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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-09-07

---Logopened Fri Sep 07 00:00:40 2012
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01:58<@Terkhen>good morning
01:59<@planetmaker>good morning
02:08<NGC3982>A quick question
02:08<NGC3982>"das Küken" means "chicken" in german?
02:08<@planetmaker>a "küken" is a chicken baby
02:08<Supercheese>a chick, then
02:09<@planetmaker>or generally a baby bird
02:09<@planetmaker>more or less freshly hatched
02:09<NGC3982>It's a very, very (very) bad word in swedish.
02:10<@planetmaker>I didn't know that the Swedes had the letter ü
02:10<NGC3982>It's just "u", but the pronounciation is exactly the same.
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02:11<Supercheese>Exactly the same? When dealing with umlauts, that seems doubtful
02:11<Supercheese>but perhaps
02:12<@planetmaker>my dictionary doesn't know that as swedish word
02:12<NGC3982>And it's not related to baby birds, as much as male genitalia.
02:12<NGC3982>Markk: Doesn't "kuk" exist as a SAOL word in swedish?
02:13<Markk>NGC3982: No idea mate.
02:13<__ln__>Supercheese: swedes pronounce their 'u' very close to like 'ü'.
02:13<NGC3982>It's vulgar slang.
02:13<NGC3982>According to the intarwebz.
02:13<Markk>__ln__: Not always.
02:14<Markk>__ln__: We have two ways of pronounce "u".
02:14<Supercheese>Hah, only two ways to pronounce vowels? In English there's almost dozens per vowel :P
02:15<@planetmaker> this should give the German translation in the right column
02:15<Markk>Supercheese: Depends on which wowel.
02:15<Supercheese>Yep, chick
02:15<@planetmaker>you can try to click several times... obviously there's different speakers... which pronounce it of course slightly different :-)
02:16<@planetmaker>I prefer the one with the long vowel
02:16<Markk>__ln__: But in the word "kuk" it's not pronounced like "ü" or "y".
02:16<NGC3982>planetmaker: When listening to the example file: If presented to a swede, he would definitely hear the vulgar slang for male penis.
02:17<@planetmaker>same stem as the English one, obviously
02:17<@planetmaker>and my point of contact at industry is... Ellen DeCock
02:17<@planetmaker>what a name. But she isn't Swedish nor English
02:17<__ln__>NGC3982: male .... there's a female one too??
02:17<Supercheese>For the longest time, a cock was merely a rooster
02:17<Supercheese>and then modern slang came in and messed the language up
02:18<NGC3982>__ln__: Of course. Have you never met the swedish mee-male?
02:18<__ln__>i hope not
02:18<@planetmaker>that's how language always worked and will work, Supercheese ;-)
02:18<NGC3982>I like that.
02:18*Supercheese wonders what Esperanto slang is like
02:18<Supercheese>what with it being a highly engineered language
02:19<NGC3982>I do enjoy the poeticism of the older swedish language, but new slang is just ..better.
02:19<@planetmaker>Es ist mir ein Pläsir, mich einer elaborierten deutschen Sprache zu befleißigen ;-)
02:20<@planetmaker>I guess I like the older style :D
02:20<@planetmaker>in German
02:20<NGC3982>I wish i had any idea of how that would look like.
02:21<NGC3982>Yes, i wish i knew more german, and more about the german language.
02:21<Markk>I now some phrases in German.
02:21<Supercheese>Does German have some interesting rules about capitalizing nouns? I've been meaning to learn more about the language and have been wondering
02:22<Markk>And I met a German girl the other day, and she asked what I could say in German.
02:22<@planetmaker>well, the sentence I just wrote... it definitely is not ordinary language style. It contains at least three words which are meanwhile nearly extinct in spoken language
02:22<NGC3982>PM: I see. "Pläsir"?
02:22<Supercheese>it seems that not only proper nouns end up capitalized
02:22<@planetmaker>NGC3982, basically same as pleasure or joy :-)
02:22<NGC3982>It's ..hanebüchen?
02:22<NGC3982>Ah, i see.
02:22<Markk>"Ich hätte lust mit großen tieren"
02:22<NGC3982>I named a local server at work "Schadenfreude".
02:22<Markk>She just laughed. :)
02:22<NGC3982>Markk: :D
02:22<@planetmaker>plaisire :-)
02:23<@planetmaker>most I like the verb "sich befleißigen" :-D. Which roughly translates to "make use of"
02:23<NGC3982>I see.
02:24<NGC3982>I had some german coffe with that name.
02:24<@planetmaker>NGC3982, Muckefuck is not real coffee. It's coffee substitute
02:24<@planetmaker>It's a difference ;-)
02:25<NGC3982>Ah, like Nëscafé, i guess.
02:25<Supercheese>or Folgers?
02:25<@planetmaker>but not really coffee. Which at least is even in Nescafe
02:25<@planetmaker>it's malt coffee
02:26<NGC3982>That doesn't actually sound that nice.
02:27<@planetmaker>it does. But it's not a brand but a name for a poor thing really ;-)
02:27<NGC3982>Speaking of german, and germans
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02:27<NGC3982>I have noticed something odd about communicating with german companies.
02:28<@planetmaker>even odd numbers are only prime when larger than the only truely odd prime ;-)
02:28<NGC3982>In swede, while e-mailing everyone from salesmen to company owners, i notice that the effort put in spelling and correct capitalization decreases with rank or company relevance.
02:29<NGC3982>The CEO doesn't even use personal greetings, and often emphazises the agenda with "!!?(&(?(".
02:30<NGC3982>But after working with germans for some time now, i notice the exact opposite.
02:31<@planetmaker>it's a bit a sign of carelessness to be sloppy there, isn't it? It also doesn't help clarity of communication to allow slander there when you try to tell people stuff
02:31<NGC3982>For my part, i try to use the language as correctly as possible, who-ever i write too.
02:31<NGC3982>At least in e-mails
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02:32<__ln__>NGC3982: *whomever
02:32<NGC3982>And yes, in my point of view: Doing e-mails like that is careless in both german and swedish.
02:32<NGC3982>__ln__: Thank you.
02:33<NGC3982>The problem for me is still the english though, as you can see.
02:33<NGC3982>But that's more forgiving, i guess.
02:34<Supercheese>If you measure your English against the average American's, then yes, it is very forgiving indeed ;)
02:35<Supercheese>I am dismayed at the state of the language in this country
02:38<NGC3982>Well, i notice that the germans and me have somewhat equal language skills
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02:39<NGC3982>Although, i speak more german than they speak english!
02:39*NGC3982 erases
02:39<NGC3982>Although, i speak more german than they speak swedish!
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02:47<NGC3982>Oh, crap.
02:48*NGC3982 prepare references to Midland cars from the sixties.
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02:58<@Terkhen>mine's from china then, I guess
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07:31<ZxBiohazardZx>is there a download location for "older" stables ?
07:32<ZxBiohazardZx>im creating a scenario atm
07:32<ZxBiohazardZx>and if i use the Chrill Patchpack then the 1.x.x stable users wont be able to join it
07:32<ZxBiohazardZx>but if i make it on 1.2.0 then the CPP isnt accepting it
07:32<ZxBiohazardZx>so is there a download for lets say 1.0.0 or 0.x.x to make scenario's (or a way to port my cpp-data into 1.x.x stable?)
07:33<ZxBiohazardZx>aka how did .scn data change apart from version?
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07:35<ZxBiohazardZx>ohi valhallasw
07:37<ZxBiohazardZx>has older versions?
07:38<lugo>und releases yes
07:38<ZxBiohazardZx>ok thanks
07:38<ZxBiohazardZx>that still leaves me with the question of "would it be portable to back-port" an existing scenario/map to older/newer version by hacking its data somewhere?
07:38<ZxBiohazardZx>or did .scn format change so insanely much that cross-porting over the versions truely is impossible?
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11:32<Rubidium>bonjour Belugas
11:33<@Belugas>salut Rubidium :) thanks, you always bring me back to nice memories doing so ;)
11:37<@Alberth>hi sir B
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12:23<@planetmaker>good evening
12:24<@planetmaker>hm, was there an issue that not all music sets from all TTD versions are understood by openttd?
12:28<Eddi|zuHause>yes, it can't read TTD DOS music
12:29<@planetmaker>I feared so
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12:33<frosch123>evening everyone :)
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12:55<@planetmaker>hi Frankr :-)
12:56<Knogle>hi :)
12:59<@planetmaker>hi Knogle
13:00<@planetmaker>and I meant to quak... instead of random highlights
13:00<frosch123>hi pugi :)
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13:11<Frankr>hey planetmaker :)
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13:15<pugi>hello frosch123
13:16<frosch123>wow, both pm an me did not hit idlers :)
13:17<pugi>i was downstairs eating dinner when you highlighted me
13:17<pugi>so i have an excuse :D
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13:39<@Yexo>good evening
13:40<Knogle>Hm, can GSGameSettings::SetValue make/save changes to openttd.cfg while a game is running?
13:41<@Yexo>why not?
13:42<Knogle>because if you manually make changes in openttd.cfg while a game is running, it'll be changed back, afaik.
13:42<@Yexo>oh, to openttd.cfg
13:42<@Yexo>no, they can't change that at all
13:42<@Yexo>a gamescript can only change the config for the currently running game
13:43<@Yexo>openttd.cfg is only for new games
13:43<@Yexo>there are some exceptions, some settings are GUI only
13:43<@Yexo>if you'd change one of those via a GS the change would be saved in openttd.cfg
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24512 /trunk/src/lang/ (czech.txt luxembourgish.txt):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: czech - 26 changes by Eskymak
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: luxembourgish - 7 changes by Phreeze
13:55<Zuu>Though, in most cases it would be a good practice to not change GUI settings in a GS as IMHO, GUI settings should be up to the players to decide upon.
13:55<frosch123>except for the tutorial :)
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13:56<Zuu>Even the tutorial acts upon what GUI settings that players choose rather than editing them.
13:57<frosch123>gs virus: mess up all the settings :)
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13:58<@planetmaker>evil frosch123, evil you! ;-)
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14:01<Eddi|zuHause>"this gamescript forbids you to make trees transparent"
14:02<@planetmaker>"this game script enforces TTD feeling" ;-)
14:02<Eddi|zuHause>we can't have that, as some settings were removed :)
14:03<@planetmaker>:-) yeah
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>speaking of TTD, anyone tried recreating the original german town name generator? whenever i load old TT(O/D) games, all the names are screwed up
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14:10<Knogle>Zuu: That's not what I wanted to changed though - I was wondering if I could set a random landscape or a random starting year for next game :)
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14:31<@Yexo>Knogle: you might be able to, but no guarantee: change the landscape/start year for the current game, then use "restart" instead of "newgame"
14:34<Knogle>worth a try
14:34<Knogle>I have my doubts though.
14:34<frosch123>if that works, then it is like the old climate cheat
14:35<frosch123>so, quickly start a new game before it breaks the old one :)
14:35<@Yexo>"if it works, we'll fix it so it no longer works on 1.3" :p
14:36<@Yexo>it works from the console
14:36<@Yexo>so very likely also from a GS
14:36<@Yexo>a GS is not really the right place to change such things though
14:37<@Yexo>Knogle: how do you start a new game? Afaik a GS can't do that
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14:42<Rubidium>salut monsieur lenord
14:43<Knogle>Yexo: don't think it can, no.. I was gonna do that manually to see.
14:43<@Yexo>so why change the settings via GS?
14:43<Knogle>anyway, it won't let me change the landspace using GSGameSettings::SetValue
14:43<@Yexo>if you do that manually to you can change the newgame settings
14:44<Knogle>but with GS, it could be changed to a random landscape, then use 'restart'
14:45<frosch123>how would you trigger the gS?
14:45<frosch123>you would have to plant a sign or something complicated
14:45<@Yexo>Knogle: you're using the wrong tool for the job
14:45<Knogle>I know I am, I just wanted to test it :P
14:46<@planetmaker>frosch123, if you have an "eternal server" the script could modify settings, then admin port restarts after game end
14:46<@Yexo>making a small program that uses the admin port, or even a wrapper around the console are better ways
14:46<Knogle>and planetmaker has a point
14:46<frosch123>planetmaker: can admin port change settings?
14:46<@planetmaker>but doing that all by admin port is the much better choice
14:46<@Yexo>but if you use the admin port to restart, why not use it to change the settings?
14:46<@planetmaker>frosch123, I hope it can change newgame settings :-)
14:46<@planetmaker>but I'm not sure
14:46<@planetmaker>but I'll be surprised, if it cannot
14:46<@Yexo>can't it send all rcon commands?
14:46<@planetmaker>after all it was designed to ^
14:47<frosch123>and yes, the setting is like the cheat
14:47<frosch123>it's is snowing in temperate :)
14:47<Knogle>GSGameSettings::SetValue expects integer as value
14:47<Knogle>so it can't set to "temperate"
14:48<frosch123>temperate is 0
14:48<frosch123>same as via the console
14:48<frosch123>"setting game_creation.landscape 1"
14:48<@planetmaker>console also doesn't accept text ;-)
14:48<Knogle>didn't know that
14:48<Knogle>learning every day :P
14:48<@planetmaker>Knogle, look at your openttd.cfg
14:48<Knogle>thats what I did
14:48<@planetmaker>there it gives you the accepted data type for each setting ;-)
14:49<Knogle>its set to "landscape = temperate"
14:49<Knogle>not 0
14:49<@planetmaker>hm, interesting :D
14:49<frosch123>"listsettings" console command is more useful
14:49<frosch123>esp. because it greps :)
14:50<andythenorth>Yexo / planetmaker would you help me modify FIRS supplies mechanic for test purposes?
14:50<@Yexo>sure, modify it to do what exactly?
14:50<Knogle>GSGameSettings.SetValue("landscape",0); and restart didn't work though.
14:50<andythenorth>I'll paste
14:51<Knogle>and I know there's better ways to do, and it's not really important to do so, I just wondered if you could make a script that does exactly that ;)
14:51<Knogle>to do it*
14:53<frosch123>Knogle: use the console to get the real setting name
14:53<frosch123>the setting name is not "landscape"
14:53<andythenorth>I should really be able to figure this out myself - but no sleep :P
14:54<Knogle>GSGameSettings.IsValid("landscape") returns true :P
14:55<andythenorth>industry production multiplier is 16 by default (just checked)
14:55<andythenorth>however I use cb15F to vary it
14:55<andythenorth>which is a bit more complicated
14:56<frosch123>Knogle: oh, apparently the shortened name also works :o
14:56<@Yexo>Knogle: are you testing in SP or MP?
14:56<@Yexo>the "landscape" setting can only be changed in single-player modus
14:56<@planetmaker>sounds fun, andythenorth. I'll do a quick shopping stop for some breakfast stuff, then I'm back on that
14:57<andythenorth>planetmaker Yexo thanks :)
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14:57<andythenorth>I meanwhile am writing a python script to calculate how much sleep I had recently
14:58<@planetmaker>but also sounds like ECS-like production changes ;-)
14:58<frosch123>what's worse? having no sleep, or having enough sleep and still being tired?
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14:58<@planetmaker>frosch123, the latter
14:58<@Yexo>the latter indeed
14:58<@Yexo>having no sleep is easy to fix ;)
14:59<Knogle>what they said ;)
14:59<@Yexo>in theory at least
15:00<andythenorth>planetmaker: it might be a bit more ECS like
15:00<andythenorth>I think it might be simpler too
15:01<andythenorth>testing will show :)
15:01<andythenorth>it's a straight copy of how it works in Railroad Tycoon (if my memory is correct) :P
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15:03<Knogle>Yexo: Sorry, missed your question.. I was testing in SP.
15:06<@Alberth>evenink Wolf01
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15:13<__ln__>oh, a star trek thing on google's front page.
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15:18<Eddi|zuHause>i must be a really bad trekky if i only recognize 4 out of 6 people
15:18<@Yexo>there are 2 more hidden behind the door
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15:19<Eddi|zuHause>hm, i suppose you need javascript for that
15:19<@Yexo>guess so
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15:22<Zuu>Implementing a Goal::UpdateGoal, I assume it is not needed to be able to update the company ID or goal destination. Only text and the new "progress" field that I'm adding.
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>hehe, tribbles :)
15:25<frosch123>Zuu: yeah, for changing company you can as well delete and create
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16:20<Zuu>Should *all* script preconditions be enforced, even if it means that you must find thte goal struct from the pool and check a value that the CMD function will check without a unneeded pool lookup?
16:22*andythenorth needs to install ply
16:22<andythenorth>that is remarkably hard
16:27<andythenorth>if setuptools is broken
16:27<andythenorth>why does setuptools break so much :P
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>use an os with a sane package manager
16:33<andythenorth>good point
16:34*andythenorth considers starting a Windows Vista VM for this
16:34<andythenorth>the node.js package manager is pretty good
16:34<andythenorth>maybe python should switch to it :P
16:35<andythenorth>fixed ply
16:36<andythenorth>now for PIL :P
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16:43<@Terkhen>vista? why vista?
16:44<andythenorth>funniest option I could think of
16:44<andythenorth>I don't have ME :P
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16:54<FLHerne>andythenorth: What's wrong with OS7? :P (other than minor program bugs causing hard crashes ;-) )
16:54<andythenorth>does it run in a VM on intel? :P
16:54<andythenorth>thought not :P
16:55<FLHerne>andythenorth: I believe there's an m68k emulator out there somewhere :-)
16:56<FLHerne>Yup, found it:
16:57<FLHerne>The other option is to keep a stack of m68k and PPC laptops in a cupboard, of course :D
17:00<andythenorth>let me know when you've compiled nmlc for PPC
17:00<andythenorth>it should work, if you can get python running
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>you need 2GB-ish of RAM to compile CETS
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17:04<FLHerne>That sounds fun. Perhaps when I get my PBG4 working again... :-)
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>maybe i should port the whole thing to NFO
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>i mean i already do loads of processing outside NML anyway
17:06<@Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: nml takes that much memory?
17:06<Zuu>Started to code on goal window improvements:
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: yes, i presume just building up the syntax tree
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: it also spends most of the time in PLY code
17:07<@Yexo>I'll see what I can do about that
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>(that is, after i took out all the template calculations)
17:14<@Terkhen>Zuu: nice :O
17:15<Zuu>Its maybe a bit rough on the edges so far as I just started with it a few hours ago.
17:15<Zuu>For example I just use 40 pixels for the progress column.
17:15<Zuu>Which for sure will fail if the font is too large.
17:19<Zuu>Hmm, do we actually have any window that show tabular text that support font sizes?
17:19<Zuu>Eg. both town and industry list cheat by not showing data in real columns.
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17:21<Zuu>Hmm, the economy window uses columns and at least the first one could in theory be very wide if a wide language + font is used.
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17:25<@Yexo>good night
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17:26<Zuu>night Yexo
17:28<@planetmaker>Zuu, I don't we exactly have that. To a degree the depot views are a gridded window
17:29<@planetmaker>but it's by all means not text only :-)
17:29<@planetmaker>and sizes there iirc are defined rather by sprite sizes
17:30<Zuu>I figured out that the infrastructure respect the string length for its first column. And it being not too complicated gives some help on how to do it.
17:30<Zuu>Basically, you have to override a Window member and there test-render all strings to get the width of them to compute the column withs.
17:31<Zuu>Something I think that I will save for another day.
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17:48<@Terkhen>good night
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18:42<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: i've read code like that in the timetable window patches, back when i tried to move it to the new window system
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18:47<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: should be not much more than "foreach (entry) { width max= GetStringWidth(entry); } widget->width = width;"
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23:03<aditsu>hi, I joined a multiplayer game earlier, but now I get "network-game connection lost" every time I try to reconnect, what can I do about it?
23:26<aditsu>oh, it worked eventually
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---Logclosed Sat Sep 08 00:00:44 2012