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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-08-13

---Logopened Mon Aug 13 00:00:15 2012
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01:56<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I had the idea that industry grfs might also ship a metadata file
01:56<andythenorth>config file format or such, providing each industry's labour requirement, type of industry etc
01:56<andythenorth>*not* in the grf, by design
01:57<andythenorth>GS would be able to use it. GS authors would also be able to substitute a modified metadata file
01:58<andythenorth>might be a stinky idea, don't know. But I think some kind of indirection is needed to do anything interesting.
02:02<telanus>morrrrrning
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02:20<Phazorx>morning
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03:09<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: what would a meta-file achieve that a newgrf property can't?
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03:14<NGC3982>Morning, people and aliens.
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03:44<TrueBrain>how did you know I was an alien?
03:44<TrueBrain>that is suppose to be a secret dammit
03:46*NGC3982 actually refered to PM but thanks for the new information.
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03:52<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: GS author / scenario author can't modify the newgrf to suit their purposes
03:52<andythenorth>doesn't require maintaining the newgrf tools to understand new props?
03:52<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds like a horrible idea
03:52<andythenorth>:)
03:55<__ln__>good morning all and the swedes
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03:58<dihedral>hello
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05:26<@Terkhen>good morning
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05:35<telanus1>morning
05:40<@Terkhen>hi peter1138 and telanus1
05:40<@peter1138>Hi Hi
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05:55<__ln__>http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2185494/Olympics-2012-Parkinsons-sufferer-Mark-Worsfold-54-arrested-police-smiling-cycling-road-race.html
06:02<Eddi|zuHause>ooold!
06:11<szaman>let me guess, he doesn't have facebook account? :]
06:14<Eddi|zuHause>i don't have a facebook account...
06:15<szaman>aren't you afraid?
06:17<Eddi|zuHause>i'm afraid of facebook
06:17<szaman>and you're not afraid of CIA?
06:18<Eddi|zuHause>i'm more afraid of facebook than of CIA
06:18<Markk>Same here.
06:18<szaman>well, me too :]
06:18<Markk>Because we don't live in the US and A.
06:18<szaman>we're all americans today
06:19<Markk>:)
06:19<Eddi|zuHause>well, technically, the CIA can't get active within the USA, only outside
06:19<Markk>oh
06:19<Markk>That's true.
06:19<Eddi|zuHause>that's what they have FBI and NSA for
06:19<Markk>And they collect a huge amount of data about us anyway, don't they?
06:19<szaman>facebook is active worldwide, so CIA
06:20<Markk>Eddi|zuHause: Exactly, through NSA.
06:21<drush>omg facebook
06:21<drush>I already have enough automated telemarketers calling me during work hours
06:22<drush>I don't need Turdenberg to sell my dox to anyone more
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06:25<drac_boy>hi
06:25<drush>hi
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06:34<drac_boy>how're you drush?
06:34<drush>pretty good, advancing the build, but not there yet
06:35<drush>you?
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06:37<drac_boy>heh
06:37<drac_boy>doing ok
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06:44<drac_boy>thinking about maybe working a bit on the grf this week but will have to see
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07:21<NGC3982>What kind of country still allows automated telemarketing?
07:25<__ln__>in what way automated?
07:25<szaman>in poland sometimes phone rings, you answer, and then you wait for caller, i don't know anyone who waited enough to hear the caller :P
07:31<@peter1138>Got to love IO wait. Got an 8 core 8GB machine crawling due to an rsync...
07:33<szaman>IO to/from disk?
07:34<szaman>or net
07:34<@peter1138>IO to disk.
07:34<@peter1138>Network doesn't block other stuff.
07:35<szaman>there must be something wrong with the driver
07:35<szaman>or, you use 2.x linux kernel :]
07:36<@peter1138>No, it's just slow disks.
07:36<Warod>why do you use slow disks!? ;P
07:36<szaman>maybe this is rsync to tapes :]
07:36<@peter1138>While having a huge block of data to write, it'll be slower loading data off it, of course.
07:38<@peter1138>Warod, because they're 2TB drives, and, if they exist, 15k SAS versions of those will be $lots.
07:39<Warod>Well, if you're using slow drives on purpose, I see no point complaining about it. ;)
07:39<NGC3982>__ln__: I don't know, but i guess drush refered to autodialer systems.
07:40<@peter1138>I'm not :-)
07:40<Warod>I suffer from small HDD space on my laptop on purpose.. Because I can live with 120 GB of HDD on my laptop. But NOT with waiting stuff to happen all the time.
07:40<@peter1138>Just idly mentioning.
07:40<szaman>Warod: it wasn't complaining, it was expresing love :]
07:40<@peter1138>FWIW, the machine is overspecced CPU & RAM wise as that's what I had available...
07:40<Warod>^^
07:40<@peter1138>Warod, then you want SSD?
07:41<Warod>I have an SSD. :)
07:41<@peter1138>:-)
07:41<Warod>Windows VM boots in like... 10 seconds. :>
07:41<@peter1138>And yeah, I know having the OS on the 2TB drives as well as the data is a bit silly, but, hey, there are only 2 drive slots.
07:41<@peter1138>Normally you'd have a couple of small fast drives for the OS and delegate the rest to a SAN.
07:42<Warod>If this MBP was my own, I'd throw out the optical drive and put second HDD in.
07:42<@peter1138>heh
07:42<Warod>But that'd ruin the warranty, so...
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08:56<@Belugas>hello
08:57<telanus>hi
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10:37<agaran>hello, i patched 1.2.1 with acs patch (with some effort it applied), but now it complains that savefiles are broken, how i can figure why as patch itself didnt added anything to savefiles at least not from looking into sources unless settings.ini changes change savefiles
10:38<Eddi|zuHause>yes they do
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10:38<agaran>s/acs/atc/ one letting second train to slowdown to speed of first train to eliminate bad looking start/stop sequence when faster train follow slow one
10:38<agaran>Eddi|zuHause: is that possible to fix it somehow?
10:39<Eddi|zuHause>you can make it load your old savegames, but savegames you make with this version will (probably) never work in a newer version with or without the patch
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>to do that, you have to increase SAVEGAME_VERSION (in saveload.cpp or so) and put that new version in the "from" field of the added setting
10:40<agaran>i see, blah, so in order to get anything useable in future i need to get patch put to release somehow or forget
10:42<Eddi|zuHause>it is theoretically possible to make this more flexible, so with some work you can update the version without losing your savegames, but this is way more complicated
10:42<agaran>so any patch that causes changes in settings.ini ruins this?
10:43<Eddi|zuHause>yes
10:43<agaran>so whole point of patching goes /dev/null for me then, unless local copy for toying moment or two.. bad
10:44<agaran>anyway that train slow to speed of previous one works fine on release (plus/minus patch aplying by hand when necesary)
10:45<Eddi|zuHause>unfortunately, the whole setting system is only prepared for linear development
10:45<Eddi|zuHause>it's not optimal, but it's what we got
10:45-!-Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
10:45<agaran>sure i understand
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10:46<agaran>just hoped there is workaround for that
10:47<Eddi|zuHause>that's why my level crossing patch has no setting change intentionally
10:47<Eddi|zuHause>even though it could use one
10:48<agaran>i see, so forcing it always-on fixes problem by eliminating settings?
10:48<agaran>setting is used to enable/disable this feature
10:49<Eddi|zuHause>yes
10:49<agaran>ok, thats way to go then for me :-)
10:49<agaran>thanks
10:49<Eddi|zuHause>you can also make the setting "not stored in savegames"
10:49<Eddi|zuHause>it'S one of the flags
10:49<Eddi|zuHause>then it's in the config file only
10:50<agaran>hmm, that plus making it on by config file is fine as well
10:50*Rubidium hopes agaran doesn't use public multiplayer servers with that build
10:50<agaran>Rubidium: how i can append something to version to get mismatch?
10:51<agaran>hmm, right, i need 2 compilations with different directory names/binary names
10:51<Eddi|zuHause>it does that automatically for trunk checkouts, but i don't know for releases
10:51<Rubidium>it'll probably work for a proper tag checkout
10:52<agaran>ised tarball since i had it locally, easier to modify .spec and add %patch10 -p1 ...
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11:02<agaran>Eddi|zuHause: SLF_NOT_IN_SAVE :-)
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11:07<Eddi|zuHause>agaran: there's also a "in network save only" flag, that may be a little safer :)
11:08<agaran>i dont play over network yet, wanted to try some patches i like, mostly because i wanted to find way to sort trains by reachable speed, but seems there is no patch for that
11:08<Eddi|zuHause>there used to be a very ancient speed signs patch
11:09<agaran>and using tracks and signals you can sort by length, but not speed to my knowledge, unless one make ff from logic train and speed detector etc
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11:09<agaran>i rather wanted to direct fast trains (ie empty not necesarly short) to one way of 2x2 lane, and rest to second
11:11<agaran>another one patch i just tested is signals on bridge heads/tunel heads
11:12<Eddi|zuHause>the one that doesn't work with path signals and thus is totally useless (for me)?
11:12<agaran>yes, it dont work, and yes, i use patch signals, but it at least is move in good direction isn't?
11:13<agaran>is there any other one?
11:13<Eddi|zuHause>but that one definitely changes savegames...
11:13<agaran>no it doesnt :)
11:13<agaran>well, its settings doesnt
11:13<agaran>i just wanted to try them with my saves, not to save with them then load back in not patched
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11:24<agaran>Eddi|zuHause: found solution (few years old) to my problem, route markers..
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>i did say ancient :p
11:25<agaran>well, but at least from description it looks like what i want, i can toy with making cpu from trains, but not when i want trains not cpu.. i can solder cpu from ttl chips on my workbench instead, or write one in verilog..
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11:39<Wolf01>hello o/
11:40<agaran>hmm if in forum thread is more updated version of patch than attached in flyspray?
11:40<agaran>FS#2258 for example
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11:45<Eddi|zuHause>agaran: do you trust that someone who updated the patch?
11:45<andythenorth>Goedendag
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>you moved southwards?
11:45<agaran>Eddi|zuHause: well no idea
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11:53<keyy>hello
11:54-!-flaa [~flaa@188.141.45.124] has joined #openttd
11:54<keyy>im trying to make my dedicated server
11:54<keyy>and im wondering how to make goals and scripts for !cv !goal etc...
11:54<keyy>can anyone give me some clues?
12:01<Eddi|zuHause>those scripts are an external program that listens to the chat
12:01<Eddi|zuHause>search for "autopilot"
12:01<Eddi|zuHause>(does not include goals)
12:01<__ln__>keyy: yes, free clue: please use apostrophes.
12:02<keyy>thank you, im going to look for autopilot, and about goals what should i look 4?
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12:15<TrueBrain>this is not texting .. you can type 'for' .. it are not that many letters ;)
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>"it are" doesn't really work either :)
12:17<TrueBrain>that is merely a Dutch person wanting to type english; so stfu :P
12:19<Eddi|zuHause>it's just strategically unwise to make mistakes while correcting others :)
12:20<keyy>funny someone using "stfu" is against me using 4 :)
12:20<TrueBrain>well, mister smartypants, if you bothered to read what I complained about, you would know it is not about the correct spelling and usage of english ;)
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12:21<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: see it as purposely showing the spelling is not important; the lazyness is ;) (hehe, I wonder if I can talk myself out of it .. :P)
12:21<keyy>not sure about that m8 :P
12:21<TrueBrain>keyy: seriously, last warning
12:21<andythenorth>TrueBrain: wtf r u tlkng 8bout, do u e4n no english?
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12:22<TrueBrain>andythenorth: you do understand I now have to kick you, else I am considered 'unfair' and 'biased', right?
12:22<andythenorth>hah
12:22*andythenorth needs a shower anyway
12:22<TrueBrain>:D
12:22<andythenorth>kick me, I have stuff to do :P
12:22<andythenorth>you'll be helping me out ;)
12:22<TheDude>hello
12:22<TrueBrain>@kick andythenorth have a nice shower :D
12:22-!-andythenorth was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [have a nice shower :D]
12:23<keyy>sorry i was wrong it is not openttd channel, it is english learning channel
12:24<TrueBrain>no, this is IRC, not a texting service where everything has to fit in 160 chars; but take it how ever you like, I don't really care :)
12:25<keyy>so explain me what is the difference between using "4" and "stfu"?
12:26<KenjiE20>stfu is an acronym, 4 is a numbe
12:26<KenjiE20>number*
12:27<keyy>i used "4" not as a number
12:27<keyy>so i dont take your answer :)
12:27<keyy>it is like saying "stfu" is four letters
12:33<TrueBrain>@reload XMLRPC
12:33<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: The operation succeeded.
12:34<TrueBrain>owh, someone already did that, how cute :)
12:34<TrueBrain>@commit
12:34<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: Commit by translators :: r24464 /trunk/src/lang (korean.txt slovak.txt) (2012-08-12 17:45:13 UTC)
12:34<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
12:34<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: korean - 5 changes by telk5093
12:34<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: slovak - 19 changes by klingacik
12:34<TrueBrain>hmm
12:35<TrueBrain>@reload XMLRPC
12:35<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: The operation succeeded.
12:35<TrueBrain>there we go :)
12:35*TrueBrain pets DorpsGek
12:35<@DorpsGek>purr purr
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13:00<andythenorth>are there older changelogs online?
13:00<andythenorth>for stable releases?
13:00<Rubidium>andythenorth: yes
13:00<andythenorth>linky?
13:00<andythenorth>can't find them :P
13:01<Rubidium>http://binaries.openttd.org/releases/1.2.1/changelog.txt <- guess the rest
13:02<TrueBrain>we kinda keep everything :P
13:03<andythenorth>thanks
13:05<frosch123>you can also check the wiki
13:05<frosch123>users filter the changelog there for what they consider noteable :p
13:06*Rubidium ponders going through the wiki and marking most if not all pages with: is this notable? [source needed] and such
13:06<frosch123>anyway, trunk changelog contains everything
13:07<frosch123>hmm, actually... 1.2 branch changelog might be better
13:07<Rubidium>so does changelog.txt of your stable release for the releases before that
13:08<frosch123>http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/export/24464/branches/1.2/changelog.txt <- otrta
13:10<frosch123>"- Feature: Center windows properly in higher resolutions" <- we should use the keyword "feature" more liberally again
13:12<andythenorth>:P
13:12<andythenorth>Moar Features
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13:41<@Yexo>good evening
13:41<andythenorth>bonsoir
13:41<Rubidium>'lo Yexo
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: translators * r24465 /trunk/src/lang/ (korean.txt slovak.txt turkish.txt):
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: korean - 1 changes by telk5093
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: slovak - 5 changes by klingacik
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: turkish - 78 changes by otrkmen
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14:12<andythenorth>la la la la la
14:12<andythenorth>la la
14:13<Rubidium>land?
14:13<andythenorth>yeah
14:13<andythenorth>did anyone figure out New Economy while I was in la la land?
14:15<TrueBrain>I only saw Po
14:15<andythenorth>no NooNoo?
14:15<andythenorth>or Tinky Winky?
14:15-!-Alberth [~hat3@2001:980:272e:1:21a:92ff:fe55:fc8d] has joined #openttd
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14:16<TrueBrain>no, he is gay
14:16<andythenorth>Alberth has joined us
14:16<TrueBrain>and good morning Alberth
14:16<TrueBrain>those 2 remarks have no relation btw, just for the record
14:16<andythenorth>Alberth probably went to la la land too
14:16<@Alberth>hi TrueBrain, andythenorth
14:17<@Alberth>if 'work' is part of la la land, yep
14:17<agaran>Eddi|zuHause: you asked if i trust one who updated patch, it was Vaulter who updated to r24376, and nobody in forum thread complained about it ;)
14:19-!-valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd
14:21<@Alberth>andythenorth: sorry, have not seen any of them
14:22<@Alberth>I did have a thought about bypassing the slow increment stuff as suggested by Eddi yesterday; what if the missing industry type appears to be unbuildable?
14:26<andythenorth>define unbuildable? :)
14:28-!-SpBot_ [spbot@skrblz.fixme.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
14:28<@Alberth>trying to build an instance fails?
14:29<andythenorth>it's valid if it happens once
14:29<andythenorth>if it happens n times?
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14:30<andythenorth>I'm tempted to say that newgrf author has screwed up in that cae
14:30<andythenorth>case *
14:30<andythenorth>but map congestion could cause that issue
14:30<andythenorth>what's the cost / risk?
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14:33*Alberth spots a spbot
14:34<andythenorth>Alberth: you might have missed the discussion about cb for total number of industries a grf thinks should be on map
14:34<@Alberth>s/might//
14:35<@Alberth>the risk is that the system only tries to build that missing industry
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14:37<andythenorth>ah
14:38<andythenorth>does similar happen if I return a very high probability to cb22?
14:38<agaran>are there some intro/FAQ question about patch submision/including to trunk rules?
14:38<@Alberth>andythenorth: we seem to have had some discussion about total number of industries about 12 hours - 30 minutes ago
14:39<andythenorth>proposal was a 'global' cb to the newgrf
14:39<@Alberth>trunk has a back-off mechanism that progressively makes the industry less available for trying to build
14:39<andythenorth>ah
14:39<andythenorth>also you were here for most of industry number discussion iirc
14:39<@Alberth>depends on what you discussed in the last 12 hours :p
14:40<@Alberth>agaran: there is a code style page if that's what you mean
14:41<@Yexo>agaran: basically: coding style has to be perfect (see wiki page for that), patch has to have clear goal, has to be easy enough to review
14:41<@Alberth>http://wiki.openttd.org/Coding_style
14:41<@Yexo>if it fixes a bug, it's very easy to get in, new features a bit harder because you might get a discussion whether or not the feature fits OpenTTD
14:42<agaran>i see,
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14:42<agaran>i rather was refering to abandoned patches, but seems its not very good time investment to try to make them running
14:42<@Yexo>might be, depends on the patch
14:43<@Alberth>agaran: many patches are tooooooo big and/or too unfocussed
14:43<@Yexo>sometimes it really pays of to simply restart instead of trying to update the old patch
14:43<agaran>Alberth: ones i tried today (for first time patching ottd itself) are rather short ones
14:43<agaran>(like automated train control speed limit patch, which is like few kb whole diff size)
14:43-!-telanus1 [~telanus@196-210-226-47.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
14:44<@Yexo>but that's probably (not sure, have never looked at it) a very difficult one to test
14:44<@Alberth>agaran: iirc that one does look ahead by itself?
14:44<@Yexo>ie make sure it always works properly, has no unexpected behavior, etc.
14:45<agaran>so all code on trunk has same quality, ie, is always verified and perfect if you require all patches to meet that level?
14:45<@Yexo>of course it isn't perfect, but we try to make it so ;)
14:46<@Yexo>and then there is old code of dubious quality, but again we try to update it
14:46<andythenorth>Alberth: at 20.07 in the log we talked a bit more about cb
14:46<andythenorth>then about town effect industries
14:46<andythenorth>cargos *
14:47<andythenorth>then it was time for sleep :P
14:47<@Alberth>did anything of interest arise from that?
14:48<@Alberth>agaran: there are also patches filled with "// XXX fixme" comments. Somewhere you have to draw a line
14:48<andythenorth>Alberth: the usual :)
14:48<andythenorth>I had silly ideas
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14:48<agaran>Alberth: of course, i understand that
14:49<CIA-4>OpenTTD: yexo * r24466 /trunk/src/network/ (core/tcp_content.cpp core/tcp_content.h network_content.cpp): -Codechange [FS#5236]: add general function for ContentType -> Subdirectory conversion (LordAro)
14:50<agaran>Yexo: from code all i can see, is in worst case not working speed limiting, so not worse than no patch at all, but i dont know internals to check if how stuff is used is correct.
14:50*andythenorth kind of wonders 'less talk, more code' wrt NoCo :P
14:51<andythenorth>but two things fail for that
14:51<andythenorth>(1) andythenorth's coding ability (2) not a good way to design interfaces / spec
14:51<@Alberth>only two? :)
14:51<andythenorth>Alberth: branch or patch, then test tweaks to industry generation?
14:51<@Alberth>2 needs a NFO spec at least
14:51<andythenorth>I don't have much free time, but I can test patches and such
14:52<andythenorth>how about we see what we can improve without (re)inventing spec?
14:52*andythenorth can even write patches if it's simple :P
14:52<CIA-4>OpenTTD: yexo * r24467 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange [FS#5236]: make textfile window class slightly more general (LordAro)
14:53<@Yexo>agaran: if you already update it, give me a link and I'll take a quick look
14:53<@Alberth>andythenorth: do you have a battle plan?
14:53-!-flaa [~flaa@188.141.45.124] has quit [Quit: leaving]
14:53<andythenorth>test the possible one line fix l2666 or such?
14:54<andythenorth>apply it to my current game, as I am about to enter a period where industries need to open
14:54<@Alberth>what one-line fix for l2666?
14:54<agaran>Yexo: not posted updated version yet, besides conflict at settings.ini it just applied (and settings.ini i fixed with help of #openttd)
14:54-!-Kjetil [kjetil@161.81-166-7.customer.lyse.net] has joined #openttd
14:54<andythenorth>Alberth: one you and Eddi|zuHause seemed to suggest / agree on? Forcing new types to get built if I understood correctly (possibly not)
14:54<@Alberth>I see the need, but no solution yet
14:55<agaran>Yexo: i am recompiling again, if i get something that adhere more to coding-style on wiki, i'll let you know on channel or something
14:55-!-Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd
14:55<agaran>also i dig on release not trunk, so probably need fix that part too
14:55<@Alberth>also, I am not convinced it's worth the effort at this time, as it just moves the problem from 0 to 1 industries
14:56<andythenorth>less ideal
14:56<andythenorth>something like Alu. chain needs > 1 bauxite mine to make sense
14:56<@Yexo>agaran: yes, when you want a patch included always make sure the diff is against trunk
14:57<andythenorth>having the grf return the number of industries needed is ok-ish, at least it's clean
14:57<agaran>Yexo: sure, that not sophisticated requirement unless commits per seconds are too big number
14:57<andythenorth>it puts work on the newgrf author
14:57-!-M1zera [~Miranda@ip-78-102-217-126.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd
14:57<andythenorth>and leaves no flexibility in future for GS authors
14:58<@Yexo>agaran: a few revisions old doesn't matter, as long as it still applies cleanly
14:58<agaran>Yexo: i smiled of course, i understand
14:58<andythenorth>Alberth: we can't teach game details of an industry set...but could we teach it about chains?
14:58<andythenorth>in abstract, i.e. build this set of industry types in ratio xyz
14:58<@Alberth>andythenorth: one industry produces X, another one needs X, seems fine to me
14:59<andythenorth>ach the newgrf can solve this anyway with var 67 and cb22
14:59<Kjetil>also needs a concept of the worth of X
14:59<andythenorth>because...?
15:01*Kjetil just assumed that the point of teaching game details was to add new industrial chains without changing the source
15:03*andythenorth ponders
15:04*Alberth makes tea
15:04<andythenorth>wise
15:04*andythenorth is going to the pub in a bit to work
15:05<andythenorth>Alberth: this problem starts out looking very simple
15:06<andythenorth>3 connected problems
15:06<andythenorth>(1) newgrf can do nearly everything it needs to wrt closing, but has no global overview of the state of industries etc, game needs to do that
15:06<andythenorth>(2) newgrf can't influence opening very much (only cb22 probability), so chains aren't completed / new types not built
15:07<andythenorth>(3) game's fixed numbers of industries (per setting in map gen) are for default industries; don't match well to large industry newgrfs
15:07<andythenorth>that's got to be solvable in isolation :P
15:08<andythenorth>it only gets horribly complicated when I try to find a useful interface between GS and newgrf, without breaking too much of what we have
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15:13<drac_boy>hi
15:13<@Alberth>have GS control the game mechanisms instead?
15:13<@Alberth>hi drac_boy
15:13<drac_boy>still talking about industries again?
15:14<TrueBrain>still .. again? :P
15:14<andythenorth>Alberth: yeah, having GS control the game mechanisms is a big +lots from me
15:14<andythenorth>but then how much do you change newgrf spec to permit that?
15:15<andythenorth>anyway, I can't solve it, and soon the crowd will start throwing peanuts
15:15<andythenorth>if we could solve 1, 2, 3 above, I'd go away and be quiet :P
15:16<andythenorth>users are quick to suggest features, but then when spec is being worked out, they throw peanuts
15:16<andythenorth>it's kind of tiresome :P
15:17<agaran>is --prefix-dir=... sufficient to get all trunk compiled installed there?
15:17<TrueBrain>./configure --help
15:17<@Alberth>I never bother to install
15:17<agaran>Alberth: o, thats even better
15:17<andythenorth>make run -j13
15:17<andythenorth>:P
15:18<agaran>TrueBrain: i have read to find --prefix-dir in place of usual --prefix by autoconf..
15:18<TrueBrain>well, the text behind it says exactly what it does :)
15:18<agaran>andythenorth: thank you
15:18<agaran>TrueBrain: didnt worked as i expeted from reading help thus asked here..
15:18<andythenorth>agaran: I didn't answer your question :)
15:18<@Alberth>agaran: make the data files findable by all installs, and then just "cd bin ; ./openttd" or "make run"
15:19<andythenorth>just suggested an alternative
15:19<TrueBrain> --prefix-dir=dir specifies the prefix for all installed
15:19<TrueBrain> files [/usr/local]
15:19<agaran>andythenorth: you gave usefull alternative, thats handy
15:19<TrueBrain>your question and the help do not give any room for an answer ..
15:19<agaran>TrueBrain: yup, and make install failed at impossibility to create //<somedirs> where it was compiled with prefix-dir set to ~/opt/openttd-trunk/
15:20<@Alberth>agaran: ~ is a shell thing, use $HOME instead
15:20<TrueBrain>so your question was jus tunrelated to your problem, great :)
15:20<agaran>TrueBrain: you always are so kind or just that especially for me?
15:20<TrueBrain>lately we have a lot of people who ask that was it clearly documented
15:20<TrueBrain>it is exhausting
15:21<TrueBrain>if you just said your issue from the start, this conversation would never have happened :)
15:21<agaran>Alberth: i know, some apps cope with ~ well
15:22<@Alberth>andythenorth: 1,2, 3 seems like a good goal to me
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15:22<agaran>TrueBrain: yes, will remember to not ask you
15:22<CIA-4>OpenTTD: yexo * r24468 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 3 dirs): -Add [FS#5219]: API compatibility scripts for Goal Scripts (Hirundo)
15:22<TrueBrain>@kban agaran 300 now you are rude
15:22-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!~agaran@static-78-8-120-176.ssp.dialog.net.pl] by DorpsGek
15:22-!-agaran was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [now you are rude]
15:23<andythenorth>Alberth: before patching any game I could just try returning highest value for probability to cb22
15:23<@Alberth>andythenorth: for random suggestions, smooth economy for ind newgrfs?
15:23<andythenorth>you mean, use that setting? Or change something?
15:24<@Alberth>make newgrfs aware of it was my intention :)
15:24<andythenorth>they kind of are via monthly prod. change cb
15:24<@Alberth>but likely it is complicated :p
15:25<andythenorth>frosch123 would know better than me, but I thought smooth economy was primarily 'use monthly not random', and then adjust values to suit
15:25<andythenorth>I'll try the cb22 probability adjustment in FIRS soon
15:25-!-TheMask96 [martijn@polaris.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:26<@Alberth>I doubt that using high cb22 values has much effect; new industries already have it due to not having any instance at the map
15:26<andythenorth>me too
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15:27-!-mode/#openttd [-b *!~agaran@static-78-8-120-176.ssp.dialog.net.pl] by Yexo
15:27<TrueBrain>Yexo: 2 seconds before DorpsGek would? :P
15:27<@Yexo>oh, was it 5 minutes?
15:27<TrueBrain>what do you think? :P
15:27<@Yexo>nvm, not sure what I was thinking :p
15:28<andythenorth>so I have a 512x512 map with 218 industries
15:28<andythenorth>and the default for 'normal' at 256 would be 55
15:28<andythenorth>so I basically have 2 slots, if I've guessed the scaling factor correctly
15:29<andythenorth>and I have 11 types that have 0 instances, due to not being available yet
15:29<andythenorth>and to get meaningful production amounts, ~20 new industries need to be added to the map
15:29<andythenorth>most within next 50 years
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15:30<frosch123>smooth economy is a dead end
15:31<@Alberth>?
15:31<andythenorth>?
15:31<frosch123>it's a hack which modifies production multipliers instead of rate
15:31<andythenorth>ah
15:31<andythenorth>New Economy
15:31<andythenorth>scale the rate of changes
15:31<frosch123>you can expose the setting, but you cannot make the code of it useful
15:31<andythenorth>k
15:32<andythenorth>so I only test FIRS with smooth economy enabled, but does that make any real difference?
15:32<frosch123>i would hope some day we can remove that setting, and replace it with a newgrf
15:32<andythenorth>economy newgrf?
15:32<@Alberth>frosch123: for my understanding, 10% increase is just keeping production where it is, but multiplying the output with 1.1 ?
15:33<frosch123>andythenorth: smooth economy is disabled if you enable the production callback, or any of the production change callbacks
15:33<andythenorth>k
15:33<CIA-4>OpenTTD: yexo * r24469 /trunk/bin/game/ (. compat_1.2.nut compat_1.3.nut): -Fix (r24468): forgot to svn add the new files
15:33<TrueBrain>Yexo: owh you fixed that? Awesome :)
15:34<frosch123>"-Feature: Compatibility scripts for windows" ?
15:34<@Yexo>my first commits in 5 months
15:34<TrueBrain>gratz
15:34<TrueBrain>and welcome back :P
15:34<@Yexo>it's been too long
15:34<@Alberth>\o/
15:34<TrueBrain>hmm ... is it me, or did the commit script fail
15:34<frosch123>Alberth: no idea, what you wanted to tell me :)
15:35<TrueBrain>frosch123: you and your features :P We really will see all your commits as Feature now, don't we?
15:36<frosch123>TrueBrain: take a look at the 0.1.1 changelog and what was considered a feature back then :p
15:36<@Alberth>frosch123: I was asking a question to get a better understanding of what you said about smooth economy being hack-ish, I read it but lack context
15:36<@Yexo><TrueBrain> hmm ... is it me, or did the commit script fail <- in which way?
15:36<TrueBrain>Yexo: check what is before compat_1.2.nut
15:36<TrueBrain>a dot?
15:36<TrueBrain>not sure ... it looks odd
15:36<TrueBrain>frosch123: features ar ein the eye of the beholder
15:37<frosch123>[19:10] <frosch123> "- Feature: Center windows properly in higher resolutions" <- we should use the keyword "feature" more liberally again
15:37<@Yexo>I think that dot is because of "svn add bin/game/"
15:37<@Yexo>adding a new directory
15:37<TrueBrain>ah
15:37<TrueBrain>never seen it before :D
15:37<@Yexo>me neither
15:37<andythenorth>hmm
15:38*andythenorth explores ChangeIndustryProduction once again
15:38<andythenorth>when I mention that industry_cmd.cpp is full of madness, I do mean this function, amongst others
15:38<andythenorth>so many fricking conditional clauses
15:38<frosch123>Alberth: smooth economy making smaller production changes is one thing; but the problem is that it changes the production of multiple output cargos independently and abuses production multipliers in a way, that makes it completely incompatible with newgrf
15:39<frosch123>maybe we should change smooth economy so that it changes the production multiplier
15:39<andythenorth>maybe
15:39<frosch123>gah, and we need better terms than production multipleirs and rates
15:39<andythenorth>or maybe there should just be one economy
15:39<frosch123>i messed them up, so i made no sense :p
15:39<andythenorth>he
15:39<andythenorth>yes that
15:39<andythenorth>:)
15:40<TrueBrain>-Feature: better terms for production multipliers and rates
15:40<andythenorth>codechange :P
15:40<@Alberth>"production multiplier" means absolutely nothing to me :)
15:40<andythenorth>TrueBrain: you win the prize for abuse of -Feature
15:40<TrueBrain>so it is 0?
15:40<TrueBrain>andythenorth: thank you thank you
15:40<andythenorth>frosch123 ideal: we have one economy, but ChangeIndustryProduction is called more or less often. We bin a lot of that conditional code
15:40<frosch123>Alberth: Industry::production_rate vs. prod_level
15:41<TrueBrain>andythenorth: it was only on frosch123's request to use it more liberal
15:41<andythenorth>frosch123: 'output' would have made more sense for one of those vars
15:41<andythenorth>prod. multiplier makes complete sense when we use it
15:41<andythenorth>shame the code doesn't use it too :P
15:42<andythenorth>fancy an industry_cmd.cpp refactor?
15:43<@Alberth>only if it is a feature :p
15:43<andythenorth>-Feature: removed madness
15:43<andythenorth>-Feature: reduced confusion
15:43<@Yexo>-Feature: better code due to a refactor
15:43<TrueBrain>hmm ... map-rewrite ....
15:43<andythenorth>-Feature: used less confusion to agree spec; added new madness
15:43<TrueBrain>just saying
15:43<andythenorth>true dat
15:45<andythenorth>ha
15:45<andythenorth>if (smooth_economy) { [boring silly code] }
15:45<andythenorth>should die ^
15:45<TrueBrain>-Feature: die
15:45<andythenorth>just bin it :P
15:45<TrueBrain>wait?
15:45<andythenorth>-Feature: rm-ed all code for fewer bugs
15:46<andythenorth>I taught our work irc bot to swear btw
15:46<andythenorth>definitely good use of time
15:46<TrueBrain>I once made a patch for peter, which fixed all bugs
15:46<TrueBrain>he didn't appreciate the patch
15:46<andythenorth>he
15:46<TrueBrain>(it removed everything)
15:46<andythenorth>didn't you once get rid of all the bugs in the repo?
15:46<andythenorth>the repo was bug free for a time?
15:47<andythenorth>where did smooth economy come from?
15:47<@Yexo>it certainly wasn't possible to get buggy code out of the repo :p
15:47<@Yexo>ttdpatch?
15:47<andythenorth>does smooth economy do anything that couldn't be substituted by something else, like newgrf?
15:47<andythenorth>or a better way of getting similar result
15:48-!-KritiK [~Maxim@89-178-58-40.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd
15:50<@Yexo>good night all
15:51<@Alberth>good night Y
15:51<@Alberth>andythenorth: seems it needs more understanding first :)
15:52<andythenorth>Alberth: maybe it's the place to start for any kind of fixing
15:52<andythenorth>seems we're unhappy with it
15:52<andythenorth>every time I go into industry_cmd.cpp it makes me die a little inside :)
15:53<@Alberth>hide the file
15:53<@Alberth>to be sure rip the disk out of your machine, and burn it
15:53<andythenorth>burning doesn't destroy
15:53<andythenorth>need to vaporise the platters
15:53<andythenorth>hammer helps
15:54<andythenorth>anyway, I know high loc count can be due to very well-finished code, handling edge cases
15:54<andythenorth>but smooth economy has ~50 loc, and non-smooth has ~3 loc :P
15:55<@Alberth>major patch thus :)
15:55<frosch123>TrueBrain: your patch was way too big to review
15:55<andythenorth>yet we know the results of smooth economy are problematic :P
15:55<andythenorth>anyway
15:55*andythenorth -> pub
15:55<TrueBrain>frosch123: haha, it was :D
15:55<TrueBrain>andythenorth: anjoy
15:55<TrueBrain>enjoy even
15:56<andythenorth>I shell
15:56<andythenorth>bye
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16:05<lilleman>Anyone knows of any problems with see through (or actually the lack of) buildings etc on Linux?
16:05<lilleman>Or is it just me that cant handle the GUI well enough? :)
16:05<lilleman>My cities gets huge, and I cant find my bus depots :p
16:07<TrueBrain>not really ..
16:07<TrueBrain>X normally makes stuff transparent
16:07<TrueBrain>not OS depending if it works or not
16:07<TrueBrain>so what is the problem exactly?
16:08<lilleman>The buildings just... dont get see through
16:08<lilleman>I click the gear
16:08<lilleman>and make sure "Transparent buildings" are checked
16:09<lilleman>but nothing happends
16:09<TrueBrain>did you enable transparency itself?
16:09<TrueBrain>dunno if that matters tbh
16:09<lilleman>Just because I went into this channel, it works now
16:09<lilleman>Just like that
16:09<TrueBrain>well, this channel happen to do that
16:09<frosch123>lilleman: press ctrl+x
16:09<TrueBrain>its a magic channel
16:09<lilleman>I believe so
16:09<lilleman>Thanks for the magic :)
16:10<drac_boy>heh
16:18<TrueBrain>okay, I just tried Minecraft 1.3
16:18<TrueBrain>never again
16:20<lilleman>Why?
16:20<lilleman>And, is it possible to clear houses in a city? Or will the authorities always refuse this?
16:21<lilleman>If that is the case, how is one supposed to develope larger city terminals?
16:22<frosch123>lilleman: plant trees to make them happy
16:22<Kjetil>then destroy the trees to punish them!
16:22<Kjetil>mohahaha
16:22<TrueBrain>or bribe the city
16:22<frosch123>or provide good service
16:22<TrueBrain>or, ofc, cheat
16:24<@Alberth>or build them early in the game
16:26<@Alberth>good night
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16:27<drac_boy>I've always had Outstanding rating in a short time ... except for sometimes having Good or Poor rating that sticks at small villages I simply had to bypass
16:27<drac_boy>:)
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16:34<lilleman>okok. thanks :)
16:34<lilleman>Is it possible to see how happy the authorities are?
16:36<drac_boy>lilleman open the dialog for the town ... it'll tell you right there
16:36<lilleman>oh
16:37<drac_boy>usually it starts with Good (which is not shown atm) .. but destroy more than a few small things and it'll drop ... if you get down to Poor you pretty much can't do any constructions anymore within town perimeters
16:38<drac_boy>sometimes you need a higher rating than Good to be able to blow up certain bigger buildings tho (the Stadium sometimes does that too)
16:38<TrueBrain>this game will make you a tree hugger
16:38<TrueBrain>it is our way to promote green
16:38<drac_boy>heh :p
16:40<drac_boy>well I'm already a tree hugger.. I don't build excessive multiply lines and keep locomotives for as long as I can? :P
16:40<drac_boy>heh
16:41<TrueBrain>so you use old dirty engines for a long time?
16:41<TrueBrain>over replacing them for a better env-friendly version?
16:42<TrueBrain>pfffff
16:42<drac_boy>not really
16:42<frosch123>TrueBrain: he's still using horses
16:42<TrueBrain>frosch123: their poop is bad for the env
16:42<frosch123>no, it is great
16:42<TrueBrain>ieuw
16:43<frosch123>everyone with a garden is hunting after horses to collect their stuff
16:43<drac_boy>frosch123 even real railroads have this problem ... 17 years old class of electric locomotives being replaced by a similar new class .. except that the latter has more thermal problems during winter
16:43<drac_boy>sometimes newer doesn't always mean better
16:43<TrueBrain>it does!
16:43<TrueBrain>I disagree!
16:43<TrueBrain>JUDGE!
16:44<frosch123>TrueBrain: just compare yourself with today's youth
16:44<frosch123>are they better? :p
16:44<TrueBrain>hmm
16:44<TrueBrain>the females are
16:44<TrueBrain>I often want to replace for a newer model
16:44<frosch123>:s
16:44<TrueBrain>(I mean in a legal sense, ofc)
16:46<frosch123>http://www.ping-timeout.de/UserFiles/Image/fun/werbung/klein_geil_schwarz.jpg <- whenever that topic comes up, i have to think about that image
16:46<frosch123>(sorry, german)
16:46<drac_boy>on the other hand theres diesel re-powering in certain cases both in usa and europe ... eg the EMD SW600 may be a rather old design but to find one still running around with fresh new two 370hp gensets under its hood just goes to show otherwise
16:46<TrueBrain>should I take it as a sign that that page gives me a timeout?
16:46<TrueBrain>which is ironic, given its domain
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: ever seen that How I Met Your Mother episode when they asked "what is your newest whisky?" :p
16:47<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: I have seen them all, but I cannot remember :s
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: it was exactly about this argument: "Newer is always better"
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>"so the new star wars films, are they better than the old ones?"
16:48<TrueBrain>PING ping-timeout.de(shell08.ping-timeout.de) 56 data bytes
16:48<frosch123>anyway, replacing tb with a girl sounds like a nice plan
16:48<TrueBrain>^C
16:48<TrueBrain>--- ping-timeout.de ping statistics ---
16:48<TrueBrain>5 packets transmitted, 0 received, 100% packet loss, time 3999ms
16:48<TrueBrain>the irony
16:48<TrueBrain>(IPv6 fails, but they have AAAA record)
16:48-!-valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
16:48<TrueBrain>frosch123: I am all in for that
16:49<TrueBrain>any females who want to volunteer?
16:50<Kjetil>Any second now...
16:51<V453000>:D
16:52<TrueBrain>well, that concludes that quest
16:52<TrueBrain>dammit
16:54<Kjetil>Could probably rent one from bride.ru
16:54<TrueBrain>my roommate was dating a polish girl .. the jokes made ... the jokes made ...
16:56<Kjetil>:D
17:01<frosch123>night
17:01-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590ffdea.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:02<TrueBrain>I have to write a bot for frosch
17:02<TrueBrain>when he says night, that it replies
17:03<TrueBrain>as ... damn, he is fast
17:03<NGC3982>Someone said bride.ru.
17:03<NGC3982>Oh.
17:03<TrueBrain>you have a highlight there?
17:04<TrueBrain>that is just sick, sorry, but, really?
17:04<NGC3982>Definetly not the channel i first thought of.
17:04<TrueBrain>haha
17:05<NGC3982>It's funny.
17:05<TrueBrain>the site?
17:05<NGC3982>People can complain a lot on my telemarketing business, but selling people is for some reason ok.
17:05<NGC3982>;)
17:06<TrueBrain>you own a telemarketing business?
17:06<TrueBrain>you and I need to hav ea talk ....
17:06<TrueBrain>my foot
17:06<TrueBrain>your ... hav eyou ever watched the Seventy show?
17:06<NGC3982>Im sorry?
17:06<TrueBrain>you don't know it?
17:07<TrueBrain>http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0165598/
17:07<NGC3982>That Seventees show, yes. the Seventy show? Nietskij, comrade.
17:07<TrueBrain>tomato tomato
17:07<TrueBrain>its late
17:07<NGC3982>(I actually thought you ment something else :P)
17:07<TrueBrain>I didnt :)
17:07<NGC3982>But yes, i have. Lot's of it.
17:07<TrueBrain>I just didn't want to say what I wanted to say :P
17:07<TrueBrain>as it is not really polite to do :P
17:08<NGC3982>Oh, yes. The telemarketing business is greatly strucken by prejudice and "Oh that means you want my dead sons money".
17:09<TrueBrain>all I can think about are the annoying calls
17:09<NGC3982>When it's basicly the word used to define almost everything done by phone.
17:09<TrueBrain>I hate to be called at some off hour to ask me if I want something
17:09<Kjetil>*shoves NGC3982 down the stairs and mumbles something about bringing out the gimp*
17:09<TrueBrain>if I want something, I will come to you, not the other way around :)
17:19<TrueBrain>but no worries NGC3982, we love you no matter what your job is :)
17:20<NGC3982>:)
17:20<TrueBrain>and with we I mean I
17:20<TrueBrain>:P
17:21*NGC3982 sells TB a dead seal
17:21<TrueBrain>I am waiting for my statis period to end, and it nowhere tells me when exactly
17:21<TrueBrain>its boring
17:23<NGC3982>statis?
17:23<TrueBrain>EVE Online
17:23<TrueBrain>don't ask
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>ask!
17:30<Rubidium>is Adam online as well?
17:32<TrueBrain>I am sure he is
17:38<NGC3982>I think im going to make a salute hymn to tardigrades.
17:39<Eddi|zuHause>that does not parse
17:40*TrueBrain inserts Perl
17:40<TrueBrain>helps?
17:40<Eddi|zuHause>i have never ever had a situation where perl helped me :p
17:40<TrueBrain>that is the joke!
17:40<TrueBrain>:P
17:50<@Terkhen>good night
17:50<drac_boy>bye Terkhen
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---Logclosed Tue Aug 14 00:00:21 2012