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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-08-21

---Logopened Tue Aug 21 00:00:39 2012
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02:01<NGC3982>Morning
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03:01<@Terkhen>good morning
03:02<telanus>morning
03:03<Zuu>morning
03:05<@Terkhen>hi telanus and Zuu
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04:16<Magicbones>Question: Can I disable the autokick funtion to clients that take time to connect/download from a server?
04:16<NGC3982>My solution to that is usually to increase the allowed join time.
04:16<NGC3982>But that's not really a good answer to your question.
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04:21<@Terkhen>magicbones: there is probably a setting to change the time before a client is kicked
04:22<Magicbones>thanks
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04:22<NGC3982>max_join_time disconnects a joining (slow) client after 500 ticks.
04:22<NGC3982>I think the max value is 2000.
04:23<Eddi|zuHause>there's different times for downloading and catching up after download, etc.
04:23<NGC3982>What is a 'tick' anyway? I can't find references to it.
04:23<Eddi|zuHause>a tick is 33ms
04:23<@Terkhen>I wonder why most people asking stuff leave the channel as soon as they can
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04:24<FLHerne>Terkhen: Because they want to try out what they just got told :P
04:24<NGC3982>Sadly, that's IRC for you.
04:24<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: a "tick" is the ingame time unit. nothing can be faster than that
04:24<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: I see.
04:25<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: every tick, all vehicles are moved forward, cargos are created/removed/loaded/unloaded, etc.
04:26<NGC3982>I think that explains why ive always thought OpenTTD should demand more computing that it actually does.
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04:26<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: fast forward removes the 33ms delay, so it will go as fast as the CPU can go
04:26<@Terkhen>it is quite demanding already :P
04:27<NGC3982>Terkhen: The usable information is -huge-? ;)
04:28<NGC3982>In my book, that's kind of the whole thing about OpenTTD.
04:28<@planetmaker>moin
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04:28<NGC3982>The accumulated information creates a bigger sense of wonder than the actual graphics.
04:29<NGC3982>Morning PM.
04:29<@Terkhen>I know, but that is what makes it demanding :P
04:29<@Terkhen>hi planetmaker
04:30<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: Can ticks be altered for network games?
04:30<Eddi|zuHause>no
04:30<@planetmaker>also not for SP games. Except in FF
04:30<NGC3982>SP/FF?
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04:31<@planetmaker>single player / fast forward
04:31<NGC3982>Ah, i see.
04:31<NGC3982>planetmaker: I have some news regarding our previous discussions. May i PM you?
04:32<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: also, an ingame day has 74 ticks
04:32<Eddi|zuHause>which makes it around 2.5 seconds
04:33<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: I know there are patches that alter the length of ingame days. I guess they are based on changing the amount of ticks per day, and not changing the actuall tick time then?
04:35<@planetmaker>you guess right. and you guess wrong. Do you also guess that all apples are green?
04:35*NGC3982 prepares a big speech on green apples and quantum probability
04:35<@planetmaker>"there's at least one apple in the universe of which one side is green"
04:39<NGC3982>That is not related to quantum probability, but the closed universe hypothesis.
04:40<NGC3982>And yes, all apples are green as much as all the time patches work with possible game alternations.
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04:42<szaman>what unusual is with apple green at one side only?
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05:16<dihedral>o/
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05:17<drac_boy>hi
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05:21<@Terkhen>hi dihedral and drac_boy
05:22<dihedral>oi Terkhen :)
05:22<drac_boy>how're you two? :)
05:37<Phazorx>dih hallo :)
05:39<@Terkhen>drac_boy: feeling very tired... going back to work is not fun
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06:05<drac_boy>mm I can imagine
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06:36<dihedral>a Phazorx - i don't believe it
06:36<dihedral>how are you sir?
06:45<petern_>Mr Meldrew?
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07:25<Rubidium>interesting OpenTTD uses 33 ms ticks now, TTD has 27 ms and older OpenTTD 30 ms.
07:26<NGC3982>Any particular reason for changing it?
07:26<NGC3982>:)
07:26<NGC3982>reasons*
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08:21<Rubidium>I wouldn't know the reason to change it to 33 ms, the other is probably a mistake someone sometime ago made when making the first openttd version
08:23<NGC3982>Ah.
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08:36<Phazorx>"a Phazorx"? are there others? i'm pretty sure it supposed to be "the"
08:37<Phazorx>dihedral: quite fine actually... enjoying end of summer
08:38<dihedral>nice to hear :-)
08:38<Phazorx>swung by cuz i was looking at modern cargodist development here
08:46<@planetmaker>hm, when did we change to 33ms, Rubidium ?
08:47<@planetmaker>I recall when we discussed NML docs that OpenTTD used 30
08:56<petern_>MILLISECONDS_PER_TICK = 30
08:56<petern_>so...
08:56<dihedral>Phazorx, good luck :-P
08:57<Phazorx>dihedral: lost cause you think?
08:57<dihedral>aye
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08:57<petern_>does 30 == 33 now?
09:00<Phazorx>why not 25 or 50?
09:00<petern_>That would be a massive change...
09:00<Sacro>10 * MATH_PI
09:00<Phazorx>how many ticks per day btw?
09:01<@planetmaker>(30 == 33) as long as also (pi == 3) ;-) 74 ticks a day
09:01<Phazorx>where did these magic numbers came from originally?
09:01<Phazorx>Mr Sawyer?
09:02<@planetmaker>the 27: yes
09:02<petern_>no, 74 * 27ms = 1 second
09:02<petern_>approximately
09:02<@planetmaker>ehm... no?
09:02<petern_>ehm... yes?
09:02<@planetmaker>@calc 0.027 * 74
09:02<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 1.998
09:02<petern_>oh, 2 seconds :p
09:03<petern_>typod :(
09:03<Phazorx>50 * 20 or 20*50 would make so much mroe sense :)
09:07<@Belugas>hello
09:09<Rubidium>planetmaker: somewhere before 10:23 today ;)
09:11<petern_>I assumed you were referring to a comment someone made :)
09:37*NGC3982 wonders how inflation algoritm works.
09:37<@planetmaker>lol, Rubidium :-)
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09:50-!-DanMacK [DanMacK@CPE602ad091690d-CM602ad091690a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #openttd
09:50<DanMacK>Hey all
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09:52<@planetmaker>hey DanMacK !
10:12<@Terkhen>hi DanMacK
10:16<DanMacK>Howdy
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13:08<@Yexo>@commit 24489
13:08<@DorpsGek>Yexo: Commit by zuu :: r24489 trunk/src/ai/ai_gui.cpp (2012-08-21 17:07:17 UTC)
13:08<@DorpsGek>Yexo: -Feature [FS#5230]: Display GS dead state in AI debug window.
13:08<@planetmaker>\o/ @ Zuu
13:08<frosch123>cia announcements are a lot more subtile :)
13:08<@planetmaker>yes
13:09*planetmaker steals an "i" from frosch123
13:09<@Terkhen>:P
13:10<frosch123>planetmaker: yeah, i was wondering how to mess up the spelling so that it looks english, i thought adding an unspoken e at the end would suffice
13:10<frosch123>but apparently you also have to drop arbitrary letters :)
13:10<@planetmaker>:D
13:10<Zuu>:-)
13:11*planetmaker knows that way of "creating" words well, though
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>that's how half my vocabulary works :p
13:19<@Belugas>haa... come on people... can't you cheer up and congratule Zuu for being our new dev???
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>that would be way too obvious :p
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>so... what's the next old game then?
13:25<@planetmaker>hu?
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>new games are boring...
13:25<@planetmaker>haha :-)
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13:48<Muxy>what's the purpose of squirel_export.sh ?
13:49<Zuu>To re-generate some files.
13:49<Muxy>what files and for what use ?
13:51<+glx>api headers
13:51<+glx>needed to compile openttd correctly
13:51<Muxy>is there some equiv with windows ?
13:51<+glx>you need msys
13:51<Zuu>or cygwin
13:52<+glx>maybe one day I'll do a vbs for it
13:52<Muxy>sh2vns
13:52<Muxy>*sh2vbs
13:52<Zuu>The only case you need to run it manually is if you make changes to the AI/GS API.
13:53<Muxy>ok, so i dont need for NoAI
13:53<Zuu>If you clone/check out trunk, you shouldn't need to run it yourself.
13:56<@planetmaker>you need it, if you change NoAI functions / API, of course. Not, if you "just" write an AI itself
13:57<Muxy>i just added a new function, is it considered as a change ?
13:59<+glx>in the api ?
13:59<Muxy>yes, the VehicleOld Event Message
14:00<+glx>then you need to run the script
14:00<Zuu>Yes, that is an API change
14:01<Muxy>and it will generate/modify what file
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14:01<Muxy>the best is to try
14:02<Zuu>Read the beginning of the shell script for information on from where you should execute it.
14:02<Muxy>yes i saw
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14:07<Wolf01>hello o/
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14:20<Muxy>glx: if i dont run this script will i be able to compile ?
14:20<@planetmaker>not, if you change api
14:20<@planetmaker>not necessarily at least. or get some broken result
14:21<Zuu>It is probably possible to update the automatic generated files manually to test it, but before submitting the patch its a good idea to generate the files from the script and use that in the patch.
14:22<Muxy>cause i added my VehicleOld Event, and compile was ok, also running ofc
14:23<@planetmaker>that's one of the things which would need it... or AIs won't really be able to make use of it properly
14:26<NGC3982>Hey.
14:26<NGC3982>This questions is very non-OpenTTD related, but it seems to right up this channels alley.
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14:27<NGC3982>If i hypotheticly store every piece of information in the universe on a hard drive - shouldn't i be able to use entropy rules as a form of compression?
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14:28<@Alberth>does that save any space?
14:28<@Alberth>hi andy
14:28<@Yexo>if you've saved all information already, why do you want compression?
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14:29<NGC3982>Alberth: If entropy allows certain configurations to be static, i guess it would.
14:29<NGC3982>For instance, simply knowing the probability for configuration A existing next to configuration C.
14:30<NGC3982>Or, a singularity, where huge areas can be described with very little data, since the information is static troughout the given areas.
14:30<@Alberth>but you still need to store that A is there imho
14:30<andythenorth>hi Alberth
14:30<NGC3982>Alberth: I guess.
14:30*andythenorth resumes losing at NoCarGoal
14:31<Rubidium>NGC3982: you can't store every piece of information on a hard disk; simple quantum physics rule (Schroedinger's cat)
14:31<NGC3982>Rubidium: Yes, i know. Though, this is a hypothetical scenario that do not need that in consideration.
14:31<@Alberth>the harddisk would be part of the universre too :p
14:32<@Alberth>so you need infinite amount of space to store everything :)
14:32<NGC3982>Think of it as a Planck-length described as a bit, and that configurations of Planck-lengths make up the universe.
14:33<NGC3982>Yes, well, that is the great thing about hypothesism.
14:34<@Alberth>afaik entropy is not about likelyhood of configuration, it's just about every configuration is equally likely, and 'non-ordered' combinations then win by their numbers
14:35<NGC3982>True, for physics.
14:35<NGC3982>I guess you can use entropy to describe the probability of configurations being the same, on macro scales.
14:35<NGC3982>But let's use the word "repeated configurations" instead.
14:35<NGC3982>It seems to describe what im looking for in a better way.
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14:36<@planetmaker>"universe" excludes in the word itself already that it can be mapped to anything less than itself
14:36<NGC3982>And that is: If i (in a hypothetical scenario that ignores quantum business) store all the present information in the observable universe, i guess i could use orders of repeated configurations to describe stuff with some compression.
14:37<NGC3982>But wait
14:37<NGC3982>We already do that
14:37<Rubidium>pff... isn't it much more efficient to store the important constants and the actual model. Then you can "easily" calculate the state at any moment in time
14:38<NGC3982>Can't the laws and forces be described as definitions of compression?
14:38<@planetmaker>nope. You can't predict quantum level
14:39<@planetmaker>you can't even describe the state actually
14:40<NGC3982>I don't think i understand. The relevance of not being abled to predict a quantum state doesn't exist if we can monitor larger scale information with predictable rules.
14:41<NGC3982>That really means we can't use quantum processes as compression, but all the rules above it.
14:41<Muxy>Yexo: task 5078 updated.
14:42<@planetmaker>NGC3982: you need understanding of quantum gravitation to properly describe and predict the universe. Ever heart of the butterfly effect? ;-)
14:42<NGC3982>For instance, a field should be able to handle limits to a configuration (for instance, mass and it's reaction to the Higgs field) better then rules set for every individual configuration. That seems to be a compression itself?
14:42<Rubidium>but you could predict the butterfly flapping, couldn't you? ;)
14:42<NGC3982>planetmaker: Yes, that is needed in a scenario where quantum effects are taken into effect.
14:42<andythenorth>I think I've solved FIRS supplies, but I'm going to be annoying and keep it a secret until I've tested it
14:42<andythenorth>and it might require FIRS 2 :P
14:42<andythenorth>due to whining about the change
14:43<Rubidium>you just need to know the model and the begin state to perfection (which is undoable)
14:43<andythenorth>also a few other things
14:44<NGC3982>planetmaker: Where quantum effects are taken into consideration*
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: is that this bad movie with ashton kutcher?
14:50<@planetmaker>I don't know that movie... maybe?
14:50<Eddi|zuHause>there's also an even worse second part, which i haven't seen
14:53<NGC3982>Yes, it is.
14:53<NGC3982>On both things.
14:54<NGC3982>http://xkcd.com/936/
14:55<NGC3982>I found a paper that confirmed this, by the way.
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14:56<NGC3982>It seems like the general idea is that the simply adding laws to lots of mass creates different entropy
14:56<NGC3982>Thus, entropy can be re-used to determine how the universe is structured, and therefor usable in compressing data if trying to map -everything-.
14:56<NGC3982>Neat.
15:01<Eddi|zuHause>that didn't make any sense
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15:05<NGC3982>What was not understood?
15:05<NGC3982>I will be happy to elaborate as soon as ive plowed trough my material.
15:07<FLHerne>andythenorth: Can you tell me please, so I can whine about it? :P
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>,
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>äh...
15:13<andythenorth>ships have some serious pathfinding issues on rivers
15:13<andythenorth>wrt depots
15:14<Eddi|zuHause>with YAPF or original?
15:14<Eddi|zuHause>original is useless with rivers. and useless with seas as well... actually original is completely useless
15:15<andythenorth>YAPF
15:16<andythenorth>maybe I need to place more bouys
15:16<andythenorth>I'm testing the effects without
15:16<Eddi|zuHause>so what is the actual problem?
15:16<andythenorth>(1) ships getting stuck in river sections, trying to get to a depot
15:16<Eddi|zuHause>YAPF should find a path even without buoys
15:16<andythenorth>(2) ships not turning round when leaving a dock
15:17<andythenorth>i.e. going away from next destination
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>you disabled 90° curves?
15:17<andythenorth>yes :o
15:17<andythenorth>always
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>is it better if you enable them?
15:17<Rubidium>so they need more space to turn around
15:17<andythenorth>let's see
15:17<andythenorth>90' curves is very plausible
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>probably ships need places to go backwards
15:18<NGC3982>andythenorth: I was wondering why nobody fixes that.
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: maybe because nobody reported it?
15:19<@Alberth>nobody wrote a fix for it :)
15:19<andythenorth>if I see a pattern, I'll post a save
15:19<andythenorth>mostly I just have to build increasingly more canals to fix it :P
15:19<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: Sure, i have no idea. Since it's an "old" problem, i guessed it simply was a hard nut to crack.
15:19<andythenorth>half my map becomes canals
15:19<@Alberth>watery maps are fun :)
15:20<NGC3982>What interests me is why ships that have the same orders don't always take the same route.
15:20<NGC3982>Ships are fantastic.
15:20<CornishPasty>Someone should add openttd stuff to minecraft :P
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>well i never use breakdowns/servicing, so the problem never really appeared for me
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: with YAPF they do, mostly
15:20<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: Ah, i see.
15:21<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: with original, they just randomly pick a direction, even if it appears to be straight ahead within 20 tiles
15:21<NGC3982>YAPF comes and is available in the newer (stable) versions of OpenTTD, right?
15:21<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: I see.
15:21<Eddi|zuHause>newer, as in 0.5.x?
15:21<NGC3982>As in 1.2.1 and forward.
15:21<NGC3982>-.+?
15:21<NGC3982>:)
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>well, YAPF for ship was disabled by default, due to performance issues, but they have been solved quite a while ago
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>possibly before 1.1.x even, but not sure
15:22<FLHerne>andythenorth: I also found ships to be baffled by rivers :-(
15:23*FLHerne goes to eat stuff
15:23<NGC3982>And is YAPF still disabled by default?
15:23*NGC3982 tries it out.
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>no, it's now the default
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>unless you have an old config file or load an old savegame
15:24<NGC3982>Well, that means that "< NGC3982> What interests me is why ships that have the same orders don't always take the same route." actually refers to YAPF.
15:24<NGC3982>Hm
15:24<Eddi|zuHause>oha... they arrested Walter White - meth cook
15:25<@Terkhen>you should keep spoilers to yourself :)
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>the fun thing is, it's not a spoiler
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>it's a real world guy named Walter White
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>:)
15:26<NGC3982>http://i.imgur.com/n6djm.png
15:26<@Terkhen>oh, sorry, real life spoilers are of course allowed here :P
15:26<NGC3982>For instance, look at this screenshot. All the ship in this picture are to drop off oil at the harbour and then follow an order far to the left.
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.serienjunkies.de/news/review/42387-walterwhitebreakingbad.jpg
15:27<NGC3982>I wish i could code.
15:28<NGC3982>Id fix it (or at least try, fail and cry).
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>"Walter Eddy White was sentenced to jail in 2008 and left on parole in 2010. he failed to attend a court meeting last month and was put on the top of the most wanted list"
15:29<NGC3982>Oopsie.
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15:48<andythenorth>NoCarGoal remains fun
15:49<andythenorth>I think about 100k units for 30 years is about right for the map I have
15:49<andythenorth>I think I'll get bronze :P
15:49*andythenorth -> pub
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16:01<LordAro>eveings
16:05<@Yexo>evening LordAro
16:05<@planetmaker>salut LordAro
16:05<@Yexo>two more commits today due to your patches yesterday :p
16:05<LordAro>hello developers :)
16:05<LordAro>oh?
16:05*LordAro looks
16:06<LordAro>wait, how did Zuu commit?
16:07*planetmaker assumes like svn ci -m "blah" :-P (or via tortoiseSVN)
16:07<LordAro>:)
16:08<LordAro>congrats Zuu on (i'm assuming) becoming developer :)
16:08<LordAro>Yexo: i blame you not reviewing my code properly :P
16:08<@Yexo>right you are :)
16:09<Zuu>LordAro: Thanks you are right
16:09<LordAro>not running squirrel_export.sh was a silly mistake on my part though :L
16:11*LordAro thinks that readme.txt and misc_gui.cpp are outdated in that case :P
16:12<@Yexo>Zuu: ^^ another commit for you :)
16:13<LordAro>also forum 'status'
16:27<Zuu>LordAro: You mean that the readme.txt should document that you have to run squirrel_export.sh when doing API work?
16:28<LordAro>no :P
16:28<LordAro>look at section X.X
16:28<Zuu>:-)
16:43<@Alberth>good night
16:43<@planetmaker>g'night Alberth
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16:53<LordAro>could this be improved in any way? : http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1664/
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>you could use a named pipe instead of a tempfile
16:57<frosch123>and you could also check the attributions in the commit message :p
16:58<frosch123>though you will miss backports when using hg
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>postulate: any program that cannot be improved is trivial.
16:58<frosch123>and other weird branches :)
16:58<Zuu>LordAro: uniq -c will print the number of occurances
16:58<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: you know about programs like "gnu hello" ?
16:58<frosch123>even trivial things can be "improved"
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>not sure what that is
16:59<frosch123>though "improved" might be subjective :p
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>but anyway, i have not said anything about the reverse
16:59<LordAro>Eddi|zuHause: i tried the 'named pipe' but i kept getting errors...
16:59<Zuu>Eg use: hg log --template "{author}\n" | sort | uniq -ic
16:59<Zuu>to get data for the REPO in current directory.
17:01<Zuu>append a "| sort" and it will show the results ordered by number of commits too.
17:01<@Yexo>should be "| sort -n" to sort numerically
17:01<@Yexo>otherwise you get weird sortings
17:01<Zuu>ok
17:02<@Yexo>"10" < "2" etc.
17:03<Zuu>It this case it works without -n, because the it has " 2" and "10".
17:03<@Yexo>for me it didn't
17:03<Zuu>different 'uniq' versions probably.
17:03<@Yexo>I think because sort will take "fields" so it strips the spaces
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17:04<Zuu>or a 'sort' that trim the strings before
17:04<LordAro>Yexo/Zuu: what if i want to sort alphabetically? :P
17:06<@Yexo>sort -k 2
17:06<LordAro>ok, that whole block is now down to "echo `hg log -R $1 --template "{author}\n"` | sort | uniq -ic"
17:06<LordAro>hang on, ignore that
17:07<LordAro>ok, that whole block is now down to "echo `hg log -R $1 --template "{author}\n"` | sort | uniq -ic > devlist.tmp; cat devlist.tmp"
17:07<LordAro>still not sure how to get rid of the temp file
17:07<@Yexo>why the echo / cat?
17:07<@Yexo>just do "hg log -R $1 --template "{author}\n"` | sort | uniq -ic"
17:10<LordAro>fixed :)
17:11<LordAro>so basically, my way was massively over complicated?
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17:19<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but that's very common for "first tries" :)
17:19<LordAro>hmm... ohloh.net doesn't display total number of commits anymore...
17:19<LordAro>:P
17:23<LordAro>hmm... RichK and signde are not noted to be developers, yet they have commits in trunk...
17:23<LordAro>are (were) they devs? or just given special permission?
17:26<@Yexo>looking at https://www.ohloh.net/p/openttd/contributors ?
17:26<@Yexo>a lot of people are not listed as developer, you have to fill in that yourself I think
17:26<LordAro>in the readme also
17:27<LordAro>they are just listed in 'thanks to'
17:28<LordAro>same for pasky and hackykid, it would seem
17:28<@Yexo>no idea
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17:30<LordAro>methinks Rubidium is the only one still around who is old enough to remember :)
17:30<@Yexo>certainly not
17:31<@Yexo>good night
17:31<LordAro>night
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17:42<+michi_cc>LordAro: Improvement for your script: "git shortlog -n -s" :p
17:42<LordAro>shh! :P
17:42<LordAro>i did come across something similar when i was googling solutions :)
17:43<Zuu>so git users care more about commit stats than hg users?
17:43<Zuu>s/users/developers/g
17:43<+michi_cc>hackykid was old PBS methinks, and pasky was (is) mentioned in some code comments for NewGRF code.
17:44<Wolf01>'night
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17:45<@Terkhen>good night
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---Logclosed Wed Aug 22 00:00:41 2012