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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-09-23

---Logopened Sun Sep 23 00:00:10 2012
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02:57<@Terkhen>good morning
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03:38<Supercheese>good night
03:38<Supercheese>valete omnes
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04:03<kamnet>Ugh. orudge, are you awake yet? :-(
04:03<andythenorth>sea level tunnels don't flood :P
04:05<andythenorth>ha ha
04:05<kamnet>gm andy!
04:05<andythenorth>try build a depot on bulldozed sea, then building a train in it
04:09<kamnet>Not that I'd ever think to bulldoze the sea and build a depot on it, but...
04:10*andythenorth ponders a grid based, sea level evil GS
04:10<kamnet>Interesting way to randomly kill people
04:11<Rubidium>just build airports near all towns and let the airplanes full load and fly to a closest airport. Then once you think you have enough planes, destroy all airports (the closed one last)
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04:12<kamnet>Wow... you guys are sadistic!!
04:13<Rubidium>then you can say the sky is on fire as all planes will explode at once ;)
04:15<andythenorth>Rubidium: new GS name: Body Count
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04:15<andythenorth>5 years to achieve n deaths
04:16<@Alberth>maybe I should a bit until andy has cooled down again
04:17<andythenorth>Rubidium's idea, not mine :P
04:17<andythenorth>he supplies the sick and twisted, I just provide the name ;)
04:18<kamnet>Reminds me of playing Grand Theft Auto
04:18<andythenorth>the game lacks ship sinking
04:18<kamnet>back when the goal was to steal a bunch of cars.
04:18<@Alberth>09:00:04 * andythenorth ponders a grid based, sea level evil GS <-- sure of that?
04:18<kamnet>I actually had a few custom cars I made for it
04:18<andythenorth>Alberth: oh yes sorry :P
04:19*Alberth hugs andy
04:19<andythenorth>wonder if we could make Bomber Man with GS
04:20*Rubidium is already bored for today
04:20<@Alberth>wasn't there a topic about this stuff somewhen?
04:21<@Alberth>about making things explode and so
04:21<kamnet>I really want to go to bed, family reunion today, but e-mail I got this morning has me paranoid and I can't log into my zernebok account to verify!
04:21<andythenorth>how do vehicles crash? Is it a flag?
04:22<andythenorth>and do all vehicles have it?
04:22<andythenorth>and can it be exposed to GS arbitrarily?
04:22<@Alberth>kamnet: don't check email just before going to bed, as you cannot reply on it anyway :p
04:22<kamnet>Just park 'em on the railroad tracks
04:22<@Alberth>andythenorth: it's a state afaik
04:22<kamnet>Well I wasn't checking e-mail. I was goofing off on Facebook when the server owner contacted me
04:23*andythenorth ponders various war-themed GS
04:23<andythenorth>'meh' to "war is not in scope"
04:24<kamnet>Alternate working title: Suicide is Painless
04:26<andythenorth>could use existing disasters
04:26<andythenorth>to make a long-play version of Space Invaders
04:26<andythenorth>'play' by delivering weapons to the front line
04:26<Rubidium>ship as much cubes as possible to a storage location ;)
04:26<Rubidium>you got a little under one year
04:27<andythenorth>or you get assimilated
04:27<kamnet>Huzzah! Owen answered me. Now to get this fxied
04:30<Rubidium>andythenorth: not the cubes I was thinking about
04:31<Kjetil>These are not the cubes you are looking for ?
04:33<andythenorth>Rubidium: so which cubes?
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04:52<Wolf01>hello o/
04:52<Zuu>Hello Wolf01
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06:07<andythenorth>so GS MP game or what?
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06:13<Zuu>I was looking for what others have done regarding landscaping and AIs, and found this old thread. I still remember it and it would have been neat if it was available as an AI lib.
06:15<Zuu>My best found so far is some code that originate from NoCab that apparently SimpleAI uses that is said to be able to be given the north tile, width and height and determine the target height of land that reduces the cost/consequences of landscaping.
06:22<@Alberth>does he compute the solution brute force, or does he do a minimization search?
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06:23<Kjetil>He does it in the cloud
06:23<Kjetil></pointy haired manager>
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06:29<@Alberth>optimized trial and error :)
06:31*andythenorth avoids signing into a lego forum :P
06:32<andythenorth>I was only going to troll
06:32<andythenorth>someone just mentioned that lego is a toy
06:32<andythenorth>"omg, wtf do you mean lego is a toy?!?!?"
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06:33<andythenorth>"are you telling me that it's not a serious hobby for grown up men who want to create miniature worlds? You have destroyed my life's work" :P
06:33<planetmaker>lego is serious. It's a serious disaster, if you build a super star destroyer and the half-finished wing crashes into its parts again
06:33<planetmaker>(build time for the whole, three people together: 5 hours)
06:34<andythenorth>shouldn't drink while building ;)
06:34<andythenorth>don't tell me that beer wasn't the cause :P
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06:34<planetmaker>I won't tell you. Might be awkwardly close to the truth ;-)
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06:36<andythenorth>MP GS?
06:36<andythenorth>I have an hour or two
06:37<andythenorth>Alberth: Zuu planetmaker Rubidium Hirundo Yexo V453000 et al?
06:37<planetmaker>I've an appointment with a long bow
06:38<planetmaker>I started the server for you though
06:38<planetmaker>it was offline still
06:39<planetmaker>it might now be running the title game or a randome 256² one
06:39<planetmaker>but you (or others) know the commands :-)
06:40<@peter1138>playing a game?
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06:42<@Terkhen>andythenorth: sorry, I'm coding :P
06:43<@Alberth>I am quite busy too, sorry
06:43<@peter1138>i'm busy doing nothing, working the whole day through
06:44<@peter1138>trying to find lots of things not to do
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06:51<Yexo>good afternoon
06:55<andythenorth>what is this 'coding' you speak of?
06:56*andythenorth has not done any 'coding' for a long time
06:56<@Terkhen>andythenorth: "make scenarios suck less WRT NewGRFs" code
06:56<@Terkhen>it means that I'm smashing keys until things work like I want them to
06:57<andythenorth>maybe I should code something
06:57*Alberth pushes a few sandwiches towards Terkhen
06:57<andythenorth>maybe I should release FIRS 1.0
06:57<andythenorth>and then start on FIRS 2
06:57<@Alberth>we don't want you to starve while coding!
06:58<@Terkhen>Alberth: thanks but no need to worry, I'll leave the keyboard soon to prepare something to eat :P
06:58<@Alberth>I thought we didn't get a FIRS 1, or am I misteken with CHIPS?
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06:59<andythenorth>there was no FIRS 1 yet
07:00<andythenorth>I am very decided on changing supplies behaviour
07:00<andythenorth>and I don't want to keep old code around
07:00<andythenorth>so maybe I ship FIRS 1 with old behaviour
07:00<andythenorth>or shall I just not bother with that? :)
07:01<@Alberth>hmm, perhaps it was FISH then
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07:02<andythenorth>FISH there's no 1.0
07:03<@Alberth>importance of nice round numbers is overrated :)
07:05<andythenorth>Alberth: could I persuade you to any more NoConomy thoughts?
07:05<andythenorth>I am looking at FIRS tickets
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07:06<andythenorth>^ I can't increase the number of industries, because it's fixed by openttd
07:06<@Alberth>I am somewhat working on it, but without much succes so far
07:07<@Alberth>in fact I am doing code changes in that area in the hope to somewhat get an understanding of it
07:08<andythenorth>I have some understanding of parts of industry_cmd.cpp
07:08<andythenorth>I've read / fooled with most of it in the last few years
07:08<@Alberth>I am changing the newgrf_* source files
07:09<@Alberth>ie I think a callback should be added so newgrf can have control in some way
07:09<@Alberth>(or at least partly :p )
07:10<andythenorth>so there is already probability control
07:10<@Alberth>that's for industry types, this is a general setting imho
07:11<@Alberth>hmm, can we have multiple industry newgrfs at the same time?
07:12<Yexo>in theory yes, in practice not
07:13<Yexo>true, I was considering ECS as one, but it's indeed multiple grfs
07:13<@Alberth>ok, that is for added fun :)
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07:28<FLHerne>Would a power-station addon to FIRS be useful/practical?
07:29<andythenorth>it would be easy to code
07:29<andythenorth>why not test it?
07:29*FLHerne was considering one as a thing to do after simple objecttiles :-)
07:29<FLHerne>That was sort of the idea :P
07:29<andythenorth>there are spare industry IDs, you add no cargo
07:29<andythenorth>just reintroduce default power station
07:29<andythenorth>grf order might matter, not sure
07:29<andythenorth>industry ID might matter too
07:30<FLHerne>I wanted incinerators and wind plants too :P
07:30<CIA-1>OpenTTD: zuu * r24552 /trunk/src/ (ai/ai_gui.cpp misc_cmd.cpp): -Fix (r24537): Unpause do no longer continue scripts
07:36<@peter1138>What's that in English?
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07:53<FLHerne>andythenorth: You can't finish CHIPS! It doesn't have OGFX platforms yet :-(
07:55<FLHerne>Did I miss those :-)
07:55<andythenorth>what are they?
07:56<FLHerne>Mud platforms still looked incongruous next to many industries when using OGFX, last tim* I rr784e xhecked
07:56<Yexo>FLHerne: that's because chips uses graphics from FIRS
07:56*FLHerne needs to keep the rat off the keyboard while typing :P
07:56<FLHerne>Did FIRS get changed not to use OGFX mud tiles, then?
07:57<andythenorth>no, why would I do that?
07:57<andythenorth>they suck
07:57<andythenorth>or do I misunderstand?
07:57<andythenorth>I never play with OGFX, so I have no idea what the issue is ;)
07:58<FLHerne>andythenorth: Unless you've changed it, FIRS industries often use the baseset mudtile, but CHIPS platforms only match the TTD mud
07:58<andythenorth>oh right
07:58<andythenorth>I don't know how to fix that
07:58<andythenorth>use the proper base set
07:58<FLHerne>So mud platforms only match FIRS industries when using the old baseset :P
07:59<FLHerne>andythenorth: OGFX looks nicer :-)
07:59<Yexo>wouldn't it be possible to use the baseset mud tile in chips too?
07:59<andythenorth>no, it's a reprise of that issue where we can't sanely use ground tiles
07:59<andythenorth>same reason we can't make a grass tile
07:59<andythenorth>platforms have to be overlays, not underlays
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07:59<Yexo>oh, right :(
08:00<andythenorth>unless you can use the 'rail over mud' sprite, but I think that has railtype issues :P
08:00<andythenorth>making a grass tile would be nice :P
08:00<andythenorth>but CHIPS is done ;)
08:00<FLHerne>andythenorth: Draw mud/grass in both common varieties, then add a parameter :P
08:00<andythenorth>no that's stupid
08:00<Yexo>doesn't work for multiplayer
08:01<Yexo>and it'd need another set of graphics for zBase
08:01<Yexo>and another for every new baseset
08:01<andythenorth>and parameters are easily forgotten
08:01<andythenorth>and they can't be changed in game
08:01<andythenorth>and the FIRS tile drawing is horribly complicated
08:01<FLHerne>Yexo: Fix OTTD then :P
08:01<andythenorth>just don't care?
08:01<andythenorth>is easier?
08:01<Yexo>FLHerne: that'd be the proper solution indeed
08:02<andythenorth>it's easy to get the original graphics
08:02<Yexo>but not legal
08:02<Yexo>and not as easy as opengfx
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08:15<FLHerne>andythenorth: But the original graphics are ugly :-(
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08:29<Elukka>i think we can safely assume the typical user would use opengfx
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08:31<Elukka>i wouldn't worry too much about FIRS/CHIPS on opengfx though
08:31<Elukka>looks fine to me
08:37<Zuu>Hmm coding for OpenTTD keep distracting me from my scripts. :-p
08:38<Yexo>why do you think I haven't worked on AdmiralAI for a few years? :p
08:57<@peter1138>very easy to get the original graphics. i put the cd in my cdrom drive... i think it's legal.
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08:58<Zuu>Regarding how to make AIs aware of goals, I'm more and more think towards adding something SCP-like in the API.
08:58<Zuu>If an AI know that there are only 3 cargos that count towards goals, then it could give humans a bigger challenge if the AI focus on those cargos too.
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09:01<andythenorth>lo Fremen
09:01<andythenorth>lo frosch123 oops :P
09:01<frosch123>just say quak :)
09:02<frosch123>hiho andy
09:09<Zuu>It could possible be handled a bit more simple than SCP. For most goal-related stuff it is probably easier that GSs are allowed to expose data that AIs can read than requiring GSs and AIs to implement a assynchronus communication protocol.
09:19<@Alberth>GSs being allowed to expose data that AIs can read is an asynchronous communication protocol :p
09:21<@Alberth>a protocol is just a number of common messages that have meaning :)
09:21<Zuu>Yea, but the SCP-way of doing that was thet GS would scan for incomming requests, parse them and compose a response that is sent back to the AI. The AI in turn need to scan for incomming messages to see when the response is returned.
09:21<@Alberth>that sounds quite complicated indeed :p
09:22<Zuu>In easier use cases GSs could possible just put data in a hash table or so that is publicly readable for AIs.
09:23<andythenorth>la la
09:23<Zuu>there would still need to be a mutal agreement on the protocol, but the implementation should be easier for AIs/GSs.
09:23*andythenorth rejected about 20 FIRS tickets
09:23<andythenorth>only 37 left :P
09:24<@Alberth>I wonder whether we'd need some common interface both for humans and AIs. The former would be shown in the goal window then
09:24<@Alberth>instead of the textual coupling we have now
09:25<@Alberth>andythenorth: give the remaining milestone 2.0 :p
09:25<andythenorth>36 issues left :P
09:25<Zuu>If the intreface towards humans is more strictly controlled by the API than allowing free text goals, then that information could be exposed to AIs.
09:26<@Alberth>Zuu: exactly
09:26<Zuu>This approach needs more API updates as GS authors want to do more and more.
09:26<andythenorth>I should remove the 'prevent closure | allow closure' parameter from FIRS
09:27<andythenorth>and just refuse to allow closure until closure is fixed
09:27<andythenorth>and remove the code that tries to handle closure better
09:28<@Alberth>Zuu: yeah, but otherwise you have a ad-hoc interface between GSs and AIs that will never work for random GS with random AI, I think
09:28<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r24553 /trunk/src/vehicle_gui.cpp: -Add: Separate the 'available vehicles' from the other buttons in the vehicle list.
09:28<@Alberth>nice, we're spreading dev-talk across two channels :p
09:28<Zuu>On the other hand, I suspect that noone will want to make an AI that handle all specialized goals out there. However, being able to adopt the AI to focus more on certain cargos/connections may be in the scope of what is relativly easy to accomplish for AI authors.
09:31<andythenorth>Alberth: ^ that is an interesting case for something like "tell OpenTTD that this industry is unhappy"
09:31<andythenorth>I've rejected it because it makes FIRS parameters even more complex
09:33<@Alberth>not sure rejection is the right action here, but yeah :)
09:34<andythenorth>no-one is ever going to fix it ;)
09:35<@Alberth>I'd move it to version 2 or whatever next major version that you are going to make, with ultra-low priority
09:35<andythenorth>I want tickets to go away
09:35<andythenorth>it's depressing looking at years of work ahead of me :P
09:35<andythenorth>and no-one else will do them
09:35<andythenorth>99% certainly
09:35<andythenorth>I kind of need to stop making newgrfs
09:36<@Alberth>but it's so addictive :p
09:36<andythenorth>I'd rather play GS
09:47<andythenorth>so the game just needs to build more industries for FIRS ;/
09:48<andythenorth>it's short by about 30%-100%
09:50<andythenorth>increasing proability of one type (obviously) just screws with availability of other types :P
09:50<@Alberth>depends on the map size :)
09:50<@Alberth>doesn't build more either
09:52<andythenorth>'industries high' produces acceptable results
09:52<andythenorth>but only just :P
09:52<andythenorth>maybe I should patch my game and change those constants :P
09:52<andythenorth>maybe those constants just need to be variable, same as water level :P
09:53<FLHerne>Is it possible to add more cargo acceptance to existing housesets by newgrf?
09:54<FLHerne>As in, a third-party grf modifying other ones :P
09:54<andythenorth>not sanely no
09:54<Zuu>Alberth: If the task of deciding a mutal protocol between AIs and GSs are not handled by the API but left for AI/GS authors to handle, then an AI will generally not understand a random GS.
09:54<FLHerne>Aw :-(
09:55*FLHerne would like to add a 'power' cargo, which would be used by everything :P
09:56<andythenorth>add a recieving town industry
09:56<andythenorth>then write a town growth GS to use it
09:57<andythenorth>33 FIRS tickets left :(
09:57<andythenorth>this sucks :(
09:57<FLHerne>That sounds like a good idea :-)
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10:00*andythenorth wonders whether to delete BANDIT
10:00<andythenorth>I don't see the point of a truck set right now
10:00<andythenorth>opengfx + rvs exists
10:00<andythenorth>for GS, it's enough
10:01<andythenorth>and auto-refit is impossible to provide for trucks
10:01<FLHerne>andythenorth: There's never enough RV variety
10:02<@Terkhen>why? OpenGFX+ RV has autorefit for trucks
10:02<FLHerne>And why doesn't auto-refit work for trucks, again?
10:03<andythenorth>because the graphics will change appearance at stations, which is stupid
10:03<andythenorth>and it's impossible to prevent whilst still providing a sane number of trucks in buy menu
10:04<andythenorth>the only solution is lots of spam in the buy menu 'box truck', 'tank truck', 'tipper truck', 'flat truck' etc
10:04<andythenorth>no other vehicle type has this problem
10:04<andythenorth>it's not a limitation in openttd spec
10:04<andythenorth>it's just impossible
10:05<Eddi|zuHause>why is it different than for ships or for wagons?
10:05<FLHerne>andythenorth: Container trucks make sense to change appearance :P
10:05<FLHerne>Also, box trucks all look the same whatever's in them, as do tankers and open hopperbox ones :P
10:06<andythenorth>it's a non issue for ships, most ships look the same
10:06<FLHerne>I don't mind buymenu spam too much, anyway :P
10:06<andythenorth>it's a non-issue for trains because trains are made up of many vehicles
10:06<FLHerne>You can't get worse the eGRVTS, at any rate... :-(
10:06<andythenorth>you can
10:06<andythenorth>I could prove it, easily
10:07<FLHerne>Only by adding a larger variety of vehiclea
10:07<@Terkhen>andythenorth: just disallow all refits requiring a sprite change from autorefit
10:07<@Terkhen>those require a depot
10:07<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: if it works for ships and not for trucks, then you did not abstract away enough properties of trucks
10:07<andythenorth>Terkhen: tried, it's impossible
10:07<FLHerne>eGRVTS has the worst ratio of [interesting variation]:[menu spam] possible
10:08<andythenorth>I already wrote and removed code to try and prevent refits across body types
10:08<andythenorth>it's not possible
10:08<andythenorth>I might just rm the set
10:08<FLHerne>andythenorth: Why not?
10:08<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: three truck types, bulk, liquid, other
10:08<andythenorth>I'm bored of the idea
10:08<@Terkhen>andythenorth: do you mean that the code is impossible? ogfx+rv already groups cargos in different refit groups, it's certainly possible
10:08<andythenorth>how do I delete a devzone project?
10:08<andythenorth>Terkhen: it's impossible to prevent refits that cross boundaries
10:09<FLHerne>That's not 'impossible', that's 'lack of enthusiasm' :P
10:09<Eddi|zuHause>allow autorefit between all bulk, between all liquid (and not bulk) and all except (bulk or liquid)
10:09<@Terkhen>the design might be complicated, but it should be doable too with just a few truck models
10:09<@Terkhen>andythenorth: why?
10:09<andythenorth>because you can break orders with it
10:09<andythenorth>due to cargos that are a union of classes etc
10:09<Eddi|zuHause>the design is really simple, actually
10:09<andythenorth>it's provable
10:09<FLHerne>andythenorth: Assume your users aren't idiots :P
10:09<@Terkhen>just take into account those cases
10:10<andythenorth>FLHerne: the users aren't idiots, the game fucks them if I do this
10:10<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you can handle unions if you give priority to one
10:10<andythenorth>it's trivial to create a chain that ends up stuck
10:10<FLHerne>As long as you make sure that A->B and B->A work, it's fine
10:10<andythenorth>you can do A - > B -> C -> D, then fail at A
10:10<andythenorth>now your game is broken
10:10<Eddi|zuHause>not if you say "bulk trumps liquid trumps all others"
10:11<Eddi|zuHause>then you can't do A->B in the first place
10:11<FLHerne>Don't subtypes let you do: [B refitted from/refittable to A] and [B refitted from/refittable to C] separately?
10:11<Eddi|zuHause>if A is "liquid", and B is "bulk, liquid", then you disallow refit, even though both are liquid
10:12<andythenorth>I think it could be done with a lookup table of all known cargos
10:12<FLHerne>Then you can refit A<->B and B<->C, but not A->B->C?
10:12<Eddi|zuHause>because bulk trumps liquid
10:12<@Terkhen>or just break specific bugs by checking the cargos causing them directly via cargo label
10:12<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: all that is needed is that all unions form proper partitions.
10:13<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: isn't that baffling?
10:13<andythenorth>so my refrigerated truck won't refit fruit because fruit is bulk?
10:13<FLHerne>Then you can have coal<->solid chemicals and oil<->liquid chemicals, say, but not coal<->liquid chemicals :P
10:14<Eddi|zuHause>{bulk and union with any other class}, {liquid and union with any other class, except bulk}, {all other unions without bulk or liquid}
10:14<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: yes, that would be the case
10:14<FLHerne>My idea is better :P
10:14<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: didn't we try htis already and prove that it's broken? I had code for it iirc
10:14<FLHerne>It doesn't have that problem :P
10:14<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i don't know your code
10:14<andythenorth>frosch123 ^ can you remember why I couldn't have autorefit for trucks? :P
10:14<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but there is no flaw in the theory
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10:15<FLHerne>Admittedly, my idea might not work. Can someone please tell me why not before I get too obsessive? :D
10:15*FLHerne draws diagram
10:15<frosch123>andythenorth: i would guess you did not want to code it :p
10:16<andythenorth>I think it's because autorefit is stupid
10:16<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: if the fruit thing bothers you, you can additionally say "refrigerated trumps bulk and liquid"
10:16<andythenorth>if you try and restrict it
10:16<Eddi|zuHause>then you have 4 partitions
10:17<Eddi|zuHause>and fruit will always go in refrigerated, never in bulk
10:17<andythenorth>the issue came up with FISH, there were only two cases, tanker and not-tanker
10:17<andythenorth>so what was the issue?
10:17*andythenorth has limited memory
10:18<frosch123>andythenorth: take the logs from 2012-07-28
10:18<andythenorth>goal: allow autorefit of any cargo that doesn't change graphics
10:18<frosch123>there is some talk about autorefit and bandit
10:19<andythenorth>go to A, refit coal. Go to B, refit milk. All is well.
10:20<andythenorth>ach, can't remember the issue :P
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10:21<FLHerne>Whoops, browser crashed :-(
10:21<FLHerne>Very bad diagram:
10:23<andythenorth>there's a proof in here apparently that autorefit breaks orders
10:23*FLHerne wants to know why it's a stupid idea :P
10:23<andythenorth>around 10:57
10:23<andythenorth>FLHerne: what is it ?
10:24<FLHerne>The stupid diagram?
10:24<FLHerne>My attempt to explain my refitting proposal :P
10:24<FLHerne>Drawn very quickly in a bad image editor
10:25*FLHerne draws a neater version with colours :-)
10:25<Zuu>Even an ascii art table would look better :-)
10:26<andythenorth>the issue is that autorefit is fucked
10:26<andythenorth>I recall now
10:26<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the code for my theory is actually quite simple: "switch(hasbit(current_cargp, CC_<something>) + hasbit(new_cargo, CC_<something>)) { 0: chain to next check, 2: return allow refit, default: return disallow refit }"
10:26<andythenorth>it allows the creation of invalid orders with no warning
10:27<andythenorth>and there's 'load any available cargo'
10:27<andythenorth>which throws a bomb into any set of orders
10:28<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: "load any available" would be quite useful with cargodist
10:28<Eddi|zuHause>you have a set of mixed trains for your trunk line, and manage the feeders
10:28<andythenorth>so with FISH 2, what did I do?
10:28*andythenorth looks
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10:29<Eddi|zuHause>i agree mostly it's dangerous if the cargo doesn't know where it's going
10:29<andythenorth>I'm not worried about that
10:30<andythenorth>but when used with the 'allow autorefit' cb, it's very dangerous to orders
10:30<andythenorth>it can break explicit orders trivially
10:30<andythenorth>and there's no warning or error message to player
10:30<Eddi|zuHause>no idea what you're getting at
10:31<andythenorth>at A you allow 'load available'
10:31<andythenorth>at B you want an explicit cargo
10:32<andythenorth>newgrf author has tried to provide some handling of autorefit cb
10:32<andythenorth>refit may or may not work at B
10:32<andythenorth>depending on what cargo you loaded at A
10:32<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but the order list cannot check that. because it can be shared between different vehicle types
10:32<andythenorth>your suggestion might well prevent that otoh
10:33<Eddi|zuHause>my suggestion makes sure that autorefits are symmetric, yes
10:33<andythenorth>[not the shared orders issue, but the symmetric]
10:33<Eddi|zuHause>that was the entire point of the suggestion
10:33<andythenorth>for FISH 2 I solved it differently
10:34<andythenorth>ships can autorefit to any of their refittable cargos
10:34<andythenorth>this is the only valid solution imho
10:34<Eddi|zuHause>be symmetric, and disallow changing graphics in the process
10:34<andythenorth>my route is symmetry by blunt force ;)
10:34<andythenorth>and no (significant) graphics change when refitting
10:35<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but you had some unreasonable disgust against having separate vehicles
10:35<andythenorth>it's fine with ships
10:35<andythenorth>tankers / general cargo / mixed ships / ferries
10:35<Eddi|zuHause>i'm still not sure why it works for 2 ship types, but not for 4 truck types
10:35<andythenorth>let's see
10:35<Eddi|zuHause>(refrigerated, bulk, liquid, other)
10:36<andythenorth>I think I should lose a lot of the detailed ideas in BANDIT
10:36<andythenorth>there were going to be lots of body and livery variations
10:36<andythenorth>e.g. different tank colours for different liquid cargos etc
10:36<Eddi|zuHause>that's what i meant with "you did not abstract away enough properties"
10:37<andythenorth>it's the danger of a pixel generator :P
10:37<andythenorth>previously the sheer effort of drawing would have killed variety stone dead :P
10:37<andythenorth>flat, box, tank, tipper
10:37<andythenorth>4 types
10:38<CIA-1>OpenTTD: zuu * r24554 /trunk/src/ (ai/ai_gui.cpp ai/ai_gui.hpp hotkeys.cpp): -Add: Hotkeys for widgets in AI Debug window
10:38<Eddi|zuHause>why flat and tipper?
10:38<Eddi|zuHause>they both carry bulk?
10:38<andythenorth>ask the nerds :P
10:38<andythenorth>they won't like logs and tractors travelling in tippers
10:38<Eddi|zuHause>go with flat, and put tipper in HEQS
10:38<andythenorth>no grain truck? :o
10:39<Eddi|zuHause>put all bulk in flat
10:39<Eddi|zuHause>(with side barriers)
10:39<andythenorth>you might have a point
10:40*FLHerne made it neater and added colours
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>side barriers may easily be replaced with stakes when refitting between wood/steel and bulk
10:41<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: +1 ish
10:41<andythenorth>FLHerne: but what does it mean? :)
10:41<FLHerne>Allow autorefit along the rows only, don't allow (say) Food -> Paper -> Fruit :-)
10:41<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: and for the "nerds", there are still the logging trucks in HEQS
10:42<andythenorth>FLHerne so a big lookup table of cargo labels....
10:42<FLHerne>Am I correct that subtypes or whatever let you do that?
10:42<FLHerne>Ah well, big table then yes :P
10:42<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I could move the heavy trucks entirely into HEQS
10:42<andythenorth>and make BANDIT more limited
10:42<andythenorth>I'll see
10:42<FLHerne>So make the distinction between Food (fridged) and Food(liquid)
10:43<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: too fiddly
10:43<andythenorth>FLHerne: only with a massive massive lookup table that would have to be maintained for every cargo
10:43<FLHerne>But would be shiny :D
10:43<FLHerne>Are you sure it needs a huge table? :P
10:44*FLHerne looks at stuff
10:44*andythenorth has cast iron certainty on the basis of no considering the issue
10:44<andythenorth>prove me wrong
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10:44<FLHerne>So what are subtypes for? :P
10:44<andythenorth>be aware that the autorefit cb fails silently
10:44*FLHerne missed the point somewhere probably ;-)
10:44<andythenorth>it gives no feedback, and isn't tested when setting orders
10:44<andythenorth>so it's trivial to set invalid orders
10:45<andythenorth>the autorefit cb also permits evil stuff like 'fail to refit if it's March'
10:45<andythenorth>with no warning to player
10:45<andythenorth>maybe I should include that for April 1
10:45<andythenorth>that will shaft your network once a year :P
10:45*FLHerne does think it should check when setting orders :P
10:47<FLHerne>Perhaps I should try writing a useless vehicle grf to test that kind of thing :-)
10:47<andythenorth>it can't check when setting orders
10:47<FLHerne>It should anyway :P
10:47<andythenorth>the cargo type in the vehicle is non-deterministic
10:47<andythenorth>it can't :P
10:47<andythenorth>it has nothing to check against
10:48<andythenorth>we might be talking at cross purposes about that specific point :P
10:49<FLHerne>As long as A->B is always possible if B->A is, what's the problem?
10:49<FLHerne>If A->B->C works but C->A doesn't, that's silly :P
10:51<andythenorth>it's fine if you have a massive lookup table
10:51<andythenorth>and never use classes or such
10:51<@Terkhen>that's why I suggested labels :P
10:51<@Terkhen>it defeats the point of cargo classes, though
10:52<andythenorth>if I solve this for BANDIT, I'll do it similar to FISH, and similar to Eddi's suggestions
10:52<andythenorth>allow any refittable cargo
10:52<@Terkhen>but given that new cargos are introduced so slowly, IMO just using a label based scheme is a good solution
10:53<@Terkhen>at least for stuff like OpenGFX+ NewGRFs, which you can expect to be supported and updated quickly :P
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10:54<andythenorth>for Europe, all general cargo trucks could be tilt :P
10:54<andythenorth>tilt trailers basically allow carriage of most non-liquid, non-pourable cargos
10:55<andythenorth>but not used in US
10:55<Zuu>hehe, sholud OpenTTD get length restrictions for RVs that vary over the map? :-p
10:55<andythenorth>perhaps :)
10:55<Zuu>And did someone create the track set with different voltages?
10:55<frosch123>we sould add load time penalties if the rv is longer than the stop :p
10:56<andythenorth>Zuu: roadtypes :P
10:56*FLHerne demands roadtypes
10:56<Zuu>Oh, and maybe different weight restrictions too? I guess Europe standard is 40 tonnes? Or is it just the length that is shorter in most of Europe than in the north?
10:56<andythenorth>that definitely works
10:57<andythenorth>Europe varies a bit on weight
10:57<andythenorth>or weight per axle
10:57<FLHerne>Steam trams look more ridiculous every time I look at them :-(
10:57<Rubidium>frosch123: and what if you have a two 7.5 tile vehicles and a 8 tile road stop?
10:57<Rubidium>will the latter occur the penalty for the road stop being 7 tiles too short?
10:57<Rubidium>or will it wait?
10:58<Zuu>If it is smart, it will check how long time the vehicle in front will take to load. (which may be unknown), if it appears to be a quick load, it will wait. If it appears to talke long time, it could start loading. :-)
10:58<frosch123>hmm :p
10:59<frosch123>it just looked weird sending heqs 5 tile trams to a 1 tile roadstop :p
10:59<Rubidium>those trams with instaload?
10:59<Zuu>But I guess in most cases the loading penalty would be quite high if you only have a 0.5 coverage of the RV, and then waiting will be better.
10:59<andythenorth>an alternative suggestion for autorefit: forbid it
11:00<Zuu>And in the scope of penalties, perhaps only allow loading too long vehicles when they reach the front of a stop?
11:00<andythenorth>or another suggestion: it's ok for vehicles to entirely change appearance at a station
11:00<Rubidium>only if you refit from "tourist" to "hooligan"
11:00<FLHerne>andythenorth; Neither of those is good :-(
11:01<Rubidium>but then the cargo refits the train ;)
11:01<andythenorth>ho ho
11:02<andythenorth>there's no cb for refittable cargos, right?
11:02<andythenorth>it's action 0 prop only?
11:02<andythenorth>I don't mean the auto-refit cb
11:03<andythenorth>ach, maybe that achieves same thing
11:03<andythenorth>for a train I think auto-refit would be solvable with the user bits
11:04<andythenorth>set a user bit or so for body type, determined when vehicle is refitted in depot
11:04<andythenorth>then check that bit, and the cargo being refitted to for autorefit
11:04<andythenorth>all sounds a bit complicated tbh :P
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11:11<andythenorth>box truck -> express / covered cargos (mail, paper, food etc), usually small, fast
11:12<andythenorth>general truck (dropsides which can be removed for a flatbed, covered with a tarp, or stakes added for logs etc) -> any cargo except a few exclusions
11:12<andythenorth>tank truck -> liquids
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11:13<andythenorth>fridge truck is overkill
11:14<andythenorth>maybe I add dump truck...but why bother if HEQS exists?
11:15<andythenorth>redesigning HEQS 2 will be fun
11:15<andythenorth>all the tractors etc will have to go
11:15<andythenorth>as they refit anything, but change graphics
11:15<andythenorth>and the trams
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11:15<andythenorth>maybe I just rm the trams
11:16<@Terkhen>andythenorth: in which way is setting a bit different than defining refit groups with specific conditions for switching from one to another?
11:16<Zuu>But couldn't changing eg. only trailer graphics be allowed?
11:16<Zuu>That would mean that the truck drops its trailer at the station and picks up a new one.
11:17<andythenorth>Terkhen: player would set the bit by choosing the initial subtype refit, but you might be right
11:17<andythenorth>I tried limiting by current subtype in FISH
11:17<andythenorth>can't remember what I did wrong
11:18<andythenorth>trams only have 3 body types
11:19<@Terkhen>if "current cargo in group X, only allow autorefit to cargos in group X"
11:19<@Terkhen>"if current cargo is in group Y, allow autorefit for free to cargos in group Y, and for a fee to group Z"
11:19<@Terkhen>and so on
11:22<andythenorth>it's pretty hard to avoid crossing groups
11:22<andythenorth>due to cargos that go in both groups
11:22<andythenorth>e.g. load milk
11:22<andythenorth>milk is in two groups
11:23<andythenorth>box and tank
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11:23<@Terkhen>use different vehicles for tank
11:24<andythenorth>then we're back to the only solution
11:24<andythenorth>spam the buy menu with near-identical vehicles
11:24<andythenorth>I think it's the only viable route
11:24<@Terkhen>only 2 or 3 for each model probably :P
11:24<andythenorth>there are 11 trams currently, adding another 14 is ok
11:25<@Terkhen>you can also enforce a single group for cargos
11:25<andythenorth>(only 7 have cargo specific body types, and there are only 3 body types)
11:25<@Terkhen>if you are allowing a truck to refit to anything, why use a piece goods container to carry milk?
11:25<@Terkhen>a tanker is better
11:26<andythenorth>that reintroduces the changing graphics at stations issue...?
11:27<@Terkhen>why? milk would only be in the tanker group
11:27<@Terkhen>to switch from a tanker to piece goods, go to a depot
11:28<@Terkhen>you could also use subtypes too for determining cargo groups
11:28<andythenorth>you have no way of knowing current body type
11:28<andythenorth>I can't remember why subtypes doesn't work, but there's some flaw in it
11:28<@Terkhen>andythenorth: if you have a single group for all cargo, the current cargo determines the group
11:29<Zuu>If you have subtypes of the same cargo, the AI only sees one of them.
11:29<@Terkhen>milk belongs only to the tanker group -> if you are carrying milk the current group is tanker
11:29<Zuu>But I don't see how that would limit setting up autorefit boundaries.
11:30<FLHerne>Terkhen: I was suggesting that :P
11:31<FLHerne>Not the recent bit, but with subtypes :P
11:31<andythenorth>Terkhen: so fail the refit to milk if current group is not tanker?
11:34<@Terkhen>if chosen cargo is not in the same group than current cargo -> refit only allowed at depot
11:34<andythenorth>you can still setup orders for it though
11:34<andythenorth>which is painfully unintuitive to end user
11:35<@Terkhen>FLHerne: yes, this is how OpenGFX+ sets do it... although the issue is simpler because there are a lot of models of trucks/wagons
11:35<andythenorth>I have a save running here with a ship that can't follow its orders
11:35<andythenorth>and its not as simple as 'try test running the cb'
11:35<andythenorth>because 'current cargo' is non-deterministic
11:36<FLHerne>andythenorth: That shouldn't matter, if refits are sane :P
11:36<andythenorth>no no
11:36<andythenorth>by sane, you mean 'this vehicle is a tanker, therefore only refits to liquid cargos' etc.
11:37<@Terkhen>andythenorth: if you mean that OpenTTD allows you to choose any refittable cargo for orders disregarding callbacks (which as you mention is probably impossible anyways because it can't know the current cargo) I don't think that there is a way to solve that problem NewGRF wise
11:37<FLHerne>If you can autorefit, however indirectly, to something you should be able to autorefit directly back :P
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11:37*Terkhen does not know how OpenTTD handles autorefit orders
11:37<FLHerne>If it doesn't need a graphics change to get to whatever cargo, it shouldn't look silly changing back either
11:38<andythenorth>that rules out autorefit for current HEQS trams
11:38<andythenorth>or the introduction of 300% more trams ;)
11:39<andythenorth>Terkhen: 3 links
11:39<andythenorth>that was one solution I tried with subtypes
11:39<andythenorth>it fails horribly :)
11:39<FLHerne>andythenorth: What causes it to fail?
11:40<andythenorth>try it
11:40<andythenorth>have a look at ship 1
11:40<andythenorth>send it to depot and look at the refits it can have
11:40<andythenorth>and look at the orders, then watch it silently fail to refit
11:42<@Terkhen>andythenorth: then the problem is that OpenTTD lets you choose any cargo, right?
11:42<andythenorth>and OpenTTD *can't* fix that
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11:42<andythenorth>even if newgrf authors use very rigid sets of cargos
11:42<andythenorth>OpenTTD can't account for conditional orders or 'load available'
11:42<andythenorth>or changes in the orders
11:42<andythenorth>or shared orders
11:43<andythenorth>so the only solution (imo) is that autorefit should be allowed for *all* refittable cargos
11:43<andythenorth>and that different vehicles should exist for different body types
11:43<andythenorth>as per train wagons
11:43<@Terkhen>what's the point of the autorefit callbacks then?
11:43<@Terkhen>this sounds like a problem in OpenTTD to me
11:44<andythenorth>to allow for complex cases like 'can refit water -> milk, but not petrol -> milk'
11:44<andythenorth>and primarily for setting refit costs afaik
11:44<andythenorth>the first case would have the same problem of invalid orders
11:44<@Terkhen>but as soon as you disallow some refits, those cases are inherently broken because OpenTTD allows autorefit orders to anything
11:44<andythenorth>disallowing a refit to a refittable cargo type is nonsense
11:45<andythenorth>it's a genuine misfeature :)
11:45<andythenorth>we found one!
11:45<FLHerne>andythenorth: There isn't a problem with the current autorefit system :P
11:45<@Terkhen>therefore there is either a problem in OpenTTD or a problem with the specs, because they let you disallow certain refits
11:45<andythenorth>FLHerne: yes there is, you are wrong
11:45<andythenorth>Terkhen: yes
11:45<andythenorth>Terkhen: previous discussion with pm on this:
11:45<@Terkhen>tl;dr? :P
11:46<andythenorth>there is a problem with the specs
11:46*FLHerne downloads nightly to test the svaegame with
11:46<@Terkhen>andythenorth: IMO it is a problem with the specs
11:46<andythenorth>I can literally make a grf that disallows refit on tuesdays
11:46<@Terkhen>since the problem is unsolvable in OpenTTD
11:46<@Terkhen>the specs should not let you create NewGRFs which cause this problem
11:47<andythenorth>even without disallowing, there is still a problem with shared orders
11:47<andythenorth>but that exists for refit in depot too I think
11:47<andythenorth>the specs also allow you to refit vehicles to a different length
11:47<FLHerne>andythenorth: In what cases do refits fail?
11:47<andythenorth>ship 1
11:47<FLHerne>One moment, testing
11:48<FLHerne>Ark, needs weird grfs too :-(
11:48<andythenorth>linked above
11:48<FLHerne>Just saw :-)
11:49<andythenorth>refitting to different lengths is totally verboten by openttd, but spec allows it :)
11:49<andythenorth>(at stations)
11:51<FLHerne>I'm not seeing the problem
11:51<FLHerne>It carries oil back and forth :P
11:51<andythenorth>ship 1, order 2, refit to bauxite
11:51<FLHerne>But it doesn't because there's no bauxite :P
11:52<andythenorth>no it doesn't because the spec is broken
11:52*Zuu thinks that it would make sense to have different engines for cases when autorefit is not allowed among all refit cargoes and then just allow autorefit between all corgoes that an engine can refit between?
11:52<andythenorth>FLHerne: your persistence may have a point
11:52<FLHerne>No, it doesn't because it doesn't need to, because there isn't any :P
11:52<FLHerne>I still don't see your point
11:52<andythenorth>we found a problem in an MP game recently, where autorefit is broken in a different way
11:53<FLHerne>As long as refitting is sane, you can't break it
11:53<andythenorth>autorefit won't trigger if there's no cargo waiting - is that your experience of it?
11:53<andythenorth>because I think that might be a significant current bug
11:54<FLHerne>The only places where the specific cargo refitted to matters, is if you can refit to a cargo from some cargos but not others
11:54<Zuu>If you make it so that the available auto refits of a _vehicle_ depend on its current cargo, then how do you expose that information at _engine_ level?
11:54<FLHerne>andythenorth: How is it a bug?
11:54<andythenorth>we had an MP game where it appeared autorefit wasn't working, but I'm not sure of the exact cause
11:54<Zuu>I mean, when a human/AI buys a vehicle, it looks at the engine list and make a decision based on that.
11:54<FLHerne>I don't want my boat to (perhaps expensively) refit to a cargo which isn't there :P
11:54<andythenorth>Zuu: you can't easily :P
11:55<andythenorth>FLHerne: tough, the orders say refit
11:55<andythenorth>it's broken
11:55<FLHerne>andythenorth: No, they say auto-refit
11:55<FLHerne>As in: automatically refit if needed :-)
11:56<andythenorth>wtf is that good though? :o
11:56<Zuu>So why not just allow auto-refit among all cargos that an engine can carry? And for cases when the graphics would change to much, offer two different engines?
11:56<andythenorth>Zuu: +lots
11:56<FLHerne>'Auto-refit to available cargo' would make no sense in your definition :p
11:56<andythenorth>that is the correct solution
11:56<andythenorth>I think it's fucked tbh
11:56<FLHerne>andythenorth: No, it's other stuff that's broken :P
11:57<andythenorth>which stuff?
11:57<FLHerne>Dunno :P
11:57<andythenorth>yeah no
11:57<andythenorth>use the money cheat
11:57<andythenorth>try building a bauxite mine in the catchment for Lindton Lakeside
11:57<FLHerne>What's the problem with that subtype idea?
11:57<FLHerne>I will
11:57<andythenorth>watch it entirely fail to refit
11:57<andythenorth>because it's not allowed to refit across the subtype
11:58<andythenorth>by my code
11:58<andythenorth>yet the order can still be set
11:58<andythenorth>and OpenTTD has *no* way to fix that
11:58<andythenorth>disallowing refit should be banned
11:59<andythenorth>bizarrely the industry is supplying cargo to the dock
11:59<andythenorth>which is utterly baffling
11:59<andythenorth>because no vehicle refitted to bauxite has visited it
11:59<andythenorth>so why supply bauxite?
12:00<FLHerne>andythenorth: Not seeing your problem :P
12:00<FLHerne>The latter one, yes
12:00<andythenorth>your ship refits to bauxite?
12:00<andythenorth>for order 2?
12:00<andythenorth>and that's not a problem because?
12:00<FLHerne>But the user should know that you can't tank bauxite :P
12:01<FLHerne>Users =/= idiots :P
12:01<andythenorth>bollocks :P
12:01<FLHerne>You can't put bauxite in a tank :P
12:01<FLHerne>You can't put oil in a cargo hold
12:01<Zuu>FLHerne: Tell that to the AI too
12:01<FLHerne>The user should be able to figure that out
12:02<andythenorth>they'll raise bugs
12:02<andythenorth>it's stupid UX
12:02<FLHerne>Zuu: Fair enough. Perhaps the AI should be able to see subtypes?
12:02<andythenorth>it's like building a bug right into the game deliberately, then having to handle it for life
12:02*FLHerne doesn't know much about what AIs know :P
12:03<andythenorth>the AI has no idea what subtypes mean
12:03<FLHerne>andythenorth: If they file bug reports, tell them to read the donotreadme :P
12:03<FLHerne>AI might be a pain
12:03<Zuu>Eg. an AI cannot use the longer tram variants of the same tram.
12:03<Zuu>Unless NewGRFs provide them as separate engines.
12:04<FLHerne>Can AIs be hardcoded for specific sets, if known?
12:04<FLHerne>And yes, that would be very ugly :P
12:04<Zuu>an AI cannot ask OpenTTD which NewGRFs that are loaded.
12:05<Zuu>Engine API:
12:05<Zuu>Vehicle API:
12:06<FLHerne>In that case, surely inability to deal with subtypes is an AI bug/nonfeature?
12:07<Zuu>are subtypes known at engine scope or only for vehicles?
12:08<andythenorth>forcing autorefit to be allowed is not simple :(
12:08<FLHerne>andythenorth: You could just have that massive lookup table :P
12:08<andythenorth>you don't get it :P
12:10<FLHerne>Probably not :P
12:10<Zuu>FLHerne: Indeed, it is a missing feature of the API that AIs can't deal with subtypes. However, I don't know the NewGRF specs good enough to know how subtypes are implemented. Eg. if there are enough clues there (preferable at engine level) to at beforehand know the effect of refiting to each subtype.
12:10*FLHerne is bad at getting it :-(
12:11<andythenorth>autorefit is currently broken in nightlies anyway I think
12:11<Zuu>Eg. if there is enough data provided by the NewGRFs that AIs can make a decision on which subtype to pick that makes sense.
12:11<andythenorth>it's just a number
12:11<andythenorth>subtype = 0, 1, 2 etc
12:11<andythenorth>outside of the grf, you have no idea what they're supposed to mean
12:12<Zuu>If that is the case, I'm not surprised why it has not been added to the API yet.
12:12<andythenorth>subtypes are another genuinely stupid feature
12:12<andythenorth>there is nothing good about them
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12:14<Zuu>I never understood the value of them from a human perspective and as an AI author they only impose restrictions on the available engine sorts.
12:15<andythenorth>they're a crappy way to provide alternative liveries
12:15<Zuu>The only case I can see that it makes any sense if you hit the upper limit of engine types.
12:15<andythenorth>and a crappy way to provide variable length RVs
12:15<andythenorth>they were intended to provide a specific purpose - creating more bug reports
12:16<andythenorth>by adding 'Goods (cars)' or 'Goods (electronics)'
12:16<andythenorth>in vehicles
12:16<andythenorth>and also at industries
12:16<andythenorth>which causes the following bug report: "industry produces Goods (cars), but my vehicles only carry Goods
12:16<andythenorth>...which sets have Goods (cars)?"
12:17<andythenorth>which is nonsense :P
12:17<Zuu>So remove it from NewGRF v9? :-p
12:17<andythenorth>too many people will wail :(
12:17<andythenorth>and nobody wants to solve the issues that newgrf authors abuse subtypes for
12:18*andythenorth is +1 to removing it
12:19<Zuu>or enforce that all subtypes have the same length + capacity+ weight+ hp + tractive effort + running cost etc.
12:19<V453000>dont tell me there will be another change in cargo classes and stuff :D
12:20<andythenorth>I won't tell you :P
12:21<Zuu>I'm sure most AI authors will be okay with not knowing which colour the different subtypes have. Although we have got feature requests from AI authors that want to set the face/gender of the president.
12:22<andythenorth>when subtypes are used for vehicle capacity, that's insane
12:22<Zuu>Or as, also that will give protests, make it mandatory to at engine level define all subtypes with their charesterstics. If thats done, that data could be exposed to AIs.
12:23<V453000>subtypes for capacity? :o who does that
12:23<V453000>or which set :)
12:23<Zuu>However, that will need AIs to not only pick which engine to buy, but at the same time also pick which subtype to refit too and pass around a table with this data instead of just an engine id.
12:24<Zuu>HEQS trams :-)
12:27<V453000>ah the lenght
12:27<andythenorth>property for consist length, with a new GUI :P
12:28<andythenorth>property for livery, same
12:28<Zuu>or add RV wagons :-)
12:28<Zuu>andythenorth: those two + removal of subtypes :-)
12:28<andythenorth>make changing length a depot-only thing
12:28<andythenorth>not a normal orders refit
12:29<Zuu>Yea, changing length in a station with a RV behind may cause problems :-p
12:29<andythenorth>it does
12:29<andythenorth>I think it might be guarded for better, I am seeing odd refits in my test of BANDIT :P
12:30<andythenorth>it used to throw a big red error :P
12:31<Zuu>is there a set of liveries per length or should the API enforce that all combinations of length and liveries should be provided?
12:34<andythenorth>dunno, depends on whims of newgrf author :P
12:36<andythenorth>changing vehicle lengths on a per-cargo basis is a bit insane :P
12:36<andythenorth>in fact lots of cb36 is insane :)
12:36<andythenorth>the sky is falling!
12:36<andythenorth>quick, rm the newgrf spec!
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13:00<LordAro>hai ladies
13:02<@Alberth>a lord should address ladies with more respect imho :)
13:02<@Alberth>hi :)
13:02<LordAro>^ that better? ;)
13:03<@Alberth>as lord, not really; as LordAro, much better :D
13:04<LordAro>i suspect you foreign lot may not be able to watch it, but:
13:05<@Alberth>looks like a nice program :)
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13:06<LordAro>indeed :) i've written about it on my personal statement (uni thing)
13:06<LordAro>also depends on how good your english is, i guess
13:07<LordAro>but in my experience, half you you can speak English better than most English people :L
13:08<LordAro>but then, there are also subtitles, so i guess it's ok :L
13:08*LordAro is rambling...
13:09<@Alberth>somewhat indeed :)
13:09*LordAro will stop
13:09<LordAro>... for now
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13:29*andythenorth ponders rebuild of BANDIT
13:30<FLHerne>andythenorth: New plan?
13:30<FLHerne>rebuild > rm, hopefully :-)
13:30<andythenorth>it's a lot of work to rebuild
13:31<andythenorth>it was created on the basis of 'all trucks carry all cargos'
13:33<Zuu>LordAro: That BBC program does not only depend on your English knowledge, but how good you are to fool BBC to serve you the content even if you are not in the UK.
13:34<andythenorth>rv-wagons? :(
13:35<FLHerne>Would be neat, especially for trams :-)
13:36<FLHerne>Put them on the list, after roadtypes and diagonal roads :P
13:36<andythenorth>I actually like the length refits
13:36<Zuu>LordAro: Oh there is also a BSL version of that documentary :-)
13:36*FLHerne doesn't, to be honest
13:36<andythenorth>better than clicking a lot to add wagons
13:37<FLHerne>Especially with FIRS, you end up with not far off 100 refit options, which is silly :-(
13:38<FLHerne>andythenorth: If they're like rail ones, you could make an articulated wagon with multiple subwagons :P
13:38<Zuu>If length and livery is split into separate options then the only remaning type would be cargo.
13:39<andythenorth>and random crap authors think up :P
13:39<Zuu>Having three independend selectors for cargo, length and livery would give an easier to handle GUI (and AI API)
13:40<FLHerne>It would need an [other] section, too :P
13:40<andythenorth>livery should be a var that can't be checked during cb36 :P
13:41<andythenorth>length would be better done with rv-wagons?
13:42*andythenorth thought
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13:44<andythenorth>this stuff with RVs changing consist props on cargo refit, that's like 'shunting' for trains
13:44<andythenorth>and not in a good way :P
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24555 /trunk/src/lang/ (8 files): (log message trimmed)
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: finnish - 2 changes by jpx_
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: german - 2 changes by planetmaker
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: italian - 14 changes by lorenzodv
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: korean - 3 changes by telk5093
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: romanian - 16 changes by tonny
13:48<andythenorth>how about an extra step after building a vehicle - set various arbitrary properties for the vehicle
13:48<andythenorth>livery, body type, length etc
13:48<LordAro>Zuu: oh indeed, but have no such need for proxy-ness nor sign language ;)
13:50<Zuu>My BSL knowledge is very limited.
13:51<Zuu>All I know is that you have wierd alphabet :-p
13:51*LordAro 's knowledge is non-existent, other than it involves hand-waving
13:52<andythenorth>arbitrary vehicle properties could be reset in depot
13:52<andythenorth>but they would invalidate all vehicle orders
13:53<Zuu>LordAro: BSL use a two hand alphabet where most other (sign) languages use a one hand alphabet.
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13:55<LordAro>because British are more awesome? :)
13:56<Zuu>Is that because you you also drive on the wrong side of the road? ;-)
13:57<LordAro>everyone else is wrong
13:57<@Alberth>they obviously always do something else than everybody else, but signing with 0 hands is so difficult :p
13:58<Zuu>Although here trains above Malmö go on the left but just north of Malmö there is a level separated intersection for changing to right hand side rail traffic through Malmö and down to Copenhagen. :-)
13:59<Zuu>But I guess, someone didn't like the suggestion to build a bridge to Denmark that includes a change between right and side and left hand side train traffic on the bridge. :-p
14:00<@Alberth>sounds a bit complicated, building a bridge on a bridge :)
14:00<Rubidium>they could've done that in the tunnel
14:02<Rubidium>or on the island
14:04<Rubidium>or just add an extra cross-over before Köbenhavns Lufthavn Kastrup (from Malmö)
14:04<Zuu>So now a generation of Malmö citicens will grow up and believe that trains drive on right in Sweden :-D
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14:21<andythenorth>build vehicle -> set props
14:21<andythenorth>they appear to varaction 2 like static props, there are no cbs to modify them
14:22<andythenorth>changing them would require something like rebuild
14:22<andythenorth>invalidate orders (because refittable cargos might have changed)
14:23<andythenorth>Zuu: what would be needed for this to work with AI? ^
14:24<andythenorth>if this could be run *before* the vehicle is constructed, then articulated vehicles could be built to different lengths
14:24<andythenorth>or with different IDs for trailing vehicles etc
14:25<andythenorth>cb16 could branch on the value of a static prop
14:26<andythenorth>the options for these props would be specified by newgrf in an action-14 like way
14:27<andythenorth>could be used for any amount of madness :)
14:27<andythenorth>power, gear ratio, length, trailers, livery, etc
14:27<bolli>Is there anybody in here who knows about Joan and packets? :p
14:28<bolli>I've tried to message him, but i keep getting auto-reply messages....
14:29<@Terkhen>I guess that you will have to be patient :)
14:30<@Alberth>send him a PM
14:35<NGC3982>Evening, democrats and demons.
14:38<andythenorth>nobody objects to my idea above
14:38<andythenorth>must be good, right?
14:39<NGC3982>Does the normal process of creating engine graphics in NewGRF allow special graphics to be used while the engine visits a station?
14:43<NGC3982>If one for instance wanted to lower power connections during stops
14:44<Rubidium>I guess you could do that with vehicle animation
14:44<Rubidium>though... it doesn't sound very realistic, unless you want to change direction... but you won't know it's going to do that
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14:46<Zuu>andythenorth: I'm clueless when it comes to varaction 2 etc. but as long as your suggestion involvs that details about the resulting vehicle is known from probing the engine, I'll be happy :-)
14:46<NGC3982>Well, I was thinking of that, and open doors during station visits.
14:47<NGC3982>JtptJust as a thought.
14:48<Zuu>andythenorth: And if your fellow NewGRF authors think AIs are boring, tell them that the same problem applies to anyone wanting to create an awsome GS that interacts with the available engines.
14:48<NGC3982>XT9 and 3g does not enjoy each others company.
14:51<andythenorth>Zuu: if I've understood my own idea correctly, the vehicle properties are more reliable once more built this way
14:51<andythenorth>but still the AI wouldn't know how to build them :P
14:55<andythenorth>Zuu: doesn't the existence of cb36 completely screw the AI? :o
14:55<Zuu>An AI need to know when it picks between different engines the capability of each engine so that it can make a clever selection there. If it want to make use of auto-refit it needs to know that the engine it picks can auto refit between the cargos it needs it to be able to auto-refit between. If this cannot been established, the second best is if it can probe a built vehicle for the data it needs. In this case it need to build an engine, experime
14:55<Zuu>nt with it and then it can store the gained knowledge and sell the vehicle.
14:56<Zuu>andythenorth: What is cb36?
14:56<andythenorth>change vehicle properties
14:56<andythenorth>according to arbitrary conditions
14:56<Yexo>it's one of the big problems for AIs
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15:00<Zuu>Even without trying to write code that can detect all insanety that NewGRF authors can do, it is quite complicated to write an AI that "only" take care of all odd behoviour in plain OpenTTD with all its settings.
15:01<Zuu>I just counted CluelessPlus and was surprised that it is only 6500 lines of code. But then SuperLib with about 8000 lines of code is hevily used by CluelessPlus.
15:01<andythenorth>openttd 2!
15:02<andythenorth>strip it back
15:02<andythenorth>focus on features that support GS style play :P
15:02<andythenorth>remove lots of advanced settings
15:03<andythenorth>figure out API between AI, GS, newgrf and core game
15:03<andythenorth>and deprecate stupid parts of newgrf with grf v9
15:05<andythenorth>never going to happen right?
15:05<andythenorth>"all features must be preserved, forever, no matter how squirrelly everything gets"
15:07<LordAro>hmm. can i has voice on ?
15:09<Yexo>LordAro: identify to nickserv and rejoin the channel
15:09<Yexo>you're already in the access list
15:10<LordAro>i already was...
15:10<LordAro>hmm. i blame this stupide online client
15:10<andythenorth>Zuu: I find it mentally taxing trying to design good gameplay in a spec created by train nerds to make bigger trainsets :)
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15:13<@Alberth>andythenorth: disable it when you cannot play with opengfx+ :)
15:13<andythenorth>but also....we have a situation where we expect every part of the addon frameworks to work nicely with everything else, and all the advanced settings :P
15:14<andythenorth>whilst not insisting on co-operation between authors
15:14<andythenorth>it's a great bazaar :)
15:14<andythenorth>less good as a cathedral ;)
15:15*andythenorth -> pub ;)
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15:27<Zuu>LordAro: Have you worked anything on your AI since 1.2?
15:27<LordAro>tiny bits, but nothing significant
15:27<Zuu>It seems that there is not much AI activity nowdays on the forums.
15:28<LordAro>true :(
15:28<Rubidium>then you haven't seen the spam yet ;)
15:29<Rubidium>spambots are sort of AI
15:29<LordAro>told you ^^
15:30<LordAro>i've spent far too long on the debug messaging system :L
15:31<Zuu>About the same ammount of commits since my last version. :-)
15:31<Zuu>LordAro: Why, when there is one in SuperLib :-p
15:31<Zuu>But maybe your is better? :-)
15:31<LordAro>SuperLib seems like cheating to me :P
15:32<LordAro>Zuu: feel free to take a look:
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15:33<Zuu>I'm sorry to tell, but I cannot offer the fullstop parameter that you have. :-)
15:34<LordAro>i'm not sure that works, tbh, never really tested it :L
15:34<LordAro>i'm sure i saw somewhere that optional paramters don't work, at least in OTTD
15:35<Zuu>But if your thing works, then use that rather than learning to use my log facility as your is more simple than mine.
15:35<Zuu>Optional params work in squirrel code. However, overloading is not working.
15:36<Zuu>Eg you can make a param (at the end) optional by setting a default value. But you cannot have two functions with the same name but different amount of parameters.
15:36<Zuu>The later is called overloading and is supported in eg. C++.
15:37*LordAro nods
15:38<__ln__>is there a newgrf for:
15:38<LordAro>Zuu: your thing looks... scary :L
15:40<@Alberth>__ln__: would it even be allowed to make it?
15:41<Zuu>LordAro: You only need to read down to line 124 at most.
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15:45<Zuu>It has the three colors .Info, .Warning .Error as in AILog. In addition to that it adds three detail levels of the log messages. By default it asks you to have a numeric setting log_level [1, 3] in info.nut, but it also allows you to override the function that decides which log messages to print if you want to add more levels.
15:45<Zuu>For example one could set replace the default function with one that rejects all log messages if you want to ensure that SuperLib never prints any log messages.
15:47<Zuu>but as said, if you have written your own log class that fit how you want it to be, use that rather than trying to learn my concept.
15:48<LordAro>+ "20:31:36 LordAro SuperLib seems like cheating to me " :P
15:48<LordAro>i do have a todo list:
15:53<Zuu>Once I've fixed all instability of aircraft connections in CluelessPlus, I'm thinking about adding feeders to Clueless plus to supply airports with low passenger supply.
15:54<Zuu>Then I can use some code I've written for the next PAXLink version that probably will never be released. (namely attach bus stops at any side of an airport)
15:55<LordAro>it's a shame paxlink never worked properly - i always liked the concept
15:56<Zuu>I think if I would have spent more time on it, it could have worked, but I ended up focusing on CluelessPlus as it was a path that gave progress quicker.
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15:57<Zuu>And working from the idea that you have a working strategy that from time to time need some support with feeders is probably much more sane.
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16:55<@Terkhen>good night
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19:32<welshdragon>How do I get the scenario editor to just build more houses when I hit "expand"
19:32<Supercheese>I dunno
19:34<welshdragon>it's weird, it will build new roads, but not any new houses
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19:50<planetmaker>welshdragon, do you use like TAI as NewGRF? The used house newgrf must support houses. Ultimately it decides whether houses can be built or not
19:55<welshdragon>yesm i use TaI
19:55<Supercheese>that'd explain it
20:00<welshdragon>hah, broke it
20:00<welshdragon>assertion failed
20:00<Supercheese>changed grfs in running game/scenario?
20:02<welshdragon>nope, scenario was paused :P
20:13<welshdragon>i know, I break every OpenTTD rule in the book :P
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20:23<welshdragon>aha, I just reproduced it
20:24<welshdragon>With Chill's PP: when you remove TaI and hit "expand" in a town, it breaks
20:24<Supercheese>the "remove TAI" part is what's doing the breaking
20:25<Supercheese>solution: don't remove TAI or start a new game/scenario
20:25<welshdragon>or don't expand towns
20:25<Supercheese>then it'll just break later
20:25<Beardie>hi anyone know how to update GRFs on BaNaNaS?
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20:26<Supercheese>If the new version of the GRF is available for your version, saying "select upgrades" should do ya
20:26<Beardie>wait i just figured out why
20:26<Beardie>we have two BaNaNaS accounts
20:26<Beardie>ours has no files why we do have a GRF in the BaNaNaS system
20:26<Supercheese>oohhh you mean manage updates
20:27<Supercheese>like for a grf you uploaded, update that
20:27<Beardie>yeah but its not showing we added a grf in the first place
20:27<Beardie>saying this we donl;t know who did lol
20:27<Supercheese>you need to use the original uploader's account
20:27<Beardie>but since i run the set it should be
20:27<Beardie>and its not lol
20:28<Beardie>just figured it out now
20:29<Beardie>one fo the other creators of the set must have put it on with their account
20:29<Beardie>anyway ty supercheese
20:29<Supercheese>you're welcome
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20:46<welshdragon>one thing i've noticed is that over time, TaI towns and cities shrink
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21:20<BadBrett>Supercheese: Do you know if i can make industries that both have land and water tiles? (for example a water mill)
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21:20<Supercheese>You can probably fake it pretty easily
21:20<Supercheese>but as for "official" land and water tiles I dunno
21:21<Supercheese>I haven't done too much with industries
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21:21<BadBrett>ok, thanks
21:22<BadBrett>i guess andy should know more about this. FIRS has very strange industry layouts
21:23<Supercheese>it seems pretty easy to check if a certain tile is water and the ones right next to it not water
21:23<Supercheese>so you could check for that and place the industry on those tiles
21:23<Supercheese>you can also check slopes
21:24<Supercheese>then you've got yer water mill location
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21:25<Supercheese>you can even check if the tile is a river, rather than sea
21:26<BadBrett>yeah... but for some reason i can't get the slopes to work... i'm gonna check out FIRS Fishing Harbor
21:26<BadBrett>but it shouldn't be to hard to accomplish
21:26<Supercheese>nearby_tile_slope Value Range: SLOPE_XXX
21:26<Supercheese>requires arguments, of course
21:28<BadBrett>hmm... i thought that was only for adjacent tiles?
21:28<Supercheese>Called before constructing the industry, so nothing exists on the map yet.
21:29<Supercheese>I figure a combination of that callback accessing those variables above
21:29<Supercheese>should get placement down to where you want it
21:29<BadBrett>yeah i already use tile_check... but i guess i screwed up :p
21:29<Supercheese>"From the tile variables, relative x/y/position, town zone are available, as well as the class, height, slope, terrain type and water status of nearby tiles"
21:29<Supercheese>should be all ya need
21:32<BadBrett>yeah... perhaps there's a conflict with the variable water_distance which i have set
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21:54<BadBrett>i laugh every time "snorre" joins the channel because it means "dick" in swedish... actually it's an old name as well (like Dick), but i've never actually met anyone with that name
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---Logclosed Mon Sep 24 00:00:12 2012