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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-08-04

---Logopened Sat Aug 04 00:00:52 2012
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03:43<@Alberth>moin
03:45<andythenorth>bonjour Alberth
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04:12<@Terkhen>good morning
04:13<andythenorth>hi Terkhen
04:24<telanus>hallo
04:26<@Terkhen>hi telanus
04:36-!-TheDude [~Miranda@2.237.broadband7.iol.cz] has joined #openttd
04:37<TheDude>morning
04:37<@Alberth>moin
04:37<TheDude>hi andythenorth, I have few problems with your FIRS
04:38<TheDude>1st - cargo ID at TT foundry are not all correct (recyclables)
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04:48<@Alberth>how not correct?
04:50<@Alberth>that is, it fails in what way?
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05:04<TheDude>in TTfoundry http://www.tt-foundry.com/sets/FIRS/schema/cargos is RCYC ID as 1E, but in FIRS it is 1F
05:06<andythenorth>plausible
05:06*andythenorth will check
05:07<andythenorth>meh
05:07<andythenorth>can't remember which slot NARS 2 regearing takes
05:08<TheDude>but I guess I can just use good cargo table, and I dont need to care about this
05:09<TheDude>and I thiunk not or cargo classes are correct on tt foundry
05:09<TheDude>also, upon what is decided the definition of sugar cane and sugar beet?
05:09<Supercheese>tropical vs nontropical, no?
05:10<andythenorth>looks like regearing is in 30 (1E) I think
05:10<andythenorth>I'll update the site
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05:10<TheDude>thanks
05:10<andythenorth>done
05:11<andythenorth>cargo classes on tt-foundry are not correct
05:11<andythenorth>I'll link them to wiki instead
05:11<TheDude>I am updating my set after almost a year, and I forgot lots of the system I chose
05:11<@Alberth>a good chance to document how it works now :)
05:12<TheDude>well, I have this lovely excel tables in colours, but it is quite messy
05:15<andythenorth>TheDude: http://213.133.67.181:8192/zz_dangerous_things/tt_foundry/sets/FIRS/schema/cargos
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05:16<andythenorth>TheDude Sugar Beet and Sugarcane are different cargos
05:17<andythenorth>beet is non-tropic, cane is tropice
05:17<andythenorth>hmm
05:17<andythenorth>tropice <- a merge of arctic and tropic :P
05:17<TheDude>very logical :D
05:17<TheDude>thanks for update
05:18<TheDude>would you know how is George doing? havent heard of him for some time
05:18<NataS>i want global regions
05:18<andythenorth>no you don't
05:18<andythenorth>you think you do
05:18<NataS>with climate varation by latitude and rain shadow
05:18<andythenorth>but it's yet another case of "more looks like better, but isn't"
05:19<andythenorth>make choices
05:19<andythenorth>everything all at once is boring
05:19<andythenorth>it makes the game flat and lack texture in the long run
05:19<NataS>at very least, I'd want deserts in tropic maps to use rainshadows
05:19<NataS>and not really
05:19<NataS>it would be intresting to see varrying terrain
05:20<NataS>I don't like temprate because it's all green
05:20<NataS>while Arctic has variable snowlines
05:20<NataS>and Tropic has jungles, farmland, and deserts
05:20*andythenorth wonders how the python conversion of FIRS is going
05:20<NataS>if I could have them all in one map, it would be nice varation
05:21<NataS>I don't see how getting more than one biome on a map would make it lack texture
05:21<NataS>that's a contradiction.
05:21<andythenorth>every new game you start is the same then
05:21<NataS>...no
05:22<NataS>maps would still be diffrent
05:22<@planetmaker>moin
05:22<NataS>also, the ability to make a map mostly one biome would exist
05:22<andythenorth>it's an apt case of 'more is better' fallacy
05:22<NataS>like you could have a tropic map with snowcovered mountains.
05:22<andythenorth>as per any kid who gets a free run at 'have as many icecream flavours as you like'
05:22<NataS>well whatever fallacy you are using needs a fancy name
05:22<NataS>because your logic is pretty falicious right now
05:22<@planetmaker>TheDude: something I wondered about: you(?) seem to make a new bananas entry for each of the luukland trainsets. That's not required. And updating is also easier, if you keep the grfID and just increase the internal version of your newgrf
05:23<NataS>okay
05:23<NataS>having the ability to chose many ice cream flavors, and combinations thereof
05:23<NataS>that's good
05:23<NataS>eating all the flavors at once
05:23<andythenorth>is 'falicious' something illegal in 15 states :)
05:23<NataS>that's bad
05:23<NataS>but having the ability to and actualy doing are diffrent things
05:23<NataS>you should be able to do anything
05:23<NataS>if it's a bad idea, that's the user's problem
05:24<@planetmaker>ice cream would be a good toyland cargo... for the fridge vehicles and wagons
05:24<NataS>anyways
05:24<NataS>Alpine climate exists
05:24<andythenorth>more climates in one map <= new map array?
05:24<NataS>alpine+tropic would be cool
05:25<NataS>as would a map maker than can simulate rainshadows
05:25<NataS>instead of random deserts
05:25<@planetmaker>andythenorth: yes and no. I needs one or two more bits
05:25<NataS>which are ugly
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05:26<@planetmaker>which might work with some bit shuffling. At least in the vast majority of cases. Not sure all cases can be solved easily
05:26<TheDude>planetmaker, the second entry made Luukland himself, dont know why
05:26<@planetmaker>andythenorth: already one bit move would give you 8 instead of 4 different climate zones
05:27<TheDude>he wanted some update by his own
05:27<@planetmaker>hm, ok. I just wondered about the multitude of independent citybuilders and trainsets there
05:27<@planetmaker>it's not really necessary and quite confusing to the average joe user, I'd say
05:28<TheDude>are you able to delete grf from that list?
05:28<TheDude>there are some that will not be used anymore
05:28<@planetmaker>well, we don't delete. But it's feasible to set the (OpenTTD) versio nrequirements such that it is invisible unless you need it for a savegame
05:29<@planetmaker>which is actually also something the authors can do themselves
05:29<@planetmaker>just set a very low max. OpenTTD version
05:29<TheDude>good to know
05:29<TheDude>thanks
05:29<@planetmaker>np
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05:35<@Alberth>planetmaker: fridge vehicles are not good, you don't see the ice cream then
05:35<@planetmaker>:-) true. A transport like bubbles is better
05:35<@planetmaker>ready-to-serve ice cream cones
05:37<@Alberth>hmm, perhaps a quite literal 'fridge', with lots of frozen water hanging from the wagon when it carries ice creams
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05:39<@Alberth>hello Wolf01
05:39<Wolf01>hai!
05:39<@Alberth>you're in a good mood, sunny weather there?
05:43<Wolf01>yeah, and it's too much hot and humid
05:44<Wolf01>and I'm on vacation, finally :D
05:46*planetmaker envies Wolf01
05:46<@planetmaker>and greets him, too :-)
05:49<andythenorth>just make the ice cream vans transparent
05:49<andythenorth>encased in ice
05:49<Rubidium>why would you envy Wolf01? Don't you get holidays? I wouldn't like it if my holiday were too hot and too humid
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05:50<@planetmaker>I get holidays in 6 days :-)
05:50<@planetmaker>Next Friday I'm heading off to Switzerland ;-)
05:50<drac_boy>hi
05:50<@Alberth>andythenorth: good idea, transport a big piece of ice!
05:50<@planetmaker>hi drac_boy
05:50<drac_boy>hm is andythenorth still trying to code too much as usual? :)
05:51<@planetmaker>yes :-P
05:51<@planetmaker>though I'd call it "just right"
05:51<@Alberth>don't know, this is just about the best way to transport ice creams in toyland
05:52*drac_boy has been thinking about slowly getting back to my grf that I had to put off due to other things before as well tho
05:52<drac_boy>stil got the whole tracking table and everything
05:52<andythenorth>hmm
05:52<andythenorth>improved docks?
05:54<@Alberth>it looks like a hacky solution to me; if you can move the ship into a station tile, imho you can also extend the station by one tile
05:54<Rubidium>oh, a dev camp with Ammler and planetmaker? ;)
05:54<@planetmaker>hm, sadly not quite :-)
05:55<@Alberth>Rubidium: not a 3k party, but a 3k week :)
05:55<@planetmaker>:D
06:02<drac_boy>btw what are you working on now andythenorth?
06:08*planetmaker assumes "stuff" ;-)
06:12<@Alberth>or *various newgrfs*
06:12<drac_boy>Alberth exactly what is he working on anyway? I only recall FIRS
06:12<@Alberth>firs, fish, heqs, pixa, bandit
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06:13<drac_boy>pixa?
06:14<@Alberth>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=58543&hilit=pixa
06:16<drac_boy>mm ok
06:18*andythenorth off
06:18<andythenorth>byw
06:18<andythenorth>bye*
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06:23<drac_boy>so what are the rest of you doing now anyway? :P
06:24<@planetmaker>"stuff" ;-)
06:25<drac_boy>planetmaker so basically you have no idea what you're doing? :)
06:27<@planetmaker>I do.
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06:34<@Alberth>usually 5 things at the same time :)
06:34<@Alberth>hi frosch123
06:35<frosch123>hai albert :)
06:36<drac_boy>Alberth heh...well either way I'm looking at whats left to finish yet in tracking table...sort out some ongoing webcoding issues..and otherwise checking a few different webshops I have to yet order from
06:36<drac_boy>:)
06:42<@Alberth>ok :) /me is chatting to several people, reading forums, debugging/coding freerct, looking at zbase, zbasebuild, zbuild, reporting x11 crash and chat client problems, and thinking to make some black liquid called coffee :)
06:42<drac_boy>freerct? hadn't realized that was still in some progress...might have to look it up
06:42*drac_boy still has rct and one of its expansion pak yet
06:43<@Alberth>me being the major developer, and working on zb* implies freerct is not going forward much :)
06:44<@planetmaker>same with zephyris :-P
06:44<@Alberth>zephyris can't do much in freerct, except make graphics that cannot be used yet :p
06:45<@Alberth>so his time is better spent in zbase :)
06:45<@planetmaker>:-)
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06:48<drac_boy>hmm freerct could be interesting..if its just as low on hardware requirement too
06:48<drac_boy>btw is it windows or windows/linux?
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06:49<@Terkhen>why only those options? it could be linux only too :)
06:51<@Alberth>it is, currently :)
06:52<@Alberth>I am quite sure you could make it work at windows too, but nobody has done that yet
06:53<@Terkhen>I don't think that's a pressing issue, as soon as openrct starts to work someone interested(tm) will probably appear to port it to windows
06:54<@Alberth>yep, in fact I already had two emails about 'helping programming', but they both disappeared after I explained the first thing they needed to do is make it work at their OS :)
06:55<@Terkhen>people gets scared easily nowadays
06:55<drac_boy>heh heh
06:56<drac_boy>I wouldn't mind help testing it on the other hand :)
06:56<@Terkhen>making it compile on MinGW would probably be simple
06:58<drac_boy>hmm one little question tho...is it independent gui or does it depend on any particular DE?
06:59<@Alberth>it uses SDL for displaying the gui
06:59<drac_boy>mm sdl thats ok, as long as it does not do that 'does not work with most current sdl' bug that certain game are known too well for :s :)
07:00<drac_boy>well either way, I'm still free for testing at some point
07:03<@Alberth>come back in a year or so :)
07:03<@Alberth>currently there is no 'game' to speak of
07:03<drac_boy>:p
07:03*drac_boy will just play rct then ;)
07:04<@Alberth>I thought you wanted to code a grf ;)
07:05<drac_boy>alberth..actually its just tracking table and some sprites...going leave most of nfo to someone else
07:05<@Alberth>everybody is doing nml nowadays :)
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07:07<mohwaqas12>Hey all
07:07<@Alberth>hi
07:07<drac_boy>alberth...try run nml in the patch tho so... :)
07:07<@planetmaker>drac_boy: yes. so what?
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07:08<Rubidium>chill should just update his patch
07:08<@planetmaker>:-)
07:09<mohwaqas12>Hey , is there any other development manual for openttd or i have to read doxygen docs
07:10<@Alberth>the source code? :)
07:10<@planetmaker>:D
07:10<Rubidium>there are some (outdated) bits on the wiki
07:10<drac_boy>rubidium even if he did there'll still be a good need for keeping nfo parallel with nml tho, just saying :)
07:11<Rubidium>but definitely no high level designs or something
07:11<drac_boy>alberth good one :P
07:13<mohwaqas12>okay sure, i m still setting up develpment environment :)
07:14<drac_boy>:) me don't have much of one but I'm ok with it anyhow
07:28<__ln__>http://www.emptyage.com/post/28679875595/yes-i-was-hacked-hard
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07:39<@Alberth>the joys of connecting everything with everything else :)
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08:04<mohwaqas12>hey guys, i have set up openttd development environment and compiling it in eclipse for the first time. where should i start looking to learn more about it?
08:09<frosch123>what stuff do you want to learn?
08:09<frosch123>ottd is big, noone knows it complete :p
08:10<mohwaqas12>yes i know, i just started it , so i dont know myself where to start
08:11<frosch123>well, you have a specific goal?
08:12<frosch123>https://secure.openttd.org/wiki/Todo_list <- or do you want to take a look at the todo list
08:12<frosch123>(but mind that for some of the easy tasks there are already patches on flyspray)
08:13<mohwaqas12>okay thanks for that, i will look into it
08:14<frosch123>if you are interested in some task; ask first before working on it
08:14<frosch123>as i said, some are already laying around in some fs task
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08:50<mohwaqas12>i have compiled openttd, do i have to compile opengfx to make it run
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08:52<FLHerne>mohwaqas12: You can use a downloaded build fine :-)
08:52<mohwaqas12>FLHerne: so where do i have to keep them
08:52<@Terkhen>mohwaqas12: no, you only need to download it and place it in the correct folder, check the readme for details
08:52<mohwaqas12>okay thanks, i thought i must compile them too
08:53<FLHerne>mohwaqas12: If you built current trunk, you want a nightly OGFX: http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/opengfx/nightlies/
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08:55<mohwaqas12>okay thanks,i am downloading them
09:00<mohwaqas12>does it also requires original graphics
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09:02<@Terkhen>mohwaqas12: no
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10:46<telanus>does firs replace openttd's industries or only parts of it?
10:48<Super_Random>I believe firs replaces most of the industries, but I know it leaves some of them
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10:51<frosch123>i think it replaces all of them
10:51<frosch123>it also replaces all cargos
10:52<frosch123>firs is a "maxed" industry set :)
10:54<telanus>Openttd's wood industry is still available, as I found out, as lumber in firs is translated in afrikaans the same as wood, thus I had 2 entries of "hout" in my refit option
10:56<@Alberth>it uses some of openttd original industry graphics
10:57<telanus>I updated my firs translation to stop the confusion for afrikaans players
10:58<telanus>http://goput.it/av8.jpg: English & http://goput.it/mcb.jpg for afrikaans
11:14<Devroush>hi I was wondering, are there any new features planned for 1.2.2?
11:14<Devroush>or will it be a bug fix release
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11:19<Rubidium>is there some simple/standard (async) wrapper in python that allows you to send structures (dicts etc) over the network without bothering with doing multiple recvs until everything is read? In other words, a wrapper where you get the structure when it has been completely received?
11:29<Super_Random>I just love signals..
11:34<@Alberth>Rubidium: Twisted is the defacto-standard async programming framework, except it is somewhat ..... twisted
11:35<Rubidium>so it's not simple
11:36<@Alberth>it's completely event driven
11:37<@Alberth>so your process steps get all broken into separate pieces that trigger events when ready
11:38<@Alberth>they say it is simple, but I never did enough with it to really grasp it
11:39<@Alberth>I have done other things with async, where you basically collect all IO-handles you want to wait for, wait for some event from one of those handles, wake up and handle it, and loop
11:39<@Alberth>unfortunately, async programming is always very messy.
11:40<Rubidium>all I see in the examples is 'lineReceived'
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>so you just pickle/unpickle things?
11:43<@Alberth>lineReceived is for line-based streams
11:44<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: it's for network code, so when a page says within the first section "not intended to be secure against erroneous or maliciously constructed data" I immediately red-flag that
11:47<@Alberth>you have several connections I assume?
11:48<Rubidium>yep
11:48<Rubidium>not that likely in reality, but still
11:48<@Alberth>doing anything else besides IO ?
11:49<Rubidium>credentials check
11:49<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: so you need another wrapper to ensure the data is not maliciously altered?
11:49<Rubidium>validating received stuff against a database
11:49<Rubidium>putting stuff into a database
11:50<Rubidium>validating massive, as in 200+ MB, incoming data streams for certain characteristics
11:51<Eddi|zuHause>not sure what that even means
11:51<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: maliciously altered... okay, but what about maliciously constructed
11:51<Rubidium>after all, expect the worst coming from the network (in this case internet)
11:54<@Alberth>pickle is useless
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12:06<@Alberth>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1624/ this is the simplest approach I have found so far
12:06<@Alberth>it lacks many details, including creation of new jobs, but hopefully you get the idea
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12:49<Sacro>http://www.reddit.com/r/openttd/comments/xo1jp/121_bug_openmsx_fail/
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13:11<mohwaqas12>how to compile openttd with debugging symbols in order to debug using gdb
13:15<@Alberth>./configure --enable-debug and then 'make' :)
13:15<@Alberth>hmm, perhaps first a 'make clean' to ensure you rebuild everything
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: almost everything is simple if you leave out the details :p
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13:19<Eddi|zuHause>(if it's not, you should probably not try to program it)
13:24<@Alberth>:)
13:24<@Alberth>If it's not, you did not abstract away enough details :p
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>http://cdn3.spiegel.de/images/image-384246-panoV9free-bjet.jpg
13:26<@Alberth>:)
13:29<frosch123>mohwaqas12: ./configure --enable-debug=3 to also disable optimisations, so debug is easier
13:31<Eddi|zuHause>why using iDevices (or anything with "remote wipe") is a seriously bad idea: http://www.emptyage.com/post/28679875595/yes-i-was-hacked-hard
13:32<frosch123>[13:28] <__ln__> http://www.emptyage.com/post/28679875595/yes-i-was-hacked-hard
13:32<frosch123>sorry :p
13:32<Eddi|zuHause>ok, i wasn't really paying attention today :p
13:33*Alberth fixes his configure script
13:34<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: when switching between debug/release, no make clean is necessary
13:34<@Alberth>oh, it rebuilds everything by itself? smart system
13:35*Alberth pats ./configure
13:35<Eddi|zuHause>it keeps the object files separate, so you can switch back and forth easily
13:36<@Alberth>oh, even better than rebuilding :)
13:36<@Alberth>I never build releases :D
13:38<frosch123>yeah, release builds are only needed to debug optimisation bugs
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19:59<Wolf01>'night
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