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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-08-26

---Logopened Sun Aug 26 00:00:45 2012
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02:20<andythenorth>hmm
02:21<andythenorth>the world gets neither better nor happier if I reply to that newgrf changing thread, right?
02:24*andythenorth should never go in the suggestions forum
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02:27<andythenorth>oh dear
02:30<@planetmaker>morning andythenorth and all others
02:30<andythenorth>lo planetmaker
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02:36<GondonyGlaz>Are some Russians here?
02:37<@planetmaker>yes
02:37<@planetmaker>but I'm not one of them
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03:32<andythenorth>hmm
03:33<andythenorth>some people seem to labour under the fallacy that open source is a collectivist, group effort towards some good end
03:33<andythenorth>whereas it's a prime example of Ayn Rand-style individualism producing a beneficial result
03:34<andythenorth>open source works because people pursue selfish ends
03:34*andythenorth will now go away again
03:34<andythenorth>philosophy is _probably_ not the anti-dote to fuckheads :P
03:35<Kjetil>Go play with your closed source facistic OS
03:36<andythenorth>is play allowed in the Kingdom of Apple?
03:36<andythenorth>or must we all spend our time organising our music collections by genre?
03:37<Kjetil>When you mention it.. probably not. You should probably go to some hipster cafe instead
03:37<andythenorth>I have seen our future hell, and it is alphabetised
03:37<Supercheese>and rated 1-5 stars
03:38<andythenorth>and organised into playlists, to suit your every mood
03:38*andythenorth writes some code
03:39*Supercheese builds some airships
03:39*planetmaker fixes some tunnel entrances
03:41*Kjetil is going to spend the day watching a live broadcastt of a boat on TV
03:41*Prof_Frink is going to jump off a cliff.
03:42<andythenorth>do it when the tide is in
03:42*Supercheese loves autorefit
03:43-!-Alberth [~hat3@2001:980:272e:1:21a:92ff:fe55:fc8d] has joined #openttd
03:43-!-mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ
03:43<@planetmaker>moin Alberth
03:44<@Alberth>o/ planetmaker
03:44<andythenorth>o/
03:44<@Alberth>hi andy
03:54<@Terkhen>good morning
03:54<@Alberth>yo Terkhen!
03:54<@planetmaker>hello Terkhen
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04:22<@planetmaker>quak
04:22<frosch123>moin :)
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04:33<@Terkhen>hi frosch123
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04:34<frosch123>hola terkhen :p
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05:02<Wolf01>hello o/
05:02<@Alberth>hi Wolf01
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05:37-!-Zuu_ [~Zuu@109.58.144.100.bredband.tre.se] has joined #openttd
05:40<Zuu_>Hello
05:40<andythenorth>Zuu_: ! \o/
05:41<Zuu_>Did you play any more games? I saw your PM but hav not yet had time to respond to it.
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05:42<andythenorth>Zuu_: no more games yet
05:42<andythenorth>my laptop died :P
05:42<andythenorth>planetmaker Alberth yexo frosch123: fancy MP GS today ?
05:42-!-guru3 [~guru3@90-224-111-173-no225.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
05:43<@Alberth>fine with me :)
05:43<andythenorth>either FIRS NoCargoGoal, or we write this idea I had "Power Grid" :)
05:44<andythenorth>"The 5 largest cities want to adopt electricity"
05:44<andythenorth>"To earn tycoon status, build a power plant in each city, and deliver coal to it"
05:44<@planetmaker>sorry, I'm away today
05:44<andythenorth>30-40 years to get it done
05:44<@planetmaker>But sure you can use the server
05:44<andythenorth>Default industry
05:45<Zuu_>Im witing for my train home and will surely not hav stable enough internet to play on.
05:46<andythenorth>could write a GS :D
05:46<@Terkhen>hi Zuu_ :)
05:46<@planetmaker>server is still running
05:46<Zuu_>Hehe yep
05:46<@planetmaker>so it's easy to load a new game
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05:48<Zuu_>Collecting yearly cargo delivery statistics with exactly correct year change date is non-trivial in a GS.
05:48<Zuu_>But with a few days give and take it is doable.
05:48<andythenorth>could change the goal....
05:48<andythenorth>to be easier to code...
05:49<andythenorth>is there a DNS problem in EU somewhere?
05:49<andythenorth>various german / northern european sites are failing to resolve for me
05:49<TrueBrain>lolz, too general question, answer has to be yes :P
05:49*andythenorth will use down for me
05:49<Rubidium>andythenorth: if you mean that /. is down for me, then yes ;)
05:49<Zuu_>Possible. My Opera Mini fails at the moment but not the android default browser.
05:50<andythenorth>"it's just me"
05:50<andythenorth>must be this ISP
05:50<TrueBrain>andythenorth: 10 hours ago a major router in Germany crashed, but that is already fixed :P
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05:57<TrueBrain>ugh, websites where you cannot type a date, but have to select it ... I have to go back 4 years ....
05:59<@Terkhen>D
05:59<@Terkhen>:D
05:59<Zuu_>Or when the leading zero for time is mandatory.
06:00<andythenorth>TrueBrain: I am making one of those right now
06:00<andythenorth>oh
06:00<TrueBrain>or otherwise annoying: in the time field, tab doesnt bring me to minutes
06:00<TrueBrain>I have to CLICK to get there
06:00<andythenorth>no I'm making the other way around. I have fields where you *have* to type only
06:00<andythenorth>I haven't bothered testing a datepicker for Bootstrap yet
06:06<frosch123>TrueBrain: welcome to touchscreens :)
06:07-!-bolli [~Sam@146.90.1.217] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
06:07<frosch123>in 4 years you have to draw the number with your mouse on some area
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06:27<andythenorth>so MP NoCargoGoal game later today, FIRS, maybe ~2 hours or so? 2pm UK time?
06:28-!-Zuu_ [~Zuu@109.58.144.100.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Quit: Bye]
06:28<frosch123>that's 15:00 in sane time?
06:28<frosch123>:p
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06:30<@planetmaker>andythenorth: then join the channel so that I can give you ops so that you can command the server. Or whoever wants to play
06:30<@planetmaker>I'm about to leave in the next 30 minutes
06:31<@planetmaker>or ask ammler to give it to you later
06:31<andythenorth>frosch123: do you know how to use !rcon?
06:31*andythenorth doesn't
06:33<frosch123>you need to be op in the channel at least or so
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06:35<frosch123>andythenorth: i don't, but i know where to look in the source for the documentation :p
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06:42<welshdragon>Morning, Why can't I choose the 'large' option when founding towns?
06:42<bolli>I thought the large option was only there for cities?
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06:43<@planetmaker>welshdragon: that's for the SE only
06:43<welshdragon>aah
06:43<@planetmaker>if you fund towns, you don't start big. You have to build it slowly ingame
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07:32<bolli>Hmm
07:32<bolli>Is there any way to extract a crash log when the game just freezes and ends up getting zapped by the OS? :p
07:37-!-Progman [~progman@p57A18EFD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
07:37<frosch123>depends on what os you are :)
07:38<frosch123>on linux you can attach a debugger, or alternatively send it signal 6
07:38<frosch123>the former is better ofc
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07:45-!-mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ
07:47<bolli>hmm
07:47<bolli>I didn't get one then
07:47<bolli>however: *** OpenTTD Crash Report ***
07:50<@planetmaker>please. Use. A. Pasteservice. Like pastebin.com. Or paste.openttdcoop.org
07:51<bolli>Will do :p
07:51<bolli>I'm just reading through it to see if theres anything I did to cause it....
07:52<+glx>if there is an easy reason it's written at the begin
07:52<bolli>ok :p
07:52<bolli>http://pastebin.com/NRCbhUxx
07:53<+glx>segfault
07:54<+glx>.dmp is needed for more info
07:54<bolli>https://dl.dropbox.com/u/13385764/ottd/crash/crash.dmp
07:54<bolli>and the interesting thing is that the sprite hasn't loaded on https://dl.dropbox.com/u/13385764/ottd/crash/crash.png
07:55<bolli>on the purchase window
07:57-!-LordPixaII [~pixa@79-68-102-234.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #openttd
08:01<+glx>indeed crash when loading a sprite
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08:02*Rubidium smells (re)compiling a NewGRF while it's being used by OpenTTD
08:03<bolli>Hmm
08:03<bolli>Not recompiling
08:03<bolli>But its in a dropbox folder that symlinked to newgrf
08:03<+glx>anyway broken newgrf is the more probable cause
08:03<bolli>probably....
08:04<bolli>I'm fiddling with one currently...
08:05<andythenorth>Rubidium: I do that all the time :)
08:05<andythenorth>and sometimes...it causes a crash :)
08:07<Hirundo>I recently changed NML to unlink the file before writing, but that only helps on linux-y systems
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08:13<SquireJames>Wow I overslept
08:13<Fremen>join the club :p
08:16<Fremen>anyone know a great 'infinite' server? as in no inflation, going hundreds of years :p just wondering how a map looks like after 1000 years of town growth
08:16-!-bolli1 [~Sam@193.221.125.91.dyn.plus.net] has joined #openttd
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08:18<SquireJames>like something from Judge Dredd I imagine
08:32<@Terkhen>Fremen: open the multiplayer server list ingame and sort it by years
08:33<@Terkhen>the server that has been in the same savegame for 11000 ingame years looks promisingly eternal
08:33<Fremen>hehe yeah, but would be bnice to be in one when it's around starting date
08:33<Fremen>nice*
08:34<Fremen>I'll think about running a server by myself
08:34<Fremen>hoping that people find it :p
08:35<@Terkhen>given the client/server ratio, that is unlikely unless your server offers something that the others do not
08:37<Fremen>i see
08:37<Fremen>I should know more aout huw much network traffic a server generates
08:38<Fremen>i mean this game
08:38<TrueBrain>that is all well documented :)
08:38<Fremen>oh
08:38<TrueBrain>short answer: a non-issue for any non-dialup :P
08:38<Fremen>nice
08:38<TrueBrain>CPU on the other hand ...
08:38<Fremen>I have a bandwidth limit though
08:39<Rubidium>unless your broadband is capped at 500 MB/month or so
08:39<Fremen>haha 100Gb a month:)p
08:39<TrueBrain>@calc 500*1024 / 2 / 30 / 24 / 60 / 60
08:39<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: 0.0987654320988
08:39<TrueBrain>@calc 500*1024 / 2 / 30 / 24 / 60
08:39<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: 5.92592592593
08:39-!-sla_ro|master [~slaco@78.96.213.97] has quit [Quit: DANGER sla.ro is OFFLINE DANGER]
08:39<TrueBrain>even then you can run 6 people Rubidium, 24/7 :P
08:40<TrueBrain>hmm, my math is in failure somewhere ... what-ever :P
08:40<TrueBrain>@calc 2*60*60*24*30
08:40<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: 5184000
08:40<TrueBrain>I am lost :(
08:41<Rubidium>5GB / client a month if connected 24/7
08:41<Fremen>for what size of map?
08:41<TrueBrain>any
08:41<Warod>hah
08:41<Rubidium>and actually using the 2 kB/s
08:41<TrueBrain>map size is totally irrelevant for network traffic
08:41<Fremen>okay
08:42<Fremen>so a 6 player would result in 30GB per month
08:42<Fremen>if continuously connecte
08:42<Fremen>d
08:42<TrueBrain>worst case, sure
08:42<Rubidium>and that includes the players building stuff, chatting and such
08:43<Rubidium>if they don't do that you would use less
08:43<Fremen>where can I find info on what ports to forward and such?
08:43<TrueBrain>@port
08:43<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
08:43<TrueBrain>@ports
08:43<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
08:43<Rubidium>ugh... my work laptop is so unfit for duty
08:43<TrueBrain>owh, both work :P
08:44<TrueBrain>Fremen: or more general, README.txt
08:44<Warod>@pots
08:45<Warod>Damn. It didn't fall into my trick of methods of antique communications. ;)
08:45<Rubidium>database heavy application (somewhat computation heavy as well) and not reaching more than 5% CPU; the rest is lost in waiting for (disk) IO of the DBMS
08:45<TrueBrain>sucks to be you :D
08:46<Warod>I just bought 250 GB OCZ Vertex 4 for my work/hobbies/freetime laptop. ;)
08:46<Rubidium>what antique communication?
08:46<Warod>POTS
08:46<TrueBrain>and pans
08:46<Rubidium>try implementing RFC6214
08:47<Rubidium>now that's old fashioned
08:47<TrueBrain>RFC1149 I like more
08:47<TrueBrain>as IPv6 is n ot old fashioned
08:49<TrueBrain>RFC2549 at least has pictures
08:51<Rubidium>"In some locations, such as New Zealand, a significant proportion of carriers are only able to execute short hops, and only at times when the background level of photon emission is extremely low. This will impact the availability and throughput of the solution in such locations."
08:53<Fremen>darn can't join those longterm servers because of the version
08:55<bolli1>Reading back up... 30GB seems a lot more than I use....
08:55<bolli1>I run a server thats got a few people connected at any time, and it barely uses 4-5GB/ month....
08:55<Fremen>that's good news
08:56<TrueBrain>bolli1: what about "worst case" didnt you understand? :)
08:56<bolli1>Worst case can't be 5-6x worse? :p
08:56-!-bolli1 is now known as bolli
08:56<TrueBrain>there is a limitation on the worst case? Kewl
08:57<Rubidium>bolli: how long does it take to go from London to New York?
08:58<bolli>As long as a piece of string. Whereas, data usage is fairly predictable :p
08:59<Rubidium>I'd say the time you need to get from London to New York is fairly predictable as well
08:59<bolli>But it depends how you get there ;)
09:00<bolli>I'm just saying that 30GB is a significant overexaggeration in my experience :p
09:00<TrueBrain>it is a WORST CASE
09:00<bolli>*for the worst case
09:00<@Alberth>worst case != realistic estimate
09:00<bolli>fine... :p
09:02<Rubidium>also, it's actually not the worst case. It's the measured average on a busy server for a few hours times two
09:02<Rubidium>in absolute worst case it can use as much as the bandwidth to your server allows
09:03<TrueBrain>that would be a bug :)
09:04<Fremen>can't find a link to the 1.2.1 version :( just want to check one of those insane servers :p
09:04<Rubidium>Fremen: openttd.org/download-stable/<version>
09:05<Fremen>awesoem thnx
09:05<Fremen>awesome*
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09:13<Fremen>lol some serve ris running on hard, inflation on in year 4000+
09:13<Fremen>doesn't look fun :p
09:13<@Alberth>some people prefer a hard game
09:15<Fremen>inflation model is just wrong after so much time
09:16<andythenorth>Terkhen: Yexo MP NoCargoGoal with FIRS ?
09:16<Rubidium>bolli: did some calculations and if you didn't change the frame_freq, then you have, on average 1/6th of a player connected
09:17<Rubidium>as ~1850 bytes per second are used for announcing the frames
09:17<andythenorth>OpenTTD runs in 10.7 btw
09:17<andythenorth>not full screen o/c :P
09:18<Rubidium>bolli: oh... sorry, 1 player on average
09:18<andythenorth>V453000: MP NoCargoGoal FIRS?
09:22<Zuu_>andythenorth: The name is NoCarGoal :-)
09:22<andythenorth>oops :P
09:22<andythenorth>Zuu_: you're on a train?
09:22<Zuu_>yep
09:23<andythenorth>can't play MP?
09:23<Zuu_>I'm taking a look on the other suggestions for the GS and adding those that are not to complicated to add.
09:23<Zuu_>I fear not.
09:25<@Terkhen>andythenorth: sorry, I'm doing house chores now :P
09:25<andythenorth>np
09:29<Zuu_>What is the unit size of Steel cargo? 1 tone? 2 tonnes? 0.5 tonnes?
09:29<Zuu_>Eg what does one internal cargo unit correspond to in the GUI?
09:30<Rubidium>use {CARGO}
09:30<Rubidium>and don't really care ;)
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09:30<Zuu_>How are the two params for {CARGO} joined togeather to one integer parameter?
09:31<Rubidium>it takes two parameters
09:31<Zuu_>Or does {CARGO} grab two integers from the param list?
09:31<Zuu_>amount + cargo id? or the other way around?
09:31<Rubidium>IIRC the other way around
09:32<Matulla>hi all ,Question if i got a station laft and right on the city same station name the one is near to a powerplant does it has a effect if i transport cole to the near or far station all acept cole
09:33<Zuu_>It doesn't matter to which part of a station that you transport cargo to.
09:33<Zuu_>As long as all parts belong to the same station name.
09:34<Matulla>ok thanks
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09:34<Fremen>lol
09:34<TrueBrain>hit and run
09:34<Fremen>indeed
09:34<Fremen>no ethics !
09:34<TrueBrain>ethics is for people who give a shit
09:35<Fremen>well I do :s
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09:36<Rubidium>noob IRC etiquette/ethics is to expect an answer within milliseconds, if not you disconnect, otherwise you disconnect just after the first answer was given
09:37<Fremen>mIRC ethics = connect and never manually disconnect
09:37<TrueBrain>and then you end up with 116 people in a channel
09:37<Fremen>and tha's ok :p
09:37<TrueBrain>I once considered writing a bot who kicks anyone who hasn't said anything for 7+ days :P
09:37<TrueBrain>just to see what happens
09:37<Fremen>bad idea
09:38<TrueBrain>depends on what your goal is :D
09:38<Fremen>hehe
09:38<TrueBrain>mine would be to see how many really notice :)
09:38<Rubidium>just use @names ;)
09:38<Fremen>well on quakenet I'm still in channels from my 2001 UT clan which has disbanded 10 years ago :p
09:41<frosch123>@calc 80*5*12*11
09:41<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 52800
09:42<Zuu_>No matter which order I provide cargo_id or cargo_amount, the string output ends just before the {CARGO} code. :-(
09:43<Fremen>hm is there a server function to automatically bankrupt playr companies after not logging in for xx years?
09:43<Zuu_>I guess I need to wait until I can run OpenTTD from a debugger and see what goes wrong. Maybe dual param string codes are not (yet) supported in GS/AIs?
09:44<Zuu_>Fremen: IIRC yes. See your openttd.cfg
09:44<Zuu_>there are one value for passworded companies and one for unprotected companies
09:44<Zuu_>IIRC, the name to look for is 'autoclean'
09:47<Fremen>okay thnx
09:47*Fremen leaves channel
09:47<Fremen>:p
09:47<Fremen>the one thing I'm really worried about is server restarts
09:48<Fremen>if my power fails or something is it easy to restart it?
09:48<Fremen>the server ofc :p
09:48<Zuu_>If you have autosave enabled
09:48<Zuu_>You can resume from there
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09:48<Fremen>great
09:48<Zuu_>However, all passwords will be lost if you load an autosave.
09:49<Fremen>ouch
09:57-!-Terkhen changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.2.2 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only
09:57<@Terkhen>X
09:57<@Terkhen>
09:58<@Terkhen>meh, this computer is starting to get very stupid
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10:07<bolli>Right, another question....
10:07<bolli>How do I Make a train with push-pull carriages?
10:08<bolli>IE- I have a locomotive with a DBSO, how do I make that work?
10:13<Eddi|zuHause>it's not really possible, but some NewGRFs "cheat" in switching around the graphics of the engine and the last wagon. but this may be tedious if you have lots of possible combinations
10:15<Eddi|zuHause>you would read "vehicle_is_reversed" in a switch, in that case
10:16<Eddi|zuHause>for the engines 0 means "draw engine" and 1 "draw wagon", for the last wagon the other way around
10:16<Eddi|zuHause>note that this will have horrible side effects if you have wagons of different length
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10:18<Eddi|zuHause>you should also check "extra_callback_info1" to only do this switching on the map, not in the depot or vehicle lists/details
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10:42<bolli>hmm
10:44<bolli>So theres no nice way to do it?
10:44<Eddi|zuHause>no
10:44<Eddi|zuHause>it needs support for driving backwards in the game mechanics, which is a difficult task, which nobody dared to implement yet
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12:31<Muxy>Yexo: about ET_VEHICLE_OLD, i wrote a topic at tt-forums with a poll. AI writers will be able to reply and choose what they want.
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12:35<@Alberth>seems like a good idea
12:35<@Alberth>although you may not get agreement :p
12:36<@Alberth>I was wondering whether you could keep an administration yourself, ie you know when you bought it, and you know its lifetime (I hope)
12:38<@Alberth>if you don't know its lifetime, another option is to set the event to something early, and you can keep an administration from that moment perhaps
12:38<Muxy>Alberth: i think this event will permit to avoid a loop on all vehicles and check the age
12:39<@Alberth>true
12:39<Muxy>and you know that looping in script uses lot of cpu time
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12:40<Muxy>and if you look at dictatorAI (i dont really know about other), it builds a lot of vehicle.
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12:42<@Alberth>what I mean is that you store the end time at the moment you buy the vehicle
12:42<Muxy>sure
12:42<Muxy>but you need some trigger to send it to depot and renew it
12:42<@Alberth>you don't do daily or monthly loops or so?
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12:43<Muxy>i dont write AI Scripts
12:43<@Alberth>just add a check whether the first end time has pased or not
12:43<@Alberth>ah, ok :)
12:44<Muxy>but if someone request it for its AI it's just because the daily/monthly loop are to heavy
12:44<@Alberth>that seems likely :)
12:45<TrueBrain>why not make a parameter (explicit) with the time till it ages?
12:45<TrueBrain>so you get first one with -1 year, than 0 year, than <whatever> year?
12:45<@Alberth>TrueBrain: should be limited to the last -12 to +12 months, like the player
12:46<TrueBrain>Alberth: I really wouldnt know when these things are triggered; but Yexo worries about that it triggers 3 times, if I read this correctly
12:46<Muxy>TrueBrain: Script parameter ?
12:46<TrueBrain>which indeed is wrong, to trigger the same identical event 3 times
12:46<TrueBrain>so .. just add a parameter ;)
12:46<TrueBrain>Muxy: in ScriptEventVehicleIsOld
12:46<TrueBrain>it now carries only vehicle_id
12:47<Muxy>TrueBrain: not 3 times, but 2 and 1 every year after lifetime
12:47<TrueBrain>so add some parameter to indicate which version to it
12:47<TrueBrain>something like 'year' or what-ever
12:47<Muxy>who sets the parameter ? Script
12:47<TrueBrain>then the events are no longer identical
12:47<TrueBrain>no, ofc not
12:48<TrueBrain>that is silly talk
12:48<TrueBrain>why would a script set the parameter of the event?
12:48<Muxy>to be warned when requested
12:48<TrueBrain>que?
12:48<TrueBrain>that makes little sense ...
12:48<Muxy>like an alarm clock
12:48<TrueBrain>like I said: exactly like the vehicle_id
12:48<TrueBrain>but just an extra parameter
12:49<Muxy>goal is to trigger this event only once regardless of the version
12:49<TrueBrain>I think that is wrong
12:49<TrueBrain>which is what I am saying
12:49<Muxy>ok, but Yexo said : this event must be triggered only once
12:50<TrueBrain>and I disagree; I suggest a counter purposal
12:51<Muxy>yop but as it will be triggered, the script must take action : send to depot, and renew
12:51<TrueBrain>so, to summarize: trigger the event N times as it is needed, just like a human player gets the event, but add a parameter to the event which indicates how many years (negative for future) the vehicle has been expired
12:52<TrueBrain>avoids identical events being triggered under different circumstances, and maintains the NoAI philosohy: do the same for AIs as happens for players
12:52<Muxy>and in the script, what will be the logic to choose the event version to take action... just kiss, and with 1 event it will be ok
12:52<TrueBrain>I disagree, and your poll shows exactly why it is wrong
12:53<TrueBrain>the fact you have multiple moments you can trigger this event, shows there is not a single moment you should do it
12:54<Muxy>yes but in the script you just need 1 trigger to perform action. if you have many triggers, then you must have a logic to choose what version you will use
12:54<TrueBrain>if (year != -1) continue;
12:54<TrueBrain>owh no .. the logic is killing me :D
12:54<TrueBrain>it is identical to filtering which events you care about ;)
12:55<Muxy>try to optimze the script by removing all useless things
12:55<TrueBrain>by removing freedom of choice?
12:55<TrueBrain>sounds a wrong kind of optimization
12:56<TrueBrain>for example, you don't need the event, as Alberth pointed out
12:56<TrueBrain>personally, I would like to know every year my vehicle is not renewed
12:56<TrueBrain>it can indicate issues and problems
12:56<TrueBrain>a player does receive this information .. and an AI won't?
12:57<TrueBrain>the whole NoAI framework is build on: if the player can do it, the AI can too. If the player can't? Neither can the AI
12:58<Rubidium>why not just add the date of the event? That's probably useful for all events
12:58<TrueBrain>Rubidium: how would that help? :)
12:58<Rubidium>after all, the user can see the date of the event as well
12:58<TrueBrain>I think you misunderstand the issue :)
12:58<Muxy>ok, i dont care about sending this event once or many. Just following Yexo wills. better have this discussion with Yexo, or write something in the tt-forum thread.
12:58<Rubidium>I probably will
12:59<TrueBrain>Rubidium: the EVENT is now triggered every year, from -1 year from expiring
12:59<TrueBrain>with no indication inside the EVENT it is different
12:59<TrueBrain>so year N you get the event, year N+1, N+2, ...
12:59<TrueBrain>Yexo indicates in the bug tracker he wants it only triggered once
12:59<TrueBrain>for example, at -1 years of expiring
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13:00<TrueBrain>I can understand that partily, as every year you get an identical event, which is weird
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13:00<TrueBrain>so Rubidium, adding the date the event is triggered doesn't really help in that solution; or I must understand you wrong ofcourse :)
13:00<Muxy>but for this event, goal is to replace asap a vehicle
13:00<TrueBrain>Muxy: in your AI, maybe
13:00<TrueBrain>mine might not
13:00<Rubidium>if you want to send only one, then just send the first one
13:00<Muxy>depend on AI's Goal
13:01<TrueBrain>I might always want my vehicles to be 5 years over date
13:01<TrueBrain>Rubidium: which is wrong, in my opinion; just send one every year, like a player gets them
13:01<TrueBrain>why make that desision for the AI writer?
13:01<Rubidium>then what *is* the problem?
13:01<TrueBrain>I don't know :D
13:01<TrueBrain>I only suggest to add a paramter with the year to expire, for clarity sake
13:01<Rubidium>and how does adding the date of the event not help?
13:02<TrueBrain>how does it?
13:02<Muxy>sending event only once (yexo will)or many times (truebrain will)
13:02<Rubidium>you can calculate the overdue age
13:02<TrueBrain>Rubidium: you can anyway ;)
13:02<TrueBrain>but isn't sending the year as parameter more clear?
13:02<Rubidium>and it might be very useful for all other events that you know whether it's recent or not
13:02<TrueBrain>at least, visible to the user? :)
13:02<Muxy>AIScript dont care about event date. Goal is to renew vehicle asap (in a competion way of playing)
13:02<TrueBrain>Rubidium: on that last part I agree, but that is something else :D
13:02<Rubidium>like industry closure
13:03<TrueBrain>having an event date sounds like a really good idea
13:03<TrueBrain>but it doesn't really solve this problem at hand
13:03<TrueBrain>it makes it rather annoying to calculate it tbh :)
13:04<Rubidium>just use superlib or so to implement that
13:04<TrueBrain>waste of opcodes tbfh
13:04<Rubidium>then you can also use it in your normal code to renew them two years before expiring
13:04<TrueBrain>and personally, I think events should be unique
13:04<Muxy>other way : event can be sent every year, starting from buying with parameter : year remaning till lifetime
13:04<Rubidium>then you need the date
13:05<Rubidium>as (almost) all other events are inherently ununique as well
13:05<TrueBrain>are they? :)
13:05<Rubidium>industry closure, is that unique? No, after a few year the replacement industry closes and sends the exact same event
13:05<TrueBrain>maybe I should word it better, but when I get an event VEHICLE_ARRIVED
13:05<TrueBrain>it is rather unique, as in: I know exactly what happened based on the parameters
13:05<TrueBrain>which arrived where and when
13:05<Rubidium>production changes: same idea
13:06<Rubidium>industry opened: same idea
13:06<TrueBrain>I think you have an other understand of unique, so please listen for a bit
13:06<TrueBrain>when I get an industry opened, I know where and what industrry opened
13:06<TrueBrain>so I know all there is need to know
13:06<TrueBrain>when I receive a vehicle-old, I .. know .. too little
13:06<TrueBrain>is it -1 year? 0 year?
13:06<TrueBrain>in that way, I mean unique
13:06<TrueBrain>it misses a constraint
13:06<TrueBrain>maybe that is more clear to understand?
13:07<TrueBrain>I tried to write all events to send just enough information, that you can uniquely identify an event
13:07<TrueBrain>a production change, you know which industry changed; there can be no doubt about it
13:07<TrueBrain>you get what I mean now?
13:08<Rubidium>actually, that may very well be an previous industry
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13:08<TrueBrain>you are streching
13:08<TrueBrain>but, to make it easier: lets assume I read my events as soon as they arrive
13:08<Rubidium>and I reckon you get a vehicle ID with the vehicle old age event just like you only get an industry ID with the new industry event
13:09<TrueBrain>but we never send 2 events for the same industry ID ;)
13:09*Rubidium wonders what the difference is between: AIIndustry.GetLocation(event.GetIndustryID()) and AIVehicle.GetAgeLeft(event.GetVehicleID())
13:10<TrueBrain>the industry-open / industrID event is unique, in the sense .. ugh, I have been over this :P
13:10<TrueBrain>dammit, I run out of ways to explain this :)
13:10<TrueBrain>take the crash event
13:10<TrueBrain>would you say the crash_site parameter is unneeded?
13:10<TrueBrain>as you can ask the vehicle where it is?
13:10<Rubidium>if you read the event queue immediately the vehicle age event is unique as well
13:11<TrueBrain>okay, let me try this differently ..
13:11<TrueBrain>if you remove all silly raceconditions
13:11<Rubidium>no, by the time you read the queue the vehicle might be gone. And it might be hindsight that the same happens with most other events
13:11<TrueBrain>like industry open / close / open under the same ID
13:11<TrueBrain>silly stuff like that
13:11<TrueBrain>if we assume that you are "quick" enough to be in time to read industry data like that
13:12<TrueBrain>in that assumption, all current events are identifyable by their parameters
13:12<TrueBrain>right?
13:12<Rubidium>yes
13:12<TrueBrain>now we have this vehicle-old event
13:12<TrueBrain>if the event arrives, as script, you miss a vital piece of information
13:12<TrueBrain>a crash event, happens when you crashed
13:12<TrueBrain>industry open, when you open an industry
13:13<TrueBrain>vehicle-old .. well .. -1 year, 0 year, N years ..
13:13<TrueBrain>it can be a wide variaty of things
13:13<TrueBrain>you see the subtle difference here?
13:13<Rubidium>if you are "quick" enough you get that info with GetAgeLeft
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13:14<TrueBrain>the main difference is, the "quick" is in other magnitudes here
13:14<TrueBrain>I personally would find it rather unclear to receive a vehicle-old, which might be any of the above cases
13:14<TrueBrain>I have no clue which
13:14<TrueBrain>where industry-open is .. well ...
13:14<TrueBrain>duh :P
13:14<TrueBrain>that said, I do agree that industry-open should also get IndustryType as parameter
13:15<TrueBrain>in all cases, I think Yexo has a long enough backlog to laugh his ass off ;)
13:15<Rubidium>but does it matter? If you handle the queue after a year and you want to use the event to renew vehicles that are 5 years overdue. Do you use the "5" value of your proposed event, or the GetAgeLeft of the moment you read/handle the event?
13:16<Rubidium>because in the former case you renew them at over due age 6
13:16<TrueBrain>I agree with that; my issue is that the event is unclear
13:16<Rubidium>IMO AIVehicleLost is much more troublesome
13:16<TrueBrain>it becomes this grey area effect
13:16<TrueBrain>and from a lazy-point-of-view, a parameter iseasiest
13:16<Rubidium>as that lovely even can easily be read when the vehicle is not lost at all
13:16<TrueBrain>the Lost one is annoying even as player
13:16<TrueBrain>too often I get that years after the vehicle got lost
13:16<TrueBrain>as my news is backlogged :P
13:17<TrueBrain>the old-event, I see more as: I want to trigger at 2 years, and don't want to do any complex blabla :)
13:17<Rubidium>I rather would like to avoid adding parameters to the events as all it does is make the queue larger (in memory) when the queue isn't read at all
13:17<TrueBrain>boo-fucking-hoo
13:17<TrueBrain>lets not worry about 8 bytes more or less please :D
13:17<TrueBrain>you wanted to add the date ;)
13:17<TrueBrain>now that consumes memory :P
13:17<Rubidium>yes, so I can trash old events
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13:18<TrueBrain>don't start with the memory argument :)
13:18<TrueBrain>it is a non-issue
13:18<TrueBrain>how much memory does the map take?
13:18<TrueBrain>how much does a Squirrel VM take?
13:18<TrueBrain>one parameter more or less won't show up :)
13:18<Rubidium>one not, but it won't take long to add even more "might be useful" parameters
13:19<TrueBrain>seriously, even with 10 parameters each event
13:19<TrueBrain>it is a non-issue :)
13:19<Rubidium>because AIVehicle.foo(event.GetVehicleID() is much more complex than event.foo()
13:20<TrueBrain>anyway, if anything I much rather have N events than one, per vehicle
13:20<Rubidium>the problem with the events is that there is NO maximum bound on the amount in the queue, so for AIs that don't care about events it is a (massive) memory leak
13:20<TrueBrain>and to make them somewhat unique in the queue, I would add a year parameter
13:20<TrueBrain>feel free to disagree :D
13:20<Fremen>aha server is running for testing, incredibly easy and light in cpu
13:20<TrueBrain>that is a completely different problem :)
13:20<TrueBrain>on which I do agree btw, and it shoudl be fixed :)
13:21<Muxy>ok men, now let's place in 2 cases : competitive AI and Lazy AI
13:21<Muxy>in a competitive way, the best is to replace vehicle asap, right ?
13:22<TrueBrain>not really
13:22<TrueBrain>I would replace them a bit later, depending on my wallet
13:22<TrueBrain>sure, it is good for standing
13:22<TrueBrain>but replacing them after 2 years is even better
13:22<TrueBrain>so competitive, if I had the money, I would replace them every 2 years
13:22<Muxy>hum yes, you reached the point
13:22<TrueBrain>there are so many variables there
13:22<Muxy>i forget the money point
13:22<TrueBrain>you cannot say: this should be done, or this
13:22<TrueBrain>it is up to the writer of an AI
13:23<TrueBrain>(it is why the NoAI framework doesn't do anything for you :P)
13:23<Rubidium>so... add the date to the event, add a GetAgeLeft to the AIVehicleAncientEvent that does Vehicle.AgeLeft(ev.GetVEhicleID())-current_date+ev.GetDate()
13:23<Muxy>ok, that's why i changed the poll with another option
13:23<TrueBrain>Rubidium: I guess that would work too, yes
13:23<TrueBrain>and I would add a "max-age-of-event" setting
13:23<TrueBrain>defaulted like 5 years
13:24<Muxy>and the parameter would be usefull to know how many years it remain before lifetime
13:24<TrueBrain>removing events older
13:24<Rubidium>(except when the vehicle is removed)
13:24<TrueBrain>it does leave the race conditions of industry-open, industry-close
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13:24<Muxy>the event can be triggered every year from begining, indicating remaining year from life-time
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13:25<TrueBrain>Muxy: can a player do that?
13:25<Muxy>then the AI choose when its the best moment to replace it
13:25<Muxy>do what ?
13:25<TrueBrain>get an event from the beginngn of a vehicle
13:25<Muxy>checking its vehicle list every year ?
13:25<Muxy>or periodically ?
13:26<TrueBrain>no, by events (news-items, etc)
13:26<TrueBrain>the basic rule always applies: AIs can only get what players get too
13:26<Muxy>ah
13:26<TrueBrain>an AI can poll the vehicle list every year too
13:26<Muxy>yes but cpu consuming
13:26<TrueBrain>the rule might sound a bit bitchy etc, but it keeps AIs fair
13:26<TrueBrain>they can never cheat, as they can never do anything a player can't
13:26<Muxy>but if you say : AI should do what players can do...
13:27<+glx>AI cpu usage is limited anyway
13:27<Muxy>how many vehicle a player can build in a finite period of time ?
13:27<TrueBrain>1 every tick
13:27<TrueBrain>as many as an AI can
13:28<Muxy>by duplicating vehicle, yes
13:28<Muxy>but with other station list, ...
13:29<TrueBrain>streching ... okay, let me rephrase: an AI never receives or can obtain information in a way a player cannot
13:30<Rubidium>actually, then we should trash events much sooner ;)
13:30<TrueBrain>Rubidium: sometimes I get events years after event :P
13:30<TrueBrain>I like those popups
13:30<TrueBrain>and they are SLOW :P
13:31<Rubidium>events for uses have a "best use before" date
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13:33<Wolf01>gtg
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13:34<Rubidium>s/uses/users/
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24498 /trunk/src/lang/welsh.txt:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: welsh - 32 changes by kazzie
13:46-!-DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-118-10.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd
14:01<Fremen>damn addicted to this game
14:02<Fremen>new games come out every month now and I just want to play this :d
14:08<@Alberth>think of all the money you're saving! :)
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14:10<Fremen>hehe :D
14:10<Fremen>ah well TL2 will keep me busy from 31th august though
14:11<Fremen>great thing with openttd is you can play it together with otehr games and activities :p
14:12<TrueBrain>nope; there is a law against that
14:12<TrueBrain>we will sue you
14:15<Fremen>the police as in my gf? :p
14:15<TrueBrain>why is the police in your gf?
14:15<TrueBrain>this is a bit odd story
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14:23<@Alberth>the police is only for finding the guys that violate a low, which is not necessary here, we already know you do
14:23<@Alberth>*law
14:24<TrueBrain>*lol
14:24<TrueBrain>:D
14:24<@Alberth>:D
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14:39<andythenorth>my named anchor is not working :(
14:40<andythenorth>meh
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15:00<Fremen>anyone mind testing joining my server?
15:00-!-SquireJames [52081a66@ircip4.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
15:00<Fremen>not everything is set up yet but just want to know if that works :p
15:01<bolli>what version? :p 1.2.2?
15:01<Fremen>ye
15:02<bolli>whats it called? :p
15:02<bolli>I'll give it a go...
15:02<Fremen>[BE] [Test] Leto's blabla
15:02<Fremen>1935 year
15:03<bolli>apparently it doesn't work...
15:03<Fremen>crap
15:04<Fremen>ports are forwarded, so must be something else
15:04<bolli>Join time?
15:04<Fremen>600
15:04<Fremen>too low? standard is 500
15:04<bolli>hmm
15:05<bolli>put it to something like 4k to test it? :p
15:05<Fremen>aight :p
15:06<bolli>seems to be a fairly slow connection...
15:06<bolli>although, that could be because I'm used to cloud server upload speeds...
15:07<Fremen>shouldn't be to slow but it's a huge map
15:07<Fremen>too*
15:07<bolli>hmm
15:08<bolli>I have mine set to 32000, so thats probably why I don't have any issues with it any more...
15:08<Fremen>can connect to it from other pc but yeah local I guess
15:08<Fremen>always had probas with firewalls and port forwarding while I'm doing nothin wrong :s
15:09<bolli>ah :P
15:09<bolli>Anyway, Seems to have worked
15:09<Fremen>so it's my router being an idiot
15:09<Fremen>aha !
15:09<Fremen>nice
15:09<Chris_Booth>nasty
15:10<bolli>It isn't an ISP provided router is it? :P
15:10<Fremen>nope
15:11<Fremen>I'm in IT sector so I know a bit what I'm doing :p
15:11<Fremen>still I'm no specialist
15:11<bolli>:P
15:12<bolli>One of our clients has been having a lot of trouble lately with their router.... Turns out they got somebody in to do some different IT work and accidentally reset it to factory settings...
15:12<Fremen>...
15:12<bolli>That was about 2 days of faffing with it to get it back to working order again.
15:13<bolli>hmm... I like the Big buttons on that server :P
15:13<Fremen>hehe yeh I discovered the OpenGFX+ stuff
15:14<Fremen>only didn't use the landscape
15:14<Fremen>I liek to see the grid :p
15:14<bolli>:P
15:14<bolli>I might have to try those out....
15:14<Fremen>the normal size is small on a HD monitor
15:14<bolli>:P
15:15<bolli>My laptop doesn't like Openttd on small sizes, I think if i ran it on a HD monitor, it would explode..
15:16<Fremen>:p
15:16<Fremen>I could barely read income per train on the list etc
15:17<Fremen>in those days we all had 800-600 monitors at best
15:17<Fremen>800x600
15:26<SquireJames>Ah the good old days ;)
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15:31<Fremen>there are still people playing at 800x600 ... Diablo 2 insane prople
15:31<Fremen>people*
15:33<bolli>you should see my second monitor at home.... 1998s finest... :P
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15:57<bolli>Toodaloo
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16:34<frosch123>night
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16:56<Zuu>Hmm, when I search through the entire solution for "SHORTCARGO", I only find the cases when it is used, but not any place when that string is defined.
16:57*Zuu is trying to find the place in code which map the string params to their type.
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17:02<+michi_cc>Zuu: That's probably because in strgen it is called CARGO_SHORT. Look at FormatString() in strings.cpp.
17:03<Zuu>I've ended up there now. I see there is a constant CC_CARGO_SHORT that is possible externally linked with {CARGOSHORT}
17:05<+michi_cc>The mapping is in table\strgen_tables.h
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17:07<Zuu>It seems that its not until the news message window is constructed that the string parameters are evaluated in FormatString when they are passed from a GS.
17:08<Zuu>But I'm not exactly sure yet
17:08<@Terkhen>good night
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17:19<Zuu>Problem solved. There is no such identifier as {CARGO}.
17:26<Fremen>hmmm crap, with the OpenGFX+ new GUI there are no groups to put vehicles in ...
17:26<glx>check the advanced options
17:28<Fremen>can't find it
17:28<Fremen>hmm
17:30<glx>http://wiki.openttd.org/Advanced_Settings/Interface#Use_the_advanced_vehicle_list
17:31<Fremen>aha thanks
17:31<Fremen>never had to set that one
17:33<Fremen>wonder why it has reset by itself
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18:07<Fremen>if anyone wants to join, got 2 people on my 512x512 100 year server starting 1935, I want to see how it performs te next 24 hrs !
18:08<Fremen>[BE] [Test] Leto's blabla
18:08<Fremen>blabla as i'm too lazy to type tthe rest
18:09<Kjetil>Is is a desert game with shai-hulud ?
18:09<Fremen>hehe sadly no ;)
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---Logclosed Mon Aug 27 00:00:46 2012