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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-08-28

---Logopened Tue Aug 28 00:00:49 2012
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02:33<andythenorth>we *should* remove the ability to change grfs in game
02:33<andythenorth>newgrfs are done
02:33<andythenorth>we have enough
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02:36<@planetmaker>yes. Especially as updating a newgrf for a newgrf developer still would work
02:36<@planetmaker>just overwrite the file and keep testing
02:36<andythenorth>I'd just patch to put changing grfs back in :P
02:36<@planetmaker>which is from my POV the most often used thing
02:36<andythenorth>we just move the problem upstream to 'people who are capable of patching' :P
02:37<@planetmaker> is the lazy way, could also be like
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02:38-!-mode/#openttd [+v Belugas] by ChanServ
02:38*andythenorth thinks of evil
02:39<andythenorth>invert the mouse if newgrfs are changed :P
02:39<andythenorth>or the palette :P
02:39<@planetmaker>too much trouble
02:39<andythenorth>or put a scrolling marquee across the middle of the screen
02:39<Supercheese>Set the music to Rickroll.midi
02:40<Supercheese>and still disallow changes :P
02:40<andythenorth>make it show goatse :P
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03:09<@Terkhen>good morning
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---Logclosed Tue Aug 28 03:52:34 2012
---Logopened Tue Aug 28 03:57:00 2012
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03:57-!-Irssi: #openttd: Total of 109 nicks [6 ops, 0 halfops, 1 voices, 102 normal]
---Logclosed Tue Aug 28 04:02:20 2012
---Logopened Tue Aug 28 06:20:23 2012
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09:06<thomas001>Hello, i'd like to refit my trains in a depot. as my station is pretty heavy loaded i want to use multiple depots for the refitting, but unfortunately i cannot figure out how to do this, as i can only specify a single depot in a train's schedule. Is there a way to use several depots for refitting?
09:07<Eddi|zuHause>there is a "goto nearest depot" option
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>which is affected by signals and track occupation
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09:09<thomas001>oh...but if all my depots for refitting are full, then the train will go to some depot far away?
09:09<Eddi|zuHause>no, there is a maximum distance
09:09<@planetmaker>depots cannot be overfull, though
09:10<@planetmaker>each depot has an infinite amount of space... or at least for as many trains as you're allowed
09:10<Eddi|zuHause>but it might not choose the one that's gonna be free next in that case
09:11<thomas001>yes i meant if i have for example 2 depots, and in both depots a train is entering or exiting...then a third train comes and executes "go to nearest depot"...will it go do a depot far away?
09:11<@planetmaker>it will not unconditionally find another depot. Whatever the pathfinder finds the "cheapest"
09:12<thomas001>hmm okay, thank you
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09:14<+michi_cc>thomas001: Load a NewGRF that supports autorefit and you might not need a depot anymore ;)
09:14<thomas001>but then the challenge is gone ;)
09:16<@planetmaker>Use the NoCarGoal game script... and the pressure is back on ;-) (with the right parameters)
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10:16<y2000rtc>hi all
10:18<y2000rtc>I have question for last versions of OpenTTD. It is possible to have any rails only with vagons? I mean for nice graphics.
10:18<y2000rtc>Don't anybody know?
10:20<lugo>there's an invisible engine grf
10:21<y2000rtc>Ok, perfect lugo. Thanks a lot.
10:22<y2000rtc>Don't you have any similar tips for better graphics? :o)
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10:31<Fremen>depends what you want
10:31<Fremen>there is so many stuff
10:39<@planetmaker>y2000rtc: your "better" might not be my "better"
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10:44<SpComb> This security update fixes CVE-2012-3436 (Denial of service (server) using ships on half tiles and landscaping).
10:44<SpComb>somehow that's amusing :)
10:48<@planetmaker>in what respect?
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11:02<SpComb>taken out of context
11:02<SpComb>DoS attack using ships
11:03<SpComb>maybe someone should check that apache isn't vulnerable to ships on half-tiles as well? :)
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13:07<TrueBrain>hi Alberth
13:07<@Alberth>TrueBrain here! hi hi!
13:09<@Alberth>the biggest news seems to be a never ending thread about newgrf changing :(
13:09<TrueBrain>popcorn with a capital P
13:10<@Alberth>in that case, just hit CAPS-LOCK :p
13:12<@Alberth>this morning I wondered about handling processing of nested if/elif/else/endif constructs, and ended with a nice macro idea for nml. Not sure that is a good sign :)
13:13<TrueBrain>tells me you are bored :P
13:14<@Alberth>yeah, writing documentation all day about stuff you know in full detail already is not really inspiring :)
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13:14<@Yexo>is writing documentation ever inspiring?
13:15<@Alberth>when it helps to shape your ideas, it is
13:16<@Alberth>except those are usually mostly drawing with boxes and arrows and random words sprinkled around ;)
13:16<@Yexo>yep, I know that kind of "documentation" :p
13:16<@peter1138>newgrf changing?
13:16<TrueBrain>yeah, it is becoming old
13:17<@peter1138>oh, changing a newgrf
13:17<@peter1138>in game
13:17*Alberth nods
13:21*NGC3982 tried that once.
13:21<NGC3982>That too.
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13:36<@Belugas>[13:14] <@Yexo> is writing documentation ever inspiring? <-- good exercise of code review, in fact, at least for me :)
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13:39<@Belugas>hello peter1138 :)
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13:43<@Alberth>250 Hello Wolf01
13:43<TrueBrain>503 Service Temporary Not Available
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24501 /trunk/src/lang/russian.txt:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: russian - 2 changes by kuriatoru
13:46<@Alberth>Nice, you repaired the CIA
13:46<Wolf01>I'm always in trouble when I need to give the correct response with ajax calls :P
13:48<Zuu>And there are some interesting odd response codes in the spec.
13:48<Wolf01>but never the one you need to
13:51<frosch123>hmm, it's tuesday...
13:51<frosch123>i thought it was wednesday for sure
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13:52<@Alberth>mahybe you jumped back a day?
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14:44<@Belugas>andythenorth, I do second tyour motion
14:44<andythenorth>remove newgrf?
14:44<@Belugas>bu but but'll be out of job then!
14:44<andythenorth>don't care
14:44<andythenorth>bored of the whole stupid debate
14:44<andythenorth>I nearly flamed nearly every respondent to that thread
14:44<andythenorth>but I'm doing some work instead :P
14:45<andythenorth>there is nothing much gained by me being a wanker :P
14:45<@Belugas>i have to say, i got bored as well...
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14:45<Hyronymus>IRC through Thunderbird
14:46<andythenorth>one proposal
14:47<andythenorth>instead of developer tools, rename the setting 'fuck_my_game'
14:47<andythenorth>'fuck_my_game' = 1
14:47<andythenorth>other ideas:
14:47<andythenorth>- random timer, game will quit after n minutes if developer tools is on
14:48<andythenorth>- detect changed newgrfs, randomly clear 100 tiles on every game tick
14:48<andythenorth>basically we should introduce loads of deliberate bugs
14:48<andythenorth>large huge bugs
14:48<andythenorth>players will start ascribing them to 'oh, I changed newgrfs'
14:49<andythenorth>if all players get these bugs from 'changed newgrfs'...then forum regulars will start spreading the news that 'changing newgrfs is bad'
14:49<andythenorth>meanwhile we'll recognise the enormouse bugs and close them as 'changed newgrfs'
14:50<andythenorth>and I will patch my build to ignore the 'bugs' so I can actually write fricking newgrf
14:50<andythenorth>seriously, developer tools should require recompiling openttd
14:51<@Yexo>that's feasible for you, but why should an AI or newgrf developer have to recompile openttd?
14:52<@Alberth>patch at binary level is fine too :D
14:52<@Yexo>hmm, force a recompile, provide binaries that enable it but disable networking for those
14:52<@Yexo>means no servers running it, and easy to identify in bug reports
14:53<@Alberth>disable saving :)
14:53<@Yexo>I like that :)
14:54<@Alberth>error message "Cannot save game, you have enabled changing of newgrfs"
14:55<@Alberth>s/changing of newgrfs/developer tools/
14:55<andythenorth>turn off saving +1
14:55<andythenorth>infinite money immediately
14:56<andythenorth>(I have so pressed 'increase money by £10m *so* many times while testing FIRS) :P
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14:56<andythenorth>disable saving would make it hard to share bugs :P
14:56<andythenorth>but meh
14:57<@Alberth>tbh it is quite a long time ago since the previous thread
14:58<@Alberth>perhaps the problem is declining?
14:58<@Alberth>the current thread is just running out of control
14:59<andythenorth>I think there are a few of us looking for an argument :P
15:01<andythenorth>I am not trolling in that thread btw, I am genuinely annoyed :)
15:01<andythenorth>I infer a sense of entitlement from some players (who don't contribute anything) that annoys me :P
15:02<@Alberth>everybody has an opinion about it and thinks it's interesting to say it
15:03<@Alberth>it's just one big mess of opinions without any foundation
15:03*Rubidium agrees with andythenorth's last point
15:04<Rubidium>though I wonder whether people realise what gets axed if everything that requires NewGRFs is axed
15:05<@Alberth>it's safe to assume they don't know :)
15:06<Rubidium>I'd start with bringing signals back to just one type
15:06<Rubidium>and disabling of autorail
15:07<frosch123>next is build on slopes :)
15:08<@Belugas>just play plain TTD ;)
15:08<@Alberth>just revert to r1 :)
15:08<andythenorth>removing things is fun
15:08*andythenorth is removing things from another app at the moment
15:09<frosch123>you can release the old app next year with lots of new featues
15:09<frosch123>just like pricing is made at supermarkets :)
15:09<andythenorth>just make a paid version :P
15:09<andythenorth>we can do paid support
15:09<andythenorth>like red hat and such
15:09<andythenorth>or mysql
15:10<andythenorth>we can employ someone to run ZenDesk
15:10<andythenorth>paid version will allow changing newgrfs in game
15:10<andythenorth>if you report broken
15:10<andythenorth>"You changed newgrfs in game, this feature is unsupported, there is no further help available at this time. Check back in future to see if this issue has been updated"
15:19<frosch123>how much does it cost to call you and ask why one cannot change grfs in game?
15:19<frosch123>how many calls of that type can you handle per hour?
15:19<frosch123>how many hours per week?
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15:22<andythenorth>I would employ someone
15:22<andythenorth>min. wage for 16 year olds is about £3.50 :P
15:22<andythenorth>we offer helpdesk office hours only :P
15:22<andythenorth>(UK time)
15:24<frosch123>is that 8/5 support?
15:24<Rubidium>wow... that rail looks bad
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15:26<andythenorth>frosch123: 9-5
15:26<andythenorth>how many paying players do we need?
15:26<andythenorth>how much is a monthly support contract? €10?
15:26<andythenorth>support is weekdays only
15:27<andythenorth>@calc 3.5 * 8 * 21
15:27<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 588
15:27<andythenorth>@calc 588 / 3
15:27<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 196
15:27<andythenorth>196 paying players at £3 ea
15:27<andythenorth>+ paypal fees
15:27<andythenorth>+ zendesk subscription
15:27<andythenorth>+ billing, taxes, bank charges
15:28<andythenorth>+ employer's liability insurance, indemnity insurance
15:28<andythenorth>+ computer, desk + chair
15:28<andythenorth>+ training
15:28<andythenorth>+ cover for holidays + sickness
15:28<andythenorth>running a business is easy :)
15:30<andythenorth>we probably need about £50k / year revenue and it will work
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15:40<__ln__>hello from baile atha cliath
15:52<NGC3982>Wat the who now?
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15:58<andythenorth>Terkhen: just found your sig link :)
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>who put andythenorth in troll mode?
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: that sounds irish
16:01<__ln__>it is
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16:02<__ln__>"dublin" in englandese
16:03<@Terkhen>andythenorth: I found it quite relevant to many OpenTTD discussions
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16:14<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: I aksed myself the same question :)
16:16<andythenorth>nobody can ever tell what I am serious about, and when I am simply talking crap because I like the sound of it :(
16:16<andythenorth>even my wife :P
16:16<TrueBrain>the latter is what we call trolling :)
16:16<TrueBrain>and I doubt you were serious
16:16<TrueBrain>so we did manage to find the difference ;)
16:16<andythenorth>I was serious about locking newgrf tools
16:16<andythenorth>I was less serious about paid openttd
16:16<TrueBrain>I meant your reply ;)
16:16<andythenorth>mostly because I don't think it's profitable :P
16:16<TrueBrain>in a thread :D
16:17<andythenorth>delete all newgrf?
16:17<andythenorth>seriously, why not? :o
16:17<andythenorth>what would we lose?
16:17<andythenorth>I am playing GS
16:17<andythenorth>with default industries :P
16:18<andythenorth>do other games allow adding / removing mods while a game is running?
16:18<andythenorth>"I would like to change my RAM chips while my computer is running please"
16:19<TrueBrain>most games you have to cycle
16:19<andythenorth>incidentally I pulled a SATA drive out from a running mac on saturday with no ill-effects :P
16:19<andythenorth>it didn't keep running so much :P
16:19<andythenorth>I guess they're hot-swap
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>i once came up with the likeness of exchanging the engine while driving on the motorway.
16:19<TrueBrain>SATA is hot swap :)
16:19<TrueBrain>I pull it all the time :)
16:19<andythenorth>good :)
16:20<andythenorth>after I did it, I had a small moment of 'fuck, now I have three broken macs instead of one' :P
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>you should make sure to unmount the drive first, because the filesystem is usually not hotplug :p
16:20<andythenorth>as I also plugged in another drive :P
16:21<+michi_cc>You can buy machines with hot-swap RAM if you want. It's not *that* exotic anymore.
16:21<TrueBrain>how is it useful?
16:22<andythenorth>I kind of wonder where your data goes during the swap :P
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>you don't want to shut down your multi-billion-dollars-per-second banking computer just to exchange a broken ram module
16:22<+michi_cc>Online capacity grow or replacement of modules with increasing errors.
16:22<+michi_cc>andythenorth: It's called RAIM (i.e. a RAID for memory).
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16:23<andythenorth>makes sense
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>you obviously want some redundancy before trying that :)
16:23<TrueBrain>that exists? Lolz :)
16:23<TrueBrain>sounds rather useless, with ECC etc :P
16:25<+michi_cc>Rather ECC sound quite useless to me. Single bit error correction, two bit error detection (won't get you you're data back) and from three errors you're screwed. If a RAM really goes bad, it's probably going to be the whole IC.
16:26<TrueBrain>at least it detects it :D
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16:35<@Terkhen>hi drac_boy
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16:36<drac_boy>hi Terkhen how're you?
16:39<@Terkhen>a bit sleepy already
16:42<drac_boy>doing ok, just online for a bit now :)
16:49<@Terkhen>good night
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16:51<Asteconn>My name is not Dave
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16:53<Asteconn>Have I joined in the middle of a netsplit?
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>what's the wine way of "uninstalling" stuff?
17:00<andythenorth>rm all the things!
17:00*andythenorth is going to sleep
17:00<Rubidium>Asteconn: most of the people do not say anything at all in here, furthermore it's late at night for a quite significant part of the community
17:00<andythenorth>I am a bad person when I have not enough sleep
17:00<andythenorth>this channel is mostly quiet, apart from the bit that is me
17:01<Asteconn>Rubidium: Oh no not that - I meant the slew of people rejoining at once
17:01<Supercheese>o rly?
17:01<andythenorth>I should get my own channel to monologue in
17:01<Supercheese>That's called a blog
17:01<Asteconn>So I was all "hmmmmmmmm... o.ô"
17:01<andythenorth>blogs take too much effort
17:01<Rubidium>three people in a minute doesn't sound netsplit-ish to me in this channel
17:02<Rubidium>netsplit is more like dozens of people
17:02<Asteconn>I could have been joining at the end of all of the reconnects
17:02*Asteconn nods
17:03<Asteconn>I decided firstly that I needed to lurk moar
17:04<Asteconn>I also came along to see if I could pick someone's brains about ways to manage the crossovers for a 6-line terminus, but I think I have that nailed now ^_^
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17:12<Asteconn>I find it quite annoying when a new train is released and is at a worse reliability rating than the one(s) it replaced
17:12<Supercheese>I never play with breakdowns, so reliability doesn't really matter to me...
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17:15<drac_boy>Asteconn six lines...why?
17:16<Asteconn>I've got four different routes converging on the same station
17:16<Asteconn>I find playing without reliability to not be as fun =3
17:16<Eddi|zuHause>Asteconn: new trains need time to get their reliability up
17:17<Asteconn>Oh yes, I know =] The HST has been out for 3 years now? And it's at 81%. The Merchant Navies I was running before were all 98%
17:19<@Alberth>I usually don't care the early offers, not reliable enough to use
17:20<Asteconn>I always try and build at least one groups worth of prototype HSTs if I can. In UKRS2 they have an awesome skin available only during that year
17:21<@Alberth>That's nice
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>"wine uninstaller" was the answer to my previous question
17:22<@Alberth>I don't use many newgrfs, vehicle newgrfs usually come with too much choice for me
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>(just for reference)
17:23<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: aka 'rm' ? :)
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>"rm" doesn't clean out the registry and stuff :)
17:23<@Alberth>use it more liberally, and you'll find it cleans very well :D
17:24<@Alberth>good night all
17:24<Asteconn>I prefer the choice actually
17:24<Asteconn>Oíche mhaith agat ^^
17:24<Asteconn>But yes
17:24<@Alberth>I like building networks more than running trains
17:24<Asteconn>Makes planning new lines a little more interesting
17:24<Asteconn>I like the balance
17:24<Asteconn>I use NuTracks also
17:24<@Alberth>perhaps I should try it again some time
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, i found like 7GiB worth of newly freed space :)
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17:27<Asteconn>Woo :D
17:27<Asteconn>I discovered that I had an entire hard drive not plummed in once
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17:27*drac_boy prefers real steam locomotives and some actual lowspeed electrics
17:28<drac_boy>so original vehicles are so out of the question :p especially what with no tenders for former and a lack of latter
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>indeed, the original vehicles are amazingly boring
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>no idea how i ever could like such a game :p
17:29<Asteconn>Although they're very adequate for newbies
17:30<Asteconn>I quite like the choice between 3rd rail and overhead electrics too
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>i didn't really get warm with UKRS, though
17:30<Asteconn>I played the original UKRS for a long time
17:30<Asteconn>I still prefer the scaling of the original
17:31<drac_boy>asteconn I never liked ukrs too much, worser with the newer version of ukrs1 ... ukrs2 is hmm well a little better but still meh
17:31<drac_boy>thats me tho
17:31<Asteconn>I quite liked UKRS1 actually
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17:31<Asteconn>Which do you use?
17:32<drac_boy>dbsetxl, japanset, pineapple+extension, canset, and mm still trying that swiss one once in a while but they still have a bit more work to go
17:35<Asteconn>blimey lol
17:35<Asteconn>I'm happy with just the UKRS =3
17:35<Asteconn>I also think that trains look /really/ strange if their fronts aren't yellow
17:36<drac_boy>Asteconn well tbh I prefer to have short infrequent trains so the shrunk capacity that ukrs1/2 has is just a major throwoff tbh
17:37<Asteconn>Does it have shrunk capacity? o.ô
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17:37<drac_boy>nothing than finding that for freight starts your 1920 german train only has a short single station platform while your 1940 british doubleheaded train has a pair of long platforms
17:38<drac_boy>and the funny thing is the info window shows similar capacity for both trains :-|
17:38<drac_boy>but to our own :)
17:42<drac_boy>Asteconn and btw one small thing to think about...
17:43<drac_boy>why it it that for the whole ukrs thing .. only the ukrs1 expansion even had one single electric locomotive for 1920 .. and a slow freight drag type at it?
17:43<drac_boy>nothing else till you wait till 1960 which by then the earlier start date is a bit pointless :)
17:44<drac_boy>of course I haven't bothered reading the long ukrs addon thread on forum so maybe something is in the idea tho
17:46<Asteconn>UKRS1 had two early electrics - one for freight and one for express stuff - they were 1925ish iirc
17:46<drac_boy>you're thinking of the one I mentioned which was actually 1914 btw
17:46<Supercheese>UKRS 2 has those, the EF1 and EE1
17:46<Supercheese>Well, the addon set does
17:47<drac_boy>and just for the contrast sake .. start with dbsetxl and you have 60-90km/h boxcabs already, and the crocodile for medium speed heavy trains is due by then as well. or japan in 1920 well...some unusual electric locos aside to the typical emus
17:48<drac_boy>canset of course was just like the real canada.. electrics in 1920 was only on interurban or local freights up to till BC finally did their electric locos over the mountain
17:49<Asteconn>There's the EM1 and EM2 released in 1941 and 1953 too. And of course you get a really early 3rd rail passenger vehicle too
17:49<drac_boy>mm well 1920>1941 is a rather long wait to me? heh :)
17:51<Eddi|zuHause>DBSet is missing some of the pre-war high end electric engines
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>like the E04 (130km/h) and E18 (150km/h)
17:52<drac_boy>I think that was on purpose due to limiting ids to keep space for much later locos
17:52<drac_boy>although I've seen two supposedly dbsetxl addons in the banana list tho
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>well, the DBSet 0.9 is supposed to have both of them
17:53<drac_boy>and heh to be honest I sometimes find myself smacking into the vehicles sprite limit at times as well (not entirely related to but still linked to dbsetxl nevertheless)
17:54<Asteconn>Depends on the locomotive really. I only ever use the EM1 and the EF1 as freight haulers. If the EM1 is worthwhile I'll always use them for slow coal trains.
17:54<Eddi|zuHause>what sprite limit?
17:54<drac_boy>Asteconn either way sometimes if you're really into pax and not so much for freights you really should be trying the whole set of japan grfs ... you'll find enough trains to rush or pamper passengers with :P
17:54<drac_boy>thats my own thought tho ;)
17:54<drac_boy>rush = commuter trains .. pamper = express trains ... just in case you were lost :)
17:56<drac_boy>oh Asteconn before I almost forgot, the real JNR had some interesting historic tidbits as well. I've been saving some nice photos as well
17:56<Asteconn>Fair enough =]
17:57<drac_boy>like eg a string of special container wagons behind everyday steam power? japan somehow didn't think that was usual considering they ran steam well into the 1970s and a little bit of 1980s anyway :)
17:57<drac_boy>in any other countries that would had already been diesel or electric power instead
17:57<Asteconn>I use either Suburbans or Panniers for commuter and rural lines, and usually steam for express ones, but depending on the reliabilities of the 90mph+ engines
17:58<drac_boy>Asteconn heh well japan train set had it right when they used different carriages for commuters verus express ...
17:58<drac_boy>because to be is always spaced seats with no standing space .. and only 2-4 doors .. while commuter is standing space with several sets of doors
17:58<drac_boy>I don't know of any other train grfs that has this seperation yet
17:59<drac_boy>its no wonder that the short commuter emu can grab 200 passengers in a few ticks then run off while the medium express train takes a few game days to load 200 on the other hand
17:59<drac_boy>just saying :)
18:00<Asteconn>You get the different carriage types in UKRS2
18:00<Asteconn>Although generally, with a few exceptions for later trains, they're interchangable
18:00<drac_boy>hmm so they have any with 6 or 8 sets of doors in ukrs2? just wondering
18:01<Asteconn>But I wouldn't really want to put Clerestory carriages on a train that can go faster than 80
18:01<drac_boy>Asteconn 80km or 80mph?
18:02<drac_boy>hmm yeah 140km/h might be a really good time to have a modern streamlined steel carriage instead
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18:02<Asteconn>There are yes, but functionally they're not really much different
18:02<Asteconn>Although if you couple up a standard carriage to something like the AM10, its loading time drops quite a bit
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18:02<Asteconn>They had multiple doors on
18:02<drac_boy>otherwise for 100km/h it didn't really matter, thats what a lot of the old express trains ran at
18:03<Asteconn>The UKRS has articulated carriages for 120mph running
18:03<drac_boy>nothing like an PRR owned atlantic (a 4-4-2 if you would) with large drivers doing a bit over 100km/h with several heavyweight wagons in tow
18:05<drac_boy>Asteconn what did you think of the 2-6-4T in ukrs btw?
18:05<NGC3982>I don't get it.
18:05<NGC3982>When can i use the logic engine?
18:05<NGC3982>I can't seem to find it.
18:05<drac_boy>you talking of the NUTS set ngc3982?
18:06<Asteconn>I find the 2-6-4 very handy if its reliable enough
18:06<NGC3982>No, the logic engine from the logic engine grf.
18:06<Asteconn>Have you got the thing enabled?
18:06<Asteconn>Also - try putting it at the top of your GRFs list
18:07<drac_boy>Asteconn mm well I am a little crazy for tank locomotives at times :->
18:07<NGC3982>Bah, im in the middle of a server game.
18:07<Asteconn>D'oh! D:
18:07<NGC3982>Oh, never mind
18:07<NGC3982>I found it
18:07<drac_boy>Asteconn after all when compared to tender you have slight shorter train with a bit higher tractive possible as well
18:07<drac_boy>one more wagon on a level route pretty easily
18:08<Asteconn>Depends if I'm after speed or not, and if it's at all reliable
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18:08<Asteconn>Can't be doing with anything less than 80%, and I try to avoid anything less than 85%
18:08<drac_boy>eg 1700hp 140kN and take 1.7 tiles length verus 1700hp 154kN and barely fit within one tile
18:08<Asteconn>Which engine are you comparing it to?
18:09<drac_boy>and I always run anything thats between 70% to 99% straight out of the depot ... after all my trains almost always get serviced each turn anyway
18:09<drac_boy>'which engine'? between a tender and tank version of the same chassis ofc
18:10<Asteconn>Oooh right right
18:10<Asteconn>I don't have service orders on mine - I just pepper my lines with depots between stations
18:10<drac_boy>heh I don't have any orders neither actually
18:11<drac_boy>its a matter of placement of the right signals ;)
18:11<Asteconn>I tell you one engine that /is/ quite remarkable
18:11<Asteconn>The Leader
18:11<Asteconn>Especially its early release date
18:11<drac_boy>btw I know I'm being a bit crazy here but I always thought that a ukrs2 expansion (or ukrs3 either way) should include the one infamous locomotive that got axed due to politics
18:11<Asteconn>the APT?
18:12<drac_boy>you want to guess what looked like a diesel locomotive but had more chunky trucks ... and actually was a steam locomotive on the inside of the body? :P
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18:12<drac_boy>I keep forgetting the name for that one-off locomotive tho :/
18:13<drac_boy>politics didn't want 'new' steam locomotives so that was what caused its short life
18:13<Asteconn>Yes that was the Leader
18:13<drac_boy>oh right ok
18:13<Asteconn>I thought it wasn't pursued because it was rubbish? xD
18:14<drac_boy>well Asteconn I might sound crazy but there is one more conventional locomotive to think about too...
18:14<Asteconn>the GT3?
18:14<drac_boy>the uk garrats ... sure they may have not been as reliable as any other standard steamers but could be a bonus for someone who is playing ukrs on a hilly map tho
18:14<Asteconn>Ooooh righty
18:14<drac_boy>and btw sorry to stop this short but I need to afk for a while :-s
18:28<Sacro>grrr, cocking php
18:28<Sacro>why doesn't array_keys do what I explect
18:29<+glx>because it's php
18:31<Sacro>Yes, I see that
18:32<Sacro>All I want todo is use array_keys, pass in an array, but only select "CA_MSG", "CB_MSG" or "CC_MSG"
18:35-!-Zuu [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:36<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not touching php with a 30 centimeter pole
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18:40<drac_boy>back now :)
18:40<drac_boy>Asteconn still there? :)
18:44*drac_boy actually uses a bit of php at times
18:44<drac_boy>admittly just the basic parts
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18:51<drac_boy>hey Asteconn :p
18:54<drac_boy>Asteconn so what happened...bad connection?
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18:55<drac_boy>thought so
18:55<drac_boy>Asteconn so about the lner garrats..heres something slight funny I recall...
18:56<drac_boy>train with two U1's heading lickey incline ... failed or stalled for some reason ... so big bertha came to the assist ... was the only one time you had that many drive axles in a single train! :)
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19:00<drac_boy>Asteconn btw if you thought the Leader was unusual theres another one... at least one or more uk locomotive could burn onsite peat for fuel .. was so much cheaper for them ... the peat was more or less just a sidewaste as I recall
19:00<Kylie>Question: I got 1.2.2. What are the best NewGRFs for me to get?
19:01<drac_boy>Kylie what kind of networks do you generally like to run?
19:01<Supercheese>That depends on your tastes
19:01<Supercheese>Although I daresay most folk would agree that Av8 is the "best" aircraft set
19:01<Kylie>train and bus/truck drac_boy
19:01*drac_boy prefers to use russiaplanes thank you
19:01<Kylie>sometimes airplane
19:01<drac_boy> in lot of long trains or what? :p
19:02<Kylie>doesn't matter
19:02<Kylie>I like coal/passenger trins.
19:02<Asteconn>Kylie: Personally, run at least 1 new GRF for each transport type. I use UKRS2+, eGRVTS 1.0, Generic Tram Set, Modern Tram Set, FISH, and NuTracks
19:02<drac_boy>kylie hmm well its really up to you but dbsetxl for a nice mix starting in 1920 ... japanset if you like a lot of pax ... or 2cc if you pretty much want to "sample" everything around the world
19:03<Asteconn>2CC is also a good one
19:03<Asteconn>Although I don't use it myself
19:03<drac_boy>problem with 2cc is its buy list is too thick .. and you have very little option in filtering it :/
19:03<drac_boy>but ah well
19:03<Supercheese>Best thing about NewGRFs is you can use as many as you want, up to the max allowed (~64 or so)
19:03<Supercheese>So you can run, say, both Av8 and russian planes
19:03<Fremen>using 2cc/eGRVTS/av8/FISH now + some new buildings, 2cc is heavy though, thinking it's not for me :p
19:03<Supercheese>and as many other aircraft as you fancy
19:03<Kylie>Interesting re 'subway' in 2cc
19:04<drac_boy>and hmm actually I've been working on a generic world-not-so-world grf .. its still slowly coming .. but one of its main purpose is to have only a short buy list pretty much any years
19:04<drac_boy>kylie..its not really subway per se :P
19:04<drac_boy>kylie why isn't it at least partially underground? ;)
19:05<drac_boy>at least thats one good thing about Simutrans on the other hand
19:05<Supercheese>You cannot do true "subways" in OTTD
19:05<Supercheese>best you can do is either use extensive tunneling, which becomes a problem if you don't have signals in tunnels patch
19:05<Supercheese>or hack some "road vehicles" to be just dark shadows and pretend they're really subway trains ;)
19:06<Kylie>ha ha Supercheese tharts funny
19:07<Asteconn>I know that the UKRS has a 'limited list' option
19:07<Asteconn>It gives you a good selection but doesn't overload you
19:07<drac_boy>Asteconn btw did you know that the crocodile was not just in swizterland but also in germany as well? :)
19:07<Asteconn>And removes all the restrictions with the wagons
19:08<Asteconn>I did not, but that doesn't surprise me much =3
19:08<drac_boy>and then there were several more country variations of the 'smaller' ones .. aka only 2 or 3 drive axles at each end and the classical long fullwidth noses
19:09<drac_boy>some of the latter were diesel-hydraulic as well
19:09<Asteconn>Oh! Kylie :: Another good idea - Base Costs mod
19:10<Asteconn>Lets you tinker with the running costs so that you can get used to all of the new stuff without going bankrupt all the time
19:10<Kylie>ah Asteconn sounds fun :P
19:10*Asteconn noms chicken noodles
19:13<drac_boy>I actually rather use basecost to multiply the artifically-too-low prices
19:13<drac_boy>especially with airports finally costing what they really should had :P
19:15-!-jo2k [~Jonny@2001:4dd0:ff00:8cef:515b:752c:a2a1:726c] has joined #openttd
19:17<Asteconn>Well - I found it invaluable to reducing costs and running costs whilst learning wtf I was doing
19:17<drac_boy>Asteconn btw here's another one for you to think about re usa during WWII some railroads found themself short of locomotives and had to take some from another railroad .. sometimes could cause quite odd sights because the railroads were still used to personalizing their own powers whether it was from same blueprint source or not...
19:18-!-jo2k [~Jonny@2001:4dd0:ff00:8cef:515b:752c:a2a1:726c] has quit []
19:18<drac_boy>so you could eg have a mountain mallet ending up working for a short time on the flatlands till someone finally realized how much of a slowpoke it was and got the manager to reassign it somewhere else
19:19<drac_boy>many of the earlier norfolk western mallets ended up just like that .. some sold to santa fe ... too slow to keep up with any passenger trains ... moved to up ... again problem on flatland .. but moved to a different division on up and finally managed to find some decent work .. then as soon as war was over they were cut up which served things right
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19:20<drac_boy>and you have to remember that norfolk western was a mountain coal railroad ;)
19:20<Kylie>how do i move te map
19:20<Kylie>not the mawinone
19:21<Kylie>the one accessible from the map menu called 'map of the world'
19:21<Kylie>that map
19:21<drac_boy>Asteconn and there were other weird things like one IC locomotive being rebuilt to new specs but it thankfully never got beyond the one-off stage because it was too light and slippery for any reasonable service :-s
19:21<Kylie>how do i move it
19:21<Asteconn>Right click and drag =]
19:21<Asteconn>:P lol
19:21<drac_boy>had barely a co-effection of like 2.x or something
19:22<Kylie>ah woww
19:22<Asteconn>I have no idea what that means xD
19:22<drac_boy>a well balanced locomotive was 4.0 or close to it just to give you an idea
19:22<Kylie>not lotsa power plants
19:22<drac_boy>I'm not sure how this numbering system works but 4.0 apparently meant it was well balanced between hp, weight, and tractive
19:22<drac_boy>lower meant more slippery/lighter and higher meant too much tractive for the hp it ha
19:24<Asteconn>How can you have 'too much' trajctive effort? :P
19:24<drac_boy>so for example (as far as I know) it could be eg 1400hp over 3 axles at 90 tons ... but if you made it <1100hp instead then the coef number got higher ... change to 2-axle and make it lighter with the same 1400hp and the coef got lower
19:24<drac_boy>Asteconn too much = heavy chassis with 4+ drive axles but a very small boiler to match with it
19:24<Asteconn>THat just means it's slow =3
19:24<drac_boy>actually happened at times ... usually had a short life
19:24<drac_boy>Asteconn not really
19:24<Asteconn>A lot like the 0-8-0s actually
19:25<Asteconn>But they're useful /nod
19:25<drac_boy>small boiler = low pressure + large pipes/pistons = too much work for little train
19:26<Asteconn>I'll take your word for it
19:26<Asteconn>Steam traction doesn't hold any particular fascination with me
19:26<drac_boy>mind you Erie had the most worst example afaik ... a triplex locomotive (third set of drivers was under the tender btw) ... boiler of the day was like 160-210psi .. and not that big ... so yeah .. the engine was only good for 10mph pusher service for its short life
19:26<drac_boy>and 'Erie' as in the name of an old railroad
19:27<drac_boy>10mph is really slow..that told you how little steam it could make for the big six pistons :-|
19:27<drac_boy>if it had a much bigger boiler it could had done ok
19:28<drac_boy>for comparsion sake .. N&W Y6B was a huge compounding mallet .. could haul a lot of coal up the mountain route at 25mph one day then wheel fast freight elsewhere at 50mph
19:28<drac_boy>was a good design and it showed ;)
19:29<drac_boy>and for the record... when the fireman sticks his head out of the cab its barely as big as one of the sand dome on top of boiler ... it was one huge locomotive ;)
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19:29<drac_boy> here if you want know Asteconn
19:29<Pinkbeast>Grate size could also be very wrong relative to boiler size.
19:29-!-APTX_ [APTX@2001:470:1f0b:1a9d:240:63ff:fefb:5994] has joined #openttd
19:29<Kylie>(not asking a question) it's interesting how many trucks you'd actually need to transport coal and how the operating expenses would dwarf that
19:30<Asteconn>I think the coolest looking north american steam locomotive was the 2-6-6-6s
19:30<Asteconn>heh xD
19:30<drac_boy>the extra pipes over the drive axles are for the complicated piston diverting valves...
19:30<Asteconn>Which GRF are you using Kylie ?
19:30<drac_boy>so it could start with the boiler feeding all four pistons for a short time .. then as train moved it could shut off the front and assume normal boiler>low>high compounding to keep moving
19:30<drac_boy>if that made sense to you I hope
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19:31<Kylie>Asteconn: light rail/tramtracks, us town names, two from the cc seet, base costs, town replacement, etc
19:31<Pinkbeast>Some of Webb's compound 2-2-2-2s had the... useful characteristic that the reverser on the lp cylinders only kicked in when in motion, so they would sometimes sit spinning their wheels in opposite directions.
19:31<drac_boy>Pinkbeast yeah as I recall some usa steam locomotive designs started off with the boiler pipe lengths somewhat a little bit mismashed but when a second class (or complete rebuild either way) was done they corrected the ratio to get a better locomotive without doing much else
19:32<Asteconn>Ah righto
19:33<Pinkbeast>Well, the right ratio of grate / boiler / heating surface / superheater / piston size did take a while to get right. :-)
19:33<Asteconn>Kylie: Not too familar with those, but I do know that coal is always a good money maker
19:33<Asteconn>Do you 'full load any cargo' your orders?
19:33<Kylie>Asteconn: I wasn't aasking a question just now
19:34<Kylie>at all
19:34<drac_boy>eg locomotive first came with 4ft2inch boiler pipes but when rebuilt it became 3ft5inch instead with extra superheating lengths added ... was still the same chassis and boiler but had better performance
19:34<drac_boy>you know what I mean Pinkbeast? ^
19:34<Kylie>(not asking a question) it's interesting how many trucks you'd actually need to transport coal and how the operating expenses would dwarf that <<<< I wwas just saying that, not actually asking anything Asteconn
19:34<Asteconn>Fair enough ^^
19:34*Pinkbeast knows very little about US types.
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19:35<drac_boy>Pinkbeast as for the webb compound .. is that the one where it should had been a freewheel 2-4-2 but was a 2-2-2-2 instead and only a few engineers really knew how to use it?
19:35<drac_boy>I think I had seen a photo of it but let me check online to be sure
19:35<Pinkbeast>Webb built a lot of 2-2-2-2s with various compounding arrangements, all rebuilt as 2-4-2s.
19:36<Kylie>so uh Asteconn where do i adjust base costs
19:37<Pinkbeast>Some were better than others. (Particularly, the ones without bogus cutoff / reversing arrangements for the lp cylinder(s))
19:37<drac_boy>Pinkbeast hmm the photo I recall of was the kind that had a narrow boiler with the drive wheels being big that they were almost on the side rather than underneath the boiler
19:38<drac_boy>but yeah I do see some photos of other newer Webb locomotives
19:38<drac_boy>always wondered what they were thinking making 2-2-2-2's instead of 2-4-2's but who would really know? :)
19:39<Asteconn>Kylie: You do so in the GRF parameters
19:39<Pinkbeast>In the early days there were significant efficiency penalties for connecting rods.
19:39<Asteconn>It has a list of [blank to start] types and their cost modifiers
19:39<drac_boy>Pinkbeast did uk ever have them or was it only france that had these strange locomotives that were LP on one side and HP on other side for a single set of drivers?
19:40<Pinkbeast>It's why the 2-2-2 / 4-2-2s made a comeback with the invention of the steam sander.
19:40<drac_boy>I know france had quite a number of them .. called Corss-something .. I forgot the actual spelling
19:40<Pinkbeast>I am aware of no UK locomotive in that arrangement, no. How weird.
19:40<drac_boy>Pinkbeast yeah apparently they were looking to improve single locomotives without the use of mallet constructions
19:40<Kylie>I fiinished 1st coal :D
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19:40<drac_boy>not sure how well they ran .. I never found much to read about them in english :-s
19:40<Pinkbeast>Yeah, but why make them lopsided?
19:41<drac_boy>Pinkbeast you tell me I have no clue :P
19:42<Pinkbeast>The balancing problems must have been hideous.
19:42<drac_boy>Pinkbeast not so much .... some of them ran express trains so :-s
19:43<drac_boy>Pinkbeast btw how common was 3-cylinder powers anyway?
19:43<Pinkbeast>Very uncommon, here, aside from Gresley's locomotives.
19:44<drac_boy>usa only had a few examples from Alco alone .. a few in west coast (UP) and northeast coast (New Haven, etc) ... some people had thought they were more difficult to work on but couldn't complain about them being much stronger runner than a conventional 2-cylinder otherwise....
19:44<Pinkbeast>And after Webb compounds were almost unheard of apart from articulated locos.
19:44<Pinkbeast>4 cylinder was a much more common arrangement (still not compound).
19:45<drac_boy>and close to & during dieselization it turned out that 3 cylinders were better at low speed for humping works, figures
19:45<Pinkbeast>Gresley's No. 10000 "Hush-hush" is about the only late compound I can think of.
19:45<drac_boy>made sense when you think about it tho... with 2-cylinder you had one at 0 degree and other at 180 degree ... not very flexible torque chart there...
19:45<drac_boy>but with 3 cylinders .. you had less 'dead torque' tho
19:45<Pinkbeast>Errrr I think you'll find you have one at 0 and one at 90.
19:46<Pinkbeast>Otherwise it is very hard to move away if you stop at dead-centre.
19:46<drac_boy>heh sorry .. wrong number . still I mean the 3 cylinder had much closer strokes than 2
19:46<drac_boy>interestingly enough even the BR.05 was a 3-cylinder as well....but for express
19:47<Pinkbeast>Well, most of Gresley's 3-cylinders were built for express use, and Thompson mostly did't rebuild those.
19:48<drac_boy>Pinkbeast btw I can't recall where I had heard of this but someone had a very weird idea once... design a locomotive that had two small outside and one large inside piston ... apparently they were thinking 2LP>1HP compounding setup .. don't know how well that fared at all tbh
19:48<drac_boy>can imagine the valves must had been complicated
19:48<drac_boy>I think 3-cylinder is and always should be simple
19:48<Pinkbeast>I'll bet Gresley's valve gear can drive that with the right length levers.
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19:49<Pinkbeast>But after you realise you don't actually want to let people control the LP cutoff separately, it's easier.
19:50<drac_boy>Pinkbeast mm
19:50<drac_boy>Pinkbeast either way here's something a bit unusual but not too unique for you to think about...
19:51<drac_boy> I know you had some cabforwards over there but this SP one was only done to solve one simple problem: put smoke behind the cab instead for the long tunnels
19:51<drac_boy>they were all oil fired so it was easy enough said done :->
19:52<Pinkbeast>Looks familiar. We had very few (I've never understood why) apart from tender locomotives being cab-forward half the time.
19:52<drac_boy>Pinkbeast mm I don't either but for SP it makes perfect sense....smoke ahead of cab + long tunnel = choking problem
19:53<drac_boy>so..flip the locomotive itself around :)
19:53<Pinkbeast>Excuse me, I mean, tank locomotives. And after about 2 seconds I do.
19:53<Pinkbeast>If it's a coal-fired tender locomotive, where's the coal? :-)
19:53<Pinkbeast>Stupid of me.
19:54<drac_boy>could be a bit weird in certain would be thinking its one single locomotive till you look closely and notice theres only one single set of pipes between the cab and tender ... duh .. you're actually looking at two cabforwards :P
19:54<drac_boy>(aka the lack of water and oil pipes gives it away)
19:54<Pinkbeast>Gresley (for it is he) designed a very early electric for the long-tunnel problem which is in the NRM.
19:55<drac_boy>Pinkbeast mainline electrification pretty much started with B&O in usa as far as I even know... it was one tunnel underneath the city ... so they had 3rd rail locomotives that hauled trains through the tunnel ...replaced by newer steeplecabs .. before being succed by the diesels
19:56<drac_boy>but for heavy electrifications you have to give that to both PRR and New Haven .. they pretty much covered almost all of northeast usa with 11000VAC :)
19:56<Pinkbeast>The Tube here, obviously.
19:56<drac_boy>PRR = the GG1
19:57<drac_boy>and just so you know.. the GG1 was more or less designed after the chassis of a NH electric
19:57<drac_boy>Pinkbeast say .. what do you think of the few electric-diesel locomotives you had in uk so far?
19:58<Pinkbeast>As in, to run on electrified and non-electrified lines?
19:58<Pinkbeast>No thanks. We should just electrify everywhere like any sane country.
19:58<drac_boy>usa only had one single well known example .. EMD FL9 .. basically take your F7 .. give it a bit newer diesel engine .. install third rail pickup shoes and the electronics needed for that .. and of course it had a B-1A1 arrangement instead due to the extra weight of the rear steam boiler heating
19:59<Pinkbeast>There's one in UKRS somewhere.
19:59<drac_boy>a few still ran under amtrak for a while before finally being retired
19:59<drac_boy>the FL9 lasted more than 30 years due to being an unique specific-needs design ... when any other carbody diesels had long been scrapped
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19:59<drac_boy>go figure with it
20:00<Pinkbeast>Reminds me, Steam on the Metropolitan next year. And we might see Sarah Siddons, to boot.
20:00<drac_boy>Pinkbeast well electric-diesel does make sense if its only a small fleet for routes that would have problem with one or other straight power
20:00<Pinkbeast>Not if you electrify all your routes like any sensible etc etc
20:01<Pinkbeast>And rescue locomotives can be straight diesel.
20:01<drac_boy>eg electrics not having enough money-worthy route to build onto .. and diesel being banned due to emission problem .... combine both and that solves your problem
20:02<drac_boy>the FL9 actually had some sections on its original route where it had to actually shut down the diesel engine cold due to tunnel issues
20:03<Pinkbeast>I think electrification would always pay off in the long run, so I don't really believe in money-worthy.
20:04<drac_boy>and don't know if this surprises you but when amtrak took over the PRR and NH electrics .. it had two large sections that had no electrifications which explained their ongoing use of the FL9 aside to at-station locomotive swaps till they finally could get the fund to patch that
20:04<drac_boy>Pinkbeast why would ypu put in a lot of money for basically what is just a few trains a week?
20:04<Pinkbeast>I'd rather (on the routes we have a problem here) swap locomotives, although the rise of the MU has made that harder.
20:04<Pinkbeast>It's still capital vs. marginal costs.
20:05<drac_boy>well Pinkbeast if the electrification is only short distance .. just use low-voltage DC
20:05<drac_boy>there were actually some dmus that had "straight" third-rail shoes ... apparently the traction voltage was the same as the 3rd rail voltage .. so they didn't even need much of any transformer at all ... there would had been no space for one under the chassis with the diesel engine + tank taking up the space
20:06<drac_boy>I can't remember where I had seen that but they existed
20:06<Pinkbeast>That is quite clever.
20:07<drac_boy>although its moot now because if I recall Today's Railway Europe issues right .. Alstorm already is selling a MU train that has diesel+ac1+ac2 or diesel+ac1+dc
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20:07<drac_boy>did not have enough space to fit a 3-way transformer with the diesel engine tho .. still .. goes to show you
20:08<drac_boy>they did sell a non-diesel version for tri-voltage anyway
20:08<Pinkbeast>The good thing about standards is there are so many to choose from. :-)
20:08<Pinkbeast>At least we solved the gauge question here early. Wrongly, but we solved it.
20:08<drac_boy>well to be honest I don't understand the different voltages everyone use but oh well
20:09<Pinkbeast>Track gauge.
20:09<drac_boy>you mean as in it being smaller loading gauge than everyone else? :P
20:09<drac_boy>heh actually sometimes I never could understand uk ... certain locomotives being banned only because they had an extra inch of overhang on curves etc
20:09<drac_boy>oh well :->
20:10<drac_boy>at least HS1 pretty much could handle anything .. i still think about that test run where a TGV actually showed up in uk :)
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20:11<drac_boy>about DB's wish to run ICE4M or something (don't recall exact details) into uk ... I'm still waiting for any more news on that
20:11<Pinkbeast>No, track gauge. The distance between the wheels.
20:11<Pinkbeast>As I understood it we expect DB to turn up in London in a year or two (thankfully).
20:12<drac_boy>I never really understood the eurostar trains ... at least thankfully some of the chunnel regulations were or are going to be relaxed
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20:12<drac_boy>some people have wisely suggested that these "jumbo" trains are just too big for certain markets
20:12<Pinkbeast>Brunel was right about the broad gauge, but sadly his locomotive policy was otherwise mad.
20:14<drac_boy>btw that reminds me...its been quite a while since I saw the news on this but apparently JNR was working on shinkasen "covered rail carrier" wagons (for lack of words to explain it now) that would allow the usual NG consists to travel over the bullet lines if distance or so were enough to warrent the delay at both ends
20:14<drac_boy>I think it probably had to do with them wanting to enlarge one of that northern tunnel for bullet service
20:14<Pinkbeast>Freight can't stay at 90mph forever. :-)
20:15<drac_boy>Pinkbeast actually its not really that...
20:15<drac_boy>you can't mix 80km/h and 200km/h trains on a single dual-gauge track through a long tunnel .. it would cause too much scheduling problem with so few trains per hour
20:15<Pinkbeast>I think you misunderstand me.
20:16<drac_boy>so...I don't know exactly what they're doing yet but apparently one plan could be to put the NG trains aboard the bullets :->
20:16<drac_boy>oh heh ok
20:16<Pinkbeast>I don't mean "freight cannot sustain such speeds". I mean "freight, I expect, will get faster in the future from the 90mph or so it is now (here)"
20:16<drac_boy>if thats what you think ... I'm the opposite tho ... so might be better to not talk about it :P
20:17<Pinkbeast>I'm interested to know why you think that?
20:20<drac_boy>light inexpensive trains whether its actually metre gauge or not. there isn't really much need for more in an economy sense
20:20<drac_boy>it might be too long story and you wouldn't like it anyway from what you've mentioned so...don't ask? :P
20:21<Pinkbeast>I don't know what I wouldn't like, beyond that I don't like road haulage and would like rid of it; but pathing gets easier if everything's the same speed, and pax is way over 90mph even here. :-)
20:23<drac_boy>well I would rather let freight take their spider-like network all over the place ... and put passengers on their own limited hubs-biased high grade high speed line
20:23<drac_boy>I guess I sound too much like japan did in the 1960s I know :-
20:24<Pinkbeast>But what about medium-speed pax to get them everywhere else?
20:25<drac_boy>and as for road haulages .. I'll copy the switzerland and usa concepts with some tweaks ... seperateable trailer loads that can interchange between rail for fixed point-to-point and road day tractors for directly-to-door delivery
20:25<drac_boy>only a few trucks a day in the town and almost nothing on highway at all
20:25<Pinkbeast>Certainly in Switzerland we still saw random mixed goods going by in the evenings - much more going by rail there.
20:26<drac_boy>and as for medium-speed ... well if you're talking about a 90kmh distance ... that might still be covered by existing feeder tram unless you're out in the country
20:26<Pinkbeast>And in big towns, cargo trams, please. Minimise road haulage to the absolute maximum degree.
20:26<drac_boy>just saying
20:26<drac_boy>and I don't really like city cargo trams tbh
20:26<drac_boy>too much tracks for too few customers
20:27<drac_boy>plus you run into the problem of not being able to use docks
20:27<Pinkbeast>Er... I can think of another thing we could do with the tracks - pax trams!
20:27<drac_boy>cargo trams only really work for industrial parks or out in the open country anyway
20:27<Pinkbeast>Only because we allow lorry haulage to externalise costs.
20:28<drac_boy>not really
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20:28<Pinkbeast>If lorries paid the real cost of the pollution, road damage, and death they cause, cargo trams would be more attractive.
20:28<Kylie>where is the setting to change whether trains reverse at the end of the line or at a station
20:29<drac_boy>try find a single tram design that can serve ramps .. and be able to eg remove a load from dock A then put a different load at dock B .. that means you need at least 3 or 4 tracks .. instead of only just a few feet of road surface and one single tractor
20:29<Pinkbeast>Difficulty, I think, in the pre-game settings. But don't have it open.
20:29<Kylie>Pinkbeast: that was it, thx
20:29<Pinkbeast>drac: but no-one is suggesting, say, cargo movements internal to a factory would be done by tram.
20:30<drac_boy>Pinkbeast you mean like eg from building 9 to building 17 on the same large property?
20:31<Pinkbeast>I'm not totally convinced the cost of tram tracks around those buildings is so much compared to the cost of the buildings.
20:32<drac_boy>Pinkbeast well it is tbh
20:32<Pinkbeast>Not convinced. Leipzig's full of reversing loops kept around just in case, for example. They're not eating money.
20:33<drac_boy>even some of these rails-designed industrial parks in usa before ... many closed because of all the extra cost in maintenaning rails when almost everything was already paved for the forklifts and shunter tractors to run with less scheduling+labour restrictions anyway
20:33<Pinkbeast>And until road haulage pays for the costs it externalises, I don't see how we can work out what's cheaper.
20:34<drac_boy>especially when an aged emission-smelly 900hp alco locomotive was sitting next to a much smaller modern cheap 200hp tractor -_-
20:35<drac_boy>I only know of one single industrial railroad that wanted to buy into the new Green Goat locomotives so far yet
20:35<Pinkbeast>But that ain't comparing like with like (in particular, a rail vehicle obviously doesn't need 4.5x the power to do the same job; it needs less).
20:35<drac_boy>was done with some federal fund grant ... that suggests they costed a lot
20:35<drac_boy>Pinkbeast actually .. 200hp is very little
20:35<drac_boy>went to show why when the pavement already existed anyway many rails were pulled up
20:36<Pinkbeast>OK... so what? If a 200hp tractor can do a job a <200hp rail vehicle can do the same job.
20:36<drac_boy>Pinkbeast problem is no 200hp rail even exists at all
20:36<drac_boy>even if you wanted to design a new one almost noone would even buy because of all the extra costs compared to the non-rail that already existed
20:37<Pinkbeast>Stick the same engine on a chassis with railway wheels, job's done. Except really it would be electric.
20:37<drac_boy>thats why the Yard Goat is so far only going to larger railroads for urban yards
20:37<drac_boy>it doesn't work that way
20:37<drac_boy>200hp minus the emission regulations minus diesel-electric loss ... minus belt takeoff .. etc .. it comes to being rather crappy
20:38<drac_boy>its not a surprise that the few rail/road hybrid tractors have a large engine but very low top speed compared to a normal road-only tractor
20:38<Pinkbeast>No, look, rail is more efficient than road. That is the entire reason rail exists. It's a very fundamental fact that we've known since wagonways.
20:39<Pinkbeast>If you deny that you have to explain why railways ever happened.
20:39<drac_boy>Pinkbeast if that was the case then why is noone buying the rated-in-400hp-blocks modern diesel shunters for other tasks than yard and harbour works?
20:40<drac_boy>clearly says something about the lack of road-shared industrial markets
20:40<Pinkbeast>Uh, uh, one thing at a time. First you have to explain why railways were ever invented if they are not more power-efficient ways of moving cargo.
20:40<Pinkbeast>Because apparently all the owners of the horse-drawn railways never noticed they were actually using more horses after laying all the rails?
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20:43<Pinkbeast>(Obviously you don't suppose that, but let's try and get down to why you suppose 200hp on rail can't move the same load as 200hp on road, one step at a time).
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20:51<drac_boy>200hp minus small belt&clutch loss ... simple chassis (only a little more complicated if public roads gets involved).. small monthly insurance rate .. can hire almost any drivers for it. and now for rails .. 400hp minus 30+hp loss max .. hopefully FRA doesn't get too involved with its design (mainly adding more weight) .. having to retain engineers with the 8hr + min sleep laws .. and don't ask what rail insurance is
20:52<drac_boy>is it no wonder almost noone can design a modern dmu for usa partially thanks to FRA (look at how much heavier the electrics got even although they technically did not even share track with freights)
20:53<Pinkbeast>But once again you are not comparing like with like.
20:53<drac_boy>a hat off to these rebuilt budd rdc's still running around (guess fra had their limit)
20:53<Pinkbeast>In particular, you are proposing a situation where the more dangerous vehicles have a laxer regulatory regime,.
20:53<drac_boy>its not laxer
20:53<Pinkbeast>No wonder rail looks bad under those circumstances.
20:54<drac_boy>one of the few things roads have to deal with is the thing called a logbook
20:54<Pinkbeast>"can hire almost any drivers" vs. "having to retain engineers" certainly sounds laxer to me.
20:54<Pinkbeast>And the idea that one has to have double the power on rail is still absurd.
20:54<drac_boy>well if you took one city .. you'll find several thousand truck drivers .. but excluding working yards theres sometimes not much engineers
20:55<drac_boy>Pinkbeast blame fra for some of that then
20:55<Pinkbeast>The engine turns an axle. That's the same problem either way.
20:55<Pinkbeast>And one needs less power on rail to move the same cargo. That's still a basic fact you're completely ignoring.
20:55<drac_boy>then again .. a ge 44-tonner was always much heavier than a heavy haul road tractor ... even although its still a small loco
20:55<Pinkbeast>Those whatever-they-are come in 400hp increments because rail can move much larger loads with one driver.
20:56<drac_boy>Pinkbeast that doesn't help when you only have one or two container-sized loads to move at a time
20:56<Pinkbeast>No, but it doesn't establish 400hp as some sort of magical minimum size for an engine that moves a rail vehicle.
20:57<drac_boy>that was the main reason for the selling of gensets to yards ... so they could deal with different cuts
20:57<drac_boy>its not magical btw
20:57<Pinkbeast>And it's not real either.
20:58<drac_boy>subtract the drive loss .. and add the much heavier chassis
20:58<drac_boy>and there you go..thats why its hard to get smaller
20:58<Pinkbeast>What drive losses? If it can turn an axle on road it can turn one on rails.
20:58<Pinkbeast>Incidentally Leipzig's older pax trams are 230hp. Hard to go lower than 400?
20:59<drac_boy>thats only because trams at least (to fra) don't even connect with standard trains so they can get away with the much more fragile chassis
20:59<Pinkbeast>So once again you're proposing a laxer regulatory regime for more dangerous vehicles.
20:59<Pinkbeast>That has little to do with what is fundamentally more efficient.
21:01<Pinkbeast>Obviously if you have absurdly different construction requirements for rail, it looks worse. This is not news. But we started discussing how things would work in an ideal world; and in an ideal world, vehicles that can only strike another head-on when they derail, not whenever the driver dozes off, would be less crash-resistant.
21:03<Pinkbeast>And furthermore a vehicle that doesn't have to carry its own power source will come out lighter. Why else trolley-busses?
21:04<drac_boy>the funny thing is there was an article in this month's train magazine about japan rail operations and why we would never ever see it in usa. one of the few things they mentioned was the stricter labours including that point-and-call aspect
21:04<drac_boy>I guess their strict timetabling is also a bit foreign to north america too
21:05<drac_boy>although IC did have something partially similar for a while where trains were timetabled between initial and final yards
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21:06<drac_boy>btw Pinkbeast I'm not going to argue with you, trolleybuses are rather good idea that its kinda sad that many were killed off by this GE-funded 'corruption' in usa :/ at least several major cities still have them tho
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21:06<Pinkbeast>Well, you _are_ arguing with me; particularly there's a fundamental point that if x HP can move load y tons on road, it can move >y tons on rail. This is why rail works at all.
21:07<drac_boy>sometimes it was just for environment reason other times it had to do with the lack of diesel performance at the times (I recall at least one example where one city was all diesel except for one single college serving route which was right on a big hill...apparently diesels had problem there)
21:07<drac_boy>I'm not too sold on the weird underground "tuberoad" system tho. forgot what its named now
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