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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-09-16

---Logopened Sun Sep 16 00:00:58 2012
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02:54<@planetmaker>__ln__, you don't happen to have such a mouse, do you?
02:55<Supercheese>You mean a mouse with a left/right scroll?
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02:56<@planetmaker>I guess so
02:56*Supercheese has such a mouse
02:56<Supercheese>I think anyhow, unless I'm terrible mistaken
02:57<@planetmaker>but do you have osx?
02:57<Supercheese>I mean, mine does left/right scroll
02:57<Supercheese>ah, that I do ont
02:57<Supercheese>do not*
02:57<@planetmaker>it needs an osx tester ;-)
02:57<Supercheese>I can be of no help in that department :|
02:57<__ln__>planetmaker: actually i do happen to have one, though it's not connected to a mac.
02:58<@planetmaker>might be feasible for testing purposes?
03:00<__ln__>yes... but is it supposed to be any different than horizontal scrolling with a touchpad of a macbook/ibook?
03:00<@planetmaker>probably shouldn't
03:01<@planetmaker>I wonder whether I can hack-install an osx in a VM
03:01<Supercheese>probably end up breaking your computer :)
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03:02<@planetmaker>took me a few days to get everything setup... so I guess I know some more depths of what can go wrong than before ;-)
03:02<__ln__>isn't that issue about implementing horizontal scrolling for platforms other than OS X?
03:02<Supercheese>SAC drew some neat windsurfers in screenshots
03:03<@planetmaker>she drew a lot of neat stuff. Never released anything
03:03<Supercheese>they look good enough to try and code as eyecandy vehicles, but I'll never get permission for sprites
03:03<Supercheese>I already have most of her eyecandy buildings for personal use
03:03<@planetmaker>Several, including myself, have offered her help coding. To no avail
03:03<Supercheese>can't distribute of course
03:04<@planetmaker>__ln__, that issue lists osx explicitly as target platform...?
03:05<@planetmaker>ah... no, you're right. I didn'th ave enough coffee
03:05<@planetmaker>looking at too many issues at once :D
03:05<@planetmaker>trallalalalala :-)
03:06<@planetmaker>instead of investing into a card reader (as suggested to "work around" my camera not being properly detected on debian), I rather buy such mouse :-)
03:06<Supercheese>I recommend logitech G500 or comparable
03:06<Supercheese>but of course personal preference can vary wildly
03:06<__ln__>mine is Logitech RX250 and it costs ~10€
03:06<__ln__>and it's a good mouse imho
03:07*planetmaker has a logitec bj58. or whatever
03:07<@planetmaker>this mouse is not available anymore, I guess; it's ancient :D
03:08<Supercheese>Logitech tends to put out new versions of stuff so fast, and then old versions aren't available any more
03:08<@planetmaker>I wonder... whether I get the apple mighty mouse via bluetooth to work on this machine... hm
03:08<Supercheese>which is a shame, because IMNSHO the Logitech G15 is the best keyboard ever made
03:08<Supercheese>and it's no longer available
03:08<@planetmaker>Supercheese, this mouse is > 5 years old ;-) I used it on my previous desktop. Which I shelved like 4 years ago ;-)
03:09<@planetmaker>was like a AMD K6 processor. So similar age
03:09<Supercheese>my keyboard is at least 5 years old, and I'll use it until it breaks irreparably
03:09<@planetmaker>keyboard is the same age. And probably they might even have been bundled then. Dunno anymore
03:09<@planetmaker>But both work like a charm really
03:09<Supercheese>Looks like mine, except mine's American not German
03:11<Supercheese>The newer versions aren't nearly as good as the original version, sadly
03:11<__ln__>the horizontal scroll feature seems to be quite rare on non-apple mice
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03:17<Supercheese>well, I best sign off
03:17<Supercheese>have to be awake again in 7 hours
03:17<Supercheese>valete omnes
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03:46<Wolf01>morning o/
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05:50<Zuu_>Hello Alberth
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05:53<@Alberth>Zuu_: could you have a look at the PM for FS#5203 ?
05:55<Zuu_>Ill have a look at fs#5203 soon.
05:55<Zuu_>Pm as in pm on irc ir forums?
05:58<@Alberth>pm as a re-open request for the task
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06:20<Zuu_> I've read it now and will taka deeper look later when I have my development environment.
06:21<@Alberth>ok, thanks
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08:45<Simonn>hi friends
08:45<Simonn>is there a way to put in all vehicles in a hangar
08:45<Simonn>in the same group of vehicles?
08:45<Simonn>like instantly like
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08:48<@Alberth>if there is, it should be in the group window
08:48<FLHerne>Simonn: Do you mean send all vehicles in the same group to a hangar, or put all vehicles in a hangar into one group?
08:48<Simonn>I have a bunch of buses in a hangar
08:49<Simonn>they are all withut a group
08:49<Simonn>can I set them off into the same group by the push a button?
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08:51<Yexo>no, you can't do that
08:51<Yexo>(hangar is for aircraft only, for busses/trains it's called a depot)
08:53<Simonn>how can a big tycoon like me be bothered by grouping these things
08:53<Simonn>I should have staff for this
08:53<@Alberth>so don't group them, just let them run free :)
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08:54<Zuu__>That's when you write an AI to play for you :-)
08:55<Simonn>when you own such a big company like mine that is not an option Alberth
08:55<Simonn>shareholders demand statistics
08:55<Simonn>I mean you might be able to run your single coal-hauling train on your own, but when you transport *Cough cough* trillions of passengers a year things can get hectic
08:55<Zuu__>Everytime someone includes CluelessPlus in a game, I sort of play the game without any effort. :-p
08:56<@Alberth>Zuu__: too bad you cannot watch it :)
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08:57<Zuu__>Alberth: yeah. Although if I want to watch it I can start a game with CluelessPlus :-)
09:00<Simonn>when you do shared oreders
09:00<Simonn>and you want to edit em later
09:00<Simonn>does it matter which vehicle you change it to?
09:00<Simonn>okidoki thanks
09:00<@Alberth>no, they are shared :)
09:00<frosch123>unless you click "unshare" :p
09:01<Simonn>yeah I know thy are shared
09:01<Simonn>but I wondered if it was like
09:01<Simonn>a master-slaves thing
09:01<Yexo>Simonn: you can add all busses with shared orders to a group
09:01<Simonn>or just all slave buses
09:01<Simonn>you can? lol
09:01<Simonn>please tell me I have been dragging shit over for hours
09:02<Yexo>add one bus to the group, then select "add vehicles with shared orders" from the dropdown in the bottom right
09:02<@Alberth>Simonn: read more wiki :)
09:02<Simonn>ok thanks
09:02<Zuu__>this drop down is found in the group GUI
09:02<Simonn>yeah yeah Alberth I've read all day but there is so many and my bus drivers can't cope without me
09:03<Simonn>you know how it is with these unions
09:04<frosch123>you can also use the send to depot from the list of shared vehicles
09:04<frosch123>which you can open from the order gui
09:04<frosch123>you only need real groups for autoreplace :)
09:04<Simonn>yeah but it's nice to have a good list
09:04<Simonn>I have so many buses man
09:05<@Alberth>you can get a list of visiting buses from each station they visit
09:05<Zuu__>I seldom use the grouping feature. Shared orders is enough in most cases.
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09:11<frosch123>i only use them ad-hoc when i need to replace some vehicles
09:12<Yexo>I generally use a single engine type throughout my network, then use replace all
09:12<frosch123>play on mountainious then :)
09:13<Yexo>make railways around the mountains
09:13<frosch123>interestingly nuts provides just those engine classes i used to distinguish
09:13<frosch123>Yexo: doesn't help if source/target are on hill/valley
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09:40<Simonn>can't buy road vehicle
09:40<Simonn>vehicle not available
09:40<Zuu_>As in auto replace?
09:40<Simonn>ah noo
09:41<Zuu_>or auto renew?
09:41<Simonn>I was grouping and cloning the vehicles
09:41<FLHerne>Simonn: Vehicle not available any more? ;-)
09:41<Simonn>maybe they have been taken out of production
09:41<Simonn>does the game do that?
09:41<Simonn>I didn't know that lol
09:41<Zuu_>If you have auto renew enabled, and a vehicle is made obsolate, auto renew will fail with an error like that.
09:42<Simonn>I'll renew them later
09:42<Simonn>gotta max the service out of em rite
09:43<Simonn>and good for environment
09:43<Simonn>unless the new ones produce less CO2
09:43<Simonn>how to check CO2 output of a vehicle? My company is greener than green
09:43<FLHerne>Simonn: Not implemented yet :P
09:43<Simonn>man i'm full of ideas
09:44<Zuu_>Simonn: Neighbours are important have a congestion check which is probably the closest you get.
09:45<Zuu_>Congested towns will grow slower or not at all.
09:45<Zuu_>If you use that Game Script.
09:46<Simonn>oo I have superfast growing enabled
09:46<Simonn>and my network is superefficient
09:46<Simonn>no congestion man
09:46<Simonn>I can feel it
09:46<FLHerne>Zuu_: Gamescripts can measure the number of vehicles? :-)
09:46<Zuu_>FLHerne: Yes. They can get a list of all vehicles for any company.
09:47<FLHerne>Zuu_: And where they are on the map?
09:47<Zuu_>I've been thinking about a goal script that ask you to build one vehicle of each available engine.
09:48<Zuu_>FLHerne: Yes, once you have a list of all vehicle IDs, you can use the vehicle ID to get information about them. Eg. GSVehicle.GetLocation.
09:51<FLHerne>Zuu_: Neat :P
09:52<Zuu_>In general game scripts have access to the same information as AIs. Only that before using an API function to get information about company data, it have to select which company to get information about
09:52<Zuu_>This allows for easy porting of some code between AIs and GSs.
09:54<Zuu_>For example several libraries use the same code base and only a simple conversion script to generate one library version for AIs and one version for GSs.
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10:25<Simonn>it's the future
10:25<Simonn>it's all about trains nowadays
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10:26<@Alberth>it is, I thought space flight was the future, such as scram jets
10:26<Simonn>man god bless ur transport company
10:26<Simonn>EVERYONE can see trains = the future
10:27<Simonn>even Billy, my financial advisor, who HATES train travel agrees with the board
10:28<Simonn>maybe I should stop playing this game for a while
10:28<Simonn>it's messing with me
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11:05<Snail>hi guys
11:06<Snail>any ideas about when (and if?) we could expect to have additional counting ways added to randomaction2? :)
11:07<frosch123>i already coded it for var 61
11:07<frosch123>however, you can actually already do the stuff
11:08<frosch123>using var 40, register 100 and random action 84 with count = 0
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11:13<Snail>ok... but var40 only gives us the position of the current vehicle in the consist... doesn't it?
11:14<frosch123>it also gives yuo the length
11:16<Snail>but how can I use it to figure out another vehicle's random bit?
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11:17<frosch123>get the length, subtract one, put it in var 100, and use random action 84 with count = 0
11:17<frosch123>and "count from front" or so
11:18<Snail>oh, ok
11:19<Snail>anyway irs in var61 too? so I could use randomaction2 type 80 through var61 to access another vehicle's random bit, right?
11:20<frosch123>var 5f via var61 should be in next nightly
11:21<Snail>sounds great :)
11:24<Snail>btw I'm looking for var5f's documentation in
11:24<Snail>but I couldn't find any... am I looking at the wrong page?
11:28<Eddi|zuHause>it's in the general varaction2 page
11:30<Snail>ok, found it
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i totally do not understand the explanation for var 7B on that page
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11:36<NGC3982>Afternoon, animals.
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11:48<Simonn>If I have two tracks coming in
11:48<Simonn>and there are two platforms
11:48<Simonn>one direction
11:48<Simonn>which signaling do I use to make sure the train waits before the X
11:49<Simonn>so it picks the first free coming platform
11:50<Simonn>I know how to do it when 1 track becomes to
11:50<Simonn>Pre signal - exit
11:51<Simonn>but what if there are two rails for two platforms, and an X before them
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11:53<@peter1138>just use path signals, always
11:54<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: var7b[x] = x[acc]
11:56<Simonn>path signals on both rails
11:56<Simonn>- path x2 - X - station 2 platforms
11:58<FLHerne>Simonn: Yes
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11:59<fjb>Simonn: Just look at the wiki:
11:59<Simonn>yeaaah I have read that stuff like a hunderd times :p
11:59<Simonn>it still confuses me
12:01<Simonn>like this right?
12:01<Simonn>I just want to be absolutely certain before I unpause and start my entire thing
12:02<Simonn>and at the end of the platform, so that it unclears, just normal sigals rite?
12:02<Eddi|zuHause>you can use path signals everywhere
12:02<FLHerne>Simonn: You can use path signals for pretty much anything, anywhere
12:02<fjb>Just put them before the crossing, not after it.
12:03<Simonn>yeah but at the end of the platform too right?
12:03<Simonn>where the trains exit
12:03<Simonn>right thanks
12:03<Zuu>Yes, that is usually before a crossing
12:03<Simonn>I suck at signaling
12:03<FLHerne>With the exception of weird OTTD-coop invented things ;-)
12:06<Simonn>I think I made things a lil too complicated for a beginner first game
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12:29<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r24527 /trunk/src/newgrf_engine.cpp: -Add: [NewGRF] Allow resolving var 5F via vehicle var 61.
12:31<Kjetil>oh.. the famous var 61..
12:31<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r24528 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_engine.cpp vehicle_base.h): -Fix: [NewGRF] RandomAction 84 should interpret register 100 as signed.
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12:58<Zuu>What is the 5F variable?
12:59<Leander>is there some kind of calculator to see with how many wagons a train loses speed and stuff?
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13:00<Leander>or a table or something
13:01<Zuu>I think some people have made spreadsheets on that subject that have been posted on the forums.
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13:02<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: 5F is random bits
13:05<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: with 5F you can access the random bits directly, instead of indirectly via randomaction2
13:05<Zuu>So this makes it easier to randomize wagon appearance of a train?
13:06<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: e.g. in CETS i make a calculation based on date of last service + random number, to delay the repainting of the consist
13:07<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't actually tested it, though
13:08<Eddi|zuHause>the idea is that when a new livery comes out, the new vehicles are repainted immediately, but the old vehicles are only repainted after a randomized delay (up to 3 years currently)
13:08<Eddi|zuHause>so in that time you get a mix between old and new liveries
13:10<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: simple appearance chances you can do easier with randomaction2
13:12<Zuu>Ok, sounds interesting. I should perhaps try your CETS set in a game.
13:17<Eddi|zuHause>please do that. keep in mind that only the early prussian vehicles currently have real graphics
13:17<Eddi|zuHause>so ca. 1880 to 1920
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>but iirc the first graphics changes are after 1920
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13:35<Leander>this is a correct usage of the path signs right?
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13:36<Simonn>3 to 2 and 2 to 3
13:36<Simonn>it will work like this?
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13:38<Eddi|zuHause>that looks correct
13:38<Simonn>sweet thanks
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13:40<Simonn>is there a way to place signals in tunnels?
13:40<Simonn>just block signals
13:40<Simonn>so that there can be two trains in the tunnel at the same time
13:40<BtbN>i don't think so
13:41<Eddi|zuHause>just a very hacky patch, which i would not recommend to anyone
13:42<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: It actually works quite reliably, barring a few quirks :-)
13:42<BtbN>btw., is there an easy way to enable cheats on a dedicated server? My towns have grown a lot, and won't allow me some station fixes i want to make
13:42<FLHerne>But yes, very hacky, and has quite a lot of those quirks :P
13:42<Eddi|zuHause>"a few quirks" as in "does not work at all with path signals"?
13:43<BtbN>why not just treat a tunnel as if there's a path signal every 2nd field?
13:44<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: ll you have to do is put a block signal before and after each tunnel :-)
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>BtbN: cheats are not multiplayer safe
13:44<FLHerne>Anyway, it does sort-of work with path signals in some cases
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: which is already enough of a space restriction to make the patch completely useless (for me)
13:45<BtbN>Eddi|zuHause: all i want is the remove everything cheat
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>BtbN: that still does not make it multiplayer safe
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24529 /trunk/src/lang/ (hungarian.txt korean.txt latvian.txt):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: hungarian - 2 changes by yozi
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: korean - 2 changes by telk5093
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: latvian - 7 changes by Parastais
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13:45<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: I use it for valley-spanning bridges and mountain base tunnels. Space no issue :P
13:46<BtbN>Eddi|zuHause: Why is it not safe to allow removing everything for a few minutes?
13:46<Eddi|zuHause>BtbN: you have to quit the multiplayer game, load it in single player, use the cheat, disable the cheat again (! important !), and reaload it in multiplayer
13:46<FLHerne>Anyway, there are some situations where you can place a path signal directly after a tunnel :P
13:46<BtbN>i still don't get how it can be not safe
13:46<FLHerne>Can't remember exactly which then :P
13:46<BtbN>sure, everybody could remove everything, but i'm ok with that
13:46<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: it is, if i have a junction and a station directly before/after the bridge
13:47<Knogle>BtbN: so people could remove eachothers industries and what not.
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13:47<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: Move the junction/station along by one tile? :P
13:48<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: that's exactly why i say "too much"
13:48<BtbN>Knogle: Sure, but it's a server just for me and some friends, and sending the savegame to all of them, so they can fix their stations and towns, is not an option.
13:48<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: Since when has one tile mattered about anything? :o
13:48<Knogle>well, it's not possible, afaik.
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: on my maps? i'm _always_ one tile short of anything
13:49<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: How do you manage that? Anyway, you'll waste more space with 10 parallel bridges... :P
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: imagine a "subway" in a large town, two tracks, stations need to be "surface", tunnels inbetween.
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: currently, you need ~3 tiles for the station, 2 tiles for signals, 2 tiles for tunnel entrances = 7 tiles
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>you could reduce that to 5 tiles with the patch, by placing the singals on the tunnel entrances
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>BUT you cannot do that at the end station, where you need a path signal
13:51<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: So? Most of the time you save space, and at the end you still need less space than merging 4 parallel tunnels :P
13:52<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: you also cannot have splits inbetween
13:53<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: Again, that's still an improvement on anything you can do without the patch :P
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: another situation, you have a bridge over a valley, a junction, a station, another junction, and a tunnel entrance.
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>you cannot move the bridge end, neither the tunnel entrance, and the station needs a certain length
13:54<FLHerne>Yes, a 'proper' patch would be better?
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>but you need TWO!! additional tiles to place block signals
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>that is not only not an improvement, but also makes it WORSE than without the patch
13:55<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: So at the moment, where would you place all the tiles to split/merge all the parallel bridges and tunnels?
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: i rarely have the need to do parallel bridges
13:55<FLHerne>It's impossible for the patch to make it 'worse', just don't build signals on bridges where you don't want them, and it behaves the same as trunk :P
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>and in the few cases i do, they only need more width, not more length
13:56<FLHerne>If you don't need parallel bridges, why would you want to put signals on them anyway?
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: so "just don't use it" means it's "useless"
13:57<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: to save space. i said that
13:57<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: No, it's extremely useful in many situations. In the ones where it isn't, don't use it...
13:58<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: if i could place the entrance signal of the junction on the last bridge tile, i could save 1 tile of space for the junction
13:58<Eddi|zuHause>and with custombridgeheads, i could save another tile
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>but for that to work, it must be a path signal on the bridge
14:08<fjb>BtbN: Just make the towns happy by planting trees.
14:09<BtbN>fjb: does not work forever.
14:10<Simonn>is there a way to check delays at an airport?
14:10<fjb>BtbN: Then serve the statios of the town well. It will keep your reputation high enough.
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>BtbN: it works for ~3 houses at a time, but can be repeated indefinitely
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14:11<BtbN>It would take years to finish it that way
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14:12<Eddi|zuHause>or: create a company, remove 10 houses in each town, remove the company [repeat]
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14:17<Simonn>is there a setting that always "airport too close to another airport" to be overriden?
14:17<Simonn>or changed to more permissive?
14:18<fjb>Use only one airport per station.
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14:18<Zuu>Also, hold the CTRL key
14:18<Simonn>why only one airport per station?
14:18<Simonn>I have everything linked together
14:19<Simonn>3 train stations, couple of bus/tram stops and an intercontinental airport
14:19<Simonn>but i'm losing profit because the intercontinental airport can't handle the traffic
14:19<Eddi|zuHause>Simonn: the game mechanics are currently unable to distribute the planes between the entry points of different airports
14:19<Simonn>what does that mean exactly :p
14:19<Eddi|zuHause>yes. :p
14:20<Simonn>so there is no way? :(
14:20<fjb>The planes would find only one of the airports.
14:20<Eddi|zuHause>well, the solution would be: implement it!
14:20<Simonn>yeah but it'll become the same airport
14:20<Simonn>they'd be linked
14:21<Simonn>but I even don't understand why it can't handle the traffic.. the parking spots are empty
14:21<Zuu>To do that, you will need to implement some way for the planes do decide which airport to use.
14:21<Simonn>just the runways are always occupied
14:21<fjb>But they wouls only find one of the linked airports.
14:21<Simonn>so even if I place a 2nd one, it won't be used?
14:21<Simonn>is that what you are saying
14:22<Simonn>Is there no way to overcome this problem?
14:22<Simonn>an addon or trick or whatever?
14:23<Eddi|zuHause>if you write it, he will come
14:23<Zuu>Simonn: It is possible to re-work the OpenTTD code so that there can be multiple airports in the same station. However that is a non-trivial task. I don't know of any published attempts to do that.
14:23<Simonn>hmm i'm talking more about an ingame trick
14:23<Simonn>what if I would place a railroad in between connecting the two intercontinental airports
14:24<Simonn>would they share the traffic a bit?
14:24<Zuu>Split the station and transfer cargo?
14:24<Kjetil>Couldn't the entry points on airports be handled like presignals on a railway station ?
14:24<Simonn>It's all passenger
14:24<Simonn>So I have airport A with all my railroads connected to it and what not
14:25<Simonn>could I open Airport B and use a railroad with transfer the passengers to B
14:25<Simonn>and link some planes to that to diminish traffic a lil?
14:25<Zuu>You could make 50% of your aircraft use Airport B.
14:25<Zuu>If Airport B accepts passengers, all you need is some trains that roughtly transport 50% of the passengers that A attracts to B.
14:25<Simonn>and then a railroad in between?
14:26<Simonn>so just a train that goes round and round and round and unloads, loads unloads loads
14:26<Zuu>Just don't try to transport passengers in both directions using transfer orders.
14:26<Eddi|zuHause>no, on one side it loads, and on the other side it "transfer and leave emty"
14:26<Zuu>The train going from A to B will load at A and transfer and leave empty at B.
14:27<Simonn>yeah thats what I meant
14:27<Simonn>will that work?
14:27<Simonn>but what about passengers arriving at B?
14:27<Simonn>nvm they'll be picked up by other planes I guess?
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>you must have enough houses nearby so the planes can directly unload
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>the planes cannot transfer
14:27<Simonn>The planes are just "go to" - "go to" between airports
14:28<Simonn>will a plane delivering stuff to Airport B
14:28<Zuu>And if B attract passengers from houses, they cannot be transported by train to A
14:28<Simonn>take passengers from other planes
14:28<Simonn>that arrived there previously?
14:28<Zuu>(or you will end up transporting passengers back and fourth between A and B)
14:29<Simonn>there are no houses nearby
14:29<Simonn>this is kind of my situation
14:29<Eddi|zuHause>Simonn: no, planes unloading for other planes will not work
14:29<Simonn>then the passengers would be stranded forever lol
14:29<Eddi|zuHause>Simonn: the airport must accept passengers
14:30<Simonn>yes the left one
14:30<Simonn>but look at the signs
14:30<Zuu>If there are now houses nearby B, then you need a two way transfer system where B is two airports B1 and B2 and have planes unload at B1, go empty to B2 and there load passengers.
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>Simonn: both of them
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>Simonn: use a bus station with Ctrl+build
14:30<Simonn>and go around the city a lil bit?
14:31<Eddi|zuHause>Simonn: just close enough that it accepts passengers. you do not want to take away too many passengers from the other airport
14:32<Zuu>Ideally, B only covers a few houses. Enough that it will have a stable acceptance of passengers, but not take away passengers from A unnedlessly.
14:32<Simonn>this stuff is complicated
14:33<Eddi|zuHause>yes, it is. but there is currently no better solution
14:33<Simonn>are there any plans to implement the thing that I am looking for?
14:33<Simonn>like some smart guy workoing on this
14:33<Simonn>any ETA? :p
14:33<Eddi|zuHause>but they have not gone very far
14:33<Eddi|zuHause>no ETAs whatsoever
14:33<Eddi|zuHause>never with opensource
14:34<Eddi|zuHause>afaik nobody is actively working on it currently
14:34<Eddi|zuHause>it's a side project of a much bigger issue, customisable airports via NewGRFs
14:34<Zuu>afaik the last attempts to work on airport stuff was about a year ago.
14:35<Zuu>Simonn: What you will set up is something like a one-way feeder system:
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14:36<Simonn>you guys are so patient with me <333
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14:36<Simonn>do you think this coverage is enough
14:36<Simonn>so it gets rid of the passengers?
14:36<Zuu>One of the key items in your case is that when a vehicle is ordered to transfer cargo, it will be unloaded at a station as transfer cargo and not be accepted by the station even if the station accepts the cargo.
14:37<Eddi|zuHause>Simonn: it should say "accepts: Passengers" in the station build window
14:37<Simonn>oh it does
14:37<Simonn>but I thought it mattered
14:37<Eddi|zuHause>then that is enough
14:37<Zuu>Once at the station, there is however not any way (for orders) to distingush between transfered cargo and cargo that have been accepted from nearby houses.
14:37<Simonn>I thought it mattered how many houses were in the range
14:37<Simonn>for unloading too
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>Simonn: but only up to ~4 houses
14:38<Zuu>You need >= 8 passenger units to accept passengers.
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>after that it is irrelevant
14:38<Zuu>You can use the info tool to see how many units each house offers.
14:38<Zuu>Eg 1/8, 2/8 etc.
14:38<Simonn>where cna I see units?
14:38<Simonn>oh I see
14:39<Simonn>it has like 10 houses in range
14:39<Simonn>with like 5/8 all
14:39<Simonn>so I assume it will accept everything the planes set there?
14:39<Zuu>Though, in the GUI it shows 1/8 etc. and in that case a sum of 1,0 is enough.
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14:40<Eddi|zuHause>Simonn: yes, with 5/8, two houses are enough
14:40<Zuu>Internally it however use integer values and therefore eg. AIs need to check for >= 8.
14:40<Simonn>some say just "passengers"
14:40<Simonn>no number
14:40<Eddi|zuHause>Simonn: yes, then 1 house is enough
14:40<Zuu>Then its implicitly 8/8
14:41<Simonn>I must have an ownage house
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14:41<Simonn>I mean ownage HQ city*
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14:41<Eddi|zuHause>the HQ accepts passengers as well, so if all else fails, place your HQ nearby :)
14:41<Simonn>you can actually place an HQ?
14:41<Eddi|zuHause>yes, from your company window
14:42<Simonn>so technically I could go out into the open
14:42<Simonn>and build all my airports there?
14:42<Simonn>and placem my HQ in the middle?
14:42<Simonn>and use that as my suberhub?
14:43<Zuu>Then all those airports will accept passengers
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>yes, bring the passengers by train from the nearby city, load them onto planes, fly them far away.
14:44<Zuu>From far away, you can fly planes to this hub and the passengers will be accepted.
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>keep in mind that the train must run back empty
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>and you can only have one HQ
14:44<Simonn>well at the moment I do it like this
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>so you cannot have two such places
14:44<Simonn>every city has one, two, three Tram rings
14:44<Zuu>Eg. you can either deliver passengers to your HQ or transfer them to allow an airplane (or train or any vehicle) pick them up.
14:44<Simonn>and they go around in circles and 'unload and leave empty' at my Hubs
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>use "transfer and leave empty", not "unload and leave empty"
14:45<Simonn>yeah thats what I mean
14:45<Simonn>My hubs have trains running through them with 'go to' connecting them to all other hubs
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>important difference :)
14:45<Simonn>and also planes with 'go to'
14:45<Simonn>and they all go to the intercontintal airports
14:45<Simonn>am I doing something wrong or is this setup nice?
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that'll probably work
14:46<Simonn>so to recap. Half of my planes from the small hubs are send to my intercontinental 1 or 2
14:46<Simonn>1 transfers passengers coming from my trains & trams to 2, never in reverse
14:46<Simonn>and 2 will unload the passengers coming from planes to the houses nearby, because they have 8/8 after that it doesn't matter
14:46<Simonn>nice nice nice
14:47<Zuu>After having practiced this, you can also read up on two-way feeder systems on the wiki. However, I guess it is already enough new that it is better to practice this before reading about even more stuff.
14:47<Simonn>well I already knew about one way feeder
14:47<Simonn>I use the 'unload and leave empty' with my buses
14:47<Simonn>who collect passengers from the city to my hubs
14:48<Eddi|zuHause>however, i predict if you try to load your game in CargoDist, your efficiency drops to near 0, because planes don't have nearly enough capactity to carry all the passengers that they have to :p
14:48<Zuu>In that case you should be using 'transfer and leave empty' - not the 'unload an leave empty' order.
14:48<Simonn>yeah damnit I always mix them up
14:48<Simonn>but not in the game
14:48<Simonn>just on here :p
14:50<Simonn>hmm I just read that two way feeder service thing
14:50<Simonn>won't that be better for me? :x
14:50<Simonn>I think I could make it work
14:51<Zuu>Utilzation of your aircrafts will drop, but allow transporting the passengers a little bit further by train.
14:51<Simonn>hmm I don't want them to drop
14:51<Simonn>maybe one way feeder is better then?
14:52<Zuu>If aircraft are expansive to run, then the two way feeder is expansive as you will run the aircrafts empty for quite some time. If aircraft are cheap, then the two-way feeder may work.
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>two-way-feeder doesn't really make sense
14:53<Zuu>The two-way feeder need more space
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>i'd not do it if i could avoid it
14:53<Simonn>so Eddi|zuHause you would go with the one way
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>the only case it makes sense is valuables
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>when you can't place your station near the bank
14:54<Eddi|zuHause>it gets easier with cargo destinations
14:54<Eddi|zuHause>but then you have different problems
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15:20<Simonn>when destroying one train station
15:20<Simonn>linked with other train stations
15:20<Simonn>they are all destroyed
15:20<Simonn>any way to unlink them first?
15:21<Rubidium>use the bulldozer instead of dynamite
15:22<Simonn>bulldozer is gray
15:22<Simonn>grey* OMG
15:22<Simonn>ah found it nvm thanks
15:28<BtbN>Hm, i patched the openttd server, so i could enable the magic bulldozer via console. But it seems like the client decides what he's able to bulldoze
15:31<Hirundo>Yes, client and server execute the same commands independently
15:31<BtbN>ok, so i have to patch the client, too
15:32<Hirundo>Commands (e.g. build X, bulldoze Y, change orders for vehicle Z) are sent across the net, but not their results, so if results differ, you get a desync error
15:33<BtbN>yeah, so i have to watch out client and server are in the same state
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15:49<Eddi|zuHause>that is exactly what is meant with "cheats are not multiplayer safe"
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15:58<BtbN>Eddi|zuHause: and what's the problem with synchronizing cheats state between client and server?
15:59<Eddi|zuHause>BtbN: nobody has ever looked at any
15:59<Eddi|zuHause>because it was never a design goal, it did not need checking
16:00<BtbN>It's annoying as some cheats are very usefull
16:01<BtbN>and sending the current cheats status to all clients when the status changed or a client connects, should not be that complicated
16:03<Rubidium>unfair advantages, cache issues, ...
16:06<BtbN>i don't see whats unfair, if some server admin abuses the cheats, that sucks, sure, but it's his problem
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16:45<@Terkhen>good night
16:46<fjb>Good night Terkhen.
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17:18<Simonn>is there any way to increase capacity of an airport?
17:18<Simonn>I'm about the open up my third intercontinental one I don't know how longer I can keep this up lol
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17:20<Eddi|zuHause>the state machines are not properly optimised, the international airport may be slightly more efficient (someone did a test once)
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17:21<Eddi|zuHause>my experience is that with careful timetabling you can squeeze out some further efficiency on the smaller airports
17:21<Simonn>so international ones are more efficient than the intercontinental?
17:21<Supercheese>yep, strange as it sounds
17:21<Supercheese>lemme dig up the confirming evidence
17:21<Simonn>a lot?
17:21<Simonn>because international ones don't look cewl
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>but i did not have the patience to try handle timetables with so many planes for a large airport
17:21<Simonn>and I don't use time tables
17:22<Simonn>they just come and leave
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>timetables might not have such a big effect, because landing and taking off don't overlap on the large airports
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>but e.g. on the commuter airport, it can almost double the capacity
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>if you can interleave landing and starting properly
17:23<Simonn>my runways are always full
17:23<Simonn>planes are always circling
17:24<Simonn>and it makes me lose money
17:24<Simonn>because I guess they arrive later?
17:24<Simonn>takes more time?
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>yes, a lot
17:24<Supercheese>if you've zillions of circling planes
17:24<Supercheese>it is time for more airports
17:24<Supercheese>and the International actually is better than intercontinental for throughput
17:24<Supercheese>so more internationals
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>if you used timetables, you could immediately see when you have too many planes
17:24<Supercheese>bulldoze the intercontinentals
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>but timetable management is fiddly
17:25<Simonn>u sure?
17:25<Simonn>Supercheese ?
17:25*Supercheese hates timetables
17:25<Simonn>they look so nice
17:25*Supercheese never uses them
17:25<Supercheese>it's up to you
17:25<Supercheese>if you want functionality, go international
17:25<Supercheese>aesthetics, choose whatever floats yer boatr
17:25<Simonn>is it like
17:25<Simonn>50% more effectif
17:25<Simonn>or like 20% more like
17:25<Simonn>I mean does it matter a lot?
17:26<Supercheese>it's a small amount
17:26<Supercheese>but slightly more efficient
17:26<Eddi|zuHause>it's not a lot
17:26<Supercheese>read the thread I linked
17:26<Supercheese>reason I like internationals is in addition to being more efficient they take less space
17:26<Supercheese>far less space
17:27<Supercheese>and I believe also have lower maintenance costs if you play with maintenance on
17:27<Supercheese>win-win-win really
17:27<Supercheese>but in the end it's yer choice
17:27<Supercheese>don't let me dictate your games ;)
17:27<Simonn>i'll see
17:27<Simonn>Eddi|zuHause: what we talked about earlier
17:27<Simonn>with the transfering to airports
17:28<Simonn>I could link as many as I want right?
17:28<Simonn>just add another airport C, and do the transfers from A to C
17:28<Simonn>tnx all
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>adjust train length or amount, if passengers pile up too much on one airport
17:29<Simonn>pff all my trains are 7 long
17:29<Simonn>and there are always 3 in every direction
17:30<NGC3982>7 are not pff-able.
17:30<Supercheese>You can add some "subways" to link the airports, they have great capacity (with standing-room parameter) ;)
17:30<Supercheese>(which is default)
17:31<Simonn>wait I'll show you what I have
17:31<Simonn>I have been no lifing lol
17:32<Simonn>Another question: implicit orders, I know what they are -> does the train standard get rid & get new passengers
17:32<Simonn>at implicit stops?
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17:49<Simonn>thas what I have atm
17:50*FLHerne hates the maglevs :P
17:50<Eddi|zuHause>i would never build anything like that... but whatever floats your boat :p
17:50*Supercheese is also not fond of 100% maglev networks
17:50<Simonn>it's my first try :(((
17:50<Simonn>whats wrong with it
17:50<Supercheese>I don't mind when maglevs are used as a supplementary method of transport
17:50<FLHerne>Simonn: Nothing, but I find maglevs ugly :P
17:50<Simonn>excuse me
17:50<Simonn>look at the bottom
17:51<Simonn>this is standard commodity
17:51<Supercheese>Yes, the train selections depend on which set you are using
17:51<Supercheese>if default vehicles, then yeah maglevs are pretty much all ya got
17:51<Eddi|zuHause>Simonn: you should move the signal, so it's not directly after the junction
17:51<Simonn>which signal
17:51<Eddi|zuHause>the one that's directly after the junction
17:52<Simonn>there are so many
17:52<Supercheese>You have a city airport... why>
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>from the "south" airport
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>the next signal after the train leaves the station
17:53<Eddi|zuHause>move that to directly before the depot
17:53<Simonn>the inner track?
17:53<Eddi|zuHause>and the one after that, move that to directly before the tunnel
17:53<FLHerne>Simonn: My games tend to look more like this:
17:53<FLHerne>Totally inefficient, but nice-looking (to me, at least ;-) )
17:54<Simonn>are you people like old school
17:54<Simonn>i'm living in tha future
17:54<Supercheese>Steam engines >>> all others ;)
17:54<FLHerne>Well, I hate playing into the future :P
17:55<Simonn>thats okay if you can't handle the fast lifestyle ;-)
17:55*FLHerne starts in 1920, plays through to 2012, then starts a new game :-)
17:55<FLHerne>If I'm really bored, I start in 1870 :P
17:55<Simonn>I started in 2012 with big cities
17:55<Supercheese>I tend to start a game, play until the game gets absurdly complex and cargo starts piling up at every station, then start over :P
17:55<Eddi|zuHause>my last game looked like this:,%2013.%20Apr%202027.png (12MB)
17:55<Supercheese>that usually happens rather fast, actually, since I build while paused and cheat myself loads of money
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>started around 1920-ish
17:56<Simonn>dude how do you make such a big screenshot
17:56<Simonn>thats insane
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>in the ? menu
17:56<Simonn>o lol
17:56<Simonn>I did it with PRTSCR and aint
17:56<Supercheese>Holy ships, Batman
17:57<Supercheese>You've got more hydrofoils than you can stick a shake at
17:57*FLHerne goes to screenshot his game
17:57<Simonn>i'm still waiting
17:57<Simonn>on the first part to load
17:57<Supercheese>there's a "giant screenshot" option
17:57<FLHerne>Whoops, wrong OTTD version installed :-(
17:57<Eddi|zuHause>it has lots of black on the corners
17:57<FLHerne>I'll have to do it another time :P
17:59<Eddi|zuHause>the tram networks are the most fiddly, because they depend badly on timetables
17:59<Eddi|zuHause>otherwise they just bunch up and arrive all directly after each other, then nothing for half a year
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18:01<Simonn>that stuff won't load in my browser
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>also i timetabled the maglev line, because one stopping at the merge is a hopeless capacity reduction
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>Simonn: right-click and save to disk?
18:02<Simonn>and my tram net and stuff doesn't depend on tietables
18:02<Simonn>it's just constant
18:02<Simonn>my stations always have 500 passengers in them, it's a circle and there is always 1 tram at every station
18:02<Simonn>as soon as the tram leaves, another one arrives
18:02<Supercheese>vanilla timetables are absurdly fiddl
18:02<Supercheese>auto vehicle separation patches worked well though
18:03<Eddi|zuHause>autoseparation has horrible side effects when you have a jam
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>no, i always use manual separation
18:04<Supercheese>I've given up on timetables (except to limit speeds)
18:05<Supercheese>they tend to be TMWFTLB
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>i dream of having a properly timetabled train network once...
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>but they take too much time, and you can't do everything while paused
18:06<Simonn>I can
18:06*Supercheese does most everything while paused
18:06<Supercheese>esp. since it's no longer a cheat
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>you cannot let a train drive to measure the time, while paused.
18:06<Supercheese>hence the "most"
18:12<Eddi|zuHause>attention when making giant screenshots: it takes _ages_ with large maps, and no known program can load the resulting file (because the programs will try to decompress the whole file in memory, which takes several GiB of RAM)
18:12<@peter1138>Supercheese, *almost
18:13<Supercheese>Hmm, "most everything" not good enough?
18:13<@peter1138>not in english
18:14<@peter1138>most and almost are different words
18:14<Eddi|zuHause>does the al- mean it's derived from arabic? :p
18:14<Supercheese>"the adverb most that is a shortening of almost has been attested in the language since the earli 17th century"
18:15<Eddi|zuHause>Supercheese: but you don't speak early 17th century english either.
18:16<@peter1138>i am aware that almost all american people get it wrong
18:16<@peter1138>but then they get tons of other stuff wrong too
18:16<Eddi|zuHause>but you get that a lot when learning spanish, most words that start with al- are derived from arabic
18:16<FLHerne>I certainly wouldn't recognise 'most' in that context as valid grammar :P
18:16<Supercheese>I'd type the whole article I'm referencing but that'd take forever
18:17<Eddi|zuHause>i also had to read over "most everything" twice to get what was meant...
18:17<Supercheese>Seems to be an Americanism then
18:17<Supercheese>or United Statesism?
18:17<Eddi|zuHause>well, i have english as a foreign language
18:21<Supercheese>English /= American apparently
18:21<Supercheese>(of course that's not news ;) )
18:22<Eddi|zuHause>of course, the courses in school focused on british english, but there were a few things about american english as well. and generally it's accepted if you write stuff in american english in tests and essays (just do not mix styles)
18:24<Eddi|zuHause>and of course the english have really weird dialects as well :)
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18:25<Simonn>eh gus need some help
18:26<Simonn>I kind of did some wrong signaling
18:26<Simonn>how do I get out of this situation
18:26<SpComb>nuke it from orbit
18:26<SpComb>only way to be sure
18:27<Supercheese>you're in quite a pickle
18:27<SpComb>replace one of the tracks with a depot
18:27<Supercheese>yeah, blow up one signal and stick a depot there
18:27<SpComb>your track-junctions are a little ..
18:28<Simonn>what? :p
18:28<Supercheese>disabling 90 degree turns will help avoid this
18:28<Supercheese>(and yeah, also better junctioning
18:28<Simonn>how so
18:28<Simonn>whats wrong? :(
18:29<FLHerne>Simonn: Any junction that relies on 90 degree turns is seriously flawed :P
18:29<Simonn>it isn't 90 degrees lol
18:29<Simonn>but one track wasn't made
18:29<Simonn>and I didn't see
18:29<Supercheese>maglev junctions are notoriously difficult to see
18:29<Simonn>yeah indeed
18:30<Simonn>I have had this problem before
18:30<Simonn>but the train just came along at the worst time possible
18:30<FLHerne>How do trains exit the second platform from the right then?
18:30<Eddi|zuHause>remove the two signals with track, and make a loop
18:30<FLHerne>Or is that the missing bit of track?
18:30<Eddi|zuHause>missing tracks are hard to see with maglev
18:31<Eddi|zuHause>try the "shanghai maglev inspired track set" (or so)
18:31<Simonn>FLHerne: that was missing too
18:31<Simonn>a piece was missing
18:32<Simonn>the train came out of the 2nd track, but couldn't turn right onto the junction
18:32<Simonn>but I didn't see it with those tracks
18:32<Simonn>it could turn left*
18:32<Simonn>so it turned right instead, the only way it could go
18:32<fjb>Eddi|zuHause: Nice looking game.
18:32<Simonn>i'm uberlucky that the train is like not 1 unit longer
18:32<Simonn>or I couldn't build the depo
18:33<Eddi|zuHause>fjb: thanks. it's already a year old now
18:35<fjb>This is from my current game:
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18:35*Supercheese prefers TTD gfx over OpenGFX
18:36<Eddi|zuHause>me too
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18:36*FLHerne prefers OGFX+ without the gridlines :P
18:36*Supercheese likes the gridlines
18:36<FLHerne>Both sets of default trees are hideous :-(
18:36<Eddi|zuHause>i could live without the gridlines
18:36<FLHerne>The gridlines are ugly too :D
18:37<Eddi|zuHause>but OpenGFX has a very dark style
18:37*fjb likes OpenGFX since the addition of hay bales.
18:37<Eddi|zuHause>and some things are rendered really fuzzily
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18:39<FLHerne>Well, the only bit of OGFX I ever see is the trees :P
18:39<FLHerne>s/trees/ground tiles/ :o
18:39<FLHerne>Quite a major difference there...
18:40<FLHerne>Oh, and a couple of the industries
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20:18<Simonn>man too many airport
20:20<Simonn>I only got like 40 planes
20:20<Simonn>and they need 4 airports for that
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20:23<Supercheese>depends on how far apart your destinations are and how fast the planes are
20:24<Simonn>not very far
20:24<Simonn>some are like 40 tiles away
20:24<Supercheese>there's yer problem
20:24<Simonn>more like 30
20:24<Supercheese>pick farther spots
20:24<Supercheese>more money for longer distance
20:25<Simonn>I know bt I want development too
20:25<Simonn>I'm developing a big cluster
20:26<Simonn> Supercheese
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20:27<Simonn>som airports are close together ther
20:27<BtbN>do you transfer people there, or are they linked to some stations inside?
20:27<Simonn>I have one airport that's linked to about 20 railroad tracks or something and a lot of trams/buses
20:28<Simonn>and then the other 3 airports recieve transfers from that airport
20:28<Simonn>by a train
20:28<BtbN>i have a city in which i reserved the space for one of the big airports
20:28<BtbN>and i'll let it grow for 50 years
20:29<BtbN>so the airport will be surronded by buildings
20:29<Simonn>yeah most of my airports are surrounded by buildings too after a while
20:29<Simonn>but I bought surrounding land
20:29<Simonn>because I might need more space in the future
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20:29<Simonn>I'm linking in more towns to the hub now and I think I might need another 30-40 railroad tracks
20:30<Simonn>so reserving some space for that
20:30<BtbN>btw., is it only me or is transporting people the only realy protiable busines? Doing stuff for factories does not seem to grow that much
20:31<BtbN>it's nice for some money in the beginning, but later it's just not enough
20:31<Simonn>I always found profitable
20:31<Simonn>but in that game I only do passengers
20:31<Simonn>& mail
20:33<Supercheese>depends on the industry set
20:33<Supercheese>express, long-distance mail trains really do haul in cash though
20:34<BtbN>i always build a realy big network of double-rails, one for each direction, and try to connect all citys i come along
20:34<BtbN>and then start putting trains on it, to see how much it can handle
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21:00<Eddi|zuHause>passemgers are so insanely profitable, because there are so many of them
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21:02<BtbN>industries should grow/produce more if you transport for them for a longer time
21:03<BtbN>and not sometimes just close, making an entire transport system useless
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23:54<Supercheese>I now have a new newgame strategy: pick largest city and build subway network :D
23:55<Supercheese>can't buy too make consists, though, as 4-car consists are ~$60,000
23:55<Supercheese>too many*
---Logclosed Mon Sep 17 00:01:00 2012