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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-08-30

---Logopened Thu Aug 30 00:00:53 2012
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03:07<Eddi|zuHause>oh, that is equally as stupid as "ohne Gewähr" - "*peng*"
03:14<@Terkhen>good morning
03:22<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: What does that mean?
03:23<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: it's one of the rare cases of an actual "pun" in the german language (as in two words sounding similar, with completely different meaning)
03:23<@planetmaker>It's a pun
03:24<Supercheese>Puns are rare in German?
03:24<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: Ah, i see.
03:24<NGC3982>For what?
03:24<Eddi|zuHause>rarer than in english, at least
03:24<@planetmaker>what makes you think so? I disagree
03:24<Eddi|zuHause>rare enough that there's no german word for "pun"
03:25<Eddi|zuHause>that is (imho) a little broader term
03:27<Eddi|zuHause>what i meant was: english has a MUCH larger vocabulary, combined with shorter words, making puns possible way more often. you notice this a lot if you compare american TV shows with their german synchronization
03:28<Eddi|zuHause>don't even need to be "pure" comedy shows
03:28<NGC3982>Ah, yes. The german dubbing.
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03:50<__ln__>i guess i cannot use a lufthansa self-service kiosk for a sas flight, they've covered up other airline logos with a paper sheet
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03:54<dihedral>somehow i'd still give it a shot :-P
03:58<@planetmaker>*pang*. We're back to bad puns :-P
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03:59*__ln__ waiting for SK536 dublin-stockholm
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04:07<Kellis>Hey! :) I have some problems with portable version, when I run it, it asks to download a set of graphics, but when I click "yes, download" nothing happens. Can I download it alone somewhere?
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04:15<dihedral>planetmaker, bad puns are the best :-P
04:15<Supercheese>The better the worse, and vice versa!
04:15<@Terkhen>Kellis: what do you mean with a portable version?
04:16<Kellis>the one that in zip
04:16<Kellis>or it is not portable?
04:16<dihedral>someone asked me how many points were on my drivers license - i answered 'a single point of failure' :-P
04:17<Kellis>The problem is that on the current computer, I can not install the software, so I would like to use the portable version
04:18<__ln__>the what?
04:19<@Terkhen>it is not portable per se, but you can easily make it portable by creating an empty text file called openttd.cfg in (IIRC) the root folder of the unzipped file
04:19<@planetmaker>I think he means
04:20<@planetmaker>but that's basically just doing what terkhen just said: create a cfg next to your binary or exe, put a graphics base set in the baseset folder and you're done
04:20<Kellis>i mean this
04:21<@Terkhen>and, if you want to download the graphics, IIRC the download locations are at the readme
04:21<@Terkhen>or just google for opengfx
04:21<@planetmaker> :D
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04:21<@Terkhen>but the automated download should work after you create the openttd.cfg file
04:22<@planetmaker>I keep forgetting that :-)
04:22<@Terkhen>it should work also for normal versions, except if you have some strange permissions setup
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04:22<Supercheese>Good night golks
04:22<Kellis>Thank you, I`ll try this
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04:23<@Terkhen>you are welcome
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---Logclosed Thu Aug 30 04:53:40 2012
---Logopened Thu Aug 30 05:45:22 2012
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05:45-!-Irssi: #openttd: Total of 109 nicks [7 ops, 0 halfops, 1 voices, 101 normal]
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09:55<NGC3982>Is there any way to make sure all train-sets (used on rail, electric rails and monolev) i add can be put together?
09:56<NGC3982>For instance, Dutch trainset wagons on NUTS engines, and so on.
10:02<@planetmaker>there's no way to make sure. It's in the hand of the NewGRF authors. Bug them, if it fails
10:02<@planetmaker>You need to bug the author of who wrote the engine of that train
10:04<@planetmaker>"I wrote da greatest trainz newgrf there is. Thou shall not use others besides it"
10:04<@planetmaker>(paraphrasing possible answers to such request :D )
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10:33<NGC3982>Understand me properly, it's not like i actually expected it.
10:34<NGC3982>But you guys often seem to suprise me with "Yeah, that's actually in the settings" kind-o'-stuff.
10:35<@planetmaker>might be. In the individual NewGRF's parameters. Who knows :-)
10:35*NGC3982 puts that down as 'magic'.
10:51<@Terkhen>only the author can decide
10:53<NGC3982>..Read in a James Earl Jones voice.
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11:13<__ln__>hello from arlanda
11:23<NGC3982>__ln__: Oh? :)
11:23<NGC3982>Worlds crappiest airport.
11:27<__ln__>how so? maybe not the best, but...
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11:35<__ln__>i'll go see if they sell ice cream here
12:04<NGC3982>As said.
12:19<@planetmaker>man... installing a windows till it finally has all needed stuff is... a big PITA
12:21<@planetmaker>but 24" screen is nice for a change of my 13" laptop :D
12:23<+glx>planetmaker: the install of windows itself is usually fast now, then it needs all the updates :)
12:24<@planetmaker>well. It took me now like 90 minutes from unpacking to get a basic system. That is ok, I guess... but nothing updated. And I had to get the graphics driver off the net etc...
12:24<@planetmaker>I'll test the same with debian later to have a good comparison
12:49<frosch123>what? pm getting a proper computer?
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13:05<frosch123>hi zuu :)
13:06<@planetmaker>hi zuu, frosch123 :-)
13:06<Zuu_>hello frosch123 and planetmaker
13:06<@planetmaker>frosch123: yes, got myself a proper one :-)
13:06<frosch123>hm, what to do... is there some nocargoal game planned for today? or do i have to code something for ottd?
13:06<Zuu_>So now the OSX bugs are even more unlikely to get fixed? :-p
13:07<@planetmaker>especially with sufficient screen real estate :D
13:07*Yexo is up for a game tonight :)
13:07<@planetmaker>Zuu_: not sure. I'll continue to use my laptop. But for some things a real desktop just is nicer
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13:08*Zuu_ might join in later tonight (CET 21+)
13:08<@planetmaker>I guess I'm busy setting up this machine :D
13:08<@planetmaker>or rather not "this" but "the other"
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13:09<Eddi|zuHause>i don't get this. are these things always written in incoherent gibberish? (disclaimer: i do not condone the content of this link)
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13:11<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: apparently someone did not know about unicode braille characters
13:11<Eddi|zuHause>that's not what i meant :p
13:11<Eddi|zuHause>(yes i know your signature :p)
13:12<frosch123>but that was the more interesting part
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13:26*Zuu_ wonders what to do. Another GS? :-p
13:27<frosch123>you just canceled 90 minutes? :p
13:28<frosch123>half an hour ago, you said you would join around 21 cets
13:30<frosch123>meanwhile i rejected a patch :)
13:31<Zuu_>So how is writing a GS canceling 90 minutes?
13:31<frosch123>i expected you would want to write one :)
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13:31<frosch123>s/write/play/ obviously :s
13:33<Zuu_>I'm on yet another train and before I get home I will neither have good enough internet to play or a C++ compiler.
13:33<Zuu_>But I do got a nightly of OpenTTD and the source code for reading. :-)
13:35<frosch123>ah, nocargoal in fact displays the news every 30 days
13:36<Zuu_>But maybe reading patches at FS is a nice task :-)
13:36<frosch123>it confused me the last time that it showed up on so random days, instead of always the 1st
13:36<Zuu_>In version 3 there is a setting to display years every month or every year (january)
13:37<Zuu_>The main loop use a frequency of 30 days or so, so it will skew over time.
13:38<@Terkhen>WRT the "trams can become stuck" issue, I'm wondering if not building the first and last roadbits of a long build selection unless the user is specifically trying to build only that roadbit is a good workaround or not
13:38<Zuu_>Before publishing v3 I considered to make the looping not skew, but decided to leave it as is for now.
13:39<@Terkhen>of course, it would take into account stuff such as "next tile has a depot/tram stop"
13:39<Zuu_>Terkhen: That sounds like a good idea at a first glance
13:39<@Terkhen>I also wonder if such change would break AIs relying on the existing behaviour for whatever reason
13:40<Eddi|zuHause> <-- can't this be closed? as in the zoom-out has been included, and the zoom-in rejected?
13:40<frosch123>Terkhen: yeah, sounds interesting. i always have to remove bits it placed too much
13:40<Zuu_>Terkhen: Don't change the AI building behaviour
13:40<Zuu_>AI building behaviour is already different from human.
13:41<frosch123>Zuu_: i think he wants to change the human behaviour to match the one of ais :)
13:41<@Terkhen>oh, true... I was rembering that I changed behaviour for AIs in some command, it seems that it was precisely this one :P
13:41<@Terkhen>yes, it was the "build roads up to obstacles" feature
13:41<Zuu_>AI construction fail altogether if any piece fails. Human construction will build up to the obstacle.
13:41<@Terkhen>but for AIs it is ^
13:42<Eddi|zuHause>IMHO trams should just be able to turn on "dead ends"... way fewer problems
13:42<Zuu_>That is a lot better for AIs if it is an atomic action that either succeed or fails.
13:43<Zuu_>Maybe the PF penalty for turning around on "dead ends" could be high for trams to discourage it, but still allow it.
13:44<frosch123>Zuu_: ah, i figured out why the endgame screen only shows sometimes
13:44<@Yexo>Zuu_: I'd exclude it from the pf completely
13:44<@Yexo>just "if stuck in dead end, turn around"
13:44<frosch123>goalquestions are not allowed in pause mode for the most restrictive pause setting
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24502 /trunk/src/lang/vietnamese.txt:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: vietnamese - 1 changes by nglekhoi
13:45<@Yexo>so that's why it worked the second time: I created a map with "build-on-pause" enabled
13:45<frosch123>i think it should not be like that
13:45<frosch123>Yexo: yes, the map i created also had some build on pause :)
13:46<Eddi|zuHause>the restrictive behaviour quickly annoyed me, so i now always play with build-while-paused
13:46<Zuu_>That is why I never hit the problem when testing locally then.
13:46<@Yexo>too many settings
13:47<NGC3982>A nice visit from the Cassini probe. :)
13:47<frosch123>all of create subsidy, create goal, ... are rated together with stuff like rename town/waypoint, and are forbidden in the most restrictive pause setting
13:48<frosch123>should we change the category of some of these, or should the gs change the pause setting to give permission itself?
13:48<Zuu_>Hmm, but even if we "fix" it so that questions are allowed in pause mode, GSs need to be written such that if they execute any DoCommands it need to keep in mind if they work with respect to if the game is paused and the build-on-pause setting.
13:49<Zuu_>For AIs this is a non-issue as AIs don't execute when the game is paused. GSs on the other hand keep running when the game is paused.
13:49<frosch123>well, allowing all deity stuff in pause mode is likely not useful either :)
13:49<@Yexo>we could also allow any command as long as it comes from a gS
13:49<frosch123>Yexo: so gscompanymode stuff is still forbidden
13:50<frosch123>i wonder whether the gs actually gets an error message
13:50<@Yexo>ah, true
13:50<frosch123>or whether it is just dropped somewhere :p
13:50<Zuu_>This means that an GS may get trapped into interesting problems if the player hit pause at the wrong moment.
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>"modern conservative" ... is that an oxymoron?
13:51<frosch123>otoh, iirc all the pause stuff is only handled on the server, so we might also be able to allow gs to do companymode stuff in pause mode
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13:52<frosch123>but, gs behaviour for manual paused games is questionable anyway
13:52<Eddi|zuHause>why not simply pause the GS if it runs a command, until that command can be executed?
13:52<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: gs can pause/unpause the game themself
13:52<frosch123>so you have a nice deadlock there :)
13:52<@Yexo>that would break all possible communication between GS/admin port/user
13:53<frosch123>i guess the easiest solution is to blame the gs, and make them set the pause setting themself
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>can GS override manual pause, pause on no players, etc.?
13:53<Zuu_>additionally we need to pause the GS before it executes a command, as pausing it during a call back to OpenTTD is not supported.
13:54<Zuu_>Eddi|zuHause: A GS can pause/unpause the game. I don't know if it can change those settings.
13:54<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: no, it has a separate pause mode
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>alternatively, you could treat commands as asynchronous calls, i.e. they return before the command is run, and check the result at a later time
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: so the GS can pause the game, but not forcefully unpause it
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>since any pause condition will pause the game
13:55<frosch123>i would think so, but no idea :)
13:58<@Terkhen>hi Chris_Booth
13:58<Eddi|zuHause>so 3 possible routes: 1) running commands during pause throws an error. 2) running command blocks GS until command is executed. 3) commands are asynchronous and GS must periodically read whether it was executed
13:58<Eddi|zuHause>each has different drawbacks
13:58<Zuu_>So a quick fix for NoCarGoal is to spawn all end game dialogs before pausing the game. But it might also be worth to consider if some GS commands should be allowed even when build-on-pause is disabled.
13:59<frosch123>hmm, it might actually look like that the gs never gets a result to the command, so it is suspended forever...
13:59<Zuu_>In that case you would get the dialogs if you manually unpause the game.
14:00<Zuu_>Unless the GS get stuck forever even after its unpaused.
14:01<frosch123>let's test whether this is actually the case
14:01<Eddi|zuHause>you can't manually unpause when the GS paused
14:01<Eddi|zuHause>assuming the above behaviour
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14:02<@Yexo>I think you can manually override the GS pause, but not the other way around
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14:03<@Terkhen>hi Wolf01 and Alberth
14:03<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds inconsistent
14:04<@Alberth>hi Wolf01. Terkhen, and consistent Eddi|zuHause
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>better than incontinent... :p
14:05<@Alberth>definitely :)
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14:07<frosch123>ok, in singleplayer gs circumvents the whole pause check :)
14:08<frosch123>it may do anything, even in gscompanymode :)
14:08<frosch123>and a human cannot overrule the gs pause
14:09<frosch123>damn, and there is no fast forward in multiplayer :(
14:10<frosch123>@calc 365 * 74 * 0.03 / 60
14:10<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 13.505
14:10<frosch123>probably not worth searching the code piece to enable ff in multiplayer :)
14:11<frosch123>anyway, if the gs pauses the game while everything is allowed in pause mode is not useful anyway, to a gs which uses pause might generally want to check the build in pause setting
14:12<Zuu_>frosch123: in SP, when I click on the close button of the blue box, it closes but I also get a red box saying that the action is not permitted in pause mode.
14:12<frosch123>Zuu_: ah, yeah you may not answer it :p
14:12<Zuu_>And I'm unable to unpause the game from the main toolbar.
14:12<frosch123>gs can execute anything in singleplayer, since the pause check is gui only
14:13<frosch123>in multiplayer however there is a separate check
14:13<Zuu_>frosch123: But its a bit inconsistent that you are not allowed to answer it but still it closes.
14:13<frosch123>well, we should add the pause check also the script command execution stuff, so it behaves consitent in single and multiplayer
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14:14<Zuu_>frosch123: You could also hack the NoCarGoal GS to call MainClass::EndGame eg. in the main loop.
14:15<Zuu_>(using this->EndGame(); )
14:15<frosch123>also true, but i am already in june :)
14:15<frosch123>i already hacked it to add some debug output
14:17<Zuu_>do you see if the GS continues to run after the game get stuck in pause mode?
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14:18<frosch123>i will see it :)
14:18<frosch123>in singleplayer it works, since pause effectively does not exist for gs
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14:23<frosch123>and indeed, the gs is deadlocked
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14:23<frosch123>it executed the pause command, returns successfully
14:23<frosch123>then it triggers the question window for the first company
14:24<frosch123>the server loop drops the command because of pause mode, and the gs is suspended forever :p
14:24<frosch123>and noone is able to unpause the game :p
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14:30<@planetmaker>he... debian CD1 comes with an installer which runs on windows
14:31<@Terkhen>planetmaker: windows people are scared of big changes :P
14:31<@Terkhen>IIRC ubuntu had a thingie which allowed you to install ubuntu in the windows partition
14:31<@Terkhen>scary, my code compiled in the first try
14:32<@Terkhen>something must be seriously wrong
14:32<frosch123>you are not doing a netinst?
14:32<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: why then is the UI changed completely in every new version of windows?
14:33<@Terkhen>that's only completely true for windows 8, the other changes have not been that big
14:33<@Terkhen>windows 7 feels like xp with some adjustments thrown into the mix
14:35<frosch123> <- makes sense?
14:35<NGC3982>Terkhen: Some good ones.
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14:43<Zuu_>Does the coding style permit assignment in an if statement?
14:43<Zuu_>I can't find any rule that forbid it, but would personally not write such code even if it is valid C++ code.
14:44<Zuu_>So its correct to complain about an assignment in an if statement (reading a patch at FS)
14:46<frosch123>if it is used excessive, yes
14:46<frosch123>if coding style is only broken in single spots, i would fix them myself before comitting
14:46<frosch123>it feels so weird to request a new diff to fix one line :)
14:47<Rubidium>station_cmd.cpp:3170 ;)
14:49<Rubidium>Terkhen: is people being scared of big changes the reason there is an odbcad32.exe for 64 bits ODBC links and one named exactly the same of 32 bits ODBC links?
14:49<Rubidium>yes... you can't make ODBC links that work for both 32 and 64 bits applications
14:50<@Terkhen>I'm talking about average users... that sounds like serious shortsightedness :P
14:54<Rubidium>well, I'm a less than average user ;)
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15:11<Rubidium>oh... forum updates!?!? ;)
15:12<frosch123>only software? or also quality of content? :p
15:13<frosch123>oh, you said "update", i thought "upgrade" :(
15:13<Rubidium>it's not Smith
15:17<Rubidium>the second Matrix movie, quite in the begin just after the big meeting where Neo opens the door "for" agent Smith
15:18<frosch123>you want me to admit that i saw the second part? :o
15:19<frosch123> <- last row
15:20<Rubidium>that's definitely true
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>i just wanted to say: "what second part?" :p
15:21<NGC3982>The Matrix.
15:21<NGC3982>Oh yes, The Matrix.
15:22<NGC3982>And the Animatrix - Not to forget!
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>i didn't quite get the animatrix... they were shown on TV once.
15:24<NGC3982>I love it.
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15:25<@peter1138>don't know if i've seen 2 or 3
15:26<@peter1138>hmm bits of 2
15:28<NGC3982>Wait what?
15:28<NGC3982>Seeing the Animatrix in sessions is useless.
15:30<NGC3982>As far as i see it, it's a single movie - and it's awesome.
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15:31<frosch123> <- that's wrong, isn't it?
15:32<frosch123>it should have been rotated 90° in the other direction
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15:34<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: no, the sign is in the "wrong" place, so it makes a "double wrong"
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15:35<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: a rotation matrix is [[c,-s][s,c]]
15:35<frosch123>ah, indeed
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15:51*NGC3982 just noticed he could make turn-abouts in OpenTTD.
15:59<Zuu>NGC3982: You mean roundabouts?
15:59*NGC3982 stands corrected.
16:01<Zuu>I wrote my master theisis about capacity calculation of small roundabouts
16:02<Rubidium>making a turnabout shouldn't be hard in OpenTTD, though it'd fit better in OpenRCT
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16:04<@Alberth>NGC3982: the problem is to make them free of deadlock
16:05<Rubidium>a bit of quantum effects and they're by definition deadlock free
16:05<Zuu>Free of deadlock is easy. The hard part is to increase throughbut but still keep it deadlock free.
16:05<@Alberth>openttd has quantum effects? :o
16:06<NGC3982>Alberth: I see.
16:06<Rubidium>after a while road vehicles will run through eachother to prevent deadlocks
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>it's horribly inefficient for long queues though
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>because it'll only do 2-3 at a time
16:06<@Alberth>NGC3982: the trivial solution is to have one train at the round-about at a time, but that's no fun :p
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>so a drive-through-roadstop with a full load vehicle can grind entire towns to a halt
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>especially in AI games
16:11<NGC3982>Alberth: Oh, i was actually only thinking about cars.
16:12<@Alberth>then quantum bits will work :)
16:12<@Alberth>good night all
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16:30<Hyronymus>time for bed
16:30<Hyronymus>important day tomorrow
16:30<Hyronymus>bye bye
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16:32<TheDude>hello there
16:33<@Terkhen>hi TheDude
16:33<TheDude>could anyone give an advice please on how to enable blitter in dedicated server to make screenshots via rcon possible
16:33<TheDude>hello Terkhen
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16:35<@Terkhen>TheDude: IIRC it needs some kind of patching
16:36<@Terkhen>I know that the openttdcoop guys run something like that, but I can't find any related project in their devzone
16:37<TheDude>does it?
16:37<TheDude>on n-ice , they can make screenshots of map with rcon with unpatched server
16:38<@Terkhen>maybe I'm misremembering things
16:38<TheDude>so it shold go without any patching, but I was told the server has to be run with blitter
16:38<@Terkhen>planetmaker should know
16:38<TheDude>but when I run server with blitter, it throws error that no blitter was found
16:40<@planetmaker>you need a patch which keeps the blitter in the binary
16:40<@planetmaker>if you use a normal binary that should still work
16:41<@planetmaker>and who says that they use an unpatched server?
16:43<@Terkhen>oh, so the patch is to add the blitter to an openttd binary compiled with enable dedicated
16:43<@Terkhen>without adding all the other stuff from a normal client?
16:52<TheDude>xor said that, he uses debian package from
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>once upon a time there was a difference between a blitter rendering everything into a buffer and throwing it all away, and a blitter skipping all the spritesorting and rendering altogether.
16:53<TheDude>in source is a line, where IF dedicated, blitter = NULL
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>TheDude: you can use the client program to run the dedicated server, and pass an option to switch between "null" and "dedicated" blitter (one of those)
16:53<TheDude>so no configure switch to involve blitter?
16:53<TheDude>hm, ok
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not an expert in that department
16:54<TheDude>so, by default, screenshots are not abailable for dedicated server?
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>let's say "it depends"
16:56<TheDude>depends? :)
16:56<@Terkhen>a default client running as dedicated server has the code for blitting because it is also a default client, but I have no clue if it can create screenshots while running as dedicated or not :P
16:59<@planetmaker>22:43 Terkhen: oh, so the patch is to add the blitter to an openttd binary compiled with enable dedicated <-- yes, that's what it does. There's also a patch which allows to make screenshots. But with the default binary, thus with blitter, you can use the admin port to issue screenshot commands
16:59<@Terkhen>I see :)
16:59<@Terkhen>oh, the unknown marvels of the admin port
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17:08<Eddi|zuHause>can't you also issue screenshot commands via rcon?
17:11<@planetmaker>yes, you can
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17:42<Asteconn>My name is not Dave
17:43<@Terkhen>according to what I know, your name might be Dave
17:44<Asteconn>Your level of knowledge about Asteconn is indeed lacking o.ô
17:45<Wolf01>'night all
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17:48<@Terkhen>honestly, it is completely null
18:05<@Terkhen>good night
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18:13<Asteconn>It is glorious!
18:13<Asteconn>My construct will conquer all!
18:22<Asteconn>15000 hp and 4.8 mN of tractive effort
18:22<Supercheese>That's over 9,000!
18:22<Asteconn>Yes it is
18:23<Asteconn>On both counts
18:24<Asteconn>Except speed
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18:52<Asteconn>I can get <110k hp with Avocets
18:52<Asteconn>And 9.1 mN of TE with Westerns
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19:23<Asteconn>I wonder if there is ever a scenario that you needed to use more than one of those thing s actually
19:26<Eddi|zuHause>some narrow gauge railways had to doublehead small engines, because bigger ones wouldn't fit the route
19:26<Eddi|zuHause>narrow curves and stuff
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---Logclosed Fri Aug 31 00:00:04 2012