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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-09-01

---Logopened Sat Sep 01 00:00:07 2012
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01:59<Supercheese>"Go to Halifax (Transfer and wait for any full load with auto-refit to Scrap Metal)"
01:59<Supercheese><3 autorefit
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02:50<Elukka>what's the point of the intercity coaches in 2cc?
02:50<Elukka>all coaches have the same speed limit, intercity coaches just have higher running costs and carry less passengers
03:02<Eddi|zuHause>i have never really played with 2cc
03:03<Eddi|zuHause>i think the point was "design speed". i.e. if you put a fast engine on low speed carriages, then you have very high running costs
03:17<@Terkhen>good morning
03:19<@planetmaker>Elukka: maybe they got slower/faster loading and worse/better payment
03:20<@planetmaker>Elukka: obviously the readme of that set is a bit lacking ;-)
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03:36<@Alberth>woop woop
03:37<@planetmaker>moin Alberth
03:44<@Terkhen>hi Alberth
03:44*planetmaker is crazy... checking out whole of svn :D
03:45<@planetmaker>I wonder why the connection is constantly reset, though...
03:45<@Alberth>at :)
03:45<@planetmaker>:D nah. there's a project I'm more interested in ;-)
03:45<@Alberth>server doesn't like big check-outs probably
03:46<@planetmaker>the many tags take time
03:47<@Terkhen>planetmaker: still on windows? :P
03:47<@planetmaker>the debian now runs. Except sound :D
03:47<@Terkhen>my theory for the resets is invalid then
03:48<@planetmaker>Terkhen: the openttd session yesterday... I played that on the new debian already ;-)
03:48<@Terkhen>nice :P
03:48<@Terkhen>it was quite fun
03:48<@planetmaker>seems today it forgot about the x-settings somewhat. but that's fixed now, too
03:49<@planetmaker>yes, the session was big fun :-)
03:50<@planetmaker>Alberth, I get a "svn: Compression of svndiff data failed
03:50<@planetmaker>" every few tags
03:51<@Alberth>no nice svn co flag to disable compression?
03:51<@planetmaker>I didn't check :-)
03:52<@planetmaker>But copying the zillions of tags I wonder whether we shouldn't move to a dvcs :-)
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03:55<@Terkhen>hi Zuu
03:55<Zuu>Hello Terkhen
03:57<@planetmaker>hi Zuu
03:57<@Alberth>planetmaker: ideas about an nml cpp? or perhaps, what's missing in the current cpp ?
04:00<Eddi|zuHause>code templates, instead of just graphics templates
04:00<@Alberth>multi-line #define ?
04:00<@planetmaker>most important is #include
04:00<Eddi|zuHause>something like that... :)
04:01<@Alberth>ie #macro(parms) <bunch of lines> #endmacro or so
04:01<@planetmaker>and such macros ^ will be very helpful, yes
04:01<Eddi|zuHause>avoid the syntactical ambiguities of cpp
04:02<@planetmaker>it would be nice to have the option to join the parameter with a string in a macro similar to the cpp parameters
04:02<@planetmaker>but at the same time... that's sometimes a bit awkward
04:02<@Alberth>like ## you mean?
04:02<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: what ambiguities?
04:03<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: all the hacky stuff that andythenorth so "likes" with the concatenation operator (##)
04:03<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. when the operand is itself a macro
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04:04<@Alberth>hi frosch123
04:04<@planetmaker>Alberth, the two important things is: include a file. And make a code template which can e.g. be re-used by many vehicles / industries. The latter needs vehicle-specific switch-names.
04:04<@Terkhen>hi frosch123
04:04<@planetmaker>moin frosch123
04:04<frosch123>morning everyone :)
04:04<frosch123>didn't know this was so active so early :p
04:04<Eddi|zuHause>i'm getting ready to go away for the weekend
04:04<@Alberth>planetmaker: the question seems to be how to introduce those names, I think
04:05<@Alberth>frosch123: we just fake being active :)
04:05<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker, Alberth: imho that should be solved by local scopes
04:05<@Alberth>I'd agree, but that's two problems instead of one :(
04:07<@Alberth>to me, it seems throwing cpp out is the first step that should be done
04:07<@Alberth>once you have that, you can think properly about local vars etc
04:07<Eddi|zuHause>does anybody use conditional compilation? (#if...)
04:08<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, that, imho, would be an additional feature
04:08<@planetmaker>Not sure it's needed. Unless you really want to create special newgrfs for special platforms
04:08<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: unless cets or andy does it, unlikely
04:08<Eddi|zuHause>i think i have a few instances in CETS
04:09<frosch123>e.g. defining a macro, and then including a file, which depends on the macros to do different things
04:09<frosch123>then undeffing them before next run
04:09<@planetmaker>I once toyed with it. But I don't have a real use case at hand
04:09<Eddi|zuHause>but in theory i could move those to the generator, so there are always other solutions
04:09<@Alberth>#if could be relatively easy, by using the nml expression evaluation
04:09<Eddi|zuHause>but i gtg now
04:10<@Alberth>ok, thanks for the input
04:12<frosch123>question is if you want to prevent users from using cpp in general, or whether you want template-style stuff only as add-on, while still allowing cpp for arbitrary stuff
04:12<@planetmaker>frosch123, you cannot forbid the use of cpp
04:13<frosch123>cpp is also used for version defines, and general build frame work -> code insertions
04:13<@planetmaker>but if the usual use-case of cpp is covered by nml itself, you can throw away a lot of cruft in the build scripts :-)
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04:13<@planetmaker>and make using it especially on windows much easier
04:13<frosch123>planetmaker: well, i doubt nml would do the readme.ptxt stuff :p
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04:13<Eddi|zuHause>like planetmaker said, "#include" is the most important for the average useer
04:13<frosch123>hmm... unless nml writes tars and includes those doc files
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04:14<@planetmaker>frosch123, I could insert the version also without resorting to cpp, I think. Like if NML accepts defines at command line time :-)
04:14<frosch123>wasn't there already something like custom_tags ?
04:14<@planetmaker>after all... I cannot do without a makefile. Which could write the grf block for instance with the proper version. But without cpp
04:15<@planetmaker>there is. Indeed. that can be used
04:15<@planetmaker>though... might only be for strings. Not the version in the grf block
04:15<frosch123>so custom tags would need extending for constant values in the code
04:16<@planetmaker>frosch123, generally it will be nice to maybe have an alias definition. But that could be covered by a general #define
04:16<@planetmaker>which would do e.g. for the grf version
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05:16<@Terkhen>hi Wolf01
05:18<@planetmaker>hi Wolf01
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05:38<Trainfucker>Hello I have a problem with OpenTTD
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05:39<__ln__>come back when you have learned to choose an appropriate nick
05:43<@planetmaker>__ln__, is totally right :-)
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05:52<Wolf01>now... I'll try how playable is OpenTTD on my brand new eee Slate
05:54<Wolf01>copy data from transport tycoon deluxe cd-rom... but, I can't :(
05:54<@Terkhen>use opengfx then :P
05:54<Trainfucker>My nick is fine
05:54<Trainfucker>If you tell me to change my nick then you are jelaous
05:55<Trainfucker>But if you don't want to know anything about a game-breaking bug then it's your own problem then
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05:55<Wolf01>ah, game breaking bug
05:55<V453000>I assume the bug was that he cant build signals on a bridge
05:56<Wolf01>ehm, I don't have the right mouse button :(
05:57<@Terkhen>that was my biggest problem when I tried the android port :P
06:00<Wolf01>we should implement the "long click menu", like in windows CE
06:00<frosch123>what do you need the rmb for?
06:00<frosch123>we have left-click scrolling
06:00<@Alberth>as in 'hoover delay' ? :)
06:00<frosch123>there is exactly one feature in the game, which need the rmb
06:01<frosch123>and that is the consist info the depot gui
06:01<frosch123>and then you also need a ctrl key to make really use of it :p
06:01<Wolf01>but I don't have ctrl too
06:01<frosch123>well, thaT
06:01*Terkhen was not able to change the advanced settings in android because the window did not fit the screen
06:01<frosch123>'s a problem then :)
06:02<Wolf01>ok, the game is well playable, the only problem is the ctrl (after switching to left mb scrolling)
06:03<@Terkhen>is there anything that could be used to simulate it? I have never used a tablet
06:05*Hirundo didn't know about the use of the rmb in the depot window
06:05<frosch123>it's one of the best hidden features :)
06:05<frosch123>also the only case of ctrl+rmb ever :)
06:06<@planetmaker>lol... installing debian's "testing" version of "the best" photo software for linux... it now downloads 1GByte of stuff
06:06<@Terkhen>I only know about it because frosch mentioned it while we were discussing the hover tooltips feature
06:06<Hirundo>is it (best hidden)-features or best-(hidden features) ?
06:06<frosch123>planetmaker: sounds like it included the best phohos ever, and just replaces you photo with one from the gallery
06:06<Hirundo>Or both :P ?
06:06<@Terkhen>planetmaker: it is probably downloading newer versions of all dependencies :P
06:06<@Terkhen>Hirundo: both, I guess
06:06<@planetmaker>:-) There are no photos on this machine yet :-P
06:07<@planetmaker>Terkhen, exactly that
06:07<@planetmaker>which is like whole of kde and stuff
06:07<@planetmaker>obviously also gcc... :D
06:07<@Terkhen>oh, downloading stuff from another DE, that's fun
06:08<@planetmaker>like the available version in stable is like offering openttd 0.7 now
06:08<@planetmaker>which just doesn't cut it
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06:09<Wolf01><Terkhen> is there anything that could be used to simulate it? I have never used a tablet <- the only thing I can think about is an hardware button :P
06:09<@Terkhen>debian is meant to be safe and stable... for many apps that's fine, but for games it is not
06:09<Wolf01>at least on my smartphone when I need to use the rmb on the scummvm I use one of the volume buttons
06:10<Wolf01>the other one toggles the "hovering"
06:10<@Terkhen>openttd could show a small button at one of the bottom corners which simulates holding Ctrl, but I don't know if most touchscreens allow you to touch at two places at once
06:11<@Terkhen>it's the only solution I can come up with, and it sounds hacky
06:11<__ln__>it would need to be a togglable button
06:12<@planetmaker>hm, seems I just update my whole system to testing. oh well
06:12<Hirundo>IMO all ctrl-features should be achievable by different means, though I don't know how feasible that is
06:12<__ln__>but even then i bet it would be tedious to use ottd on a touchscreen
06:12<frosch123>well, considering how often it was suggested to switch ctrl and non-ctrl behaviour, we might generally add a ctrl-lock button :p
06:12<@planetmaker>a general mode switch button in the main toolbar?
06:13<@Terkhen>of course, it would be yet another advanced setting, the button should not appear if you are not using a touchscreen
06:13<@planetmaker>which has the lock functionality like the visibility toolbar?
06:13<@planetmaker>and switches automatically when using ctrl (unless locked)?
06:13<Wolf01>I think this way is the most practical: radial context menu on 3 second click
06:14<frosch123>Terkhen: i thought about also offering for non touch-screens :p
06:14<frosch123>just for ctrl-lock :p
06:14<frosch123>resp. ctrl-invert
06:14<@Terkhen>that could be fine, as long as it does not appear by default
06:14<Wolf01>and if I want to play with a joypad?
06:15<@Terkhen>good luck?
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07:55<@Terkhen>hi andythenorth
07:57<Squire>Morning. I overslept again. There has to be something wrong with me. I went to bed at 22:00, awake at 12:30, what the crap?
07:58<Zuu>Squire: Write a python script that start a music file at a given time and remember to not turn of the computer or lound speakers. :-)
07:59<Squire>hehe, I could do that. I actually had a vB alarm clock I made at college. Lost it in a HDD crash years back
08:00<Zuu>Most todays cell phones get the sound muffed if you accidently put them on a carpet or a book or anything else that absorbs the sound.
08:00<Squire>and I had the weirdest dream that I was being chased around a lake by Sean Connery. I am beginning to think that my wife might have drugged me
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08:04<@planetmaker>she has. it's called hormones, Squire
08:05<NGC3982>A OpenTTD classic: Using the viewport to plant large distances of rail. Using the terraform tool to fix a "minor mountain" resulting in spending 650 billion USD on accidently terraforming the whole map.
08:05<frosch123>planetmaker: are you sure that would spawn sean connery?
08:06<@planetmaker>frosch123: I'm only sure it would not work for me. But who knows how it works for others :-)
08:06*NGC3982 takes this as a sign for breakfest
08:06<@planetmaker>NGC3982: I'm really not sure how that can happen
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08:10<Squire>I blame pheromones (pheramones?)
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08:25<NGC3982>Accidently moving the pointer to the viewport while terraforming locally.
08:26<+glx>it's a feature :)
08:26<NGC3982>Yes, of course.
08:26<+glx>just press shift before releasing the button
08:27<NGC3982>It's not like i know how to do it properly. That's why i Bah:d.
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10:58<CIA-2>OpenTTD: terkhen * r24503 /trunk/src/road_cmd.cpp: -Change [FS#5228]: When building long roads or tramways, only build the roadbits at the beginning and the end if they can connect to something.
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12:07<Elukka>Eddi|zuHause: what's the status on CETS? still need wagons?
12:07<Elukka>can't guarantee that i'd get anything done though...
12:08<Elukka>and is it now 32bpp? i looked at it a while back and kinda noticed oberhümer's colors don't match up with the ones in my old sprites now at all
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13:20<Zuu>hello Guilux
13:26<Muxy>Guilux: sounds like some schmilblik
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13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24504 /trunk/src/lang/russian.txt:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: russian - 2 changes by Lone_Wolf
13:49<CIA-1>OpenTTD: zuu * r24505 /trunk/src/ai/ai_gui.cpp: -Add: Select the GS tab if all AI tabs are unselectable in the AI debug window.
13:51<andythenorth>anyone played a big FIRS game recently?
13:51<andythenorth>trying to figure out if anyone *ever* uses Fertiliser Plant
13:51*andythenorth suspects not
13:54<frosch123>what does it produce?
13:55<andythenorth>from chemicals
13:55<andythenorth>it's a 3rd-step processing industry
13:55<Zuu>If you remove it you will notice if anyone was using it before. :-)
13:55<andythenorth>I am thinking of either removing it, or doing an evil inspired by Pikka
13:56<frosch123>so, we need a nocargoal game with fmsp
13:56<frosch123>then someone will use it
13:58<andythenorth>thinking...8t chemicals delivered = 16t output....fertiliser is fixed from atmospheric nitrogen
13:58<andythenorth>pikka's idea ;P
13:58<andythenorth>also I have a nice idea for supplies mechanic, but can't figure out how I would explain it in game
14:00<andythenorth>currently, production increase is a random chance at the end of every month, if at least 1t supplies delivered that month
14:00<andythenorth>and if successful, production multiplier is incremented by 1
14:00<andythenorth>and never falls, unless you have a silly parameter choice
14:01<andythenorth>which is a nice idea, but slow
14:01<frosch123>well, we still failed with milk :)
14:01<frosch123>and if it is too fast, you cannot play longer than for 10 years
14:01<andythenorth>also the range is silly, farms start with ~50t and go to 300t or so
14:01<andythenorth>I want to simplify the whole thing
14:02<andythenorth>deliver 30t, get a 2x production increase that lasts 3 months
14:02<andythenorth>deliver 120t get a 4x production increase that lasts 3 months
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14:02<andythenorth>at the end of the 3 month period, production reverts to 100% unless more supplies delivered
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14:02<andythenorth>farmers are more gung ho :)
14:03<andythenorth>might suck in testing, but it's my favourite of the many supplies ideas so far
14:03<andythenorth>I think it's way more suitable for NoCarGoal type GS play
14:05<andythenorth>just need time to code it for testing :P
14:05<andythenorth>unless anyone else wants to patch FIRS o_O
14:05<frosch123>yeah, non permanant production changes might also work
14:06<andythenorth>one of the (many) defects of the current system is that after a few years of FMSP production, there is a huge excess of them on the map
14:07<andythenorth>if I play ~70 years, I end up with 1000's of tonnes of FMSP unused, waiting at stations
14:07<andythenorth>anyway /me -> food :)
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15:36<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r24506 /trunk/src/newgrf_station.cpp: -Fix: Airport variables 60 to 65 an 69 used the wrong CTT for translations. (Alberth)
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15:43<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r24507 /trunk/src/rail_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#5285]: The mousewheel did not work in the build waypoint window. (sbr)
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17:27<@Terkhen>good night
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19:03<NGC3982>What NewGRF does the "Multiple Unit Wagon" belong to?
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19:58<Fremen>NGC3982 2cc ?
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