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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-09-17

---Logopened Mon Sep 17 00:01:00 2012
00:03<BtbN>subway?
00:04<Supercheese>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=62672
00:05<BtbN>seems like a normal road vehicle just with a shadow texture?
00:05<Supercheese>exactly
00:06<Supercheese>Currently the best ('cause it's the only :P ) implementation of subways in OTTD
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02:01<NataS>pppht
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02:11<telanus>Môre
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02:23<@Terkhen>good morning
02:25<__ln__>···· ·· - · ·-· -·- ···· · -·
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02:59<@planetmaker>moin
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03:14<NGC3982>Morning.
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03:47<@peter1138>Indeed it is.
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04:59*planetmaker ponders to charge 100€ for saying "use manual industries grf": http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1714/
05:00<NGC3982>Hah.
05:06<NGC3982>Supercheese: "Subways cannot pass under other surface road vehicles, and can be blocked by them if they are traveling too slowly or are stopped."
05:06<NGC3982>Supercheese: Is there anyway to solve that, at all?
05:07<NGC3982>Afaik, i read something on the forums about that some time ago, "not being fixable".
05:10<__ln__>the only way to overcome such would be to fork OpenTTD
05:12<NGC3982>Ouch.
05:12<NGC3982>But
05:12<NGC3982>There should be some way to work around it, i guess
05:13<NGC3982>Aircraft and trains can travel ontop of each other, for instance.
05:13<NGC3982>Creating the illusion of something being under something else shouldn't be impossible.
05:13<@planetmaker>of course you can change everything. But getting true subways into the game is really a major undertaking
05:13<NGC3982>Might be a bastard to create, though.
05:13<NGC3982>Yeah, i guess so.
05:14<NGC3982>It would be a really nice thing though.
05:14*NGC3982 should look into it.
05:14<@planetmaker>first of all you need to enable a 3D map array
05:14<NGC3982>Do you need a 3D map array for aircraft?
05:14<NGC3982>I have no idea how the game core works, so im a bit fuddled on how the aircraft uses the arbitrary "height".
05:17<__ln__>NGC3982: Backward compatibility, i.e. the ability to load any old game is the highest priority for OpenTTD... And as long as it is, the map array can't be redesigned to enable nice new features.
05:17<NGC3982>I see.
05:19<__ln__>There has been talk about redesigning the array since 2004... And since it hasn't happened in the past 8 years, I don't suppose it will happen in the next 8 years either.
05:19<NGC3982>I guess it's too much work for a small reward.
05:25<@peter1138>it's been done once
05:25<@peter1138>it all falters at performance and memory consumption
05:40<NGC3982>I see.
05:41<NGC3982>Though, im looking for a industry tile grf with loading animation
05:41<NGC3982>or at least tiles that show the load
05:41<NGC3982>like CHIPS, but for the standard industry set.
05:48<Eddi|zuHause>i know of two very recent restructuring attempts to allow more flexible tile compositions
05:49<Eddi|zuHause>one had major performance issues (and little developer time to resolve them) and the other was quite less flexible
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05:50<fjb>Moin.
05:52<Eddi|zuHause>quak
05:52<Eddi|zuHause>oh, wait...
05:53<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: I see.
05:59<fjb>:)
06:08<@planetmaker><__ln__> NGC3982: Backward compatibility, i.e. the ability to load any old game is the highest priority for OpenTTD... And as long as it is, the map array can't be redesigned to enable nice new features. <-- that's not true. Adding some code to load old maps is not the issue. The issue is performance really
06:12<NGC3982>What kind of performance increase are we talking about? Simply having too much vehicles and graphics, or too much code?
06:13<@peter1138>wouldn't be a problem if it was a performance increase :p
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06:16<__ln__>what would Darkvater say?
06:18<NGC3982>Well, yeah, that sounds logical. :P
06:18<@peter1138>Donnu
06:19<__ln__>@seen Darkvater
06:19<@DorpsGek>__ln__: Darkvater was last seen in #openttd 2 years, 22 weeks, 1 day, 22 hours, 40 minutes, and 58 seconds ago: <Darkvater> good ol' days :)
06:19<@planetmaker>http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/git/newmap.git <-- newmaparray
06:20<NGC3982>That might be the best suited last-said sentance ever.
06:24<__ln__>*sentence
06:28<NGC3982>Oh, i should know that one.
06:31<NGC3982>http://i.imgur.com/sCP6s.pn
06:31<NGC3982>http://i.imgur.com/sCP6s.png *
06:31<NGC3982>By the way, can you see what is wrong here?
06:31<NGC3982>The error sign tells me i can't set the left station as an order.
06:31<NGC3982>Oh wait
06:31<NGC3982>Never mind.
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06:33<Eddi|zuHause>you cannot go to terminal stops with articulated vehicles
06:34<Eddi|zuHause>also that is "right", not "left"
06:35<NGC3982>Nothing is going my way today.
06:44<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=2.2.2002-066rcppz.jpg <-- my chinese is a little weak, but i think this means "don't drink and walk on the tracks", or something :p
06:51<NGC3982>Hehe
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07:19<Simonn>hello
07:19<Simonn>is there any mod so that you can add more "layers" to the world?
07:19<Simonn>Like dig under sea level?
07:19<Simonn>I'm having a tunnel problem
07:20<__ln__>impossible
07:20<Simonn>:(
07:20<Simonn>are you certain?
07:20<Simonn>I mean people dig under sea level all the time
07:21<__ln__>of course i'm not certain, i'm just expressing my guesses and opinions as absolute truths.
07:21<@planetmaker>the game doesn't implement height levels below sea level
07:21<__ln__>Simonn: which people?
07:21<@planetmaker>there's somewhere a patch out there. But it's quite a hack
07:22<Simonn>sooooo..... you don't recommend the patch?
07:22<Simonn>You know... the subway people
07:22<@planetmaker>Sea can be either bridged. Or use ships to transport stuff over water tiles. Or terraform loads to build rails nevertheless
07:22<@planetmaker>I recommend unmodified openttd. At least in this respect ;-)
07:23<Simonn>yeah but I have some tunnels under my city going north-south
07:23<Simonn>and I want to add more tunnels under the city east-west
07:23<Simonn>so I thought add these at -2
07:23<Simonn>and the other tunnels -1
07:23<Simonn>but not possibruuu :(?
07:26<@planetmaker>there's no height -1 ;-) The lowest height is sea level. Which is height 0
07:26<@planetmaker>so it depends on which height your town is located at
07:29<__ln__>Simonn: you will have to play Locomotion if you like to build tunnels below sealevel.
07:29<Simonn>lol nah not changing game lol :p
07:29<Simonn>I just have my world set up supercool :(
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07:36<Simonn>hi Supercheese
07:38<__ln__>why doesn't any developer nowadays say "impossible, you'd have to rewrite half of the game" anymore, when someone has a feature request?
07:39<Simonn>2012 man
07:39<Simonn>everythings possible
07:40<__ln__>like building a tunnel below sealevel?
07:40<@planetmaker>that kind of statement is not true. Re-writing half the game *is* feasible ;-) But... neither fast. Nor necessarily what we want (in the particular way requested)
07:40<@planetmaker>__ln__, a new map array surely could also allow tunnels below sea level. Or even allow water at different depth - which could be used to enhance gameplay with ships.
07:41<@planetmaker>e.g. thinking of coasters vs. ocean steamer
07:41<Simonn>I want my name in the game credits though
07:41<Simonn>for the idea
07:41<Simonn>& stuff
07:41<__ln__>Simonn: the below sealevel idea?
07:41<Simonn>sure
07:41<@planetmaker>which we have partially already in NewGRF specs with the canal speed fraction, e.g. different speeds on sea water vs. river / canal water
07:42<__ln__>Simonn: it wasn't your idea
07:42<@planetmaker>lol, Simonn
07:42<@planetmaker>you're truely funny
07:42<@planetmaker>you're about 5 years late for that idea to be original. If even then
07:42<@planetmaker>Besidest he work is implementing it. Not spawning "funny" ideas
07:43<__ln__>it most certainly isn't an original idea since Locomotion was released... and it probably isn't original since the channel tunnel was built.
07:43<Simonn>guys i'm full of ideas
07:43<@planetmaker>good for you. Work to make them become reality. Then let's talk about credits again
07:44<Simonn>=(
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08:36<NGC3982>http://i.imgur.com/d3FYe.png
08:36*NGC3982 is in love with tiles.
08:49*peter1138 is in love with tits
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08:51<NGC3982>Second.
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09:36<Simonn>http://picpaste.com/pics/SimonPort_International__28th_Oct_2049_1-UirGOMTT.1347888871.png
09:36<Simonn>this is correct right?
09:36<Simonn>I mean this will work... a bridge going over a tunnel like this?
09:40<@Belugas>hello
09:42<Eddi|zuHause>why shouldn't it work?
09:43<Eddi|zuHause>but i would remove the Xes between the bridges and the tunnels
09:43<Eddi|zuHause>they do more harm than good
09:57<Simonn>why? :p
09:57<Simonn>what harm can they do?
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10:42<Simonn>how to transfer
10:42<Simonn>but load again after?
10:43<Simonn>like I have a hub with 4 railroad tracks to it, with each 5 stations
10:43<Simonn>I want the trains to load at the hub, go non stop to the last station, fully unload, and then on its way back load everything it can, and to transfer at the hub again
10:45<Eddi|zuHause>transfer&load does not work
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11:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: zuu * r24530 /trunk/src/textbuf.cpp: -Fix [#5203] (r24521): Ctrl+backspace/delete could remove too many characters (sbr)
11:56<Zuu>Good morning CIA-1 :-)
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11:57<Sacro>\o/
11:58<Zuu>The commit was made about 40 minutes ago.
11:59<Sacro>so?
12:00<__ln__>40 minutes ago central european time.
12:01*Zuu assumed that CIA-1 was late because it was asleep. Thus the "good morning" :-p
12:04<fjb>Do minutes have a different lenght in other time zones?
12:06<Eddi|zuHause>maybe the relativistic effect of earth's rotation :)
12:07*fjb imagines one time zone rotating faster than the other.
12:08<NGC3982>They don't.
12:08<fjb>Really?
12:09<NGC3982>Timezones are placed along the rotational vektor
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>that was kinda part of the joke :)
12:09<NGC3982>Though, part of timezones experience small differences due to relativistic effects.
12:09*NGC3982 is really out of context here
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12:34<Eddi|zuHause>http://twitpic.com/3ncktp/full
12:37<andythenorth>so I need some help with BANDIT
12:37<andythenorth>auto-refit has me puzzled
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12:38<andythenorth>my intention was to have a small range of truck models, with auto-reft to all cargos
12:39<andythenorth>but some work with FISH proved that isn't possible
12:39<andythenorth>significant change to graphics at stations is unacceptable
12:39<Eddi|zuHause>sorry, no time right now
12:40<andythenorth>np :)
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12:40<@planetmaker>hm
12:41<andythenorth>so I need a new scheme for trucks
12:41<@planetmaker>@logs
12:41<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd
12:41<andythenorth>and reasons why this set should exist at all - opengfx + already has trucks
12:41<@Terkhen>when in doubt add more trucks, repeat until you get traffic jams
12:41<FLHerne>andythenorth: Autro refit within similar groups, depot-refit with cost betwen different groups?
12:42<FLHerne>And it should exist, because more trucks is always good
12:42<andythenorth>FLHerne: there's no way to enforce that
12:42<andythenorth>many cargos fit more than one group
12:42<@Terkhen>andythenorth: opengfx+ trucks are... too standard-ish
12:43<FLHerne>andythenorth: Have subtypes so they can be in multiple groups?
12:43<@Terkhen>you only have 3 real models
12:43<@Terkhen>it is quite boring
12:43<FLHerne>Or do subtypes not work that way :P
12:43<andythenorth>the original scheme for BANDIT had way too many trucks
12:43<andythenorth>I cut them down to about 1/3 the amount
12:43<FLHerne>You can NEVER have too many vehicle types :-(
12:44<andythenorth>maybe limiting cargo refits gives a reason to have more types
12:44<FLHerne>Both :P
12:45<FLHerne>Semi-trailers should definitely be refittable to everything ;-)
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12:47*andythenorth has been away
12:47<andythenorth>MP GS game later?
12:50<Bad_Brett>what's gs? by the way andy, do fishing grounds still accept passengers and mail?
12:51<Bad_Brett>well not mail
12:53<Bad_Brett>by the way, i was rather surprised when i discovered your nick while browsing lego forums :)
12:54<andythenorth>I do troll afols sometimes :P
12:54<andythenorth>I tried being a lego fan, but it didn't work for me
12:54<andythenorth>now I'm just 'person with house full of lego' instead
12:54<andythenorth>:P
12:54<andythenorth>GS is game script (NoGo)
12:55<andythenorth>fishing grounds accept PAX, stupid isn't it?
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13:02<Zuu>Bad_Brett: For example (parts) of city builder is possible to implement as a game script.
13:03<Zuu>You could check out the script "Neighbours are important" that I've published on bananas (based on original work by Yexo)
13:07<Zuu>(hmm... or if it was TB who made the original script that it is based on ..)
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13:13<Simonn>can you merge towns?
13:13<Simonn>like if they have grown into eachother
13:13<Simonn>and one cannot grow anymore because it has no space, but traffic is transported very well
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13:33<andythenorth>um
13:33<andythenorth>what's the point in having nml output nfo7 grfs?
13:33<andythenorth>does openttd stable *still* not support grf v8? :o
13:34*andythenorth is confused
13:34<FLHerne>andythenorth: I thought NML 0.3 did output grfv8?
13:34*FLHerne is still only working on one very simple grf though :P
13:34<andythenorth>there's a proposal to have it output v7, and to have that as default output
13:35<FLHerne>Oh, right. Might be a good idea :-)
13:35<andythenorth>seems to be yet another piece of fricking insanity to me
13:36<FLHerne>The problem is all the recent 'simple' grfs that don't support pre-1.2, even when there's no real reason for that :P
13:36<frosch123>andythenorth: it's about chillpp
13:36<andythenorth>right
13:36<frosch123>the question is what happens faster: nfo7 support in nml 0.6, or a successor to chillpp
13:36<andythenorth>so why cripple the platform with cruft, for stupid pp support?
13:37<andythenorth>and why bother with grf v8 at all?
13:37<frosch123>miniin was also played for 4 years after its deprecation
13:37<andythenorth>so v7 is still officially supported?
13:37<andythenorth>and not deprecated
13:37<andythenorth>?
13:38<frosch123>we even load tto savegames
13:38<frosch123>so, what do you think? :p
13:38<andythenorth>I think I should go back on holiday :)
13:38<andythenorth>I find this an increasingly bizarre place :)
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13:42<Wolf01>hello
13:42<Simonn>heloo
13:43<Simonn>http://picpaste.com/pics/SimonPort_International__2nd_May_2056-BIMGSpov.1347903760.png man congestion
13:43<Simonn>but no more room for tracks
13:43<FLHerne>Simonn: Better signalling and track layout may be the answer :P
14:00<Simonn>whats wrong with my signalling
14:00<Simonn>:(
14:02<Simonn>http://picpaste.com/pics/SimonPort_International__17th_Jul_2056-HtVgQgHA.1347904935.png
14:05<FLHerne>Well, that train crawling around a 90 degree bend in front of another one is hardly efficient ;-)
14:05<Simonn>well except for that one lil turn
14:06<Simonn>will that fix my capacity problem! no!
14:06<Simonn>I need to start disowning peoples house
14:06<Simonn>and then I feel bad
14:06<Simonn>and the local authorities too
14:07<FLHerne>Simonn: Exits of that station toward the left don't look great either, but it looks like you've bought some land to fix that?
14:07<Simonn>originally the system would had had 6 tunnels
14:08<Simonn>thats what that land was for
14:09<Simonn>but I'm sure if I would upgrade my stations to 8 tracks each
14:10<Simonn>the problem will continue
14:11<Rubidium>it just requires more creativity
14:18<Bad_Brett>This may be a really stupid question, but how do i replace trees in nml?
14:21<Rubidium>I reckon by replacing the TTD sprites
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14:23<Bad_Brett>yeah i thought so to, but didn't find them in the sprite list... let me check again
14:24<Bad_Brett>*too
14:24<Rubidium>they're somewhat spread around IIRC
14:25<Bad_Brett>alright... is there a better list than this one:
14:25<Bad_Brett>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:List_of_tiles
14:25<Bad_Brett>with the numbers
14:26<Rubidium>don't think so, and that list is merely the ground tiles
14:27<Rubidium>unless you want to read openttd source code
14:28<Rubidium>http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/browser/trunk/src/table/tree_land.h <- not really useful either
14:28<Rubidium>http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/browser/trunk/src/tree_gui.cpp#L31 <- might be less useless
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14:47<Bad_Brett>i'll check it out... thanks!
15:01<NGC3982>Just a thought
15:01<NGC3982>What happends if a two trains use a crossing signal system at the exact same tick?
15:03<Rubidium>due to the serial nature of handling this, there will always be one train that is earlier than the other
15:04<NGC3982>I see.
15:10<Bad_Brett>hmm... the trees seem to have the same numbers as they have in the original trg1r.pcx... if that's the case it will be really easy to replace them
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15:44<andythenorth>MP silicon valley game up on nightly server
15:44*andythenorth breaks channel rules :o
15:47<andythenorth>Zuu ?
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16:06<__ln__>if someone's interested in seeing a finnish national exam of german language, here: http://files.snstatic.fi/hs/2012/yo2012syksy/saksa_p.pdf
16:07<SpComb>am not interested
16:08<SpComb>I did write an eximia though
16:08<__ln__>me too, but in the "shorter" version.
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16:20<BadBrett>i understand pretty much of it actually
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16:27<@Terkhen>good night
16:41<Simonn>man
16:41<Simonn>anyone see the weeds episode?
16:42<Simonn>wow 19 pages
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18:19<Wolf01>'night all
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---Logclosed Tue Sep 18 00:00:12 2012