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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-09-09

---Logopened Sun Sep 09 00:00:45 2012
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02:18<@Terkhen>good morning
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03:01<@Terkhen>good morning Alberth
03:01<@Alberth>hi, early as always :)
03:02<@Terkhen>sadly, my natural alarm clock still wakes me up at 8 in weekends :P
03:03<@Terkhen>even when I had nearly no sleep
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05:45<@Alberth>moin andy
05:46<Zuu>good morning Alberth + andythenorth
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05:52*andythenorth was wondering how a GS could be bundled with grf presets
05:52<andythenorth>for base costs etc
05:52<andythenorth> Silicon Valley or NoCarGoal games usually have to be restarted a few times due to bad costs
05:53<andythenorth>is new scenario format best solution to that?
05:55<@Alberth>Isn't it the same kind of problem of using a new GRF and restarting because you forgot something?
05:55<@Alberth>Also, different people want different challenges, so some experimentation will happen anyway
05:56<@Alberth>ie SP, "build 5 toy factories in 10 years", does n't seem realistic at all :p
05:57<andythenorth>it's quite a faff though
05:58<andythenorth>I'm wondering if FIRS could normalise industry costs for example
05:58<andythenorth>to make it easier for GS
05:58<andythenorth>costs are a mess anyway tbh
05:59<andythenorth>for example rebalancing HEQS against default vehicles wouldn't work, because default vehicles have flawed costs
05:59*andythenorth is thinking aloud
05:59<@Alberth>I am not sure changing industry costs solves anything
05:59<@Alberth>what are you trying to solve exactly?
06:00<@Alberth>ie alternatively, make a GS for 1 new industry instead of 3
06:00<andythenorth>(1) it would be nice if setting up GS was less trial and error
06:00<@Alberth>is that less fun, or unwanted, or ???
06:01<andythenorth>(2) I plan to rebalance costs in some of my grfs, but I think costs are a bit of a mess generally
06:01<andythenorth>it would be interesting if a GS could set the default values of grf parameters
06:02<@Alberth>2 is pretty simple I think. Make sure the set is consistent with itself, and perhaps some 'neighbour' sets
06:02<andythenorth>neighbour sets are misleading :P
06:02<andythenorth>that's how I got it wrong :)
06:03<@Alberth>selecting the right neighbours is the tricky part :p perhaps you didn't play neighboursAreImportant enough :)
06:03<@Alberth>1 is more about us having little clue how much money you can make in say 10 years
06:04<@Alberth>and/or being unfamiliar with costs of used grfs
06:06<@Alberth>at least, I never even bothered to fund industries at any scale in my games. If I did, it was late in the game, where costs are irrelevant.
06:06<andythenorth>vehicles lack the equivalent of "Mario in Standard Kart"
06:06<andythenorth>Mario is the most balanced character in MK
06:07<andythenorth>and the standard kart the most balanced
06:07*Alberth has never played mario ;)
06:07<andythenorth>it would be nice to have a reference vehicle
06:08<@Alberth>make one? a newgrf recommendation-like wiki page
06:09<@Alberth>but getting some form of agreement may be difficult
06:10<andythenorth>+1 :)
06:10*andythenorth agrees :P
06:10<@Alberth>you'd have to compare various vehicle sets in some way
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06:11<andythenorth>essentially the measure is net profit per ton-mile
06:11<andythenorth>but there are so many factors :P
06:11*Alberth ponders about the costs of opengfx+
06:11<andythenorth>and it's only a game :P
06:13<andythenorth>essentially all I really care about is that there is a distortion favouring trains
06:13<andythenorth>even over relatively short distances
06:13*Alberth nods
06:14<andythenorth>it's less interesting
06:14<@Alberth>how did you obtain truck costs?
06:14<andythenorth>balanced against eGRVTS approximately
06:14<@Alberth>(assuming you mean trucks mostly and not ships)
06:15<andythenorth>ships have same issues currently
06:15<@Alberth>perhaps balance them against trains?
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06:15<andythenorth>HEQS is a distorted comparison, because the trucks are slow
06:15<andythenorth>in RL mining trucks are *very* expensive to operate over long distances
06:15<andythenorth>the tyres explode :P
06:16<andythenorth>but also in RL, freight train average speed was something like 30mph in the 1960s, not 100mph :P
06:16<@Alberth>no need for dynamite here,just drive the trucks around in the mine :p
06:17<@Alberth>but RL is non-relevant anyway :p
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06:21*Rubidium gets his bike tire repair set to fill this little hole:
06:21<Rubidium>luckily it's easily found
06:21<andythenorth>no need to put it in water
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06:26<andythenorth>Rubidium: water testing the tyre
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06:26<Rubidium>that tyre is still okay; I see no bubbles
06:27<andythenorth>new disaster
06:27<andythenorth>road falls into river
06:27<andythenorth>rivers are under-loved in the game :(
06:27<Rubidium>it's called flooding
06:27<andythenorth>we should make them....interesting
06:27<andythenorth>changing course?
06:28<Rubidium>to don't care about any OpenTTD issue ;)
06:29<Rubidium>silence is golden, especially in the suggestions threads
06:30<Rubidium>mostly because each time you say no, with whatever reasoning, you're declared arrogant and so forth
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06:50<andythenorth>I *am* arrogant :P
06:52<frosch123>yay, i managed to forget that i did not know gdb hotkeys
06:52<frosch123>so my fingers could take over again
06:53<frosch123>andythenorth: just move to simuscape :p
06:57<Zuu>Rubidium: turn that 'no' to 'maybe in the future' or 'the future will tell' :-p
06:58<andythenorth>"I'll add it to the backlog"
06:59<Rubidium>Zuu: but then the next question is: "is it done yet"?
06:59<frosch123>just maintain a global todo list
06:59<Zuu>and the response to that is not 'no', but 'maybe in the future' :-p
06:59<frosch123>then you can link them to a list of 200 things :)
07:00<Rubidium>that's called the issue tracker
07:02<frosch123>so the answer should be "put it on the list"
07:02<@Alberth>that happens automagically already
07:08<andythenorth>where's newgrf smoke on that list :P
07:08<frosch123>ah, that's the reason it's not done yet
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07:28<andythenorth>in co-opetive GS, would it be interesting if different players had different vehicles?
07:28*andythenorth has ideas
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07:31<andythenorth>shame we can't have a private bananas for test grfs
07:31<andythenorth>such as have openttd be a client for coop bundles server
07:31<frosch123>just the the min version to nightly
07:37<andythenorth>the main issue is savegame breakage
07:37<Hirundo>How does that new supplies algorithm work? *curious*
07:38<@Alberth>different players different vehicle sets is not something specific for GS imho
07:38<andythenorth>deliver n tonnes of supplies, get a boost for 3 months
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07:42<@Alberth>andy: new test-victim^H^H^H^H^H^Hplayer !
07:44<andythenorth>I think Yexo finished the patch for all primaries
07:44<andythenorth>however the industry window text needs to change :)
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07:47<andythenorth>I would look at it, but I'm clearing the ground floor of my house for building work
07:48<andythenorth>and it takes so long to figure out the text stack :)
07:48<andythenorth>and push everything around into the correct size variables
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08:30<FLHerne>andythenorth: You fixed the supplies? :-)
08:35<@Alberth>he changed it :)
08:53<FLHerne>From the brief description, it would appear to be for the better :-)
08:54<frosch123>hmm, how to name my smurf account on the forums?
08:56<frosch123>maybe "fritz"
08:56<frosch123>"fred" is already taken
09:01<@Alberth>fred2 :)
09:01<frosch123>nah, if we all name us fred, it becomes too obvious
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09:16<andythenorth>frosch123: andythesouth?
09:18<frosch123>well, maybe not posting is still the easiest solution
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09:43<Dans34>anyone know how i can stop a company from being removed , even if i have the option set in the config?
09:43<Dans34>*stop a specific company
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11:01<andythenorth>frosch123: for a short Silicon Valley game, how about increasing all primary industry production at map gen?
11:01<frosch123>just play a different gs :p
11:02<frosch123>or transport pax at start
11:02<frosch123>yesterday we started really stupid
11:02<andythenorth>we should have transported pax
11:02<andythenorth>and built a rail spine route
11:02<andythenorth>with lots of differerent cargos on it
11:02<andythenorth>instead of an expensive elrail spaghetti network :D
11:03<andythenorth>anyway, I might be close to having a patched FIRS supplies grf for testing, just sorting out industry window text
11:03<andythenorth>maybe another game this evening? :)
11:03<Snail>hi all
11:03<andythenorth>lo Snail
11:03<frosch123>we can also play nocargoal
11:03<andythenorth>that too
11:03<frosch123>that can be adjusted for shorter games :)
11:04<andythenorth>might be a better test of supplies
11:04<frosch123>but silicon is pointless for too short games
11:04<andythenorth>it's nice how we've played it
11:04<andythenorth>I think it's pretty well finished :)
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11:04<andythenorth>~2 hrs is good
11:06<Snail>I have a question for the developers... would it be possible to add a way to count the vehicles from the last one towards the engine in RandomAction2 type 84?
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11:07<frosch123>what is the german translation of "Goal" in gs context? :p
11:07<frosch123>Snail: yes, it is possible
11:07<frosch123>iirc it was excluded back then because it was hard for ttdp
11:07<Snail>oh, I see
11:07<frosch123>but for ottd forward/backward makes no difference
11:08<Snail>sounds great. Could we add it? It would be very useful for push-pull trains (and other stuff too)
11:09<Dans34>is it posible for a server admin to give cash to a company ?
11:09<frosch123>Dans34: you can save the game, load it as singleplayer, use the cheats, and load it again in multiplayer
11:11<Hirundo>I'd be more in favor of making random bits available via var 61, though ofc one does not exclude the other
11:12<frosch123>yeah, i think it was only forgotten for var 61 :)
11:12<frosch123>it needs special handling, and instead of adding it, we only documented that it does not work :p
11:12<Dans34>thanks frosch123
11:12<Hirundo>Yes, currently var61 just calls VehicleGetVariable, IIRC
11:14<Snail>Hirundo: that would be nice, however adding the counting from the last vehicle in RandomAction2 would be useful too
11:14<Snail>it would allow to write symmetrical code :)
11:20<Hirundo>While at it, 'count forward from last vehicle in vehid chain' (complement to 0x0C) should be added also
11:21<andythenorth>this new supplies mechanic is *much* harder to explain
11:21<andythenorth>but anyway, I have it showing in industry window text
11:21<Hirundo>I'm not sure if randomact2 bits 4-5 were reserved for any specific purpose?
11:22<FLHerne>andythenorth: What exactly is the new mechanic? :P
11:22<Snail>Hirundo: what does the "in vehid chain" mean exactly? will it only count the vehicles with the same ID as the current one, skipping the others?
11:22<andythenorth>deliver 30t over a 3 month period for a 2x production boost
11:23<@Alberth>andythenorth: don't explain it,let users find out by themselves :)
11:23<andythenorth>deliver 120t over a 3 month period for a 4x production boost
11:23<andythenorth>boost lasts 3 months
11:23<andythenorth>^ yexo's patch and mine together
11:23<andythenorth>should compile ok
11:23<Hirundo>Snail: It looks at the chain of consecutive vehicles with the same ID (see vehicle var 41 also)
11:23<andythenorth>no translation support (don't translate, it's unfinished) :P
11:27<frosch123> <- Hirundo: no specific purpose
11:31<frosch123>oh, wow
11:32<frosch123>apparently i never typed "deutschland" into youtube before
11:32<frosch123>should i sue them because of the search suggestions? :)
11:33<@Alberth>depends on how offended you are :)
11:34<frosch123>i am just surprised, usually they filter nazi stuff
11:34<frosch123>maybe its because of my english locale
11:34<frosch123>sometimes stuff is only filter for german locals
11:35<Hirundo>Using bit 5 might make most sense, to allow future extension of the 'count' to 0-31 bits (though I doubt there is a use-case for that)
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11:36<@Alberth>frosch123: my goal does not look good :(
11:37<Snail>Hirundo: what would extending it to 0-31 bits allow us to do? add more features?
11:37<frosch123>Alberth: you mean too hard?
11:38<Hirundo>err, it should be 5 bits, values 0-31
11:38<frosch123>the explicit value only makes sense for small numbers
11:38<frosch123>everything else can use reg 100
11:38<frosch123>but using bit 5 before 4 is still better :)
11:39<frosch123>just keep bits with same meaning consecutive
11:39<@Alberth>after 12 years I make about 3,000,000 a year, so I can built a fountain every 3 years or so. But 700,000 plastic is not something I see happening
11:39<frosch123>ah, you are playing with a primary cargo
11:40<frosch123>well, you have to use a basecost mod :)
11:40<@Alberth>the second industry is not really relevant imho
11:40<frosch123>the readme suggests to set raw build cost to 1/64 or so
11:40<frosch123>oh, that way
11:40<@Alberth>my problem is more the production than the funding cost
11:40<frosch123>yeah, i never tested raw industries
11:41<frosch123>maybe i should remove that :p
11:41<frosch123>might not make a lot of sense
11:41<andythenorth>might for masochists :P
11:41<frosch123>but anyway, you can still set it to 20 industries, with a production of 2000 in total
11:42<@Alberth>yeah, I should have lowered the requirements
11:43<andythenorth>deliver supplies :P
11:43<frosch123>the readme still needs lots of suggestions
11:43<@Alberth>does firs work in toyland? :)
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11:43<frosch123>but i should at least remove the "both types" option
11:43<frosch123>that does really not make any sense :)
11:44<@Alberth>hmm, I am not even allowed to read the readme file :p
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11:51*andythenorth wonders if openttd should gain a var for base industry prod level
11:52<FLHerne>andythenorth: Late reply: That ought to help me dispose of those 100k units of supplies more easily :D
11:52<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r24515 /trunk/src/game/game_text.cpp: -Fix: GStexts were compied incompletely when containing certain string codes.
11:55<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r24516 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Add: [GS] Support ##plural pragma in GS lang files.
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12:03<@Alberth>frosch123: how often do you check number of industries?
12:03<andythenorth>if I had
12:03<andythenorth>a pony
12:03<frosch123>every 5 days or so
12:04<@Alberth>it does not seem to pick up my 2nd fountain
12:04<andythenorth>this probly needs to indicate amount of supplies delivered too
12:04<andythenorth>but we could play test for that later :P
12:05<frosch123>Alberth: is it named after the town?
12:05<@Alberth>yep, and the local authority of the land information is correct
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12:05<andythenorth>if I had control of that industry window, it could be made nicer
12:06<andythenorth>"Cargo waiting to be processed" is redundant
12:06<andythenorth>as is the amount of FMSP waiting
12:07<frosch123>you checked the north tile with the landinfo window?
12:08<@Alberth>all 3 tiles :) the left one is new btw
12:08<frosch123>no idea then :(
12:09<frosch123>would need debugging
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12:11<andythenorth>does GS have any way to measure average vehicle speed on a route? Or a proxy for that?
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12:11<frosch123>not that easy
12:11<frosch123>you can access vehicles, and i believe also orders
12:11<frosch123>but esp. with transfers you are likele screwed
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12:12<frosch123>i guess dtnames.grf is not important
12:12<Kylie>how do i move minimps
12:12<frosch123>right mouse button?
12:12<Kylie>like industry minimap
12:12<frosch123>not sure whether that is the answer to your question :)
12:12<Kylie>it works
12:13<andythenorth>average travel time of a cargo packet between generation and acceptance?
12:13<@Alberth>apparently it is :)
12:13<frosch123>Kylie: you can also inverse the scrolling direction in advanced settings, whatever suits you more
12:13<@Alberth>andythenorth: aka age of the cargo ;)
12:14<frosch123>age of cargo would include the vehicle cargo aging factor
12:14<frosch123>Alberth: it says 2/2 for me :p
12:15<andythenorth>cargo aging might be valid
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12:15<frosch123>did the gs maybe crash at your site?
12:15<andythenorth>thinking of a GS based on travel times
12:15<andythenorth>not sure how it would work yet
12:15<frosch123>is the remaining time still updated?
12:15<@Alberth>remaining time seems ok
12:16<frosch123>what version are you using?
12:16<@Alberth>my machine crashed, and I had to reload a save game, but that should not be a problem
12:17<@Alberth>remaining time is updated
12:19<frosch123>well, if i remove the industry with magic bulldozer it reverts to 1/2
12:19<@Alberth>last quarter of total moved does not take the 2nd industry into account
12:19<frosch123>rebuilding in same spots goes to 2/2 again
12:19<frosch123>you can check the debug console for that
12:20<frosch123>it should list the industries with amount > 0
12:21<@Alberth>deleting and rebuilding fixes the problem with cheat money :p
12:21<@Alberth>load of the save game also fixes it
12:23<@Alberth> earlier in the game
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12:26<@Alberth>seems to work correctly
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12:26<frosch123>did you fund a town or something like that? :p
12:27<frosch123>the gs has a cache from industries to town
12:27<frosch123>let's see whether that one fails
12:27<@Alberth>that save game is broken in the sense that the dest station of the plastic is not reachable
12:28<frosch123>hmm, i have an indea
12:28<frosch123>i think if you fund the industry within the 5 day period after another industry closed
12:28<frosch123>it does not detect that a industry was removed
12:28<frosch123>and does not update the industry->town cache
12:29<@Alberth>lol :)
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12:31<frosch123>yeah, that reproduces the effect :)
12:31<frosch123>so, maybe i should rather cache the location to town mapping
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12:41<andythenorth>maybe primary boost should be per quarter
12:41<andythenorth>e.g. jan-mar, apr-july etc
12:41<andythenorth>is that easier to explain?
12:41<frosch123>it was easier for silicon :p
12:42<andythenorth>"For a production boost in Apr, May and June, deliver 30t (2x) or 120t (4x) of supplies by Mar 31"
12:42<andythenorth>the actual code doesn't work that way afaict
12:42<andythenorth>think it's a moving average
12:43<andythenorth>moving averages are insanely hard to explain
12:43<@Alberth>don't try to explain it exactly
12:43<andythenorth>if I don't, players just invent and spread lies :P
12:43<andythenorth>does that matter?
12:44<@Alberth>if in doubt, post the code :p
12:44<@Alberth>I would not be worried about that, but that's me :)
12:44<frosch123> <- haha, the wording "Nahrungsmittel" makes it even more weird :p
12:44<andythenorth>I don't actually understand the code :)
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12:45<@Alberth>andythenorth: you don't have to ;)
12:45<andythenorth>test it later, NoCarGoal, short game, start around 2009, fast everything
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12:50<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: planetmaker: <- i am pondering to translate "valley" als "Paradies". would that work, or only make it more awkward? :p
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12:58<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: you should remove the "Deppenleerzeichen" Goldmedaille, etc.
12:59<frosch123>ok :)
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>same thing applies to whatever you choose for -valley... i don't really have a good idea for that, unfortunately
13:02<frosch123>well, then it stays Valley
13:02<frosch123>i don't change the gs name either :)
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13:05<Eddi|zuHause>could just do "{CARGO}-Tal" then
13:06<frosch123>would you recognize "Silizium-Tal"?
13:06<Eddi|zuHause>well, you still have the GS name :)
13:06<Rubidium>isn't that a valley with sand?
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13:07<frosch123>it's no slicon-di-oxid-valley
13:07<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: that would be a Silizium-Oxid valley
13:08<frosch123>hmm, ok, google gives several hits for "Silizium-Tal" :p
13:08<frosch123>i don't like it nevertheless :p
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>don't translate silicon valley, but "Silizium" won't likely be a real cargo in the game
13:10<frosch123>ok, made it {CARGO_LIST}-Tal
13:10<Rubidium>Silicon Woods ;)
13:10<Rubidium>didn't know that one, do you?
13:10<Eddi|zuHause>"Firmenspezifisch" sounds strange
13:12<frosch123>Rubidium: now i do :p
13:12<Eddi|zuHause>are there "Wood Woods"?
13:13<frosch123>what wood would ...
13:14<frosch123>you are missing {P} stuff, aren't you?
13:15*Alberth adds some Ps
13:15<frosch123>it's also new in english, and in ottd trunk :p
13:16<@Alberth>hmm, that raises the question what P to use :p
13:18<@Alberth> says we have no plurals :p
13:19<frosch123>ottd says "0"
13:19<frosch123>special term for "one", rest the same
13:19<frosch123>STR_QUANTITY_GOODS :{COMMA} krat{P "" ten} goederen
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13:20<@Alberth>yeah, seems the best choice
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13:25<@Alberth>frosch123: file updated
13:25<@Alberth>time for dinner
13:26<Eddi|zuHause>dinner for one?
13:31<andythenorth>that should be the name of a GS
13:31<andythenorth>ha ha
13:31*andythenorth just had an idea
13:32<andythenorth>town A wants a lot of cargo x delivered
13:32<andythenorth>but towns B-Z don't want that cargo passing through
13:32<andythenorth>and will fine you if you do transport too much through their territory
13:32<frosch123>build a track from town a to b, every year the gs bulldozes the track, then you have to rebuild it. the same every year for 50 years?
13:34<andythenorth>GS floods part of your map :P
13:34-!-Devroush [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:35<andythenorth>"Little Dutch Boy" scenario
13:35<andythenorth>your entire map is below sea level
13:35<andythenorth>deliver building materials to towns and they'll raise the land
13:35<andythenorth>terraforming is disabled for player companies
13:39*andythenorth tries to think up something involving smuggling
13:40<andythenorth>probably using warplane-bomb disaster as punishment
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13:41<frosch123>hmm, albert's lang file is rejected by ottd
13:41<frosch123>and i don't see where
13:42<Rubidium>not utf8?
13:42<frosch123> <- where do those strings differ in commands?
13:42<frosch123>it complains about WHITE
13:42<frosch123>dbg: [script] dutch:8: warning: STR_NUM_INDUSTRIES: template string and language string have a different # of commands
13:42<frosch123>dbg: [script] dutch:8: warning: STR_NUM_INDUSTRIES: command 'WHITE' exists in template file but not in language file
13:43<frosch123>oh, there is some {P in the middle
13:44<frosch123>works now
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13:44<Rubidium>that translation looks kinda horrid
13:45<Rubidium>but then I always have that feeling with stuff translated to Dutch
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r24517 /trunk/src/lang/czech.txt:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: czech - 23 changes by Eskymak
13:45<frosch123>same for german :)
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14:05<andythenorth>connect A-B (opposite sides of map)
14:05<andythenorth>deliver n amount of cargo to each
14:05<andythenorth>simple GS
14:15<@Alberth>connecting two industries with each other, and deliver to both?
14:17<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: <-- not sure if that sketch is even known to english people
14:17<andythenorth>Alberth: something like that
14:18<andythenorth>probably cities though
14:18<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I think you posted that before :)
14:18<Eddi|zuHause>i'm fairly sure i did :p
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: depending on your knowledge of german, you might also find this funny :)
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14:22<andythenorth>my german is marginally worse than my C++ :)
14:22<andythenorth>so frosch123 Alberth Hirundo Zuu planetmaker Terkhen et al - NoCarGoal game, test with FIRS nightly?
14:22<andythenorth>maybe FISH nightly too?
14:22<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: MP? :)
14:23<Eddi|zuHause>i don't usually do MP
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14:25<frosch123>andythenorth: prepare a game
14:25<andythenorth>I need a build of FIRS
14:25<frosch123>you can't build it yourself? :p
14:25<andythenorth>k I'll set some stuff up
14:25<andythenorth>the makefile spins
14:25<andythenorth>I can build but only with grfcodec
14:25<andythenorth>and nml-nfo
14:25<andythenorth>the makefile just loops and uses up my battery
14:26<Zuu>andythenorth: Not at the moment. Working on a patch.
14:26<@Alberth>have fun andy
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14:29<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: your buy menu patch isn't accepted yet is it? :)
14:29<andythenorth>FISH looks horrible currently :)
14:29<Eddi|zuHause>not that i know of
14:31<frosch123>damn, there is no testcase for {INDUSTRY} with genders :(
14:32<frosch123>and i suspect it fails :p
14:32<frosch123>(resp. the testcase which exists is not triggerable with default industries)
14:32<Eddi|zuHause>in which context?
14:32<Eddi|zuHause>it works fine in news messages
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14:38<frosch123>there is no such case
14:38<frosch123>STR_NEWS_INDUSTRY_PRODUCTION_INCREASE_GENERAL :{BIG_FONT}{BLACK}{INDUSTRY} {G 0 erhöht erhöht erhöht erhöhen} die Produktion!
14:38<frosch123>that's the only testcase
14:38<frosch123>but it is not triggered for default industries
14:39<frosch123>because only oil wells are plural, and they have a separate text
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>the construction message? "<industry> opens at <X>"
14:39<frosch123>that is not {INDUSTRY}, but <industry-type>
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14:39<frosch123>hmm, i should just add a fake-testcase :o
14:42<frosch123>yeah, it fails
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14:51<andythenorth>frosch123: FIRS here, I'll make the game next
14:51<andythenorth>NoCarGoal? Or Silicon Valley?
14:52<Supercheese>New supply algorithm?
14:52<frosch123>there is a silly __MACOSX folder in your zip :p
14:53<andythenorth>I know :(
14:53<andythenorth>Supercheese: yes
14:53<Supercheese>Yexo's from the devzone, yes?
14:53<andythenorth>+ industry text from me
14:53<andythenorth>how do I make ships cheap?
14:53<Supercheese>that's the r2873M?
14:53<frosch123>add basecost mod newgrf
14:54<frosch123>you have to set all parameters though
14:54<frosch123>the default are screwed up :p
14:57<Rubidium>so, is there a game starting 'soon'?
14:57<frosch123>andy is preparing a ncg
14:57<frosch123>so, i think so
14:58<frosch123>since the start is usually slow, it seems unwise to wait for more players :)
14:58<andythenorth>frosch123: how long / how much cargo?
14:58<andythenorth>quite a lot?
14:58<frosch123>7 years
14:58<frosch123>else it's too long
14:58<andythenorth>25k is not enough
14:59<frosch123>last time we had 40k milk in years
14:59<frosch123>20k goods
14:59<frosch123>*in 9 years
15:02<andythenorth>takes a while to get a good map
15:03<frosch123>also disable breakdowns
15:03<Rubidium>@base 26 10 goodmap
15:03<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 5239016509
15:03<frosch123>else V will flame us again, in case he joins
15:04<frosch123>though we can also change that in game
15:04<Rubidium>@base 25 10 goodmap
15:04<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: Error: Invalid <number> for base 25: goodmap
15:04<Supercheese>People play with breakdowns enabled??
15:04<frosch123>Supercheese: people who never play but rather run testgames always have completely messed up settings
15:04<Rubidium>people even played 0.3.5 for fun
15:04<Rubidium>and that's a shock
15:04<frosch123>whenever i want to play a real game i first have to revisit all settings
15:04<Rubidium>as so many things you take for granted don't work
15:05<Rubidium>what rev of OpenTTD are we going to use?
15:06<frosch123>andythenorth: just take whatever map :)
15:06<frosch123>don't wait for easy cargos :p
15:06<andythenorth>I need one that is a test of supplies :P
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15:11<frosch123>bah newgrf mismatch
15:11<frosch123>ah, i forgot rescan
15:11<andythenorth>Rubidium: you'll need patched FIRS posted above
15:12<Rubidium>oh... I though that was a mature version ;)
15:14<Rubidium>where do I get that aviators anniversary set?
15:14<frosch123>that should be bananas
15:15<Rubidium>hmm... ipv6 timeout
15:15<frosch123>yeah, tb said yesterday he would fix it today
15:16<TrueBrain>but I cant find it :(
15:17<TrueBrain>ottd_content runs on IPv6, it is routed .. it should 'just work'
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15:19<Bad_Brett>Hey... Can someone explain why these coast tiles aren't included in OpenTTD?
15:19<Supercheese>Don't forget the TTD music, a game is never complete without it ;)
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15:22<Supercheese>Hah, random generator created a dairy straddling a river
15:22<Supercheese>Just float the milk on barges
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15:25<FLHerne>Bad_Brett: Apparently it would break old savegames :P
15:26<FLHerne>IIRC, the argument was that it would look inconsistent for water to flow down those gaps and not go somewhere at the other end, and if it did flow out the far end it might flood areas that were previously non-flooded. Or something. ;-)
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15:33<Bad_Brett>FLHerne: Thanks!
15:37<FLHerne>Bad_Brett: Personally, I think that the inconsistency of water not flowing out of those channels would be less ugly (or at least occur less frequently) than the current situation of them staying dry... ;-)
15:43<Bad_Brett>I agree. Such inconsistencies don't bother me at all. But I guess they want to keep the game 100% glitch-free. Too bad that I can't use the sprites I made, though.
15:53<Supercheese>You can code them as object tiles
15:53<Supercheese>So they don't go completely to waste
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15:56<Bad_Brett>Supercheese: Good idea. I didn't realise you could do that. Thanks!
15:56<Supercheese>You're welcome :)
15:56<@Terkhen>good night
15:58<Supercheese>btw, Eddi' had a good idea for smoother vehicle movement, at least in theory
15:58<Supercheese>I don't know what variable this "subspeed" is in NML, though
15:59<FLHerne>Doesn't exist yet? :P
15:59<Supercheese>Perhaps, although his post sure made it seem like it existed
15:59<Supercheese>oh, perhaps you meant not in NML
16:00<Supercheese>yes, I expect it isn't a named variable there
16:00-!-Frankr [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:01<Supercheese>What kind of a "var[0x__, 0, 0x__]" would it be, to be more specific
16:01<Supercheese>(as I don't really understand accessing non-named variables in NML too well)
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16:02*FLHerne rereads the thread, and is no longer convinced either way :P
16:03<Eddi|zuHause>i thought i made it clear that i have not checked whether it exists or no
16:03-!-valhallasw [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:03<Supercheese>Ah, I see
16:04<Supercheese>Lemme inspect then
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>"36 B Fractional part of the current speed" <-- that might be it
16:07<Supercheese>yes, perhaps
16:07<Supercheese>1A, 1C, 1E, the X,Y, and Z locations were already mentioned, yes?
16:07<Supercheese>I can't seem to find the post, but I recall a dev pointing them out
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that was what said by Terkhen, i believe. but it probably did not make the split of the topic
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>note that 80 is added to these numbers, so it will be 9A, 9C and 9E. and B6 for the subspeed
16:10<Supercheese>There it is, 'twas Hirundo, and they're
16:10<Supercheese>yeah, 9A as was said
16:10<Supercheese>The 80 coming from the vehicle array... size, I suppose?
16:11<Supercheese>depth? whatever
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16:11<Bad_Brett>I can't say I understand what you're talking about, but I appreciate it :)
16:11<Supercheese>TBH, I don't fully understand either :P
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>src/newgrf_engine.cpp:758: case 0x36: return v->subspeed;
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>looks like it's the right value
16:11<Supercheese>I'll have to make a test grf then
16:12<Supercheese>do I add 80 to the 36?
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>B6 i said above
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>but don't give anything to my head-calculation skills :)
16:12<Supercheese>right, missed that
16:12<Supercheese>the calculator agrees
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>i did once spot an error in the professor's slides, where his calculation said "A1 + 01 = A2", but "+" meant bitwise XOR in this context, so it should be "= A0"
16:15<Supercheese>thank heavens for NML templates
16:15<Hirundo>Supercheese: If there's any non-named variable you'd like to use in NML, feel free to request as adding variables is really trivial
16:15<Supercheese>Well, I'm fairly certain this is the first time anyone's thought to use this variable, no?
16:16<Hirundo>Quite possibly, yes
16:16<Supercheese>but I'll do that, if things pan out :)
16:16<Hirundo>There are like 50 or so variables on the page you linked, most are completely useless for NewGRFs
16:17<Hirundo>They only get added once someone (like you) finds a use-case
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>hey, _I_ found the use case :)
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>(with some inspiration from Rubidium)
16:19<Supercheese>Have yet to see if it works, of course
16:19<Supercheese>anyhow, place to put such requests?
16:19-!-valhalla1w [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds right, yes
16:20-!-drac_boy [] has left #openttd [I'm done being in this room!]
16:22<Hirundo>Supercheese: Yes
16:23<Bad_Brett>If I understand this correctly... Does the vehicle move when speed in km/h + timer reaches 255?
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16:29<Eddi|zuHause>that doesn't sound quite right
16:29<Bad_Brett>Haha. Ok, I'll read your post again. :)
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>i mean: it could mean what it really, is, but it is ambiguous enough that i don't quite want to say "yes"
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16:33<Supercheese>Let's* see if this compiles
16:33<Supercheese>damn enter key and apostrophe
16:33<Supercheese>so close to each other
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i do that quite frequently as well :)
16:33<Supercheese>whoops, need to add more bluespace to sprites
16:34<Supercheese>up to... looks like 12 pixels
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>just flood-fill all white space and you should have enough blue :)
16:34<Bad_Brett>I had a keyboard where they had moved ' to a different spot... I guess they had a good reason :)
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>yes, the #/' key used to be next to backspace on some older keyboards
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>has the drawback that backspace is a normal sized key
16:36<NGC3982>Evening, gents.
16:38<Bad_Brett>I had it below enter, next to shift... worked pretty well
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16:42<Supercheese>Ooh, successful compile
16:42<Supercheese>now to see if it works
16:44<Supercheese>Hmmm, hard to tell
16:44<Supercheese>Everything looks the same so far
16:44<Supercheese>maybe increase vehicle speed
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>maybe make different colours for testing purposes
16:46<Bad_Brett>Did you adjust the offsets?
16:46<Bad_Brett>or did you try with different sprites?
16:46<Supercheese>Templated offset adjustment
16:47<Supercheese>Maybe I just did something terribly wrong
16:48<Supercheese>which is entirely possible :P
16:48<Bad_Brett>Or could it be that the sprites can only be drawn after certain events (such as movement or changing direction)?
16:49<Supercheese>I dunno yet, hang on
16:49<Bad_Brett>Ok! Thanks for your effort, I really appreciate it :)
16:51<Supercheese>It doesn't seem to be cycling the spritesets
16:51<Supercheese>perhaps the variables aren't returning correctly
16:51<Eddi|zuHause><Bad_Brett> Or could it be that the sprites can only be drawn after certain events (such as movement or changing direction)? <-- i said something like that on the forum
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16:52<Supercheese>Where's the documentation on NML's var[] stuff?
16:52<Supercheese>accessing other variables
16:53<Bad_Brett>Eddi|zuHause: Yes, you did. I give you full credit for my comment then. :)
16:53*Supercheese has absolutely no idea what <shift> and <mask> mean
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>shift should be 0 most of the time, and mask 0xFF to 0xFFFFFFFF depending on the width of your variable
16:54<Supercheese>Ok, what is a mask, then?
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>shift and mask are for sieving out bitstuffing
16:55<Supercheese>not related ti bitmask()?
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>kinda the reverse
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16:55<Supercheese>extracting from an already masked?
16:55<Supercheese>I see
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>like if a variable is of the form 0xAABBCCDD, then you can extract AA only by setting shift to 24 and mask to 0xFF
16:56<Supercheese>That... kinda of makes sense
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>if you want BBCC then you set shift to 8 and mask to 0xFFFF
16:57<Supercheese>yeah, ok
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>but you don't need any of that here
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>you have a "clean" variable of byte size, so shift 0 and mask 0xFF
16:58<Supercheese>I've just never really understood what those were, thanks for explaining :)
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17:03<Supercheese>Yeah, it doesn't appear to be changing spritesets at all
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>what if you take a speed like 192?
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>and test with differently coloured sprites, like i suggested
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17:04<Eddi|zuHause>if it changes colour, then the basic variable works
17:05<Supercheese>I'm using the sprite aligner to find sprite numbers, and they're not changing
17:05<Supercheese>I figured they'd change if the sets were
17:05<Supercheese>but colors is indeed more visible
17:08<Rubidium>subspeed != progress
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>you sure?
17:09-!-frosch123 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:09<Rubidium>that they are not the same, yes I'm quite sure of that
17:10<Hirundo>Speed being equal to position would make little sense indeed
17:11<Rubidium>subspeed and progress are similar though; both are the fractional part of some other (set of) variable(s)
17:12<Bad_Brett>so what is subspeed then?
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17:13<Rubidium>1 subspeed is 1/256 speed
17:14<Rubidium>you add accel to subspeed, the overflow; floor(subspeed / 256) is added to the speed, the remained becomes the new subspeed
17:14<Rubidium>accel is either a constant or calculated by the physics code
17:15<Rubidium>basically speed + subspeed is a 24 bit fixed point number
17:15<Bad_Brett>So in other words, it can't be used to control animations? :(
17:16<Supercheese>Well, the switch *is* working
17:16<Supercheese>the new test has flashing colors
17:16<Supercheese>Now I have to figure out why it apparently wasn't earlier
17:17<Supercheese>and/or if these are just random flashes
17:17<Hirundo>Problem is that AFAIK the graphics are only updated if the vehicle actually moves, which happens 16x per tile
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: that is not how i remember subspeed being documented in the code, though
17:17<Hirundo>Or less, if the vehicle moves more than one unit at the time (>128km/h-ish)
17:17<Bad_Brett>Yep... that's what I was afraid of...
17:18<Supercheese>Hmm, seems pretty jumpy still
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17:18<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: which documentation, where?
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: that was quite a while ago. and might have been "canonical documentation" :p
17:20<Supercheese>So, apparently even if I have different offsets and the switch works, it still won't result in less jumpy movement, as the graphics can't be updated any faster
17:20<Supercheese>ah well
17:20<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: well, that might be worth a patch
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: it should not be too difficult to invalidate the cache every tick
17:21<Supercheese>patching OTTD is out of my league, unfortunately
17:21<Rubidium>that kinda defaults the purpose of a cache though :(
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: shouldn't be more than 3 LOC
17:21<Supercheese>although I suppose I should at least try before saying that definitively :P
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: well, it still helps with scrolling and stuff
17:21<Supercheese>tortoiseSVN works for grabbing source, yes?
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>especially while paused
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: and since most vehicles move every tick, unless they are standing still, it should not have such a big impact (imho)
17:23<Supercheese>Oh right, I have to actually compile after grabbing source
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: yes, you can use tortoisesvn
17:23<Supercheese>it doesn't magically put itself together :P
17:24<Rubidium>IMHO you should only invalidate it when it makes sense to do so
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: there are compile guides on the wiki
17:24<Supercheese>yeah, there now
17:24<Rubidium>i.e. do not do it when the vehicle isn't moving
17:24<Supercheese>I've just never bothered due to the complexity
17:24<Supercheese>but time to buckle down and figure it out
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: and "a variable that is exposed to NewGRFs changed" is not "making sense"?
17:25<Rubidium>in that case we better just trash the cache
17:25<Supercheese>How large is the source, couple hundred megabytes?
17:25<Rubidium>as the date_fract changes every tick
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: dozen, i think
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17:25<Supercheese>shouldn't take too long then
17:26<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: the compiler setup however...
17:26<Rubidium>Supercheese: depends on whether you checkout svn:// or just svn://
17:26<Supercheese>checked out trunk, looks like 8.45 mbytes
17:27<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: note that the checkout itself may be significantly larger
17:27<Eddi|zuHause>on disk
17:27<Supercheese>heh, ten times that on disk
17:27<Supercheese>still, 80 mbytes is small
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>my trunk checkout is 555MB
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>not sure why...
17:32<Supercheese>Yeah, this VC++ installation is gonna take a while
17:32<Supercheese>good old Micro$oft
17:32<Supercheese>'least it's free
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17:37<Eddi|zuHause>i think i'll retire.
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17:38<Bad_Brett>not me though :)
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17:42<Supercheese>Oh sheesh, someone just linked this. Captain Picard uses an Android smartphone:
17:44<Supercheese>My sister about fell out of her chair laughing
17:44<NGC3982>There is actually a lot of stuff in TNG+DS9 that resembles new technology.
17:44<NGC3982>Like the information pads.
17:45<NGC3982>Hm, i can't remember what episode that comes from.
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>i remember that picture, but can't quite place the scene into context
17:46<NGC3982>Ah, it's Phantasms
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>episode titles say nothing to me
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17:51<Supercheese>oh sheesk which Platform SDK to download
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17:54<garogolun>I can't remember that I ever needed Platform SDK
17:54<Supercheese>yeah, I'mma try without it first
17:55<Eddi|zuHause>since all the directmusic crap is just legacy code, newest SDK should be fine
17:56<Supercheese>Here goes
17:56<Supercheese>bleh, all sorts of stuff intercepted by my program execution defense
18:00<Supercheese>Err, where's the error window...
18:00<NGC3982>I miss Star Trek TNG.
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18:00<NGC3982>Im on DS9 now, and it's great. But it's not the same. :/
18:01<Supercheese>there it is
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18:10<BadBrett>Stupid internet
18:10<Supercheese>Well, hey look at that, OTTD compiled
18:10<Supercheese>that was... rather easy, actually
18:11<Supercheese>massive thanks to everyone who set up the project files
18:11<Supercheese>basically turns compiling into a point and click process for downstream users :)
18:11<Supercheese>oh, and the wiki editors
18:11<Supercheese>quite helpful as well
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18:13<BadBrett>really cool
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18:17<Supercheese>Well, now I guess I should learn how to make patches
18:17<Supercheese>now that stuff compiles
18:18<BadBrett>How do you apply a patch? Can it be attached to a NewGRF or does it affect the entire game?
18:18<Supercheese>You have to compile OTTD
18:18<Supercheese>like I just got working
18:18<Supercheese>it's not that hard at all, really
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18:19<BadBrett>So in order to get this to work, you need to download a patched version of the game?
18:19<BadBrett>Or can the patch be downloaded seperately?
18:20<Supercheese>If you want to use patches, you either download a precompiled, prepatched .exe
18:20<Supercheese>or download the patch AND the source code and apply the patch and compile yourself
18:20<Supercheese>the first option is waaaaaaaaaay easier
18:20<Supercheese>but the second isn't that bad either
18:20<Supercheese>what "this" are you wanting to work anyway?
18:21<BadBrett>smooth movement, curved tracks, that kind of things
18:21<Supercheese>well, someone has to write a patch for that first
18:22<BadBrett>i know :)
18:22<Supercheese>oh sweet, now I can up the max NewGRF limit in any revision
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18:22<Zuu>Supercheese: And make your save games incompatible with trunk :-)
18:22<Supercheese>now to find the ritght .cpp file
18:22<Supercheese>worth it, IMO
18:23<BadBrett>The question is... can patches be used in multiplayer (if all players have the same patched version of the game that is)
18:23<Supercheese>as long as the patch doesn't break multiplayer
18:24<Supercheese>there's a very active multiplayer community using Chill's Patchpack
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18:25<BadBrett>ok, cool
18:39<BadBrett>this is quite the dilemma... ox carts moving 5 mph will look really stupid with the current version... on the other hand, patching the game means that it will be harder for people to actually try the mod
18:39<Supercheese>c'est la bleeding edge
18:40<Supercheese>boldly going where no OTTDer has yet gone
18:40<Supercheese>do you have an ox cart rendered?
18:40<BadBrett>not yet :)
18:41<Supercheese>well, I'm sure when you do it'll look awesome
18:41<Supercheese>your graphics are really good :D
18:41<BadBrett>thanks! :)
18:41<BadBrett>i intend to make some for heavy freight
18:42<BadBrett>i'm thinking of replacing the road depot with a stable or something like that
18:43<Supercheese>yeah, that'd be neat
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18:47<BadBrett>i see now that you have made some awesome eye-candy vehicles
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18:48<Supercheese>thanks :)
18:48<Supercheese>as credited in the readme, though, I use renders from models on Google 3D warehouse
18:48<Supercheese>so I do not claim full credit for the base model
18:49<Supercheese>just the adaptation to OTTD
18:49<Supercheese>yay, 75 newgrfs loaded
18:49<BadBrett>well they are really nice anyway
18:50<BadBrett>i guess you still need an AI (or buy them manually) to make them work?
18:50<Supercheese>They're designed to work with the excellent TownCars AI
18:50<Zuu>BadBrett: While you have a point that it would look better if movement was smoth at 4x zoom, I'm sure your graphics will be stunning and look really great in most cases. And for game play, I'm sure at least I will not go to 4x level other than for looking at the details.
18:50<Supercheese>Zuu did a smashing job with that :D
18:50<Supercheese>(speak of the devil ;))
18:51<Supercheese>odd, ;) )
18:51<Supercheese>didn't smiley correctly
18:51<BadBrett>Cool! Does the AI build road depots?
18:51<Supercheese>It must, in order to build RVs
18:52<BadBrett>I wonder if it would be possible to change the look of their depots... you know, turn them into a parking garage/fire station etc.
18:53<Supercheese>Hmm, depends on which variables are available when deciding graphics
18:53<Zuu>Supercheese: :-)
18:54<Zuu>TownCars does remove the depots after it have built the cars.
18:54<Zuu>There is also a fork StreetTraffic that leave the road depots around to allow cars to service.
18:55<Supercheese>The modern TTRS depots look kinda like emergency station depots though
18:55<BadBrett>Zuu: Thanks a lot! I personally think that my scenario should be played on the 2x zoom level since everything moves more slowly than in the standard game. I think the biggest problem will be with ox carts and other very slow "vehicles".
18:56<BadBrett>Zuu: I've got to try TownCars now
18:58<Zuu>BadBrett: If your NewGRF have a callback thet is called every tick, and it knows the last tick when the vehicle was moved and the velocyty it had then, then you might be able to use a counter to keep moving in the same velocity as before? (having said that, I haven't written a single NewGRF so it might be that to do that, you need some additional values from OpenTTD)
18:58<Supercheese>we've been discussing stuff like that
18:58<Supercheese>it's quite the difficult subject...
18:59<Zuu>That would need less storage than increesing the precision of the coordinate system, but will sure get messy :-)
18:59<BadBrett>yep. my idea was to simply mess with the offsets, but obviously it was not that simple
19:02<Supercheese>Vale, dormiture
19:02<BadBrett>Hmm... I'm trying out TownCars but he doesn't seem to build any cars. Any idea why?
19:03<Supercheese>What other GRFs do you have?
19:03<Supercheese>Generic Cars? Eyecandy Vehicles?
19:03<BadBrett>do i need them as well?
19:03<BadBrett>yes off course
19:04<BadBrett>stupid me... it's only an AI
19:04<Supercheese>it can't build cars if you can't build them either ;)
19:05<BadBrett>seems logical :)
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20:35<Kitty>why can't I demolish a statue ?
20:36<Supercheese>Time to use magic bulldozer cheat?
20:38<Kitty>is it actually a feature to be unable to demolish a statue ?
20:39<Supercheese>I dunno, search the forums?
20:40<Supercheese>Seems like an intended feature
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20:51<MoonShine>hey all
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20:54<MoonShine>anybody had dependancy issues with ubuntu server saying theres some missing when trying to run dpdg, command line only
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22:15<Supercheese>I hope you can access vehicle variables when returning values from a callback block, say, "power: return cargo_subtype*300;"
22:16<Supercheese>if not, I'm going to have to make a lot more switches
22:17<Supercheese>well, I suppose (cargo_subtype+1)*300
22:21<Supercheese>my logic might be flawed here anyway
23:45<Supercheese>No, my logic worked, and you can :)
---Logclosed Mon Sep 10 00:00:45 2012