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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-08-11

---Logopened Sat Aug 11 00:00:10 2012
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01:07<MMavipc>Is BaNaNaS down for anyone else?
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01:16<V453000>yes
01:24<andythenorth>no
01:24<andythenorth>ENoContext :P
01:26<V453000>[07:07:53] Is BaNaNaS down for anyone else?
01:26<V453000>context :P
01:26<andythenorth>website's up for me, no css though
01:27<V453000>I get http://bananas.openttd.org/en/notAvailableYet when trying to download things
01:27*andythenorth wonder's if anyone understands the industry generation code in industry_cmd.cpp
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01:27<andythenorth>V453000: probably content-ish stuff is coming from mirrors that are down / being synced / being upgraded
01:27<V453000>ok only the newest upload breaks which I did yesterday evening when it was already down :)
01:28*andythenorth is guessing btw
01:28<V453000>the older things look worky
01:28<andythenorth>could tell TB, but he probably knows already :P
01:28<V453000>I guess :p
01:28<andythenorth>hmm
01:29<andythenorth>"wonder's" is wrong
01:29<andythenorth>too early for ' rules :P
01:29<V453000>I also dont write ' in don't
01:30<andythenorth>abolish the ' character, it's dumb :P
01:30<V453000>we can agree on that :>
01:30<andythenorth>TrueBrain: ¿ I'm guessing you know some stuff is down, e.g. Bad Gateway for http://media.openttd.org
01:32<MMavipc>media.openttd.org is giving a 502
01:32<V453000>dont complain better than if it was giving 666
01:33<MMavipc>that's not even possible
01:33<andythenorth>apparently 666 is over-rated as a number
01:33<MMavipc>http error codes are 1xx-5xx
01:34<andythenorth>666 may have been a hebrew encoding of "Nero" rather than an actual number signifying the actual end of the world :P
01:34<V453000>I have no clue of the origin tbh :D
01:35<andythenorth>seems that the Israelites may have had a system similar to ASCII character encoding, for information they couldn't write down in plain sight
01:37<V453000>mhm :)
01:40<V453000>btw my purchase menu looks like a parrot now :D https://dl.dropbox.com/u/20419525/purchasemenu_enhancement.png thoughts?
01:48<V453000>andythenorth: ? :) it is too colourful isnt it
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01:57<andythenorth>V453000: it's colourful ;)
01:58<andythenorth>what are the column of numbers ?
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02:03<V453000>colour = class, number = chronological number of the train in that class
02:03<V453000>so in the beginning you have only 1 1 1, and then it upgrades to 9 .. :)
02:12<andythenorth>how do you make that column appear?
02:13<V453000>it is in the purchase menu sprites
02:15<V453000>https://dl.dropbox.com/u/20419525/PurchaseMenu.png
02:15<V453000>like that
02:15<V453000>I also had to put the text in there, as otherwise it would cause misalignment of the main black text, as 1 is shorter than 2 for example :)
02:16<andythenorth>ho ho
02:16<andythenorth>cargo sprites too :)
02:16<V453000>the wagon icons?
02:17<V453000>those are a bit odd so far :)
02:17<V453000>idk if I shouldnt rename passengers to Golems looking at their icon :P
02:21<andythenorth>biab
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02:53*andythenorth makes a list of what's stupid about FIRS
02:53<andythenorth>- supplies
02:53<andythenorth>- industry clustering is broken
02:53<andythenorth>- open dates are broken
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02:54<andythenorth>- FIRS is boring
02:54<Wolf01>morning o/
02:55<Eddi|zuHause>basically i disagree about all 4 points
02:55<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I'm proposing removing these
02:55<andythenorth>rather fixing the broken
02:55<andythenorth>industry clustering used to be scaled by map size
02:56<andythenorth>that was dropped during nml conversion
02:56<Eddi|zuHause>why?
02:56<andythenorth>accident
02:57<andythenorth>anecdotally, porting to a new language is a common way for software to lose nice features that handled details
02:57<andythenorth>Joel has a whole post on it somewhere, tiresome as he now is :P
02:57<andythenorth>open dates is fixable I think
02:57<MMavipc>banannas back up yet?
02:58<andythenorth>supplies - patch for that has been around a while, but I haven't played a game to test it
02:58<Eddi|zuHause>MMavipc: ask TrueBrain
02:59<andythenorth>MMavipc: just ask the fricking internet ;)
02:59<andythenorth>the internet knows: http://bananas.openttd.org/en/
02:59<andythenorth>TB, if he is aware at all and not sleeping, probably doesn't want to be asked about it right now :P
03:00<andythenorth>"FIRS is boring" could probably be solved by economies, plus fixing the broken bits
03:00<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: where's your buy menu patch? I can test (with toddler interruptions) :P
03:00<andythenorth>maybe I could teach him to patch and test
03:01<andythenorth>he already knows that shell is where openttd comes from
03:01<andythenorth>I'm going to teach my kids shell as soon as they can type
03:01<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/resize_purchase_list2.diff
03:02<andythenorth>my irc client always adds www. to these urls :P
03:02<andythenorth>which is wrong :)
03:02<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i had a funny/illustrated book that taught me about DOS when i was a kid :)
03:03<andythenorth>I learnt BBC basic when I was about 7
03:03<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it always starts with www. your client is broken...
03:03<andythenorth>and before that I learnt run "foo" or "ch *. foo" etc
03:04<andythenorth>patch looks right
03:04<Eddi|zuHause>i still have the first part of the book, but not the second part that talked about batch programming
03:05<andythenorth>I'd better try it with different bounding boxes in FISH
03:05<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: like i said, in the purchase chain, check for extra_callback_info1
03:06<andythenorth>if I stop using cropped b. boxes should just work
03:06<andythenorth>I'll test
03:06<Eddi|zuHause>it doesn't care for "bounding boxes". the raw sprite sizes are what matters
03:07<andythenorth>that's a box yes / no?
03:07<andythenorth>x, y, width, height
03:07<andythenorth>I'll adjust that
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03:07<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but "bounding box" is a special 3D-concept in the game
03:07<andythenorth>ach ok
03:07<Eddi|zuHause>so you should not use that in this context
03:07<andythenorth>fine
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03:26<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: think the patch works
03:26<andythenorth>and yes, think I do need to check the vars during purchase chain
03:27<andythenorth>width is fine, height is not :P
03:27<Eddi|zuHause>yes, not sure if i should implement height in the purchase menu
03:28<andythenorth>hmm
03:28<andythenorth>try it? :P
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03:35<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: try www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/resize_purchase_list3.diff (untested)
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03:50<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: diff is missing?
03:50<andythenorth>http://users.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/resize_purchase_list3.diff
03:50<Eddi|zuHause>sorry, my fault
03:50<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: try again
03:50<andythenorth>works
03:53<andythenorth>hmm
03:53<andythenorth>if I fix start y, that should all be fine
03:53<andythenorth>hmm
03:54<andythenorth>existing sets have some issues
03:54<andythenorth>e.g. HEQS would need all purchase menu y start values resetting too
03:54<andythenorth>that's not tragic
03:54<andythenorth>prepared to break existing sets for this?
03:55<Eddi|zuHause>rather not
03:55<andythenorth>nars 2 looks ok
03:55<andythenorth>AV8 mostly looks ok
03:56<andythenorth>canrail breaks a bit
03:56<andythenorth>HEQS breaks a bit
03:57<andythenorth>egrvts is fine
03:57<Eddi|zuHause>mybe needs applying of the depot offset
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03:58<andythenorth>also this would make all purchase lists left-aligned
03:58<andythenorth>classically, game has been center-aligned for purchase menu
03:58<andythenorth>do we care?
04:00<Eddi|zuHause>i didn't find a sane way to keep that
04:00<Eddi|zuHause>it's probably one of the most controversial parts of the patch
04:04<andythenorth>x = (max_width / 2) - (sprite_width / 2) ?
04:05<andythenorth>I didn't read the patch, so I don't know if that's plausible
04:07<andythenorth>same problem as 'center my variable sized dialog on a variable sized screen' for GUI design
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04:13<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: misc flag for 'use improved buy menu' ? :P
04:15<andythenorth>if it was me, I'd just break newgrfs
04:16<andythenorth>but there's a reason why I don't have commit rights :P
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04:28<V453000>I guess there are no clues how long will the bananas hiccup last eh :z
04:28<andythenorth>that's how it goes :)
04:30<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I like the buy menu patch, think it's viable
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04:31<andythenorth>the other options are "add setx support to nml" <- ruled out by others
04:31<andythenorth>or "put FISH back into nfo"
04:31<andythenorth>I could probably use my python templating to generate nfo
04:31<Eddi|zuHause>setx is a known broken feature
04:32<andythenorth>so on the basis that the other options suck....
04:32<FLHerne>andythenorth: Did I just drop into one of your 'all my grfs are buggy' rants? :P
04:32<andythenorth>no
04:32<andythenorth>...the buy menu patch is the best route
04:33<FLHerne>andythenorth: Good :-)
04:33*FLHerne goes to look at the log
04:34<andythenorth>ho
04:35<andythenorth>10 years of newgrf?
04:35*andythenorth should stop complaining about it
04:35<andythenorth>:o
04:36<FLHerne>That long!? :o
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04:37<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: if you want to try centering, reinstate the two commented parts of src/build_vehicle_gui.cpp:885
04:38<Eddi|zuHause>basically it "breaks" CETS
04:40*FLHerne wonders where andythenorth went :P
04:41<Eddi|zuHause>toddler gnaws on his network cable :p
04:43<FLHerne>My rat does that sometimes :P
04:45<Eddi|zuHause>my guinea pigs used to gnaw on the TV cables all the time
04:46<FLHerne>Mine might if they were allowed in the living room :-)
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04:46<@Alberth>moin
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05:25<@Terkhen>good morning
05:28<__ln__>gm
05:29<Eddi|zuHause>interesting to see the newgrf timeline
05:29<Wolf01>hello Alberth, Terkhen
05:29<@Alberth>hi :)
05:29<__ln__>Terkhen: is there a requirement for people to carry some kind of an ID with them?
05:29<Wolf01>, frosch123
05:29<Wolf01>, __ln__
05:30<@Terkhen>what?
05:30<frosch123>hi wolf01 :)
05:30-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd
05:30<__ln__>Terkhen: in the kingdom of spain
05:31<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: i remember a legal dispute over here on whether the german law means "you need to have an ID [at home]" or "you need to carry an ID [with you]"
05:31<@Terkhen>I have no idea about how it works for foreigners
05:32<__ln__>Terkhen: what about non-foreigners?
05:32<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: what a nice ambiguity
05:33<andythenorth>so...I have some time to code
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05:33<andythenorth>maybe an hour or so
05:33<andythenorth>recode FISH to be compatible with Eddi's buy menu patch?
05:33<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i reinstated the centering in http://users.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/resize_purchase_list3.diff
05:33<andythenorth>try and extend cb22 to run monthly?
05:33<andythenorth>k
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05:33<andythenorth>I'll test the patch first
05:34<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but it "breaks" CETS (as in doesn't help fixing the overlap, due to larger offset)
05:34<andythenorth>hmm
05:34<andythenorth>fiddly situation
05:34<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: and FISH 0.9.2 looks very wide
05:34<andythenorth>you could change CETS?
05:34<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i might do that, yes
05:35<andythenorth>FISH 0.9.2 uses setx. setx is not supported. Problem goes away
05:35<andythenorth>i.e. "don't use things that aren't supported"
05:35<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but then FISH 0.9.2 will overlap
05:35<andythenorth>[shrug]
05:35<andythenorth>it uses unsupported feature
05:35<andythenorth>unsupported has to include 'may break'
05:35<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the left-aligning will "fix" the overlap
05:36<Eddi|zuHause>this basically is a problem of all "old" grfs with oversized sprites, i assume
05:36<andythenorth>yes
05:36<andythenorth>if they use setx, they fail the spec
05:36<andythenorth>so they break
05:36<andythenorth>should have stuck to the spec
05:36<Eddi|zuHause>setx was part of the spec when they were written
05:36<andythenorth>stuff changes?
05:37<Eddi|zuHause>and the specs are supposed to be "eternal"
05:37<andythenorth>that argument doesn't hold
05:37<Eddi|zuHause>(i.e. add new stuff, but never remove old stuff)
05:37<andythenorth>otherwise I'd be using setx in FISH, and you wouldn't be having to figure this patch out
05:37<andythenorth>spec clearly isn't eternal
05:37<andythenorth>empirically
05:38<V453000>fruit store online ^^
05:38<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: no centering for me in v3 :)
05:38<andythenorth>got some extra debug output though :)
05:38<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: wait
05:39<Eddi|zuHause>wrong url
05:39<andythenorth>have more tea
05:39<Eddi|zuHause>http://users.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/resize_purchase_list3_centered.diff
05:39<andythenorth>ta
05:39<TrueBrain>right, this should bring openttd.org back on its feet
05:39<TrueBrain>if you find any isuses, please let me know
05:40<V453000>:)
05:43<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: the centering patch appears to work
05:43<andythenorth>canrail is back where it should be
05:43<andythenorth>also AV8
05:44<andythenorth>HEQS has a few oddities, but I suspect that's in the grf
05:44<andythenorth>FISH I need to adjust offsets, but it will work
05:50<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: HEQS can be fixed by reinstating the old minimum width
05:52<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: did you test the sailing ship grf?
06:09<Eddi|zuHause>i hereby declare this patch "done" and ready for code review: http://users.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/resize_purchase_list3_final.diff
06:14<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: no I didn't test sailing ships yet
06:14<andythenorth>1 min
06:15<Eddi|zuHause>2cc set is also non-optimal
06:15<andythenorth>sailing ships looks ok
06:16<andythenorth>it has an insanely huge steamship that should clip insanely
06:16<andythenorth>but meh
06:18<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: baseline is off by a couple pixels http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3175/buy_menu_patch.png
06:19<andythenorth>maybe 1px, maybe 2
06:21<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that's an instance of the centering problem
06:21<V453000>try nuts 0.2.8 andy that has some really weird sprites for the purchase menu lately ... big ones with the numbers ... idk what could it do
06:23<V453000>does it center both ways? vertical/horizontal
06:24<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: is it also centering vertically
06:24<andythenorth>?
06:24<Eddi|zuHause>afaik, yes
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06:24<V453000>the gmund mog is 1 px higher in the patch it looks like ... at least from your screenshot andy
06:25<drac_boy>hi
06:25<andythenorth>V453000: NUTS 0.2.8 is fine with the patch. All your sprites are the same width
06:25<andythenorth>works well
06:25<V453000>oh right :) thanks
06:25<V453000>so it loads the whole sprite not just the "visible" part
06:25<Eddi|zuHause>now in FS#5271
06:25<drac_boy>mog? hmm is that ukrs2 or was it that world train set?
06:25<V453000>heqs
06:26<drac_boy>I know I've seen it before just forgot where
06:26<drac_boy>oh duh..right...trucks
06:26<V453000>trucks on rails
06:26<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: so definitely 1px too high on the baseline
06:26<andythenorth>hmm
06:26<andythenorth>V453000: I tested NUTS without the patch :P
06:27<andythenorth>mistake
06:27<drac_boy>V453000 I remember having fun with heqs on some servers before except for one stupid bug...the railmotors could not even actually carry anything at all
06:27<V453000>xD
06:27<V453000>drac_boy: dont tell me tell andythenorth :P
06:27<drac_boy>but then I think the server was one version behind at the time perhaps
06:27<drac_boy>something about eg it used 1.4 but the forum said 1.5
06:27<andythenorth>V453000: not fine :)
06:28<V453000>how much?
06:28<drac_boy>V453000 of course my favorite part of the whole HEQ was the trams alone almost literally :p
06:28<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3177/NUTS_buy_menu.png
06:28<andythenorth>V453000: you're using nml?
06:28<V453000>hmm
06:28<V453000>yeah sure
06:28<drac_boy>being able to have an economical low-speed low-cost freight line for eg a 76 tonnes forest to a sawmill that is not too far away :)
06:29<lugo>hi, just a quick one: is it possible to get MBs NewStations to use/show other than default railtracks?
06:29<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: must the length text be red?
06:29<drac_boy>I don't think there is even any other vehicle set that has freight trams or am I wrong?
06:29<andythenorth>V453000: how are you offsetting the buy menu text? nml doesn't support that
06:29<andythenorth>spaces?
06:29<V453000>Eddi|zuHause: no :D
06:29<V453000>andythenorth: yeah spaces :D
06:29<andythenorth>good luck when the font changes :P
06:29<andythenorth>or with right to left languages
06:29<andythenorth>tried it with opengfx font?
06:29<V453000>space is always space
06:30<andythenorth>nope
06:30<V453000>I mean
06:30<andythenorth>font char width is variable
06:30<andythenorth>I tried this for BANDIT
06:30<V453000>every text has .. 8 spaces before it
06:30<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: and you forgot to colour some "(Electric)"
06:30<andythenorth>err...for FISH :P
06:30<V453000>sure it can change with font
06:30<andythenorth>k as long as you know ;)
06:30<lugo>i am using pikkas finescale tracks atm, and all stationsets seem to recognize them .. despite MBs...
06:30<V453000>but each string has the same amount of spaces in front for me
06:30<V453000>Eddi|zuHause: thanks
06:31<drac_boy>V453000 can I tell you what I think of these locomotives in that list screenshot? :)
06:31<Eddi|zuHause>lugo: known issue. MB has a "fixed" version but doesn't release it for some reason
06:31<lugo>ah thanks!
06:31<V453000>drac_boy: of course :)
06:31<lugo>what a pity..
06:32<Eddi|zuHause>lugo: also you meant "except", not "despite"
06:33<lugo>right
06:33<drac_boy>second one .. looks a bit like a crocodile type but with bit shorter noses .. 'unlucky 13' kinda seem like as if its sitting on a high chassis like some older mountain electric boxcabs .. 'painkiller' kinda looks funny I think its sorta a cross between BR61 and BR05
06:33<drac_boy>:p
06:33<andythenorth>V453000: NUTS would work with the patch I think, all you'd do to fix it is remove the spaces
06:34<V453000>yeah thats just fine, thanks andythenorth :)
06:34<drac_boy>and btw just wondering..whats with the tiles-long number column?
06:34<V453000>yes that is exactly what they do drac_boy :)
06:35<V453000>if you mean the colourful numbers, that is their id in their class (colour)
06:35<drac_boy>hmm so how does repeated ids work in that list?
06:36<V453000>drac_boy: in fact most of the engines in this screenshot are going to be redrawn :)
06:36<V453000>it is an id in the class, first train in medium class, first train in fast class
06:36<V453000>of course it isnt the id of the vehicle in the newgrf
06:36<Eddi|zuHause>how does "painkiller" (something tiny) look anything like BR05/BR61 (large high speed express engines)?
06:36<V453000>:d
06:36<V453000>I have no clue how those trains look so .. :)
06:37<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause streamlined front ... and the lack of tender makes me think of BR61
06:37<drac_boy>'driving darkness' ... well it kinda looks like a typical diesel with offset cab .. except that its hard to make out any cab doors in the buy list on the contrast (then again I guess the name fits)
06:38<V453000>the point is, those trains arent supposed to resemble any real trains by any means :)
06:39<V453000>I dont really have a clue how BR123 or BR321 looks
06:39<drac_boy>V453000 I know but still have a quick look at this and you'll see why I thought of it http://www.m-users.net/pics/misc/lbe1.jpg
06:40<drac_boy>V453000 i still can't get over your silly naming system tho .. both before and now :p
06:40<V453000>:)
06:41<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: that's a BR61: http://www.rrsg.de/Henschel_Wegmann_Zug.jpg
06:41<V453000>not making up random names for almost 100 trains :)
06:41<drac_boy>V453000 btw if you're going to have 'unlucky 13' .. where is 'lucky 7' to take its place? :P
06:41<V453000>right :)
06:41<drac_boy>HEH
06:42<V453000>lucky 7 is 6 feet under
06:43<V453000>only evil things here, no luck
06:45<drac_boy>heh heh ok if you say so ... btw don't know if you were probably still looking for more electric loco names but try these two if you want: Mass Jolt (100+A, no need to do the math), Death Bolts (bolts = thunderbolts)
06:46<V453000>no not really :)
06:46<drac_boy>ok
06:46<V453000>I have all trains done, just upgrading sprites and adding visual features now
06:46<V453000>or editing train stats
06:46<drac_boy>Death Bolt kinda sounds funny tho
06:46<V453000>well all of my train names have very close resemblance to names of songs or bands :p
06:47<V453000>easiest place where to take names
06:49<V453000>hm, what colour to pick instead of the red but make people read that shit :-D
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06:51<frosch123>rainbow
06:52<Eddi|zuHause>i'd just make it "{BLACK}Length: {GOLD}1 Tile{GOLD}" like any other property
06:52<Eddi|zuHause>err... last GOLD should be BLACK
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06:53<Eddi|zuHause>i'm still pondering on a good way to include that in CETS
06:53<V453000>frosch123: :D
06:53<Eddi|zuHause>(calculating the "0.7 Tile(s)" automatically)
06:54<V453000>0.7? :d
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06:54<Eddi|zuHause>well CETS vehicles range from 3/16 to 14/16 (and longer for articulated)
06:55<Eddi|zuHause>so ICE1 (14 middle wagons) would be "12.7 Tiles"
06:55<V453000>hm
06:55<V453000>there is a reason I use only 8/8 ^^
06:57<drac_boy>CETS...can't remember if I've seen that before...
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06:57<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: well, the depot shows that properly
06:58<Eddi|zuHause>well almost properly, because there's a rounding error (16 values stuffed in 1 decimal)
06:59<andythenorth>I _think_ openttd just wiped out my mac with a kernel exception
06:59<andythenorth>however I can't be sure from the logs
06:59<andythenorth>might just be coincidence
06:59<Eddi|zuHause>"kernel exceptions" generally stem from ill-programmed drivers
07:00<Eddi|zuHause>not user programs
07:00<Eddi|zuHause>(those might be the cause, but never the reason)
07:00<__ln__>they can't stem from user programs unless there is a security vulnerability
07:01<andythenorth>KERN_INVALID_ADDRESS at 0x000000000001051c, 0 Dispatch queue: com.apple.main-thread
07:01<andythenorth>but it didn't kernel panic
07:01<andythenorth>I lost part of the GUI instead, and some keyboard
07:01<andythenorth>anyway, what's done is done :P
07:01<andythenorth>more likely my new SSD is failing
07:01<andythenorth>there is allegedly a ~50% failure rate on SSDs within the first few months of life
07:02<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds like a very educated guess :p
07:02<andythenorth>according to anecdotal, unscientific claims I read by a repairers
07:03<andythenorth>I suspect some kind of confirmation bias :P
07:03<__ln__>and a ~100% failure rate within the first 18 months
07:13<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: set the y_offset to 0 for trains (instead of -1)
07:13<andythenorth>dunno what edge cases that has :P
07:13<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that won't work properly
07:13<andythenorth>fails for default vehicles
07:15*andythenorth reverts
07:22<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: default vehicles look fine with patch
07:23*andythenorth wonders what to do next
07:24<andythenorth>kind of grumpy about FIRS game balance
07:25<andythenorth>"No Dairies before 1892" also means "no destination for milk before 1892"
07:25<V453000>im still thinking about some way how to improve that with something rather simple
07:25<andythenorth>milk seems solvable
07:25<V453000>oh those things you mean :)
07:26<andythenorth>I want to remove all the remaining *small* brokens
07:27<V453000>an option would be to make farms somehow more atractive
07:27<V453000>not just farms but also the stone/clay etc which doesnt produce its own supplies
07:27<V453000>there isnt an equivalent of biorefinery in the earlier game is there?
07:29<andythenorth>no
07:29<andythenorth>but there are destinations for those cargos
07:31<V453000>destination is nice but you need farm supplies :)
07:32<V453000>you dont care about biorefinery in 2010 if all your farms are already dead by then since 1920
07:32<andythenorth>your farms die? :o
07:32<V453000>well not mine I use the "no-dying" settings but still
07:34<V453000>if each of your mineral or oil industries makes 700-2000 units of cargo per month by that time you arent really interested in farms
07:35<V453000>but the settings with industries reducing production if not supplied just makes that even a lot bigger issue, as you definitely dont want to start with farms which cant make supplies for themselves
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07:39<andythenorth>V453000: I think a different set is needed, focussed on production amounts
07:47*andythenorth is looking for FIRS chains broken by intro dates
07:49<Eddi|zuHause>pre-industrial (-1800), industrial (1750-2000), post-modern (1950-)
07:50<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: worth thinking about certainly
07:50<Eddi|zuHause>dates might need tweaking, or a fourth phase
07:50<andythenorth>currently I'm setting date to 0 where the chain is broken (supplier is available, but no destination)
07:51<Eddi|zuHause>what date?
07:51<andythenorth>intro date; to be strict, I'm simply removing date checks from cb22
07:53<Eddi|zuHause>need more context
07:53<andythenorth>some chains have a supplier available from game start 0 (e.g. milk, livestock)
07:53<andythenorth>but no accepting industry until [some date]
07:53<andythenorth>which is silly
07:54<Eddi|zuHause>yes it is
07:54<andythenorth>I'll fix that first
07:54<Eddi|zuHause>but that is entirely your own fault
07:54<andythenorth>it annoyed me when I tried to play a game :P
07:54<andythenorth>yes my fault :P
07:55<andythenorth>additionally I'm moving multiple industries to < 1870 intro date
07:55<Eddi|zuHause>early shop: builds near towns, accepts food, milk, ...
07:55<Eddi|zuHause>closes around 1900
07:55<andythenorth>ah
07:56<andythenorth>the 'closing' idea
07:56<andythenorth>which doesn't exist :P
07:56<Eddi|zuHause>you have to forcefully close old industries
07:56<andythenorth>I can't, it annoys co-op players
07:56<Eddi|zuHause>it doesn't make sense to have these phases otherwise
07:56<andythenorth>it was ruled out very early in the set design
07:56<Eddi|zuHause>then they should start in 2000
07:56<Eddi|zuHause>when only the post-modern industries are around
07:57<andythenorth>point
07:57<Eddi|zuHause>it's the same as vehicle introduction
07:57<andythenorth>seen my comments on cb22?
07:57<andythenorth>I was hoping Alberth would be here :)
07:57<Eddi|zuHause>no
07:57<andythenorth>oh he is apparently :)
07:57<andythenorth>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=62134
07:57<@Alberth>he is? :)
07:58<andythenorth>^^ may make no sense, I was tired and cross
07:58<Eddi|zuHause>ah that
07:58<Eddi|zuHause>no, that made no sense
07:58<andythenorth>Alberth: do you understand how game tries to provide industries during gameplay?
07:58<Eddi|zuHause>there is no "monthly" industry creation
07:58<Eddi|zuHause>it's scaled by map size (larger maps create industries more often)
07:58<andythenorth>I know. There should be. It's stupid that there isn't :P
07:59<andythenorth>I tried to start patching it last night, but found that the code is rather elaborate
07:59<andythenorth>it tries to provide nice behaviour
07:59<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, how is that related to "no milk-accepting industry before X"?
07:59<andythenorth>it's not
07:59<andythenorth>they're decoupled issues
08:00<andythenorth>I'm fixing the 'no milk' issue ;)
08:00<andythenorth>the introduction issue might be solved by the extensions to cb 22 anyway
08:00<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, closing for not servicing: bad. closing randomly: bad. closing outdated chains: good.
08:01<@Alberth>monthly is very fast I think, currently it grows by 1 industry every 8-10 months or so, I think; I also don't understand what you aim to solve
08:01<andythenorth>try playing a FIRS game before say 1900
08:01<andythenorth>Aluminimum Plant and Bauxite Mine are available from 1923
08:01<@Alberth>yeah, you mentioned that yesterday iirc
08:01<andythenorth>Fertiliser Plant similar etc
08:02<andythenorth>they just don't show up in game very often
08:02<andythenorth>because we already have the required number of industries
08:02<andythenorth>or possibly because the map has no room I guess
08:02<andythenorth>I'm wondering if the issue is that the map has no room
08:03<andythenorth>but I'm so bored of testing randomised crap
08:03<andythenorth>you get a result in one game, how many more do you have to run to be sure that the result is valid?
08:03<andythenorth>tens? hundreds?
08:03<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth, andythenorth: i think a "solution" to that might be "reserving" unbuilt industry slots for industries that are not avaliable for some reason. then they have a larger creation chance when they become available (but you have fewer industries on the map before that)
08:04<andythenorth>I can also use the recent additions to cb22 to raise the probability
08:04<andythenorth>completely separate issue: when industries have intro dates, it's impossible to balance industry types reliably at game start (for different start dates)
08:05<@Alberth>afaik you basically get X industries at the start, and X grows VERY slowly in time
08:05<Eddi|zuHause>so if you have a map with 40 industries and 80 "industry slots", equally distributed, but 5 industries are not available, then only 70 industries are on the map
08:05<andythenorth>should sum the probabilities the same way too
08:05<@Alberth>so you basically only get new industries (and types of industries) by closing old ones
08:06<andythenorth>hmm
08:06<andythenorth>so if game is trying to build 55 industries
08:06*andythenorth needs to be better at explaining
08:06<Eddi|zuHause>so if an industry now becomes available, it immediately gets 2 open slots for industry creation, despite the map being already full of industries
08:06<andythenorth>there is a solution here
08:06<andythenorth>based on the action 0 probs
08:06<andythenorth>and summing those, dividing by number of industries required
08:07<andythenorth>then checking cb 22 and reducing number of industries required accordingly
08:07<@Alberth>I start to think the current system is too static
08:07<andythenorth>I'm sure I've explained that inadequately
08:07<@Alberth>the idea by Eddi could be one step
08:08<andythenorth>I should make a paste of all the associated issues
08:08<andythenorth>we also have the problem of hilly or mountainous maps
08:08<andythenorth>where industry simply can't find a valid location
08:08<@Alberth>but tbh, I don't exactly know what one would want from industries in the game
08:09<andythenorth>ok assume you start in 1800, and 33% of your industries are unavailable, and you have industry setting normal
08:09<andythenorth>@calc 0.33 * 55
08:09<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 18.15
08:09<andythenorth>@calc 0.66 * 55
08:09<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 36.3
08:09<andythenorth>so you get 36 industries built, according to the relative probabilities of the subset of available industries
08:10<Eddi|zuHause>there needs to be a "static" industry availability callback (that does not depend on *where* the industry should be built) and a *dynamic* industry availability callback (that depends on the location)
08:10<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: just the year should be enough?
08:10<@Alberth>and you may want an 'ending' year too
08:11<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: well, all "global" NewGRF variables (should global storage ever be introduced)
08:12<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: weird idea #45255: certain industries could only appear if there is a company with rating >800
08:12<@Alberth>andythenorth: I think the current system is mostly designed for the static set of default industries
08:13<@Alberth>and thus it fails horribly with the dynamic systems you try in FIRS
08:13<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: the default set has an "ending" year for oil wells
08:13<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: yeah, but #45255 makes any form of planning impossible
08:14<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: that's a special case afaik
08:14<andythenorth>food -> brb
08:15<@Alberth>I am pondering whether you can ditch all existing stuff, and move it all to some simple experimenting environment
08:15<@Alberth>so you can actually test what you want to have
08:16<Eddi|zuHause>embed a game script into the industry newgrf :)
08:17<@Alberth>sure, but newgrf spec is very much in the way for any official way of doing that
08:17<@Alberth>and basically kills any option for experimenting
08:18<@Alberth>perhaps with a source code patch?
08:18<Eddi|zuHause>the general idea of newgrfs is that the game provides a flexible algorithm that can be tuned by some parameters, which the newgrf can then set
08:19<frosch123>maybe we can somehow accelerate closure of old industries
08:19<frosch123>i.e. if there are a lot more industries of one type than there should be, make it more likely for them too close
08:20<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: currently FIRS has no closure at all. which takes some of the dynamics out of it
08:20<@Alberth>s/some/most/
08:20<@Alberth>frosch123: but the newgrf decides, not the program
08:20<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: ah, so firs breaks that :p
08:20<@Alberth>frosch123: otherwise I would have implemented your idea long ago
08:21<Eddi|zuHause>basically it removes the ability of self-tuning beyond "add an additional industry every X years"
08:24<@Alberth>being able to shut down industries, and changing creation probabilities over time may be sufficient to get changing industry types in time
08:24<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: your idea of reserving would work at the cost of less industries to play with at the start
08:25<frosch123>so, should we relax the industry production change callbacks?
08:25<frosch123>instead of letting them make a definite decisions, make them return likelyness of closure/changes
08:26<frosch123>so ottd can close the one which complains the least
08:26<frosch123>we already have the changing probabilities over time
08:28<@Alberth>imo, an industry cannot decide how much it likes to be closed, other than for local use
08:28<@Alberth>that however is easy to see by openttd as well
08:28<frosch123>it can decide proximity to towns or, height or whatever
08:28<frosch123>or lifetime
08:29<frosch123>all those weird rules in pbi and ecs
08:29<@Alberth>hmm, fair points, ok
08:30<frosch123>a industry might also consider servicing some cargos more important that others
08:30*Alberth nods
08:32<@Alberth>should a user be able to postpone 'eminent closure' ?
08:32<@Alberth>eg by paying a sum of money?
08:32*drac_boy thankfully is not going to have to put up with this for my project :p
08:32<Eddi|zuHause>but that does still not help if the industry grf decides "no closure whatsoever"
08:32<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: don't play with that grf
08:33<@Alberth>or do play if you want static industries
08:33<Eddi|zuHause>like i said above. "random" closure is bad
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08:35*andythenorth reads beack
08:35<andythenorth>back even :P
08:35<andythenorth>- global newgrf storage has been ruled out multiple times
08:36<andythenorth>hmm
08:37<andythenorth>"new industry types don't get built" seems to unpick a lot of other issues about newgrf industry behaviour
08:37<andythenorth>that wasn't quite my intention :)
08:38<andythenorth>I don't see how we can make openttd handle closure etc and honour 'everything should be done via newgrf'
08:38<@Alberth>it's impossible imho
08:38<andythenorth>we just end up with behaviour in the core game that annoys some subset of players
08:38<andythenorth>we already have that, so why bother changing that code :)
08:39<@Alberth>make andy less unhappy?
08:39<andythenorth>i.e. swap old annoyance for new annoyance :P
08:39<andythenorth>solving closure is quite easy: turn it off in newgrf
08:39<andythenorth>do without it
08:39<Eddi|zuHause>there is probably no "perfect" solution
08:39<frosch123>andythenorth: if opening and closure is mostyl controlled by ottd, we can add an economy speed setting
08:39<Eddi|zuHause>but i think there is room for improvement
08:39<andythenorth>solving opening might also benefit from the same approach: don't require opening
08:40<frosch123>however, biggest problem remains: primary industries close when they keep on reducing production; not when they make a "close" decision
08:40<frosch123>andythenorth: i thought opening is already perfect
08:40<frosch123>just closure is the problem
08:41<andythenorth>no
08:41<frosch123>and newgrfs disabling closure might break opening in certain cases
08:41<andythenorth>closure is broken imho, but we know that can't be fixed
08:41<andythenorth>so I just turn off closure, problem solved
08:41<frosch123>by that "solving" you break opening :p
08:41<frosch123>and you do not really solve anything
08:41<andythenorth>and I don't try and solve it any more for players who want it on
08:41<frosch123>as smithy forges will just remain till year 3000
08:42<andythenorth>but they have to anyway
08:42<andythenorth>it's a FIRS requirement that it doesn't break delivery chains for co-op style games
08:42<NGC3982>This is very odd.
08:43<andythenorth>so if disabling closure causes problems opening new industry types....
08:43<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you can't have "never close" and "industry ages"... it's two conflicting ideas
08:43<andythenorth>my point
08:43<andythenorth>I should remove inro dates
08:43<andythenorth>intro *
08:43<Eddi|zuHause>no
08:43<andythenorth>?
08:43<Eddi|zuHause>you should allow closing outdated industries
08:43<andythenorth>but that's against the set goals
08:44<andythenorth>I've alienated enough of the contributors already
08:44<Eddi|zuHause>you should relax the ill-conceived set goals
08:44<andythenorth>I don't think I can keep changing the goals
08:44<NGC3982>I have a dedicated 1.2.1 server running. A standard generated map with the current NewGRF's: ECS/FIRS vehicle set, ECS cargoset, ECS town, basic II, chemicals, construction, machinery and wood vector. FISH 0.9.2, eGRVTS v1.0 and 2cc 2.0.0.
08:44<frosch123>andythenorth: if you want static industries, yuo have to drop introduction dates
08:44<NGC3982>For some reason, people trying to join can't get the GRF's from the online-content
08:44<frosch123>replace them with upgradnig industries
08:44<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you already have a setting, make it three-state: "never close", "only close outdated", "close randomly"
08:44<frosch123>just turn all smithy forges into steelmills at some date
08:44<frosch123>and maybe make them accept more cargos
08:45<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: and make "close outdated" the default
08:46<andythenorth>k
08:46<andythenorth>plausible
08:47<andythenorth>so that's closing
08:47<andythenorth>opening is still broken
08:47<andythenorth>why shouldn't I just drop intro dates?
08:47<andythenorth>even with closing, they're broken
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08:47<Eddi|zuHause>you could drop intro dates, but then you have to implement economies :)
08:48<andythenorth>I can't do that without a python conversion, or a collaborator
08:48<andythenorth>I can do the python conversion
08:48<andythenorth>I refuse to touch the cpp stuff
08:48<andythenorth>it's hard to work with, and I get shouted at here for asking questions about it
08:48<@Alberth>NGC3982: work is being done on the servers currently, I think
08:49<andythenorth>sick of being told "you're an idiot for using the wrong tools" when I didn't write the codebase
08:49<andythenorth>anyway
08:49<andythenorth>opening dates
08:49<andythenorth>most of the industry types are new, they don't replace an old type
08:50<andythenorth>but the game makes no effort to build them as there are enough industries on the map
08:50<NGC3982>Alberth: Oh.
08:50<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i have nothing to add there beyond what i suggested above
08:50<andythenorth>[if I've understood the code correctly]
08:51<andythenorth>so what are the problems with running cb22 monthly?
08:52<andythenorth>currently newgrf can control closure but not opening
08:52<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the question was: "what does it solve"?
08:52<andythenorth>newgrf can force industries to open, assuming they can find a valid site on the map
08:52<@Alberth>andythenorth: new industries have very few instance on the map, so they get a higher probability to be used as replacement
08:54<@Alberth>assuming industries get replaced, otherwise they must be added through the slowly incrementing number of industries at the map, but that is VERY slow
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08:54<andythenorth>VERY
08:54<andythenorth>my proposal is to simply bypass the industry creation during gameplay
08:54<andythenorth>philosophically, I can't see any problem
08:55<andythenorth>let the newgrf control it
08:55<andythenorth>maybe it's simply a new cb
08:56<andythenorth>maybe it just runs monthly, and calls DoCreateNewIndustry() or not, based on cb result
08:56<andythenorth>maybe it can run multiple times too
08:56<andythenorth>per type
08:58<andythenorth>cb160: monthly industry construction check. Called or each industry type. Return 0 to build none, or return number of this type to try and build
08:59<andythenorth>or / for /s
08:59<@Alberth>that breaks any chance of a GS that manages industries
08:59<andythenorth>that horse bolted already
09:01<frosch123>it also fails for multiple industry sets
09:01<andythenorth>because...?
09:03<andythenorth>an alternative idea...
09:03<andythenorth>actually figure out an interface between GS and Newgrf
09:03<andythenorth>forget backwards compatibility with existing industry sets
09:03<andythenorth>i.e. don't break them, but they're not GS compatible
09:04<andythenorth>then solve these FIRS problems in a GS
09:04<frosch123>because you cannot balance the total number of industries against other sets
09:04<andythenorth> frosch123 I'm not sure that's a real world goal
09:05<andythenorth>how about I solve it like this for now:
09:05<andythenorth>- remove the intro dates (and associated lang stuff)
09:05<andythenorth>- diff that
09:05<andythenorth>- put the diff somewhere safe
09:05<andythenorth>- await a future solution, possibly mythical
09:05<andythenorth>- reapply the diff to FIRS at that point
09:06<andythenorth>all FIRS industries will be available irrespective of start date
09:06<andythenorth>but it can be better in future
09:07<@Alberth>tag the last revision with the dates, and it's safe
09:07<@Alberth>and findable
09:07<andythenorth>k
09:07<andythenorth>I'm bored of trying to make f
09:08*andythenorth is bored of not being able to type properly
09:08<andythenorth>screwed up my wrists holding children
09:08<andythenorth>can't tell if I've hit a key or missed it :P
09:08<@Alberth>and they are too yound to type, I guess :)
09:08<andythenorth>too young to type anything useful
09:09<andythenorth>anyway, I'm bored of trying to make things work that are fundamentally broken :)
09:09<andythenorth>and every time it's discussed we can't even agree goals
09:10<andythenorth>I could take the lame (avoid conflict) route, and make intro dates a parameter
09:10<andythenorth>but I don't know how to code that
09:11*andythenorth is being too noisy and will go away
09:15<andythenorth>if I remove the intro date from the steel mill, might as well remove the iron works industry
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09:18<@Alberth> I think we can agree on a goal for industries, but nobody has thought about that deeply enough and/or cared to write it down. Until we have an overall agreed idea of what an industry set should actually do in the game, we won't get anywhere probably.
09:18<@Alberth>The big complication here is that the solution is probably between cpp and newgrf, so you need a person that understands both to solve it
09:18<andythenorth>wrt what industry set can do, we can only write down proper domain
09:18<andythenorth>as there's obviously no agreement amongst players / authors about industry sets :)
09:18<@Alberth>"proper domain" ?
09:19<andythenorth>what's in scope for industry newgrf, and what they must yield to other things
09:19<@Alberth>I can live with several goals, selectable by newgrf
09:19<@Alberth>or by player or whatever
09:19<andythenorth>is it annoying to type multiple lines here? is a paste better?
09:19<andythenorth>I am going to list aims of FIRS
09:20<andythenorth>and then we can mark them valid or not
09:20<@Alberth>make a wiki?
09:20<andythenorth>ugh
09:20<@Alberth>or a text file
09:20<@Alberth>irc is so quickly lost
09:20<andythenorth>forum post :P
09:21<@Alberth>FIRS readme :p
09:38<NGC3982>Bah.
09:38<NGC3982>This headache will be the death of me.
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09:44<andythenorth>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1647/
09:44<andythenorth>Alberth: ^
09:45<andythenorth>look at the raw version, it wordwraps :P
09:45<NGC3982>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXvsl8xgRxc&feature=context-gfa
09:45<andythenorth>Also should add "FIRS will not attempt to be compatible with other industry sets"
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09:48<@Alberth>"We also want it to be a lot of fun." lol :) nice goal, but hard to code :)
09:49<@Alberth>I copied the text into my editor and pushed some sanity into it :)
09:49<andythenorth>I found some typos :P
09:49<andythenorth>most of the goals are met or abandoned
09:50<andythenorth>hmm
09:50<andythenorth>I should add "Don't much restrict where players can build industries (we don't)"
09:50<Eddi|zuHause>"There will be 50 industries" <-- how strict is that goal?
09:50<andythenorth>And also "Don't tie up map gen for ages with complex industry location rules"
09:51<NGC3982>Alberth: I can join my game locally, so online-content should not be an issue.
09:51<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: not strict, it's co-incidence that I currently have 49
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09:51<andythenorth>could be more, could be less
09:52<NGC3982>If someone has the time, please join the ttd server at ttd.dndr.se:3979 (password: kebab) and note possible errors while handling the server GRF's?
09:52<Eddi|zuHause>then rephrase it as "the aim is at around 50 industries"... but a better thing would be something like "X industries per timeframe/economy"
09:52<NGC3982>That would help me see if anything is wrong with the online-content i have used, or the actual server.
09:52<@Alberth>NGC3982: version?
09:52<NGC3982>1.2.1
09:54<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: changed it to reference economies
09:54<andythenorth>and 'industry types' not 'industries'
09:54<@Alberth>NGC3982: sorry, don't have that in my archive
09:54<NGC3982>Alberth: Ah, np. :)
09:55<NGC3982>But, being able to join locally or online should not affect how a client downloads online-content
09:55<andythenorth>the only FIRS goal that's really blocked is "Some types of industry close and new ones appear"
09:56<andythenorth>and the first part of that I could do
09:56<andythenorth>the second part I can't
09:56<andythenorth>but it seems to be like a thumb in dyke (dutchies will like this :P )
09:56<@Alberth>andythenorth: your "big industry" problem is about not being to specify wanted terraform wishes with an industry
09:56<andythenorth>Alberth: yes
09:57<@Alberth>+able :)
09:57<andythenorth>although even then, there's only so many mountains you can knock down
09:57<andythenorth>might be tmwftlb
09:57<@Alberth>the game might impose a max amount of terraforming
09:57<andythenorth>allow it to fill in sea :P
09:58*NGC3982 terraforms andythenorth
09:58<andythenorth>seems that trying to fix industry opening unpicks all of industry newgrf spec :P
09:58<@Alberth>nice, finally a chance to use your ships :p
09:58*andythenorth is about to go to a pirate party
09:58<andythenorth>not that kind
09:59<andythenorth>the toddler kind
09:59<andythenorth>what I'd appreciate is nitpick replies on the goals
09:59<@Alberth>I believe your opening problem is a result of your not-closing old industries policy
09:59<andythenorth>maybe
09:59<andythenorth>but that assumes new types are 1:1 replacement of old types
09:59<andythenorth>but almost entirely, they're not
10:00<@Alberth>why does it assume that?
10:00<andythenorth>closing old types makes way for new types?
10:00<@Alberth>afaik it does
10:01<andythenorth>so in the case where there are no old types to close?
10:01<andythenorth>there'll be no space
10:02<andythenorth>bear in mind I mostly removed 'old types'
10:02<NGC3982>* andythenorth is about to go to a pirate party
10:02<@Alberth>you have too many of some industry-types, and too few of other types. Closing an industry causes a search for a replacement, where a type with too few current instances gets a higher probability to be used
10:02<NGC3982>I see, i see.
10:02<andythenorth>Alberth: yes
10:02<NGC3982>Yarr, and a train of men.
10:02<@Alberth>s/used/created
10:02<andythenorth>so the problem is new types?
10:02<NGC3982>andythenorth: How does children and coding match?
10:03<@Alberth>the problem is "replacement" which you are not doing, then, isn't it?
10:03<andythenorth>you can make that case yes
10:03<andythenorth>I'm not sure that's the root cause
10:04<@Alberth>no idea how to fix that though :(
10:04<andythenorth>if I start a game in 1870....these types all need to get built: Fertiliser Plant, Bio Refinery, Aluminium Plant, Bauxite Mine, Cement Plant, Recycling Plant, Recycling Depot, Oil Platform, Oil Wells, Oil Refinery, Dairy, Petrol Pump, Plastics Plant,
10:04<andythenorth>and meanwhile 0 industries are closing
10:04<@Alberth>you can get new industries by 2 ways, either create extra ones, or replace old ones by new ones. OpenTTD does mostly the latter
10:05<@Alberth>or rather "assumes that to happen"
10:09<andythenorth>bbl
10:09<andythenorth>toddler fun
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10:16<@Alberth>har harr , wb andy
10:16<andythenorth_>Is var 67 available to cb 22?
10:17<Chris_Booth>I never knew I have a Var 67
10:17<andythenorth_>I could limit total num each type on map
10:18<andythenorth_>Scaled by map size
10:18<andythenorth_>Leaving room for new types
10:21<@Alberth>at the cost of fewer industries early in the game (if you can access var 67)
10:29<@Alberth>I considered that solution, but discarded it on the argument that it is nonsense to keep free industry slots for 90 years just because in 2020 a new industry becomes available
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10:38<drac_boy>hi
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10:43<drac_boy>hi drush
10:43<drush>hi drac_boy
10:43<drush>hello everyone
10:43<drac_boy>how're you?
10:44<drush>fine
10:44<drush>you?
10:44<drac_boy>doing ok
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10:57<drac_boy>up to anything or not so much?
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11:31<drush>just finished trying out my corei7 build of zdoom
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11:32<drush>not sure if choppy fps while turning is fault of stepping down optimization from O3 to O2, would have to trial an O3 build
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11:36<andythenorth_>For an early start date few industries might be nice anyway
11:36<andythenorth_>Although perhaps not
11:41<drush>andythenorth_ have you played industry giant games?
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11:44<drac_boy>drush I used to a bit
11:46<drac_boy>and mm well its not related to transportation I know..but I still like Capitalism sometimes
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11:49<drush>in ottd it's actually possible to control the market, just saying
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12:13<TrueBrain>wb
12:13<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: could try an industry scheme based on distinct phases?
12:13<andythenorth>not sure it fixes the opening problem, but...overlook that now
12:13<andythenorth>I'm open to your suggestions on this
12:25<@Alberth>andythenorth: about your goals, I was thinking a bit more high level, as in, what is the function of an industry set in the game, what does it provide to a player?
12:25<andythenorth>makes sense
12:26<andythenorth>I wasn't intending we agree / disagree on FIRS goals
12:26<andythenorth>it's just...evidence of what has come up in 4 years of FIRS
12:26<andythenorth>empiricism, not theory ;)
12:28<andythenorth>so what *must* an industry set provide:
12:28<andythenorth>- industries, yes
12:28<andythenorth>- cargos: arguably not, but it's silly not to
12:28<andythenorth>what must an industry set not provide:
12:29<andythenorth>- other features, e.g. new objects, vehicles etc. And especially houses.
12:29<andythenorth>- town control
12:30<andythenorth>hmm
12:30<andythenorth>TAI probably violates a number of those
12:30<andythenorth>and it will probably be good
12:31<@Alberth>it needs some more work, I think, as your own list is not a good instance of this list of requirements
12:32<andythenorth>are we trying to solve GS here as well?
12:32<andythenorth>wrt industries?
12:32<@Alberth>let's abstract from how we reach the goal(s)
12:33<andythenorth>k
12:34<@Alberth>eg your "Industries will belong to certain time periods." seems to be missing, or is that not a goal in general?
12:34<andythenorth>it's not a general goal
12:34<andythenorth>unless you define that it includes '1 time period - eternity'
12:35<andythenorth>which then makes it a bit useless :)
12:36<@Alberth>my problem is a bit that "industries + cargos" is so generic that it gives no direction
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12:36<@Alberth>not sure how to fix it, but perhaps how industries interact with the player?????
12:37<@Alberth>but perhaps that's already too complicated :(
12:38<@Alberth>or too controversial :p
12:38<andythenorth>too hard
12:39<@Alberth>make kinds of industry interaction?
12:39<@Alberth>eg one type of player probably wants fixed industries throughout the game
12:39<@Alberth>other players want more dynamic behaviour
12:39<andythenorth>static vs dynamic?
12:40<andythenorth>work out what it takes to provide each?
12:40<@Alberth>my guess is there are several forms of dynamic
12:40<andythenorth>yes
12:40<@Alberth>work out what useful forms there are seems complicated enough to me atm
12:40<andythenorth>I get bored quickly with taxonomy though :)
12:41*andythenorth is not a good librarian
12:41<andythenorth>FIRS is not doing either form well
12:42<andythenorth>might be enough to say be either static or dynamic
12:42<@Alberth>dynamic on time, dynamic on production level, dynamic on user-interaction?
12:42<andythenorth>dynamic on open/close
12:42<andythenorth>so there are dimensions
12:43<@Alberth>dynamic w.r.t production changes
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12:46<@Alberth>dynamic w.r.t. number of industries in the world
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12:46<andythenorth>+1
12:47<@Alberth>what challenge should an industry set provide to the player?
12:48<@Alberth>dynamic w.r.t. placement of industries?
12:49<@Alberth>afk for a while
13:01<andythenorth>I've moved a lot of FIRS industries to start dates just before 1830
13:02<andythenorth>those are the earliest trains in Pikka's sets
13:02<andythenorth>before that, it's masochistic to play OpenTTD :P
13:02*andythenorth usually starts 1870
13:02<__ln__>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tc4ROCJYbm0 some guys called Kernighan and Ritchie and others telling about how the UNIX system works
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13:15*Alberth has already read "the design of the Unix operating system"
13:18<andythenorth>Alberth: another dimension for industry newgrf: cares about reality, or not
13:18<andythenorth>for FIRS, I try to placate my inner nerd with semi-realistic intro dates / expiry dates
13:18<@Alberth>how do you measure that?
13:19<andythenorth>dates, cargos, appearance
13:19<andythenorth>location rules
13:19<andythenorth>production rules
13:19<andythenorth>"cares about reality" implies dynamic
13:19<andythenorth>hmm
13:20<@Alberth>I understand that it is a industry set property, but what does it mean in technical game play ?
13:20<andythenorth>almost nothing
13:20<andythenorth>if this progressed to specifying an interface to make industries, it would mean nothing
13:20<andythenorth>it's a subset of Dynamic
13:21<andythenorth>ignore it
13:21<andythenorth>players care
13:21<@Alberth>yeah, it's a good openttd buzzword for selling stuff :)
13:21<andythenorth>but I have multiple contradictory feature requests for FIRS, based on realism, so forget it :P
13:21<andythenorth>"industries must locate in towns, more realistic"
13:22<andythenorth>"industries must not locate in town, more realistic"
13:22<andythenorth>:P
13:22<andythenorth>static implies all cargos always available, whatever game year
13:22<andythenorth>dynamic doesn't
13:22<@Alberth>oh, I thought "industries must not locate in towns, it is too complicated to play" :)
13:22<andythenorth>don't start that debate :P
13:23<andythenorth>I don't like non-available cargos btw
13:23<andythenorth>it means there are vehicles that show a cargo capability, but the cargo is not on the map
13:23<andythenorth>bothers my tidy mind
13:23*andythenorth tea
13:23<andythenorth>think on :)
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>introduce a callback to hide cargos from the GUI
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>based on global data (game year)
13:24<andythenorth>be a pain in the arse for vehicle set authors
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>why?
13:24<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: I was thinking about that too, but it makes vehicles unpredictable
13:25<andythenorth>testing is difficult, more boring
13:25<andythenorth>you might have wrong refittability, but not know it
13:25<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: what if none of the cargos is available?
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: then the vehicle is hidden
13:25<@Alberth>or only after refitting?
13:26<andythenorth>it's a fair point though for dynamic gameplay
13:26<andythenorth>should the cargo be visible or not
13:26<@Alberth>the game put down a new industry, and ploep, new vehicles, without getting advance testing opportunity
13:27<andythenorth>complex
13:27<andythenorth>avoid
13:27<andythenorth>hmm
13:27<andythenorth>another dimension: evilness :P
13:27<Eddi|zuHause>let's assume the cargo callback is run once per year, then after the callback run, re-check all vehicles whether the refitability is now possible, and make those vehicles available then
13:27<Eddi|zuHause>when the cargo is unavailable, the industry will not show it either
13:27<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: I see no point in making that a cb, tbh
13:28<andythenorth>game could check for acceptance on map?
13:28<andythenorth>no acceptance, no point transporting
13:28<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: haha, no, you cannot make a coal mine, as you don't have other ones :D
13:29<@Alberth>oh, you mean something else :)
13:29<Eddi|zuHause>no, i mean a callback directly for the cargo.
13:30<Eddi|zuHause>once "COAL" says it's available, you can place coal mines and power stations
13:30<@Alberth>interesting idea
13:30<Eddi|zuHause>once "STEL" says it's available, Factories say they accept steel (they accept livestock and grain before)
13:31<andythenorth>interesting
13:31<andythenorth>keep it to hand :)
13:31<andythenorth>if your cargo disappears?
13:31<andythenorth>close industries?
13:31<@Alberth>reduce number of them
13:33<andythenorth>example: FIRS milk could be hidden until [some date]
13:33<andythenorth>then become available from Dairy Farms, triggering the construction of Dairies
13:33<andythenorth>the reasons - realistic or otherwise - we can ignore for now
13:34<andythenorth>Recyclables could be hidden, then when available, trigger construction of Recycling Depots / Plants
13:34<andythenorth>valid use cases
13:34<andythenorth>definitely static not dynamic :)
13:35<andythenorth>strikes me that whole chains appearing by date is more interesting than single new industries
13:35<andythenorth>openttd gameplay does better with graph-type stuff
13:38<Eddi|zuHause>pop up a news message "new cargo introduced: <type>. This new invention causes a temporary increase in economic activity."
13:38<Eddi|zuHause>and then run the industry generator a few times
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>and pop up news messages (or prototype previews) for new vehicles
13:39<andythenorth>much more the gameplay I was trying to create with FIRS
13:39<andythenorth>it's a straight copy of Railroad Tycoon 3 tbh :P
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>i have never played that game
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>i wonder if i still have RRT1 around somewhere
13:40<andythenorth>new cargo becomes available, vehicles can now carry it, and the map will spawn a bunch of the new industries
13:40<andythenorth>RT3 scenarios are quite tightly scripted, so it works rather well
13:40<andythenorth>things like "1853: fertiliser plants are invented, you can now deliver fertiliser to farms for a 50% production boost"
13:41<andythenorth>but also dynamic acceptance is possible, which we can't have
13:41<andythenorth>"After 1860 all Iron Ore must be delivered to a Steel Mill; Tool Shops no longer accept it"
13:42<andythenorth>we can nearly do that, but the industry window text is broken
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>it's difficult to make cargo disappear, gameplay wise
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>because there are existing industries and vehicles that carry them
13:45<andythenorth>hmm
13:45<andythenorth>needs the equivalent of the climate availability trick for vehicles :P
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>so first close all industries, then remove the cargo? what about industries that produce two things, the other thing doesn't have to disappear
13:45<andythenorth>"no more will be produced"
13:46<andythenorth>no the other thing doesn't disappear
13:46<Eddi|zuHause>remove the cargo, leaving industries which don't produce anything?
13:48<andythenorth>hmm
13:48<andythenorth>what if it's a secondary that requires both inputs?
13:48<andythenorth>meh, in that case the author screwed up :P
13:48<Eddi|zuHause>what about NewGRFs checking for cargo availability? they need separate checks for "is currently available" and "is potentially available in the future/past"
13:48<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: what if the two industries are from different sets? :)
13:50<andythenorth>[shrug]
13:50<andythenorth>what if we delegate all control of cargos to the GS?
13:50<@Alberth>that just shifts the problem imho
13:51<andythenorth>industries become a little more dumb
13:51<andythenorth>they simply produce or accept the active cargos according to [some internal rules]
13:51<andythenorth>GS gets no control over production mechanic, but gets to control overall economy
13:51<@Alberth>hmm, we moved away from goals
13:51<andythenorth>sorry
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>that can't work
13:52<andythenorth>got a bit implementation-ish
13:52<Eddi|zuHause>can't decide global economy when you can't make sense of local economy
13:52<Eddi|zuHause>and you can't bundle newgrf and game script
13:52<andythenorth>no
13:52<andythenorth>it's always baffled me quite a lot
13:52<@Alberth>why do you have changing industries, from a game play point of view?
13:53<andythenorth>when we discuss GS and newgrf, on one hand it's refused that GS *must* depend on newgrf
13:53<andythenorth>i.e. we want to be able to write GS that works with any newgrf
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: more dynamic/less boring
13:53<@Alberth>how less boring?
13:54<andythenorth>on the other hand, we want tight integration between newgrf and GS, so GS can control everything
13:54<andythenorth>kind of confusing to me
13:54<@Alberth>does it make a difference whether you are dynamic in changing production or in making/closing industries?
13:54<andythenorth>yes
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: introducing a new cargo type is a different challenge after your network is already set up than when you start from scratch with all cargos present
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>you might have to introduce a new delivery point, instead of delivering more to the same point
13:56<andythenorth>+1
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>many players connect all primary industries to the same secondary industry. that can't happen with completely new secondary industries
13:57<Eddi|zuHause>(unless the player funds the industry directly next to his dropoff station, of course)
13:57<@Alberth>but they are all just forms of "interesting game play", I think
13:57<@Alberth>which some users like and others hate
13:57<Eddi|zuHause>yes. different forms. different challenges.
13:57<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: you've clarified what I meant above about graph based gameplay
13:58<andythenorth>introducing a new industry which is just a variant of existing chains doesn't necessitate changing the graph
13:58<andythenorth>they're mostly kind of boring, I've tried it in FIRS
13:58<Eddi|zuHause>there needs to be a fundamental gameplay difference whether you play original, PBI, ECS or FIRS
13:58<andythenorth>a new chain is a new graph
13:58<Eddi|zuHause>not just lots of the same, with different graphics
13:59*Alberth thinks of a certain new baset set :p
13:59<andythenorth>FIRS suffers from trying not to be too flavoursome
13:59<andythenorth>it's mostly just "more" + pretty graphics
13:59<@Alberth>or perhaps from not choosing?
13:59<andythenorth>hence why I often contemplate removing supplies
14:00<andythenorth>as they're the only contentious thing in it :P
14:00<andythenorth>the middle of the road is a dangerous place to be though :P
14:00<andythenorth>FISH, HEQS, and CHIPS are more definite in their character
14:01*andythenorth has learnt a lesson from all this :P
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14:02<Ryton>!password
14:02-!-Ryton was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.]
14:02<Eddi|zuHause>oh what a rare sight these days :)
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14:03<Ryton>oops
14:03<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: rather remove everything except the supplies and start designing from there :)
14:03<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: heh
14:03<andythenorth>supplies are where I started :P
14:04<andythenorth>I only invented them to give purpose to some small HEQS vehicles :P
14:04<andythenorth>I should have stuck to that :P
14:04<andythenorth>I wanted an industry set that would give me an excuse to include nodwells in HEQS
14:04<andythenorth>it grewed
14:05<andythenorth>http://foremost.ca/index_nodwell.php
14:06<@Alberth>andythenorth: many people think supplies are a good idea
14:06<andythenorth>yes but they don't agree which idea
14:06<andythenorth>it's like in India. Everyone agrees Indian food is best.
14:06<andythenorth>but get them in a room and they argue viciously about how it should be cooked :P
14:07<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I am 33% convinced that I should stop FIRS, declare it 1.0
14:07<andythenorth>then start a new industry set
14:07<andythenorth>I think economies are a bit of a sticking plaster on the whole concept
14:08<andythenorth>hmm
14:08<andythenorth>I also want to learn GS so I can script scenarios that take 1-3 hours to play
14:08<andythenorth>GS can be bound to specific newgrf via the scenario?
14:08<Eddi|zuHause>you can't cram "old" and "new" industries in the same set without economies
14:09<andythenorth>empirically you're correct :)
14:09<@Alberth>andythenorth: do they know what they like on supplies? (or is that where they disagree on?)
14:09<andythenorth>pretty much universally, people like being able to control primary production
14:10<andythenorth>after that, less agreement :P
14:10*andythenorth has ideas
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>i like distributing a cargo to many different destinations, which have an impact (i don't like distributing mail, due to that second part). but i dislike scheduling drop-by-drop, so i want a stockpile
14:12<andythenorth>I am considering 'just' making multiple industry newgrfs, each bound to a GS
14:13<andythenorth>I can probably implement it with one core python build script, and a package for each newgrf that over-rides base classes
14:13<andythenorth>all graphics etc can be global
14:13<andythenorth>behaviour can be locally over-ridden
14:14<andythenorth>then I put the kids to bed, and play 1 or 2 hours of challenge-driven gameplay
14:14<andythenorth>then I go to sleep, get up at 5.30am and do it all again :P
14:14<andythenorth>I stop worrying about multiplayer, or co-op gameplay, or realism or any of the other crap
14:15<andythenorth>FIRS goes 1.0 and I stop working on it
14:15<andythenorth>I get a lot of "don't change xyz" about FIRS, but not a lot of help maintaining or finishing
14:15<andythenorth>4 years is enough
14:16<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: do you actually play games? If so, how long do you play them for?
14:17<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the few times i play games, i either throw them away after a day, or i play them over several months
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14:18<@Alberth>my last game was with FISH for the first time, and a lot of water, I got upto 2020+ iirc. Otherwise mostly a day, about 25-30 game years
14:19<Eddi|zuHause>i have lots of games lying around that started in 1920 and stopped 1925-ish
14:19<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: mine go about 3 months :P
14:19<Eddi|zuHause>and only few games which actually reached 2010-ish
14:20<Eddi|zuHause>and i never reached 2050
14:20<Eddi|zuHause>only 2030 in some old TT games
14:20<andythenorth>what date do you start?
14:20<andythenorth>1920?
14:20<Eddi|zuHause>yes
14:20<@Alberth>1950, sometimes 1945
14:20<Eddi|zuHause>due to lack of early vehicle set
14:20<andythenorth>you need German?
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>it's what i'm most familar with
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>i tried UKRS
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>but it just doesn't have the same connection
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>my NARS game that i played on the USA map is one of the 1925-ish games :)
14:21<andythenorth>so in early games you also find a lack of trams, RVs etc?
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>yes
14:22<andythenorth>I was trying to support back to 1700-ish (DanMacK persuaded me)
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>that's why i suggested making the horses of eGRVTS as a separate grf
14:22<andythenorth>but now I'm not going earlier than 1870
14:22<andythenorth>FISH and HEQS are being setup for start 1870-1875
14:23<Eddi|zuHause>CETS is designed for 1870, 1920, 1950 and 1990 starts
14:23<andythenorth>makes sense
14:23<andythenorth>epochs
14:23<andythenorth>1870 provides vehicles which aren't agonisingly slow and small
14:23<Eddi|zuHause>but you can also start anywhere inbetween
14:23<andythenorth>1870 also means most heavy industry chains exist
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14:24<andythenorth>aluminium / plastics don't
14:24<andythenorth>oil, just about
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14:24<andythenorth>give or take some gameplay adjustments to reality
14:25<andythenorth>plastics isn't a FIRS chain anyway, it's just an industry type
14:26<andythenorth>it adds no new cargo transformations
14:26*andythenorth starts thinking about set as multiple linkgraphs, with each graph comprising a set of transforms between cargo types
14:26<andythenorth>probably doesn't help much :P
14:27<andythenorth>the question of removing industries then becomes
14:27<andythenorth>- does it eliminate a graph
14:28<andythenorth>- or eliminate certain directed links in the graph
14:28<andythenorth>opening industries then becomes:
14:28<andythenorth>- does it create a new graph
14:28<andythenorth>- or simply add links to the new node
14:29<andythenorth>where each node is a particular transform of cargo, not an industry type
14:29<andythenorth>so nothing -> COAL is a node
14:29<andythenorth>COAL -> STEEL is a node
14:29<andythenorth>hmm
14:29<andythenorth>that's not 100% right
14:29<andythenorth>but it's interesting
14:30<andythenorth>who's good at graphs? :P
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14:30<Rubidium>Edsger?
14:30<andythenorth>is he here :P
14:31<Rubidium>some people might say he is
14:31<andythenorth>if Dairy Farm and Sheep Farm both produce livestock (from nothing), one node or two?
14:34<andythenorth>probably the amounts are significant
14:34<andythenorth>more so when processing
14:34<andythenorth>8 in = 2 out and 8 in = 4 out are two different nodes
14:34<Rubidium>isn't livestock in tonnes, so it shouldn't matter that much I'd say
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14:35<andythenorth>items :)
14:36<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: so safe to say you want more dynamic gameplay? Less static?
14:37<Eddi|zuHause>i want more control over which parts are dynamic. don't just throw everything in there and pretend it's good gameplay
14:37<andythenorth>you want control at which point?
14:37<andythenorth>during the game?
14:37<andythenorth>setting up the game?
14:37<andythenorth>by choosing which newgrf?
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>one of the later two mostly
14:39<andythenorth>ok
14:39*andythenorth concurs
14:40<andythenorth>design smell: in default game, choosing climate is important for resulting gameplay
14:40<andythenorth>with FIRS, it's kind of irrelevant, and 'meh'
14:41<Eddi|zuHause>i think that's alright
14:41<andythenorth>I'm not suggesting tying to climate
14:41<andythenorth>more that original game contains 4 gameplay options
14:41<Eddi|zuHause>so? and FIRS contains a 5th gameplay option
14:42<andythenorth>so my point is, how about a 6th? :)
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>why does FIRS artificially need a 6th, 7th and 8th gameplay option if it doesn't want to?
14:42<andythenorth>I'm bored of it?
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>why mut that 6th option tie to climates?
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>*must
14:42<andythenorth>no that's not essential
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>that 6th option is exactly "economies"
14:44<andythenorth>rather than make separate, simpler newgrfs?
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>that's an implementation decision, not a design decision
14:44<andythenorth>k
14:44<andythenorth>I am feeling more constrained by implementation, but nvm
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>can make economies via parameter, or via separate (exclusive) newgrfs
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>or addon-newgrfs like "vectors"
14:45<andythenorth>so we already have plenty of ideas for economies wrt to industry and cargo inclusion
14:45<andythenorth>what about gameplay?
14:45<andythenorth>in my design for economies, most gameplay remains same
14:45<andythenorth>for testing and coding reasons
14:45<andythenorth>valid, or silly?
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>valid
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>maybe small variations
14:46<andythenorth>ok
14:46<andythenorth>examples?
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>for example the "graph": the "basic" economy could have few large farms, while the "agriculture" economy could have many small farms (with clustering)
14:47<andythenorth>so that totally changes required network topology
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>each setting a different focus on how to distribute supplies and gather the cargo for longer hauls
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>yes
14:48<andythenorth>so our primary design question is 'what network topologies does this encourage' ?
14:48<andythenorth>followed by "is it a fun narrative" ?
14:50<andythenorth>so one variation might indeed be handling of delivered supplies
14:50<Eddi|zuHause>let's start with 3 economies: "basic" - introducing the concept of supplies, but changing not a lot from original gameplay otherwise. "agriculture" - lots of small industries with a spread out network topology. "manufacturing" - very long chains of industries, hauling cargo back and forth, potentially for a feedback effect
14:51<Eddi|zuHause>imagine "manufacturing" like car suppliers and stuff
14:51<andythenorth>+1
14:52<andythenorth>industry closing / opening affects network topology. So part of the economy? Or a parameter (not favoured by me)
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>it really should be a parameter
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>but it would be better if the game offered it as difficulty setting
14:52<andythenorth>parameter because it's better? Or because people will whine?
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>vehicle sets don't forbid breakdowns just because the author hates them
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>it's a game setting like it should be
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>players can decide for themselves
14:54<andythenorth>breakdowns affect network topology?
14:54<Eddi|zuHause>most certainly
14:54<andythenorth>+1
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14:54<Eddi|zuHause>just browse the screenshot/savegame forums for layouts how to service depots effectively :)
14:55*andythenorth wonders idly, what if we stopped arsing about in newgrf, and provided a better open / close behaviour in game
14:56<andythenorth>it's such a common player request, to prevent closing
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>yes
14:56<andythenorth>and if done sanely, it could be exposed to GS :P
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>but then all the "yet another advanced setting" trolls come out
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>saying "it's already possible in NewGRF. won't be done"
14:57<andythenorth>horse has bolted
14:57<andythenorth>10 million advanced settings already
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14:58<andythenorth>can the trolls go away and write an industry newgrf
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>what frosch123 said earlier could be interesting, an "economy speed" setting. frequency of opening/closing independent from amount of industries
14:59<andythenorth>and also can the trolls write a GS-newgrf interface definition :P
15:00<@Alberth>good night
15:00<andythenorth>bye Alberth
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15:01<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: opening/closing would respect cb22 etc?
15:01<andythenorth>sounds like an alternative way to solve my industry opening problem :P
15:01<andythenorth>but that's a distraction
15:01<Eddi|zuHause>what exactly does cb22 do?
15:01<andythenorth>industry availability: no | probability
15:02<andythenorth>called when the game tries to generate an industry, or player funds
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>aha
15:03<Eddi|zuHause>i don't see why it wouldn't respect that...
15:04<andythenorth>I'm reading industry_cmd.cpp to see when industries are generated during game
15:04<andythenorth>can't find the call
15:04<andythenorth>there's a MonthlyLoop that handles how many are *needed*
15:04<andythenorth>but doesn't make the call to try and build them
15:05<andythenorth>closure is driven by ChangeIndustryProduction()
15:05<andythenorth>which is called monthly and [occasionally - can't figure out when]
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: CreateNewIndustryHelper?
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15:08<andythenorth>I don't think that's got the loop for 'generate industry during gameplay'?
15:08<andythenorth>IndustryDailyLoop
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>but you can check from where it's called
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>and then backwards
15:09<andythenorth> // Between 3% and 9% chance of creating a new industry
15:09<andythenorth>l2665
15:11<Eddi|zuHause>yes, _industry_builder.TryBuildNewIndustry();
15:12<andythenorth>so currently this is called every day
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15:12<andythenorth>and the requirements for num. industries are adjusted monthly, more or less in sync with industry closing + removing from map
15:12<Eddi|zuHause>no, it sums up industry_daily_change_counter until it tips over
15:12<andythenorth>ah
15:13<andythenorth>details I miss in C++ :|
15:13<andythenorth>l2647 I guess
15:15<Eddi|zuHause>so the game could track the return values of cb22, and if an industry becomes available, increase the industry counter temporarily
15:16<andythenorth>that more or less implements what I requested, differently :)
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>combine that with reserving one industry slot per unavailable industry
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>hm, that doesn't quite work
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>if an industry becomes available, and another unavailable at the same time, the number of reserved slots doesn't change
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>so no industry will be created
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>since it doesn't count the slots per-industry
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>which would be more complicated
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>when the industry is unavailable, it can also not predict the probability
15:19<andythenorth>that bit is complicated yes :P
15:20<andythenorth>I'm not sure that I'm wrong with my idea (I would do it in newgrf initially) of reserving slots at game start
15:20<andythenorth>so if 50 industries are required, but 10% of types not available yet, I only allow 45 to be built
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15:23<Eddi|zuHause>possibility: introduce a flag, so in cb22 you can return "disable | probability | force". then the game would build this industry despite no slots being available
15:24<Eddi|zuHause>if you can check for number of industries of same type during cb22
15:25<andythenorth>is 'force' covered by 'there must be at least one instance of this industry'?
15:25<andythenorth>there's something in the code about that, didn't understand it last night
15:25<andythenorth>I know that flag is supposed to prevent closing
15:25<andythenorth>but can't tell what it does during random generation
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>i don't really know either
15:26<andythenorth>not sure Alberth does either
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>but you could "force" more than one industry per map
15:26<andythenorth>I think when he tried to fix it he found some oddities
15:27<andythenorth>I like the idea
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>which would be necessary for farms on small maps
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>where the number of industry slots is usually significantly lower than the number of industry types
15:27<andythenorth>yes
15:28<andythenorth>for a 256x256 map, FIRS needs at least 'normal' industry setting
15:28<andythenorth>numof_industry_table
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>i think i played 128x256 with "high", and still got only one industry per type
15:29<andythenorth>maybe the game should query the newgrf for num types defined
15:29<andythenorth>then calculate the ratios for high, low etc
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>which makes farms rather annoying
15:29<andythenorth>very low = 10
15:30<andythenorth>which is fine for default temperate, with 10 types
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15:30<andythenorth>fails for Arctic interestingly
15:30<andythenorth>looks like default industries don't use the 'force one' flag
15:31<andythenorth>(Arctic has 11)
15:32<andythenorth>so
15:32<andythenorth>there are quite a number of interesting options here
15:32<andythenorth>how does 'economy speed' work for the player?
15:33<andythenorth>frosch123: ^ ?
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>i presume it changes industry_daily_increment. so you get fewer openings, not sure about closings
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>possibly the 256-tick callback could be delayed
15:34<andythenorth>I think we leave internal behaviour of newgrfs out of this pondering for now
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>breaking ECS in multiple places ;)
15:34<andythenorth>assume vanilla industries
15:34<V453000>ecs is broken itself already ;)
15:35<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't tried ECS in ages
15:35<andythenorth>ach, it's very hard doing industry sets, ECS gets unfairly reviewed
15:36<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: number of random industry changes/opening/closures
15:36<frosch123>number of calls to cb 35
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15:36<frosch123>only works if industries do not make "monthly" decisions
15:36<andythenorth>frosch123: what would you do with monthly prod change? [/me is baffled]
15:36<frosch123>i consider monthly crap :p
15:37<frosch123>it scales bad
15:37<andythenorth>oh
15:37<andythenorth>that explains something :P
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>what's cb35?
15:37<andythenorth>I consider monthly only sane route :P
15:37<andythenorth>this is why we have not been able to agree a fix to closure :P
15:38<frosch123>if you use monthly the number of events depend on the number of industries, so usually you have a self-enforcing system
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>i vaguely remember that ECS broke on some of the daylength patches, because the 256-tick callback was called on daylenght*256 ticks
15:38<frosch123>if industries tend to become more, they become way more
15:38<frosch123>if industries tend to close, they close faster the more they are
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15:38<frosch123>random change otoh is independent of total number of industries
15:38<frosch123>(though it behaves bad if there are very few industries on the map)
15:39<frosch123>thus economy speed would have to consider the desired industry density
15:40<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: that's is only a faulty implementation
15:40<frosch123>ecs accumulates cargo delivered in a month
15:40<frosch123>and then decides for an absolute production amount for the next month
15:41<frosch123>it then produced 1/8 of that planned amount, which fails if there are more than 8 production cycles
15:41<frosch123>it could be coded totally daylength agnostic, if it would use the day of the month
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>afair it relied on the tick counter
15:42<frosch123>and then produce (day of month)/31 * (planned amount) - (already produced this month)
15:45<andythenorth>so in case of monthly cb, prod change I would retain in FIRS
15:45<andythenorth>but closure could be delegated
15:46<andythenorth>I know they're tied together by the return values, but I would find a way to figure that out
15:46<frosch123>andythenorth: the problem are primary industries
15:46<andythenorth>because...?
15:46<frosch123>everyone seems to model them in some way, that they close when the production drops below some amount
15:46<NGC3982>Im kind of noticing something i don't feel the favour of.
15:47<NGC3982>Using the 2CC set, i notice that selecting engines due to anything but maximum speed is completely irrelevant to the result.
15:47<frosch123>and everyone makes production changes monthly and depend on servicing
15:47<NGC3982>Even in hard games, with very hilly terrain.
15:47<andythenorth>frosch123: isn't that just default behaviour?
15:48<frosch123>NGC3982: play nuts
15:48<frosch123>if you want a set that heads for gameplay/playability
15:48<NGC3982>I can't complain, of course. The numbers are realistic and i love the diversity of different engines
15:48<V453000>realistic :p
15:49<NGC3982>(At least in the first part of the game) :P
15:49<frosch123>diversity in 2cc set?
15:49<frosch123>i thought it only has mmu?
15:50*frosch123 bets V453000 has a highlight on nuts :p
15:50<NGC3982>frosch123: "mmu"?
15:50<frosch123>multiple units
15:50<V453000>no I just randomly read channels once upon a time :)
15:50<andythenorth>frosch123: so newgrf authors should never return 03 or 04  from monthly prod change?
15:51<andythenorth>is one idea?
15:51<V453000>I dont have any highlights in fact :)
15:51<NGC3982>V453000: Don't you agree? :/
15:51<frosch123>NGC3982: all those tgv, ice, stuff
15:51<frosch123>front/back engine with matching wagons in the middle
15:51<V453000>NGC3982: yes, it is realistic, I basically laugh at the word realistic where-ever used :p
15:51<NGC3982>frosch123: Yes. With diversity, i mean the great number of trains and numbers in what-ever-era-you-play-at-era.
15:51<frosch123>instead of some engine pulling a random selection of wagon
15:52<NGC3982>V453000: Hehe. Well, subjective relativity strikes lika SCUD in Bagdad.
15:52<NGC3982>frosch123: Ah, i see.
15:52<V453000>NGC3982: the general gameplay problem of 2cc set is that there are only like 4 strongest engines ... meaning you get one in 1920, second in 1936, third in 1970 and fourth in 2000, done
15:52<V453000>not what I call diversity :)
15:53<frosch123>andythenorth: monthly changes make every industry behave the same: so they all close at the same time, the number of industries directly affects the number of newspaper, ... and so on
15:53<NGC3982>V453000: Yes, and that may be the basis of my problem here.
15:53<frosch123>with random change, ottd controls the number of changes
15:53<andythenorth>frosch123: agreed
15:53<frosch123>and can balace it itself
15:53<andythenorth>I only use monthly because I don't trust the game
15:53<V453000>NGC3982: try nuts :) trains improve every 10 years at most
15:53<andythenorth>(for closure)
15:53<NGC3982>V453000: Oh, i see.
15:53<V453000>and there is always a choice
15:53*andythenorth checks code
15:53<frosch123>monthly is nice for production changes
15:53<frosch123>but it is crap for opening/closure
15:53*NGC3982 should start making his own train NewGRFs.
15:54<andythenorth>FIRS primaries appear to use the random change
15:54<frosch123>s/production changes/small production changes/
15:54<NGC3982>At least that's simple enough for Only-made-tutorial-GRF-NGC3982.
15:54<V453000>prepare to spend an awful lot of time :P
15:54<andythenorth>I haven't read all the code, but most closing in FIRS is delegated to 'let game sort it out'
15:55<NGC3982>V453000: Well, you guys inspire me.
15:55<NGC3982>I mean, look at andy.
15:55<NGC3982>I could never combine coding with kids.
15:55<V453000>yes that is incredible :)
15:55<andythenorth>it's easy, I just neglect them
15:55<NGC3982>;)
15:55<andythenorth>and I don't write much code either
15:56<V453000>lies
15:56<V453000>andy already taught kids to code and has them as slaves
15:56<NGC3982>andythenorth: Does the number of lines you write in code exceed the number of lines you write on IRC?
15:56<NGC3982>V453000: Well, someone has to make the animations.
15:57<andythenorth>frosch123: remove 03 and 04 as return values from cb35?
15:57<andythenorth>and instead provide an advanced setting that affects frequency of random prod change?
15:57<V453000>animations take 10x more time than coding on a train set for example
15:57-!-drac_boy [~drac_boy@modemcable133.8-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #openttd
15:58<drac_boy>hi
15:58<NGC3982>V453000: I know. I noticed that making a normal train is the simplest of coding.
15:58<NGC3982>Since you really don't do anything else but ..replace values.
15:58<andythenorth>make closure frequency player's decision, not newgrf authors (although newgrf could still return 03 / 04 etc to cb29)
15:58<V453000>well you do add some features from time to time, but once you add it for one train it is just copypaste, find and replace, done
15:59<andythenorth>make frequency option include 'none'
15:59<andythenorth>stop handling player requests for 'please stop industries closing'
15:59*NGC3982 still wants to make that TRON map.
15:59<andythenorth>remove parameters from FIRS, ECS etc for closure handling
15:59<frosch123>andythenorth: first fix default industries, might be easier :p
15:59<andythenorth>possibly also eliminate smooth / non-smooth economy setting
16:00<andythenorth>removing the smooth/not economy setting would erm...involve rewriting about 30% of industry_cmd.cpp
16:00<andythenorth>:P
16:00<andythenorth>frosch123: fix how?
16:02<frosch123>i foigot
16:02<andythenorth>:)
16:02<andythenorth>just move them to openttd.grf
16:02<andythenorth>strip most of the legacy code from industry_cmd.cpp, creating some sanity there
16:03<andythenorth>default to using them from openttd.grf if no other grf defines industry features (or such)
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>that's already a problem, because one GRF cannot disable industries introduced by another GRF
16:06-!-drac_boy [~drac_boy@modemcable133.8-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Quit: I'm done being in this room!]
16:06<andythenorth>heh, there's always something :)
16:06-!-drac_boy [~drac_boy@modemcable133.8-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #openttd
16:06*andythenorth wonders if removing the monthly prod change cb might be beneficial
16:07<drac_boy>hrm, weird router :|
16:07<andythenorth>I rely on that cb for setting multiple things iirc
16:10<andythenorth>industry spec is like a pushmepullyou
16:10<andythenorth>http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=pushmepullyou&oe=UTF-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=JbwmULuwGOmx0AWLoYGoCg&biw=1276&bih=668&sei=PLwmUOfZHoa90QXX7oCgCg
16:10<andythenorth>look at just one part, all seems sane
16:11<andythenorth>try and solve it in total, brain explodes
16:11*drac_boy hasn't had any problem reading the whole grf wiki before? :)
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16:15<andythenorth>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/raw/1648/
16:15<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: frosch123 ^ ?
16:16-!-Frankr [~chatzilla@cpc4-pres13-2-0-cust231.pres.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>a start would be, if newgrf says "close" on monthly callback, the game takes that as a suggestion, instead of blindly following it?
16:18<andythenorth>could be
16:18<andythenorth>'recommend' rather than 'require' close
16:19<andythenorth>game decides
16:19<andythenorth>newgrf is crippled wrt deciding whole economy, that is proven.
16:19<andythenorth>and making newgrf less crippled would cripple GS
16:21<drac_boy>btw having tried it for a short time just to find out about something before I'm wondering..is the extra zoom-in level meant only for 32bpp grfs? because everything looks so pixelated badly :)
16:21<andythenorth>2x is ok, 4x not
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: it has no relation to 32bpp. but it can't magically create new graphics for all existing stuff
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: you can make pure 8bpp GRFs for extra zoom in, but nobody did that yet
16:25<drac_boy>hm if a pixel is a fixed size how do you even make 8bpp gain more details without going into half pixels?
16:25*drac_boy thinks me is a little confused
16:25<andythenorth>you draw bigger sprites
16:27<andythenorth>yay
16:27<andythenorth>a FIRS game, with Dairies in 1870
16:27<drac_boy>wouldn't that then look too big in older ottd/patch builds .. maybe it'll be better if I hadn't asked about that extra zoom in the first place -_-
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: you provide a different image for each zoom level
16:28<Rubidium>drac_boy: I doubt those older builds will be able to recognise the file as a NewGRF
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>32bpp is not 3D/vector graphics, it's still pixels, just with more colours
16:31<drac_boy>Rubidium hmm so I guess its sorta like a grf fork perhaps
16:31<Rubidium>if Windows 8 is a fork of Windows 7, then yes
16:32<drac_boy>heh I was thinking more like eg trainset_old8.grf vs trainset_new8.grf
16:32<drac_boy>or something along that sort of naming
16:33<Rubidium>why would you do that?
16:34<drac_boy>anyway I guess the extra zoom-in could have one slight funny use ... giving someone that old low resolution dos appearance :p
16:35<Rubidium>just run at 640x480 and you're almost there
16:36<andythenorth>that's what I'm doing
16:36<andythenorth>it's about same size as 2x zoom
16:36<andythenorth>is there an irc-client inside the game?
16:36<andythenorth>I keep having to leave full screen to talk :P
16:36<drac_boy>andythenorth window it :p
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>there's an ingame chat, and autopilot as a relay :)
16:37<drac_boy>heh
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>coop people used to do that
16:38<andythenorth>plausible
16:38<andythenorth>imagine making this channel available in game by default to all players
16:38<andythenorth>perhaps not :P
16:40<drac_boy>I'll rather not..especially when you don't want to mix player chatter with irc chat :)
16:41<drac_boy>could you imagine reading 'you mind moving that bridge at berlon?' in here? :)
16:44<andythenorth>flat map
16:44<andythenorth>let's see if I complain about rivers less
16:44<andythenorth>nope
16:44<andythenorth>docks are still unusably stupid with rivers
16:44<andythenorth>don't make me excavate half the landscape to unload my ships
16:45<drac_boy>?
16:46<NGC3982>Gosh darnit.
16:47<NGC3982>ECS is hard.
16:47<andythenorth>http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7057/6848072241_80f08a895e_z.jpg
16:47<andythenorth>http://www.nbsanity.me.uk/images/Cruising%202005/Cruising%202005-Images/14.jpg
16:47<drac_boy>NGC3982 I always only play with a few ecs vectors .. and never ever touch chemical/machinery :|
16:48<andythenorth>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b0/Llangollen_canal_wharf.jpg
16:48<drac_boy>NGC3982 and mm I never really liked parts of PBI .. one major problem was that the steel mill could not recognize when a map had too much coal but little iron ore otherwise
16:49<andythenorth>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/Cromford_Canal_Wharf_(cafe).jpg
16:49<drac_boy>meaning soon your coal trains eventually gets locked out
16:49<andythenorth>^^ simple river and canal docks
16:49<NGC3982>drac_boy: Yeah.
16:49<NGC3982>It becomes really, really hard when you scale it up.
16:49<NGC3982>But i guess that's a good thing.
16:49<drac_boy>NGC3982 ECS's behaviour was a bit better.. it wouldn't explictly need the ore
16:49<NGC3982>It's a real serious co-op venture.
16:50<drac_boy>so you could do 300 tonnes of coal but only 160 tonnes of ore .. and it never blocks out
16:50<drac_boy>of course sometimes I hate the ever-varying stockpile cap a little bit but meh :p
16:50<Rubidium>http://rbijker.net/openttd/qed.png <- I must update subversion I guess
16:50<drac_boy>NGC3982 co-op has nothing to do with lack of ore supplies on the map in first place? :)
16:51<NGC3982>drac_boy: Sure it does. It's not like you can make a map 100% compatible with all it's industries.
16:51<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3179/river_dock.png
16:52<drac_boy>NGC3982 yeah but at least you could not explictly set an absolute 1-to-1 input ratio either? :)
16:52<andythenorth>^^ not simple, looks stupid. Costs 5,570; 1 tile tram station in this game costs 820. Too much disparity
16:52<drac_boy>NGC3982 which of that reminds me I still haven't figured out yet how to make an industry treat input #2 as a boost to input #1
16:52<andythenorth>oh, that's with FISH 2 resetting canal costs as well
16:52<drac_boy>oh well
16:52<NGC3982>drac_boy: Not really. :p
16:53<andythenorth>without the canal cost reset, that dock would cost 31,940
16:55<drac_boy>anyway before I get distracted some more by NGC3982 I meant to ask .. I know theres version check and other things but was there anything that could let you load one blob of code for patch but a different blob for ottd? or is two seperate grfs the best way to go yet
16:55<andythenorth>he
16:55<andythenorth>I can't build CHIPS stations for eye candy
16:55<andythenorth>no trains available :P
16:55<drac_boy>andythenorth you can
16:55<andythenorth>no, I can't
16:55<drac_boy>just toggle that 'build even if no trains present' option
16:55<drac_boy>unless its oddly been removed
16:56*drac_boy forgot the exact name tho
16:56<andythenorth>doesn't do what you think it does
16:56<andythenorth>or there's another one somewhere
16:56<drac_boy>andythenorth no? I've never had a problem using it to build stations even if theres nothing in the buy list to purchase
16:57<andythenorth>maybe there are two settings?
16:57<drac_boy>perhaps
16:57<drac_boy>tell you what, let me check
16:58<andythenorth>perhaps canrail sets railtypes with availability dates
16:59<drac_boy>'Disable infrastructure building when no suitable vehicles are available..' under Interface
16:59<andythenorth>yeah, tried it :)
16:59<andythenorth>probly a railtype shenanigan
17:01<drac_boy>oh well, have fun anyway :)
17:01<Rubidium>drac_boy: is http://rbijker.net/openttd/dos_attack_r24463.png enough of a DOS appearance?
17:02<andythenorth>frosch123: how about industry closing in proportion to number of vehicles, or industries served on map or such?
17:02<andythenorth>I want secondary industry closing on
17:02<drac_boy>heh Rubidium the graphics are too smooth for dos :p
17:02<andythenorth>but with an 1870 start, I only have small trams available
17:02<andythenorth>most of my map will be wasteland if I turn on closing :P
17:02<Rubidium>drac_boy: that's not true, the original DOS transport tycoon deluxe has the same graphics and resolution
17:03<drac_boy>I'm guessing thats the network-broken build of ottd tho right?
17:03<Rubidium>yep
17:04<Rubidium>it's about 99% gimmick (+-1%)
17:05<drac_boy>heh well if they ever get the network stack working in some way I might be able to split my time with more ottd multiplaying fun :)
17:05<Rubidium>I'm not sure whether such a computer would be capable enough
17:06<drac_boy>Rubidium it could actually
17:06<Rubidium>mostly because the newer the (video) hardware, the more likely it doesn't work
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>old computers have network cards too ;)
17:06<drac_boy>thats kinda like saying basic vga doesn't even work on a modern card anymore even although thats exactly what the bios uses to display itself with?
17:07<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause yeah.. 8bit 10baseT network card anyone?
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>i remember we tried networking in DOS and failed horribly
17:07<Rubidium>drac_boy: very basic yes, the stuff in between... not really
17:07<Rubidium>for example, most recent video cards don't have hardware accelerated 8 bits palette animation
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>i once had CIV 1 crash on me horribly. but the palette animation still worked :)
17:09<Rubidium>anyhow, if you're interested enough... feel free to add DOS network capabilities
17:09<drac_boy>Rubidium I dunno..its not the kind of network stack I know about (nor windows' neither)
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>we played MOO2 network multiplayer in dosbox
17:10<NGC3982>MOO2?
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>Master Of Orion 2
17:11<NGC3982>Oh
17:11<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause I wouldn't have any problem playing ottd/dos over network neither (the emulator has full serial and ethernet passthrough's) ... but as it is I can't see any point installing non-multiplayer ottd when I already have the patch. to our own :P
17:11<drac_boy>I think I've seen some artworks for orion
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>too bad they screwed up MOO3
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>that was one of my biggest disappointments in gaming history
17:15<drac_boy>oh btw is there any explaination of the newobject thing anywhere?
17:15*drac_boy only could find the grfspec things but thats not so helpful
17:16<Eddi|zuHause>there's plenty of stuff in the forum
17:18<@Terkhen>good night
17:20<@Yexo>drac_boy: what kind of explanation are you looking for?
17:20<andythenorth>lo Yexo
17:20<@Yexo>hi andy
17:21-!-Ryton [~Ryton-@94-226-98-24.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:25<drac_boy>yexo mm just like more beyond just how to code it .. but I guess maybe I'll just leave it blank on the project table
17:26<drac_boy>brb
17:27<@Yexo>drac_boy: Like how to use it? Just like any other NewGRF. What you can do with it? Use your imagination.
17:40<NGC3982>isnt the 1.2.1 version of OpenTTD playable in OSX directly by download?
17:41<NGC3982>Mac OS X 10.3.9-10.5 (universal build)
17:42<NGC3982>Doesn't that come with a graphical set?
17:42<+glx>probably not
17:42<andythenorth>bye
17:42-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
17:42<+glx>but I think it should propose to download it on first start
17:43<+glx>(unless it's still not implemented in OSX version)
17:43<@Yexo>was that ever implemented for osx?
17:44<frosch123>i am quite sure it is not
17:45<__ln__>i have a question but nevermind, i cannot phrase it politely.
17:46<drac_boy>guess that works then yexo
17:46*drac_boy actually would be interested in a particular japan copy of TT just for a bit of giggles tbh
17:47<Eddi|zuHause>what would be the point?
17:48<drac_boy>playing some basic maps for short times and the other part being not needing to run it in emulator on the contrast
17:48<frosch123>i assume switching ottd to japanese is not the point
17:49<drac_boy>frosch123 mm no its not
17:49<drac_boy>let me see if theres even any screenshot of it online one moment..
17:49<frosch123>oh, is it that 3d version on some console?
17:50<__ln__>what's the platform-specific part of the downloader thing?
17:50<frosch123>i think i saw something like that
17:50<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: the gui to display it?
17:52<frosch123>__ln__: remove the !defined(__APPLE__) part from bootstrap_gui
17:52<frosch123>and try
17:52<frosch123>compile and run
17:56<__ln__>so freetype is the problem, or what? (i don't have my apple here right now, just reading the code)
17:59<frosch123>quite possible that automatic font detection was never implemented for osx either
18:00<__ln__>and anyway, what's the point of making everyone download the graphics, instead of shipping at least something with the application?
18:00<drac_boy>hmm odd I'm sure I had recalled seeing some screenshots before but oh well frosch123 http://www.onlinegamesdatenbank.de/index.php?section=title&titleid=3274 check which one was released in 1996, thats the one :)
18:04-!-flaa [~flaa@188.141.45.124] has quit [Quit: leaving]
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: traffic for updates
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: between 1.2.0 and 1.2.1, or 1.2.2rc1 and 1.2.2, probably nothing changed in OpenGFX, so no point in downloading it again
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: plus you are not forced to download anything if you already have the original graphics
18:06<__ln__>what would Stallman say?
18:07<Eddi|zuHause>how would i know? i never met the guy...
18:09<__ln__>me neither
18:10<__ln__>i have another question, though i think i'm going to regret it
18:11<__ln__>does the downloader actually need a gui? can't it just download the stuff it needs silently?
18:13-!-sla_ro|master [slaco@78.96.213.97] has quit [Quit: DANGER sla.ro is OFFLINE DANGER]
18:14<Eddi|zuHause>no, it must ask the player to download something. it cannot do it silently (unless you introduce a parameter or something)
18:14<__ln__>why must it ask?
18:14<Eddi|zuHause>because!
18:15<__ln__>think about the children!
18:15<drac_boy>heh such a pointless debate
18:15<V453000>Xd
18:16*drac_boy wonders whats with V453000's idea of not talking for two hours then suddenly doing so
18:16<drac_boy>:p
18:16<__ln__>90% of modern software downloads something without asking nor telling the user.
18:16<TrueBrain>which we call spyware
18:16<TrueBrain>or mallware
18:16<TrueBrain>or trojans
18:16<TrueBrain>or botnets
18:16<TrueBrain>these are BAD software
18:16<__ln__>or spotify
18:16<__ln__>or firefox
18:16<drac_boy>truebrain or the % of people that just blindly click 'next' without ever noticing the pre-checked checkbox for toolbar addons :)
18:17<TrueBrain>drac_boy: ugh, I hate that software
18:17<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: all "sane" programs ask this during installation, whether "autoupdate" and similar should be enabled
18:17<drac_boy>TrueBrain just uncheck the box .. problem solved .. but mm yeah go figure either way
18:17<TrueBrain>drac_boy: requires reading ... which I dislike :P
18:17<Eddi|zuHause>i never understood the point of "toolbars"
18:17<drac_boy>TrueBrain then don't use a computer :)
18:18<TrueBrain>drac_boy: sorry, I can't read you, you are breaking up
18:18<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: money
18:18<drac_boy>TrueBrain nope, its you
18:18<+glx>silly you have to check the "I agree..." but ads stuff is prechecked
18:18<V453000>isnt there missing the feature "download all" for one of the reasons to know exactly what you are downloading and read the damn list at least? :)
18:19<TrueBrain>ugh, too many people hit select all and download it all
18:19<TrueBrain>its like killing the server or something :P
18:19<V453000>:)
18:19<TrueBrain>I cannot blame people for doing so ... it is not like there is some kind of real rating to the files
18:19<TrueBrain>so ... all sounds better than none
18:20<Eddi|zuHause>did we ever agree on a rating method?
18:20<TrueBrain>nope
18:20<TrueBrain>many ideas
18:20<TrueBrain>not something that seems practical
18:20<TrueBrain>but, in all fairness, the current method is one of the worst of the posibilities :P
18:21<Eddi|zuHause>it'd have to be something that can be done from within the game
18:21<TrueBrain>I still think that presets, and rating of those, are the only realistic way
18:21<drac_boy>don't forget something with some sort of control against mass rating
18:21<TrueBrain>optimal, we would just snoop all clients to see what they run
18:21<TrueBrain>and show what is most commonly used
18:21<TrueBrain>but I so fucking hate snooping software
18:21<TrueBrain>(and I am talking to you Minecraft)
18:21<drac_boy>you'll have to pass that through the privacy acts actually truebrain
18:21<TrueBrain>opt-in ffs, not opt-out :(
18:21<TrueBrain>drac_boy: no, you don't
18:21<TrueBrain>that is just bullshit, sorry :)
18:22<drac_boy>TrueBrain good luck not getting charged then .. because it IS privacy
18:22<TrueBrain>that is why so many software does it .....
18:22<drac_boy>truebrain name me one software that actually checks your hd
18:22<drac_boy>(excluding av)
18:22<TrueBrain>your HD? wtf are you talking about now?
18:24<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: the main problem always remains, I guess, that one might like one set a lot, and the other another ... which rates better? What is fair? So hard to get something real for it ...
18:24<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: this origin thingie had that in its license "we may search your HDD for illegal copies of games"
18:25<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: google had that they could store screenshots of the pages you visited for optimizations :P
18:25<TrueBrain>(chrome)
18:26<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause well if its coded to only specifically look for its own app and not do a broad search ... and the user knew of it .. I wouldn't complain :)
18:26<TrueBrain>you should complain
18:26<TrueBrain>ifI can't do what ever the fuck I want on my own machine ......
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: no, it specifically was meant to look for ALL games
18:27<Eddi|zuHause>or at least all EA games
18:27<Eddi|zuHause>or something
18:27<Eddi|zuHause>which is like 50% of all games ever created
18:27<TrueBrain>anyway, drac_boy, you still didn't explain how you got to 'checks your hd' from snooping user uses?
18:28<drac_boy>truebrain .. you already mentioned it .. 'client...what they run'
18:29<frosch123>TrueBrain: we could have an official jury for rating :p
18:29<TrueBrain>you might want to apply such comments to an OpenTTD env, not a computer ......
18:29<drac_boy>frosch123 sounds a lot better
18:29<TrueBrain>frosch123: same issue :D
18:29<TrueBrain>drac_boy: ofc, what I meant, is to keep track the grfs people use, which is very much unrelated to what runs on a computer ......
18:29<TrueBrain>we want to know how people use OpenTTD, not their computer
18:29<frosch123>depends on who it consists of :p
18:30<TrueBrain>we track servers, but ..... our multiplayer uses is rather low :P
18:30<drac_boy>truebrain...doesn't matter... its still on hd so that falls under private useage
18:30<TrueBrain>euh, sure
18:30<TrueBrain>that is bullshit, but sure :)
18:30<TrueBrain>under that idea, multiplayer games are impossible
18:30<drac_boy>tell that to EU court .. and it wouldn't be their first case
18:31<TrueBrain>so ... if you send an email with an attachment to your friend, that is a violation of your privacy?
18:31<TrueBrain>after all, you never told that your browser is allowed to read your HD?
18:31<drac_boy>nope..you intentionally wanted to give the attachment so its no-issue
18:32<TrueBrain>so now we talk about intentionally or not .. okay, that is interesting
18:33<TrueBrain>so, if you play Assassins Creed
18:33<TrueBrain>2
18:33<TrueBrain>savegames are stored 'in the cloud'
18:33<TrueBrain>that is a violation of your privacy?
18:33<TrueBrain>I never wanted it to do that
18:33<TrueBrain>I never got told it would do that
18:33<drac_boy>only if the savegame had any personal info in it
18:33<TrueBrain>so newgrfs have personal info in it?
18:33<V453000>man my network is my personal info
18:34<Eddi|zuHause>of course the savegame has personal info in it. i made it personally.
18:34<TrueBrain>it tells a lot about you, a savegame
18:34<drac_boy>V453000 btw whats the meaning of the number 453000 anyway?
18:34<V453000>it is a rewriting of my name?
18:35<V453000>Vasek is my non-formal name .. transcribe it into numbers and you got that shit
18:35<V453000>im kind of surprised I havent seen it anywhere else yet
18:35<+glx>oh smart
18:36<V453000>everybody calls me V instead anyway :)
18:36<drac_boy>oh heh ok :)
18:38<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: btw, much worse than NewGRFs it is with AIs
18:38<TrueBrain>but I guess we can just use a classic rating there?
18:38<TrueBrain>maybe ingame ask after 10 years of playing: how do you like this AI?
18:38<V453000>are the AIs just historical or does anyone actually use them?
18:39<TrueBrain>euh .. how long haven't you played OpenTTD? :)
18:39<V453000>TrueBrain: most people alt tab constantly so that message would have to be there for long :D
18:39<drac_boy>V453000 I never could understand their stupidity so I always play with zero ai tbh
18:39<V453000>few seconds ... but I never used AIs except a few tries
18:39<TrueBrain>V453000: with NoAI, people use it
18:39<frosch123>TrueBrain: for ais we can use a quite objective rating: let them run for 10 years, and check whether they crash
18:39-!-kais58_ [~kais58@host-92-22-209-35.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:39<TrueBrain>we have no details on how much, ofc
18:39<frosch123>that seems to filter half of them
18:39<TrueBrain>frosch123: lolz
18:39<V453000>mhm :)
18:39<drac_boy>but once in a while I might not mind if a scenario has one or two ai companies preloaded .. because I know I'll drive them bankrupt in a while :p
18:39<TrueBrain>you remind me of the tournament system I had :P
18:40<drac_boy>although one of these default scenario is badly broken...
18:40<+glx>frosch123: add a save/load cycle too :)
18:40<TrueBrain>would be a good way indeed, to just rate them tournament style :P
18:40<drac_boy>british map .. and only a few months later the ai company wants to remove a network but it can't finish that due to stuck trains on one-way tracks
18:40<frosch123>TrueBrain: except for the exceptions :p
18:40<drac_boy>I forgot the name of that map tho
18:40<frosch123>like those ais which are not meant to compete
18:40<TrueBrain>frosch123: hmmmmmm
18:40<TrueBrain>so .. human rating :P
18:41<frosch123>because they only build roads for the player, or only build eyecandy roadvehicels
18:41<TrueBrain>we have those AIs?
18:41<TrueBrain>dammit, I don't like those :P
18:41<frosch123>there is a pre-gs ai which connects all cities, and the goes to sleep
18:41<TrueBrain>GS, yeah, I expected nothing less
18:41<TrueBrain>I did my best to make it hard, but ... :P
18:42<frosch123>and there are at least two ais, who build roadvehicles with zero running cost (provided by a special grf) just to make roads looks busy
18:42<TrueBrain>haha
18:42<TrueBrain>kewl
18:42<frosch123>(no busses or trucks, but other cars)
18:42<TrueBrain>that is nice :)
18:42<TrueBrain>so ...... AI rating is hard too
18:42<TrueBrain>owh happy days
18:42<V453000>if you use AIs for bankrupting them then they should be able to talk and rage
18:42<frosch123>TrueBrain: anyway, an exact rating does not matter
18:42<TrueBrain>no, but some kind of scaling would be nice
18:43<frosch123>it would just be nice if constantly crashing ais, or broken scenarios could be flagged somehow
18:43<NGC3982>"Scheiße! Im going bancrupt!"
18:43<NGC3982>? ;)
18:43<TrueBrain>now all AIs are <N users pressed Select All since upload>
18:43<TrueBrain>frosch123: I agree
18:43<TrueBrain>so ... when I manage to merge out the old VM, we can setup a test machine which does those tests
18:43<TrueBrain>and mark AIs which crash
18:43<TrueBrain>good start at least
18:43<TrueBrain>same goes for GS
18:44<frosch123>hmm... good point
18:44<frosch123>i could hack ottd into something which checks scenarios for broken grf configs
18:44<frosch123>i.e. check whether vehicles are available, and whether all cargos can be transported by something
18:44<TrueBrain>haha, also a nice idea :)
18:46<TrueBrain>doesnt really help with NewGRFs ofc
18:47<TrueBrain>but at least it is nice to give some quality :P
18:47<V453000>I still think that the best quality is TerraGenesis :) best scenario
18:48<V453000>or hell even the original generator
18:48<TrueBrain>I strongly disagree
18:48<TrueBrain>let me tell you why
18:48<TrueBrain>http://devs.openttd.org/~truebrain/mapgen/old/image018.png
18:48<TrueBrain>http://devs.openttd.org/~truebrain/mapgen/old/image016.png
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18:49<V453000>that is some sort of heightmap I guess
18:49<TrueBrain>yup
18:49<TrueBrain>my old old mapgen
18:49<V453000>doesnt that make most of the map rather flat?
18:49<TrueBrain>how do you mean?
18:50<V453000>like when you put on Very Smooth with variety distribution
18:50<V453000>opposed to rough without it
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18:50<TrueBrain>The Netherlands and Germany are flat
18:50<TrueBrain>not much you can do about that :P
18:50<V453000>well yeah but that is boring to play
18:50<V453000>flat maps are all the same
18:50<TrueBrain>then pick another country :P
18:51<TrueBrain>just point being, I love those maps :D
18:51<TrueBrain>make good scenarios :P
18:51<V453000>I think the best scenario is random map :)
18:51<TrueBrain>http://devs.openttd.org/~truebrain/mapgen/mapgen_srtm_3_1200.png
18:51<TrueBrain>I love the details
18:51<TrueBrain>it is amasing
18:51<TrueBrain>works poorly in OpenTTD
18:52<V453000>it is nice to look at. :)
18:52<TrueBrain>yeah; sadly a project that never can finish
18:52<TrueBrain>there is no database with rivers and lakes that is "closed"
18:52<TrueBrain>(lakes "leak" water :P)
18:53<V453000>:D
18:53<V453000>wait I thought that thing is generated
18:53<TrueBrain>it is
18:53<V453000>why database with rivers/.. then
18:53<TrueBrain>ah, hmm
18:54<TrueBrain>mapgen does:
18:54<TrueBrain>SRTM 90m information for height
18:54<TrueBrain>then .. how was the database called
18:54<TrueBrain>is put over it for country lines etc
18:54<TrueBrain>(like 016)
18:54<V453000>ah right
18:54<V453000>I see
18:54<TrueBrain>but that doesn't give you rivers and lakes etc
18:54<TrueBrain>just heights
18:54<TrueBrain>ah, VMAP0 it is called btw
18:54<TrueBrain>so VMAP0 also has lakes and rivers
18:54<TrueBrain>which I render over it
18:54<TrueBrain>but you need to fill them
18:54<TrueBrain>as they only have borders
18:54<V453000>uhm, so what do you actually generate when you have the original map? :D
18:55<TrueBrain>and VMAP0 is of such poor quality ...
18:55<TrueBrain>what do you mean?
18:55<V453000>well you have the country lines, and height lines?
18:55<V453000>doesnt matter :)
18:55<TrueBrain>well, the height is a matrix
18:55<TrueBrain>country is a closed curve
18:56<TrueBrain>so with SRTM alone you can do a lot of cool stuff, but without rivers and lakes, it looks silly :P
18:56<V453000>guess I will just go have a game with original generator :P
18:56<TrueBrain>haha
18:56<TrueBrain>use TGP ffs :P
18:57<V453000>I use it mostly, but I love original generator too :)
18:57<TrueBrain>I never did :P
18:57<V453000>I figured :D
19:00-!-kais58 [~kais58@host-92-22-146-48.as13285.net] has joined #openttd
19:00<TrueBrain>*bored*
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19:03<TrueBrain>RAID-sync is not even 50% done ... it is been running for 24h :P
19:03<TrueBrain>how do you mean, OpenTTD server is using lots of I/O on its own :D
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19:08<Eddi|zuHause>ok, audiosurf gets boring very quickly if you have a song with a long quiet stretch :)
19:08<TrueBrain>did you just really say that? :P
19:08<V453000>:D
19:09-!-TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has quit [Quit: Hugs to all]
19:09<drac_boy>heh
19:09<Eddi|zuHause>i mean it wasn't actually silent, just more quiet than the rest of the song. and there was nothing happening for like a minute
19:09<TrueBrain>wrong song, I say
19:10<V453000>a good song must be always loud.
19:10<Eddi|zuHause>yes. but you realize that only afterwards :p
19:10<TrueBrain>leason learnt I say :P
19:10<drac_boy>just wondering but how do you get hosted websites like eg at users.tt-forums.net/danmack/index.html
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19:11<Eddi|zuHause>really challenging was a song that had slow and fast sequences... you just calmed down and the next fast sequence starts :)
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19:12<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: you have to sleep with orudge
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19:12<V453000>I only played that game when I was completely drunk so I cant really tell much :)
19:12<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: lol, perfect timeout of orudge :D
19:12<Eddi|zuHause>:)
19:12<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause and why? :P
19:12<TrueBrain>V453000: so you play it always?
19:12<drac_boy>truebrain heh :)
19:12<TrueBrain>such an easy joke
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19:12<V453000>:D
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19:20<drac_boy>well Eddi|zuHause he's back :p
19:20<Eddi|zuHause>what do i care?
19:21<TrueBrain>you had to sleep with him, not he
19:21<drac_boy>did you want to take the bed instead? :)
19:21*drac_boy has my own anyway
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19:51<NGC3982>bah.
19:52<drac_boy>hm? :)
19:53<NGC3982>Im too tired.
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20:57<Wolf01>'night
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22:16<boomslang>thanks, dev team
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---Logclosed Sun Aug 12 00:00:11 2012