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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-08-16

---Logopened Thu Aug 16 00:00:21 2012
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03:05<dihedral>hello
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03:28<NGC3982>What a hellish morning.
03:31<NGC3982>http://www.indiegogo.com/teslamuseum
03:31<NGC3982>That made it a bit brighter.
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04:37<Wolf01>'morning o/
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07:08<drac_boy>hi
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07:58<@Belugas>hello
07:59<drac_boy>hi belugas
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08:10<@Terkhen>hello
08:12<drac_boy>hi Terkhen
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09:07<NGC3982>Im about to arrange "BarTTD".
09:10<Sacro>oh/
09:14<drac_boy>heh..what is that? :)
09:19<NGC3982>We are to gather in a pub (reservated, of course)
09:19<NGC3982>Eat good food, drink good drinks and play good Openttd on laptops.
09:19<NGC3982>I have already arranged the site and time.
09:19<lugo>neat!
09:19<NGC3982>Im have yet to decide how to make this more of an online event, though.
09:20<NGC3982>Like, a Facebook event and a bigger forum post, i guess.
09:20<lugo>heh, will you be using goal scripts?
09:20<Sacro>what country?
09:20<drac_boy>heh, NGC3982 is the game only for these in the pub or others from across the country can join into the online fun too?
09:20<NGC3982>No, not really. I guess it's more of a fun-GRF thing then actual competing.
09:21<NGC3982>drac_boy: I don't know. What do you think?
09:21<lugo>you didn't ask me but still, i'd make it open, why not.. :)
09:22<NGC3982>Yeah, sure.
09:22<drac_boy>NGC3982 well I guess the two main questions would be: which trainset and what build version?
09:22<drac_boy>:)
09:22<NGC3982>Well, the important thing is that we play and have fun together, the rest is kinda irrelevant.
09:22<lugo>NUTS! :p
09:23<NGC3982>But i guess a FIRS+NUTS game would be nice.
09:23<V453000>anyone really plays nuts? /surprised
09:23<drac_boy>mm sounds ok... what ottd build tho?
09:23*drac_boy pokes V453000
09:23<NGC3982>drac_boy: The ..latest, i guess?
09:23<NGC3982>:D
09:23<drac_boy>why do you think it was released if noone would use it :P
09:23<V453000>idk I have my ring of people who use it but I obviously have no clue about the "general public" .p
09:23<drac_boy>NGC3982 hmm we'll see but I only have chill or patch here most of the times atm ... but even if I don't join I'm sure you all would have fun anyway
09:24<drac_boy>V453000 :P
09:24<NGC3982>drac_boy: :)
09:25<V453000>but yeah combination with firs is nice :p
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09:29<lugo>i wonder if usage of hot-air-baloons could be made somewhat beneficial, so that the map is getting a little more colored :D
09:29<drac_boy>heh
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09:34<V453000>I personally like opengfx+ industries, that meks it colored too if you use nuts; with all these cargoes you get all the colourful wagons :p
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09:42<drac_boy>I'm still partial to HEQS .. anyone else too? :)
09:46<andythenorth>not me
09:46<NGC3982>HEQS?
09:47<drac_boy>NGC3982 the tram/road grf
09:47<drac_boy>mostly freights :)
09:47<drac_boy>hmm been a while I forgot who the creator of that grf was now
09:47*NGC3982 googles.
09:48<NGC3982>Who ever it is, it's probably andythenorth.
09:48<NGC3982>;)
09:48<drac_boy>heh?
09:48<NGC3982>"Author:andythenorth, Zephyris "
09:48<NGC3982>Hahaha
09:48<NGC3982>:D
09:49<drac_boy>NGC3982 either way I sometimes have a network of various tram lines running in every directions .. I guess thats the fun thing about having slow but high-capacity signals-not-needed vehicles :)
09:49<NGC3982>:)
09:50<drac_boy>only if it was plausible to build trams just like you build trains but I suspect thats too much re-coding to be worth it atm tho
09:50<drac_boy>so refitting for different cargos and lengths seem like a fair workaround for now
09:50<andythenorth>it's crappy
09:50<andythenorth>but nobody cares :(
09:50<andythenorth>woe is andythenorth
09:51<drac_boy>heh :P
09:51<drac_boy>well just so you know I'll always play heqs unless it decide to take a backward change for some reason :)
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09:57<lugo>i'm personally waiting on roadtypes before i start to complain about heqs :p
09:58<drac_boy>lugo why? :)
09:58<andythenorth>complain anyway
09:59<andythenorth>roadtypes will *never* happen, money on it
09:59<lugo>this feature would make heqs much more interesting, and i would play much more with it, thus gaining things to complain about
09:59<NGC3982>Any particular reason?
09:59<drac_boy>lugo still doesn't make much sense to me?
09:59<NGC3982>Wait, with "road types" we are talking more than esthetics, i guess.
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10:08<drac_boy>what kind of road types were there supposed to be anyway?
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11:05<andythenorth>blah
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11:20<drac_boy>hi BenTrein
11:30<BenTrein>Hey
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11:35<drac_boy>how're you?
11:35<BenTrein>:) Good. You?
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11:40<LordAro>afternoons
11:41-!-drush [~drush@93-94-245-84.dynamic.swissvpn.net] has joined #openttd
11:41<drush>hello everyone!
11:42-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f65f6.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
11:44<drush>anyone knows here that OTTD has got press coverage in this month's polish CHiP mag?
11:46<drac_boy>doing ok BenTrein just trying to sort out a few little things
11:47<BenTrein>Such as...
11:47<drac_boy>not to mention adding certain patch downloads to my upcoming website as well...oh and to figure out whats for lunch soon :-s
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11:52<argoneus>hello
11:52<argoneus>why is this channel not on freenode?
11:52<argoneus>;_;
11:52<BenTrein>No idea.
11:53<Rubidium>because of a certain operator spamming us quite often for money or so
11:53<LordAro>'a certain' ?
11:53<drush>argoneus freenode is a bad network
11:53<drush>no sane person should allow themselves to associate with them
11:54*drac_boy actually uses freenode a lot with not one single issue
11:55<argoneus>I frequent about 12 freenode channels
11:56<argoneus>on OFCT I frequent only one
11:56<argoneus>can you guess which?
11:56<argoneus>:P
11:56<argoneus>OFTC*
11:56<drush>you gentlemen probably don't know about 2 things then
11:57<drac_boy>argoneus yeah .. oftc is a low server just like many others .. to put it that way
11:58<drush>Rob Levin faked his death and then started to embezzle the network from Europe
11:59<drush>second, it took Freenode a month to fix an XPS vuln in their ircd
11:59<drush>whereas OTFC fixed it in a day
12:01<drac_boy>and why does otfc not even have any major channels at all then?
12:02<drush>a lot of people probably don't know about those shady episodes of freenode's history
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12:03<drush>can't blame people for not knowing history, people just want to use irc
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12:11<Phos>i got a question
12:11<drush>feel free to ask Phos
12:12<Phos>if there is a possibility to ajust the ratio between the industries
12:12<Phos>so that there are 4 coal mines and only one powerplant
12:12<Phos>and so on
12:12<LordAro>without an industry grf, i think that is not (yet, of course) possible
12:12<drush>4 production plants per 1 consumption plant?
12:13<Phos>industry grf?
12:13<LordAro>like ECS Vectors, FIRS, w/e
12:13<Phos>i got industries 0.3.4
12:13<Phos>is that what you mean?
12:14<LordAro>maybe
12:14<LordAro>which OTTD version do you have?
12:15<Phos>because there are so many options, sinde i played this game (2008 or so)
12:15<Phos>the newest
12:15<Phos>1.2.2 RC1
12:15<LordAro>that won't be a problem then :L
12:16<LordAro>can you specify what you mean by "industries 0.3.4" ?
12:16<LordAro>a screenshot might help
12:17<Phos>its "New GFX+Industries 0.3.4"
12:17<Phos>is this only graphics?
12:18<LordAro>i think it is in fact "OpenGFX+ Industries" , although that may be a translation issue
12:18-!-Arafangion [~Arafangio@119.234.1.234] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:18<Phos>btw, thanks for the help
12:18<argoneus>can anyone help me with AI development
12:18<argoneus>?
12:19<argoneus>or is this only for discussion like 'how to make money"
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12:19<LordAro>Phos: either way, iirc, OGFX+ industries does not provide that sort of functionality
12:20<Phos>okay
12:20<Rubidium>argoneus: how long have you frequented freenode? I reckon not long enough ;)
12:20<Phos>and is there an easy way to configure the ratio`?
12:20<Phos>if not, no problem
12:20<argoneus>Rubidium: a year
12:20<argoneus>or so
12:20<Phos>if, nice to have
12:21<Rubidium>argoneus: for example Debian, openstreetmaps, qemu, gcc are on oftc
12:21<drac_boy>think its been hmm 7 or 8 years since the first freenode contact .. first channel ironically was a commerical linux distro thats now long gone
12:22<Rubidium>argoneus: www.openttd.org/news/26
12:22<argoneus>um
12:22<argoneus>but #debian exists on freenode
12:22<argoneus>so does gcc
12:22<argoneus>with 50+ users
12:22<drac_boy>argoneus so does most distros and libs anyway
12:23<LordAro>Phos: you can suggest the feature here: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=54187
12:23<argoneus>anyway
12:23<argoneus>can someone help me with Ai development?
12:23<argoneus>I don't get one thing and it confuses me
12:23<Phos>okay, i will do this, thx for the help, have a nice day
12:23<LordAro>np
12:23<Rubidium>argoneus: 517 for Debian and 134 for gcc on OFTC
12:24<argoneus>1222 on freenode
12:24<argoneus>126 for gcc
12:24<Rubidium>e.g. irc.debian.org == oftc.net
12:25<LordAro>argoneus: what is the 'thing' ?
12:25<argoneus>basically, if I declare local adj = AITileList(); it should initialize an empty tile list
12:25<argoneus>then if I add a rectangle to it, it should add the respective tiles in the rectangle to it
12:25<argoneus>but then if I do
12:25<argoneus>foreach (i, tile in adj)
12:25<argoneus>I assumed 'tile' was the ID of the tile
12:25<argoneus>and 'i' was the current iteration
12:26<argoneus>but if I print 'i' it prints the ID of the tile
12:26<argoneus>and 'tile' prints gibberish
12:26<argoneus>what's going on
12:26<LordAro>damn, lists, never did understand lists properly :L
12:27<LordAro>and it probably doesn't help that i've done no squirrel work in months
12:27<LordAro>you're probably better off attracting the attention of Zuu
12:27<argoneus>who is that?
12:27<LordAro>he frequents the channel, and the forums
12:28<LordAro>SuperLib, PAXLink and CluelessPLus, i think
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13:12<@Yexo>argoneus: an AIList (which AITileList is a subclass of) is basically a map with key=>value pairs
13:12<@Yexo>foreach is defined as "foreach (key, value in list)"
13:12<@Yexo>in a tilelist the keys are the tiles
13:14<@Yexo>the values should all be zero after the call to AddRectangle()
13:14<argoneus>oh so it's a hash
13:15<@Yexo>not actually a hash, just a map
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13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r24474 /trunk/src/lang/luxembourgish.txt:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: luxembourgish - 29 changes by Phreeze
14:08<andythenorth>la la la
14:13<andythenorth>haven't found a pleasing solution to farms yet
14:13<andythenorth>I could add a farm supplies wagon to every HEQS tram?
14:13<andythenorth>which doesn't refit with the other vehicles
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14:13<andythenorth>lo Alberth
14:14<andythenorth>then FMSP could be delivered back by the same trams that are loading cargo
14:14<andythenorth>hmm
14:14<andythenorth>I could also force HEQS trams to be mixed
14:14<@Alberth>'lo, andy
14:14<andythenorth>I would need to add more refittable subtypes
14:15<andythenorth>e.g. "75t in 9 wagons, carrying cargos for FIRS Dairy Farms"
14:15<andythenorth>"75t in 9 wagons, carrying cargos for FIRS Mixed Farms"
14:15<andythenorth>I'd probably need to do ECS too
14:15<andythenorth>"75t in 9 wagons for ECS Crop Farms"
14:15<andythenorth>etc
14:16<andythenorth>might as well do default farms too
14:16<andythenorth>that would be about 10 or 12 combinations I think
14:16<andythenorth>and there are 3 different lengths per tram
14:16<@Alberth>"lots of stuff for someone"
14:16<andythenorth>so that's another 30 refits or so in refit menu
14:17<andythenorth>maybe I should make dedicated farm trams
14:17<andythenorth>and mine trams
14:17<andythenorth>and forest trams
14:17<andythenorth>etc
14:17*andythenorth counts trams in HEQS
14:17<andythenorth>there about 14 trams right now
14:17<andythenorth>most would need duplicating
14:18<andythenorth>I could produce one for each possible cargo combination
14:18<andythenorth>hmm
14:18<andythenorth>what if cargos are not equal in ratio?
14:19<andythenorth>do I need to do 1:1 Milk / Livestock; 1:2 Milk / Livestock; 2:1 Milk / Livestock etc?
14:20*andythenorth has a better idea
14:20<andythenorth>could do them as trains
14:22<andythenorth>ho
14:22<andythenorth>if I do trams as a railtype
14:22<andythenorth>and mining trucks as a railtype
14:22<andythenorth>I can make one convertible to other
14:22<andythenorth>:)
14:25*andythenorth has an idea
14:25<andythenorth>can we rescale the entire game?
14:27<@Belugas>yeah, good idea
14:27<@Belugas>and we'll write it in Delphi!
14:27<@Belugas>with an XML interface to the maps gnegnegne!
14:27<Kjetil_>and port it to windows 8!
14:27<andythenorth>it's only the sprites I'm talking about :P
14:27<andythenorth>don't get over-dramatic :P
14:27<andythenorth>if we change the scale
14:28<@Belugas>htat, Kjetil_... is ... kinda stupid...
14:28<andythenorth>then roads can be implemented as railtypes
14:28<andythenorth>one per lane
14:28<Kjetil_>Belugas: ;)
14:28<@Belugas>andythenorth, i'm just gooding ;)
14:28<andythenorth>I don't think it would take long to redraw everything 2x larger
14:28<andythenorth>or 4x larger
14:29<andythenorth>only about 10 years
14:29<andythenorth>but newgrf is 10 years old already right?
14:29<andythenorth>we need to start thinking long term
14:29<andythenorth>where might the game be in 100 years?
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14:31<Rubidium>andythenorth: out of version numbers ;)
14:31<andythenorth>what's the upper limit?
14:31<@Alberth>infinity - 1
14:32<Rubidium>@calc (1**19)-1
14:32<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 0
14:32<Rubidium>@calc (2**19)-1
14:32<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 524287
14:32<Rubidium>15.15.15.524287
14:33<@Alberth>about 50 10K parties away :p
14:34<andythenorth>Alberth: played a game recently?
14:35*andythenorth considers playing some kind of FIRS game for stitch-and-bitch purposes
14:35<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r24475 /branches/1.2/ (5 files in 4 dirs): [1.2] -Update: some documentation
14:35<andythenorth>in MP
14:35<@Alberth>Aisleriot Solitaire, about 5 minutes ago, does that count?
14:35<andythenorth>yes
14:35<andythenorth>of course
14:36<andythenorth>I should _probably_ do work instead
14:36<andythenorth>I have lots of product tickets I want to get done
14:36<andythenorth>and some customers I'd like to be happy
14:40<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r24476 /tags/1.2.2/ (10 files in 4 dirs): -Release: 1.2.2
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14:47<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r24477 /trunk/ (6 files in 3 dirs): -Merge: documentation updates from 1.2.
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15:37<LordAro>evenings
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15:41<@Alberth>hi hi
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15:59<LordAro>can someone moar cleverer than me take a look at this? http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5236 i'm kinda stuck...
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16:04<@Yexo>do you have a new diff?
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16:08<@Yexo>LordAro: you documented that FindScript/HasBaseSet can return NULL, but GetTextFile doesn't check the return value
16:09<@Yexo>that might be correct (if there is a hidden precondition so those functions are not allowed to return NULL in this case), but it's probably the cause for your segfault
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16:14<Eddi|zuHause>is the topic outdated?
16:14-!-Yexo changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.2.2 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only
16:15<@Yexo>of course not :p
16:15<Kjetil_>s/1.2.2/$VERSION/
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16:22<LordAro>Yexo: that'll be it, thanks
16:23-!-user56257 [5c32f4b5@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
16:24<LordAro>hmm, so strecpy does not like you copying NULL into a string then :L
16:26<@Yexo>nope
16:26<@Yexo>see string.cpp:145
16:26<user56257>hi ppl. i need an advice on moving to monorail. How to save orders to new trains from old? Thanx in advance.
16:27<@Alberth>build a new depot, build a train, copy the orders from the old one
16:27<@Yexo>1) build new train first, copy orders from old train, sell old train
16:27<@Yexo>2) make sure there is only a single train in the depot, sell the train, convert the depot (while the depot window stays open), build new train. The new train will have exactly the same orders as the old one
16:27<user56257>after sending all trains to deports there are several trains in one depot
16:28<@Yexo>so use the other method :)
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>then 2) won't work
16:28<user56257>Yexo: will try now 1)
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>there's also 3) use "universal railtype" newgrf
16:29<@Alberth>user56257: but copying orders is boring, I usually review the network, and start replacing/rebuilding/extending/streamlining it
16:29*Kjetil_ had a patch to the old openttd code-based that would convert depots with trains in them
16:29<@Alberth>the trouble is convert to what :p
16:29<user56257>hmm.. copying orders? how to copy?
16:29<@Yexo>when I play I usually never upgrade to monorail
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>or 4) use vehicle NewGRFs that don't force/discourage you to convert to monorail/maglev
16:30<@Yexo>when a train has no orders and you click "go to" then click on another train, it'll copy the orders from that train
16:30<Kjetil_>Alberth: indeed. It was hardcoded to the cheapest model of the new railtype
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>user56257: when you click "go to" then don't click on a station, but click on a train
16:30<user56257>Yexo: oh thanx again, will try
16:30<@Alberth>Kjetil_: so useful, so you had to replace all your trains twice? :)
16:32<Kjetil_>Alberth: heh. Usually you only have one traintype available for the next-gen track any way
16:32<@Alberth>with the default set, yeah. Don't know what the other vehicle newgrfs do
16:33<andythenorth>Alberth: reading your nice reply on industries...
16:33<andythenorth>"I don't believe closing unserviced industries is bad in itself."
16:33<andythenorth>+1 ^
16:33<andythenorth>think I make a mistake with that in FIRS, for secondaries at least
16:34<@Alberth>you're too eager trying to please your users with every wish they have :)
16:35<@Alberth>user56257: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=62164
16:36<andythenorth>Alberth: I'm currently playing with secondary closure off :P
16:36<andythenorth>why?
16:37<andythenorth>because I have an 1870-start game with slow trams, and no money
16:37<andythenorth>by the time I get money, lots of secondaries will start closing in waves :P
16:37<andythenorth>I'm now confident they will get replaced
16:38<andythenorth>but they might break the planned chains I'm building at game start
16:38<andythenorth>maybe I should just accept random chance :)
16:39<andythenorth>some way of reserving industries would be nice :P
16:39<andythenorth>can't think how that would be done though
16:39<user56257>omg it works, but i thinks my economics will suffer due to such a huge replacing
16:39<user56257>not by money, but by time
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16:43<drac_boy>hi
16:43<andythenorth>Alberth: did some replies (short) :)
16:43<@Alberth>andythenorth: just after you introduced new industries, increase the number of industries in the world
16:44<andythenorth>that's the route I favour too
16:44<drac_boy>btw was just wondering about that thing someone mentioned before, can you actually make the map creator check for how many A industries to B induestries?
16:44<andythenorth>not currently
16:45<Zuu>Hmm, so someone re-suffled the parameter orders of Graph.AyStar between version 4 and 6. The RoadPathFinder(RPF) for AI uses version 4, but the NoGo-version will have to use version 6 as there is no version 4 of AyStar for NoGo.
16:45<andythenorth>hmm
16:45<Zuu>So either SuperLib need to overload the RPF differently for NoGo or AI, or I need to update the RPF for AIs too to use AyStar 6.
16:46<LordAro>Yexo/anyone-else-who-cares: done! http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5236
16:46<LordAro>Zuu: update the road pathfinder? :P
16:46<andythenorth>one other thing that can cause strange results (it's correct behaviour btw) - when I add a new type to FIRS, the relative probability of other types is then reduced
16:46<andythenorth>which is correct maths, but might have unintended consequences
16:46<@Yexo>Zuu: after frosch123 pointed me to it I've now made your "Minimal GS" topic sticky
16:46<drac_boy>mm ok just wanted to know, thanks andythenorth
16:46<Zuu>Which in term means that evry AI that use RPF and overload any of the callbacks need to update their AIs too.
16:46<@Yexo>should be easier to find this way for new people in the future
16:46<Zuu>(when they upload a new version)
16:47<Zuu>Or I could make AyStar 7 that reverts the re-suffle of parameter order.
16:47<@Yexo>which function are you talking about?
16:48<Zuu>_Cost _Estimate etc.
16:49<Zuu>In v4 of AyStar the _pf_instance parameter is at the end of the function arguments. In v6 it has moved to the front and pushed back the other arguments one step.
16:50<andythenorth>je vais au lit
16:50<andythenorth>bonsoir
16:50<Zuu>Or I could port AyStar 4 to NoGo and release it as "AyStar Classic" and use that for the NoGo RPF to keep the RPF for AI intact while also creating a nogo RPF that is compatible with it.
16:51<Zuu>I don't plan to actually use any of the news in AyStar 6 vs 4 in the RPF code.
16:51<@Yexo>I can't find back those changes in the aystar repository
16:52<Zuu>I have a diff between 4 and 6 if you are interested.
16:52<@Yexo>and it's way too long ago to remember about it
16:52<Zuu>indeed
16:52<@Alberth>good night andy
16:52<Zuu>some of the comments in v6 have not been changed to reflect the re-suffle of the arguments.
16:53<frosch123>night
16:53<@Alberth>and good night to all
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16:53<@Yexo>Zuu: as far as I can see the change was: -"Provide callback functions" +"Provide instance that has functions"
16:54<@Yexo>hmm, sorry
16:54<@Yexo>not exactly, but it's not simply shuffling the parameters
16:54<@Yexo>it's replacing 4 parameters by 1
16:55<@Yexo>nvm, I finally get it
16:55<@Yexo>you're right of course
16:55<Zuu>It contains some internal changes too, but the biggest problem is the change in the interface.
16:56<@Yexo>I do however think that the method used by A* 6 is better, as you should now be able to pass member functions instead of only static functions
16:56<@Yexo>or at least, that seems to be the intend of the changes
16:56<Zuu>The solution that probably give least bad effects is to release "AyStar 4 for NoGo" and build the NoGo port of the RPF on that one creating a NoGo RPF that is completely compatible with the AI RPF without touching the AI RPF.
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16:57<@Yexo>that depends, if there are other updates too now might be a good time to release an updated AI RPF (with the interface changes)
16:58<@Yexo>on the other hand: are there any interface changes needed for an updated RPF?
16:58<Zuu>I don't have any AI RPF changes that I wish to include in the core.
16:59<Zuu>I do have some extensions offered in SuperLib, but I also know that other AI authors have derived their own extensions with the RPF as base.
17:00<@Yexo>is it that big a deal to ask AI authors to update a few lines of code?
17:00<@Yexo>it's not that many people
17:01*LordAro raises his hand
17:01<LordAro>:)
17:01<Zuu>Its not a big job to ask them, but those who don't read the question may spend time hunting strange bugs until they realize that the bug is caused by an API change.
17:01<Zuu>It took me some time to figure it out between AyStar 4 and 6.
17:03<@Yexo>still I think now would be a good time to get everyone's code based on the same version again and make A* 4 really obsolete
17:06<Zuu>I agree that it is a choise that have an impact here. If we move RPF to A* 6 for AI and NoGo, anyone who uploads an AI after that will be forced to update his code to A* 6.
17:07<Zuu>If you derive your own RPF based on the Bananas RPF, you typically override _Cost and _Neighbours, so there would be about 10 AIs or more that would be forced to update.
17:07<@Yexo>oh, I didn't realize that RPF as on bananas still uses A* v4
17:09<@Yexo>still AIs are not forced to update to a newer RPF
17:10<Zuu>Of course they could copy RPF 3 from their hard drive and include in their AI in place of the bananas RPF if they refuse to use the new RPF 4.
17:10<Zuu>But they cannot use an old RPF as dependency through the banans web interface.
17:10<@Yexo>:(
17:10<@Yexo>that's bad for libraries
17:10<Zuu>Indeed
17:10<@Yexo>TrueBrain: ^^ is that something that would be easy to fix?
17:11<Zuu>TrueBrain: To clarify, allow people to select old versions of a library as dependency
17:12<Zuu>If it would be easy for them to just stay at v3, it would not be that bad to upload a v4 with a different interface.
17:13<Zuu>I guess allowing old versions itself is not that hard to do, but the dependency list will grow much longer :-)
17:23<Zuu>While at content distribution, good work LordAro with the text file patches :-)
17:23<LordAro>thanks :)
17:24<LordAro>apart from the guidance from Yexo an hour or 2 ago, i did this one pretty much all by myself :)
17:26<Zuu>:-)
17:36<drac_boy>I know its a crazy idea but I was kinda just thinking about that new aircraft distance thing and wondering, couldn't it also happen to certain rail locomotives too? (counting depot and station altogether as a refuel point as well)
17:36<Zuu>Yexo: If it cannot be changed (easily) so that AIs can pick the old RPF, would you still recommend updating the AI RPF to A* 6? Or is it in that case better to make a NoGo RPF for A*4 and port A*4 to NoGo?
17:38<Zuu>For me it is about 15 lines of code (at various places over three files) that change on that decision, so I'm happy to pick a decision and then go with it and not jump back and fourth.
17:39<@Yexo>given that the amount of codechanges needed is so small, I'd go for A*6 everywhere and an updated RPF for both
17:40<@Yexo>but both ways are fine: you decide, you're doing the code anyway :p
17:43<+michi_cc>drac_boy: The actual travel distance for a rail vehicle is totally arbitrary, quite in contrast to aircraft.
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17:44<Zuu>A*6 is more future safe for me, but impose work on others :-)
17:44<drac_boy>michi_cc actually..to put it one way: a small shunter with 30 gallons of fuel onboard can not imagine going a long distance without needing to stop? :)
17:44<@Yexo>LordAro: if nobody does it before then (maybe me) I'll make sure to do a proper review/commit of FS#5236 at last this sunday
17:45<LordAro>kk, thanks :D
17:45<@Yexo>Zuu: given the amount of other is so small I wouldn't care too much about that
17:46<+michi_cc>But how are you going to know if it is going a long distance or not? There might be a short path of e.g. 5 tiles or whatever, but depending on signal states the chosen path might also be 100 long.
17:46<drac_boy>michi_cc how do boats and now planes tell you you can't possibly get to the next point in schedule anyway?
17:47<drac_boy>just asking anyhow, its not like I actually want this feature now
17:49<+michi_cc>The boat thing isn't a good example as it is only in there because of pathfinder implementation limitations. Aircraft in OTTD always travel on a fixed, deterministic path. No kind of obstacle, other vehicle or anything can change that, so (ignoring the waiting loops at the destination airport) the travel distance is fixed.
17:49*Zuu nocies that the ball is probably on him to update FS#5230 for next review. (Its a patch that is a pre-step before my main patch that fix/implement break-on-log for NoGo)
17:50<@Yexo>cool :)
17:51<@Yexo>ping me this weekend and I'll look at it
17:51<Zuu>It is actually quite neat (the main patch). It adds the ability for a game to progress while an AI or NoGo is paused.
17:52<@Yexo>Zuu: I've added you as manager for https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/lib-pathfinderroad
17:52<@Yexo>if you want to, you can commit the changes required to use A*6
17:52<@Yexo>for now: good night
17:52<Zuu>thanks
17:52<Zuu>and good night
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18:26<@Terkhen>good night
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18:44<drac_boy>hi drush
18:45<drush>hi drac_boy
18:45<drush>I think the port will need some patches, configure misses some include dirs, 100% sure of it
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18:49<drac_boy>drush...port?
18:49<drush>the ps3 port
18:51<drac_boy>oh right
18:52<@planetmaker>lol. That's likely, drush
18:52<@planetmaker>Please feel free and encouraged to supply needed patches
18:52<@planetmaker>There's no dev who can maintain or test that
18:53<drush>planetmaker that's why I mailed openttd.org asking about benchmarking
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18:53<drush>because after the building is done I'd definitely like to establish a set of CFLAGS that make the finest build
18:53<@planetmaker>ah. I recall that mail
18:53<drush>for that particular platform
18:54<@planetmaker>finest = fastest? smallest memory? smallest file size? combination?
18:54<drush>for a gaming console, fastest
18:54<drush>unless there will be popular demand for a smaller memory footprint
18:55<@planetmaker>I have an openttd server which crashed on me with oom on a 256MB VM
18:55<drush>ps3 was designed for multitasking
18:55<drush>was not*
18:56<drush>as for the 256MB RAM issue,
18:56<drush>I think it's possible to allocate a temporary swap in gameos
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18:57<drush>multiMAN (backup manager) allocates 2GB of hdd for some reason and treats it as a separate drive, I take that as a hint
18:57<@planetmaker>anyway... I guess you have to test the speed. And yes, we definitely ARE interested in such comparisons
18:57<drush>glad to know
18:57<@planetmaker>a good place to do / discuss so would be the development section in our forums
18:58<@planetmaker>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewforum.php?f=33
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18:59<drush>planetmaker I've yet to see if ottd runs in ps3linux
19:00<drush>if it runs there (212 MB RAM due to being in a vm, also no hardware GL), it will run in gameos
19:00<@planetmaker>Needed RAM is mostly defined by the map size. So... playing small will make a difference
19:01<drush>afaik vanilla ottd has max map of 2Kx2K?
19:04<@planetmaker>yes
19:04<@planetmaker>btw... http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=58021&hilit=profiling+openttd
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19:09<@planetmaker>anyway... good night
19:16<drush>goodnight
19:16<drush>also, if this reaches your scrollback, I just tried openttd with default options on my corei7,
19:17<drush>and starting a 2Kx2K map makes the exe use 57.1MB of memory
19:18<drush>memory peaked to 110MB during autosave
19:31<Wolf01>'night
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19:32<Eddi|zuHause>yes, autosave duplicates the map
19:32<Eddi|zuHause>as a rough estimate, the map uses 9 bytes per tile
19:33<Eddi|zuHause>plus what external storage there is for vehicles and industries etc.
19:33<Eddi|zuHause>in busy games, cargo may take up a great deal of memory
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---Logclosed Fri Aug 17 00:00:25 2012