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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-09-08

---Logopened Sat Sep 08 00:00:44 2012
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01:35<andythenorth>lo
01:36<Supercheese>salve
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02:16<@Terkhen>good morning
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03:15*andythenorth ponders NoConomy
03:15<andythenorth>where is alberth? :)
03:18<@Terkhen>enjoying the weekend, I hope
03:18<@Terkhen>hi andythenorth
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03:24<andythenorth>hmm
03:24<andythenorth>no frosch either :)
03:26<andythenorth>so anyway
03:26<andythenorth>newgrf has multiple ways to exert control over production
03:26<andythenorth>if newgrf lost ability to set prod_level, that would be cleaner
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03:27<andythenorth>then ottd could set prod_level to [whatever] NoConomy decides
03:27<andythenorth>then GS could tell ottd NoConomy methods what prod_level to set
03:27<Wolf01>hello
03:27<andythenorth>and then there are no conflicts
03:28<andythenorth>newgrf authors may have to write a little more code than previously, but it's not hard
03:28<andythenorth>NoConomy provides a base prod_level multiplier
03:28<andythenorth>each industry instance can then modify that according to any rules newgrf chooses
03:28<andythenorth>it's clean
03:29<@planetmaker>sound simply like just another global variable
03:29<@planetmaker>good morning :-)
03:29<andythenorth>in this case it involves removing some of the newgrf API
03:29<andythenorth>but no functionality is lost, because there are other ways to get same result
03:30<andythenorth>as Yexo proved last night with his FIRS patch, which was done without using prod_level
03:30<andythenorth>because of the way it was patched it also works seamlessly with industry production cheat, which also happens to set prod_level
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03:53<andythenorth>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/raw/1699/
03:59-!-Alberth [~hat3@2001:980:272e:1:21a:92ff:fe55:fc8d] has joined #openttd
03:59-!-mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ
04:00<@Alberth>moin
04:02<@Terkhen>hi Alberth
04:02<@planetmaker>hi Alberth
04:03<@Alberth>2 other devs awake already :)
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04:08<@Terkhen>half awake actually :P
04:08<andythenorth>bonjour Alberth
04:08<andythenorth>2 other devs, and one andythenorth trying to delete some of the newgrf spec
04:09<@Alberth>good, good, please proceed mr the north.
04:10<andythenorth>this lacks context
04:10<andythenorth>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/raw/1699/
04:12<@Alberth>I would not mention noconomy at this time
04:13<andythenorth>it's my shorthand for 'openttd should handle more economy stuff'
04:13<andythenorth>and 'newgrfs should stop trying to handle it badly'
04:13<andythenorth>but yeah, point
04:14<@Alberth>you should bring the change in a positive way, more co-operation with player actions, or better handling of probabilites or so
04:15<@Alberth>euhm co-ordination with player actions
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04:15<@Alberth>probability handling could be quite convincing imho
04:15<@Alberth>hi frosch
04:15<andythenorth>you're proposing marketing? :O
04:15<andythenorth>:)
04:15<@Alberth>duh :D
04:16<frosch123>morning everone :)
04:16<andythenorth>can't I just grumble about everything that is broken and should be rm-ed :P
04:16<andythenorth>who needs benefits :P
04:17<andythenorth>hi frosch123
04:18<frosch123>if you have a method to rm -rf /tt-forums/off-topic, then i am all in
04:18<andythenorth>is that a place I should go?
04:19<andythenorth>I went there once by accident
04:19<andythenorth>it was very annoying
04:19<andythenorth>I nearly flamed everyone
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04:19<frosch123>actually it is fine as long as they do not show up on the rest of the forums :p
04:20<andythenorth>frosch123: so I have a proposal. To avoid confusion by talking about implementation instead of result....
04:20<andythenorth>...the proposal is basically 'make prod_level read only for newgrf'
04:21<andythenorth>and the 'benefit' is cleaner interface
04:21<andythenorth>and possibility for more control to move back to openttd (and in future, GS)
04:23<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: what's preventing you from simply not using it?
04:24<andythenorth>nothing
04:24<andythenorth>this is about a cleaner interface
04:24<frosch123>write a tool which ranks newgrfs as andy-clean
04:24<Eddi|zuHause>then rewrite all existing GRFs to this method
04:24<frosch123>anyway, users can already change prod_level using cheats
04:25<andythenorth>yes
04:25<frosch123>so there is no problem with gs changing it
04:25<andythenorth>except
04:25<frosch123>if the newgrf conflicts, it's the user's fault
04:25<andythenorth>so who wins cb29 / 35?
04:25<andythenorth>you'd have to run an auction
04:25<andythenorth>you now have two bidders for the result instead of one
04:26<frosch123>andythenorth: just like for town growth
04:26<frosch123>gs can set town growth to fixed rate, or to automatic
04:26<frosch123>just always give priority to the gs
04:26<andythenorth>so that's an auction
04:26<andythenorth>and gs always wins
04:28<andythenorth>ok, so that's a proposal to change spec of cb29 / 35?
04:28<andythenorth>instead of: newgrf may set prod_level
04:29<andythenorth>now: newgrf may attempt to set prod_level, but openttd may over-rule it
04:29<Eddi|zuHause>in how far is there a "change"?
04:30<Rubidium>Alberth: but... I was awake as well... replacing the tires on my bike
04:30<Rubidium>(without the proper tools)
04:30<andythenorth>use spoons
04:31<andythenorth>currently newgrf has absolute control over prod_level
04:31<@Alberth>oh, and at work already. Welcome then as well Rubidium
04:31<andythenorth>frosch123 proposes that newgrf does not have absolute control over prod_level
04:32<frosch123>andythenorth: changing production should be no problem
04:32<frosch123>overruling closure might be
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04:40<andythenorth>ok so on this proposal newgrf can only suggest prod_level
04:41<andythenorth>now a GS can trivially break something like (current) FIRS supplies
04:41<andythenorth>so we get whining from newgrf authors
04:42<Eddi|zuHause>i still don't see the problem
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04:42<andythenorth>it's a change to newgrf spec
04:42<andythenorth>is all
04:42<andythenorth>seems to be following case
04:43<andythenorth>- I propose change to newgrf spec
04:43<andythenorth>- reply: don't change newgrf spec
04:43<andythenorth>- instead do xyz
04:43<andythenorth>- xyz changes newgrf spec
04:44<Eddi|zuHause>no, what i meant was: "i do not see the situation that causes the need for any change"
04:44<andythenorth>ah ok
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04:45<andythenorth>so fundamental issue: do you think openttd / GS should be able to control production level of primary industries?
04:46<andythenorth>control / influence /s
04:46<Eddi|zuHause>i'd say "no"
04:46<Eddi|zuHause>and then there comes someone along muttering "production cheat" and stuff
04:46<andythenorth>ok :)
04:47<andythenorth>so for 'no', there is no problem :)
04:47<Eddi|zuHause>what happens inside an industry is clearly a newgrf task
04:48<andythenorth>I see gameplay benefits in being able to influence amount of produced cargo via openttd or GS
04:48<andythenorth>e.g. recessions, economic changes etc
04:49<andythenorth>or unlocking stages of a challenge
04:49<andythenorth>"You have completed stage 1, coal production increases across the map"
04:49<andythenorth>etc
04:50<Eddi|zuHause>ok, but then again, what is the problem with that?
04:51<andythenorth>with doing that?
04:51<andythenorth>can't be done currently
04:52<Eddi|zuHause>the newgrf specs never said that cbXY was the only way that values could change
04:52<Eddi|zuHause>and it also never said that the values would be the same the next time the cb is run
04:52<andythenorth>that's one interpretation yes
04:52<andythenorth>I don't read it that way
04:52<andythenorth>I don't think other authors would either
04:52<Eddi|zuHause>so whoever sets the value last, "wins"
04:53<andythenorth>I don't have a strong opinion on it, but I think it's a spec change
04:53<andythenorth>it breaks pretty nearly every known industry set afaik
04:53<andythenorth>based on current test patch, FIRS will probably be changed to handle it nicely though
04:54<andythenorth>which is nice for me and FIRS authors :P
04:54<Eddi|zuHause>what kind of "break"?
04:54<andythenorth>less so for others?
04:54<Eddi|zuHause>what currently happens during a recession?
04:54<andythenorth>depends on newgrf
04:54*andythenorth wonders which other sets actually would break
04:54<andythenorth>PBI I'd have to read src
04:55<andythenorth>ECS too
04:55<andythenorth>maybe it would be fine
04:55<andythenorth>maybe just add a note to spec and all is well
04:56<andythenorth>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Callbacks#Random_production_change_.2829.29
04:56<andythenorth>just add "OpenTTD may over-ride the value you return, for more precise control use the production callback to generate produced cargo"
04:59<andythenorth>solved?
05:02<Eddi|zuHause>that is probably worded badly
05:02<andythenorth>improve?
05:03<Eddi|zuHause>recessions and stuff are an original feature, and the production cheat is also very old
05:04<andythenorth>recessions don't touch the newgrf
05:04<andythenorth>unless it explicitly allows them
05:05<andythenorth>newgrf has absolute control except for production cheat
05:05<andythenorth>* recessions don't touch the newgrf *if* it handles cb29 / cb35 *and* it doesn't return 04
05:05<andythenorth>it's not a simple situation ;)
05:08<andythenorth>suggestion: allow openttd / GS to over-ride prod_level, see what breaks over time, deal with it later?
05:09<@Terkhen>I'm against anything that includes "deal with it later" :P
05:09<andythenorth>empiricism :D
05:09<andythenorth>don't solve things that aren't proven to be a problem
05:10<andythenorth>if TB had stopped to think through all problems GS might cause, we wouldn't have it :)
05:10<@Terkhen>indeed :)
05:10<@Terkhen>nah
05:11<@Terkhen>problems were thought :P
05:11<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: other approach: GS influencing production will run the random callback, or some new callback?
05:11<@Terkhen>except this one :D
05:11<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: then newgrf keeps its control, but GS gets some
05:12<andythenorth>that's my proposal
05:12<andythenorth>no new cb
05:12<andythenorth>openttd can reject result newgrf returns to cb 29 / 35
05:12<andythenorth>GS can influence openttfd
05:12<andythenorth>it's a clean set of separations
05:12<Eddi|zuHause>no, that is something very different
05:12<Sacro>custom bridgeheads, go
05:13<Eddi|zuHause>than what i just suggested
05:13<andythenorth>oh you trigger cb29
05:13<andythenorth>and newgrf handles that
05:13<andythenorth>?
05:13<Eddi|zuHause>yes
05:14<andythenorth>ok
05:14<andythenorth>sounds reasonable
05:14<Eddi|zuHause>var10 (or something) contains what the GS wants to do (double, halve, set to minimum, close, whatever)
05:14<andythenorth>why does newgrf get to keep control?
05:15<Eddi|zuHause>and newgrf can then agree with it, or not
05:15<andythenorth>or rather, why does newgrf need that?
05:15<Eddi|zuHause>_someone_ needs to have the final word
05:16<Eddi|zuHause>and i think this way around is cleaner/needs fewer changes
05:17<andythenorth>newgrf already has complete control anyway via production cb
05:17<andythenorth>currently it has too many ways to do production imho
05:17<andythenorth>more than is necessary
05:18<andythenorth>it makes everything harder
05:18<Eddi|zuHause>but you cannot remove any controls
05:18<Eddi|zuHause>except by moving to GRFv9 and invalidating all old GRFs
05:18<andythenorth>that's fine
05:20<Eddi|zuHause>that means ALL grfs, no matter whether they provide industries or not
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05:23<andythenorth>interesting
05:23<andythenorth>I had missed that implication
05:23<andythenorth>when we moved to v8, old grfs continued working
05:26<andythenorth>hmm
05:26<andythenorth>so maybe we should not allow GS to control industry production at all
05:26<Eddi|zuHause>yes, because we kept everything in place for grf<8
05:26<andythenorth>it's quite frustrating being bound to this broken idea that industry newgrfs can provide most of the economy
05:27<Eddi|zuHause>some callbacks were removed in favour of cb36, but all these callbacks were kept as legacy code
05:28*andythenorth tries to figure out a route :|
05:28<andythenorth>player advanced setting? "Industry production changes: newgrf | GS"
05:29<Eddi|zuHause>now you're getting silly :)
05:29<andythenorth>a new action 0 prop for newgrf? "Permit prod_level to be change"
05:29<andythenorth>trying to think of simple, nice ways around this :)
05:29<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, g2g
05:29<andythenorth>k
05:29<andythenorth>ta
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06:04<@planetmaker>http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/astropix.html very nice :-)
06:05<@planetmaker>to boldly go where no man has gone before ;-)
06:09<Rubidium>but it isn't 'there' yet, right?
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06:15<@planetmaker>dunno. As I understand it, it's in the transition region. Neither here nor there.
06:16<Rubidium>so if Voyager I is the farthest, what probe is second farthest
06:17<frosch123>in any case, there has still been no man :)
06:17<frosch123>and i am happy for that one
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06:35<@planetmaker>Rubidium, the 2nd furthest alive spacecraft is... surprise, Voyager2 ;-)
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07:30<Rubidium>planetmaker: then when did it pass Pioneer 10
07:31<Rubidium>As of July 25, 2012, Voyager 2 is traveling at 15.447 km/s relative to the Sun, and currently at a distance of about 99.13 astronomical units
07:32<Rubidium>october 2009: Projections indicate that Pioneer 10 reached 100 AU
07:33<Rubidium>Feb 8 2012: Its distance from the Sun is about 105.197 (Pioneer 10)
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07:36<Rubidium>Feb 8 2012 Voyager 1: 119.70479 astronomical units from the Sun
07:56<@planetmaker>Rubidium, communication with Pioneer 10 was lost 10 years ago.
07:56<@planetmaker>"The final, very weak signal from Pioneer 10 was received on January 23, 2003 when it was 12 billion-kilometers (80 AU) from Earth"
07:57<TrueBrain>clearly no Duracell batteries
07:58<@planetmaker>:-) or luckily?
07:59<@planetmaker>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_for_Nuclear_Auxiliary_Power :D
08:07<Rubidium>planetmaker: so what, it's remains man made
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08:14<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r24513 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 4 dirs): -Add: [Script] ScriptIndustryType::IsProcessingIndustry.
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08:18<Elukka>one of these days we're gonna have to start launching proper nuclear reactors
08:18<Elukka>if we ever want to do anything significant in space
08:20<frosch123>"significant in space" is an interesting term
08:20<frosch123>is a supernove something significant?
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08:22<Rubidium>no, those are generally only tiny and insignificant for us
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08:45*andythenorth needs a nap
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09:05<Elukka>significant as in significant human activity
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11:02<Zuu>Hmm, so currently there are company specific goals and global goals. They are stored in the same structure with company_id set to a special value for global goals. In this storage structure its non-trivial to allow global goals to store progress for all 14 companies, while the company goals only need to store one progres text.
11:02<Zuu>Furthermore, I start to wonder if it makes sense to have a global goal with company specific progress trackning.
11:02<Zuu>Isn't global goals, goals that all companies should cooperate on?
11:03<frosch123>for nocargoal it's a goal which every company tries to achieve
11:03<Zuu>If they compeete on the goal, just duplicate the goal for all companies as specific goals with the same text. Then you get capability to track progress and completeness state for all companies.
11:04<frosch123>yeah maybe
11:05<frosch123>what worried me about nocargoal was that the target date is the same for all companies, indedendent on when they start
11:05<frosch123>so, yeah, maybe most goals should be company specific
11:05<frosch123>and only cooperative goals should be global
11:05<Zuu>I just think that we might overengineer things if global goals get a special storage type with an array for storing progress/completeness and the other goals are stored as individual goal (IDs) per each company.
11:06<frosch123>yeah, you might be right :)
11:06<Zuu>One reason why NoCarGoal use the global goals currently is to allow spectators to see the goal cargoes.
11:07<Zuu>If all players/spectators could see all goals, the global goals are not so important anymore.
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11:13<@Alberth>Zuu: where to find 'AILibrary' needed by (game script) Superlib-25 ?
11:14<Zuu>Why would a game script need AILibrary?
11:14<Zuu>You can get SuperLib for NoGo from bananas.
11:14<Zuu>http://bananas.openttd.org/en/gslibrary/
11:14<@Alberth>I have superlib-25, but no AILibrary
11:15<Zuu>it will need RPF 4 for nogo, but what is the error message?
11:15<frosch123>i guess it should say game script lbrary
11:16<@Alberth>frosch123: it should omho, otherwise Superlib is not findable
11:16<@Alberth>Zuu: I looked for "Superlib" version 25, and I ended up with an AI one, apparently
11:17<frosch123>you need superlib for nogo
11:17<frosch123>http://bananas.openttd.org/en/gslibrary/
11:18<@Alberth>yeah, I figured as much, but thanks :)
11:18<@Alberth>Zuu: imho it wouldl REALLY help if you give different a different name
11:18<frosch123>i cannot find the error message in the source you are refering to
11:20<@Alberth>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1701/ <-- I get this a few times at the console
11:20<Zuu>Alberth: What should I give a different name?
11:20<frosch123>oh, you installed an ai library into the gs lib directory
11:21<frosch123>and ottd fails to distinguish them :)
11:21<Zuu>Or you refer to the fact that AI and NoGo version use the same short name?
11:21<frosch123>the library derives its main class from AIlibrary, which is not present when ottd loads a gs lib
11:22<Zuu>I'll take a look in my conversion script and see if it needs an adjustment there. Though I never had any problem with that. But it could be that OpenTTD is just kind and accept it even if its not correct.
11:23<frosch123>Zuu: it's no problem with your lib
11:23<@Alberth>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1702/ <-- this is what you get when running silicon valley without superlib
11:23<frosch123>just ottd tries to load the library.nut which uses AILibrary instead of GSLibrary
11:23<@Alberth>how am i to know i need FOO_for_NoGo ??
11:23<frosch123>ottd just has no way to distinguish ai from gs libs, except by printing that error
11:24<frosch123>Alberth: AIlibrary is no external library
11:24<frosch123>it's ottd itself
11:24<frosch123>just that ottd does not provide this class for gs
11:25<Zuu>Alberth: By downloading via bananas or investigate in what dependencies a gs/ai have.
11:25<Zuu>I try to include the dependency info in text for my AIs/GSs for those who try to download manually but generally recommend people to use bananas as that removes all that hassle.
11:25<@Alberth>util.superlib seems clear enough to me
11:25<@Alberth>Zuu: yep, except my bananas is down :p
11:26<@Alberth>now if you use "whateverlib", I would have found the right thing
11:26<Zuu>In your case you can also untar the AI/GS and look in main.nut and within the 50 first lines or so see which depnedencies there are.
11:26<Zuu>However, that is not something I would suggest to the average player :-p
11:27<@Alberth>import("util.superlib", "SuperLib", 25); <-- that?
11:27<Zuu>Yep
11:27<@Alberth>it still says "Superlib" not SuperLib_for_nogo
11:28<@Alberth>so I am to know that by magic or so?
11:28<Zuu>I guess it could be more clear. But from my point of view, I found it self explaining that a GS use the GS version of a library and not the AI version.
11:29<frosch123>rename the classic superlib to superlib for noai :)
11:29<@Alberth>+1
11:29<Zuu>I generally don't suggest that a user need to look into main.nut to find this out.
11:30<@Alberth>it's even useless, the info is not even there
11:31<Zuu>I see your point. However, I think the way I though was that the "for NoGo" part is not really part of the name but something that explains the target/platform for the library.
11:35<@Alberth>is there a pathfinder.road for nogo too?
11:36<frosch123>it's listed on bananas at least
11:36<frosch123>generally no ai lib fors gor gs
11:36<@Alberth>thanks
11:36<frosch123>*no ai lib works for gs
11:36<frosch123>:s
11:37<Zuu>Indeed, as all calls to the API are prefixed by AI for AIs and GS for GSs, so releasing a universal library is non-easy.
11:38<@Alberth>it has no _for_nogo extension, it seems
11:39<@Alberth>which is going to be fun to have together :)
11:39<Zuu>Neither does any of the other ports that came after my NoGo port.
11:41<Zuu>So if you want consistency it is rather that the SuperLib port should be renamed which makse more sense now given that it now have almost all functionallity of the AI version.
11:41<Zuu>At the beginning the NoGo version was limited and did only support a subset of what the AI version could do.
11:42<Zuu>However when it was released it was an experimental test to see how much part of it that was possible to transfer into the new GS area.
11:43<@Alberth>oh, that's fine, my only problem is that naming conventions are currently confusing
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12:14<Zuu>Alberth: If "SuperLib for NoGo" would have been named just "SuperLib" on bananas, would you have found it easier then?
12:19<Zuu>frosch123: Is your proposal still to add a new top-level button for Goals? Or to have a "goal" item in the company legue menu? Or to ... ?
12:20<frosch123>what number of nogo windows are on the list to add?
12:20<frosch123>i remember replacnig the league and score window
12:21<frosch123>and if the score window would remain with tabs, the goals should as well maybe
12:21<Zuu>We had a discussion a week ago or so to allow GSs to create additional detail windows in case the goal list is not enough.
12:23<Zuu>But I also see your point that the GUI generally have these list at top level menus with all companies there.
12:23<Zuu>And one way is to do like that and then on the company specific goal window in future add a "details" button or similar if we add a such capability.
12:24<frosch123>anyway, width is not really a problem
12:24<frosch123>the toolbar scales
12:24<frosch123>and there were also buttons added in the past
12:25<Zuu>Ok, I had the suspection that it might be a problem, but was not sure. That is why I asked you :-)
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12:27<Zuu>But then your proposal to have a new goal button that open up a window for the current company (with drop down to see the window for other companies) with the goals may be good.
12:27<Zuu>Any details would then be opened from there.
12:27<Zuu>We get a clear goal button then in the GUI that isn't hidden away from players.
12:28<Zuu>If the button is invisible if there are no goals, that is even more a clear indication that the game have or have not goals
12:29<frosch123>maybe: currently there is the league menu, with league and score
12:29<frosch123>if we remove both of them if a gs is present
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12:29<frosch123>we can add a gs league, and one item per company for the goals
12:29<frosch123>then it would work like the company button
12:30<frosch123>(one item per company, plus separate client list and spectate)
12:30<Zuu>For GSs that provide game changes/goals it make sense to replace the default company league table with a rating from the GS.
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12:32<Zuu>But maybe it is easiest to code it so that if any GS is loaded, the default company league is disabled and leave it up to GSs to decide if they want to implement a replacement or not. (but if they don't there is no league at all)
12:33<Zuu>Btw, some of my previous ideas (1-2 week ago) are written down here: http://wiki.openttd.org/GS_Ideas
12:35<Zuu>So to update that one, the fist point for Goal Window would change to "Add a new main toolbar button which opens up company specific goal windows in the same way as eg. the economy window works"
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12:48<Ryton>120 users in the channel, wow!
12:48<Zuu>120 irc clients connected
12:48<frosch123>nah, more like 4
12:48<frosch123>and 166 idlers
12:49<frosch123>*116
12:50<Ryton>hehe. sounds like a duth politic figure: i can still count: 74
12:50<Ryton> +32 is 116. (or the like;-)
12:52<@Alberth>Zuu: not really, http://bananas.openttd.org/en/gslibrary/ is a magic url, it seems
12:52<@Alberth>there is no "game library" in the list above
12:53<@Alberth>imho different libraries should be clearly distinguishable by name
12:54<frosch123>let's blame TrueBrain for both :p
12:55<@Alberth>that may help in a few of the above cases :)
12:56<Zuu>Alberth: But if it is the same library, just with all "\bAI" replaced by "GS", does that varant a different name of the library?
12:58<@Alberth>I have to use the right one otherwise it fails. That makes it a different library in my book.
12:58<@Alberth>but GameSuperLib and AISuperLib would be fine imho
12:58<frosch123>it's different like 64bit and 32bit
12:58<frosch123>problem is just bananas
12:59<Zuu>As frosch123 said, I see it more like eg. a linux or windows build of the same library.
13:00<Zuu>For Pathfinder.Road all code in the repository is for the AI target. Then the Makefile contains a sed command to produce the GS version of the library.
13:00<@Alberth>Zuu: pathfinder is even more fun; the filename is exactly the same
13:00<frosch123>you have to put all 32bit libraries into /usr/lib, and all 64bit into /usr/lib64
13:00<@Alberth>from the filename, there is no way to decide what it actually is
13:01<frosch123>if you switch them up, stuff fails to load and prints weird errors
13:01<frosch123>like, invalid elf format
13:01-!-Progman [~progman@p57A1A64E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:01<frosch123>though you don't like elves
13:01<Zuu>Alberth: same with Queue.BinaryHeap, Graph.AyStar and Queue.FibonacciHeep
13:01<Zuu>which were ported before Pathfinder.Road :-)
13:01<@Alberth>sure, but they are labeled .x64_86 or ..x68 or so
13:02<frosch123>Alberth: if bananas would show them on one page, with a "GS" and an "AI" download link next to each other, all would be fine :)
13:02<frosch123>Alberth: the library itself isn't
13:02<frosch123>only the package
13:02<@Alberth>Zuu: without automatic download, nobody will get the right version, ever
13:02<@Alberth>frosch123: here the package is also the same
13:02<Zuu>Which is why I tend to suggest to people to use bananas
13:03<@Alberth>and that's good, but does that mean it has to be impossible to do it manually?
13:03<Zuu>Another reason is that there is no way to get old versions of a library by downloading from the web frontend.
13:03<Zuu>If I would release version 26 now, you would be unable to get version 25 from the bananas website.
13:04<@Alberth>I think it was already established the bananas site needs to be changed
13:06<Zuu>Let say like this. From AI/GS author point of view, it makes sense that the import statement is exactly the same for both AI and GS.
13:07<Zuu>If that were not the case, the NoGo translator for SuperLib would need to find the import statement for Pathfinder.Road and change that one when producing the NoGo version of SuperLib.
13:07<Zuu>So there are reasons why it is like it is.
13:07<Zuu>What you say is that there are also reasons from user perspective to make it more complicated (for AI/GS authors), to make downloading the right lib easier.
13:08<@Alberth>how does import xgs versus import xai make it more difficult?
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13:09<Zuu>"import x" needs no change at all
13:09<@Alberth>use a REPLACEME prefix in the source, and do a s/REPLACEME/AI/ or s/REPLACEME/GS/
13:10<Zuu>All needed currently is "s/\bAI/GS/" to port from AI to GS with respect of API calls
13:10<@Alberth>I can't copy squirrel code anyway, so what's the point to keep import x ?
13:11<Zuu>What do you mean by not being able to copy squirrel code?
13:11<Zuu>So far I have had the idea that manual downloading is too complicated for most users, especially with regard of old libraries. So I have seen that as a lost case and not really even though about that issue with respect of naming.
13:12<@Alberth>you consider it import to keep "import x", but I don't see that, I need to change my code everywhere when I move between AI and GS, so what is different about x ???
13:12<@Alberth>Zuu: ok, fair enough, just say then that superlib cannot be downloaded manually or from the forum
13:12<Zuu>The only change needed when going from AI to GS is to change "AI" to "GS" at the beginning of all words. That is what s/\bAI/GS/ does.
13:13<@Alberth>import AIx will then also change
13:13<Zuu>Yep
13:13<Zuu>It would be possible to rename all libraries to include AI or GS at the front and have it easily scriptable.
13:14<frosch123>don't try to fix the wrong problems :)
13:14*Alberth fails to see it completely now
13:14<frosch123>the only issue is the bananas web frontend
13:14<Zuu>But there are multiple library authors, and I can't rename all libraries.
13:14<Zuu>I expect that I additionally need to get the database rights and rename the bananas entries in the dB as IIRC that is not possible in the frontend.
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13:16<Zuu>Alberth: I see your point, and if we would start from scratch, it could make sense to do like your proposal. But then that would have to be though of when the first AI library was created some 4 years ago or so.
13:16<@Alberth>frosch123: the path finder tar is called Pathfinder.Road-4.tar both in AI and in GS. Donwload both and good luck in finding out which one is Pathfinder.Road-4.tar and Pathfinder.Road-4(1).tar
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13:16<@Alberth>Zuu: ???
13:17<@Alberth>start a new library with a new name????
13:17<@Alberth>problem solved
13:17<frosch123>that won't change if you add a newgrf called "Pathfinder Road" :)
13:17<frosch123>or a scenario
13:17<frosch123>bananas does not include the name into the filename
13:17<frosch123>s/name/type/
13:17<Zuu>I guess what we could do is to change bananas to add the content type into the tar name. That will not break any dependencies but help users who download manually.
13:18<@Alberth>frosch123: so give them a unique name???
13:18<Zuu>eg <name>-<version>-<type>.tar
13:18<@Alberth>Zuu: keep the old one around, nothing breaks. Make a new one, people using it will update the import one time.
13:23<Zuu>So you propose that I should duplicate 14 libraries under a different name?
13:23<frosch123>you cannot :p
13:23<frosch123>you cannot have them with duplicate unique ids
13:23<Zuu>Additionally there are 6 libraries which I have no rights to do it.
13:23<frosch123>you would have to hack the database to change all names
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13:24<frosch123>i guess the best bet is still to make bananas include the type itself
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13:26<Zuu>that would also make the two "Beginner tutorial" possible to distinguish :-)
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13:31<Rubidium>adding the type to the file name is not as trivial as it might sound
13:31<Rubidium>the file name is generated during upload and checked for uniqueness. It is then stored in the database and everything uses that name to go back from the numbered files in the disk on the server
13:32<Rubidium>that includes OpenTTD
13:33<Rubidium>since the name may be 31 bytes and the version 15 bytes, you end up with a filename of 47 (name + version + separator). This is exactly the size of the variable containing the file name in OpenTTD
13:33<Rubidium>adding more to the file name means retroactively changing that filename length constant in already released OpenTTDs
13:34<Zuu>That does indeed sound a bit hard to do :-)
13:36<Rubidium>one *might* choose to have a different file name for files served by the web server, but I'm not sure whether the http download uses the filename variable for resolving that location. If it doesn't, then that might be an avenue to take. Otherwise you're probably royally screwed
13:36<Rubidium>(http download from within OpenTTD)
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r24514 /trunk/src/lang/welsh.txt:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: welsh - 3 changes by kazzie
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14:17<Eddi|zuHause>i have a distinct lack of doctor who...
14:17<Supercheese>I hear he's on first. ;)
14:18<Supercheese>(With the esteemed Dr. What on second)
14:18*Supercheese wonders if anyone will get that joke
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14:24<andythenorth>bonsoir
14:24<Rubidium>lack of doctor who?
14:24<Rubidium>did you miss the last like 6 episodes?
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>i'm missing todays episode, mostly
14:25*Rubidium almost as well
14:25<Rubidium>but apparantly it starts in 10 minutes
14:26-!-Devroush [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:29<Rubidium>so... Eddi|zuHause, thanks for reminding me ;)
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: well there was an episode already last week
14:39<andythenorth>Silicon Valley game?
14:45<frosch123>what firs?
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14:45<frosch123>what players? :)
14:46<frosch123>planetmaker: Zuu: Alberth: Terkhen: ?
14:46<frosch123>(leaving out rb watching dw :p )
14:46<@Alberth>rb is watching tracks :)
14:50<frosch123>is building materials a good choice?
14:50<@Alberth>@calc 8*500
14:50<@DorpsGek>Alberth: 4000
14:51<@Alberth>ugh :)
14:53-!-Kitty [freemadi@tao.quixotic.eu] has joined #openttd
14:53<Kitty>Hello there.
14:54<@Alberth>hi
14:54<Kitty>I am wondering if anyone can provide some guidance. I am struggling to get profitable industries other than oil rig/oil well/oil refinery, or coal mine/powerstation
14:54<Kitty>?
14:56<@Alberth>always have a train loading
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>turn off inflation
14:56<@Alberth>try to move cargo rapidly
14:56<Kitty>is it better to have lots of shorter trains visiting frequently, or a big train filling rarely ?
14:56<@Alberth>don't build long trains
14:57<Kitty>Eddi|zuHause: allready did that
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>the trains should not be too long, because the waiting time will lower your income
14:57<Kitty>how long is a good length? 4 cars? 6 ?
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>try to have the train ready when the next train comes back
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>"good" length heavily depends on the production rate
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>the longest i once had was 15 tiles
14:58<frosch123>a normal train is 4 to 7 tiles
14:58<Kitty>I normally use 5 tiles for most of my train s
14:59<frosch123>a train should not take longer than a month to load
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14:59<Eddi|zuHause>i have 2 tiles for really low production
14:59<@Alberth>also depends on the engine, early in the game you want shorter trains due to limited poer of the engines
14:59<@Alberth>*power
14:59<andythenorth>frosch123: building materials is quite interesting
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15:00<Kitty>interesting
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15:03<Kitty>It's been ages since I played, and the display chain thing is a really nice new feature
15:04<@Alberth>it needs improvement :)
15:04<andythenorth>what's the url to the compile farm?
15:04<andythenorth>I need an older nightly
15:05<@Alberth>main page, at the top somewhere
15:06*andythenorth can't see it
15:06<frosch123>andythenorth: http://ftp.snt.utwente.nl/pub/games/openttd/binaries/nightlies/trunk/r24502/index.html
15:06<andythenorth>awesome thanks
15:06<frosch123>though might not be the best mirror for you
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15:08<Kitty>also, is ther an AI that can actually play ?
15:08<@Alberth>sure, download one from the ingame content
15:09<Kitty>which ones actually work? I have choochoo trains or sum such, that builds some track, goes bank rupt, and then gets bought out by me...
15:10<@Alberth>http://wiki.openttd.org/Comparison_of_AIs
15:10<@Alberth>I don't know, I never bother about having an AI
15:13<Kitty>hmm, that was a waste of 5 million. trying to build an oil rig...
15:15<frosch123>Kitty: usually admiral, simpleai and nocab are good choices
15:17<andythenorth>Zuu: Terkhen planetmaker Silicon Valley?
15:17<andythenorth>we're on the nightly server
15:17<andythenorth>V453000 ?
15:17<andythenorth>Hirundo ?
15:17<Zuu>Nice, I'll come in a minute.
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15:22<Kitty>can anyone suggest good junction designs for 3 way junctions with 4 tracks ?
15:23<@Alberth>the wiki has a few, else look at openttdcoop.org
15:23<@Alberth>I have never build anything that complicated
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15:31<Zuu>Kitty: I tend to build organically, and solve the problems as they come rather than ending up in a symetrical solution.
15:33<@Terkhen>andythenorth: I'll be away for the day
15:33<@Terkhen>see you tomorrow :)
15:34<andythenorth>k
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15:46<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: but I saw last week's episode and Pond's life
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18:10<Wolf01>'night all
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18:21<Kylie>so my road coal trucks - looks like it is time for them to go. they are only making $10,000 a year (24100 - 3630 - 10310 = ~ 10,000) while my trains thaat connect to almost the same coal stations are making $110,000 a year
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18:40<Kitty>Did the thing to allow you to disable an airport make it into a mainstream release ?
18:41<@planetmaker>nope
18:44<Supercheese>"Close airport" is in trunk...
18:44<Kitty>what does that mean to a lay person ?
18:44<Supercheese>As of the most recent nightly, the function "close airport" is available
18:44<Supercheese>Meaning no planes will lane at that airport until reopened
18:45<Supercheese>land*
18:46<Supercheese>well, as of a while ago, but available in the most recent nightly
18:46<@planetmaker>Supercheese, oh, it is? ok :-)
18:46<@planetmaker>I guess I play too little with airports
18:46<Supercheese>I'm running r24514 and it's there :)
18:46<@planetmaker>then it was one of the things from the last big assortment of small patches, which is also in 1.2 then
18:50<FLHerne>Ah, finally :-)
18:50<FLHerne>I never understood why that wasn't added two years ago :P
18:55<Supercheese>Hm, seems the discussion of adding more frames to 4x zoom level is getting a bit out of hand...
18:56<Supercheese>It would be better for animation purposes, but seems untenable from a code perspective
18:56<@planetmaker>some people don't take "no" as an answer. And accuse you of being arrogant when giving "no" as an answer. Really sad
18:57<Supercheese>Alas...
18:59<FLHerne>Well, it is a valid problem...
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19:14<@planetmaker>FLHerne, yes, possibly it is. But that doesn't change the facts
19:17<@planetmaker>and the single sad fact is - again! - that personalities and animosities play the far bigger role than the real subject
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19:17<@planetmaker>those people should select their own devs to develop the game for them which give them always pampered answers
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19:18-!-ServerMode/#openttd [+vov glx Belugas Belugas] by graviton.oftc.net
19:18<@planetmaker>or a "yes, of course we will. And then show a screenshot. Of a patch which might heavily modified make it into OpenTTD in 10 years". Similar to certain NewGRF devs which actually complain about these kind of answers which are just brief
19:19<@planetmaker>and I should also just shut up and go to bed. Good night
19:19<FLHerne>Night
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19:29<Kitty>is there an easy way to replace a group of trains ?
19:31<@planetmaker>http://wiki.openttd.org/Autoreplace
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19:35<Kitty>oh wow, that makes things easier
19:35<Kitty>how long has that been in the feature list ?
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19:35<Supercheese>Years
19:35<Kitty>Wish I had known about it
19:36<Supercheese>It is indeed an immensely helpful feature
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21:43<Kylie>question
21:43<Kylie>in subsidies
21:43<Kylie>do feeder services count
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---Logclosed Sun Sep 09 00:00:45 2012