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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-08-18

---Logopened Sat Aug 18 00:00:28 2012
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03:20<andythenorth>moin
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03:30<andythenorth>22% of windows downloaded :/
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03:33<Kjetil_>all of them !?
03:33<andythenorth>just #7
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04:23<@Alberth>moin
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05:18<Asteconn>Dia duit ar maidín! As they say in Ireland
05:35<Eddi|zuHause>that doesn't sound particularly irish to me
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05:38<Asteconn>It's Gaelic /nod
05:38<Asteconn>I can speak a very little of the language. Enough at least to introduce myself and comment on how rubbish the weather is
05:46<Eddi|zuHause>is that some screwed up version of my fair lady? :)
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05:48<Asteconn>No lol
05:49<Asteconn>For example! [incoming Gaelic]
05:51<Asteconn>Dia daoibh ar maidín a chairde! Richard is ainm duit, agus tá mé mo chónaí sa Roícht Aontaithe ^^
05:51<Asteconn>^is anim dom even
05:51<Asteconn>Bugger ^^;
05:51<Asteconn>I'm hardly fluent mind you
05:52<Asteconn>But it's often enough to impress Irish women as a conversation starter :D
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05:54<Eddi|zuHause>i think this is a good time to point towards the topic, though :)
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05:55<Asteconn>Indeedy. And that's why I'm keeping it to a minimum
05:55<Asteconn>But you seemed at least partly interested, and noone else is being interrupted ^^
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06:07<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: primary industry closure; desirable: yes / no / under certain conditions?
06:07<Eddi|zuHause>depends
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06:12<Asteconn>That sounds likea 'under certain conditions' to me =2
06:12<Asteconn>=3
06:12<Asteconn>I really need a new favourite emoticon
06:13<andythenorth>=m
06:14<Asteconn>o.ô Interesting. I will consider this development
06:14<Eddi|zuHause>i'm running out of old games to play...
06:15<Eddi|zuHause>and the one i want to play i can't find the CD of...
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06:36<@Alberth>hi andy, eddi, and Asteconn
06:36<@Alberth>andythenorth: what do I hear now, closing industries is acceptable? :)
06:36<Asteconn>Eddi|zuHause: You should play I-War
06:37<Asteconn>Greetings Alberth
06:38<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: it was always acceptable. it was just one of those andy-isms where "i don't like behaviour X" results in "let's do the extreme opposite"
06:38<@Terkhen>hello
06:39<Eddi|zuHause>instead of fine-tuning X
06:39<@Alberth>hello Terkhen
06:39<@Alberth>:)
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06:46<@Terkhen>this is my last day of vacations :(
06:47<Eddi|zuHause>tomorrow is sunday
06:47<andythenorth>meh
06:47<andythenorth>I spent several weekends trying to improve FIRS closing, until frosch123 pointed out I was wasting my life ;)
06:48-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f497a.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
06:49<@Alberth>speaking of the devil :p hi frosch
06:49<@Terkhen>Eddi|zuHause: I'm not going to call 5 hours of driving and unpacking everything a vacation day
06:49<frosch123>mmwhahaha!
06:49<frosch123>hai albert :)
06:49<@Terkhen>hi frosch123 :)
06:50<@Alberth>frosch123: no worries, your name was used in a positive way, namely rescueing andys life
06:51<frosch123>that's what i was worried about :p
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06:53<frosch123>hmm, even with the logs i miss context :s
06:57<andythenorth>was wrt industry closing
06:58<andythenorth>and the stupidity of trying to solve it in grf :P
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07:37<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r24479 /trunk/src/pathfinder/npf/npf.cpp: -Fix: Trains were unable to reverse in stations when using NPF.
07:37<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r24480 /trunk/src/ship_cmd.cpp: -Doc: Doxygenize ChooseShipTrack().
07:37<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r24481 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 4 dirs): -Feature [FS#5127]: Make the pathfinder decide whether ships shall leave depots towards north or south.
07:38<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r24482 /trunk/src/ (openttd.cpp saveload/town_sl.cpp): -Fix [FS#5232] (r24180): Do not call RebuildSubsidisedSourceAndDestinationCache() before subsidy savegame conversion is finished.
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07:57<Asteconn>Gentlemen - might I peruse your opinion on the matter of routing rail lines and station orientation? I have here [http://snag.gy/DXbQP.jpg] some towns that I wish to connect. I'm thinking of running a mainline from Garswood > Winchfield > Balmossie > eventually off the left side of the map to some more cities, with a spur following the small river from Winchfield to Cleland green, calling at...
07:57<Asteconn>...all of the towns on the way. Especially at Winchfield, I'm unsure how to angle the station so that I can get it relatively close to the centre of the town, but still have it running as a through station rather than a terminus at the bottom of a T?
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08:03<frosch123>maybe drop balmossie and rather go east north from winchfield
08:03<frosch123>towards canterbury shirlay swinton cleland
08:04<frosch123>in winchfield likely the stations fits best on NW
08:04<frosch123>with some bus feeders inside the town and over the bridge
08:04<Asteconn>Yeah =] I was going to go that direction on the branch line
08:05<Asteconn>But yes I see what you mean there
08:05<Asteconn>I was thinking about putting the station at NW, although there would be quite a tight curve going inwards
08:06<Asteconn>^NW next to the river
08:12<Asteconn>What's the best way to ensure that trains are consistently mostly-full, without degrading the rating of the station?
08:15<frosch123>set loading time to a few days
08:15<frosch123>maybe 3
08:15<frosch123>(i.e. timetable only the loading, not the travel)
08:15<frosch123>(don't set loading times for crowded stations)
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08:16<Asteconn>glx uses IPv6 :D
08:16<Asteconn>Ah yes =] I do that already
08:16<Asteconn>But I've never not-timetabled busy stations
08:20<frosch123>you should timetable non-busy stations when fullload is no option
08:20<frosch123>:)
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08:23<@Alberth>hi
08:23<Wolf01>hello o/
08:24<Asteconn>Ahh ^^
08:24<Asteconn>Also, greetings Wolf01
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08:53<andythenorth>so primary closing - what conditions trigger closure?
08:56<@Alberth>in a sane environment?
08:56<@Alberth>age, use, number present versus wanted count, and some random
08:56<andythenorth>in a sane environment
08:57<andythenorth>with a little more care / balance than just 'production multiplier is 4 or less'
08:57<@Alberth>newgrf is in control of the production multiplier, right?
09:02<andythenorth>yup
09:02<andythenorth>I have everything I need to control the internals of closure
09:02<andythenorth>but very little to decide 'is it good for gameplay?' (or not)
09:03<andythenorth>I can count the number of instances of the type and such
09:03<andythenorth>but not density, nor likelihood of rebuilding elsewhere etc
09:03<andythenorth>ah
09:03<andythenorth>density
09:03<andythenorth>that's an interesting aspect
09:10<V453000>the "send all vehicles for servicing" order from group means the same like ctrl+clicked send to depot for all vehicles in the group, right?
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09:17<V453000>andy: found some issue with recycling depot, the cargoes it produces seem to be rather random :d
09:19<V453000>I think manuf. supplies / farm supplies is best option
09:21<V453000>andythenorth: ^
09:21<frosch123>V453000: i would think so (wrt, depot stuff)
09:22<V453000>now it made even chemicals :d
09:26<V453000>from the side of openttd, I think autoreplacing works good as it is, with one exception - when you want to autoreplace twice in quick succession, soon enough so train do not want to service yet. I think making the order "send trains for servicing" could work better, like instead of send the train directly to depot, make all trains demand servicing when they spot a depot, like with normal servicing. This would become a lot more handy not only wi
09:27<V453000>after all, not even all trains on the map have to see a path to a depot at any time, those would be unaffected by the current mass command
09:27<V453000>if it just resets their service timer to "want service", it would work a lot more flexibly
09:27<V453000>is anything like that viable?
09:31<frosch123>doesn't it already behave like that?
09:32<frosch123>(vehicles trying to service when autoreplace is active, even if breakdowns are disabled)
09:32<V453000>yes, but you cant make them do that twice in quick succession
09:32<V453000>you just have to wait for the next time for servicing
09:33<V453000>and the current order itself is a bit unuseful, sending all trains straight to depot is quite dangerous for every network
09:38<frosch123>you don't want to do that for all trains :p
09:38<frosch123>just one group or station
09:38<V453000>even then
09:38<V453000>if you have a terminus station anywhere on the route of that group, it will work really badly
09:39<V453000>but if their servicing would be required the next time they meet a depot, they would just visit the depot after the terminus, for example
09:40<andythenorth>recycling plant produces random cargos
09:40<V453000>which is really unconvenient because when you order all of the group to service, you wan them to do that
09:40<V453000>andythenorth: that is intended? :o
09:46<frosch123>i don't think resetting the service time when changing autoreplace is actually desired
09:47<frosch123>vehicles shall not all go to depot immediately
09:47<frosch123>the service intervall spreads them over the time
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09:50<V453000>sure, in normal cases
09:50<V453000>but if you give them an order?
09:51<V453000>that is what happens, now but with the difference that it breaks the network as they usually all go to one depot that they saw closes when given the command, and the trains which do not see a depot at that time are ignored by the command
09:51<andythenorth>V453000: yes, intended ;)
09:52<V453000>andythenorth: :(
09:53<frosch123>V453000: ah, you mean a third entry in the drop down
09:54<frosch123>sent to depot/send to servicing immediately/schedule servicing
09:54<frosch123>i thought you wanted to change the default behaviour without manual interaction
09:55<V453000>nono, just that one command in the dropdown
09:55<V453000>dont know about send to depot, but send to servicing would be a lot better that way
09:56<andythenorth>V453000: those industries serve no gameplay purpose except as a destination for recyclables
09:56<andythenorth>i.e. they don't fit into any other chain
09:56<andythenorth>so they just produce random cargos
09:56<V453000>doesnt matter they produce something, they can be useful
09:57<V453000>and if you want to use them in any way, and fund them for yourself, it is basically impossible to guess what they will produce; you cant plan with that :/
09:57<andythenorth>yes
09:57<andythenorth>evilness
09:58<andythenorth>gtg
09:58<andythenorth>but post in FIRS forum thread if you can see how to solve them
09:58<Asteconn>You know, two things that annoy me mildly presently - Firstly that I cannot swap mail and passenger wagons without doing it manually, and secondly that I wagon swaps don't add carriages if the train becomes too short
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10:05<frosch123>hmm, google favicon changed
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11:43<drush>frosch123 like a long time ago
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12:40<andythenorth>boo
12:49<andythenorth>hmm
12:49<andythenorth>I have a very special request
12:49<andythenorth>I would like a new var similar to var 67 etc
12:49<andythenorth>parameter is another industry type
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12:50<andythenorth>returns the count of type instances for which there is an unbroken water route from current tile
12:50<andythenorth>I could do it in newgrf with a fricking insane spiral tile check
12:50<andythenorth>but the pain would be incredible :)
12:51<andythenorth>frosch123: ^ ?
12:51<@Yexo>unbroking water route -> pathfinding -> too expensive
12:52<@Yexo>s/ing/en/
12:52<frosch123>yeah, just wanted to say that :)
12:52<andythenorth>I figure that might be the answer
12:52<andythenorth>going in straight lines is insufficient I guess
12:53<andythenorth>another request: deterministic order for placing industries at map gen
12:53<andythenorth>probly also a no
12:53*andythenorth is trying to improve fishing harbours
12:54<@Yexo>indeed, also definitely a no. a newgrf should not depend on that order
12:55<andythenorth>I wonder if I should remove the fishing harbour
12:55<andythenorth>it causes support issues
12:56<andythenorth>- it's hard to place manually
12:56<andythenorth>- it isn't built reliably by map gen
12:56<andythenorth>- when it is built, the location is often nonsense wrt fishing grounds
12:57*andythenorth experiments
13:01<andythenorth>pop quiz, pick one answer
13:01<andythenorth>"Fishing harbours should locate near towns, it looks nicer"
13:02<andythenorth>"Fishing harbours should locate anywhere, usually more can be built this way"
13:02<andythenorth>??
13:02<masch_>the first one!
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13:02<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: your 2 €cents?
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13:23<andythenorth>flat docks :(
13:28<@Alberth>you ran out of dock cranes?
13:29<andythenorth>I ran out of slopes :P
13:29<andythenorth>all slopes used up :P
13:34<@Alberth>you must have played too many mountanuous games :p
13:39<andythenorth>seriously, flat docks :P
13:40<andythenorth>or do we have to wait for New Stations?
13:40<andythenorth>which is a unicorn :P
13:40<andythenorth>also I have made the game enjoyable again
13:40<andythenorth>the secret is 800x500 resolution
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13:43<@Alberth>I used your FISH to have a fun game
13:43<@Alberth>hmm, you made a new version didn't you? Must try that too :p
13:44<V453000>andythenorth: I wouldnt be against fishing harbours anywhere
13:44<V453000>near towns is really low probability
13:44<V453000>esp. if you use lower town amount
13:46<andythenorth>V453000: I'm thinking it's a worthwhile change
13:46<V453000>for sure
13:46<V453000>also fishing grounds would need to grow
13:47<V453000>the fishing chain is basically useless atm
13:47<andythenorth>:o
13:48<andythenorth>fishing chain is the standard money maker at the start
13:49<V453000>the other cargoes are good enough
13:49<V453000>and fish production is so low that oil is a lot more worth it
13:49<V453000>if you make it well, you have oil growing since first year of service
13:50<V453000>reaching huge productions very soon
13:53<V453000>come have a look how its done on our stable server :) there is firs atm
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14:05<andythenorth>why aren't my farms growing :(
14:05<andythenorth>I'm dumping in FMSP
14:06<V453000>my farms grow well :)
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14:58<andythenorth>seriously, flat docks :P
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15:27<Rubidium>interesting idea, merging houses and docks. Is that like merging houses and roads?
15:29<andythenorth>merge everything :P
15:29<andythenorth>also, I need a 4 track tramway
15:29<andythenorth>:P
15:30<andythenorth>this game has no trains yet
15:30<frosch123>can you transport an entire dock on a ship?
15:31<frosch123>hmm, i guess you cannot transport an airport in a plane
15:31<andythenorth>http://gcaptain.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/heavy-lift-ship-mega-cranes.jpg
15:32<Rubidium>ofcourse you can. An aircraft is hundreds of kilometers long, an airport at most 100-120 meters across
15:33<andythenorth>hmm
15:33<frosch123>luckily different scales are no problem in ottd
15:33<andythenorth>suddenly I'm printing money
15:34<andythenorth>ah
15:34<andythenorth>ships :P
15:34<andythenorth>cost a lot to buy
15:34<andythenorth>make a lot of money
15:34<andythenorth>they're like the aircraft of 1895
15:36<andythenorth>it's a shame OS X has to fade full screen ottd in and out
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15:38<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r24483 /trunk/src/lang/dutch.txt: -Fix: remove ZERO WIDTH SPACE character from Dutch strings causing the fallback font to be chosen over the sprite font
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15:39<andythenorth>also
15:39<andythenorth>farms suck
15:39<andythenorth>this idea of two output cargos is stupid
15:40<SpComb>agreed, there should be at least three
15:40<frosch123>"zero width space"? was that used intentionally?
15:42<Rubidium>I think they copied it from somewhere
15:43<Rubidium>as it was in the same place in both strings, and there were two per string
15:44<@Alberth>isn't that used as BOM ?
15:45<Rubidium>not that I know of
15:52<TinoDidriksen>Yes it is
15:55<frosch123>where?
15:58<frosch123>ah, non-breaking zero-width space is a bom
15:58<frosch123>but, breaking zero-width space is not
15:59<andythenorth>meh
15:59<andythenorth>could use some trains right now
15:59<andythenorth>7 years until I get any :P
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16:10<andythenorth>is this pipelines grf any good?
16:10*andythenorth needs to move some oil :P
16:24<andythenorth>did a ship pf bug get fixed?
16:25<andythenorth>I just pulled and my ships are no longer being stupid
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16:28<@Alberth>s/no longer/less/
16:28<@Alberth>frosch fixed a few ship bugs indeed :)
16:29<frosch123>andythenorth: when leaving depots?
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16:37<andythenorth>yup
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17:06<@Alberth>good night
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17:19<@Terkhen>good night
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17:43<drac_boy>hi
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17:58<frosch123>night
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20:20<Wolf01>'night all
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---Logclosed Sun Aug 19 00:00:36 2012