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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-08-29

---Logopened Wed Aug 29 00:00:51 2012
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---Logclosed Wed Aug 29 02:25:47 2012
---Logopened Wed Aug 29 02:57:12 2012
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02:57-!-Irssi: #openttd: Total of 111 nicks [7 ops, 0 halfops, 2 voices, 102 normal]
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03:21<@planetmaker>well, you then know whom to ask :-)
03:22<Supercheese>Ohp, link timed out; kinda a moot point though because as I said the company is now defunct
03:22<Supercheese>Anyway, fair use? Yes/no/we don't know but we'd rather you not?
03:25<@planetmaker>http://imagebin.org/226283 <-- that's really making *good* use of screen real estate. I wonder which web designers come up with this kind of crap
03:25<Supercheese>Heh, I'm on that page too
03:26<Supercheese>I'm considering grabbing a wikipedia request for permission boilerplate form and sending it off
03:26<Supercheese>couldn't hurt
03:28<Supercheese>the person who reads it will probably have never heard of Caesar 3, though :P
03:36<@planetmaker>but he might know whom to ask. that's the important thing
03:36<Supercheese>aye
03:42<NGC3982>Morning.
03:44<@Terkhen>good morning
03:44<Supercheese>Salve
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---Logclosed Wed Aug 29 03:57:27 2012
---Logopened Wed Aug 29 04:02:10 2012
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04:08<SpComb>LLVM-compiled OpenTTD C++ in Javascript actually runs? Oo
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04:30<SpComb>oh... it's that old? :P
04:31<SpComb>irclogs.qmsk.net tells me that 2012-07-03
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04:34<@planetmaker>jo
04:35<@planetmaker>hm, what's this increased netsplit frequency as of recently?
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04:40<@Terkhen>evil hackers
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---Logclosed Wed Aug 29 06:18:51 2012
---Logopened Wed Aug 29 07:13:40 2012
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08:02<bob>hi
08:02<NGC3982>Terrorism.
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08:03<NGC3982>Or a possible glitch in the Matrix.
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08:29<Fremen>trams are fun
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08:59<Asteconn>Trams are fun
08:59<Asteconn>With the addedbonus of not needing signals
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09:00<Fremen>and you can make them to turnarounds with 1 extra square unlike busses
09:00<Fremen>who need a trip around the block sometimes :)
09:01<Fremen>which*
09:04<Fremen>I'm just looking for better tram rails graphics
09:04<Fremen>it's ugly, too many poles
09:04<Fremen>or too big
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09:12<Elukka>i haven't yet found a a tram set that'd fit well with Long Vehicles... and i haven't found any road vehicle set i'd like better than it
09:13<Elukka>fit as in both visually and balance-wise
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09:32<@Belugas>hello
09:41<@Terkhen>hi Belugas
09:43<@Belugas>sir Terkhen :)
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11:35<@Alberth>hi hi
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11:36<@Alberth>wb sir B
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11:44<@Terkhen>hi Alberth
11:44<@Alberth>hi Terkhen
11:45<@planetmaker>hi Alberth
11:45<@Alberth>hi too :)
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11:52<@planetmaker>quak
11:53<@Alberth>quek
11:53<frosch123>moin :)
11:53<frosch123>i don't highlight on quek
11:54<frosch123>is that dutch?
11:54<@Alberth>no, it's just different from quak
11:54<NGC3982>quark.
11:55-!-Zuu [~chatzilla@109.58.147.85.bredband.tre.se] has joined #openttd
11:55<@Alberth>hi Zuu
11:56<Zuu>Hello Alberth
11:56<Zuu>and all :-)
11:56<NGC3982>Greetings.
11:56<@planetmaker>hi Zuu
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12:21<Zuu>Lovely, there is not a single open feature request for NoGo/GS on FlySpray.
12:22<@planetmaker>you want some? :D
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12:23<Zuu>planetmaker: Actually yes. It would be nice to know what potential GS writers think is missing.
12:24<Rubidium>obviously city builder implementations to rip off
12:25<Zuu>Given that I've written 5 out of 7 GS on FS, the interest to write GS (apart from me) doesn't seem so high?
12:25<@planetmaker>Zuu: I simply think - as with the admin port - even people who write GS are not necessarily willing to share their results
12:25<@planetmaker>Both, admin port and GS are server-side "features" and can be used to make the own server moar awesoooohm
12:25<Zuu>I never played the city builder so I don't know what it includes that cannot be implemented with current GS.
12:26<@planetmaker>I don't know either what "they" did
12:27<@planetmaker>Zuu: what I'd consider nice - but would require both, admin and GS, is indeed something like an exemplary citybuilder with a step-wise appraoch on the GS side:
12:29<@planetmaker>primary goal: grow city to > 50k with the limitations like "no growth beyond 1k, if no coal; no growth beyond 2.5k if no food; no growth beyond 8k if no sawmill; no growth beyond 12k, if no refinery, no growth beyond 15k, if not 5k goods
12:29<@planetmaker>or similar
12:29<@planetmaker>and the results being stored in a server-side DB, so that highscores can be gathered
12:29<@planetmaker>btw, I'm missing a NoCarGoal repo :D
12:30<Zuu>The GS part does look like it can be implemented with the 1.3 API
12:30<Zuu>Yes, NoCarGoal repo needs to be created. :-)
12:33<@Terkhen>I agree with planetmaker; we have heard of people who are keeping their work to themselves so I can only assume that many more are keeping it and not coming to the chat to talk about it
12:33<@Terkhen>the result is; no feedback and no visible results for these features
12:33<@Terkhen>which is kind of dissapointing
12:33<@planetmaker>^^
12:33<Zuu>Although you can only get the GUI "for free" if your growth cargos are specified as cargo classes rather than specific cargos.
12:34<@planetmaker>can't I specify specific cargos?
12:34<@planetmaker>by cargo label?
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12:34<Zuu>You can monitor specific cargos and use the raw town growth API.
12:34<@planetmaker>or what you mean by "for free"
12:36<Zuu>But if you use a cargo with a town effect you can use GSTown::SetCargoGoal. Then OpenTTD will include information about the goal in the town window without any additional work for the GS author.
12:37<Zuu>SetCargoGoal: http://nogo.openttd.org/api/trunk/classGSTown.html#9c1bb45326c08171fe1fd7c8e2f70ec0
12:38<Zuu>Neighbours are important use the SetCargoGoal approach.
12:39<@planetmaker>Can a GS check for the presence of a specific label?
12:39<Zuu>As in if there is a cargo with "OIL_" label?
12:40<Zuu>You could loop through GSCargoList and call GSCargo::GetCargoLabel() for each cargo and compare against the value you want to check for.
12:42<@planetmaker>yes, like that
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12:45<Zuu>planetmaker: Oh I see you have now commented the CB thread and asked for clarification on what parts they miss in GS.
12:46<@planetmaker>yes... I was evil
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12:48<@Terkhen>as usual lately :P
12:49<@planetmaker>maybe I just shouldn't post. As suggested by those whiners ;-)
12:49<Zuu>I don't think that post about CB is that evil.
12:50<@Terkhen>it isn't, I was trolling :P
12:50<@planetmaker>it's not friendly either ;-)
12:50<@Terkhen>I have seen other posts by Honza saying the same thing
12:50<@planetmaker>yeah ^^ that's why
12:50<@Terkhen>and IIRC the same question was asked
12:50<@Terkhen>I don't know if it was answered, though
12:51<@planetmaker>I don't either really. Didn't search
12:51<Zuu>At least the answer was not added to FS in the script category.
12:51<@planetmaker>nope
12:52<@Terkhen>let's hope for a constructive debate, I could use one after that change newgrfs thread :)
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12:54<Zuu>Yeah, lets hope :-)
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13:24<Zuu>If GS get to control the company performance, it may be an idea that it can register sub performance items that show up in the details window.
13:25<Zuu>Maybe even it should be made so that OpenTTD compute the total based on the sub items rather than exposing the control over the total to GS.
13:26<@Yexo>so GS would provide a list of items where you can score points (incl. max number of points) and the number of points for each company, openttd computes total and makes a nice display?
13:27<Zuu>Yes that is my idea
13:27<Zuu>If a GS provide a such list, that would replace the default performance table and the GS would take over control over the company league table.
13:28<@Yexo>sounds like a good alternative to the current goal list
13:29<Zuu>My guess is that the items need to be saved into the save game format.
13:29<NGC3982>Did something happend to my client?
13:30<Zuu>Although the current goal list doesn't provide a way to show the status of other companies in a MP game or hooking into the performance graph.
13:32<Zuu>I don't really think the goal list and the league table exactly duplicate each other, but they will tangent each other if GS get to control the league table.
13:32<Zuu>The legue table is not really good for displaying lengthy goal texts.
13:33<Zuu> s/legue table/detailed performance rating/
13:33<@Alberth>allow for scores in the goal window?
13:34<@Alberth>ie currently it is 'not reached', allow an percentage instead
13:35<@Alberth>perhaps replacing the detailed performance rating window???
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13:36<Zuu>An alternative approach is of course to try to extend the goal window and leave the performance windows as is.
13:37<@Alberth>I like the idea of treating the current contents as a sort of default goal
13:37<Zuu>A nice thing with the performance window is that it got a clear button in the main toolbar while goals are well hidden.
13:37<@Alberth>(current contents of the performance window)
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13:43<Zuu>Taking NoCarGoal as an example, I think I would set the detail performance items there to cargo delivery of the three cargos.
13:43<Zuu>Eg 300 for each cargo and 100 for having a HQ or something else silly :-)
13:45<Zuu>Then the goal window would be the point where each player find information about the global goals and company specific goals. The (detailed) performance window would be the place to check out the progress for all companies.
13:45<Zuu>Instead of needing to make the GS spam progress news.
13:46-!-Guest4888 is now known as Fawksie
13:46<Zuu>Not sure if GSs should be allowed to configure different progress items for different companies.
13:47<Zuu>Maybe it is not really correct to use the detailed performance window for this. Maybe it is better to extend the goal window instead to provide this information.
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14:00<@Yexo>maybe the goal window should get buttons to select all companies so you can view other companies' goals
14:01<@Alberth>hidden goals can be fun ;)
14:03<Zuu>I'm thinking that we maybe should add so that when a goal is completed you can mark it completed rather than erasing it.
14:04<Zuu>Then we can register a goal_id as a requirement for a town to grow (at all or past XYZ inhabitants)
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14:05<@Alberth>sort of with the active subsidies. Makes sense
14:05<Zuu>The Town GUI can then display blocking goals and town growth can be held back without requiring the GS to make raw changes of town growth which is only half-way supported.
14:06<andythenorth>I didn't play much with it, but town growth hasn't really convinced me for GS :)
14:06*Zuu thinks about creating a wiki article to add ideas too.
14:06<andythenorth>Zuu: pub / sub (event subscriber) system?
14:06<andythenorth>GS publishes goal status :P
14:07<andythenorth>GS can register subscribers on towns
14:07<andythenorth>maybe industries :P
14:07<andythenorth>probably overkill
14:07*andythenorth suggests pub-sub for everything recently
14:07*Zuu is lost with the pub-sub idea
14:08<andythenorth>probably stupid
14:08<andythenorth>ignore it
14:08*Alberth subs to andy
14:10<@Alberth>Zuu: pub-sub means that events are sent to subcribed parties only. If you want to know about something, you have to subscribe
14:12*andythenorth has some random thoughts again, I'll dump here, you can ignore :P
14:12<andythenorth>- we know GS is good for goal-driven stuff like cargo goal
14:12<andythenorth>- we know GS is bad for detailed control of town / newgrf etc
14:13<andythenorth>we've tested the first now, and the second is true by design (currently anyway, and nobody dares change it)
14:13*Alberth nods
14:13<andythenorth>I think some middle layer is missing - economy
14:13<andythenorth>town control, industry control, cargo availability, cargo payment rates, and possibly base costs
14:13<andythenorth>no idea how to do it
14:13<@Alberth>I'd count it in with GS
14:14<andythenorth>but there's probably no way around getting GS authors and newgrf authors to agree on common interface
14:14<andythenorth>we had to do it with cargos, and it has actually worked
14:14<andythenorth>despite pain, cargo classes and labels work brilliantly
14:14<andythenorth>it's a bit like IEEE standards or W3C, it's incredibly painful, but ultimately the standards are agreed and work
14:14<@Alberth>I am not sure whether GS and newgrf should interface directly
14:15<@Alberth>although it may be simpler when they do
14:15<andythenorth>either they do it by values in registers
14:15<andythenorth>or by cbs via openttd which GS can call and newgrf can handle
14:15<andythenorth>or by some published list of GS goal classes, current status etc
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14:16<@Alberth>hi Wolf01
14:16<Wolf01>hi
14:17<andythenorth>I don't have an answer, obviously :P
14:17<@Alberth>I sort of see GS as a layer above openttd
14:18<@Alberth>newgrf has knobs controlled by openttd
14:18<@Alberth>openttd has knobs controlled by GS
14:18<@Alberth>except the number of openttd knobs is about 0 :)
14:18<@Alberth>currently
14:19<andythenorth>+1
14:19<andythenorth>stack diagram :P
14:19<@Alberth>that way, GS can continue to think at high level, and let openttd do the work
14:21<@Alberth>for industry I can imagine a GS saying 'more production of X' or 'less industries'
14:21<@Alberth>although it may collide with the newgrf ideas :(
14:22<@Alberth>but eg for default industries it would work, I think
14:23<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3204/GS-OpenTTD-NewGRF.png
14:24<andythenorth>cb29 / 35 should be able to either hint to newgrf (meh), or just be over-ridden by GS
14:24<andythenorth>(production change)
14:25<andythenorth>newgrfs should be able to provide ideas for industries GS doesn't care about
14:25<andythenorth>but GS should be able to over-ride where necessary
14:25<andythenorth>maybe
14:25<Zuu>I've created https://secure.openttd.org/wiki/GS_Ideas
14:25*andythenorth considers FIRS 2 :P
14:26*andythenorth tries to figure wtf industries would need for a common interface
14:26<andythenorth>industry open / close is a NoConomy thing and should be fixed even without GS
14:26<Zuu>andythenorth: Agreed regarding production change.
14:26<andythenorth>then expose it to GS for control
14:27<andythenorth>default game should be better than current for industries
14:27<andythenorth>without any need to load a GS
14:27<andythenorth>GS will be better if simple like NoCarGoal
14:27<andythenorth>big complicated things are a headache
14:27<andythenorth>I can forsee an interface designed for someone to code a GS featuring 'entire history of world for train fans'
14:28<andythenorth>which will just be a source of breakage and whining for years
14:28<andythenorth>just say no to that :P
14:29<andythenorth>semantics, but are they Game Scripts or Goal Scripts?
14:30<@Alberth>'game'
14:30<Zuu>A GS can do other things than providing just goals.
14:30<andythenorth>do we care? is it interesting?
14:31<andythenorth>e.g. is the GS for the tutorial just a nice hack?
14:31<Zuu>For example implementing the beginner tutorial
14:31<andythenorth>or is that what GS is intended for?
14:31<@Alberth>but western people desperately need goals to achieve ;)
14:31<Zuu>I think TB had it in mind.
14:31<andythenorth>I am very goal driven
14:31<andythenorth>I tried not being :P
14:31<andythenorth>boring
14:32<andythenorth>they're actually objectives, but nvm http://www.diffen.com/difference/Goal_vs_Objective
14:32<Rubidium>but isn't the goal to make objectives?
14:32<andythenorth>ha
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14:32<Rubidium>and working on that goal should be fun, and what's more fun than a game?
14:33<andythenorth>making a game :)
14:33<andythenorth>ok so semantics are boring as usual :P
14:35*andythenorth looks for a thread to troll instead
14:35<Rubidium>maybe you can troll the sysadmin at work
14:35<Rubidium>or maybe I should tomorrow
14:36<andythenorth>don't poke the bofh
14:36<Rubidium>... by making a ticket that Outlook's agenda doesn't work
14:36<andythenorth>wtf is this pipes thread?
14:36<Rubidium>andythenorth: at the moment I can be a real bastard from hell for the sysadmin
14:37<andythenorth>he
14:37<andythenorth>what if he makes you do the sysadmin instead? :P
14:37<andythenorth>then you lose
14:38<Rubidium>I'd reckon I'm way too expensive for that position
14:39<SpComb>tsk
14:39<andythenorth>ooops
14:39<andythenorth>went in the suggestions forum
14:39<SpComb>sysadmins are highly trained professionals that have many years of experience!
14:39<Rubidium>... in avoiding contact with anyone via any means
14:40<Rubidium>which includes the sales rep of vmware for buying the ESXI license, or the sales rep of whatever stuff you need to make backups
14:41<andythenorth>sysadmins buy stuff? :o
14:41<Rubidium>apparantly not
14:41<SpComb>sysadmins do a lot of integration and maintenance work on complex systems which require a wide area of understanding and lots of forethought!
14:42<SpComb>developers just play in their own sandbox and don't have to care about anything outside of their own project :<
14:42<Rubidium>... so they leave it to the programmer to choose the hardware and software for the database server
14:43<andythenorth>https://twitter.com/DEVOPS_BORAT/status/235161966480588800
14:44<SpComb>yes, listen to that devops guy
14:44*andythenorth refuses to hire a sysadmin mostly
14:45<andythenorth>can't find anything to validly troll
14:45<Rubidium>SpComb: anyway, by what you have said I must classify the person the is supposed to be the sysadmin at my work to be not a sysadmin
14:45<andythenorth>lots of stupidity, but nothing more stupid than me on an average day :(
14:46<andythenorth>one day it would be fun to list all the made up reasons towns grow
14:46<Rubidium>as integration and maintenance are not in his vocabulary
14:49<Rubidium>on the other hand, he must be doing lots of forethought. Like a week ago he asked me whether I had time for some meeting with him (we're moving building and he doesn't know anything about basically anything concerning databases), and he wanted it that week. So I said, send me a meeting request for a moment you have time. I'm still waiting for that
14:50<Rubidium>so he is still pondering it
14:50<Rubidium>he is probably also pondering for two months whether something is finished or not (two months ago it was almost finished), and it's merely an installation of Windows
14:53<@Alberth>busy all day with emergencies?
14:55<Rubidium>I doubt it
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14:57<andythenorth>^ this
14:57<andythenorth>is why I can't work for other people
14:57<andythenorth>and had to become the man
14:57<andythenorth>and have people working for the man
14:57*andythenorth is a capitalist exploiter
14:57<NGC3982>..
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14:58<Rubidium>Alberth: or his concept of emergency is skewed
15:00<Rubidium>but I reckon a disk screaming through it's SMART that it is broken (with random database corruptions) is something that has quite some urgency
15:00<Rubidium>s/'//
15:02<Rubidium>similarly I'd reckon fixing/making a regular backup of the database server that contains a significant amount of the core business data is somewhat urgent as well
15:02<NGC3982>Ah.
15:02<Rubidium>but then I might be a really bad sysadmin
15:03<NGC3982>Yes, the bewildered nature of hard drive ambient noise.
15:03<Rubidium>if I were to be one
15:03<andythenorth>I would be very bored if I was a sysadmin
15:03<andythenorth>I hate computers :)
15:03<NGC3982>I noticed an old server SCSI-drive at work made an almost perfect A-tone while browsing in thumbnails.
15:03<andythenorth>bah
15:03<andythenorth>I've got a zombie varnish instance running
15:04<andythenorth>how do I ps to find the fucker?
15:04<Rubidium>ps|grep varnish?
15:04<NGC3982>T'was like bosoms covered in roses and chocolate.
15:05<andythenorth>apparently no varnish process
15:05<andythenorth>yet it's serving me errors quite happil
15:05<Rubidium>netstat -lpn|grep <port>
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15:07<andythenorth>no netstat :(
15:07*andythenorth googles
15:07<Rubidium>what?
15:08<Rubidium>no netstat? What kind OS is that?
15:08<Rubidium>or maybe they removed it from Mac OS X because it has no fancy user interface
15:08<andythenorth>not in macports either :(
15:09<andythenorth>found it with ps ax | grep varnish
15:09<SpComb>ps auxf
15:09<Rubidium>under Network Utility there's a Netstat tab (or so wikipedia says)
15:09<SpComb>every sysadmin has their own ps-incantation that they use
15:09<SpComb>for me, it's `ps aux`
15:09<andythenorth>oh yeah there's a GUI netstat
15:10*andythenorth tries to avoid the GUI
15:10<andythenorth>the gui is for Twitter and email
15:10<@Alberth>at a mac? good luck :)
15:10<SpComb>cat /proc/net/tcp
15:10<andythenorth>Alberth: most stuff is in terminal as god intended
15:10<andythenorth>except drawing and crap like that
15:11<andythenorth>it has a crappy port manager too
15:11<andythenorth>but I didn't pay for that I guess :P
15:18<frosch123>night
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15:35<@Belugas>i am sooooo bored.... log analysis and update deployment... I should not get near forums!
15:36<Asteconn>:P
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15:39<andythenorth>Belugas: nothing there anyway
15:39*andythenorth has broken CK Editor
15:39<andythenorth>which is bad
15:39<andythenorth>time for pub
15:41<@Belugas>pub? or tub?
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15:42<andythenorth>pub
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15:51<Asteconn>Is ther eany quick wa
15:51<Asteconn>dern it
15:51<Asteconn>Is there any quick way to change all of my vehicles service intervals from 150% to 15% at once?
15:54<NGC3982>I would like to know that too.
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16:53<Asteconn>God damn this is taking forever ;____;
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17:33<@Terkhen>good night
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17:38<Asteconn>Finally done
17:38<Asteconn>265 trains D:
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17:48<Wolf01>'night
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17:55<NGC3982>What was the name of that truck GRF with lots of big trucks and heavy stuff?
17:55<NGC3982>Ah, HEQS
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---Logclosed Thu Aug 30 00:00:52 2012