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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-08-17

---Logopened Fri Aug 17 00:00:26 2012
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03:13<@Terkhen>good morning
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03:33<telanus>morning
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03:52<NGC3982>Morning.
03:53<Supercheese>salve
03:53<dihedral>hey
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04:06*dihedral greets the Mucht
04:06<Mucht>hey there!
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04:55<Wolf01>morning o/
04:55<Supercheese>Good night, actually
04:55<Supercheese>Valete
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05:37<Warod>w 31
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05:57<Dodez>Does the industry grow in FIRS like in vanilla ottd ?
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06:04<drac_boy>hi
06:33<drush>hi
06:37<V453000>helo.
06:42<Phazorx>hola
06:58<drac_boy>how're all you three?
06:59<V453000>this way. https://dl.dropbox.com/u/20419525/HOLY%20SHIT%20ANIMALS.png
07:02<drac_boy>btw was just thinking about this slight odd question, do one-way road affect or not affect trams? I'm guessing latter but hmm
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07:02<V453000>yes, they dont
07:03<drac_boy>yeah I couldn't imagine a tram coming to one facing it and 'freeze' :)
07:03<drac_boy>thanks
07:03<V453000>makes trams a bit less controllable [utterly dumb] .)
07:04<Eddi|zuHause>this whole thing needs a better concept
07:04<Eddi|zuHause>one-way roads are pretty useless
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07:06<V453000>not really it gives road vehicles at least some control similar to train signals
07:06<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause yeah, I've never bothered with the grf that added it to the patch anyway
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07:11<Phazorx>coopers use one way roads to direct road traffic to loading array, you can pack 4 vehicles to single lorry/bus station in that fashion
07:18<V453000>depends where really, sometimes 2way roads do not hurt anything either, but for the sake of at least some system on the network I think you always need at least some 2way roads
07:18<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: ok, it gives you "control"... but what for?
07:19<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: other than forbidding the road that leads across a railway crossing, i have never seen a use for it. and since then, the pathfinder has been adapted to avoid crossings
07:19<V453000>for evading an inevitable mess of 2way roads?
07:20<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: while for rails, making them one-way increases capacity, for road it reduces capacity
07:20<V453000>when you reach serious amount of RVs and need to split traffic into multiple roads, 1ways are 100% necessary
07:20<V453000>yeah, capacity of a single roads; but 2 way roads cant really be managed well in large scale
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07:21<Phazorx>http://blog.openttdcoop.org/files/pictures/busy.PNG
07:21<V453000>RVs would start turning around in spots and doing similar stuff
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07:21<NGC3982>How cute.
07:22<Phazorx>http://blog.openttdcoop.org/files/pictures/pickup1.PNG
07:22<Eddi|zuHause>Phazorx: that only "works" because LV4 does not have articulated vehicles
07:22<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause: what's the problem with a-vehicle?
07:22<Eddi|zuHause>Phazorx: they can't overtake
07:23<Phazorx>i wonder why not
07:23<Eddi|zuHause>it's a code restriction
07:24<V453000>https://dl.dropbox.com/u/20419525/1way_roads.png from http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/images/f/f7/CARnage4999.sav
07:24<V453000>if there were 2way roads, RVs would start to randomly go around stuff
07:24<V453000>it is a bit of an extreme case, but ..
07:25<Eddi|zuHause>there's a road connection missing on the left
07:25<V453000>purposedly
07:25<V453000>you cant really make RVs detect if the line is full or not with a priority so sometimes you just have to cut the option :)
07:27<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: what i mean: if one-way roads would have a sane concept how it can occupy both lanes, it would probably need a much smaller junction
07:27<V453000>well yeah but that doesnt technically change anything in the general logic of road vehicles
07:27<V453000>like ... signals on bridges
07:28<V453000>yeah, allows to make things smaller, but generally doesnt reach anything
07:28<V453000>I think there should remain the decision of "do I waste throughput by 1way road or can I maintain 2way roads"
07:28<V453000>just like "do I have single bridge enough, or do I need to multiply"
07:29<V453000>both making 1way roads "sane" or having signals on bridges would remove such option, adding no other
07:30<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause: why is there such code restriction btw?
07:30<Eddi|zuHause>Phazorx: nobody ever touched that code to adapt it to articulated vehicles
07:30<drac_boy>Phazorx probably to do with first section following second section
07:31<drac_boy>as I recall some time ago there was some bugs about bus leaving depot but the second section did not quite "follow" first one :)
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07:52<drac_boy>what do you think of canals? (not rivers yeah)
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07:54<V453000>ships dont exist in openttd.
07:56<drush>V453000 what do you mean they don't
07:57<V453000>they dont.
08:01<__ln___>they dont or they don't?
08:01<drush>is there a word like "dont"?
08:03<Eddi|zuHause>first result of google is french :)
08:03<Eddi|zuHause>and then lots of "don't"
08:05<drac_boy>-_-
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08:08<drush>http://i.imgur.com/PDoim.png
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08:14<V453000>why do you make a screenshot of empty lake with a shore
08:14<V453000>point invalid
08:14<drush>how?
08:14<drush>the ships are palpable
08:14<Eddi|zuHause>i just see a bunch of pixels... what was the point?
08:15<drush>that they exist
08:15<drush>in ottd
08:15<Eddi|zuHause>pixels exist?
08:15<drush>on a screen
08:16<V453000>photoshopped
08:16<V453000>nothing so stupid exists in openttd
08:16<drush>LOL
08:20<Phazorx>this reminds me of FS#1063
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08:20<drush>http://i.imgur.com/oXdCD.png
08:21<NGC3982>That looks so cute.
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08:22<NGC3982>drush: I dont understand. What's wrong?
08:22<drush>NGC3982 supposedly ships don't exist in this game
08:24<NGC3982>According to what?
08:25<V453000>I like the amount of confusion I caused
08:25<drush>^
08:26<drush>I can agree that they don't exist as a means of making srs cash
08:26<drush>they're helpful for when you can't afford infrastructure
08:27<NGC3982>I think i should leave this discussion before i get some kind of stroke.
08:27<V453000>even if they made billions per second it would not make them less dumb to use
08:28<drush>while they make money, remember about the first principle of investment
08:28<drush>don't waste money
08:28<NGC3982>Im sorry, but different vehicles exists to ccreate diversity, right?
08:28<NGC3982>-c
08:28*drac_boy actually prefers to use ships at times
08:28<drac_boy>NGC3982 agreed with you
08:28<NGC3982>I love ships.
08:28<drush>I prefer ships on small maps because building lots of infrastructure ruins your reputation with local auths
08:29<drush>thus ruining your bzns prospects
08:29*NGC3982 loves hem because they are cute and make up fun games.
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08:30<drush>also, ships are immune to disasters
08:30<drush>afaik
08:31<drush>I never saw a ship get mauled by an incoming train or crash on the landing strip
08:31<drush>but that'd be fun to watch though
08:31<NGC3982>:D
08:33<drush>speaking of disasters,
08:33<drac_boy>heh I use small ships if I'm finding that the land-going option means going a bit of long way around plus long bridge spans .. which sometimes isn't worth it if its only a hundred tonnes each month or so
08:34<drush>http://i.imgur.com/pRJFw.png
08:34<Phazorx>Rubidium... we should have an iceberg-like disaster
08:35<drush>Phazorx I agree
08:35<Phazorx>ships are meant to sink
08:35<drac_boy>Phazorx problem is.. iceberg != tropical
08:35<drac_boy>heh
08:35<Phazorx>drush: this game is actualy about ifrastructure management, ships and planes are 2 vehicle types that require none
08:36<drush>drac_boy in tropical we could have nigerian/somalian pirates instead ;)
08:36<Phazorx>planes at least queue for landings, ships just pile up everywhere defying every imaginable space constraints
08:36<drac_boy>Phazorx did you forgot about landscaping and property useage? :)
08:36<Phazorx>which is none for ships
08:36<drac_boy>Phazorx actually..there is
08:36<drac_boy>docks...the depots...any canals privately owned...etc
08:37<drush>yeah but what he means
08:37<drac_boy>and buoys if you want to count that as land property as well
08:37<Phazorx>6 tiles (and that is including the docks) are you kidding me?
08:37<drush>is that ships can stack on each other
08:37<drac_boy>Phazorx .. more than 10 at times
08:37<drush>planes, cars and trains cannot overlay each other
08:37<Phazorx>oh geez... mainatance for shipline is almsot like a half of my single station?
08:37<drush>unless they do it on themself like here http://i.imgur.com/pRJFw.png
08:38<drush>which isn't really possible
08:38<drac_boy>drush problem is...how do you have a northbound ship and southbound ship "meet" at a single-width canal? hence why its done like that on purpose
08:38<drac_boy>roads at least already come with 2 lanes
08:38<drush>drac_boy I think they could wait at the other side of the canal until its clear
08:38<drac_boy>drush that'll be complicated..how do you even tell what a water route is then?
08:39<drush>we can assume that water works just like roads
08:39<drush>and that canals work like signalized railroads
08:39<drac_boy>drush and calculate 900+ water tiles each tick? I'm still too unsure about that
08:39<drush>you got a point
08:40<drac_boy>yeah, these alternative ship pathfinders still don't exactly do much else for cpu load on some servers yet
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08:47<drac_boy>drush at least if theres one thing comforting..its that its not only ships
08:47<drac_boy>planes actually don't 'see' each others as soon as they are out of any airport zones :)
08:48<drac_boy>otherwise there would had been a lot of mid-air crashes :)
08:54<Phazorx>more aestetically worring the fact that planes dont see buildings
08:55<drac_boy>only happens at mountaintop skyscapers as far as I can tell :)
08:55<Phazorx>happens all the time with ttrs and perhaps even default if there are buildings right at the end of runaway
08:55<drac_boy>oh runaway...well yeah that figures now
08:56<Eddi|zuHause>Phazorx: but opposing to simcity, you have no way of controlling the buildings here
08:56<drush>Phazorx 9/11
08:56<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause: well actually you do, and pretty much same way as in real world
08:57<Phazorx>you buy/lock area around
08:57<Phazorx>while you can not control what kind of buildings can be there, you can avoid having them at all
08:58<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds stupid
08:58<Phazorx>realistic
08:59<Phazorx>have you seen many large airports situated in busy downtonws?
08:59<drac_boy>I'm going off for a bit... be back later tho :)
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08:59<Eddi|zuHause>Phazorx: berlin tegel?
09:00<Phazorx>looking at gmaps... cant even find runaway there
09:01<Phazorx>ahh now i see
09:01<Phazorx>we;; it has forest around it
09:01<Phazorx>quite a bit of forest
09:02<Eddi|zuHause>there was also the smaller berlin tempelhof, but that one is already closed
09:02<Phazorx>people generally dont enjoy sounds of jets, so it;s quite understandable that no one wants to live/work there even if it would be allowed
09:02<Eddi|zuHause>well tegel was supposed to get closed 2 months ago
09:02<Phazorx>there are a few that actualy are in downtown
09:03<Eddi|zuHause>but they had a major fuckup with the new airport
09:03<Phazorx>like LGA or YTO
09:03<Phazorx>but their runaways are facing water
09:03<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause: my point still stands - there should be no building (especially tall) next to runaways
09:04<Eddi|zuHause>the new airport was supposed to be in schönefeld, which is directly outside of city borders
09:04<Eddi|zuHause>Phazorx: make a newairports grf with larger airport area surrounding the runway then
09:05<V453000>XD
09:05<Eddi|zuHause>(can only expand the two lower directions though, as afaik there is no way to move the "anchor point" of the state machine from the northern tile)
09:05<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause: probably not quite proper aproach
09:05<Phazorx>imho there should be 2 mechanisms in action
09:06<Eddi|zuHause>Phazorx: it's the approach that is permitted by current gameplay mechanics
09:06<@Belugas>hello
09:06<Phazorx>1st you are not supposed to place airport to close to existing town, and second there should be a growth limitting factor in area nearbay so town would go around expanding
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09:07<Phazorx>noise as factor i think already is sort of "considered"
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>yes it is. but it fails to override noise factor of a small town if a big city nearby demands a large airport
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>which is "not realistic"
09:08<V453000>welcome to realistic discussion Belugas :)
09:09<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause: sounds liek matter of priorities, and while some municipality demands airport it's up to player to figure out where to put it
09:12<@Belugas>bah...
09:13<@Belugas>it's always the player who decides everything, anyway..
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09:15<Phazorx>Belugas: i mean the engine has contraints and player makes decisions on how to comply to them best from own interest point of view
09:16<@Belugas>yup
09:16<@Belugas>agreed
09:17<@Belugas>so the other way around would be to have towns specifying in which area an airport would be desirable, an what type, further more
09:17<Phazorx>Belugas: and then you need town/city limits to figure out authority
09:17<Phazorx>and it's a whole differnt game then
09:18<Eddi|zuHause>Phazorx: btw look at how i placed the airports in my last game: http://www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Loisachkirchen%20Transport,%2013.%20Apr%202027.png
09:18<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause: i do similar setups in "natuarl looking games"
09:18<Phazorx>even for large stations
09:19<Phazorx>having local commuter network and feeders for large terminals is an obvious choice imo
09:20<Phazorx>and having roads as grouth restraints is pretty much what i said earlier about player owning area next to runaways
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>this was a YACD came, btw.
09:20<Phazorx>i still cant get to yacd to work with recent version though
09:20<Phazorx>do you have an updated repo somewhere or you just use old verion?
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>that was a really old version
09:20<Phazorx>i see
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11:20<drac_boy>hi
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12:22<NGC3982>Calm down, damnit!
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12:24<c_korn>hello, I have problem with openttd 1.2.2 on Ubuntu 12.04. after first starting the game and downloading OpenGFX-0.4.4 the download progress stops at 99% and the only output on the terminal is: shm_open() failed: Function not implemented
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12:37<@Yexo>good evening
12:38<c_korn>forget what I said. /dev/shm was missing in my chroot. works now. soon to be published on playdeb.net
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12:38<SpComb>chroot Oo
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12:54<@Alberth>wiebadiedoe
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>hm, i don't understand simearth... technology advanced kinda fast until industrial and atomic age, but the atomic always dies out...
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13:39*NGC3982 notes to V453000 that Zombie Slain still is one of the better engine names ever.
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13:40<V453000>what
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13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r24478 /trunk/src/lang/luxembourgish.txt:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: luxembourgish - 3 changes by Phreeze
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13:56<andythenorth>bonjours
13:58<@Alberth>hi hi
13:59<andythenorth>hmm
14:00<andythenorth>I want to type /moi in irc instead of /me
14:00<andythenorth>:P
14:02<SpComb>mui
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14:04<Eddi|zuHause>it's just a matter of setting up an alias
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>depending on your client
14:05<andythenorth>my client is not clever
14:05<Kjetil_>fire it
14:05<andythenorth>anyway, been thinking about FIRS primaries
14:05<andythenorth>they should probably, under certain conditions, be allowed to close
14:06<andythenorth>I prevent them closing entirely (parameter option), which keeps the map relatively full of them
14:06<andythenorth>which is a problem for new industries
14:07<@Alberth>today I thought about letting newgrf know of the state of an industry-type
14:08<@Alberth>that is, whether there are not enough or too many of a type
14:08<andythenorth>hmm
14:08<andythenorth>the probability is supposed to signal that
14:08<andythenorth>it's limited / obscure ?
14:09<andythenorth>I'm not going to change any of this in FIRS btw until there is more plan :)
14:09<andythenorth>but I had some ideas
14:09<@Alberth>probability says how many there should be, not how many there actually are
14:10<@Alberth>the latter is needed if a newgrf is going to decide what to do
14:10<@Alberth>unless we move that decision to the game engine completely :p
14:11<@Alberth>ie suppose there are supposed to be 10 of a type, but there are 5, so the type can get info like "50% coverage" or so
14:12<@Alberth>on the other hand, when there are 12 present, you'd get "120%"
14:12<@Alberth>which could then be used by the newgrf whether or not to close down
14:14<andythenorth>that can be done now, cb29 / 35 and var 67 or similar
14:14<andythenorth>wonder if it would be nice?
14:14<andythenorth>might need to stay within bounds, not aim for a single integer target
14:15<andythenorth>otherwise every game tends to same industry mix
14:19<@Alberth>var67 sounds terribly complicated
14:20<@Alberth>also, you cannot add all probabilities of the industries, so you cannot compute your own relative amount that you should have
14:22<andythenorth>no
14:23<andythenorth>and I'd have to map scale it
14:23<andythenorth>and it would be more code to maintain :P
14:29<Rubidium>andythenorth: just make an alias for /moi to /me ;)
14:32<Kjetil_>hm. shouldn't the amount of industries in a area follow the population count of nearby towns ?
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14:34<andythenorth>yes
14:34<andythenorth>absolutely
14:34<andythenorth>why though?
14:35<Kjetil_>Industries needs workers
14:36<@Alberth>industries have underground dungeons where they keep their workers
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14:36<Kjetil_>ah
14:37<Rubidium>actually, only two industries need workers: steel mills and oil rigs. With oil rigs you got a pretty good chance to return, but steel mill workers are used as coal
14:39<Kjetil_>I guess if one where aiming for realism the industry mix would be dependent on the current decade
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14:41<NGC3982>Alberth: Like in Dungeon Keeper?
14:41<NGC3982>The steel mill does look like a potential top of the Dungeon Keeper scenes.
14:41<@Alberth>no idea, never played that
14:41<NGC3982>Just sayin'.
14:41<NGC3982>:P
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14:47<NGC3982>Oh fart. How i hate pressing the wrong buttons in the town window.
14:48<Kjetil_>Did you pay for road reconstruction ?
14:49<Rubidium>just turn the undo knob!
14:49<Kjetil_>turn it all the way to eleven
14:49<NGC3982>Kjetil_: Yes..
14:49<NGC3982>My word, FIRS+NUTS is fantastic.
14:51<drush>lol road reco
14:51<drush>perfect for ruining competitor's urban transport
14:51<drush>much better than traing-camping
14:53<NGC3982>I find myself reluctant on playing that aggressively
14:54<drush>NGC3982 it's just business
14:54<NGC3982>:)
14:55<drush>but yeah if you can afford a new train to run over a few of your competitor's cars,
14:55<drush>then why not also ruin their local auth rep
14:55<drush>"competitor transport blazes in a fireball. 25 killed. don't ride their buses!"
14:56<NGC3982>:D
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14:58<Kjetil_>now if we only added ground-to-air missiles
14:58<NGC3982>Or terrorism.
14:59<Kjetil_>Corporate armies
15:00<NGC3982>Mobsters
15:00<NGC3982>Or galactic events
15:00<NGC3982>"Cannot deliver goods to station. Town evaporated."
15:03<Kjetil_>"Umbrella corporations HQ bombed. Company president killed."
15:03<andythenorth>how do I strip all .orig files from a src dir?
15:03<@Alberth>rm *.orig ?
15:03<andythenorth>needs to recurse
15:04<andythenorth>it's deeply nested python packages :P
15:04<SpComb>find
15:04<andythenorth>"flat is better", except in python packages :P
15:04<@Alberth>find src -type f -name "*.orig" -exec rm "{}" ";"
15:04*andythenorth tests
15:04<@Alberth>or somewhat safer: find src -type f -name "*.orig" | xargs rm
15:05<andythenorth>worked, thanks
15:05<@Alberth>(safer as in you can leave out the "| xargs rm" part :D
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>what's "safer" with leaving out xargs than with leaving out -exec?
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>the second version fails with spaces
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>needs -print0 | xargs -0
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15:30<+michi_cc>Alberth: How about just passing -delete to find? No problem with spaces, strange chars or whatever.
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15:32<@Alberth>useful to know, thanks
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15:51-!-Muxy is "Benoit" on #openttd @+#openttd.fr @+#goulp
15:51<Muxy>Hello here
15:53<Muxy>Yexo: i put some stuff for NoAI VehicleOld, if you have some time, can you, please, take a look at it ?
15:55<andythenorth>Friday night, and andythenorth is doing work
15:55<andythenorth>which is good
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16:22<@Yexo>Muxy: later this weekend
16:43<andythenorth>bed
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17:03<@Terkhen>good night
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17:41<frosch123>night
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18:57<AsteconnL>Greetings all! My name isn't Dave
19:00<V453000>hi Dave
19:00<TrueBrain>is it John?
19:01<AsteconnL>Negative
19:01<TrueBrain>Ben?
19:01<TrueBrain>Steve?
19:01<TrueBrain>owh, this will take a while; how long do you have?
19:01<AsteconnL>Nope
19:01<AsteconnL>I'm likely to be awake until 4am BST o.o
19:01<V453000>I just feel like in a lunatic asylum where a new insane person comes and introduces themself ... especially saying "My name isnt..."
19:02<TrueBrain>I think it is Dave, and it is just to make us burst our heads
19:03<AsteconnL>You would be incorrect, sir!
19:06<Mazur>Liar.
19:06<Mazur>Is rail in reverse.
19:07<Mazur>I'm a little airplane.
19:08<AsteconnL>Greetings Mazur
19:08<AsteconnL>Depending on the target of your initial statement you are either correct or incorrect.
19:09<Wakou>Is there any news about 32bpp? the game is not as good any more.
19:09<Wakou>How do i regress my install to when it worked?
19:13<Mazur>Radical way: remove the lot and reinstall. Less radical: identify which newGRFs are 32npp and remove those.
19:15<AsteconnL>Gentlemen - I am struggling to decide upon a locomotive for my network, needed for a short passenger linem, with UKRS2. I have narrowed it down to the choice of either the 0-6-0 Austerity, the 2-6-2 Ivatt, the 4-4-2 suburban, or the 0-6-0 Pannier. I could use the Railcar, but it's not terribly reliable
19:16-!-AsteconnL is now known as Asteconn
19:18<Mazur>You play with breakdowns?
19:18<Mazur>Sorry, hardly any masochists around here.
19:22<Asteconn>Yes. Yes I do :D
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19:24<Melkyore>I hate not asking about asking a question
19:24<Melkyore>anyway
19:25<Melkyore>Is there a way to track company progress in a multiplayer game from outside the server?
19:25<Mazur>Define progress?
19:25<Melkyore>For example, a php script queries the server for income, expenditure, etc
19:26<Mazur>Sort of.
19:26<Melkyore>?
19:26<Melkyore>It's unexplored territory?
19:26<Mazur>You can attach a script or something to the console.
19:27<Melkyore>The idea is that it writes to a sort of log file?
19:27<Mazur>Yes.
19:27<Mazur>by regularly issuing a console query.
19:27<Melkyore>Wow
19:27<Mazur>!rcon companies
19:27-!-Mazur was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.]
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19:27<Melkyore>...
19:27<Melkyore>oh
19:28<Asteconn>?
19:28<Asteconn>That was quite random
19:28<Melkyore>Unfortunately, the data returned by executing "companies" in the console is very bare
19:28<Mazur>If I did that on one of our game server IRC channels, a bot would relay hte command to the game and the output back into the channel.
19:29<Melkyore>Aah
19:29<Mazur>The bots also issue similar command every 5 minutes or so and log the output.
19:30<Mazur>But indeed the companies command gives sparse information, which is why I said "sort of".
19:31<Mazur>It gives the info we desire, though, so none has thought to expand it.
19:31<Melkyore>That is rather unfortunate
19:31<+michi_cc>Melkyore: http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/browser/trunk/docs/admin_network.txt
19:32<Melkyore>oh, my
19:33<Melkyore>Yes, this is excellent
19:33<Melkyore>Thank you very much
19:33<Melkyore>Mazur and michi_cc
19:34<Melkyore>Farewell
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19:35<Mazur>bookmarked.
19:53<Asteconn>So why don't you play with breakdowns?
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20:19<Wakou>So how do I delete all and regress?
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20:25<Wolf01>'night all
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20:35<Wakou>Goodnight Mr Wolf
21:02-!-Devroush [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has quit []
21:24<Mazur>Because breakdowns only add annoyance and interrupt an otherwise well build network.
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