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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-08-10

---Logopened Fri Aug 10 00:00:08 2012
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03:23<NGC3982>Bah, i had this dream where i was a Mars Rover..
03:24<Supercheese>and you were astonished to find a cat on Mars, but then accidentally killed it? :P
03:24<NGC3982>I was actually having some sort of Wall-e moment
03:26<Supercheese>(Curiosity... cats... :P)
03:27<Supercheese>night all
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03:29<Phazorx>NGC3982: were you getting service packs for 2 days in that dream?
03:31<Eddi|zuHause>'s the bandwidths to mars these days?
03:31<Phazorx>2Mbit peak after they upgrade MRO
03:32<Phazorx>direct link from rover is <80k
03:32<Phazorx>and not sure about uplink speeds
03:34<Eddi|zuHause>what'S MRO?
03:35<NGC3982>The difference in top and bottom speed in perihelion is 2 > 6Mb/s to the MRO
03:35<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: The MRO is the satellite that orbits mars to aid the communications with the rover.
03:35<NGC3982>It also has some nifty cameras and instruments.
03:36<NGC3982>For instance, it took the extremely elaborate step of photographing the parachute event when the rover landed
03:36<Eddi|zuHause>is the manned mars mission in 2018-ish still planned?
03:37<NGC3982>Note that the speed inwitch the camera takes this picture is locally relativt mach-2.
03:37<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: Not really.
03:37<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: It's "on paper". But that doesn't really say anything.
03:37<NGC3982>My guesses are that we wont have humans on mars until >2050.
03:37<Phazorx>i hope humans will last on earth till 2050
03:38<NGC3982>Phazorx: We survived the nuke graze of the seventies and eighties, so i think we will manage.
03:40<Eddi|zuHause>Phazorx: it's more likely that mankind will make a very slow decline over several hundred or thousand years
03:40<Eddi|zuHause>instead of a "sudden death"
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03:47<Ciprian>I've got a problem
03:48<Ciprian>I've installed the ECS NewGRFs, but there are no means to trasnport for tourists, glass, sand and others
03:48<NGC3982>Ciprian: Shoot!
03:48<Ciprian>What do I do?
03:49<Eddi|zuHause>Ciprian: you need a vehicle set that can transport them
03:49<Ciprian>I've already started the game, though
03:49<NGC3982>Ciprian: As Eddi said, and there is a separate NewGRF for that.
03:49<Eddi|zuHause>you have to start a new game
03:49<Ciprian>Ok, thanks
03:50<Ciprian>Do you know any vehicle set for the ECS?
03:51<NGC3982>Ciprian: Yes.
03:51<Eddi|zuHause>most of the ones on the content download support ECS
03:51<NGC3982>Ciprian: In the online-content, you should be abled to find "ECS & FIRS Original Vehicle Set".
03:52<NGC3982>Ciprian: That introduces no new vehicles, but makes the default one's accept the ECS or FIRS cargo.
03:52<Eddi|zuHause>note that you need one set for each vehicle type (trains, road, ship, aircraft)
03:59<Phazorx>are there ecs compatible aircrafts?
04:00<Eddi|zuHause>why wouldn't there be?
04:01<Phazorx>just havent seen any
04:01<Eddi|zuHause>and it's "one aircraft" - "many aircraft"
04:01<Eddi|zuHause>always singular
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04:18<@Terkhen>good morning
04:33<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: Seriosly, that's your answer?
04:35<Eddi|zuHause>what kind of answer do you want?
04:38<NGC3982>Phazorx: You will have to excuse the blunt behaviour. Yes, there are a lot of refits available for aircraft vehicles. The 'ECS & FIRS Vehicle Set' (See online-content) makes all standard OpenTTD vehicles refitable to ECS or FIRS cargo. Although, note that all vehicles does not accept all ECS or FIRS cargo.
04:39<NGC3982>Phazorx: I also think that NewGRF's like AV8 and similar automaticly handles ECS or FIRS refit settings.
04:39<NGC3982>But i suggest you try that one out before you take that as truth. :P
04:39<Eddi|zuHause>it's not like Phazorx found this game yesterday...
04:39<NGC3982>Who cares. Don't be mean.
04:40<Eddi|zuHause>not sure where i was "mean"...
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04:45<Wolf01>hello o/
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04:49<NGC3982>Wolf01: \o
04:50<Phazorx>and yes, dont be mean!
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04:50<Phazorx>NGC3982: yeah, i know about ecs adapter, specifically about a variety of them for DBset, lv4, newships etc
04:50<Phazorx>so abcence of ecs adapter is a sign of no support to me
04:52<FLHerne>Phazorx: Might just be a sign that the developer doesn't play with ECS or care much about it? :P
04:52<FLHerne>andythenorth hasn't made CHIPS work properly with OpenGFX yet for the same reason, that doesn't make either unsupported :P
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05:08-!-GBerten2936 is now known as lugo
05:13<lugo>oohhh! vaulter updated his patchpack!
05:14*lugo bluntly requests a win32-binary :)
05:15<lugo>IS, daylength, improved breakdowns.. this looks.....promising :)
05:24<Sacro>lugo: link me
05:30<NGC3982>Phazorx: :)
05:31<Eddi|zuHause>Phazorx: "ECS Adapter" is only needed for really old grfs
05:31<__ln__>11:39 < NGC3982> Who cares. Don't be mean. <-- a lot of people care, and Eddi was not being mean.
05:31<Eddi|zuHause>Phazorx: meaning most newer GRFs have it out-of-the-box
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06:48<drac_boy>how doing?
06:49<TrueBrain>lugo: ask it to be compiled by the CF, always up-to-date binaries :P
06:50<TrueBrain>(he just has to start using some kind of VCS; that will be the hard part :D)
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07:47<peter1138>So, uh, is Windows Update not working for anyone else?
07:47<drac_boy>don't know sorry :)
07:48<peter1138>Do you use Windows?
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07:52<drush>yep, not using windows
07:53<drush>however, windows update may loop in a circumstance where you localized your OS with vistalizator and you're trying to get a service pack for the new language
07:53<peter1138>Vistalizator? What?
07:53<drush>it's a software piece that localizes vista and 7
07:54<peter1138>Ah, not it's not that. This is a fresh install.
07:54<drac_boy>only one windows for occassional cd games but otherwise thats pretty much it (and yeah it doesn't have much of a net)
07:55<__ln__>drac_boy: my 7 was already localized after installation.
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09:07<kais58>when building on windows should I use the microsoft compiler or gcc?
09:08<drush>kais58 I honestly wouldn't know which one would be better and how could I decide which one is
09:09<drush>primarily because openttd doesn't have performance benchmarks :(
09:09*drac_boy would had used gcc but thats me
09:11<TrueBrain>what a silly answer is that, lolz
09:13<TrueBrain>kais58: on windows, if you use gcc, you need a glue library (mingw, cygwin, ..). After that, it doesn't really matter .. MSVC can't make binaries for win9x, so it really depends :D
09:18<drush>TrueBrain what is the purpose of win9x?
09:20<TrueBrain>what is the purpose of life?
09:20<drush>I cannot answer that question,
09:21<drush>however, I do have reasons to leave 9x alone
09:22<TrueBrain>good for you
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09:24*NGC3982 has this computer at work that still runs Windows 98.
09:26*drac_boy still uses 98se for the lone windows box due to cost anyhow
09:28<TrueBrain>rsync: command not found
09:28<TrueBrain>lolz; my default installs are too slim :D
09:28*drush abandoned microsoft's ship for linux
09:28<NGC3982>drac_boy: For the low cost of what? Windows98? ;D
09:29<drac_boy>NGC3982 low cost of software budgetting
09:29*NGC3982 enjoys Windows 7 a great deal.
09:29<NGC3982>drac_boy: Ah, i see.
09:29<drac_boy>TrueBrain heh do you still have 'ls' directory command? :)
09:30<TrueBrain>I am not sure if 'rsync' and 'ls' are on the same level there, but meh :P
09:34<drac_boy>NGC3982 after all why spend another $600 on hardware+software just to do the same tasks at more or less same speed. but of course that may be a little prejuiced :p
09:34<TrueBrain>drac_boy: 1 word: Raspberry PI :P
09:35<drush>those are 2 words
09:35<TrueBrain>Achievement unlocked: mister obvious
09:36<drush>but yeah,
09:36<drac_boy>TrueBrain problem is the lack of video aside to other peripheral i/o
09:36<drac_boy>heh drush
09:36<drush>that is a budget-friendly computer
09:36<TrueBrain>drac_boy: I think atm it is more an issue of getting one :P
09:37<kais58>TrueBrain: not really, I have one and quite a few people I know do too
09:37<drush>drac_boy are you sure?
09:37<TrueBrain>kais58: and this is evidence it is easy to get how? :)
09:37<kais58>infact, taht's what I'm running irssi on right now :)
09:37<drush>one of my friends who owns those asked me to recommend a DE for it, so I assume he had a way of outputing video
09:37<TrueBrain>kais58: if I own a spaceship, does that mean it is easy to get for everyone? :P
09:38<kais58>TrueBrain: Shush you
09:38<TrueBrain>kais58: you started :P
09:38<kais58>drush: they have HDMI and composite video out
09:38<drac_boy>drush..yeah composite isn't really good for more than 320x240 which pretty much removes the plausibility of computer desktops
09:38<drac_boy>so with no video its kinda out of the question
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09:39<drush>what about workstations?
09:39<TrueBrain>DVI to VGA convertor :D (shitty stuff btw, don't do it :P)
09:39<drac_boy>TrueBrain that only works for normal dvi ports which isn't present
09:39<TrueBrain>drac_boy: no, you have active convertors
09:40<TrueBrain>like HDMI to VGA too
09:40<NGC3982>drac_boy: True. Using what you have without wasting resources is a basis of success.
09:40<TrueBrain>they just ocnvert digital to analog signal
09:40<TrueBrain>it is not a real issue to do that .. it just requires another device with power
09:40<TrueBrain>which sucks
09:40<drush>TrueBrain those require additional power to do the conversion
09:40<drush>because DVI-A to VGA is just rewiring
09:41<kais58>or you just use a HDMI/DVI monitor...
09:41<TrueBrain>kais58: I need to get one .... a 19" non-WD ...
09:41<TrueBrain>any idea how hard those are to get these days?
09:41<TrueBrain>all freaking monitors are WD :(
09:41<drac_boy>NGC3982 not perfect anatomy but sometimes I think its like cars.. why scrap your rustfree 2001 car just because its more than one year old and isn't giving you any issues yet?
09:41<kais58>oh, why not?
09:41<TrueBrain>in LEDs it seems they are not produced or what-ever
09:41<drush>I heard 16:9 is unhealthy for eyes
09:41<TrueBrain>in LCD it is rather hard to find someone with a stock :P
09:42<NGC3982>drac_boy: Exactly. Well, that is; If you own the car for practisicm (english?).
09:42<drac_boy>NGC3982 I forgot the spelling but I know what you're saying
09:42<TrueBrain>drac_boy: if it aint broken, don't fix it ;)
09:42<drush>and I heard rts gamers hate WD for ruining concentration
09:42<TrueBrain>the slogon of many many many many companies :D
09:42<drac_boy>drush I've rather liked 4:3 or some 16:10 for the reason of that I deal with text more than video so the vertical space is needed
09:42<NGC3982>TrueBrain: I needed that quote today.
09:43<TrueBrain>drac_boy: 2 columns! :P
09:43<TrueBrain>(now I am just silly)
09:43<NGC3982>TrueBrain: I thought to myself "Hey, let's clean up the office cable mess" and with greatness and grace killed the internet connection for 66 people.
09:43<drac_boy>I hate 1366x768 period .... its much less space than 1240x1024 anyway
09:43<TrueBrain>NGC3982: been there, done that :P
09:43<TrueBrain>got the tshirt
09:43<drac_boy>heh NGC3982 ops? :-s
09:44<NGC3982>Well, yeah. It happends. Note that this is a company where im in charge of all the technical stuff, and im not a technician.
09:44<TrueBrain>its one of the reason I am allowed in first when we are wiring in a DC or company
09:44<kais58>drac_boy: that's what my laptop screen is, it's terribad
09:44<TrueBrain>as my way of putting down wires is ...... clean and ordered :P
09:44<drac_boy>kais58 yeah
09:44<drush>720p is just copypaste silverscreen
09:47<TrueBrain>hmm, so --delete-excluded doesn't do what I expected ... that is annoying
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10:05<peter1138>mass market :-(
10:05<drac_boy>at least grfs themself more or less don't even care for the os you're on which is good :)
10:05<peter1138>There are some benefits, like laptops don't cost £800 for something basic these days.
10:06<TrueBrain>rsync -av -L --delete --delte-excluded --ignore-errors --include-from=../test.mirror --exclude\* . ../remote-test
10:06<TrueBrain>and it works :P
10:08<drac_boy>anyway going for now as usual
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10:08<TrueBrain>(minus all the typos :P)
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11:36<andythenorth>@seen pikka
11:36<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 11 weeks, 6 days, 9 hours, 1 minute, and 26 seconds ago: <Pikka> hello Alberth
11:46<TrueBrain>andythenorth: have you tried the @summon command?
11:46<andythenorth>doesn't work for Australia
11:46<andythenorth>@nommus might
11:46<TrueBrain>they should patch that
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13:28*andythenorth thought it was quiet
13:28<andythenorth>it's very boring
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13:37<FLHerne>It is quite quiet
13:37<FLHerne>andythenorth: How do you get your pixel art to look right? :P
13:38<andythenorth>and lighting
13:38<andythenorth>and contrast
13:38<andythenorth>and don't use too many shades in one place
13:38<andythenorth>is all
13:38<FLHerne>I've been trying to draw your asphalt tiles on slopes. I think I've got the lighting right(ish) now, but I can't get them looking 'smooth' enough :P
13:39<FLHerne>They're sort of speckled, which doesn't look right :-(
13:41<andythenorth>how many shades are you using?
13:43-!-pugi [] has quit []
13:44<FLHerne>About 3 or so together. Four or five in total when there's a big difference in lighting.
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: translators * r24463 /trunk/src/lang/korean.txt:
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: korean - 1 changes by telk5093
13:47<andythenorth>FLHerne: use no more than 3
13:47<andythenorth>a paste would help :P
13:47<andythenorth>ask for forum comments
13:51<FLHerne>Ah well. I'll think about it while camping :D
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14:02*andythenorth ponders playing the game
14:02<TrueBrain>don't be silly
14:03<andythenorth>I always regret it when I do
14:03<andythenorth>it's just so pointless
14:03<andythenorth>not that there should be a point to games
14:04<andythenorth>but meh
14:04<andythenorth>I could start converting FIRS to python
14:04<andythenorth>that would be...interesting
14:05<andythenorth>TrueBrain: I've been working with pyramid app framework
14:05<andythenorth>they claim it's unopinionated...they seem to really mean it
14:06<andythenorth>I know you are sticking with Django ;)
14:07<TrueBrain>wtf is unopinionated?
14:07<TrueBrain>that it has no opinion?
14:07<TrueBrain>sounds horrible :P
14:07-!-Alberth [~hat3@2001:980:272e:1:21a:92ff:fe55:fc8d] has joined #openttd
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14:07<@Alberth>hi hi
14:08<andythenorth>TrueBrain: you go on their irc channel and ask "is it ok to do xyz" and they're like "yeah, whatever works"
14:08<andythenorth>most python web frameworks are...more opinionated :P
14:08<TrueBrain>like I said, sounds horrible :)
14:08<andythenorth>more like "blah is the one and only correct method"
14:08<TrueBrain>sounds without direction :P
14:08<andythenorth>it's good
14:08<TrueBrain>you should have at least a standard, or a goal, or a prefered way
14:09<andythenorth>that's nice
14:09<TrueBrain>whatever works comes to bite you in the ass
14:09<TrueBrain>(hacks, ...)
14:09<andythenorth>but from 10 years of opinionated web frameworks, we've learnt that 'blah is the only correct way' changes every 2 years :P
14:09<andythenorth>and 'blah' is often a bit insane and requires huge frameworks to just get a page online :P
14:09<TrueBrain>I would never use "correct way", but "prefered way" is at least mandatory
14:09<@Alberth>trying to win a editor^H^H^H^H^H^Hframework war?
14:10<TrueBrain>it is like accepting all OpenTTD patches I have seen in the world when we received them
14:10<TrueBrain>it would make OpenTTD source code TOTALLY unreadable, and VERY unstable :P
14:10<TrueBrain>Alberth: war? I think you misunderstand this conversation by miles :D
14:10<TrueBrain>andythenorth is telling an unopinionated framework is nice to work with, and I have a hard time grasping that concept ;)
14:11<@Alberth>that's an option :)
14:11<andythenorth>it's fun
14:11<andythenorth>you just write code and it appears in your browser
14:11<@Alberth>TrueBrain: yeah, that sounds weird indeed :)
14:11<andythenorth>code that works without having to do loads of bureacracy :)
14:11*TrueBrain is writing his own PHP framework ... many asked me why, and not took an existing ...
14:12<TrueBrain>the answer is easy: if I write A, I want A to happen
14:12<TrueBrain>not B, not C .. A
14:12<TrueBrain>in result, my 'modules' are often 10 lines, instead of 100 :P
14:12<andythenorth>good luck :D
14:12<TrueBrain>well, it is already done, so no luck required anymore :P
14:12<TrueBrain>tnx anyway :D
14:12<TrueBrain>PHP is still an horrible language btw :P
14:12<andythenorth>that's what you needed the luck for ;)
14:13<@Alberth>yeah, I'd not use PHP
14:13<TrueBrain>you cannot send $this to an anonymous function .. so ... $t = $this, and you send $t
14:13<TrueBrain>exactly the same effect :P
14:13<TrueBrain>its like .. seriously ....
14:13<TrueBrain>static variables have NOTHING to do with static .. it is merely: these variables are copied on creation, that is all :P
14:13<@Alberth>it took me less than 2 days to find such messy cases
14:14<TrueBrain>you can runtime change static variables
14:14<TrueBrain>per class ...
14:14<TrueBrain>euh, hmm, that is not clear ...
14:14<TrueBrain>class A extends class B, having a static variable C
14:14<@Alberth>that's fine, PHP isn't either :)
14:14<TrueBrain>A::C == B::C .. but .. that link is not set .. you can break it .. runtie ...
14:14<@Alberth>joy :)
14:15<TrueBrain>so yeah, you are right, lets not talk about PHP :D
14:15*andythenorth considers openttd some more
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14:15<RichyB>Did I just miss a really good PHP rant?
14:16<TrueBrain>why do I always feel weird when I realise people read an IRC channel via a logger, and rush to the channel when they think they can join in ...
14:16<TrueBrain>I might read the situation wrong ofc, but it happens more and more
14:16<andythenorth>TrueBrain: I told him
14:17<TrueBrain>andythenorth: pfew :P
14:17<andythenorth>we have some small dislikes of PHP
14:17<TrueBrain>everyone has .. and who hasn't, hasn't used it
14:17<RichyB>TrueBrain: oh, please excuse me, I was just being a dick. :)
14:17<TrueBrain>its like Java ...
14:17<andythenorth>I haven't used PHP, but I've hired people who can only use PHP :P
14:17<TrueBrain>RichyB: troll was more the word I would like to use :P
14:17<andythenorth>"Only PHP" is not a good sign
14:17<andythenorth>nor is "only perl"
14:18<TrueBrain>Perl is not a language
14:18<TrueBrain>so who ever writes down at: Languages: Perl
14:18<TrueBrain>should be hit with a stick :P
14:18<TrueBrain>several times!
14:18<RichyB>TrueBrain: trolling is an art form, I daren't sully its name by associating it with my own crap efforts. ;P
14:18<andythenorth>there are probably 17 ways to hit them with a perl stick
14:18<andythenorth>and depending who wrote it, it may make no sense to anyone ele
14:18<andythenorth>else *
14:19<andythenorth>this cheese has been on the floor
14:19*andythenorth eats it anyway
14:19<RichyB>Most of the Perl programmers I've spoken with claim that Perl might not be a good programming language, but it does *contain*... several good programming languages. ;)
14:20<TrueBrain>RichyB: I am not even debating if it is a good language or not
14:20<TrueBrain>I am telling it is not a language at all :D
14:20<RichyB>Eh. Where's the standard place these days to buy a copy of TTD online?
14:20<andythenorth>RichyB: maybe I should point you to our list of unfinished ottd patches :P
14:20<andythenorth>then you can spend your weekend with c++ :P
14:20<TrueBrain>I once had such a good URL explaining why Perl is not a language .. where do I have it ...
14:20<RichyB>It's not on Steam.
14:21<RichyB>Sorry, serious question. I have no idea where my Transport Tycoon disk went and I'm too impatient to wait for eBay or anything to ship me a new physical one.
14:21<TrueBrain>TTD is not officially sold anymore
14:22<TrueBrain>anyone who claims they do, are ripoffs (and in fact illegal)
14:22<RichyB>So there does not exist any website online where I can put money in and get a non-warez copy of TTD? :(
14:22<TrueBrain>"Kennedy's Lemma: If you can parse Perl, you can solve the Halting Problem. "
14:22<andythenorth>play with opengfx ;)
14:22<TrueBrain>you don't need TTD
14:22<TrueBrain>download OpenTTD, download opengfx, done :)
14:22<RichyB>Okay. Thank you.
14:23<TrueBrain>stop talking about OpenTTD
14:23<TrueBrain>it is boring
14:24-!-roadt [~roadt@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:24<andythenorth>TrueBrain: have you solved your mirrors problem?
14:24<andythenorth>that's kind of not OpenTTD
14:24<TrueBrain>working on it .. slowly
14:24<TrueBrain>rsync is not the best in documetation
14:24<TrueBrain>"unless one of the transfer-statistic escapes is requested"
14:24<TrueBrain>no fucking clue what they mean
14:25<TrueBrain>no other references are made about it
14:25<andythenorth>ask for your money back :)
14:25<@Alberth>no #rsync ? :(
14:26<TrueBrain>I am trrying to get a list of files that are mirror'd at the end of rsync
14:26<TrueBrain>instead of making a second call
14:26<TrueBrain>which feels silly
14:27<@Alberth>the list of files at the local disk, or is that too simplistic?
14:28<TrueBrain>it needs to be the remote
14:28<TrueBrain>as I want to know which files ended up there
14:30<Sacro>Erugh, why does openttd use a new font
14:32<FLHerne>Does anyone know what the minimum useful specs are for the Android port?
14:32<Sacro>Ah, blitter
14:32<Sacro>FLHerne: you'll need Android
14:32<drush>FLHerne hardware-wise?
14:33<FLHerne>I'm never quite sure how ARM perfomance compares to anything else :P
14:33<drush>FLHerne it compares pretty good with x86, especially armv6
14:33<drush>I have OpenTTD installed on my N95 (armv6+fpu) and it works smooth
14:34<FLHerne>drush: Thanks. So a 1GHz one should be playable to some extent?
14:34<drush>FLHerne OF COURSE
14:34<drush>N95 is a 300MHz ARM
14:34<FLHerne>Ah, great :P
14:35<drush>btw, FLHerne, how do you build for Android?
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14:35<@Alberth>cross-compiling :)
14:35<TrueBrain>FLHerne: I think that the CPU wouldn't you biggest issue, performance wise
14:35<TrueBrain>it of course depends how many trains you are going to build
14:35<TrueBrain>and how many NewGRFs you are using
14:35<FLHerne>Dunno. Haven't tried that. Been using PPC for my weird-processor fix :P
14:35<drush>but any problems to aboid?
14:35<TrueBrain>(I can kill a 3 GHz with enough NewGRFs :P)
14:35<drush>because I am making a port for PS3 GameOS and it's not going very smooth
14:36<@Alberth>luclily the max number of newgrfs is quite finite :)
14:36-!-cypher [] has quit []
14:36<FLHerne>TrueBrain: The 400MB RAM might be more of a limit, actually :P
14:36<TrueBrain>it most likely will, depending on your resolution
14:36<FLHerne>I know it'll be playable though :-)
14:36<TrueBrain>and if you go 32bpp :P
14:36<TrueBrain>if you look over how OpenTTD runs on a Raspberry PI
14:36<TrueBrain>you see a lot of issues in certain video modes
14:36<FLHerne>32bpp is probably one to avoid...
14:36<TrueBrain>to me it reads like SDL is fucking something up, but I cannot be sure till I have one myself :P
14:37<TrueBrain>no (or very limited) NewGRFs, 8bpp, a 100 train limit or something, and you should be more than fine on any CPU :P
14:37<RichyB>TTD is still completely single-threaded, right?
14:37<TrueBrain>in regards to performance, an ARM is a so called RISC CPU .. things go a bit slower ;)
14:38<TrueBrain>RichyB: wrong ;)
14:38<RichyB>TrueBrain: cool! When did that change and how? :D
14:38-!-Frankr [] has joined #openttd
14:38<TrueBrain>RichyB: rendering (on most platforms) and saving your game is threaded
14:38<TrueBrain>terrain generation has been threaded for years now
14:38<TrueBrain>I wrote that ... well .. years ago
14:38<TrueBrain>AIs run in threads (but no parallel)
14:38<drush>TrueBrain is terrain generation benchmarkable?
14:39-!-Frankr [] has quit []
14:39<TrueBrain>what is that kind of question?
14:39<TrueBrain>is NN benchmarkable? Answer, in all cases: YES
14:39<RichyB>TrueBrain: so if you have multiple AIs, each AI has its own thread, but there's no parallelism within each of the AIs?
14:39<TrueBrain>RichyB: they run one by one
14:39<andythenorth>only so many instructions per tick?
14:39<TrueBrain>well, I believe we removed the threads by now
14:39<TrueBrain>as they run in a VM :P
14:40<Rubidium>TrueBrain: by now? Understatement of the week!
14:40<RichyB>If I want to fix bugs, I should use trunk OpenTTD and stable OpenGFX, right?
14:40<TrueBrain>Rubidium: VMs can be seen as threads too, tbh
14:40<TrueBrain>makes it easier to think about ;)
14:40<Rubidium>drush: you can benchmark everything. Whether it's reproducable and/or representative is something else
14:41<TrueBrain>RichyB: but I think you were more wondering it map access is threaded, and that is a big NO
14:41<Rubidium>in case with map generation: having it depend on 'randomness' basically means it's not reproducable
14:41<TrueBrain>RichyB: "multithreaded" is such a hype, that many forget it doesn't mean anything really
14:42<RichyB>TrueBrain: everything. I was expecting that OTTD would have the same behaviour as the old DOS versions: game tick, rendering and everything all in a single loop.
14:42<TrueBrain>we left that years ago
14:42<TrueBrain>but we don't have a lot of parallel code
14:42<RichyB>...? To me, "multithreaded" means "I called pthread_create(3) at least once and intend to call pthread_join(3) the same number of times."
14:42<TrueBrain>RichyB: but what does that mean for an application?
14:43<TrueBrain>with that, I can make ANY application multithreaded
14:43<Rubidium>well, in short: one thread for audio playback, one for music, one for autosave, one for pushing graphics into the graphics card (if supported), one for DNS resolution, and one for the rest
14:43<TrueBrain>just make a bootstrap which does a pthread_create, run the process, and do a pthread_join
14:43<TrueBrain>doesn't make it threaded ;)
14:43<RichyB>It meanst that the application definitely, and I mean *definitely* suffers from context-switching overhead. Not much else. ;)
14:43<TrueBrain>well, if that is your definition, then you are absolutely right :)
14:44<andythenorth>RichyB: if you want to fix bugs use trunk openttd and stable opengfx
14:44<TrueBrain>although if it 'suffers' from it, you might want to remove the threading ;)
14:44<andythenorth>patches go on fs or forums
14:44<Rubidium>context switching isn't the main problem for not mass multithreading OpenTTD. Game state consistency is, i.e. locking/synchronisation and you need a load of that
14:45<TrueBrain>RichyB: but even DOS has threading, in the form of Terminated Stay Resident applications ;)
14:45<Rubidium>not to speak about multiplayer where every decision needs to be ran in the same order
14:46<TrueBrain>Rubidium: you can still parallel read-only actions, like for example pathfinding ;)
14:46<TrueBrain>too bad we use caches ...
14:46<RichyB>Okay, so the question isn't "does this use multiple threads" as "can I make this program go faster by adding more cores instead of faster cores?" :P
14:46<TrueBrain>in that case, no
14:46<TrueBrain>adding more cores does absolutely nothing for OpenTTD :P
14:46<andythenorth>there are a lot of forum threads about why
14:46<Rubidium>TrueBrain: except that there is an interdependency between trains etc
14:46<TrueBrain>(given you already have 4+ :P)
14:47<andythenorth>some threads more ranty than others :P
14:47<TrueBrain>Rubidium: much smaller conflict zone; nevertheless, caching will always win
14:47<drush>does anyone know what consequence would it have, if I forcibly removed -rdynamic flag from OTTD makefiles?
14:48<andythenorth>RichyB: interesting questions in the code include "wtf is terragenesis actually doing?", because apparently the code their contains some lies
14:48<andythenorth>depends how excited you are by perlin noise :P
14:48<RichyB>andythenorth: well yeah, I wasn't really expecting the answer to the latter question to be "yes"; you can write games where it is, but you have to be careful about data dependencies in order to avoid needing much synchronisation.
14:48<TrueBrain>because OpenTTD in its core has a single map structure
14:48<TrueBrain>multithreading there is very unlikely to gain performance
14:49<TrueBrain>years ago I made some drafts to split a map in 4 segments, each running in its own instance (with the idea of an MMO OpenTTD :P)
14:49<andythenorth>RichyB: OS X bugs? :)
14:49<TrueBrain>where only the borders synchronize
14:49<TrueBrain>its doable, but A LOT of work :(
14:49<andythenorth>your're probably near an OS X box :P
14:49<RichyB>andythenorth: I have no Mac on which to test.
14:50<andythenorth>I bet you can see one right now :P
14:50<TrueBrain>that would allow OpenTTD to use more cores :P But meh ...
14:50<andythenorth>MMO OpenTTD
14:50<@Alberth>2 segments would be a big gain already imho
14:50<andythenorth>might make it interesting again
14:50<TrueBrain>I have some pretty detailed plans for it andythenorth :P
14:51<TrueBrain>the problem is that the client has to be rewritten basically, in how it works
14:51<@Alberth>MMO dune is easier probably :)
14:51<TrueBrain>which ... amde me ... go ....... booooooo
14:51<TrueBrain>Alberth: have plans for that too :D But gameplay is VERY hard
14:51<RichyB>TrueBrain: ignoring OpenTTD for the moment because we know that that's not happening; data parallelism in a videogame looks like, for example, and RTS where you can update every unit's state in parallel because you do no data modifications in-place. Rather, you have two complete copies of the giant array of units, and you copy-and-modify from one into the other every frame.
14:51<TrueBrain>mostly: what happens if you log off :P
14:51<TrueBrain>RichyB: I am well aware how threading works, thank you very much ;)
14:52<RichyB>Good. Point is, you have to plan for that well in advance. :P
14:52<andythenorth>Chris Sawyer didn't :P
14:52<andythenorth>maybe I should learn how GS works
14:53<andythenorth>and write a 1-hour gamplay challenge
14:53<andythenorth>same Squirrel as the AI library
14:53<TrueBrain>Alberth: honestly, it was the whole idea of OpenDUNE, to transform it into an MMO :P It failed kinda hard ;)
14:53<andythenorth>truebrain has an API definition for GS somewhere
14:54<TrueBrain>I am guessing?
14:54<TrueBrain>a free cookie for me
14:54<TrueBrain>which site is not following OPTA?
14:54<andythenorth>I'll mail the cookie
14:54<TrueBrain>any dutch gov site ... so ...
14:54<TrueBrain>lets visit .... , yippie, a cookie!
14:55<andythenorth>cookie law?
14:55<TrueBrain>(for the non-dutchies: we have a new law which obligates site owners to opt-in any non-functional cookies
14:55<andythenorth>don't please mention cookie law
14:55<andythenorth>it's too painful, too expensive
14:55<TrueBrain>our gov told last week that they don't have to obey that law, as they are not commercially)
14:55<andythenorth>our gov decided unilaterally not to bother :P
14:55<andythenorth>except for the bits that do
14:55<TrueBrain>it is by far the worst law in months :P
14:56<TrueBrain>ACTA was worse, but this is close following :P
14:56<andythenorth>it's more fun when your customers are gov
14:56<drush>do I know
14:56<TrueBrain>andythenorth: tell me about it :P
14:56<drush>I heard that in Poland, if a new law is unconstitutional,
14:56<andythenorth>TrueBrain: really, I could :P
14:56<andythenorth>months of work for me
14:57<drush>then it will be in effect for 6 months and for that time, it has to be redrafted to suit to constitution
14:57<TrueBrain>andythenorth: I meant to say: I know, I am in the same ship :P
14:57<andythenorth>then 1 day before the deadline, the ICO (enforcement agency) changed their interpretation of the law
14:57<andythenorth>to allow implied consent
14:57<andythenorth>much wasted time incurred
14:57<andythenorth>probably good for consumers on balance
14:57<andythenorth>they love all the popup cookie notifications
14:57<andythenorth>it gives them something to read
14:57<TrueBrain>OPTA, the organization giving the penalties for these kinds of laws, said they would also send one to gov sites ... I cannot wait for the results :P
14:57<drush>which means pretty much that any unconstitutional law can work for 6 months with a constitution that disproves it
14:58<TrueBrain>the popups are HORRIBLE ..... it annoys the user .....
14:58<RichyB>On the one hand it's a total shit, OTOH just *removing* things that depend on cookies >90% of the time makes sites faster.
14:58<andythenorth>and stops giving personal data to questionable people
14:58<TrueBrain>RichyB: I do agree that the amount of cookies is insane
14:58<TrueBrain>if I visit one site to order something, the next 4 days I see ads of that company on ALL the other sites
14:58<TrueBrain>it is fucking annoying :P
14:58<andythenorth>I like that
14:58<andythenorth>targeted ads are better
14:59<TrueBrain>but if this is really the solution for that ....
14:59<RichyB>It's not even the cookies themselves, it's the things that people do with them.
14:59<Dr_Tan>I love hearing about adds on the internet
14:59<TrueBrain>btw, ever removed ads in Facebook?
14:59<Dr_Tan>I almost never see them
14:59<Dr_Tan>adblock lol
14:59<TrueBrain>it is funny as fuck, as they ask why you removed them
14:59<TrueBrain>I had such a good hour removing many of them with silly reasons
14:59<RichyB>Take Google Analytics off everything and then suddenly websites load ~50ms faster, which you feel when it's *every* pageload.
14:59<TrueBrain>I laughed my ass off :P
15:00<TrueBrain>RichyB: fun fact, the dutch gov said: it is okay for us to use NedStat (like Google Ana), as we only use it to see how we can improve our website
15:00<TrueBrain>not realising NedStat uses all that information to sell ads
15:00<TrueBrain>which is horrible if you think about it: when you visit your local gov store on the web
15:00<TrueBrain>some 3rd party (USA company!) knows about it
15:00<TrueBrain>that can never be the intend of any gov site
15:01<TrueBrain>but, as with every country, nobody up there has any real IT knowledge
15:01<TrueBrain>so they don't care
15:01<TrueBrain>who cares if you compromise the personal visiting behavoir of your whole country, you know how to improve your website!
15:01<drush>of course TrueBrain
15:01<RichyB>Why does the "configure" script not support --prefix? :(
15:01<TrueBrain>it should
15:01<drush>because using javascript and javascript only is a huge improvement
15:02<TrueBrain>RichyB: how you define 'not support'?
15:02<drush>TrueBrain that's exactly the issue I had
15:02<RichyB>TrueBrain: ./configure --prefix=$HOME/builds/openttd # threw an error message at me.
15:02<TrueBrain> --prefix-dir=dir specifies the prefix for all installed
15:02<TrueBrain> files [/usr/local]
15:02<drush>TrueBrain I did --prefix-dir=$PS3DEV/portlibs/ppu
15:03<TrueBrain>why the hell would it be prefix-dir? Lol
15:03<drush>and I still get stuff like "-I/usr/local/SDL" in my makefiles
15:03<TrueBrain>I guess it was done to be the same for all entries
15:04<drush>well, anyhow, it doesn't work as intended
15:04<TrueBrain>drush: that something doesn't work how you think it should work, doesn't make it wrong; prefix-dir does work as intended
15:04<drush>then what is intended TrueBrain?
15:05<TrueBrain>I suggest you try google for that
15:05<drush>I thought that setting a prefix dir makes the compiler look for libs and include files in $PREFIX/lib and $PREFIX/include respectively
15:06<TrueBrain>RichyB: that 'issue' dates back to 2006, so I guess nobody every thought about it :)
15:06<drush>and not completely ignore a prefix directory as I have found out
15:06<TrueBrain>drush: you thought wrong
15:06<TrueBrain>the worst part, my copy/paste of our --help tells you why you are wrong
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15:07<TrueBrain>RichyB: it also tells you how often we, devs, use it :P
15:08<drush>now I get it
15:08<TrueBrain>RichyB: also mind we don't have a build-dir
15:08<drush>--prefix-dir is for installing the compiled output
15:09<TrueBrain>(as in, it is the directory you run ./configure from :P)
15:09<drush>or else I'm wrong again
15:10<@Alberth>how did mmo dune fail, on what to do after leaving?
15:10<TrueBrain>the problem is, wha thappens when you log off from it
15:11<TrueBrain>I could wipe your base every time because I am in another TZ
15:11<@Alberth>the simplest would be to stop everything until everybody is online again
15:11<andythenorth>FLHerne / others: any more feedback on FISH? I have to stick more ships in, trying to figure out the set balance
15:11<TrueBrain>everyone? Or the parties involved?
15:11<drush>TrueBrain that is not good
15:11<@Alberth>or at least save the point :)
15:12<TrueBrain>we reviewed many solutions, and it is not really trivial .. never found a clean solution :(
15:12<TrueBrain>either you can never attack eachother
15:12<TrueBrain>or .... it becomes turn-based?
15:12<RichyB>Some of the C&C games had massive multiplayer.
15:12<@Alberth>I can imagine itis not trivial
15:12<drush>if I would run OTTD's configure from $PS3DEV/portlibs/ppu it would scatter config files all over the place
15:12<RichyB>It was effectively turn-based.
15:12<TrueBrain>RichyB: defined 'massive' ;)
15:12<drush>the place from which it ran
15:12<RichyB>World map, countries.
15:12<RichyB>Running 24/7.
15:13<TrueBrain>well, maybe I should define what I would consider an MMO RTS
15:13<andythenorth>turn based OTTD
15:13<TrueBrain>everyone on one map
15:13<andythenorth>one click per turn
15:13<TrueBrain>not, how some solve it, by allowing you to start matches in a shared world
15:13<TrueBrain>that is cheating :P
15:13<RichyB>You'd log in at any random time of day, click a contested territory. Game starts when at least one player from both factions joins in, and whoever wins that ordinary, finite-sized C&C game takes the territory for their side.
15:13<@Alberth>you'd expect that people playing together would be able to make an appointment to be at a computer at the same time
15:13<FLHerne>andythenorth: I haven't run a ship-centric game since I started fiddling with FISH 2ish, sorry :P
15:13<TrueBrain>RichyB: yeah, that is exactly what I don't mean ;) :D
15:14<FLHerne>I tried to, but the autorefit broke and I gave up :-(
15:14<FLHerne>(On everything, not just shps)
15:14<TrueBrain>Alberth: I played a lot of EVE, which has similar problems, and it shows that is not really humanlly possible; but it is in the direction that a solution should be ..
15:14<FLHerne>Stupid patched versions... :P
15:14<RichyB>Well. It's like instanced dungeons, isn't it? It *is* clean, it's just not really a very good MMO.
15:14<TrueBrain>Alberth: as that gives the issue: really large groups kill EVERYONE :P
15:14<TrueBrain>RichyB: yeah, I don't consider those things MMOs ;)
15:14<TrueBrain>it is a valid concept
15:15<@Alberth>TrueBrain: big money buys everything too
15:15<TrueBrain>but not what I would consider MMO .. it is more ... a lounge you go into to find people to play against ;)
15:15<FLHerne>andythenorth: Started autorefitting everything to totally random cargos :-(
15:15<TrueBrain>RichyB: a good example of that is PlanetSide; it is a lovely game, no bad words about the game
15:15<TrueBrain>it is very close to an MMO, but .. they are just seperate servers
15:15<TrueBrain>with big maps
15:15<TrueBrain>single-shard, I guess I should add to MMO :P
15:15<TrueBrain>ssMMO? :P
15:16<TrueBrain>Alberth: very true; but those things are solvable :)
15:16<RichyB>TrueBrain: ssnoMMO :)
15:16<TrueBrain>RichyB: as if you allow those things, it indeed becomes easy :)
15:16<RichyB>EVE is Single-Shard, No-instancing, Massively Multiplayer Online.
15:16<TrueBrain>what I would love to build, is that you start building your base, which you can build on and on for weeks at end
15:16<TrueBrain>till someone comes along and wipes you of the face of the earth
15:17<RichyB>Also "SSNOMMO" almost sounds good as an acronym.
15:17<RichyB>Perhaps you could swing it like DayZ?
15:17*andythenorth is tempted to learn how to play DF
15:17<RichyB>HUGE map, totally infeasible huge map, and you can protect your bases from attack while you're away by hoping that no one finds them.
15:18<TrueBrain>and what id you do want to fight?
15:18<TrueBrain>id = if
15:18<andythenorth>kind of like how we play "not getting wiped out by aggressive alien species"?
15:18<TrueBrain>andythenorth: we take that gamble every time we wake up :P
15:18<RichyB>That's a separate problem! :)
15:18<@Alberth>TrueBrain: hmm, what if you allow the same number of units as the person you attack?
15:19<TrueBrain>Alberth: instances?
15:19<RichyB>You can find ways around that, like putting down resource nodes that are really sparse, so people are forced to meet at them.
15:19<TrueBrain>I mean, how do you mean: same number of units?
15:19<andythenorth>or broadcast lots radio signals
15:19<andythenorth>so they find you :P
15:19<andythenorth>like we do
15:19<@Alberth>I attack you, you have 5 tanks, I have 100, but I can get only 5 near you
15:20<andythenorth>send out probes with maps on, saying "we are here, this is our tech level"
15:20<TrueBrain>and if I am offline you can't get close, or?
15:20<@Alberth>any problem with that>
15:20<andythenorth>could you have an ever-expanding horizon whilst not there?
15:20<TrueBrain> < -several drafts .. might be boring to read, but meh :)
15:20<RichyB>TrueBrain: so say there's players at a density of one every 20 square units, it takes an hour to explore a square unit in enough detail to find a base, and there's one resource node every 200 square units - and you can detect resource nodes from 400 units away. You'll get conflicts at the resource nodes and you'll wipe peoples' bases by following their harvesters.
15:20<TrueBrain>Alberth: not really, just trying to get a feeling for what you mean ;)
15:21<TrueBrain>I worked mostly on how to make a truely infinite map
15:21<TrueBrain>which really never ever ends
15:21<RichyB>Okay, actually relevant question: just built r24463, it asked me to download openGFX and I did
15:21<RichyB>I now get the message "the currently used base graphics set is missing a number of sprites. Please update the base graphisc set".
15:22<@Alberth>I was solving the "big army sweeping over your few troops" problem :)
15:22<andythenorth>relevant questions are off-topic :P
15:22<@Alberth>RichyB: that's ok
15:22<RichyB>Annnnd I downloaded opengfx 0.4.4 using the in-game thingummy where the first prompt comes up.
15:22<TrueBrain>RichyB: for HEAD you often need a non-stable OpenGFX to have all the stuff
15:22<RichyB>Good, thank you.
15:22<TrueBrain>for obvious reasons, an unstable release needs an unstable OpenGFX :P
15:23<@Alberth>RichyB: there are a few sprites missing , but nothing serious
15:23<TrueBrain>Alberth: yeah, that is where I got stuck after that :)
15:23<TrueBrain>I was just pointing out what those drafts are about :P
15:23<@Alberth>I clicked at it too, but did not read it yet :p
15:23<TrueBrain>I opened the 'old' folders too, as I assume none of you will steal the idea and make milions, without giving me a few pennies :P
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15:24<@Alberth>only the peopl e reading the logs will :)
15:24<TrueBrain>you might like how unit design and skill progression works ;)
15:24<RichyB>"Replaces passenger production in oil rigs by eels... Eels are transportable by hovercraft."
15:25<TrueBrain>but I guess that might work Alberth ..
15:25<NGC3982>Does anyone know if the FIRS Lime Quarry is supposed to be animated?
15:25<TrueBrain>(the idea of battling, that is)
15:25<TrueBrain>not sure how to keep that realistic, but that might be workable
15:25<RichyB>andythenorth should.
15:26<andythenorth>NGC3982: didn't you asks that already?
15:26<TrueBrain>as, how are units kept out? A shield? Some energy balance?
15:26<TrueBrain>hmm, that might just work :)
15:26<TrueBrain>that in a given area there can only be an equal amount of energy
15:26<andythenorth>NGC3982: which is the Lime Quarry?
15:26<TrueBrain>so if there are 5 infantree, you cannot come with a huge tank
15:26<TrueBrain>hmm, interesting ......
15:26<TrueBrain>tnx Alberth ;)
15:28<@Alberth>one problem might be that you kill one of my tanks, and I may bring in a new one
15:28<TrueBrain>make the energy balance disapate over time
15:28<TrueBrain>for example, the destroyed tank stays there, destroyed
15:28<TrueBrain>and over the next .. week
15:28<TrueBrain>it gets removed
15:28<TrueBrain>piece by piece
15:30<@Alberth>another problem, you log off to rescue your units :p
15:30<TrueBrain>many games have that as solution already, works rather well
15:30<TrueBrain>if you are agressed, you can logoff, but your stuff remains on the field
15:30<TrueBrain>for the next, say, 5 minutes
15:31<TrueBrain>EVE does that wonderful; if I shoot at you, and you log off, you stay where you are, and I just kill you
15:31<@Alberth>ok, that's enough to slaughter your tanks :)
15:31<TrueBrain>'agression timer' ;)
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15:36<drac_boy>any of you know of any swiss-english service online? I only know of one popular one for deutsch-english
15:37<Chrill>service for what?
15:37<drac_boy>chrill..language? :)
15:38<Chrill>try Google Translate, it is good
15:38<Chrill>but its hardly OpenTTD :P
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15:47<@Alberth>Chrill: we hardly speak of openttd here, as everybody already knows about it :p
15:47*andythenorth complains about openttd here
15:47<Chrill>you all speak of stuff way over my head :p
15:48<andythenorth>but nobody pays attention to andythenorth
15:48<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: where's your buy menu patch?
15:48<andythenorth>I could test it now
15:49<drac_boy>chrill I do have one thing that is ottd....the 'chrill patch' :)
15:52*andythenorth wonders how to make rivers 2 tiles wide between sea level and first height change
15:52<Chrill>thats chill patch
15:52<Chrill>not chrill :(
15:53<andythenorth>so the original graphics had rivers in the 'choose temperate' icon for years
15:53<andythenorth>but rivers didn't make it into game until last year :D
15:54<andythenorth>also tropic is missing dead cows
15:54<@Alberth>temperate is missing living ones :)
15:54<andythenorth>how big can new objects be?
15:55<drac_boy>oh sorry chrill...kinda mixed up due to similar spelling
15:55<andythenorth>Alberth: I have cows :P
15:55<TrueBrain>Alberth: I hate you, now I want to write a server to test the idea :P
15:55<andythenorth>can I do a 9x9 tile new object?
15:55<@Alberth>TrueBrain: sorry
15:55<andythenorth>thinking that tropic needs more mountains
15:55<andythenorth>bigger mountains
15:55<andythenorth>that can't be routed over
15:55<TrueBrain>Alberth: don't be :P
15:55<TrueBrain>well, I first need to fix the mirror stuff, so .. I will have to wait :)
15:56<drac_boy>andythenorth there was little in africa or australia that didn't mind going straight over the mountain
15:57<drush>I'm trying to make configure script look for libs and includes in another directory
15:57<drush>we've already established that I can't do it with prefix
15:57<drush>so I tried setting LDFLAGS
15:58<drush>that still doesn't make the deal
15:58*drush feels stupid
16:00<@Alberth>what has a loader to do with libs and include paths?
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16:02<drac_boy>still finding that a little confusing.. chrill or chill ... meh!
16:03*andythenorth ponders
16:03<andythenorth>is 800x500 optimum resolution for ottd?
16:04<drac_boy>andythenorth I would say yeah
16:04<@Alberth>depends on your screen size? (some dpi would be more useful perhaps)
16:05<andythenorth>1280x800 native
16:05<drac_boy>1280x1024 and 1440x900 here atm
16:05<andythenorth>this panel is fuzzy at 800x500, the fonts are blurred
16:05<andythenorth>but the pixels look ok otherwise
16:05<drac_boy>andythenorth don't use fullscreen mode? :p
16:05<@Alberth>buy an analogue monitor
16:05<andythenorth>drac_boy I want the game to be lower rez
16:05<Chrill>drac_boy: blame him, not me. I've carried this nickname on the forum since 2006 :P
16:06<drac_boy>chrill heh heh ooook :)
16:06<andythenorth>lower rez = easier to use the gui
16:06<drac_boy>chrill seriously tho I really like some of the features in the chill patch that its a bit sad that only one server once in a while actually runs it :/ oh well :)
16:07<andythenorth>someone needs to make a decent industry set
16:07<andythenorth>I'm bored of PBI
16:07<andythenorth>I'm bored of default industries
16:07<drac_boy>andythenorth get on FIRS or ECS already
16:07<andythenorth>FIRS sucks
16:07<andythenorth>ECS is too complicated
16:07<@Alberth>ECS sucks too :)
16:07<drac_boy>andythenorth just don't download all of it..simple?
16:08<drac_boy>I've never ever had the chemical or construction grfs at all anyway
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16:09<andythenorth>how can FIRS suck less?
16:09<andythenorth>maybe I can make it simpler
16:09<drac_boy>by more trains supporting it? otherwise I don't see anything needed to do with it
16:09<andythenorth>it's boring
16:09<drac_boy>then you're clearly not looking at the scenary :)
16:10<Chrill>hey andythenorth, you did FISH right?
16:10<Chrill>well then
16:10<Chrill>I love that there is such a well-developed set for such an underestimated type of transport
16:10<Chrill>one of the very best sets overall ingame!
16:10<andythenorth>np :)
16:10<andythenorth>tried FISH 2?
16:11*drac_boy actually uses newship.grf myself...
16:11<Chrill>unless Fish 2 is on bananas, no
16:11<Chrill>if it is, then yes :P
16:12<RichyB>I forgot how much fun this game is.
16:12<RichyB>andythenorth: I blame you.
16:12<andythenorth>that's your weekend gone :P
16:12<andythenorth>coming in Monday? :P
16:12<andythenorth>it's more fun when you patch it :P
16:14<andythenorth>maybe I should adjust FIRS to have one obvious money maker
16:14<andythenorth>currently there's no 'start here'
16:14<RichyB>No obvious money-maker? Did you remove coal or something? :P
16:15<andythenorth>there are more chains, more evenly balanced
16:15<andythenorth>it imposes decision paralysis due to abundance of choice :P
16:15<andythenorth>I should implement economies as a parameter option, each of which is weighted towards one chain
16:16<andythenorth>but the CPP used to build the set is too complicated
16:16<drac_boy>as long as you split it off from the normal FIRS or use a parameter mode :)
16:16<andythenorth>and I haven't got around to doing a python / chameleon conversion yet :P
16:16<@Alberth>drac_boy: FIRS has economies planned for ages already :)
16:17<andythenorth>but nobody capable of coding them :)
16:17<drac_boy>alberth point was the 'one obvious' and 'abundance' which I kinda disagreed with
16:17<andythenorth>where do you start then drac_boy ?
16:18<drac_boy>andythenorth depends on the randomized map but pretty much a good chance its a 3+ stations mixed freight service whether theres any coach on tail or not
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16:19<@Alberth>wood or coal or so
16:19<andythenorth>I think one answer to enjoying my game is "Stop using UKRS 2"
16:19<andythenorth>hmm there's a FIRS compatible canset release, maybe I get that
16:19<@Alberth>I didn't even start :)
16:19<andythenorth>it's a shame
16:19<andythenorth>pikka's sets are so well balanced
16:19<drac_boy> that shows you an usa version of a common light diesel mixed train
16:19<drac_boy>its a bit hard to see but that indeed is one lone coach on rear
16:19<andythenorth>GE 70 ton
16:20<drac_boy>europe had their own similar versions too
16:20<drac_boy>not counting that RhB still more or less has 'mixed trains' in american sense ... the attachment of varying freights to passenger trains .. even the new Allegro as well
16:21<andythenorth>canrail 1.1
16:21*andythenorth has a play
16:22<@Alberth>arctic, obviously :p
16:22<andythenorth>needs a truck set :P
16:22<andythenorth>mine sucks
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16:23<@Alberth>you know the weak points too wel :p
16:23<andythenorth>it's rather obviously not done :D
16:24<drac_boy>older photo but just in case anyone was wondering about the RhB remark
16:24<drac_boy>mostly lumber but probably some parcel goods too
16:24<andythenorth>I am about to be annoyed by the industry generation algorithm
16:25<drac_boy>andythenorth I always did thought the whole gamecreate randomizer in both patch and ottd needed a good overhaul but I don't know how much of that is actually doneable :/
16:25<drac_boy>especially when it likes to dump a sawmill only few tiles away from the forest .. even although it rarely ever does that with the original industries stragnely
16:26<andythenorth>FIRS shouldn't be doing it
16:26<andythenorth>except when I tell it to
16:27<andythenorth>it has code to enforce gaps between certain industry types
16:33<andythenorth>FIRS is so stupid
16:33<andythenorth>where do I take milk before 1892?
16:33<andythenorth>there's no fricking destination
16:34<drac_boy>just like real milk ... straight to town
16:34<andythenorth>has anyone even play tested this grf?
16:34<drac_boy>ironically railroad tycoon follows the same behaviour too
16:34<andythenorth>so I just don't transport milk before 1892?
16:34<andythenorth>and this is good because...?
16:35<drac_boy>you do transpot it...just to towns instead
16:35<andythenorth>no accepting industry
16:35*andythenorth was all set to play a game with milk
16:35<andythenorth>in 1870
16:35<andythenorth>meh screw that
16:36<andythenorth>I never get much past map gen these days
16:36<andythenorth>the game is too broken
16:36<andythenorth>I think FIRS really needs a rethink
16:36<FLHerne>andythenorth: 'Markets' should accept fruit+veg, milk, fish etc, with a low acceptance cap
16:36<andythenorth>FIRS is so screwed
16:36<drac_boy>how come I have no problem at all after countless maps?
16:37<drac_boy>(then again its in patch with custom trains almost all the times tho...might be ottd has strange different behaviour)
16:37<FLHerne>andythenorth: The general idea is sound, IMO - played loads of long games with it in different time periods
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16:37<FLHerne>It needs some tweaking of specific industries though :P
16:37<andythenorth>the general idea of 'make an industry grf' is sound
16:37<drac_boy>FLHerne nice to see its not just me then. maybe would be fun if two of us play together? :)
16:37<andythenorth>FIRS is broken
16:37<andythenorth>I should just rm it
16:37<FLHerne>Oh, and cargodist for supplies really helps
16:37<andythenorth>no wonder is has < 10% of the bananas downloads that ECS has
16:38<andythenorth>ECS is way more popular
16:38*FLHerne prefers FIRS to ECS, by miles
16:38<drac_boy>FLHerne hmm I've never ever play cargodist at all...did the chill patch ever have it in or not?
16:38<FLHerne>ECS is older and more mature :P
16:38<FLHerne>drac_boy: Yes, but that's years behind trunk at the moment
16:39<Chrill>andythenorth: im liiiking this, especially the concept of speed differences canal vs. river
16:39<FLHerne>I'm using my own patchblob at the moment, but it's insanely unstable :P
16:39<andythenorth>Chrill: good :) Thank frosch for the patch that enabled that
16:40<andythenorth>Chrill: some graphics missing, you'll find several generations of ships look the same
16:40<andythenorth>and some old ships using modern graphics
16:40<andythenorth>you get auto-refit support now too
16:40<drac_boy>FLHerne heh ok
16:40<Chrill>oh I was going to ask about auto-refit
16:41*andythenorth drove away all his FIRS collaborators with moaning :P
16:41<Chrill>also yes some ships look virtually the same, I cant figure out which ones are old or new :P
16:41<RichyB>Levelled a town by accident, now I can't even build a bus stop in order to make them stop hating me.
16:41<RichyB>Where's the "bribe" button gone anyway? ;D
16:41<andythenorth>build trees
16:42<@Alberth>find another town to level :p
16:42<andythenorth>there's a build-tree-bulldoze-tree-build-tree exploit iirc
16:43*andythenorth patches dairies
16:43<andythenorth>screw 1892
16:43<andythenorth>fun for translators :P
16:43<drac_boy>andythenorth you prefer people to not be able to drink processed milk at all?
16:43<andythenorth>I'm going to normalise everything to 1870
16:43<andythenorth>this varying introduction dates thing is one massive fail
16:43<drush>oh dear
16:44<drush>are you guys talking about far away past?
16:44<drac_boy>andythenorth its not, otherwise other games wouldn't had used it with no problem
16:44<drush>I remember that one time I set the starting time to 1410
16:44<andythenorth>other games != this game
16:44<andythenorth>this game has problems
16:44<drac_boy>andythenorth doesn't matter..its still the same industries
16:44<andythenorth>ever seen an aluminium plant get built?
16:44<andythenorth>or a fertiliser plant?
16:44<RichyB>andythenorth: it's not really an exploit if it costs money though, surely? :)
16:45<andythenorth>RichyB: there's a minor exploit somewhere in the difference between penalty for bulldoze, and reward for tree planting
16:45<drush>andythenorth are you telling that this game while it allows to go to the past before TTD, should portray the world as it was then?
16:45<andythenorth>drush: I dunno. What's the question?
16:46<drush>andythenorth: you said you went to 1892, back then aluminium wasn't being processed
16:46<andythenorth>who cares
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16:46<drush>so would that mean that you want OTTD to not have alluminium by the time it entered industry
16:47<drush>because that sorta makes sense, monorails didn't enter OTTD's world until y2k ingame
16:47<drac_boy>drush basically whats the point of setting it to pre-1950 then if nothing is going to be right
16:47<andythenorth>I don't follow these arguments :)
16:47<andythenorth>what's the point / question?
16:47<drush>ah nevermind, I can't make it more clear
16:48<andythenorth>FIRS tries to provide accurate intro dates for industry types (adjusted in some cases for gameplay)
16:48<andythenorth>it doesn't work
16:48<andythenorth>it's broken
16:48<drac_boy>andythenorth if its broken then set everything to 1950 and call it "frictious industries" then
16:48<drac_boy>otherwise leave the years alone as they actually were
16:48<andythenorth>or just introduce everything in 1870
16:48<andythenorth>because I like to start games in 1870
16:48<drac_boy>still same thing
16:49<andythenorth>ok so I start my game in 1870
16:49<andythenorth>FIRS doesn't introduce dairies until 1892
16:49<andythenorth>but none will get built
16:49<andythenorth>so I have no dairies in my game
16:50<andythenorth>and I know this in advance, because I've played enough FIRS games to realise it
16:50<andythenorth>so I see all the farms, and realise my map is pointless
16:50<andythenorth>and I turn off the game
16:50<andythenorth>FIRS is dumb and broken
16:50<andythenorth>it's a big bag of disappointing fail
16:50<andythenorth>with nice graphics
16:51<andythenorth>that's why 10x as many people play ECS
16:51<andythenorth>it's ugly as sin, but they like the gameplay
16:51<drac_boy>you clearly can't think then
16:51<andythenorth>like quite a few newgrf things, the "industry can't be built before certain date" is a misfeature
16:52<andythenorth>the game doesn't really work with it
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16:56<FLHerne>andythenorth: You can't mess up the intro dates :-( . You justed fixed that for FISH
16:57<andythenorth>vehicles are completely different
16:57<andythenorth>industry type introduction dates are broken
16:57<andythenorth>they don't work
16:57<FLHerne>andythenorth: No. I don't want to look at plastics plants or whatever in 1870
16:57<andythenorth>but you don't get to look at one in 1850 either
16:57<drac_boy>agreed FLHerne
16:57<FLHerne>If I want some later, I'll have enough money to fund them
16:58<andythenorth>funding is broken
16:58<FLHerne>That then fixes the AAARGH WHAT DO I SPEND ALL THIS MONEY ON problem :P
16:58<andythenorth>the introduction dates also make game balance impossible
16:58<FLHerne>andythenorth: How so?
16:58<FLHerne>(For both)
16:58<andythenorth>because the game tries to build a fixed number of industries per map
16:58<andythenorth>so depending on what types are available, the mix can be very different
16:59<andythenorth>so balancing them reasonably is impossible
16:59<andythenorth>pre 1900 you can have an insane number of farms
16:59<andythenorth>start later and you hardly get any farms on some maps
16:59<andythenorth>it's a fricking mess
16:59<andythenorth>I am so bored of trying to balance all this crap
16:59<drac_boy>FLHerne the funny thing is even if I start in 1920 with custom trains&industries (earliest I can atm) I sometimes never really have much money 40 year later .. and some trains still carrying very old wagons with almost no value
17:00<drac_boy>guess its all in the gameplay styles
17:00<andythenorth>TTD doesn't have this problem
17:00<andythenorth>TTD starts in 1950, problem solved
17:00<drac_boy>who said so?
17:00<FLHerne>andythenorth: The varying industry distributions are good :-)
17:00<FLHerne>Adds interest :P
17:01<andythenorth>not when trying to release the set
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17:02*Alberth agrees with andy
17:02*FLHerne disagrees :P
17:02<andythenorth>FLHerne: take over maintaining FIRS then
17:02<andythenorth>I'm sick of it tbh
17:03<andythenorth>between the code base that I don't understand, and the problems I can't solve
17:03<andythenorth>just fork the repo
17:03<FLHerne>Not just yet :P Perhaps when I can get my simple objectgrf release-able it might be imaginable...
17:03<andythenorth>FIRS is too big and too broken
17:04<andythenorth>and too complicated
17:04<andythenorth>and has a codebase that nobody has time to work on
17:04<FLHerne>andythenorth: It's a nice set, but needs more complexity :P
17:04<FLHerne>Complexity (for the user) is good :-)
17:04<FLHerne>As I said, makes it more fun
17:05<andythenorth>the only redeeming feature of FIRS is that it has nice graphics
17:05*drac_boy would be too busy with my own cargo grf addendum to help FLHerne either way :-s
17:05<andythenorth>somebody should take the FIRS graphics and make a decent set
17:05<FLHerne>If people want 'simple', they can use the default ones, or OGFX, or part of ECS, or TaI (if it's ever done) or whatever :P
17:05<FLHerne>andythenorth: I considered refiddling some of your graphics and making a FIRS addon :P
17:06<FLHerne>Not till I get the objects done, anyway :P
17:06<andythenorth>what would it do?
17:06<NGC3982>andythenorth: No, that was the Iron Ore Mine.
17:08<andythenorth>what was the iron ore mine?
17:09<NGC3982>andythenorth: Last time, you reminded me of the full detail-option that made my FIRS Iron Ore Mines to not animate.
17:09<andythenorth>what is the Lime Mine?
17:09<FLHerne>andythenorth: Add a market, guest house (small hotel) , power station. Replace 'recyclables' with 'waste', can be burnt (with coal) in incinerators.
17:10<andythenorth>try it
17:10<andythenorth>most of those have been removed from FIRS
17:10<FLHerne>Add Food Processing Plant again, takes metal, fish and livestock. Other stuff, I forgot :P
17:11<andythenorth>NGC3982: that's a very big industry :o
17:11<FLHerne>andythenorth: In that case, why did you remove them?
17:11<andythenorth>market - same function as the general store, but spams the minimap list
17:11<FLHerne>Also, waste should go to landfills of course :P
17:11<andythenorth>guest house - not tried
17:11<NGC3982>andythenorth: :D
17:11<andythenorth>power station - pointless
17:12<FLHerne>andythenorth: I moaned when you multiplied the cost of hotels by 30-odd times, remember? :P
17:12<andythenorth>waste -> incinerators; might work. The old waste chain was insanely boring
17:12<FLHerne>Incinerator produces chemicals :P
17:12<drac_boy>FLHerne funny thing is I thought about town outputs other than mail ... and am still tempting to perhaps try figure out a no-sensivity low-value recycle cargo type
17:12<FLHerne>Possibly :P
17:13<drac_boy>might not do it tho..and beside trains comes first then the matching industry later so we'll have to see
17:13<andythenorth>the old waste chain tried to collect from a lot of town sources
17:13<andythenorth>collect from a dump, go to an incinerator could work
17:13<drac_boy>the reason its only recycle alone is because well lets just say its sorta my 'a perfect yet reasonable world' kind of thinking .. there'll be almost no trash at all
17:13<andythenorth>NGC3982: you want me to animate that industry?
17:14<NGC3982>andythenorth: No, of course not.
17:14<NGC3982>andythenorth: I was just wondering if there already was animation that i missed out on.
17:14<FLHerne>Basically, add another acceptor for what's now recyclables
17:15<andythenorth>NGC3982: I don't know :)
17:15<FLHerne>I don't like cargos which can only go to one industry :P
17:15<andythenorth>FLHerne: you see the big stacks on the recycling plant?
17:15<andythenorth>or did I remove them?
17:16<andythenorth>no they're still there
17:16<FLHerne>andythenorth: Not sure. Haven't tried that so much. I tend to finish games at the present, so not much time to use that chain.
17:17<andythenorth>I should introduce it in 1870
17:17<andythenorth>then you'd see it :P
17:17<FLHerne>Might be nice if you moved that forward a decade. Not 1870 though...
17:17<andythenorth>anyway it's drawn as a recycling plant / incinerator
17:17*drac_boy still has to think what to actually do for 2010-2050 yet
17:17<drac_boy>but one thing at a time tho so guess we'll eventually see
17:18<FLHerne>andythenorth: Split them then. More industry types?
17:18<FLHerne>And why didn't you make the town industries town industries
17:18<FLHerne>Sorry, add a ? there :P
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17:18<FLHerne>Actually, that still makes no sense :o
17:18<andythenorth>not really no :P
17:19*FLHerne thinks through the phrasing more carefully :P
17:20<andythenorth>think faster :P
17:20*andythenorth is going to sleep any moment ;)
17:20<FLHerne>Why didn't you make the grocers/hardwares/recycling etc town buildings, rather than industries? It would be neater :P
17:20<andythenorth>because it doesn't work very well
17:20<andythenorth>it conflicts with house sets
17:20<andythenorth>it means that you can't fund them
17:21<andythenorth>it means that they don't show up in the industry chain viewer
17:21<andythenorth>nor on the minimap
17:21<FLHerne>There are always many more than required anyway :P
17:21<FLHerne>And as you pointed out, that map's cluttered already :P
17:21<drac_boy>FLHerne theres one single town building in my list so far ... input mail:1/4 food:1/1 goods:1/1 .. output mail:1/4, recycle:1/4
17:21<andythenorth>it means your station acceptance would flap
17:21<andythenorth>as towns rebuild houses
17:21<drac_boy>no passenger yeah .. no need to with being in middle of a town anyway
17:22<FLHerne>Dunno about the set conflict - what happens then?
17:22<andythenorth>who knows
17:22<andythenorth>nobody wanted to find out
17:22<FLHerne>andythenorth: Acceptance not a problem. Cargodist and truck-route distribution :P
17:23<drac_boy>FLHerne how often do you play with cargodist btw?
17:23<andythenorth>how is disappearing destinations not a problem?
17:23<FLHerne>Same as mail, ish
17:23<andythenorth>co-op style players hate disappearing destinations
17:23<andythenorth>it ruins the route optimisation
17:23<FLHerne>drac_boy: Always. Depends how often I can get time to play OTTD :P
17:23<andythenorth>FIRS is optimised for co-op style play
17:23<drac_boy>FLHerne heh well I never ever tried it much before but I'm wondering...can you like drop off some cargo at one place and rest at second place .. or the mechanisms is still too weak for that?
17:24<FLHerne>andythenorth: Circular truck routes, calling at many stations in a town. Cargo likely to be accepted somewhere :P
17:24<andythenorth>doesn't work for co-op play
17:24<FLHerne>drac_boy: You can. It's great for supplies :P
17:24<andythenorth>i.e. massive route building
17:24<FLHerne>andythenorth: No, you just add distribution networks at the end of your massive route
17:25<FLHerne>I know, I'm a massive-route style player :P
17:25<drac_boy>FLHerne hmm it might make my gameplay style more interesting when the grain is not all unloaded at the first interimidate station :)
17:25<andythenorth>I don't play co-op style, so I don't know :P
17:25<andythenorth>anyway, feel free to take FIRS graphics and start a new set
17:25<andythenorth>it's GPL
17:25<FLHerne>Big train arrives. Transfers into a million trucks/ships/trams/whatever. Gets delivered :P
17:25<drac_boy>FLHerne I'm going to guess you always run long solid single-cargo trains only or am I wrong?
17:26<FLHerne>drac_boy: Autorefit fixes that one.
17:26<drac_boy>FLHerne but is it a yes or no? :)
17:26<FLHerne>Now I can run long solid lots-of-similar-cargos trains :-)
17:27<andythenorth>poll: preferred start date?
17:27<FLHerne>i.e. I now have an Iron Ore/Sand/Stone/Coal/Clay run :P
17:27<drac_boy>FLHerne guess thats somewhat a no then ... second question: multiply parallel tracks with heavy amount of signals or not?
17:27<andythenorth>ach nvm
17:27<FLHerne>andythenorth: Either 1880, 1920 or 1970, depending on available time.
17:27<drac_boy>andythenorth 1920 as always for me but mm :)
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17:27<FLHerne>andythenorth: Preferred finish date: 2012 :P
17:28<FLHerne>Normally a 1920 start
17:28<drac_boy>so FLHerne how about my question above :p
17:28*andythenorth -> bed
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17:28<FLHerne>drac_boy: Breakdowns off, so normally I get by with a quad-track line. Fast pax on the inners, freight on the outers. 4-is signal spacing
17:29<FLHerne>That's the mains, I like single-track branches to ~60 person towns too :-)
17:29<FLHerne>Again, Cargodist makes those much more practical
17:29<drac_boy>FLHerne heh well ... the two of us could play a chill+cargodist map but I'm a bit doubtful about us being able to exactly share traffic due to very different track laying methods :)
17:30<FLHerne>drac_boy: How do yours work? :-)
17:30<FLHerne>I've got a lot of mine on my screenshot thread, actually :P
17:31<drac_boy>FLHerne well to put it one way...take a paper map (or aka the overhead map dialog ingame I guess) .. and look close ... you'll see that theres just like copious thin doodles all over the place .. even over water or through the mountain
17:32<drac_boy>I never exactly really have anything that can be defined as "high quality mainline" at times in some games after all
17:32<FLHerne>drac_boy: Interesting. I normally like to go over/round hills, shortest possible bridges :P
17:33<drac_boy>FLHerne well when the industries are up there or the land is rolling a lot that any idea of "low-grade route" would mean lots of blastings .... guess what? you'll find my line literally going straight up then ... don't have enough traffic to afford the tnt crews :)
17:34<drac_boy>get the idea?
17:34<FLHerne>I literally built a line straight up the side of a mountain once, I get the idea :P
17:36<FLHerne>This is the bottom:
17:38<FLHerne>Perhaps this should go to that private channel though? :P
17:38<drac_boy>FLHerne mind you one time it was like the railroad's there south over there .. and theres like a string of mixed mountains/hills impending anything to the north edge of map ... so after a few years ... and having to finally bicker a tunnel through one section .. I was able to run a few freights north finally ...
17:38<drac_boy>thing was .. it was an isolated electrified section too .. would had been too difficult to run through steam trains
17:40<drac_boy>if it was real-life .. it would had been something like the 2-6-2 steam locomotive cutting off at the junction station for two heavy crocodiles to back onto the train and soon they're whining loudly doing 30km/h up the 11% grade
17:40<drac_boy>you following FLHerne? :)
17:41<FLHerne>Yeah. Would probably have stuck with steam though - see private chat :P
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17:55<andythenorth>@seen frosch123
17:55<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: frosch123 was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 2 hours, 51 minutes, and 43 seconds ago: <frosch123> footnote 1
17:55<andythenorth>@seen Eddi|zuHause
17:55<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: Eddi|zuHause was last seen in #openttd 12 hours, 24 minutes, and 29 seconds ago: <Eddi|zuHause> Phazorx: meaning most newer GRFs have it out-of-the-box
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18:31<Wolf01>'night all
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---Logclosed Sat Aug 11 00:00:09 2012