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: No. It should be assumed that the user won't cheat unless they want to :P
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17:20<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: or use https://rhodecode.openttdcoop.org
17:20<Ammler>we need to fix hgweb
17:20<@Terkhen>good night
17:28<Ammler>Gute Nacht
17:44<FLHerne>Random bug report: Choosing a different 'fixed' autorefit cargo changes the order from 'full load any' to 'full load'. Anyone else have this?
17:51<Supercheese>Checking
17:54<Supercheese>Confirmed on my end as well, r23495
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18:06<Wolf01>'night all
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---Logclosed Fri Aug 03 00:00:49 2012