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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-08-15

---Logopened Wed Aug 15 00:00:18 2012
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02:44<NGC3982>herpy derpy
02:48<@peter1138>Yes and no
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03:02<NGC3982>I just noticed the parameter functions on ECS and 2CC.
03:03<NGC3982>Quadroupled costs + No-industry-closing make a neat scenario.
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06:12<@Terkhen>good morning
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06:13<V453000>afternoon Terkhen :p
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06:14<Wolf01>hello o/
06:14<@Terkhen>it's morning for me :)
06:14<@Terkhen>hi Wolf01
06:17<drac_boy>V453000 its morning here as well :p
06:17<V453000>well I guess it depends on how you declare morning
06:18<drac_boy>anything from dawn to before noon :)
06:18<@Terkhen>nah, it is not "really" morning here, but it felt like morning for me
06:22<V453000>that is what I mean :D
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06:43<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: that doesn't apply, because it was after 12:00 when you joined
06:43<drac_boy>its actually 06:43 now silly
06:43<Eddi|zuHause>unless "noon" means "highest point of the sun", then that would put it at 13:00 in summer
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09:36*Belugas is working on implementing threads for work@work. SQL queries through threads. Lovely
09:36<@Belugas>boss has so many crazy ideas...
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09:50<Rubidium>oh, one of those bosses that heard "threads" and/or "multi-core computing" and thus wants to add threads to an application
09:50<Rubidium>good luck making it slower by doing the SQL query in another thread and waiting for that thread to complete before continueing
09:52<frosch123>is threading in delphi still as broken as it was 10 years ago?
09:53<frosch123>back then was: newer use the "synchronize" methjod, it locks up the application when exiting
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09:54<Rubidium>on the other hand, doing a SQL query on a database server offloads it to another thread ;)
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09:57<@Belugas>well... i do not neet to fetch a result, it's an update/insert/delete stuff
09:57<@Belugas>the point was more to free up the program for not important immediate processing
09:58<@Belugas>idea is good, and Delphi 4 is diong the job fine, so far
10:02<@Belugas>synchronize is indeed to avoid for most usage. i go with CriticalSections instead.
10:02<@Belugas>tricky, i need to create my one TSession for each thread accessing BDE :S
10:38<kais58>I hate SQL
10:39<lilleman>I love SQL
10:48<@Belugas>I love SQL too. very effective
10:49<Warod>map-reduce is nice too. :>
10:49<@Belugas>I guess you hate it when you don't either know it or use it or are good with it
10:50<Warod>Or know too much of things done with it.
10:52<Rubidium>for certain things SQL isn't very effective though
10:54<lilleman>SQL is not very good at cooking food :/
10:55<@Belugas>but for a POS system/chain of stores management, it is quite effective
10:55<@Belugas>when on-time data is not required, as an example...
10:58<@Belugas>note that i might be tempted with a faster i/o based db system for cash sales and such
10:58<@Belugas>sometimes, it's a bit too much
10:59<@Belugas>robustness and speed sometimes clash
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12:08<BenTrein>Time to learn Chinese fellows.
12:13<Starlight>Doesn't look bad.
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12:46<NGC3982>__ln__: GRF it! GRF it before it lay eggs!
12:55<NGC3982>Does a town stop accepting water at some point in tropical climate?
12:56<BenTrein>As long as it keeps it's watertower it should keep accepting it.
12:56<BenTrein>Or are you talking ecs?
12:56<BenTrein>Ah, sorry. I got no idea. :D
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12:57<NGC3982>I didnt really realize that i didnt have a water tower at all
12:57<BenTrein>:) Maybe that helps.
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13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r24473 /trunk/src/lang/portuguese.txt:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: portuguese - 1 changes by filipemsoares
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13:55<@Terkhen>hi andythenorth
13:56<andythenorth>who here is familiar with Club-Mate?
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14:04<andythenorth>Alberth: \o/
14:04<andythenorth>this stuff
14:04<andythenorth>is goo
14:05<@Alberth>Man gewöhnt sich daran :)
14:06<@Alberth>so you're super hyper now with all that cafeine? :)
14:07<andythenorth>not today
14:07<andythenorth>today I am having caffeine crash
14:09<NGC3982>I just love how i can deliver steel to a tinning factory and create food for a nearby town.
14:09<NGC3982>It's like soylent transformers or something.
14:11<andythenorth>this channel has a minor soylent obsession
14:11<@Belugas>better then caffeine trash
14:11<Wolf01> yeah, that's my ottd museum :D
14:17<NGC3982>Wolf01: I love that.
14:17<NGC3982>I so want to live in a place like that
14:23<Rubidium>the heating bill will be horrible
14:23<@Belugas>may want to visit this one, NGC3982 :
14:24<@Belugas>half an hour drive from my place :)
14:24<Rubidium>just horrid accessibility from the main train station :(
14:29<@Belugas>ho. did you tried to visit it? would you have wished?
14:29*Starlight does have a minor shunting yard near by. :3
14:29<@Belugas>sorry, it did not cross my mind it would be interesting for you
14:29<@Belugas>make one in lego, Starlight :)
14:30<Rubidium>when I saw the horrid connection there I chose not to go
14:30<Rubidium>and do some other stuff, rather than sit 4 hours in transit
14:30<Rubidium>especially since I've been to something similar in Cowgary
14:32<Starlight>Ha. Well, considering where I live, I think it connects to multiple locations. I do have a freight line track right across the street. The train comes around at night carrying coal (I think?) and .. as OpenTTD would have; Iron Ore (again! I think?) to the Steel Mill.
14:32<Starlight>All I know is, they are defiently coal hoppers from CSX.
14:32<@Belugas>true, Rubidium. so instead, we've sat for more then 4 hours in my car :D
14:33<@Belugas>plus, i assumed you have your share of trains in a yearly basis ;)
14:33<Rubidium>yep, even "cattle class" ;)
14:34<NGC3982>Belugas: ;)
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14:37<Rubidium> is pretty much cattle class ;)
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14:37<andythenorth>is that in HEQS?
14:38<Rubidium>I doubt that, neither in the Dutch train set
14:38<Rubidium>although I didn't ask about that one
14:38<andythenorth>how many PAX does it carry? :P
14:39<Rubidium>it has "seats" for two (besides the drive)
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14:39<Rubidium>comfort class: NaN
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14:42<@Belugas>Rubidium, you didnot meant that type of cattle class, don't you? :
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14:55*andythenorth tries Alberth's industry patch
14:55<@Alberth>(08:54:30 PM) Alberth: andythenorth: <-- shall I add indonesian.lng ?
14:56<andythenorth>ok :)
14:57<andythenorth>using my leet shell skills, I should be able to pipe this output to a file
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14:58<@Alberth>./openttd -d ind=4 >& tzelogvile
14:58<andythenorth>the & helps :)
14:59<@Alberth>it's a bit blunt, it redicrects everything :)
15:00<andythenorth>the total number of +ve or -ve seems to be roughly balanced
15:01<andythenorth>1 too few currently
15:01<andythenorth>I am deliberately testing an easy case - flat map, lots of space
15:01<@Alberth>yeah, it's pretty good at reaching the required number of industries :p
15:02<andythenorth>not sure how often the cb is running
15:02<andythenorth>I ffwed about 1 year of game time, and get 4 runs
15:12<@Alberth>it has been a few years, I don't have the details in my head any more. You could try to bulldoze a few industries, and see what happens
15:14<frosch123>andythenorth: i think it depends on the map size
15:14<frosch123>maybe once per month on 256x256 ?
15:20<andythenorth>maybe I should add game month + year to the debug output
15:30<andythenorth>just got a scrap yard and steel mill in 1879
15:30<andythenorth>available since 1873
15:31<andythenorth>'1' is not a very large sample
15:31<andythenorth>I would have to play a lot of games I guess
15:32<andythenorth>"Target count recalculated"
15:32<andythenorth>followed by ""Scrap Yard" opened"
15:32<andythenorth>changed from "1 too few" to "4 too few"
15:33<@Alberth>Target count recalculated means some industry availability or random probability changed, so it re-computes (with a random number generator) how many industries to make of each type
15:34<@Alberth>the use of the RG means that the numbers will change a bit every time
15:35<andythenorth>ok, so it does listen to cb 22
15:35<andythenorth>by some means
15:35<@Alberth>How do you make a callback?
15:35<@Alberth>of ocurse it listens to the newgrf :)
15:35<andythenorth>I assume you mean 'how to add to ottd?'
15:36<@Alberth>yes, if you know that :)
15:36<andythenorth>one min
15:36<@Alberth>but I'd settle for a few NFO lines too :)
15:36<@Alberth>the newgrf specs are just horrible, they don't explain anything
15:37<andythenorth>a patch does though :)
15:37<andythenorth>one min
15:38<andythenorth>that was accepted so must be ok :)
15:39<andythenorth>add it to a newgrf_callbacks.h, add to newgrf_debug_data.h
15:39<andythenorth>(don't need debug if not trying for trunk inclusion)
15:39<andythenorth>add code to industry_cmd.cpp to handle it
15:39<andythenorth>then you'll need a test grf
15:40<andythenorth>extending nml is trivial; grfcodec less so
15:40<@Alberth>grfcodec fails to just code what I tell it to?
15:40<frosch123>andy means nforenum
15:40<andythenorth>it or nforenum _might_ throw errors
15:41<andythenorth>it's harder to take renum out of a FIRS nfo build than to fix nml :P
15:41<andythenorth>it's solvable
15:41<@Alberth>I would hope that nforrenum makes noise when using undefined cb's :)
15:43<@Alberth>My problem is currently that I don't know which action to use for defining a cb.
15:43<NGC3982>Im not understanding the ECS wiki
15:44<NGC3982>I note that number of visits + full load is the best way to handle ECS vectors
15:44<NGC3982>But i have no idea why.
15:44<@Alberth>NGC3982: you understand the newgrf specs wiki? maybe we can swap our problems :p
15:44<andythenorth>Alberth: action in nml? nfo? or ottd?
15:45<frosch123>what are you actually heading for?
15:45<frosch123>i did not quite understand that :s
15:45<NGC3982>Alberth: <not>.
15:45<andythenorth>Alberth: adding a cb is deceptively easy :)
15:45<andythenorth>that's why my patch got accepted :P
15:47<@Alberth>I was thinking to start with moving the total number of industries number into a newgrf cb.
15:49<andythenorth>what return values are valid?
15:49<andythenorth>byte or word?
15:49<andythenorth>result is got from something like:
15:49<andythenorth>uint16 res = GetIndustryCallback(CBID_INDUSTRY_PROD_CHANGE_BUILD, 0, 0, i, type, INVALID_TILE);
15:50<frosch123>Alberth: a single callback for total amount? or per industry type?
15:50<frosch123>the latter would be the same as cb22
15:50<@Alberth>total amount
15:50<andythenorth>allowing values other than '55' :P
15:50<frosch123>for a single callback independent of industry type, you want a so called "generic callback"
15:51<frosch123>take a look at AmbientSoundEffectCallback for an example
15:52<@Alberth>and taking mapsize and industry density into account by the newgrf may make sense too
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15:53*andythenorth is playing a FIRS game in 1870s and enjoying it
15:54<andythenorth>setting 0 intro date for some more industries helps prevent broken chains in 1870
15:54<andythenorth>= more fun
15:54<andythenorth>but also my train set doesn't have trains until 1905
15:54<andythenorth>so I only have steam trams and ships
15:54<andythenorth>minimal = a little more fun
15:58<@Alberth>did you see the post about making a game script for FIRS andy?
15:58<andythenorth>where's it to?
16:00<andythenorth>well that will provide evidence at least
16:00<andythenorth>I've given up again trying to solve GS and am sticking to the newgrf end :P
16:00<andythenorth>I know zero about GS, so I'm incompetent there
16:04<andythenorth>I just found one of the reasons I hate FIRS
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16:06<andythenorth>gah I hate farms
16:06<andythenorth>I've done them all wrong
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16:08<andythenorth>lo planetmaker
16:09<@planetmaker>what's 'all wrong' about farms, andythenorth?
16:09<@planetmaker>how they work? how they look? their overall existence?
16:09<@Alberth>they are too much left, otherwise they would be right :)
16:10<andythenorth>they're fun with one cargo
16:10<andythenorth>I like the clustering
16:10<andythenorth>as soon as I want to ship both cargos and/or deliver supplies
16:10<andythenorth>I either have horrible contention
16:10<andythenorth>or I have to surround each farm with infrastructure
16:10<andythenorth>which is (a) boring (b) dumb (c) doesn't look nice
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16:12<andythenorth>I want to do something evil
16:12<andythenorth>each farm cluster also gains a farm supply drop off industry
16:12<@planetmaker>or rather >:-O
16:12<andythenorth>and industries can communicate :P
16:13<andythenorth>which o/c they can't :P
16:13<andythenorth>if I was using trains or boats I could use autorefit and backload supplies
16:13<andythenorth>but serving all farms with trains or boats also looks stupid
16:14<andythenorth>and HEQS trams shouldn't autorefit (they do, but then the game throws nice error messages :D )
16:14<andythenorth>in summary, I don't like unwinnable problems
16:14<andythenorth>there's no win condition that can be reached here with the available tools :P
16:18<@planetmaker>what's wrong with using RV to supply farms from a nearby depot (=transfer station)?
16:19<andythenorth>too many stations :)
16:19<andythenorth>the problem isn't specific to farms really; it's specific to the number of cargos to pickup / dropoff
16:19<@planetmaker>one per farm? :-)
16:19<andythenorth>it just looks stupid at farms, whereas at processing industries it looks correct
16:20<andythenorth>pickup stations block, so waiting loops etc are needed
16:20<andythenorth>I can't actually think of a good solution beyond complaining ;)
16:20<andythenorth>I offered 'farms are one big industry' but it seemed unpopular
16:21<andythenorth>I guess changing supplies algorithm might count as a fix
16:21<andythenorth>one big delivery occasionally instead of trying to get small deliveries through the congestion
16:21<@planetmaker>for farms with short path to supply depot you can forgo the "full load" order and just use normal load. Thus won't block
16:22<@planetmaker>with road side stops it won't even really show much
16:22<@Alberth>give up on trying to get maximum amount of cargo from them?
16:23<@planetmaker>maybe :-P
16:24<@planetmaker>with really max production... it's difficult to use only one. But a few well-placed stops do. As one station
16:25<andythenorth>not using full load might be plausible if I can match vehicles to output better
16:25<andythenorth>someone had a patch for something like 'wait in depot until station is free' or such
16:25<andythenorth>would prevent blocking
16:26<andythenorth>bit fiddly
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16:27<@planetmaker>station will be free, if you don't use full load
16:27<@planetmaker>or you really have too many vehicles
16:27<andythenorth>what rules out the "load at least x%" idea that's suggested occasionally ?
16:27<@planetmaker>rather you need means to time schedule the vehicles properly
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16:28<andythenorth>I should maybe match vehicles to output
16:28<andythenorth>trams have 4x monthly output
16:28<andythenorth>so take 4 months to load
16:29<andythenorth>but travel time means more smaller vehicles would be needed
16:29<andythenorth>and that's higher capital cost
16:30<andythenorth>there's no obvious single cause or fix for this
16:30<andythenorth>rv-wagons would allow a tram to have one supply vehicle at the end
16:30<andythenorth>changing FIRS supplies would allow occasional large deliveries
16:30<andythenorth>inter-industry communication would allow a completely different approach to supplies
16:31<andythenorth>could do this as a town-effect cargo :P
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16:34<andythenorth>my game is building missing industries
16:34<andythenorth>Alberth: if the game had *lots* of missing types it might not play catchup so well?
16:35<andythenorth>whereas if there are few it has a better chance?
16:35<andythenorth>or does it adjust required amounts proportionally?
16:35<andythenorth>ah, also frequency matters
16:37<@Alberth>the missing industry types that are forced to exist are separately handled from the random count, and take priority, except that there has to be missing industries
16:37<@Alberth>(as pointed out by Eddi)
16:39<@Alberth>I don't remember what happens exactly when it is up-to-date, it might just verify that the probabilities have not changed, and quit
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16:41*Alberth doubts the action 2 in the cb tut defines 133 loading stages :p
16:41<@planetmaker>hehe, rather not. iirc you can only have 4
16:42<andythenorth>Alberth: ok, it's interesting to watch opening on a FIRS game
16:42<andythenorth>it's not science :P
16:42<andythenorth>I know have 0 slots, I think all available chains have at least one instance
16:42<andythenorth>but some are in small proportion
16:43<andythenorth>I need to try using cb22 to dump their probability to maximum maybe
16:43<andythenorth>but to make that work I have to count industries to prevent spamming the map with the new type over 50 years or so :P
16:43<andythenorth>and that needs map scaling too
16:44<andythenorth>not tonight :)
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16:45<@Alberth> <-- what's the 85 in sprite 13 ? says it's a num-loadtypes
16:45<andythenorth>I have vehicles that will take >70 years to pay back their purchase cost :)
16:45<@Alberth>no sleep tonight thus :)
16:46<andythenorth>var size(?)
16:46<andythenorth>I am no good with terms
16:46<drac_boy>70 years..why?
16:46<andythenorth>that's a word
16:46<andythenorth>$7k purchase, $100/year profit
16:46<andythenorth>Alberth: that varaction2 is checking a word sized var
16:47<andythenorth>the one above is checking a byte, hence 81 there
16:47<andythenorth>you'll see the ranges in each are appropriately word and byte sized too
16:47<andythenorth>you need varaction 2 spec, not action 2 spec
16:48<drac_boy>does it only carry like 1 or 2 tonnes of cargo?
16:49<@Alberth>how should I reach that conclusion?
16:49<@Alberth>drac_boy: or too close to make any useful profit, or too slow, or too high running cost, or ... :)
16:50<andythenorth>it carries 4 crates
16:52<@Alberth>one thing that might be useful to change is to check the percentage of missing industries instead of the count.
16:53<andythenorth>so try to build the idealised ratio according to probabilities?
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16:54<andythenorth>what's the actual issue I see?
16:54<andythenorth>- num. industries matters where enough primaries are needed to supply a secondary with decent production
16:55<andythenorth>- num industries slightly matters on larger maps, to avoid huge distances between supply / accept, but that could be solved by cb28
16:55<andythenorth>second reason is a non-reason actually
16:56<@Alberth>right, so action 3 assumes variational action 2 instead of normal action 2?
16:56<@Alberth>grr, why didn't they give them a new action number
16:57<andythenorth>action 3 is happy with an action 2 or varaction 2
16:57<andythenorth>it's easier if you turn sanity checks off in your brain
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16:58<andythenorth>nfo is completely fine (except stations)
16:58<@Belugas>that would make an excellent boy movie... it does not lack actions...
16:58<andythenorth>but don't expect a nice design
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16:58<@Alberth>I always had the idea that computers did not do magic, but I must be too stupid
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16:59<@Alberth>first issue should be solvable with correct industry probabilities
16:59<@Alberth>assuming there is enough room for constructing industries
16:59<andythenorth>assuming that
16:59<andythenorth>things look better on my flat map
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16:59<andythenorth>I usually play mountainous
16:59<andythenorth>flat has plenty of space for new types etc
17:00<andythenorth>btw, I learnt nfo by taking zephyris' uncommented one line sprites, and breaking them to multi-lines with comments
17:00<andythenorth>turns out 50% of my comments were wrong, but code still worked :P
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17:00<andythenorth>understanding is not 100% essential for nfo :P
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17:00<@Alberth>you probably need the terraforming fix to get more industries built
17:01<@Alberth>well, it helps a lot when you can find out what page to read :p
17:01<@Alberth>well, enough today, good night andy
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17:03*andythenorth bed too
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17:31<andythenorth>flat docks please
17:31<andythenorth>for use on rivers
17:31<andythenorth>k thx bai
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17:36<Starlight>.. Little does he know that rivers are objects. :s
17:37<drac_boy>Starlight yeah, wonder where he got that confused :)
17:37<Starlight>Lol. I don't know the under laying workings of OpenTTD, but rivers can be blown up. :P
17:39<Starlight>GRF just seems to be a headache to me.. and if I were to code anything, I have to make sure it's compatible with [insert cargo/trainset/tracks/roads/station here].
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17:44<drac_boy>starlight I don't really see any need to..just make it generic, its rather simple
17:44<Starlight>Hm. I might take a crack at it some day.
17:45<drac_boy>although tracks do have a bit difficulity with different track gauge in term of pixels :/ (eg NG tracks need narrower platform clearances than SG ones)
17:45<Starlight>Yeah, understandable.
17:46*Zuu_ just posted yet another Game Script.
17:46<Zuu_>Although in this case, it is actually not for players, but for people who want to write their own GS and might have use for my template GS.
17:50<drac_boy>starlight mind you I'm sorta still debating the cargo labels in my slowly-coming-along grf yet :-s
17:51<Starlight>Yeah. Was going to use ECS, but noticed it and NARS2 isn't too compatible at a certain year frame.
17:51<drac_boy>at least the rolling stock list is almost finished..just some missing holes especially re no late goods wagons etc
17:51<@planetmaker>very nice idea, Zuu_ :-)
17:52<drac_boy> I'm not planning to use any existing industries/cargos just yet tho..
17:54<@planetmaker>a cargo is a common name associated with a label and some properties which sort-of describe it like weight per unit and payment rates
17:55<Zuu_>planetmaker: it have been staying around on my harddrive for several months now and SquireJames interest into creating a GS gave me the final push to tidy it up and publish for others to use too.
17:56<Zuu_>While I agree on the non-war wishes, I think that its better to let him experiment and do his thing and see what he may come up with.
17:57<Zuu_>He could easily add a parameter to enable/disable war events as long as there are other events too.
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17:57<@planetmaker>I must have missed that thread them. I concur with your view, though
17:58<Zuu_> <-- thread
17:59<@planetmaker>oh, I posted there :D
17:59<@planetmaker>3 months 5 months ago...
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18:43<NGC3982>Im dissapointed.
18:44<NGC3982>I have not yet seen a Curiosity GRF.
18:44*NGC3982 taps his wooden leg on the floor, giggles and goes to slep.
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19:14<argoneus>Can anyone here help me with AI development?
19:14<argoneus>Or is this chat about the game only
19:18<@Terkhen>argoneus: this channel is for anything AI related
19:19<@Terkhen>but right now most of the usuals are sleeping already
19:19<argoneus>I don't quite understand how lists here work
19:19<argoneus>for example, I can't get it to print the list of towns alphabetically
19:20<@Terkhen>I don't know much about AI development myself, so I can't help you
19:20<argoneus>I see
19:20<@Terkhen>you might want to give the AI development subforum a try
19:20<@Terkhen>and, IIRC, there are tutorials at the wiki
19:20<argoneus>I'm following those
19:22<@planetmaker>argoneus: and you had a look at existing AIs as well?
19:22<argoneus>planetmaker: yes, but they are extremely complex
19:22<argoneus>for me anyway
19:24<@planetmaker>Hm, yes. Maybe indeed ask your question in the AI section of the forums. "Better" IRC times are evening hours instead of post-midnight in European times :-)
19:24<argoneus>sleeping is for scrubs
19:25*planetmaker suddenly grows grey-green leaves
19:25<@planetmaker>who knows what people really do when they "go to sleep" ;-)
19:26<@Terkhen>I was going to sleep myself before I saw that question :P
19:26<@Terkhen>so good night
19:28<@planetmaker>good night Terkhen :-)
19:28<@planetmaker>time for me, too, actually
19:32<Wolf01>and for me too, night all
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19:47<Mazur>I usually go and read a bit.
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---Logclosed Thu Aug 16 00:00:21 2012