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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-08-06

---Logopened Mon Aug 06 00:00:58 2012
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01:36<__ln__>touchdown
01:36<Supercheese>First image is tiny
01:36<Supercheese>64x64
01:37-!-Super_Random [~kvirc@75-102-176-79.d2.itctel.com] has quit [Quit: Mars, we has it]
01:37<Supercheese>Here's the 256x256
01:37<Supercheese>lots of dust on Mars
01:38<__ln__>they should be cleaning it more often
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01:43<Supercheese>Good thing there aren't any cats on mars
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01:58<NGC3982>Curiosity just landed.
01:58<NGC3982>Oh
01:58<NGC3982>Im way late.
01:58<NGC3982>:D
01:59<telanus>Supercheese: So the Killer Cats of Mars is just a myth? :D
01:59<NGC3982>I watched the stream on the bus. :/
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02:35<Eddi|zuHause>i hope your bus didn't touch down
02:39<NGC3982>It got tangled in the winch wires.
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03:16<@planetmaker>moin
03:16<NGC3982>planetmaker: morning!
03:17<NGC3982>planetmaker: I do hope you have not missed the morning events.
03:17-!-TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has joined #openttd
03:17<@planetmaker>I did miss them. And missed them well. Sleep was good
03:19<NGC3982>Gosh darnit'.
03:19*NGC3982 shakes the foundation of out PM.
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03:30<Eddi|zuHause>there's gonna be reruns!
03:35-!-LordAro [~LordAro@host81-155-105-242.range81-155.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd
03:36<LordAro>http://www.openttd.org is down?
03:38<LordAro>it is: http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/www.openttd.org
03:38<LordAro>^ TureBrain
03:38<LordAro>TrueBrain
03:38<LordAro>dammit :L
03:38<Supercheese>down for me too
03:39<__ln__>LordAro: watch nasa.gov instead
03:39<LordAro>i am :D
03:40<LordAro>it worked! it worked!
03:40*LordAro dances
03:47<Eddi|zuHause>could watch nasa.de but it won't be nearly as interesting :p
03:48<@planetmaker>:-D
03:48<@planetmaker>I think there's about 10 orders of magnitude in between
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03:50<__ln__>looks like they are running gnome2.
03:54<LordAro>better than gnome3 :)
03:56<TrueBrain>our whole (physical) server got rebooted
03:59-!-valhallasw [~valhallas@wirenat2.strw.leidenuniv.nl] has joined #openttd
04:01<TrueBrain>I love OVH
04:02<TrueBrain>they detected the non-responsiveness of the server
04:02<TrueBrain>went down there
04:02<TrueBrain>"No information on the screen. No response to the keyboard. Restarted the server hardware. Boot OK. Ping OK"
04:02<TrueBrain>now that is quality :)
04:05<@planetmaker>hm. So action before we noticed it?
04:06<TrueBrain>before _I_ noticed it :P
04:06<TrueBrain>but yes :P
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04:07<@planetmaker>I'll say 'thank you' in my monthly e-mail to them :-)
04:07<NGC3982>I don't understand. How is a freezed server a good quality job? :p
04:07<TrueBrain>hardware freezes
04:07<TrueBrain>that happens
04:07<TrueBrain>like breathing
04:08<TrueBrain>some things you have to accept in life
04:08<TrueBrain>how you go by those things, that defines you
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04:09<TrueBrain>we have had hosts, where it took 24h and 5 calls before they pressed the darn button on the machine .. so yeah .... ;)
04:10<@planetmaker>:-)
04:10<@planetmaker>ovh seems to have some good automatism in place
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04:29<__ln__>lietutenant uhura on nasatv
04:30<__ln__>lieutenant even
04:31<NGC3982>:O
04:32<TrueBrain>hmm, there, fixes the few services that didn't autoboot. Did I miss any service of OpenTTD that is not working atm?
04:32<__ln__>gopher
04:33*peter1138 takes __ln__ outside and leaves him there.
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04:37<TrueBrain>come on buddy, where are you .....
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04:37<TrueBrain>there you are
04:37<TrueBrain>who is a good boy?
04:37*peter1138 gives DorpsGek a bikkit
04:37*planetmaker hugs TrueBrain "good boy, good boy. Have a cookie :-)"
04:38<@DorpsGek>I am a good boy ! ! ! ! See See See ! ! !
04:38-!-LordAro [~LordAro@host81-155-105-242.range81-155.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd
04:38<LordAro>"... 24h and 5 calls" <-- was that the last time? http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=51632
04:39<TrueBrain>okay, I cannot find a service that doesn't reply to my queries, so I guess that is all :)
04:40<TrueBrain>only 1 VPS did not boot correctly, which I didn't expect it to :P
04:40<TrueBrain>the rest survived the reboot flawless :D :D :)
04:40<@planetmaker>good job in setup, I say :-)
04:40<TrueBrain>its getting there
04:40<peter1138>FLAWLESS VICTORY
04:43<TrueBrain>hmm ... as last thing, I thought, lets see if MySQL has any damage
04:43<TrueBrain>bad move ..
04:45<TrueBrain>some bugs never get solved in software I am afraid
04:46<peter1138>Yeah, journalling wasn't the holy grail...
04:47<TrueBrain>owh, now even the recovery tool crashes ...
04:47<peter1138>Although I guess it helps a lot, heh.
04:49-!-FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd
04:53<TrueBrain>bascailly, the bananas_download table always crashes (its an ARCHIVE)
04:53<TrueBrain>when MySQL is not nicely closed, it totally fucks up
04:53<TrueBrain>the recovery tools are ..... sad
04:53<TrueBrain>for example, the archive is now 10 GiB in size
04:54<Warod>*ahem* psql *ahem*
04:56<TrueBrain>really useful feedback atm, tnx :P
04:56<TrueBrain>lolz
04:56<LordAro>i guess that's related to the fact that the content download list is empty :L
04:56<TrueBrain>LordAro: the MySQL is not running; depends how you define relation ;)
04:57<Warod>TrueBrain: But one always has to twist the knife when it hurts most or it'll get ignored!
05:01<Eddi|zuHause>a relation is a set of tuples :)
05:06-!-mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-28-241.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd
05:08<NGC3982>"A relation is a set of couples".
05:08<NGC3982>A Feynman quote, if i recall.
05:08<NGC3982>:3
05:11<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't learned this stuff in english, so this kind of wordplay usually eludes me...
05:13<TrueBrain>right, the recovery tool segfaults, leaving the recovered table as useless as the original
05:13<TrueBrain>random memory reads ftw
05:14<TrueBrain>seriously, so lovely .... can I kill it?
05:14<@planetmaker>lovely
05:25<Warod>TrueBrain: If everything else fails, you might want to check if MariaDB has more useful recovery tools available.
05:25<TrueBrain>we should never have used ARCHIVE table
05:25<TrueBrain>it has so many bad reviews
05:25<TrueBrain>meh
05:25<TrueBrain>c'est la vie
05:26<Eddi|zuHause>tel aviv
05:26<TrueBrain>okay, everything should be back on its feet
05:26<TrueBrain>lemme know if there are any issues
05:26<TrueBrain>I am unavailable for the next few hours, so MWHAHAHAHAHA :P
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05:31<@Terkhen>good morning
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05:41<@planetmaker>moin Terkhen
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08:48<Eddi|zuHause>"ReallyDoDrawString" who the hell named this function? :p
08:49<Eddi|zuHause>bwhah... the SETX handling scares me...
08:58<+glx><Eddi|zuHause> "ReallyDoDrawString" who the hell named this function? :p <-- svn blame ;)
08:58<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think i will be coding the "ignore setx" part of the purchase list task...
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09:20<LordAro>is wikipedia down for anyone else?
09:21<Eddi|zuHause>who needs wikipedia anyway...
09:21<Eddi|zuHause>"Our servers are currently experiencing a technical problem. This is probably temporary and should be fixed soon. Please try again in a few minutes."
09:21<LordAro>yeah...
09:22<LordAro>the whole lot is down - wikimedia.org is down also
09:30<Warod>uuu
09:35<TrueBrain>it wasn't me this time :P
09:35<TrueBrain>I promise :)
09:48<Ammler>TrueBrain: please fix the internet
09:58<TrueBrain>I am sorry, it is fundementally broken :(
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10:21<LordAro>hmmm... it's back, but it's still a bit broken...
10:23-!-Super_Random [~kvirc@75-102-176-79.d2.itctel.com] has joined #openttd
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10:30<andythenorth>FLHerne: no scaled buy menu sprites ;)
10:30<andythenorth>very very wrong ;)
10:32-!-dlr365 [~Doug@d75-159-143-33.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
10:37<Eddi|zuHause>"HEQS 1.1.0: invalid CB 23 result 0xCB4"
10:37<Eddi|zuHause>when opening the tram menu
10:37<Eddi|zuHause>purchase menu
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10:38<andythenorth>meh
10:38<andythenorth>thought that was solved :P
10:39<andythenorth>it's buy menu text cb
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not sure if my HEQS is the newest
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10:44<Eddi|zuHause>www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Unbenannt,%201.%20Jan%201999_1.png <-- i doubt those truck sprite offsets wrong because of my patch...
10:45<andythenorth>probably pre-existing
10:45-!-peter1138 [~peter@petern.bnsnet.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
10:53<Eddi|zuHause>that does not look right: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1628/
10:54-!-peter1138 [~peter@176-35-84-218.xdsl.murphx.net] has joined #openttd
10:55<Eddi|zuHause>hm... so i have two options: make the road depot wider, or make the road purchase list narrower
10:55<Eddi|zuHause>(by default)
10:58<andythenorth>wider depot
11:00<Eddi|zuHause>www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Quigley%20Co.,%202.%20Jan%201999.png <-- something fails here
11:00<Eddi|zuHause>i suspect newgrf confusion
11:01<Ammler>TrueBrain: thanks, internet seems to work again
11:01<Eddi|zuHause>how do i output the vehicle name through a printf?
11:01<NGC3982>Seriosly.
11:01<NGC3982>"umrüstbar".
11:02<Eddi|zuHause>what's wrong with that word?
11:06<NGC3982>Nothing.
11:06<NGC3982>Absolutely nothing.
11:06<Eddi|zuHause>i sense sarcasm...
11:07<NGC3982>Not really.
11:07<NGC3982>I really, really love the poetry of German and Dutch
11:07-!-LordAro [~LordAro@host81-155-105-242.range81-155.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:08<Eddi|zuHause>i once read this article about an english comedy writer, who spent some time in germany, and totally fell on his face in the early days, because none of his jokes were funny when translated to german
11:09<Eddi|zuHause>because they focused too much on english language features like grammar or vocabulary
11:09<Eddi|zuHause>instead of things that are universally funny across languages
11:09<NGC3982>Indeed.
11:10<NGC3982>I just love how the German and Dutch (do i spell linguistic definitions with a capital letter?) have such a ..panáche.
11:10<NGC3982>At least when compared to Swedish, wich is a bit similar but SO boring in comparison.
11:10<Eddi|zuHause>in english, you capitalize things that are derived from names (persons or locations)
11:11<Eddi|zuHause>which is actually "strange", because that means in english you sometimes capitalize things that are not capitalized in german
11:12<NGC3982>It's like
11:12<NGC3982>"föroreing"
11:12<NGC3982>== "umweltverschmutzung".
11:12<Eddi|zuHause>how do you mean?
11:13<NGC3982>The swedish word is made up by two definitions that makes a somewhat logical explanation to what the word means.
11:14<Eddi|zuHause>need more context.
11:14<NGC3982>The german word is fantasticly beautiful, and doesn't care if it's 30 letters long as long as it explains what on earth the person refers to.
11:15<NGC3982>For me, as a Swede, german sounds like poetry with some sort of jaw handicap.
11:15<Eddi|zuHause>there are way longer words than that :)
11:15<NGC3982>hehe, i know.
11:15<NGC3982>H*
11:16*NGC3982 named his business server 'Schadenfreude'
11:17<NGC3982>"Rindfleischetikettierungsüberwachungsaufgabenübertragungsgesetz"
11:17<NGC3982>For Pete' sake! It's like William Blake fell into a dictionary.
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11:18<Eddi|zuHause>ok. law-german is a seriously special case :p
11:18<Eddi|zuHause>PS: that is the "short form" of the law name :)
11:20-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-4d0096af.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
11:21<Super_Random>HOLY MUTHER TRUCKER
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11:37<Eddi|zuHause>"This is the official short title of the law; its full name is Gesetz zur Übertragung der Aufgaben für die Überwachung der Rinderkennzeichnung und Rindfleischetikettierung" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rinderkennzeichnungs-_und_Rindfleischetikettierungsüberwachungsaufgabenübertragungsgesetz)
11:40-!-MNIM [~mBuntu@ip5452ffad.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #openttd
11:41<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: other authors will disagree, but if I have to tweak sets to deal with adjusted buy menu, it's not the end of the world
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: yes, but here it actually fails to widen the buy menu
11:41<andythenorth>so I see :)
11:41<andythenorth>can't help with that right now
11:41<andythenorth>although I could test your patch later this evening if that helps
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the latest version is here: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/resize_purchase_list.diff
11:46<Eddi|zuHause>the only changes so far since the previous version are removal of outcommented lines, and reducing the lower limit from 60 to 32
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12:25<NGC3982>"I can be reached on this e-mail most hours of the day. Though, for more acute inquiries, please refer to my private phone:"
12:25<NGC3982>Does that sound correct?
12:25<NGC3982>It's been a while since i made business mails in english.
12:34<FLHerne>andythenorth: So what's wrong with scaled sprites (with consistent scaling for all ships)?
12:34<FLHerne>Sorry for very late reply, was a bit distracted gaming :P
12:35<NGC3982>"We are about to set up the first mystery calls, and i will make sure to contact you with questions, if any as such arise. Though, i see most of the information regarding the calls is already well defined in the attached documents."
12:35<NGC3982>Sound like crpa.
12:35<FLHerne>At in-game size, there's no way you'll get enough ship in-frame to be informative :P
12:37<andythenorth>FLHerne: scaled buy menu sprites just isn't done
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: that sounds like a spam mail
12:38<FLHerne>andythenorth: But why not? :P
12:38<andythenorth>it just isn't
12:38<andythenorth>there's no why
12:38<andythenorth>it's like asking "why isn't English actually French"
12:38<FLHerne>Stupidly huge vehicles isn't done either, except in FISH :P
12:38<andythenorth>potato / potato
12:39<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: AV8 has oversized aircraft
12:39<andythenorth>why is a scaled sprite more informative?
12:39<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: Ah, the airships :P
12:39<andythenorth>a scaled sprite is 100% a lie in one dimension
12:39<andythenorth>and a lie isn't very informative
12:40<FLHerne>andythenorth: Because looking at the first 1/3rd of a ship - the bit which often looks identical anyway - is totally uninformative
12:40<andythenorth>[shrug]
12:40<andythenorth>this is a known issue
12:40<FLHerne>At least with scaled ones, you can see how the ship's size compares to other FISH ships
12:41<andythenorth>oh, scale them all consistently?
12:41<andythenorth>rather than to fit the space?
12:41*FLHerne looks at 17:34
12:41<FLHerne>:P
12:41<andythenorth>yeah sorry
12:41<andythenorth>missed that
12:42<FLHerne>Cropping uninteresting bits out (as I suggested on the forum) would break that again though :P
12:42<FLHerne>Perhaps that's a stupid idea...
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12:45<andythenorth>stupid irc client crashed
12:46<FLHerne>Which one? :P
12:46<andythenorth>colloquy
12:47<andythenorth>scaling sprites large enough to fit the largest ships
12:47<andythenorth>leaves the smallest ships as blobs of pixels
12:47<andythenorth>and it's ugly
12:48<FLHerne>That's why I wanted to squash them horizontally by removing the uninteresting bits of hold :P
12:48<FLHerne>That would then break the scaling again though :P
12:50<FLHerne>Given the quite noticeable size jump (Tyskebuska - Island Trader) you could have two scales. That would also be confusing...
12:50<andythenorth>yup
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12:51<FLHerne>You could squash the real sprites as well, which would reduce clipping... :P
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13:28<@Alberth>hi hi
13:29<@Terkhen>hi Alberth
13:29<andythenorth>buena serra Alberth
13:30<andythenorth>Terkhen: any FISH 2 bugs found? :)
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: translators * r24459 /trunk/src/lang/ (dutch.txt hungarian.txt korean.txt luxembourgish.txt):
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: dutch - 4 changes by Parody
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: hungarian - 4 changes by IPG
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: korean - 19 changes by telk5093
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: luxembourgish - 19 changes by Phreeze
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13:48<Wolf01>evenink
13:50<@Alberth>hi andy, wolf
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14:08<@Terkhen>andythenorth: nope
14:08<@Terkhen>I only ran some AI tests though
14:08<andythenorth>anyone else got FISH 2 feedback?
14:09*andythenorth has to figure out where to insert the ferries from WSF set
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14:22<V453000>andythenorth: that isnt on bananas or is it?
14:22<andythenorth>V453000: no
14:22<andythenorth>it's on the bundle server
14:22<@Terkhen>what ferries?
14:22<V453000>oh right
14:22<V453000>I will have a look
14:22<FLHerne>andythenorth: I've played with FISH 2 quite a bit, it seems to work :P
14:23<V453000>^ big feedback :D
14:23<andythenorth>Terkhen: going to add the ferries from this set http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=59499
14:23<andythenorth>FLHerne: useful :)
14:24<FLHerne>Refitting to multiple cargos would be convenient though :P
14:24<andythenorth>not a newgrf thing :P
14:26<@Terkhen>they look nice
14:27<andythenorth>the smaller car ferry is about 1947-??
14:27<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Rhododendron
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14:33<andythenorth>hmm
14:34<andythenorth>that one doesn't have an obvious replacement in current FISH :P
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14:44<FLHerne>Do townsets count as 'safe'(ish) to add to a running game?
14:44<andythenorth>they can do very odd things
14:44<andythenorth>I wouldn't
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14:47<frosch123>as long as they do not add cargos, housesets are fine to add
14:47<andythenorth>-0.5 :P
14:48<andythenorth>some house sets will cause your cities to implode
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14:48<andythenorth>and your station acceptance might be screwed
14:48*andythenorth has done it
14:48<frosch123>then that's the fault of the house set :p
14:49<frosch123>not of the adding
14:49<FLHerne>UK Townset doesn't add cargoes, does it?
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15:04<drac_boy>hi
15:04<FLHerne>drac_boy: Hi :-)
15:05<drac_boy>how're you FLHerne?
15:10<FLHerne>Ok thanks :-)
15:11<drac_boy>so what doing tho?
15:15<FLHerne>Trying to redraw andy's CHIPS groundtiles onto slopes :P
15:15*FLHerne is rather useless at pixel art :-(
15:15<drac_boy>heh
15:15<drac_boy>have fun? :)
15:16<FLHerne>:P
15:16*drac_boy is atm trying to find two particular swizterland rail names with no luck yet :-|
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15:19<drac_boy>1. that circular viaduct and 2. at least one (and only I think) station that was laid out in a U shape which sorta looked model-ish if you think about it
15:19<drac_boy>:)
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15:20<Eddi|zuHause>there's a "circular" viaduct in the Bernina railway, i think
15:21<drac_boy>mm that was it thanks a lot for the name
15:21<Eddi|zuHause>http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Bernina_Brusio.jpg&filetimestamp=20081218195305
15:22<drac_boy>http://images.gadmin.st.s3.amazonaws.com/25078/images/buehne/RHB_5421_orig-1-1.jpg
15:22<drac_boy>oh heh
15:22<drac_boy>guess your link's better :)
15:23<drac_boy>well thats one less thing to find online
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15:28<drac_boy>hi cheesy again :p heh
15:29<frosch123>hmm...
15:30<frosch123>do americans really consider baking a cake as "cooking"
15:30<frosch123>"the cake was cooked" is weird :p
15:31<drac_boy>not me but I'm not american tho :)
15:31<frosch123>could you care less? :p
15:33<drac_boy>btw Eddi|zuHause this is another interesting thing about rhb/sbb to me .. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/__SEHRiee7ys/S-58-D4-RhI/AAAAAAAAARY/104SrRzfXKU/s1600/4602421018_9377ffc304.jpg
15:33<drac_boy>thats no tram .. thats an actual mainline train :)
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>well, it's a narrow gauge train...
15:33<FLHerne>Do I have the shading etc right? http://i.imgur.com/wInVY.png
15:34<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause mm thats true, I don't know if the standard gauge sbb even has any or it was always built outside of towns
15:34<drac_boy>I do know that there is at least one amtrak/freight station in either florida or calfornia (forgot now) that had the station accessible from a long road running stretch that has always caused lot of fender benders
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15:44<drac_boy>FLHerne I'll have to try get back into a bit of pixel drawing again one day anyhow ;)
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15:46<frosch123>night
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15:51<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: that's the closest thing to a street running train i have experienced: http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/8417/img0437r.jpg
15:53<FLHerne>Weymouth Harbour line looks interesting on videos - I wish I could go back 20 years to see it :-(
15:53<drac_boy>aha I think I know that railroad ... thats their biggest locomotive excluding the several 0-4-0+0-4-0 mallets they had .. some still carrying their old mechanical cable braking systems
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>a more modern view of that spot: http://www.lasergang-shop.de/Grafik_LP/Eselskrug.jpg
15:53<drac_boy>and btw did you know that one of their steam locomotive was actually only a few years old?
15:54<Pinkbeast>I think arriving at Bonaduz in Switzerland and getting off the train, er, onto a railway line was quite alarming enough.
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15:55<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2612/5729537946_2c40c8dcf8_z.jpg you can see the cablings for the mechanical brake cables
15:56<drac_boy>I still don't really know how these worked tbh, but apparently it did work well after all
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>no, that's a different line.
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>and i think i read they recently stopped using the mechanical brake
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15:57<drac_boy>yeah they got airbrake on everything, the reofit is noticeable but at least it doesn't take away from their shape :)
15:57<Pinkbeast>Coo, they built such odd-looking locomotives on the Continent
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: if you look carefully, you notice it's more narrow gauge (750m would place it in saxony, while 1m is in the Harz mountains)
15:57<drac_boy>Pinkbeast heh heh
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>mm, of course
15:58*Pinkbeast was in the transport museum in Berlin reading about some German Pacific "noted for its clean lines", or "covered in sticky-out bits" as we say. :-)
15:58<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause I forgot which two it was but one of these got a bit 'shortened' due to the berlin wall. at least it still survived obviously
15:59<Pinkbeast>Obviously this is mostly down to our teeny-tiny loading gauge but there you go.
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: neither of those is anywhere close to berlin
16:00<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause I know...point was the whole west/east thing affected a bit of the railroad's network
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: however, the Harz was part of the "inner german border"
16:01<drac_boy>either way someone was kind...I finally know the name of the station.. and heres a good photo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2011-08-02_13-05-17_Switzerland_Alp_Grüm.jpg
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: as thus, the railway to the Brocken (highest mountain) was cut
16:01<Pinkbeast>There was a lovely article in _Steam Railway
16:01<drac_boy>thats for real .. no excuse to not say that a U shaped layout is not realistic :)
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>as in not serviced
16:02<Pinkbeast>_ about a locomotive crew who escaped the DDR by chugging up to one of the remaining railway border crossings and opening the regulator at the last station
16:02<Pinkbeast>... having used up all the air so the guard, who wasn't in on it, couldn't put the brake on
16:03<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't heard about that particular one
16:04<drac_boy>Pinkbeast if that interests you then find some WWII stories...rail-based escapes were quite something. eg steam locomotive with so-so fuel heading to another station to get a new train but...twist is that the tender water was a bit lower on purpose as theres a few people sitting inside there clearly out of view
16:04<Pinkbeast>If you're really interested I've probably still got that issue.
16:05<Pinkbeast>drac: A hidden downside to tank locomotives. :-)
16:05<drac_boy>Pinkbeast not just tank ... a larger tender could quite hold several :p
16:05<drac_boy>but for tanks...maybe 1-2 if really needed
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>Pinkbeast: if it's this one, they made a movie about it: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durchbruch_Lok_234
16:06<Pinkbeast>I mean, from the point of view of the escapees - lot more room inside a big tender
16:07<drac_boy>Pinkbeast mm either way a good way to delay reinforcements is to take any locomotive train or not .. and derail it on purpose on the busy line
16:07<drac_boy>the french resistance did that..and that one famous movie showed at least one scene too
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: yes, french resistance used the "wait in the tender" thing a lot
16:07<Pinkbeast>Eddi: from my minimal german that looks familiar
16:08<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause what you think of that swiss photo anyhow?
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16:11<Eddi|zuHause2>why would i have a particular opinion about a photo?
16:13<V453000>why not? :)
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16:35<drac_boy>btw http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/ch/SBB_CFF_FFS/diesel/Am4_4/SBB18467.jpg does that look too much like a german locomotive to anyone? :)
16:35<Pinkbeast>I can never get over the "SBB CFF, for fuck's sake" on the side of those.
16:35<Pinkbeast>(Yeah, I know really)
16:36<drac_boy>heh....hm why?
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: yes, those are former german engines which were bought by swiss railways
16:37<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause yeah not sure if thats a V200 or just something else similar to it tho
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: it is
16:37<drac_boy>ah... diesel-hydraulic on sbb ... wonder what the mechanics might have thought of it
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think this was a success :)
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>german railways got rid of them for a reason :)
16:38<Pinkbeast>Didn't the Swiss at one point have some mad steam shunters converted to use electrical power to heat the boiler?
16:38<drac_boy>Pinkbeast that was due to lot of hydro power but some coal shortage during war
16:38<drac_boy>they still retained coal firing mind you
16:42<Pinkbeast>It's clever in a mad sort of way, I admire it.
16:43<drac_boy>pinkbeast btw there is something you might like..give me a moment to find a good photo :p
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16:56*Pinkbeast is offline to mangle dinner in five minutes, be warned...
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17:02<drac_boy>Pinkbeast took me a while to find a good photo since there were quite few but anyhow http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6080/6109964956_df7fc3b9dd_b.jpg
17:03<drac_boy>and nope its not you .. it really is ontario aka canada :)
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17:03<drac_boy>too bad the locomotives themself just couldn't last well in the canada winters .. replaced by alike-painted modified F7 units instead for another few years then finally even the coaches were gone as well
17:05<Pinkbeast>That's quite elegant for North American railways, isn't it?
17:05<drac_boy>and heres the F7am unit (I assume the rear is a cab-only "locomotive" probably) in toronto which was its southmost station (so the via train probably is heading for ottawa or montreal)
17:05<drac_boy>http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7035/6427370543_743d4c7282_z.jpg
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17:06<drac_boy>pinkbeast not everything were bad tho, try this ex-sweden ex-'hidden away during cold war in case of electrification collapse' steam locomotive http://www.lowdownonline.com/wp-content/uploads/the-wakefield-steam-train-scott-fiander.jpg
17:07<drac_boy>and thats a sweden diesel behind it for shunting purpose as well :)
17:07<drac_boy>but for at least 2 years now they have not ran due to line issues etc etc
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17:08<drac_boy>pinkbeast it was more or less an isolated line (although one unused link still exist) so thats why they could retain their original couplers etc
17:12<drac_boy>and if you still want to go on about foreign trains try this http://farm1.staticflickr.com/226/480959276_342ab9abea.jpg sweden electric .. it resulted in the AEM-7 :p
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17:14<drac_boy>too bad nothing actually happened from these two for some reason tho http://www.trainweb.org/railpix/x2w1.jpg http://www.polar.sunynassau.edu/~fanellis/amtrak_ice_on_test_run.jpg
17:14<drac_boy>Acela doesn't really 'match' anyway :)
17:15<drac_boy>and pinkbeast...yes..that *is* an ICE-1 for the latter
17:15<drac_boy>:)
17:18<Elukka>america hates passenger rail
17:18<Elukka>they used to have a very comprehensive light rail network too
17:19<Elukka>the burgeoning car industry killed it and implanted the idea that one must always use their own car in the american popular consciousness
17:19<Elukka>mass transit is for poor people
17:19<drac_boy>elukka heh 1971 was a bit of mess but what else could be really done when too many railroads wanted out of this big red expense?
17:19<drac_boy>only a few smaller railroads still wanted to stick to their own passenger trains one way or another
17:20<Elukka>well, suburban rail was already dead and buried by that time...
17:20<drac_boy>elukka tell that to toronto :p
17:20<Elukka>not because it wasn't profitable
17:21<Elukka>but because GM & co literally bought out the light rail and tram companies and shut them down
17:21<Elukka>they were convicted and fined $1000 for permanently sabotaging america's infrastructure
17:22<Elukka>the chief architect of the plot was also fined $1 :D
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17:22<Eddi|zuHause>that's better than the banking crisis, where nobody was convicted of anything
17:23<Elukka>you can thank GM for LA being a smoggy, gridlocked mess, among other things
17:23<Elukka>it's not an accident
17:23<drac_boy>elukka its pretty much coming to a slowdown whether anyone likes it or not.. political movements wouldn't do anything for ever-dwindling oil sources no matter how hard they try :P
17:23<drac_boy>and that bailout for the "big three" has always been questioned hard for a long time yet as well
17:26<drac_boy>elukka what you think of the usual problem of most americans having a rather bad ego? :P
17:26<Elukka>well, that depends on the particular american in question :P
17:27<Elukka>they're not all terrible!
17:27<drac_boy>elukka...how about the one that buys a fullsize suv that runs on gas .. and all they do is downtown driving with no passengers or anything?
17:27<Elukka>well they're stupid
17:28<drac_boy>heh :p
17:28<drac_boy>anyway that reminds me of something else tho...
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>generalisations are always bad!
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>(that is a generalisation, btw.)
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17:30<Supercheese>I've always wanted a car that runs on natural gas. I mean, it's piped to my house and everything, all I'd need is a compressor
17:30<Supercheese>Figure it burns cleaner too
17:30<drac_boy>I know germany and switzerland share borders but do anyone think its ever plausible to have some overnight train from denmark or poland end up at a switzerland border station?
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17:30<drac_boy>in theory that is..doesn't have to be a real example
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>there's an overnight train from Berlin to Basel
17:31<Elukka>i like electric cars on principle
17:32<Elukka>just gotta work on the practicality a tad...
17:32<Elukka>tesla's working on that
17:32<Eddi|zuHause>electric cars are a dead end
17:32<Elukka>they're going down from expensive sports cars to more normal cars as the technology develops
17:32<Elukka>why?
17:32<Eddi|zuHause>there's not enough lithium in the world to put a battery in every car
17:32<+glx>autonomy is way too low
17:32<drac_boy>mm I was thinking more about like eg a dsb electric locomotive ending up within photo-sharing distance of a sbb locomotive
17:33<Eddi|zuHause>and a battery dies after ~5 years
17:33<drac_boy>but if it doesn't sound too plausible thats ok..it was just an afterthought :)
17:33<Eddi|zuHause>so you need an extensive recycling infrastructure
17:33<Elukka>i'm not sure that's an inherent limitation of the technology
17:33<Elukka>better batteries are worked on all the time
17:34<Eddi|zuHause>fuel cells would be interesting
17:34<Elukka>supercheese: i've heard you can get kits to convert pretty much any car to burn natural gas
17:34<Eddi|zuHause>(hydrogen-based combustion)
17:34<Elukka>for... a couple thousand euros?
17:34*Supercheese lives in the United States
17:35<Eddi|zuHause>if you can figure out the distribution of hydrogen through a fuel station system
17:35<Elukka>a couple thousand dollars probably, then :P
17:35<Supercheese>:P
17:35<Elukka>it pays itself back pretty fast if you happen to have a station that sells the stuff where you live
17:35<+glx>Elukka: doesn't work on diesel engine I think
17:35<Eddi|zuHause>you can then create the hydrogen at the energy source, like near the offshore wind parks or in the norwegian mountains
17:35<Elukka>i think BMW built cars that run on straight liquid hydrogen rather than fuel cells too
17:35<Supercheese>Depending on the extractable energy available in natural gas vs. gasoline, it could be quite cheaper
17:36<Supercheese>I haven't run the calculations, though
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>without having to worry about distributing the short-lived electricity across europe
17:36<Elukka>thorium reactors could generate hydrogen as a byproduct for essentially free...
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>but instead the more long term hydrogen-based fuel
17:37<Supercheese>Or even better, distill your own alcohol and run your car on that
17:37<Supercheese>Problem is the government regulates the $#%& out of distillation
17:37<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: that doesn't sound particularly energy-efficient
17:38<Supercheese>the Model A was a dual-fuel car, alcohol and gasoline
17:38<Supercheese>Ford thought it was fine :)
17:38<Elukka>hm. the tesla model s has a range of 426 kilometers and a battery guarantee of 8 years
17:38<Elukka>not quite there yet, but they're getting better
17:38<+glx>and how long for a charge ?
17:38<Supercheese>then Prohibition hit in the States, and alcohol as a fuel died rather fast
17:38<Elukka>too long
17:39<Elukka>i vaguely recall something about some technology that would allow charging in a few minutes but i suspect that would require different battery technology
17:39<Elukka>and the power grid couldn't take it, but a gas station could probably build something to deal with it
17:39<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: that's one of the main problems with electric cars
17:40<Elukka>it's a solvable problem
17:40<Eddi|zuHause>electricity is bad for one-time burst energy transfers
17:40<Eddi|zuHause>you're better off refitting every (major) road with induction circuits
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>and have the battery only for short distance travels
17:41<Elukka>that sounds way more expensive and maintenance-intensive
17:42<Elukka>the model s apparently has a charging mode where it fills up in a bit less than an hour
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17:44<drac_boy>http://19891130.de/1969.05.14 Muggendorf/03 280 007 2021 Mugg 14.5.69.jpg huh this is a first ... railbus leading train
17:44<+glx>spaces in links is not a good idea
17:45<drac_boy>mm what you mean? I don't see any space her
17:45<TrueBrain>I almost kicked him for being a spambot :P It was that I somehow linked the name as being here earlier in time :P
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17:45<drac_boy>truebrain...there was a mugg here?
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17:46<TrueBrain>random numeric domain with an invalid URL (spaces are not valid in an URL, should be %20) .. so close :D
17:47<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: the railbusses (VT98, not the earlier VT95) were designed so they could pull regular wagons
17:47<drac_boy>truebrain hm must be your client as its already %20 here
17:47<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause well theres a locomotive in the middle if you can notice its cab hump
17:47<TrueBrain>drac_boy: mine, and glx', and everyone else in this channel, sure :)
17:47<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: no, it must be your client that is converting the %20 upon send
17:48<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause its only konversation straight from cd .. so theres no plugin or anything
17:48<+glx>http://19891130.de/1969.05.14%20Muggendorf/03%20280%20007%202021%20Mugg%2014.5.69.jpg
17:49<drac_boy>either way what was with vt98 vs vt95 anyway?
17:49<Elukka>that is a pretty weird train
17:49<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: Konversation usually disables the %-expansion in urls
17:49<+glx>that's how it should be
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17:50<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: VT95 is the first version of the (post-war) DB railcar, VT98 is a few years later with stronger motor and the possibility to couple with normal wagons
17:50<drac_boy>ah, so the vt95 only had a small drawbar rather than full couplers?
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>yes, something like that. the VT95 could only be coupled with a railcar-wagon (no steering wagon, so it had to run around at the end)
17:52<drac_boy>I still think the non-red colour used on them looks a bit weird to me but what can I say tho :)
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>what non-red?
17:53<drac_boy>hmm maybe it wasn't the vt98 ... might be thinking of a different railbus somewhere else that did not look so nice in newer colours
17:54<drac_boy>and btw funny enough a quick look turned up this http://www.woernitz-franken.de/vt98un1.jpg apparently theres always a big chance something has derailed at least once in their life :p
17:54<Eddi|zuHause>there are some private railways that have different colours
17:54<drac_boy>for that kind of plowing it must had been going at full throttle
17:54<Eddi|zuHause>and some railcars were painted mint-green in later years
17:55<Eddi|zuHause>not sure if the oceanblue/beige livery was applied to railcars
17:55<drac_boy>mm tbh I sometimes think certain diesel shunters looked better in red than that navy blue .. especially V100 for one
17:55<Elukka>interestingly there are still V200 running under differnet companies
17:55<drac_boy>but thats just my own view
17:55<Elukka>some of them have godawful color schemes
17:55<Elukka>like a mess of colors with a huge URL on the side
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17:56<drac_boy>oh about passengers I do have something I've wondered about
17:56<Elukka>http://www.richardkrol.nl/fotos/v200/rollout/221136neustrelitzb.jpg
17:56<Elukka>this one is excellent though
17:56<Elukka>just as good as the original red
17:57<drac_boy>exactly what was with the name 'thunderbox' for these numerous 2-axle coaches?
17:57<Elukka>noisy steel bodies
17:57<drac_boy>oh, really? hm had not thought you could get that noisy
17:57<drac_boy>interesting
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17:59<Eddi|zuHause>"Der Name beruht auf dem starken Dröhnen dieser Fahrzeuge aufgrund der nicht vorhandenen Dämmung"
17:59<Eddi|zuHause>http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donnerbüchse_(Personenwagen)
18:00<drac_boy>elukka well noise or not .. I sorta liked some of the older train makeups ... eg ET87 with 6+ thunderboxes on the mountain route .. or a V36 with one baggage and 2 or more thunderboxes on branchline
18:00<Elukka>old german trains are the best trains
18:00<drac_boy>I always thought the V36 was a bit unusual for passenger power but I guess whatever worked for them
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: you sure that wasn't an ET89?
18:01<Elukka>http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Railway/IMG_2725-1.jpg
18:01<Elukka>http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Railway/IMG_3475-1.jpg
18:01<Elukka>related :P
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: V36 are military (WWII) engines that were repurposed after the war
18:01<drac_boy>oh ... sorry yeah Eddi|zuHause ET89 ... I never can remember the right numberings sometimes
18:02<drac_boy>ET87 must be that odd cabcar+loco+cabcar set then was it?
18:02<Eddi|zuHause>yes
18:02<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause I always found the ET87 sorta weird yet interesting
18:03<drac_boy>2+1, 2+1, 1+2 axles arrangement
18:03<drac_boy>of course I do wonder if they ever used extra coaches with the ET87 or not
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>well, 2'1+B'1+1'2
18:04<drac_boy>elukka...mm ... C tracks .. a bit too modern for me .. but heh .. how large's your collection/layout seriously? :)
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: i've seen a photo where it had an additional steering car, but i find it unlikely that it regularly had other coaches attached
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18:05<Elukka>not very
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: it was already fairly underpowered for the mountain-track it was used on
18:05<Elukka>i need to find some motivation to work on it
18:05<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause mm sounds like it usually ran on its own then .. just like with the uk autorails .. it was always only autocoach+loco or autocoach+loco+autocoach .. very rare to have a intermidate coach in
18:05<Elukka>i've been working on weathering the track a bit
18:06<Elukka>not happy with the ballast yet though
18:06<Elukka>http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Railway/track1.jpg
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: during (touristical) peak-times, you could combine up to 3 3-part sets, though
18:06<Elukka>but hey it's better than plain c track
18:06<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause mm makes sense, MU is MU after all
18:07<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause btw the ET89 interestingly enough only had 2 powered axles, not four .. yet it didn't have a problem with hauling several many coaches at times if needed
18:08<drac_boy>of course it ran alone many other times as the later-reofitted red laterns at both ends showed
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18:11<drac_boy>elukka .. so what sort of layout is it... an oval with station or well you know :)
18:13<Eddi|zuHause>a dig in the log says http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Railway/trackplan.png
18:13<Elukka>sneaky :P
18:13<Elukka>i don't have an awful lot of space
18:13<Elukka>and honestly most of it isn't done :/
18:13<Elukka>i have the central mountain's basic shape down
18:13<Elukka>and the tunnels are... functional
18:13<Elukka>the spiral down probably won't exist :D
18:14<drac_boy>actually thats rather interesting abit I'll sorta question two locomotive sheds?
18:15<Elukka>i couldn't fit a roundhouse anywhere so i put a couple smaller sheds
18:15<Elukka>well i could fit a roundhouse in the big bulging part but it'd fill up the table too bad
18:15<Elukka>gotta strike a balance between amount of track and scenery
18:16<drac_boy>elukka... well can I suggest an optional alternative?
18:16<Elukka>sure
18:16<Elukka>apparently i've changed the town names and some other small stuff since that pic
18:16<Elukka>but it's mostly the same
18:17<drac_boy>take the green-located locomotive sheds out .. move the mainline switch a bit further to right .. then plop a mostly-homemade four tracks transfer table? (2 sheds facing west .. one east .. and the one eastward access track)
18:17<drac_boy>don't know if it'll clash with the steam locomotives tho :)
18:17<Elukka>i think it'd be a bit out of period plus i'd have trouble fitting it in
18:18<drac_boy>heh allright np
18:18<Elukka>i'm going for a 60's setting
18:18<drac_boy>some transfer tables did actually see steam locomotives but thats country-specific after all
18:18<Elukka>(like everyone else)
18:19<drac_boy>and on the opposite side: in usa, finding geeps sharing the same roundhouse turntable as steam locomotives wasn't too rare :p
18:19<drac_boy>even GP40's as well
18:19<Elukka>early 20th century would be interesting too
18:19<Elukka>but i like some of the diesels too much
18:20<Elukka>modern i don't like that much
18:20<drac_boy>elukka there is one thing I had been thinking about scratchbuilding for fun tho...
18:20<Elukka>plus in the 60's i can still get away with shorter wagons
18:20<Elukka>modern 4 axle coaches and such are just too long for my layout's curves
18:20<Elukka>they'd work but they look bad
18:21<drac_boy>what I want to try build ... is one of the two classes of battery trainsets that operated light but long branchline routes
18:21<Elukka>you know i actually changed the main curve in the lower right of the main part of the layout to have gentler curves
18:21<drac_boy>quite simple..they had a boxy shape .. the only curves would be a bit in the roof itself but thats easy to work with
18:21<drac_boy>I never EVER can remember the class # for these tho :|
18:22<Elukka>http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Railway/trackplan-1.png
18:22<Elukka>moved the switches off the curve, moved the locomotive depot, added some extra sidings
18:23<drac_boy>and elukka...btw ... a battery train in the midst of steam/diesel would be rather amusing to say the least .. I mean could you imagine if you had a sound system for your layout? :P
18:23<Elukka>the change in the curve doesn't look so significant from a topdown view but those switches were 360 mm radius
18:23<Elukka>the current curve looks much better
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18:23<Elukka>the outer line is 515 mm at the tightest
18:23<drac_boy>the steam would chuff off .. diesel making their usual grumbling .. but that one odd trainset just zoom off too quietly without much of a sound? :P
18:23<Elukka>still tighter than i'd like but i just don't have the space
18:24<Wolf01>'night all
18:24<Elukka>my locomotives do have sound :P
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18:24<drac_boy>elukka well a battery powered train only has the flange and motor humm noise .. and these are barely audible in real life? :P
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18:27<drac_boy>elukka so .. you like to weather your trains?
18:27<Elukka>yeah
18:28<drac_boy>just curious from the dirt I noticed in that closeup photo
18:28<drac_boy>any more train photos you can share? :)
18:28<Elukka>http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Railway/IMG_34261.jpg
18:28<Elukka>closeup on the cab, that was before i weathered the rest
18:29<Elukka>watercolor makes nice rust/worn paint patterns
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18:33<drac_boy>or no? :p
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18:36<@Terkhen>good night
18:37<drac_boy>bye Terkhen
18:40<drac_boy>elukka either way I've got a bit of mix of marklins here too.. still working on ordering some more this month ... aside to clearing out the last major box of older usa trains I just hadn't liked anymore :)
18:41<drac_boy>still thinking about one bemo order too.... or not...hard to say yet :)
18:41<Elukka>i decided i'm gonna stop buying stuff until i get off my ass and actually work on the layout :P
18:42<drac_boy>elukka heh well tbh I can't really do much when I have one steam locomotive, a small freight shunter, one old 2-car doubledeck wagonset, one restaurant car, and a few random freight wagons
18:42<drac_boy>not really anything to make up a 'decent' train with at all :)
18:44<drac_boy>elukka.. the one bemo train would be interesting tho....
18:46<drac_boy>http://www.bemo-modellbahn.de/fileadmin/bemo/img/illus/produkte/7255100.jpg
18:46<drac_boy>might be the only electric locomotive I'll have ... but still has siderods :)
18:47<drac_boy>of course I might have to add a few more coaches tho .. one just seem silly
18:48<Eddi|zuHause>that looks swiss
18:49<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause its rhb, what else :)
18:49<Eddi|zuHause>so narrow gauge, how do you fit that in anywhere?
18:50<drac_boy>I was already planning a semi-mountain layout ... so the marklin trains get most of the land and a bit of slope .. then theres a short (whether oval or point-to-point I still have to decide on yet) metre gauge section on the mountain
18:51<drac_boy>going to have everything a bit covered in snow .. would save me having to do grass/rocks because its just all varying height of snow everywhere instead :P
18:51<Eddi|zuHause>if i were to fit in narrow gauge in a layout, it would probably be a tram
18:51<drac_boy>would still have to find out how to do some molds for the mountain rock faces tho but at least thats a much smaller thing to do
18:51<drac_boy>mm I've thought a bit about towns but not too inclined
18:51<drac_boy>it'll mostly be countrysides
18:53<drac_boy>btw its more or less freelanced so I'm not too worried about if theres no real example of drg-served standard gauge platform sharing with metre gauge platform
18:53<drac_boy>just as long as its not something too crazy such as a BR.05 showing up next to a lone BDe
18:54*drac_boy wouldn't want to afford such a large express steam loco anyway
18:55<drac_boy>they go for over $300 used ... don't know what new would cost :P
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18:56<drac_boy>a smaller express 2-6-0 with short bogie coaches meeting a rhb crocodile with 3-5 of its own coaches seem ok to me if its just for fun :)
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19:06<Eddi|zuHause>btw, if there ever were a {Copenhagen,Warszaw}-Berlin-{Bern,Zürich} train, it would likely have a DB engine pulling it
19:07<drac_boy>mm
19:08<drac_boy>btw I had actually thought a bit about berlin-zurich trains but I'm not sure if I want to find some sleepers or not .... for now I'll just more or less consider 'local' trains
19:08<Eddi|zuHause>like i said, the overnight trains are Berlin-Bern
19:09<Eddi|zuHause>er, i meant Basel
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19:21<drac_boy>mm
19:21<drac_boy>either way the reason I was ending up with marklin is because I just like the simplification that comes from the 3-rail ac system
19:21<drac_boy>not to mention no polarity issues
19:21<drac_boy>of course other buyers have their own ideas too
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19:44<drac_boy>either way there are actually some with marklin layouts running american trains on them
19:44<drac_boy>after all marklin has always been selling ac F units ... and at least once in a while other locomotives too
19:45<Elukka>i personally wouldn't go with märklin if i were to do an american layout
19:45<Elukka>i am going with märklin currently because it's what i have and why not
19:45<drac_boy>yeah I agree, it seem a little strange tbh .. not to mention limited choices of compactible freights too
19:45<Elukka>but for american stuff the choice is so limited
19:46<Elukka>for european stuff märklin has its perks and its downsides but for american trains two rail seems like the obvious choice
19:46<drac_boy>at least with O scale its a different story :)
19:48<Eddi|zuHause>with all the DC stuff i have, Märklin is somewhat out of the question
19:50<Elukka>wagons are pretty easy to convert between systems
19:50<Elukka>i have a bunch of brawa wagons
19:51<Elukka>holy hell i'm happy the tanker runs fine with the DC wheels, i'm never going to even try to change those
19:51<Elukka>the frame actually bent a bit when i changed the coupler
19:51<Elukka>brawa looks better than märklin but it's really fragile
19:51<Eddi|zuHause>i don't see how "DC wheels" would be a problem at all
19:52<Elukka>the flange measurements are different
19:52<Eddi|zuHause>as long as you don't want lighting or stuff
19:52<Elukka>sometimes it causes derailments on switches particularly with longer wagons
19:53<Eddi|zuHause>but that's more a problem with track geometry
19:53<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause btw there was one contentional model magazine on someone who had a ho scale shelf terminal-to-yard-and-back layout based on russia railroad and he mentioned that most of the locomotives were scratchbuilt as almost noone sold them in boxed form
19:53<Eddi|zuHause>2.5mm or 2.1mm profile
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19:53<drac_boy>seeing that I have rarely ever found any russia model trains even in this year I guess he still had a point
19:54<drac_boy>elukka btw about brawa...funny thing is I have been thinking about ordering some wagonsets and maybe even one locomotive from them :)
19:54<drac_boy>cost isn't much more than the non-brawa alternatives after all
19:54<Elukka>they are the best looking wagons i have
19:54<Elukka>i'd love their locomotives but they're just too expensive for me
19:55<drac_boy>elukka for storage I was thinking of foam-padded "tubes" so I'm not worried about details (I may be adding some of my own too after all) :)
19:55<Elukka>http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Railway/IMG_3471.jpg
19:55<Elukka>these ones are brawa
19:55<Elukka>i have a bunch of others too
19:55<drac_boy>elukka...heh .. one of the locomotive I'm looking at is about like $160 ... which isn't far off from the cost for most well made non-brass europe locomotives :)
19:55<Elukka>i was going to order a car or two to see how well they played together with märklin stuff
19:55<Elukka>i ended up with six...
19:55<drac_boy>mm nice wagonset there .. matched with the brakecab too :)
19:56<Elukka>still need to do some loads for them
19:56<Elukka>i did some for the märklin coal cars i have
19:56<Elukka>http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Railway/IMG_3389.jpg?t=1318247735
19:57<Elukka>piece of cardboard, crumpled paper underneath to hold it up against the top edges, sand, glue, paint
20:01<drac_boy>nice, I never liked always-empty wagons at times
20:01<drac_boy>I was actually going to modify woodscenic/noch people for some cab crews ... still not sure about the passenger wagons yet but its plausible too
20:02<drac_boy>and btw I think a few marklin hoppers were actually operational with the right grit of a load (not sure if 'grit' is right word tho?)
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20:08<drac_boy>elukka I think I'll pretty much stick to covered wagons and the so tho
20:09<drac_boy>after all I don't quite think there was much open loads beside timbers that could had plied the germany/swizterland market borders
20:09<Elukka>heh
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20:13<drac_boy>elukka this is similar to what I have for one of two steam locomotives atm http://www.tototrains.com/55245.jpg
20:13<drac_boy>I'll have to check box for actual #
20:14<Elukka>heh
20:14<Elukka>br24
20:15<drac_boy>its not a small tank loco but its not big tender neither .. kinda works nicely for a small layout after all no? :)
20:17<Elukka>indeed
20:18<drac_boy>btw elukka you want know what I kinda find odd in term of huge drive tires tho?
20:18<Elukka>well?
20:19<drac_boy>http://www.gaugemaster.com/_upload/imgs/lrg/43395506/HR2377.jpg and its much more apparent when powering a train as this artwork shows as well http://www.atelier-hanerau-kb.de/mediac/400_0/media/$D6BB~1073.JPG~HP~2.JPG
20:20<drac_boy>doesn't exactly look like it was made for highspeed so ... wonder whats with these very big tires
20:20<Elukka>dunno
20:20<Elukka>diesel and electric locomotives usually don't have very large wheels, fast or not
20:21<drac_boy>yeah
20:22<drac_boy>and the body shape is ... well .. to me rather odd :)
20:22<drac_boy>the long hood suddenly ends into a small low nose cabinet
20:26<drac_boy>elukka I've kinda liked russia diesels a bit...they're almost too much like the old north america alcos ... smokes a lot :P
20:26<Elukka>:P
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20:28<drac_boy>and elukka...to watch one exit a tunnel with a heavy freight that even have more as banker ... well lets say the tunnel portal is going to smoke for another few more minutes after the train has already left
20:28<drac_boy>crazy old engines :)
20:28<Elukka>i've seen a video of a russian diesel belching out flames and tons of smoke
20:28<Elukka>not sure why it did that!
20:29<drac_boy>elukka...probably too much oil getting through but who's caring? its still running so just ignore the smoke :)
20:30<Elukka>http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3e4_1327483866
20:30<drac_boy>elukka it reminds me of a uk photo I saw somewhere once .. someone had a bit silly humor in the timing of the photo being taken....
20:31<drac_boy>"a diesel locomotive that tries to think its a steam locomotive" ... guess what the real reason was? excessive long blowoff of the steam heating boiler coupled with little visible diesel exhaust
20:31<Elukka>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/N1_rollout.jpg
20:31<Elukka>here's an interesting thing...
20:31<Elukka>it went on two tracks
20:31<Elukka>with locomotives pulling or pushing on each one
20:32<Elukka>http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/n1-on-carrier.jpg
20:32<Elukka>bottom of the rocket, with 30 engines...
20:33<Elukka>that was the soviet moon rocket
20:33<Elukka>never worked, unfortunately
20:34<Elukka>i do believe that's the biggest railway wagon that ever existed :P
20:35<Elukka>the Saturn V had equally fatal flaws as the soviet rocket, the difference was they had the time and money to work them out
20:35<Elukka>when they were working on the Saturn V they didn't know if you could have such huge engines without the rocket shaking itself apart
20:42<drac_boy>heh
20:43<drac_boy>btw elukka I still have to think about it but I mean I know some big trains did get helpers at times but I still wonder if it could work on smaller ones too
20:43<drac_boy>after all the layout is set by the mountain so...there'll be grades for sure
20:43<drac_boy>might be interesting if I was to use the br24 and other locomotive together
20:44<Pinkbeast>In UK practice all kinds of trains got bankers sometimes
20:44<drac_boy>Pinkbeast I was thinking of germany but thank you miss.youhavethelickeyincline :P
20:44<drac_boy>heh heh
20:45<Pinkbeast>It's a pity Big Bertha did not survive into preservation. :-)
20:46<Pinkbeast>Likewise the U1 but basically I think that about anything of Gresley's that's been lost.
20:46<drac_boy>Pinkbeast nor were the operational issues with the only LNER mallets ever resolved neither .. the crazy thing is someone said that there was actually at least one instance of where two mallets had problems and had to be helped by the Bretha resulting in a train with 20+ drive axles count!
20:47<drac_boy>eight plus eight plus ten (or was it eight on the Bretha? I forgot now) .. do the math
20:47<Pinkbeast>Bertha was an 0-10-0
20:48<Pinkbeast>... the LNER built divided-drive locomotives but I wasn't aware they built any Mallets, do you know the class?
20:48<drac_boy>divided-drive?
20:49<Pinkbeast>Different cylinders power different axles
20:49<drac_boy>btw I take back a bit .. wikipedia mentioned it too .. "On one occasion it was banking a train hauled by LMS Garratt No. 47972 which stalled on the bank and was rescued by "Big Bertha", resulting in the formation of a train with nineteen driving axles.
20:49<drac_boy>19 axles .. who'll had ever heard of a uk train with that? :)
20:50<Elukka>think i'm gonna go get some sleep
20:50<Elukka>night
20:50<Pinkbeast>Ah, yeah, the LMS Garratts. But they were, not to be indelicate, a bit crap. :-(
20:50<drac_boy>bye elukka..tell me more tomorrow ok? :)
20:50<Elukka>sure
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20:50<Pinkbeast>19 axles> er well modern EMUs :-)
20:50<drac_boy>pinkbeast .. at least peacock-beyer was much more well known and more reliable in africa on the other hand :)
20:50<drac_boy>especially K1 and K4 as well
20:51<Pinkbeast>Four WD 2-10-0s or 9Fs would get you to 20 axles. :-)
20:51<drac_boy>pinkbeast and of course theres that 2-8-4+4-8-2 that even did the royal trains from time to time too
20:51<drac_boy>white-painted coaches too I recall
20:52<drac_boy>pinkbeast...funny thing is I did read a bit about these 9F classed 2-10-0's .. they were interesting locomotive
20:52<Pinkbeast>The 9Fs are lovely; it's a pity they can't run on national rail.
20:52<drac_boy>not to mention that on at least one railroad they were given free rein at doing express passenger trains :)
20:53<drac_boy>thats more than 80km/h for these axles :p
20:53<Pinkbeast>"One railroad" - er, they were built by BR, we only had one railway. :-)
20:53<drac_boy>pinkbeast..I meant pre-br silly
20:53<drac_boy>especially Southern
20:53<Pinkbeast>The 9Fs didn't exist pre-BR.
20:54<Pinkbeast>I feel we may be talking at cross purposes.
20:54<drac_boy>mm well apparently when they tried to do express trains on one particular line they were quickly stripped of that duty .. but at a later date somewhere else they got pressed into doing it for a while
20:54<Pinkbeast>The 9Fs are widely reputed to have done 80-90mph on pax trains before the practice was "officially discouraged".
20:54<drac_boy>mm yeah thats probably it
20:55<Pinkbeast>... as the story has it, BR managers would get out, walk to the front expecting to find a shiny A4 or Merchant Navy, not a filthy-looking 9F.
20:55<drac_boy>btw that same magazine .. I don't think I got it anymore but anyway ... there was a short mention of Dreadnough coaches .. and how the public did not like them so much. they had a smooth curved roof (as much as modern stocks are now) rather than the raised vent line
20:55<drac_boy>was dated like 1950-1970s for that photo I think
20:56<drac_boy>still wonder what was up with that name and if it was offical or not
20:56<Pinkbeast>But you'd find 9Fs all over the network - they were surprisingly good at mixed traffic, given their intended heavy freight use.
20:56<drac_boy>pinkbeast...a case of "designed for one duty, found to be just as home on another duty" thinge?
20:57<Pinkbeast>Well, a bit. I mean, the discouragement of fast running wasn't just killjoys; the valve gear was never designed for that sort of speed, and was taking a beating.
20:57<drac_boy>because mind you the UP FEF (thats basically four-eight-four aka 4-8-4, eh?) were designed for express power but in the late dieselization years up kinda found them to be really good freight workhorses by surprise
20:58<Pinkbeast>But a lot of the BR designs were quite flexible; the Brittannias were OK on freight and basically killed the BR light Pacific design by being too useful.
20:59<Pinkbeast>Apparently some Americans want to rebuild an old express locomotive and have a crack at the 125mph steam record, which should be interesting.
20:59<drac_boy>and at least one case of a Frisco freight locomotive having to be used in a pinch for a failing locomotive and it made a surprising work of the delayed schedules right out of the station that soon a few of their class were rebooked for passenger trains instead
21:00<drac_boy>someone probably was thinking something along "jeeze that locomotive sure moved the train fast it didn't even have any delays left....lets clean up some of the spare ones for passenger duty"
21:01<drac_boy>pinkbeast btw what do you even think of any Ivatt steam locomotives?
21:01<Pinkbeast>If you're planning to thrash the fleet until it's gone, you have a lot more freedom - it's why a lot of the Merchant Navies turned in crazy speeds before dieselification.
21:01<Pinkbeast>He's those old GNR 4-4-0s, isn't he? Not many left.
21:02<Pinkbeast>Oh, wait, 4-4-2s mainly
21:03<drac_boy>I kinda was thinking more like Ivatt 2-6-0 ... it sorta has that "mainline locomotive but not with a fat-diameter boiler blotching out the cab" look to me
21:03<Pinkbeast>But boilers were just smaller then...
21:03<drac_boy>but its no weak locomotive neither which is pretty much the point
21:03<drac_boy>I think someone refered to it as Mickey Mouse at least once tho
21:03<drac_boy>why I never know
21:04<Pinkbeast>I think more generally if I wanted to be a famous locomotive designer I would try and avoid my successor being Gresley. :-/
21:05<Pinkbeast>(Or Stanier, or Chapelon.)
21:06<Pinkbeast>Or Churchward, or... oh, dear, this is getting out of hand.
21:06<drac_boy>heh well tbh I kinda am not really into big locomotives
21:06<drac_boy>not to mention the cost it'll take, to our own tho :p
21:08<Pinkbeast>Your own?
21:08<drac_boy>pinkbeast and btw its not only steamers .. there were some usa railroads that had decent money but choose to stick to smaller units which could make up for rather interesting non-class1 trains :)
21:09<Pinkbeast>Ah, I'm one of those "world ended in 1968" types. :-)
21:09<drac_boy>eg who else could want to run a single freight train that had F7A-F7B-F7B-GP15-RS2 on the head?
21:09<drac_boy>anyone else would had just gotten two modern GP40 instead
21:10<drac_boy>even Rio Grande was known for some trains with FA-FB-GP-FB-FA "insert in middle" locomotive consist too
21:11<drac_boy>pinkbeast btw let me tell you something in case you didn't know...
21:11<Pinkbeast>I've never understood their reluctance to use banking engines.
21:12<drac_boy>if you really want to prove having both 'steam locomotive' and 'containers' in the same sentence ... just look to JNR .. a lot of containers-on-flatcars steam hauled freights happened for many years :)
21:12<drac_boy>everywhere else..steam was about gone by time containers came around, go figure with japan
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21:16<drac_boy>pinkbeast and which of that reminds me of one little thing to show you..
21:16<Pinkbeast>Being in Switzerland and seeing mixed non-containerised goods come through in the evening was odd, too.
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21:21<drac_boy>hm bit harder than I thought, give me a moment :)
21:24<drac_boy>best one I could find for now but http://www.japanvisitor.com/images/content_images/abashiri-2.jpg that was applied to a few locomotives working toward north japan what with the expected winters they always get
21:25<drac_boy>they pretty much thought two lights was better than a single (centered) one ... sometimes given the nickname "two eyes" due to its own effect naturally
21:25<Pinkbeast>I was half expecting a humungous snowplough.
21:26<drac_boy>heh well pinkbeast...they had plow cabooses (a bit alike to north america's mind you) for steamers ... and modern snowblowers in both pushed and self-powered shapes for diesels/electrics
21:27<drac_boy>the self-powered ones are interesting.. they have blowers on both ends ... and you usually find them around station areas which makes sense .. being able to scoot back n forth :)
21:29<Pinkbeast>I'd better be calling it a night, I fear.
21:29<drac_boy>btw pinkbeast this is a bit different one but it shows you the thoughts they put into the lowspeed-moving blower loco design http://mitsu5ya.btblog.jp/ig/b/kulSc15C447CFCB76.jpg
21:29<drac_boy>its blower on front but totally-adjustable plower on rear (which is raised now yeah)
21:29<drac_boy>the side flaps on the blowers are so it can clear narrow platform track and wide non-platform tracks without delay... clever
21:29<drac_boy>mm have a good sleep ok? :)
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