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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-08-08

---Logopened Wed Aug 08 00:00:05 2012
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01:06<Rubidium>neofutur: the game state in OpenTTD is too big to be send every tick, or to be updated every few ticks. Imagine downloading a savegame every tick. So OpenTTD makes the server and all clients perform the same tasks by only sending the user initiated commands. If a patch changes anything that modifies the logical program flow of the game state, then both sides need to be the same
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02:29<@planetmaker>neofutur: if you want citybuilder with default client, then I suggest to implement that via game script
02:29<@planetmaker>It's feasible and there are even some game scripts to a similar end around which could possibly be something to get started from
02:32<@planetmaker>neofutur: there's already 3 dealing with town growth to some extent
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03:21<NGC3982>neofutur: city builder game?
03:21*NGC3982 googles.
03:21<NGC3982>C*, G*.
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06:31<FLHerne>drac_boy: Hi :-)
06:32<drac_boy>how're you FLHerne? any new tiles yet? :p
06:32<drac_boy>heh heh
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06:50<drac_boy>hi perk11
06:50<perk11>drac_boy: hi
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06:52<drac_boy>how're you?
06:57<Timberdragon>Hi guys, I'm keen to work on a 32bit base set for OTTD however ive spent the last week reading the forums and wiki and i seem to be chasing my tail through a mixture of outdated and inccorect information... is there a single absolute source for information regarding building base sets and graphic formats for the current 1.2.* version of the game?
06:58<@planetmaker>Timberdragon: the single important information is: 32bpp is not treated different from 8bpp
06:58<@planetmaker>you need 8bpp and you can supply in the same package also 32bpp for the sprites
06:59<@planetmaker>by the same means virtually
06:59<Timberdragon>yes, i intend to just down sample from the full 32bit versions, but i find all the info confusing
07:00<Timberdragon>im not a fly by nighter i contributed to the opensource project BOSwars massively and im really keen to make a nice set for OTTD
07:01<@planetmaker>if you want to create anything 32bpp: just make a normal (8bpp) newgrf. And supply the 32bpp sprites within that newgrf as alternatives to the 8bpp sprites
07:01<@planetmaker>I'd like to refer you to ogfx+trains as newgrf example
07:01<Timberdragon>Is the primary tool still the grfcodec?
07:01<@planetmaker>you can use that.
07:02<@planetmaker>My recommendation is to write in NML, though instead of NFO
07:02<Timberdragon>do you know of any GUI's for either of those by anychance?
07:02<@planetmaker>ogfx-trains and zbase are both written in NML
07:02<@planetmaker>newgrfs are programmed. It's not just imaged attached to existing objects
07:04<V453000>NML is very easy programming :) even I managed to learn that :p
07:04<V453000>somewhat anyway
07:05<drac_boy>I'm sticking to nfo for a reason but then thats to our own ways tho :)
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07:06<Timberdragon>:) im not a programmer either but i learned to hackishly use LUA for the other project, can i start with the standard base set and edit the grphics/details without building the files from scratch?
07:06<@planetmaker>you can start with the standard base set and just add 32bpp sprites to it. Yes
07:07<Ammler>doesn't zbase exactly this?
07:07<@planetmaker>Which basically is what zbase, too:
07:11<Timberdragon>Is zbase the project to combine all the exisiting 32bit works into 1 file?
07:18<FLHerne>Timberdragon: Not really, it's a project to make a complete 32bpp baseset, ignoring all existing graphics :P
07:20<FLHerne>Apparently licensing issues keep getting in the way when trying to sort out the existing ones...
07:20<Timberdragon>yes i understand
07:22<Timberdragon>i recall now, zbase is controlled pretty much by a single person. i recall reading the forum post, it was the reason i thought of doing a seperate base set
07:22<Timberdragon>i wasnt blown away by what i seen there
07:23<Timberdragon>unlike some of the original 32bit graphics
07:23<FLHerne>At least it'll get done :P
07:23<Timberdragon>perhaps :)
07:24<FLHerne>Zephyris did a lot of the current 8bpp graphics, IIRC
07:24<Timberdragon>for the default opengfx set?
07:25<Timberdragon>if so that kind of makes sence as the 32bit still look a bit 8bittish to me that is all
07:25<FLHerne>Indeed. I think he's trying to do it in the same style
07:26<V453000>that is just because he doesnt use many colours in there. Uses 32bpp colours which arent in 8bpp but the variety is not there
07:26<@planetmaker>Timberdragon: Zephyris provided 70% of the 8bpp graphics. He'll get done the 32bpp, too
07:26<V453000>I believe he will change some things in the future :)
07:26<@planetmaker>goal for now is: get it done, working. Beautification is for then
07:26<V453000>^ :)
07:27<Timberdragon>im not having a go at the guy, i think the 8bit set is fantastic and true to the original game. I also understand what he says about "getting it done" and sorting out the details later
07:28<@planetmaker>the problem with the existing 32bpp graphics is: *someone* has to sort through. All I always got was "it's basically done", but... nothing I could work with other than I'd have to look at everything myself, too
07:28<@planetmaker>as such nothing was really done there
07:28<@planetmaker>and each and everything needs checking for the licenses and available models, too
07:29<@planetmaker>anyway, that's all beside the point :-)
07:29<FLHerne>Presumably any other 32bpp baseset could use exactly the same NML as zbase, given they'd have the same sprites etc?
07:29<@planetmaker>yes, of course. You'll have to adjust all your offsets though, of course, too
07:30<Timberdragon>i understand totally. I'm very good at getting things done however my filing systems suck hard and im not very good at saving sources, hence the reason i would just prefer to work on a stand alone set X)
07:30<@planetmaker>except if you do it like Zephyris who alignes the sprites mostly such that offsets are all 0
07:31<@planetmaker>well, please do, Timberdragon :-)
07:31<@planetmaker>if you like, I'd also be happy to provide you the same technical facilities as to Zephyris' base set
07:31<V453000>you can always provide those sprites/models to anything else in the end
07:32<Timberdragon>plantmaker: you may live to regret the technical assistance offer X)
07:32<Timberdragon>..and my spelling sucks X)
07:33<Timberdragon>please if you guys have a minute check out boswars dot org for some of my other work
07:33<@planetmaker>Timberdragon: technical assistence doesn't include the programming ;-) I'm busy enough, I'm afraid, with 1.5 base sets at my hand
07:34<Timberdragon>yeah i understand
07:34<@planetmaker>but it includes the setup of a repository so that the DevZone could - if you use it - build your your base sets on a somewhat daily basis, too
07:35<Timberdragon>ill see if i can get going before i trouble you for that service
07:35<@planetmaker>easiest approach probably is to
07:35<@planetmaker>- clone opengfx
07:35<@planetmaker>- start adding your new sprites to it
07:36<Timberdragon>that is what i am thinking
07:36<@planetmaker>the alternative is to make NewGRFs
07:36<@planetmaker>which intially might give "better" (in the sense of complete and easier usable) results
07:37<@planetmaker>like a newgrf only replacing landscape (tiles, foundations, water...). another all infrastructure (road, rail, bridges, stations), a third rail vehicles, fourth road vehicles, ...
07:37<@planetmaker>would not be really more complicated
07:38<@planetmaker>and give easier the rewarding "success!" feeling when one part is finished. And when users then will jump to use it - with what ever other graphics they use
07:38<@planetmaker>and newgrfs are easier added to a game than a base set switched. I believe
07:39<V453000>the problem is he would have to code that newGRF I guess
07:40<Timberdragon>i understand the principal, though i really hate programming and txt editing, id much prefer to work my way through a base set and replace the sprites
07:40<@planetmaker>yes... but programming a simple replacement newgrf is not more difficult than a base grf really. All you need is the grf header
07:40<@planetmaker>other than that it's mostly replace(xxx, ...) instead of base_sprite(xxx, ...)
07:41<@planetmaker>just telling :-)
07:41<V453000>oh, that way :) well that could be simple
07:41<V453000>how many sprites is opengfx?
07:41<@planetmaker>10k approx
07:41<V453000>yeah, thats a lot
07:42<V453000>making smaller pieces of separate newGRF is a bit more motivating :)
07:42<Timberdragon>what i really need is to have a look insinde a newgrf file, how can i bust one open?
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07:42<drac_boy>grfcodec decoding Timberdragon
07:42<@planetmaker>you don#t want to look into a NewGRF file. You want to look into the source code of one
07:43<@planetmaker>decoding by grfcodec for that purpose, honestly, is a very bad idea
07:43<NGC3982>I tried that.
07:43<NGC3982>Didn't work.
07:43<Timberdragon>to study file and folder structure?
07:43<@planetmaker>it's as unreadable and un-understandable as you can get, close to binary / hex code
07:43<drac_boy>why? it gives you the exact nfo file used :)
07:43<@planetmaker>which is... stupid. Really stupid
07:43<V453000>hoho, havent even tried that luckily :)
07:43<NGC3982>To learn NewGRF coding demands looking into NML files, not GRF files, right?
07:43<NGC3982>At least that's how i feel.
07:43<@planetmaker>no comments. no structure, no flow, no context
07:43<drac_boy>NGC3982 its not grf :)
07:44<V453000>nml and sprites
07:44<@planetmaker>NGC3982: yes, that#s what I'd suggest
07:44<NGC3982>drac_boy: Oh? I kind of fell into the conversation by context here. :p
07:44<drac_boy>planetmaker did you somehow miss that nfo does have comments in a lot of files? :)
07:44<drac_boy>NGC3982 heh ok
07:44<NGC3982>planetmaker: I see.
07:44<@planetmaker>drac_boy: action 0C is by far not sufficient to count as "properly commented"
07:45<drac_boy>planetmaker its not action
07:45<@planetmaker>you're advising people to learn assembler. While they can learn C++. So to speak
07:45*drac_boy points to the slashes
07:45<@planetmaker>drac_boy: THAT will NOT be available if you *decode* like *you* suggested
07:45<@planetmaker>try again your argument chain please
07:45<drac_boy>planetmaker really? then how come I have a bunch of them from grf folders?
07:46<V453000>why would you decode a newgrf anyway? :D
07:46<V453000>you either have source of it or not
07:47<Timberdragon>:| ekk, sorry , i just meant i want to look at what goes into a newgrf file..... perhaps decoding is not the way to go.. but how else does a visual learner figure out how to do this?
07:47<drac_boy>V453000 when you downloaded it and wanted to figure out snips of it
07:47<@planetmaker>V453000: in order to understand what they do / modify / get the "source" of those newgrf which you don't have it from
07:47<NGC3982>I don't understand. A decoded GRF is not even relevant if you can obtain the *correct* source?
07:47<V453000>mhm :)
07:47<drac_boy>V453000 mind you thats how I figured out how the whole vehicle id thing worked (including refit affecting it) among a few other things before
07:48<@planetmaker>Anyway Timberdragon: don't mind the fuss. Look at how base set or NewGRFs work in NML. Get the source code of NewGRFs to learn
07:48<V453000>idk the tt-wiki is pretty well written for figuring out things :)
07:48<@planetmaker>There are a bunch of people who're happy to work with open source
07:49<@planetmaker>so that all people can profit from their knowledge and thought. So that people like you have an easier start
07:49<drac_boy>V453000 :)
07:49<drac_boy>V453000 only thing with the wiki yet is lack of more full examples. but thats probably more of a personal thing
07:49<V453000>I annoy people and ask in that case :p
07:49<NGC3982>V453000: The wiki is neat, but some things really need a look-over.
07:50<drac_boy>V453000 heh
07:50<NGC3982>Like it in so many places refers to "Palnetmaker", for instance.
07:50<V453000>what is bad about that
07:50<NGC3982>Simple spelling errors?
07:51<V453000>oh that you mean
07:51<Timberdragon>from a noob stand point the wiki's are all over the place and its difficult to figure out what is useful and what is outdated info
07:51<NGC3982>"Pal-netmaker" should be a dating site for bromances, by the way.
07:51<V453000>idk, in the functions and code-things there arent errors, or at least didnt notice any ... and if there is a typo in the description ... :d so wat
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07:51<NGC3982>Timberdragon: Im with you there.
07:52<Timberdragon>ok so where can i find zbase source to study how he is doing it?
07:52<V453000>[13:07] <@planetmaker> Which basically is what zbase, too:
07:53<Timberdragon>lol oh yeah
07:53<Timberdragon>its open and all X)
07:53<NGC3982>I bet PM owns a DeLorean
07:53<@planetmaker>There's two wikis relevant: with tutorials. and with the language descriptions
07:54<@planetmaker>the latter only contains the read-built base set, I think. But the first is the project page
07:55<V453000>I really like how is updated often ... all the new changes in NML are there usually
07:56<V453000>true that if you see it once in a few months it might be a bit confusing as stuff is different from last time but ... :)
07:59<@planetmaker>V453000: that wiki is the authorative manual. What's not there, that you should not rely on to continue working ;-)
07:59<@planetmaker>same as with the newgrf specs wiki. What is not specified is not guaranteed to work ;-)
07:59<V453000>yes :) but when things I had in the newgrf some time ago and was "right" before and now it disappears :D surprise
08:00<@planetmaker>err what?
08:00<V453000>like the length
08:00<V453000>or "return" in switches
08:00<@planetmaker>that's described in the changes between 0.2 and 0.3
08:01<V453000>haha punished for not reading changelog
08:01<@planetmaker>the return might not. Not sure
08:01<@planetmaker>but length is :-)
08:02<V453000>well all is good and happy in the end :) it works and I think I am done with coding any new features so it is just eventual copypaste now :)
08:02<@planetmaker>:-) good
08:02<@planetmaker>until the next new openttd feature :-P
08:02<V453000>just reached 20k lines of code and 20k sprites yesterday ._.
08:03<V453000>the counts are funny though
08:03<V453000>9 trains from the set have 11000 sprites as they recolour in 17 different colours in cargo subtypes
08:03<V453000>so effectively it is 11k/17 :) just cloned and recoloured
08:03<V453000>funny when in compare to that another 9 trains without such feature have ... 72 sprites
08:08<Timberdragon>decoding .grf files from the zbase project is not the same as decoding newgrf's is that right?
08:12<@planetmaker>Timberdragon: it works the same way. But ... I don't see what information you like to retrieve
08:12<@planetmaker>but meh, suit yourself
08:13<Timberdragon>i just want to look at the sprites and the folder structures to see how it's all set out
08:13<Timberdragon>i can reproduce much faster then i can learn from reading
08:14<Timberdragon>basicly im a dumb ass ;)
08:14<drac_boy>heh :)
08:14<@planetmaker>Timberdragon: a de-coded grf won't tell you anything about "folder structure". Nor about how it was written
08:15<@planetmaker>It will give you all sprites in one big file. Sequentially. Not in the form the artist drew them
08:15<@planetmaker>thus you'll learn basically not much. Especially not about how the grf was made
08:15<V453000>oh it even gives separate sprites? :d that could be a huge mess
08:15<@planetmaker>V453000: it gives you one file with all sprites next to each other separated by some white space
08:16<@planetmaker>with 800px width or so by default. However many fit in one row
08:16<@planetmaker>thus: quite ugly
08:16<Timberdragon>ok so i need to see something before its encoded, is that possible?
08:16<V453000>look at the source I think :)
08:17<@planetmaker>like this:
08:17<@planetmaker>that's a de-coded spriteset
08:17<drac_boy>isn't one file seperated by white pretty much the way to draw anyway? even the raw sprites on forum are laid out the same way
08:17<@planetmaker>drac_boy: that's pretty much not the way I draw
08:17<@planetmaker>and pretty much not the way most people draw tbh
08:17<@planetmaker>they make one file maybe per vehicle, separated those 8 sprites. But in a nice patter
08:18<@planetmaker>the decoded stuff has all of that meta-info thrown away
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08:19<FLHerne>planetmaker: That reminds me for some reason: the offset for one of the hair types in OGFX seems to be a pixel or two off...
08:19<@planetmaker>heck, people even draw the stuff in proper graphics programmes which support layers. And then export the layers, combining different layers to different sprites
08:19<@planetmaker>that even works in a scripted fashion
08:19<Timberdragon>i decoded 32bit trains 2 nights ago and noticed the nfo was useles so i trashed the extracted folder
08:20<@planetmaker>imho similar reasoning applies to the spritesets from a de-coded grf
08:20<@planetmaker>both are not useless. But are the last thing I want to deal with
08:20<Timberdragon>yes i understand
08:20<@planetmaker>as convenient like sanding paper used as toilet paper
08:21<drac_boy>hmm I took a quick look at forum and I can't find any seperated raw sprites except for the occassional single-vehicle grfs :/
08:21<Timberdragon>ok, im trying to find the before hand source for zbase but i can only find the file which only has the grf files in them... in the past i use SVN to access project source files.. is there something similar here?
08:22<FLHerne>planetmaker: European female hair 1 seems to be 1 pixel too far right?
08:22<@planetmaker>Timberdragon: look at the first link I gave... there's a repo link
08:23<@planetmaker>FLHerne: dunno by heart. Maybe :-) Can you make a note in the bug tracker or related forum thread please? Or I'll forget
08:24<@planetmaker>ah, Timberdragon, maybe the link was not that good which I gave... it uses sub repositories
08:24<@planetmaker> has the 32bpp sprites
08:24<@planetmaker> the 8bpp sprites
08:25<Timberdragon>Thats cool, it just means im not going insane after all X)
08:25<@planetmaker> the code for the 8bbp+32bpp combined
08:25<@planetmaker>all that is solved, if you simply checkout that project via mercurial ;-)
08:26<Timberdragon>haha, now we are talking
08:27*drac_boy only has ftp and svn but wouldn't comment :p
08:27<Timberdragon>i already have tortoiseSVN, can i just use that?
08:27<@planetmaker>you need tortoiseHG
08:28<@planetmaker>it's not using svn but mercurial
08:28<@planetmaker>(mercurial = hg)
08:29<Timberdragon>i see
08:30<@planetmaker>thanks for the reply in the forums FLHerne ;-) I restrained myself to answer. Would have been like "please read again" :-P
08:30<@planetmaker>which would not have been very friendly ;-)
08:31<Timberdragon>restarting, brb
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08:32<FLHerne>Sorry, it's Hair 2 actually :P
08:33<drac_boy>just wondering FLHerne how're the tiles going?
08:34<FLHerne>I have a fair number of angles done for the asphalt :-) . I'm not exactly working full-out on it though, just doing odd ones when I get bored :P
08:36<drac_boy>heh...ok :p
08:36*drac_boy is thinking about getting back to my one large grf project when I've finished this model layout yet anyhow
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08:43<@planetmaker>what kind of grf you're working for, FLHerne?
08:43<Timberdragon>:S Is there a channel log somewhere?
08:43<@planetmaker>you didn't miss anything really
08:44<Timberdragon>i didnt save the last few address's
08:49<Timberdragon>SUCCESS!!! well, in 3 days after its finished downloading X)
09:02<FLHerne>planetmaker: CHIPS-style newobjects. I'm trying to redraw the groundtiles for all the slope angles :P
09:02<@planetmaker>oh :-) Sounds tasty
09:04<FLHerne>More tedious :-(
09:04<Timberdragon>hmm i keep getting dc'd while downloading, does "command returned code 255" mean anything?
09:04<FLHerne>Fills in time gaps though LP
09:05<@planetmaker>Timberdragon: downloading what?
09:06<@planetmaker>hm, ho. There's an issue with the http checkout... things are too large...
09:06<@planetmaker>forgot about that
09:07<Timberdragon>transaction aborted... manually this time at least X)
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09:08<@planetmaker>hmpf... the only way which currently works... is via ssh
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09:08<@planetmaker>which... requires you to give me the public key of yours
09:10<Timberdragon>ok, where do i find it?
09:12<@planetmaker>you probably need to create it...
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09:26<Eddi|zuHause>i think when adjusting the purchase list width, we must switch from centering to left aligning the sprites
09:28<Ammler>just to note, we have a new test http hg server running:
09:28<Ammler>this one should allow clone/pull and push without limit
09:29<Ammler>I need to get celery and rabbitmq running and then we will provide hg.o.o with that
09:29<@planetmaker>thus try to clone Timberdragon
09:29<@planetmaker>same thing, different interface ;-)
09:29<Eddi|zuHause>STR_TINY_BLACK_COMA <-- is that a typo?
09:30<Timberdragon>thank god for that, i was upto Puttygen for key and was about to grab a gun to put myself out of misery X)
09:31<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: it is code for being drunk out of your mind
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10:43<nicfer>how do I checkout a specific revision with svn?
10:43<@planetmaker>svn up -rXXX
10:44<@planetmaker>and svn help co is your friend
10:44<nicfer>I just did that
10:45<nicfer>I did svn -h and didn't saw I could do svn help co
10:46<FLHerne>Downloading a zBase build from fails :-(
10:46<@planetmaker>FLHerne: what's the error?
10:48<FLHerne>After a few seconds, the download stalls. Pausing and restarting seems to work, but then it stalls again...and so on
10:49<nicfer>at which directory shall I apply a patch?
10:49<FLHerne>It's finally downloaded :-)
10:49<TrueBrain>do you have that more often FLHerne, with other sites? :)
10:49<nicfer>at /trunk or /trunk/src?
10:49<FLHerne>TrueBrain: Never :P
10:49<@planetmaker>does it, by chance, stop at 23MB, FLHerne?
10:50<@planetmaker>Ammler: any idea? ^
10:50<TrueBrain>I remember the day I had a damaged cat-5 cable, where the 4th wire was damaged ... transmissions went fine till a certain kb/s, then it just ... stopped .... took for ever to trace and fix :P :D
10:50<Eddi|zuHause><nicfer> I did svn -h and didn't saw I could do svn help co <- it says that in like the 3rd line
10:51<FLHerne>I didn't check, will try again
10:51<@planetmaker>nicfer: that depends on the patch. And whether svn can deal with the patch at all
10:51<Eddi|zuHause>1st line: usage, 2nd line: version, 3rd line: use "svn help <command>"
10:52<@planetmaker>(or rather your patch programme. It's not svn itself which does the patching)
10:52<Ammler>planetmaker: no clue
10:53<FLHerne>planetmaker: No, it doesn't. Just tried twice, 4.4MB and then 7.4
10:53<Eddi|zuHause>nicfer: most patches are made to be applied at trunk/
10:53<FLHerne>Had to pause and restart about 15 times when downloading...seems to md5sum ok though :-)
10:53*planetmaker tries again...
10:53<@planetmaker>you mean, like the 15th time it downloaded all 150MB?
10:54<Ammler>apache crap
10:54<FLHerne>No, I just paused the download when it stalled and then had it resume from where it stopped :P
10:55<@planetmaker>lol lol. I get like 74 bytes/s :-P
10:55<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: when i tried to check out FISH recently, hg clone didn't work, but hg clone --pull did work
10:56<@planetmaker>now, that's *really* annoying, FLHerne. Thanks for the notification
10:57<TrueBrain>QoS going haywire? :)
10:57<@planetmaker>seems like :'-(
10:57<TrueBrain>some mirrors do that to an extreme. .. you start your download at 100 mbit/s, you go: WOW!
10:57<@planetmaker>and it's not my local pipe here...
10:57<TrueBrain>then after 10 seconds, it cuts down to 10 KiB/s
10:58<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: bad rate limiting software that takes too long to kick in?
10:58<TrueBrain>in fact, many (free) mirrors still do that
10:59<FLHerne>Here, it literally drops to 0bits/s and stays there :P
10:59<TrueBrain>talking about mirrors, I am trying to piece together mirror v2 for OpenTTD, but sjees, it is hard :(
11:00<TrueBrain>those 100+ MiB GRFs are a real pain :P
11:00<@planetmaker>TrueBrain: and... it's only the beginning ;-)
11:01<@planetmaker>zbase currently is at 150MB. And it's like 40...50% done
11:01<TrueBrain>I am trying to piece together a solution, where when a mirror hasn't received a file yet, other can already serve a file if they did
11:01<TrueBrain>but how do you know? How do you store it?
11:01<TrueBrain>does the balancer (which redirects you to a mirror) sends HEAD to each file to see if the mirror already has it?
11:01<FLHerne>Give OTTD a BitTorrent client? :P
11:02<TrueBrain>do you make a DB table to keep track of this kind of information? (terribly slow to query a DB every time)
11:02<TrueBrain>and I can't find any software that does anything remotely like this
11:02<TrueBrain>FLHerne: played Diablo 3 or World of Warcraft?
11:02<TrueBrain>2 good examples why you should never do that :P
11:02<@planetmaker>FLHerne: your start-stop "solution" works... but... meh
11:02<FLHerne>TrueBrain: Nope. What breaks?
11:03<TrueBrain>they allow you to download the client by torrent or http
11:03<TrueBrain>http via the launcher is rate limited
11:03<TrueBrain>when I had a 100 mbit/s pipe, torrent took 20+ hours, http via launcher 10+ hours, http via browser 1 hour
11:03<TrueBrain>and those 2 games are not small (in people downloading etc)
11:03<@planetmaker>sounds like torrent is limited. Not http
11:04<TrueBrain>planetmaker: its not; just too many people download from those very small upstreams of people ....
11:04<TrueBrain>most connections are 10:1 (downstream:upstream)
11:05<@planetmaker>yes, round about
11:05<TrueBrain>its always a nice example for me that those solutiosn work well for many low-quality connections ... but suck if you have a decent connection :P
11:05*FLHerne just had to killall OTTD :-(
11:05<FLHerne>32bpp doesn't seem to like my computer, or vice versa :P
11:05<TrueBrain>you are doing it wrong :D
11:05<@planetmaker>surely 32bpp doesn't like your computer. Not vice versa :-P
11:05<FLHerne>Perhaps I should find a stable/trunk build and try that :P
11:06<TrueBrain>anyway, if anyone knows a good mirroring solution, either in software or idea, please, do let me know; kinda running thin in solutions here :D
11:06<@planetmaker>you need to paint your box first with some colours. Then they'll feel more at home
11:06<TrueBrain>hmm, I might as well post on the forums, might be easier
11:07*planetmaker goes do some needed shopping before continuing the stupidity path with comments here ;-)
11:07<@planetmaker>(I only mean mine)
11:10<FLHerne>Mmm. If I set blitter to 32bpp-anim, start 1.2.1, select zBase as baseset and start a new game, should I be seeing 32bpp graphics? :P
11:11<FLHerne>Oops, my fault :-(
11:12<FLHerne>I should probably remove OGFX+ Landscape first :P
11:14<Ammler>I can't download zbase either
11:16<frosch123>FLHerne: you do not even have to set the blitter
11:16<frosch123>unless you force a 8bpp blitter, it will select a 32bpp one itself
11:17<TrueBrain>btw, Ammler, I guess this is one for you: the last 2 days I am receiving timeouts, refused connectiosn and DNS errors when accesing (CompileFarm reports them)
11:17<FLHerne>Does that override old .cfgs, though? :P
11:19<Ammler>I want back my old server, where I didn't need to care about readiness :-(
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11:26<TrueBrain>there, posted about my issue :P
11:26<TrueBrain>all (wanna-be) sysops: read and reply! :P
11:27<Sacro>TrueBrain: I am a sysop
11:27<Sacro>what can I read?
11:27<TrueBrain>my last post
11:28<TrueBrain>can't miss it, I hope :P
11:28<Ammler>download around 8mb, then stop :-(
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11:46<Ammler>TrueBrain: this would not have happen, if you wouldn't have such a stupid TOS :-P
11:48<Ammler>and instead to make it more common, you made it more silly with the checkbox
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11:52<Ammler>a guy, which took the effort to reclaim newships as his grf will also just click that box
11:53<Rubidium>but they can't say they 'forgot' that fact
11:53<Rubidium>they agreed to it twice
11:54<TrueBrain>Ammler: I don't see how it is relevant. This is an issue how to selectively push stuff to a mirror, because the mirrors want that
11:55<Ammler>TrueBrain: maybe I saw the wrong thread from you then :-)
11:56<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: that post is months old..
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11:57<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: still on top
11:57<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: "We talk about 45k files here." <-- maybe make the decision per-directory, and not per-file?
11:57<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: that's because it's an announcement
11:57<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: announcements, stickies, normal topics...
12:00<TrueBrain>Ammler: I said: my last post
12:00<TrueBrain>which is not "top post"
12:01<TrueBrain>which is silly
12:01<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: given there are roughly 50 files in 1 dir, that still leaves a huge list :P
12:03<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: and i think you forgot a point, there are 3 cases, the file is not there, the file is there, and an old version of the file is there
12:04<Eddi|zuHause>and that no incomplete files are there must be made sure during the rsync
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12:11<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: is clone with --pull like pulling every changeset individually?
12:11<Ammler>which url did you use to clone?
12:12<Eddi|zuHause>my exact command line was "hg clone --pull fish"
12:13<Eddi|zuHause>and i don't know how pull exactly works. i just found this entry in the help and though i should try it. " --pull Nutzt das 'Pull'-Protokoll um Metadaten zu kopieren"
12:13<Rubidium>TrueBrain: what about splitting the removal and addition of files for mirroring. Then first add the files, then update the cache (maybe once every so many minutes/seconds) and after that run/trigger the removal
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12:17<Rubidium>maybe have two classes of 'mirrors': full and partial, where partial is just a small subset. Upon query find the closest mirror. If it's full, return that, if it's not figure out whether the file will be on the mirror (can't be that expensive I'd guess if you store paths; then it's just a hash lookup: O(1)). If it is on the subset mirror, return, otherwise get the nearest mirror in the full mirror list
12:19<Rubidium>with store paths is: have a list with the paths that are pushed to the 'small' mirrors (that's maybe 50 entries?)
12:19<Ammler>or use something like mirrorbrain
12:22<TrueBrain>Rubidium: please post that to the thread, so I can read it later when I am not cooking dinner etc ;)
12:24<TrueBrain>(you say it is not expensive, but I think you forget how that hash gets filled/stored/saved/loaded .. it is not as trivial as you want it to appear here ;))
12:24<Rubidium>write the list to a file, inotify
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12:25<Rubidium> (IN_CLOSE_WRITE)
12:26<Eddi|zuHause>that should have been pynotify :)
12:26<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: no, pienotify
12:27<Eddi|zuHause>pyinotify does sound like stuttering
12:27<Rubidium>IN_OVEN_OFF ;)
12:28<Rubidium>filling the file with data, that's the trickier part. However, that's the thing that determines whether something is going to be mirrored or not
12:29<Rubidium>and thus it could be some filter over find $binaries
12:30<Eddi|zuHause>if we fix it on a 2-class system, i'd probably make a positive-list of what files (or directories) are in the "small" mirrors.
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12:31<Rubidium>and with rsync I'd expect the file cache to be hot-ish. time find $binaries | grep log | wc takes a whopping 0.118 seconds
12:31<Eddi|zuHause>so upon incoming request, you hash the directory, ask the file whether the hash is in there, and if yes, return a "small" mirror, if no, return a "large" mirror.
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12:51<TrueBrain>Rubidium: so you mean make files like:, to indicate the NL mirror has that directory?
12:51<TrueBrain>(and dn't sync that file, ofc)
12:52<Rubidium>no, just make a file with all the files a particular mirror has
12:52<TrueBrain>hmm I wonder if rsync can tell you that
12:53<Rubidium>you tell which files rsync should sync, don't you?
12:53<TrueBrain>hmm, I guess that is another approach
12:53<TrueBrain>I was thinking about simply running rsync over all dirs you want to rsync
12:53<TrueBrain>but I guess you can also suplpy it with a list he should
12:54<TrueBrain>I wonder if that can be done per directory
12:54<TrueBrain>(also, the idea is that per mirror can be selected which files are there, but that would be allowed in this approach I guess)
12:54<TrueBrain>some mirrors explicitly only want the latest stable (non-nightly)
12:55<frosch123>syncing a list of files?
12:55<frosch123>might be tricky for removing files
12:55<TrueBrain>it should remove any file not on the list anymore
12:55<TrueBrain>rsync has an option for that
12:55<Rubidium>TrueBrain: aren't those mirrors that only want latest stable more or less useless; bananas consumes much more I think
12:55<frosch123>oh, i expected it would only remove files on the list which are not at the source location
12:56<TrueBrain>Rubidium: during releases they are not useless
12:56<TrueBrain>(the first few days, basically)
12:56<frosch123>Rubidium: wouldn't those mirrors also want the basesets?
12:57<Rubidium>frosch123: but that's only for first use, after that you update via bananas
12:57<Ammler>rsync has built in .rsync-filter file support
12:57<frosch123>well, but if it handles zbase that would also be some
12:57<TrueBrain>how still will grow exactly, time will tell .. I just want the ability to change
12:58<TrueBrain>now it is either all or none
12:58<TrueBrain>which are too much of an extreme ;)
12:58<frosch123>alternatively we could modify ottd to only download files when they are going to be used :p
12:58<TrueBrain>Ammler: you said exactly nothing; can you give a bit more context to your comment?
12:58<TrueBrain>cool, --files-from accepts directories just fine, that is nice
12:59<TrueBrain>frosch123: as far as I understand, with --files-from rsync sents that list to the mirror, it compares it with its local list, and removes any file not on it (when you say it should delete, that is)
12:59<TrueBrain>then syncs any file not matchines the checksum
12:59<TrueBrain>(which is mtime I believe?)
13:01<Ammler>TrueBrain: well, mirrors can configure filter on directory level themself (or you edit those), point is, rsync supports that natively (option -F, iirc)
13:01<TrueBrain>-F is write-batch
13:02<TrueBrain>please dont 'iirc', but please give concrete useful information .. tnx :)
13:02<Ammler>-F same as --filter='dir-merge /.rsync-filter'
13:02<Rubidium>frosch123: but aren't all files used during scanning?
13:02<Ammler>maybe depends on version
13:02<TrueBrain>you still haven't really told me wtf it does
13:03<TrueBrain>absolutely unclear to me, sorry :)
13:03<TrueBrain>(I might be slow, I dunno)
13:03<Ammler>just how to provide/manage mirror dependend syncing
13:04<TrueBrain>that is the subject, yes :)
13:06<TrueBrain>still no clue what you try to point out ..
13:06<frosch123>TrueBrain: --delete-excluded seems to be the option
13:06<Ammler>imo easiest way to allow mirrors to configure, which files they want on their disk
13:07<TrueBrain>frosch123: yup :)
13:07<TrueBrain>frosch123: it is a USE WITH CARE flag
13:07<TrueBrain>Ammler: and how would we do such thing?
13:07<Ammler>but no clue, how that is done with rsync < 3
13:08<frosch123>Rubidium: we could also just download the 8bpp normal zoom part
13:08<Ammler>maybe it has --filter
13:08<frosch123>and update the rest only via password or so :p
13:08<frosch123>TrueBrain: rsync can also read the filelist from the destination
13:09<TrueBrain>frosch123: I expected as much; that is great :)
13:09<TrueBrain>happen to know how?
13:09<frosch123>though i don't know how the balacner would get that info
13:09<TrueBrain>rsync script starts
13:09<TrueBrain>when finishes, it runs that
13:10<TrueBrain>balancer detects file is changed
13:10<Ammler>replace balancer with mirrorbrain
13:10<TrueBrain>would mean not having to care about rsync giving errors
13:11<frosch123>TrueBrain: you mean --files-from=:/foo/bar with ":" in front of the path?
13:11<TrueBrain>frosch123: I have no clue?
13:11<TrueBrain>what would it do?
13:11<frosch123>i just read the man page
13:12<frosch123>you set a path for a file on the remote machine, which can then contain stuff like "releases/" or "/releases/LATEST" or "bananas"
13:12<TrueBrain>ah, remote host location
13:12<TrueBrain>no, I don't see how that is useful
13:12<TrueBrain>the mirror hosters won't want to maintain such files
13:12<TrueBrain>we can just do that for them, that is perfectly fine
13:12<frosch123>it would not be a list of files, but a list of top-level dirs
13:12<frosch123>but again, the balancer would know about that
13:13<TrueBrain>like: */releases/* ;)
13:13<TrueBrain>how I think it would work, if I get this all right
13:13<TrueBrain>we have a file, say,
13:13<TrueBrain>it contains stuff like */releases/*
13:13<TrueBrain>I dunno
13:13<frosch123>yeah, so not on remote
13:13<TrueBrain>gives directories we want
13:13<TrueBrain>we run rsync
13:13<TrueBrain>it syncs it etc
13:13<TrueBrain>then we run a command (??), which tells us which files are now on the mirror
13:13<TrueBrain>store that in
13:13<frosch123>you can also run that file through some preprocessor and replace $LATEST with 1.2.0 :p
13:13<TrueBrain>the balancer reads that file, and per file now knows who has it
13:14<TrueBrain>yup, would work indeed
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: so the balancer picks a mirror, looks up whether it has that file, then picks next mirror?
13:14<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: no
13:14<TrueBrain>I wouldn't know why he would do that ...
13:14<TrueBrain>"and per file now knows who has it"
13:14<TrueBrain>it knows, PER FILE, who has it
13:15<TrueBrain>so .... when you ask a file at the balancer, he KNOWS who has it
13:15<TrueBrain>so it picks a mirror from that pool
13:15<Eddi|zuHause>ah, so cache has a mapping from filename:mirror-list
13:15<Eddi|zuHause>for each file
13:15<TrueBrain>let me try this again :)
13:15<TrueBrain> has a filelist, wha tis on the NL mirror
13:16<TrueBrain>the balancer reads this file in an array files[file] = [ "nl", "de", ]
13:16<TrueBrain>more clear?
13:16<frosch123>can ottd handle downloading stuff from different mirrors? i.e. does it notice which mirror server it, or does that not matter at all?
13:16<frosch123>(i mean a scenario where the user selects two files via ingame gui, which are on different mirrors only)
13:16<TrueBrain>frosch123: don't know if I understand your question completely, but you do bring up a good question ..
13:16<TrueBrain>I cannot remember how we told the client about a mirror
13:17<TrueBrain>if we did it once in a package, or for every entry
13:17<TrueBrain>Rubidium: do you remember?
13:17<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: can't use dns-based balancing in that case, only redirects
13:17<frosch123>it was some standard http stuff iirc :p
13:17<frosch123>though i have no idea about http
13:17<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: we don't use dns based balancing
13:17<frosch123>it just sounded standard :p
13:17<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: then i don't see why it would not work
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>assuming the game does not do any magic to combine requests
13:18<TrueBrain>ottd_content can reply in 2 ways: either a http, or an internal entry
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>and starts separate requests for each file
13:18<TrueBrain>the client then downloads it
13:18<TrueBrain>but what I don't remember, is if it caches the redirect
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: i think that would be bad architecture. the game would contain logic about the structure of mirrors, which it really shouldn't
13:19<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: with full mirrors, that is no problem at all
13:19<TrueBrain>and has nothing to do with bad architecture
13:19<TrueBrain>but with optimization
13:19<TrueBrain>but I think we didn't do it
13:19<TrueBrain>for statistics reasons
13:19<TrueBrain>my memory is so terrible at times :(
13:20<TrueBrain>url = mirrors[m]['url'] + url
13:20<TrueBrain>well, that answers that question
13:20<TrueBrain>so clients get the mirror URL
13:20<TrueBrain>so that would be no issue at all
13:21<Rubidium>that's about what I wanted to say
13:21<TrueBrain>so yeah, then this approach should work
13:21<TrueBrain>only remaining question: how do you get a remote file list? :D
13:22<Rubidium>ugh... already people are mentioning Sintnicolaas :(
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>you mean after rsync runs, get the filelist to doublecheck?
13:23<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: please do read what I wrote :P
13:23<TrueBrain>nothing 'double check'
13:23*Rubidium should eat something
13:23<TrueBrain>Rubidium: enjoy :)
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: i phrased that badly
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: i meant: "do not trust that rsync ran correctly, read the actual result"
13:23<TrueBrain>it is needed
13:23<TrueBrain>we "often" have mirrors that run out of diskspace
13:23<TrueBrain>how ever annoying, but it happens
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>and rsync itself cannot handle that?
13:24<TrueBrain>it might
13:24<TrueBrain>but that is a lot of work tbh
13:24<TrueBrain>rsync is not really .... userfriendly in its return values
13:24<TrueBrain>what is easier than: rsync && rsync-list ;)
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>so you ssh into it, run ls, and read the output?
13:24<TrueBrain>maybe even rsync; rsync-list
13:24<TrueBrain>we often cannot ssh
13:24<TrueBrain>only rsync-ssh
13:25<Ammler>also that would not allow to provide a file as soon as it is uploaded
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13:26<TrueBrain>as soon as rsync finishes, yes
13:26<TrueBrain>which has a hidden benefit: a nightly has to be completely uploaded before a mirror starts serving it
13:26<TrueBrain>might avoid a few cases of: why isn't there XXX, but YYY is there already!
13:26<TrueBrain>its a small benefit :P
13:28<TrueBrain>list-only ofc would be sufficient to list remote
13:28<TrueBrain>as you can just put the remote server as 'source'
13:28<TrueBrain>I was searching for a too complex solution :D
13:28<TrueBrain>btw, Ammler, MirrorBrain has a few 404 pages on their homepage, which is annoying :P
13:29<TrueBrain>and we have a very special balancer
13:29<frosch123>something like running rsync a second time with --dry-run --itemize-changes might give a list of files which failed to transfer
13:29<TrueBrain>as it can also spew out ottd:// urls ;)
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13:29<TrueBrain>frosch123: that might also be nice, yes
13:29<TrueBrain>good idea tbh
13:29<TrueBrain>as I can trigger emails on that
13:30<TrueBrain>frosch123: wait, no .. what if the filesystem changed in that time?
13:30<TrueBrain>a new upload for example?
13:30<Ammler>TrueBrain: I don't know mirrorbrain, I just know SUSE or KDE uses it
13:30<TrueBrain>another reason btw for you Eddi|zuHause, to list the files remotely ;)
13:30<TrueBrain>the local system can ben changed already :D
13:30<frosch123>TrueBrain: well, that means that you cannot use that mirror for that file
13:30<frosch123>which is correct
13:31<TrueBrain>frosch123: but I cannot trigger emails on it :P
13:31<frosch123>you just need to reconsider your email
13:31<Ammler>there is one url for every suse package, no need to search for mirrors like you do with other distros
13:31<frosch123>except you add some threshold
13:31<TrueBrain>so I am better off listing the remote files, not?
13:31<TrueBrain>as then I am sure I have the right list :)
13:31<frosch123>if it fails on 10 files or more
13:31<frosch123>just listing the files does not tell you whether they are complete, does it?
13:32<frosch123>rsync --dry-run would list you the files which need transfering resp. need no transfering
13:32<TrueBrain>frosch123: rsync promises that
13:32<TrueBrain>if a transfer fails, it removes the file
13:32<TrueBrain>I will have to test what it does if a file already existed, but .. that we can test :)
13:32<TrueBrain>problem about your --dry-run approach, is that it would be a negative list
13:32<TrueBrain>which are annoying to handle tbh :P
13:33<TrueBrain>as ... I have to list all files on the local system
13:33<TrueBrain>then run --dry-run
13:33<TrueBrain>and remove the files it returns
13:33<TrueBrain>but I do agree, we need to be sure files transfered correctly
13:33<TrueBrain>which brings me to the question: how does rsync detect?
13:33<TrueBrain>mtime, md5, ... ?
13:34<frosch123>TrueBrain: it can also list the files which need no transfering
13:34<TrueBrain>Ammler: pretty much like OpenTTD does? :P
13:34<frosch123>TrueBrain: rsync uses checksums
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13:34<frosch123>it can even transfer binary differences
13:34<TrueBrain>that is when it detected a change, yes
13:34<TrueBrain>one does not imply the other
13:34<TrueBrain>or exclude/include even ;)
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13:34<TrueBrain>checksums sounds very expensive
13:34<Ammler>TrueBrain: yes, but that it does because ervery mirror has everything, you need something to support selective, don't you?
13:34<TrueBrain>as it would trigger a lot of traffic on the remote
13:35<TrueBrain>Ammler:<url> always works
13:35<TrueBrain>1 URL
13:35<TrueBrain>which directs you to a valid mirror
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13:35<TrueBrain>frosch123: are you sure it uses checksums?
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13:36<frosch123>TrueBrain: --checksum
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13:36<TrueBrain>so normally it does mtime + size
13:36<frosch123>so yeah, it might not de by default
13:36<TrueBrain>you have to explicitely say to do checksums :)
13:36<TrueBrain>k, that is what I would expect
13:36<Ammler>TrueBrain: something like
13:36<TrueBrain>TCP transfers are guarenteed
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13:37<TrueBrain>frosch123: I will have to test what happens exactly if a transfer gets aborted
13:37<TrueBrain>Ammler: yes
13:37<TrueBrain>minus the binaries I beliee
13:37<TrueBrain>not sure
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13:37<Ammler>does not matter, both don't :-)
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13:38<TrueBrain>hmm, connection is SLOW
13:38<TrueBrain>holy crap
13:38<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: TrueBrain
13:38<TrueBrain>so it is me ...
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13:38*andythenorth ponders forums
13:38<TrueBrain>120ms latency ... 20% packet loss ...
13:39<TrueBrain>as example URL
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13:40<Ammler>according to the mirrorbrain docs, that should work
13:40<TrueBrain>okay, with all the ideas here, I think that might work ...
13:40<Ammler>and how suse mirrors are handled
13:40<TrueBrain>Ammler: again, we cannot use that, as we also spit out ottd:// URLs
13:40<TrueBrain>it is just in reply to what you said: Suse does it like that; all I said was: so do we
13:40<TrueBrain>we don't list the mirrors next, no, we just redirect you there
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13:41<Ammler>oh, I thought, you need to have all mirrors provide everything
13:41<TrueBrain>I hate those redirect pages :P
13:41<TrueBrain>huh? I think you missed like 90% of what we talked about :P
13:41<TrueBrain>the current software needs full mirrors for listing see thread
13:41<frosch123>TrueBrain: --ignore-errors might be needed as well
13:41<TrueBrain>we just spend 30 minutes talking how to resolve that :)
13:41<TrueBrain>frosch123: can you make a list of all those commands for me and post it?
13:42<TrueBrain>I will forget, and this channel is a bitch to get a backlog on :D
13:42<TrueBrain>tnx already :)
13:42<TrueBrain>Rubidium / Eddi|zuHause: also tnx a lot for the input; this might just work :D
13:43<TrueBrain>Ammler: for BaNaNaS files protected under ToS from public publishing, we reply ottd:// URLs, which only works for the OpenTTD client
13:43<TrueBrain>I don't see how I can add that to MirrorBrain .. and honestly, the balancer is shit easy/small/fast/etc :P
13:43<TrueBrain>Python and its SimpleHTTPServer ... :D:D :)
13:44<Ammler>those files, you don't mirror anyway
13:44<TrueBrain>but the mirror replies to the request for them :)
13:44<TrueBrain>its a special page with special conditions :)
13:45<TrueBrain>anyway, I got to go for the evening. Tnx all, happy to finally see some way to resolve this clean and nicely :D
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: translators * r24461 /trunk/src/lang/ (belarusian.txt luxembourgish.txt portuguese.txt turkish.txt):
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: belarusian - 10 changes by Wowanxm
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: luxembourgish - 1 changes by Phreeze
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: portuguese - 51 changes by ricardoespsanto
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: turkish - 151 changes by otrkmen
13:45<Ammler>I just hope, you get it fast working, our devzone seems not to be able to handle it
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14:01<neofutur>still trying to configure my city builder server
14:01<neofutur>where shoudl I put the ewgrf settings like [preset-lcb-temp] ?
14:02<frosch123>into openttd.cfg likely
14:02<neofutur>( planetmaker and Rubidium thanks for the answers ;)
14:02<frosch123>just append it at the end
14:02<Eddi|zuHause>presets are probably fairly useless on a dedicated server
14:02<neofutur>NGC3982: yup trying to setup a city builder server before luukland shutdowns )
14:02<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: good point
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14:03<neofutur>patched client and servers are working, but cities are still needeing nothing
14:03<NGC3982>neofutur: I guess i could host my own? :)
14:03<neofutur>I have them in openttd.cfg but they dont seem to be applied, cities needing nothing
14:03<Eddi|zuHause>neofutur: make sure it uses the right .cfg?
14:04<neofutur>NGC3982: eh for sure if you have a dedicated server
14:04<neofutur>Eddi|zuHause: yes i launch it with -c /usr/local/share/games/openttd/openttd.cfg
14:04<NGC3982>neofutur: ;)
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>neofutur: what are the citybuilder-related settings, and what does the console think their values are?
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14:06<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: "--dry-run --itemize-changes --itemize-changes | grep '^.' " that doesn't look right
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14:07<frosch123>if you mean the duplicated option, that is correct
14:07<Eddi|zuHause>may need better documentation then :)
14:09<Eddi|zuHause>yes :
14:10<andythenorth>TrueBrain: I have only scan read the mirrors thing and I am sick and my head is fuzzy
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>hehe :)
14:10<andythenorth>but sounds like a problem usually solved by CDN (the large file type, not the small file type)
14:10<frosch123>duplicate options are sometimes used as enhancement
14:10<frosch123>-v is verbose, -v -v is very verbose and so on :)
14:12<neofutur>Eddi|zuHause: i added the settings found in the pdf
14:12<neofutur>at the end of openttd.cfg
14:12<neofutur>theres no graphical display on the server, how can I use the console from the client ?
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>neofutur: ah, so you need to copy one of the [preset] entries to [newgrf]
14:13<neofutur>i was suspecting something like that
14:13<neofutur>the pdf is not very detailed about this
14:13<neofutur>ok I just put
14:13<neofutur>cbreqfull.grf = 0 250 500 100 2 40 1000 100 5 250 1500 5 9 111 0 5 10 59 2500 2 11 125 0 10 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
14:13<neofutur>in the [newgrf] section
14:14<frosch123>you can drop the trailing 0 probably
14:14<andythenorth>so we don't pay mirrors, right?
14:14<Eddi|zuHause>well that depends on the grf. there's a difference between "unset" and "zero"
14:14<frosch123>and if you use it like that, you have to make sure that the file is actually in the root "newgrf" dir
14:15<frosch123>andythenorth: we might offer them a cake at the 25k or 30k party
14:15<frosch123>s/cake/piece of cake/
14:16<Eddi|zuHause>unless the cake is a lie.
14:17<NGC3982>Unless it's also a quantum cake?
14:17<NGC3982>So it can be true and false at the same time
14:17<NGC3982>While not being a cake
14:18<frosch123>if a cake is too continental, i can also make muffins, they are more archipelagish
14:19<neofutur>I can help providing mirrors if needed
14:19<neofutur>( also for a free CDN appengine is great )
14:19<frosch123>mirroring cakes?
14:20<frosch123>neofutur: have a look at
14:21<frosch123>since we currently do not support partial mirrors (see discussion above), the requirements are quite big
14:22<frosch123>TrueBrain: is there a more up-to-date list? e.g. one which mention the proper host of our main server :)
14:25<neofutur>ok the cb setting is there now
14:26<neofutur>and the client is required to download a newgrf "city builder cargo requirements"
14:27<neofutur>that cant be found, i have the same problem with the other city builder server on the metaserver list
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14:27<andythenorth>TrueBrain: probably of no help at all:
14:28<neofutur>frosch123: thanks for the link, i ll contact
14:29<neofutur>I have dedicated servers in france with unlimited transfer
14:32<neofutur>100 GB is possible, recent servers have 2 TB raid
14:36<neofutur>ah i needed the newgrf from the citybuider patch on the client side
14:36<neofutur>it seems theres nowhere they can be downloaded online
14:36<neofutur>yeah towns now need cargo !
14:37<neofutur>the server is named "testing citybuilder server" if anyone wants to help me test it
14:41*neofutur emailed truebrain for the mirror proposal
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14:46<neofutur>TrueBrain: you have mail ;) query me for any question for the mirror proposal
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14:47<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: the failure to find "NoSound" actually might well be related. Every OpenTTD comes with that soundset...
14:49<andythenorth>I take it that we don't have so many donations we can afford a CDN?
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14:50<@planetmaker>what's a CDN?
14:50<andythenorth>for us CDN means 'someone else has to worry about distributing the files around the world'
14:51<andythenorth>unless they screw up :P
14:51<andythenorth>but it's €some per terabyte
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14:51*andythenorth points and waves at the 'buy newgrfs, €1 per download' idea :P
14:52<@planetmaker>we only allow signed newgrfs
14:53<neofutur>that is a cdn, content is distributed on many different ips in different datacenters
14:54<neofutur>allows you to use appengine as a great free cdn
14:54<neofutur>hum the town says it need steel to grow, but the stops are not needing it
14:55<@planetmaker> <-- now. This is a question I happily answered :-) Haven't seen it ever :-)
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15:41<neofutur>yeah, got a growing town on my citybuilder server for the fiereet time
15:41<neofutur>first time
15:43<neofutur>anyone know why luuklnd will shutdown his services
15:43<neofutur>and why he sets such a high price ( 200 Keur ) ?
15:47<Xaroth>because he's a muppet?
15:48<neofutur>well he built something great, working well
15:48<Xaroth>he's got something against openttd, but at the same time, he works with it
15:48<Xaroth>which is a classic case of being a muppet
15:48<neofutur>his servers are by far the most active
15:48<neofutur>first i understood the price was 200 eur, I thought I d try to buy it :p
15:51<frosch123>you can buy luukland for 200k€ ?
15:52<frosch123>who would do that? they rather should ask for 200M€, that might get some facebook inverstors
15:53<neofutur>frosch123: yup 200000 eur
15:53<andythenorth>so that's about £14 sterling?
15:53<neofutur>if no one pays he will shut it all down
15:56<@planetmaker>neofutur: that price tag exists as long as the servers exist
15:57<Rubidium>no, it was half of that price
15:58<@planetmaker>it's a bad attempt trying to annoy us openttd devs, to illustrate that they don't share their ideas and code with us devils
15:59<neofutur>its related to a licence problem ?
15:59<Rubidium>yes, those OpenTTD devs are bad because they care more about the security of all OpenTTD users than the fun/hacks of a few
15:59<neofutur>k, so better try to build a team around this free city building patch
16:00<Xaroth>better to try and use NoGO
16:00<@planetmaker>neofutur: I would suggest... to use the game script approach
16:00<neofutur>is there any plans to accept this city building patch in the official client ?
16:00<@planetmaker>no. never
16:00<Xaroth>it can probably do 90%, if not more, of what luukland's servers do
16:00<neofutur>why ? thats something people love ?
16:00<@planetmaker>as you can do the same with game scripts
16:00<Xaroth>neofutur: NoGo can already do it
16:00<Xaroth>why implement something that already can be done?
16:00<@planetmaker>which is the interface written for that exact purpose
16:01<@planetmaker>and there's at least three gamescripts in the online content which deal to some extent with town growth
16:01<Xaroth>more so, why implement something -that cannot be changed without recompiling-, when there's already something in place that works somewhat dynamicly
16:01<@planetmaker>did you look at them?
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16:02<neofutur>no, this patch seem to provide a working server, i found no howto links to how to implement this with this nogo
16:02<neofutur>and no working citybuilding server ewither
16:02<Xaroth>that's because with NoGo you're not limited to what the script does..
16:03-!-Pixa [] has joined #openttd
16:03<@planetmaker>game scripts do run serverside...
16:03<@planetmaker>really. Try to understand what game scripts do. How they work. How they can help you there
16:03<neofutur>are there some examples of this kinf of scripts ?
16:03<@planetmaker>It really was written for that exact purpose. Just as a general API
16:03<Xaroth>game scripts can already do more than the citybuilding patches do
16:03<@planetmaker>... yes.
16:04<neofutur>how many hours of work would I need to make it a citybuilding server ?
16:04<neofutur>anyone ever tried ?
16:04<@planetmaker>just grab one of the game scripts which does that...
16:04<@planetmaker>undefined, if you want them to do exactly what *you* want
16:04<neofutur>k I ll search again more info about this
16:04<Xaroth>neofutur: judging from your lack of initiative, more than you think...
16:04<@planetmaker>then it's your programming knowledge in squirrel which defines it
16:05<neofutur>Xaroth: lack of initiative on what ?
16:05<neofutur>for now my initiative is setting up a server, coming here on irc, trying to understand ?
16:06<neofutur>what is youre problem Xaroth ?
16:06<Xaroth>neofutur: well, we only mentioned NoGo 5 times, yet you only ask questions about it that can be googled/wiki'ed in seconds
16:06<Xaroth>so to me, that shows a severe lack of initiative.. you want to make it work, but you don't want to spend any effort in doing so
16:07<neofutur>no, I just discover this nogo thing
16:07<neofutur>for now i have a working citybuilding based on the patch
16:07<Xaroth>yes, but as mentioned several times already
16:07<+glx>using a patched server is rarely a good idea
16:07<Xaroth>patches are not useful
16:07<neofutur>patched server is not my problem, but the fact it needs a patched client is for sure a problem
16:08<Xaroth>and that's where NoGo comes in :)
16:08-!-KingPixaIII [~pixa@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:08<Xaroth>there's a big post on the forum about it
16:08<Xaroth>and no doubt several wiki pages
16:09<neofutur>Xaroth: thanks for the link
16:10<neofutur>thanks, that will help me stop bothering you by talking in here
16:10<Xaroth>it doesn't bother me at all
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16:18<neofutur>so , having a look at
16:18<neofutur>the nearest script to a citybuilding game would be CityDomination ?
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16:19<@planetmaker>It's one of those three I mentioned at 9am this morning, yes
16:21<@planetmaker>the "neighbors are important" is another very interesting one
16:22<@planetmaker>the city growth limiter might give interesting ideas as well. And as 4th even the transportgoals might be interesting
16:23<neofutur>k now id need to learn this squirrel language
16:23<@planetmaker>neither does all what you want, most probably. But going by those 4 things, it's easy to extent them
16:23<neofutur>any good links for learning this squirrel language ?
16:24<frosch123>noone yet coded though an external highscore to put on some website
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16:24<frosch123>but nogo in principal also supports that
16:24<@Yexo>neofutur: and maybe NoAI tutorial on
16:26<neofutur>many thanks
16:32<neofutur>ok its near enough to C++ to seem possible
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16:45<FLHerne>drac_boy: Hi (yet again) :-)
16:46<drac_boy>hi tiles-bored english person :p
16:46<drac_boy>heh heh
16:46<frosch123>drac_boy: from the other side of the ocean?
16:47<frosch123>i had a question yesterday which i still do not know the answer: do americans normally speak about "cooking a cake" instead of "baking a cake"?
16:48<drac_boy>isn't someone from britan considered english?
16:48<drac_boy>or I must be mixing up my memory :-s
16:49<frosch123>a scotsman might kill you for that
16:49<__ln__>or a welshman, such as batman
16:51<drac_boy>heh ok fair enough
16:52<Rubidium>drac_boy: just like all French people put "Stop" on their "Stop" signs, except those not being French but speaking French near America; they put "Arrêt" on their signs
16:53<__ln__>"near America"....
16:53<Rubidium>likewise Americans, though speaking English are not using the same words/phrases
16:55<Rubidium>e.g. caboose vs guard/brake van
16:55<Rubidium>or cotton candy vs candy floss
16:56<frosch123>or "i could care less" vs "i coudn't care less" :p
16:57<Rubidium>or streetcar vs tram
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17:05<neofutur>[2012-08-08 23:05:09] dbg: [misc] String too long for destination buffer
17:05<neofutur>what does this mean ? a buggy client or some kind of attack against the server ?
17:05<__ln__>also some verbs have regular past tenses in the US, whereas the same verb is irregular in britain. can't remember an example.
17:07<neofutur>stopper is a french verb
17:07<neofutur>you can say "je stoppe" in french
17:07<neofutur>but yes, should be stoppe and not just stop
17:07<Rubidium>neofutur: I know that
17:08<Rubidium>still the French-tongued Canadians use Arrêt on their stop signs
17:09<frosch123>are you sure that the french-tongued placed those signs?
17:09<neofutur>grumph now I have a working citybuilding server its hard to decide to spend hours developping a nogo script ;(
17:09<frosch123>maybe it were rather the english ones, being worried about french driving skills
17:09<Mazur>No, __ln__, I reckon they have irregular conjugations, only the masses in the US never payed attention in school, so they've forgotten to use them.
17:10<frosch123>neofutur: sell it for 200k
17:10<neofutur>using nogo i ll be able to tell the server to rename a town, or to build a bank in town ?
17:10<frosch123>then you can pay someone to develop the nogo one
17:11<Rubidium>frosch123: I'm quite sure, the English tongued wanted to get rid of the French tongued
17:11<neofutur>eh luukland is selling more than just a server, and the opensource citybuilding script is not yet as good as the luukland one
17:11<__ln__>Mazur: *payed*?
17:13<frosch123>neofutur: if something is worth 200k, you must be able to gain 20k per year with it; or you really have to find someone stupid
17:13<__ln__>Mazur: anyway, that's the prescriptive approach to the phenomenon, but the descriptive is to acknowledge that native speakers actually use the language like that.
17:15<+glx>Rubidium: wiktionary says the word "stop" is used since 1792 and is from english
17:15<@planetmaker>neofutur: you miss one big advantage of the script approach: with scripts you can offer much more variety in the gameing experience than you ever can do with a patch. Like this very specific "citybuilder"
17:16<+glx>so as always french canadians use the original word
17:16<neofutur>frosch123: I agree, that should be sold 200eur, perhaps its possible to earn 100$ /month with it . . . not even sure :p
17:16<@planetmaker>the latter is severely limited. While the scripts allow you to keep your players at an edge. Or implement secretly some easter eggs
17:16<@planetmaker>well. you don't even need to do it secretly. Most people won't even notice when you do it in plain sight ;-)
17:18<neofutur>but still this question, having a nogo script allows me to drive the server, changing anything ? like renaming a town or adding a bank in a town ?
17:18<frosch123>i am not sure about naming a town
17:19<frosch123>you can place signs or show addtional text in the town gui
17:19<frosch123>but i don't think you can rename them
17:20<frosch123>anyway, night
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17:20<neofutur>renaming the town to the owner / player name seems needed
17:21<neofutur>having a system to "claim" a town too
17:21<+glx>there is a SetText() function
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17:23<Xaroth>neofutur: look at it this way, if the codebase changes in areas where your patch works, you'll have to fiddle for hours upon end to get it working again
17:23<Xaroth>that is not likely with NoGo
17:24<+glx>and it's always possible to add functions in the API if really needed
17:24<neofutur>Xaroth: agreed, its probably a better approach ;) but much more work too
17:24<neofutur>grep SetText gamescripts_nogo/*/* find nothing ;(
17:24<Xaroth>it's a matter of spending time now, and getting it right, or being forced to spend time later :)
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17:24<+glx>(via patches of course but easier to get them accepted than a big hack)
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17:25<drac_boy>sorry...some silly brownout in the area here :-s
17:26<neofutur>ah I needed this class reference function list ;)
17:26<neofutur>thanks glx
17:27<+glx> <-- that's the root :)
17:28<FLHerne>Why does ottdcoop bundles have 'ogfx-trains', 'fork-ogfx-trains' and 'fork-fork-opengfx-trains'? :P
17:28<FLHerne>And more to the point, which one should I care about? :P
17:28<+glx>because they like forks ?
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17:38<neofutur>strange there is getname and settext, if its the same property, shouldnt they be names getname and setname, or gettext and settext ?
17:42<+glx>neofutur: it's not the same property
17:44<neofutur>ok, so theres indeed no SetName
17:49<+glx>it should be possible to add it
17:50<+glx>as renaming a town is allowed on the server
17:50<neofutur>also, theres a function to protect a "owned" city ? so that only the owner can build near this town ?
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17:51<drac_boy>neofutur what do you consider 'near' btw?
17:52<neofutur>the area wouls probably be relative to the town sie
17:53<neofutur>like 10 tiles around city for a 500 city, 20 tiles for 2000 size . . .
17:53<drac_boy>oh ok just wanted be sure you was not going to block out players from being able to lay lines through a city-close-to-mountain flatland section .. or even a powerplant few tiles outside a city
17:53<drac_boy>and umm 20 is kinda a bit too wide, but 10 is ok
17:54<neofutur>yup 20 could be too big, depending on the map size
17:54<neofutur>this should probably be a setting of the game script
17:54<Wolf01>'night all
17:54<drac_boy>bye Wolf01
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17:55<drac_boy>well neofutur I don't have any complain but on the other hand I can't help, never really play ottd much (less now that theres almost no green dotted servers in list at times :-s )
17:56<neofutur>why do you have no green dot ? yo use an old version ?
17:56<drac_boy>I only can recall that the luk-something server (you did mention that too didn't you?) had some sort of script that blocked you from placing your hq in an already-taken town
17:56<drac_boy>neofutur nope...chrill
17:56<neofutur>more than just Hq on luukland, theeere is this type of protected area around owned towns
17:58<drac_boy>oh luukland mm
18:01*neofutur wonders what chrill means
18:02<drac_boy>the chrill patch version of ottd
18:04<neofutur>citybuilder patch or something else ?
18:04<drac_boy>something else
18:05*neofutur now have a working server for the citybuilder patch
18:05<neofutur>gotta add goods requirement for bigger towns and its done
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18:06<neofutur>since it will probably take me months to make it a nogo script, i ll still try to have good citybuilding servers waiting for it
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18:36<neofutur>any citybuilder player around to play with me and test the settings of my server ?
18:37<drac_boy>not me sorry, don't know who else could be not asleep on their keyboard now :p
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18:46<nicfer>hello again
18:48<drac_boy>hi nicfer
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18:50<nicfer>one question, can I create a map with the minimum town distance patch and load that into a patch pack?
18:51<nicfer>that patch pack doesn't have MTD
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---Logclosed Thu Aug 09 00:00:06 2012