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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-09-26

---Logopened Wed Sep 26 00:00:14 2012
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04:40<planet>moin
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05:12<TaylorBaby>WWW.QUICKCOLLEGEHOOKUPS.COM is giving away 7 more FREE accounts!
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05:36<planetmaker>@op
05:37<planetmaker>@op
05:37-!-mode/#openttd [+o planetmaker] by DorpsGek
05:37<@planetmaker>@kban TaylorBaby
05:37<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: Error: TaylorBaby is not in #openttd.
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06:56-!-^Spike^ is "I Don't Care!" on #osm @#openttdcoop.wiki @#openttdcoop.stable #openttdcoop.devzone @#openttdcoop.dev @#openttdcoop #openttd @+#coopetition
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08:59<@Terkhen>hello
09:02-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd
09:06*andythenorth ponders trucks
09:07<lugo>hi andythenorth
09:07<andythenorth>bonsoir
09:10<@Terkhen>andythenorth: trucks are nice and fun
09:10<@Terkhen>or are you pondering somethong more complicated?
09:10<andythenorth>'less' complicated ideally
09:10<@Terkhen>something*
09:11<@Terkhen>in which way? :P
09:11<andythenorth>trying to design BANDIT
09:12<andythenorth>without too many trucks
09:12<andythenorth>got some ideas
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09:17<@planetmaker>less complicated sounds good. And hi andythenorth
09:17<andythenorth>hi hi
09:17<andythenorth>some things are obvious
09:17<andythenorth>there *must* be tank trucks
09:18<andythenorth>there *must* be a basic flatbed truck (which can refit to a wide range of cargos)
09:19<andythenorth>I think box trucks are needed (primarily for express cargos - food, and such)
09:19<andythenorth>I want to add a few specific types like cement trucks (building materials)
09:20<@Terkhen>box/bulk/tank should cover all if not most cargos
09:20<@Terkhen>you will get more if you consider refrigerated versions
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09:22<lugo>don't know about cement trucks; glass works produces building materials :/
09:24<lugo>novice players will argue it's un-r-word that it would be possible to send them there i think
09:25<lugo>i'd like to have them in game though :D
09:27<andythenorth>players schmayers
09:28<andythenorth>Terkhen: I think box trucks have sufficient refrigeration :P
09:28<dada__>I wonder if a good way to spread out trucks without using timetables would be to force them to remain a certain distance from one another
09:28<andythenorth>I'll probably change my mind on that though
09:30<@Terkhen>:)
09:30<andythenorth>would have been so much easier if players could build different trailers for trucks :P
09:35<@Terkhen>that would be the best solution, yes
09:37<andythenorth>maybe I should stop working on RV sets for now
09:37<andythenorth>they're not satisfactory :P
09:40<__ln__>"In 1996 ITU issued recommendation H.323 entitled "Visual Telephone Systems and Equipment for Local Area Networks Which Provide a Non-Guaranteed Quality of Service." Only the telephone industry would think of such a name." -- what a great tanenbaumian remark by Tanenbaum
09:41<dada__>I'm trying to run a dedicated server on freebsd, the bin is /usr/local/bin/openttd, the config is specified via command line as /home/msikma/OpenTTD/openttd.cfg, anyone know where it will look for newgrfs? I've specified two newgrfs to be loaded but it claims it can't find them (they're in /home/msikma/OpenTTD/content_download/newgrf)
09:42<@planetmaker>try ~/.openttd/newgrf
09:42<@planetmaker>don't put manually stuff into any folder called *content_download*
09:42<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: you should see some german law names :p
09:43<dada__>cool I'll try that. (any way I can specify a different dir via command line?)
09:43<@planetmaker>no
09:43<dada__>this dir will do though I'll just move my scripts there
09:43<dada__>did not know about t
09:43<@planetmaker>readme anyone? :-)
09:43<@planetmaker>Line 188ff
09:43<dada__>you are correct, sorry :(
09:44<@planetmaker>(sorry, I really know the line number by heart meanwhile)
09:45<@planetmaker>if you plan to run several servers it's a good idea to make a separate dir for each binary. put the corresponding cfg next to it. And symlink the ~/.openttd/XXX folders to the respecitive folders relative to the binary
09:48<@planetmaker>running servers usually also works nicer, if you do not install OpenTTD, but just keep the binary in a (local) folder. It's easier to update and allows you to run different binaries in parallel
09:49<andythenorth>really, how hard could rv-wagons be?
09:50<andythenorth>or I could make a railtype for road vehicles
09:50<dada__>planetmaker: ah, that's not a bad idea indeed
09:51<andythenorth>planetmaker: Terkhen want to help me do RVs as a railtype?
09:51<andythenorth>it will solve most of the issues with RVs
09:52<@planetmaker>shouldn't we rather invent road types and user-defined composition of RVs?
09:53<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: seriously? why don't you just make a train grf. why must they look like RVs?
09:53<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: good point :o
09:54<andythenorth>I guess it's only graphics
09:54*andythenorth wonders what the point of RVs is at all?
09:55<andythenorth>other than realism
09:58<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: they can move in city centers, and they have really short distance between vehicles
09:59<andythenorth>but a train will carry more, and make a bigger, quivker return on investment
09:59<andythenorth>maybe we just need underground stations
09:59<andythenorth>for cities
10:00<@peter1138>code it
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10:00<andythenorth>got enough spare bits?
10:01<@peter1138>yes, mine are not currently in use
10:02<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i have a game where trams can easily handle the passenger load, while trains are horribly and utterly congested
10:03<dada__>hm, newgrfs are in the ~/.openttd/newgrf/ dir but they still can't be found/loaded. maybe I did not make the savegame with those newgrfs loaded.
10:03<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: multi-level train-stations needed?
10:03<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: sure, one single train can load more than one tram, but with limited space there's only so much you can optimise with distance between two trains following each other
10:05<@planetmaker>dada__, you need the exact same version of the newgrfs (matching md5sum)
10:05<@planetmaker>dada__, try to start the server with ./openttd -D -d grf=1 -g savegame.sav
10:06<dada__>they should be the precise same, I lifted them out of my local openttd dir where I downloaded them via ingame content browser.
10:07<dada__>http://pastie.org/private/lliizzmdyve5mvhbrdkqq
10:08<@planetmaker>ERROR: Game Load Failed?NewGRF mismatch
10:08<@planetmaker>ERROR: Missing GRF file(s) have been disabled
10:09<dada__>I think I managed to get it to work now after moving the dirs to the data dir
10:09<dada__>out of the newgrf dir
10:09<@planetmaker>data dir... what openttd version do you run?
10:09<dada__>1.1.3
10:09<@planetmaker>o_O
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10:09<@planetmaker>dada__, you'll not enjoy running that version as server...
10:09<dada__>(because that's the one in the freebsd ports)
10:09<dada__>hm!
10:10<@planetmaker>and yes, that version uses data instead of newgrf (still)
10:10<dada__>aha
10:10<dada__>I should have mentioned that sooner, haha
10:10<@Terkhen>andythenorth: I still find the idea of RV wagons interesting, but it is too big for my currently small coding times/inclination
10:10<@planetmaker>people will not have that version any longer. And they need that very exact version to join
10:10<dada__>well, time to see to getting a newer version
10:10<@planetmaker>you're then better advised to compile your openttd yourself, I think
10:10<dada__>yeah, I'm actually only making this server for a couple of friends, but it would be better for them if I got the latest version too
10:11<@Terkhen>therefore, I prefer to code simpler stuff :P
10:11<@planetmaker>I know of no place where there's pre-compiled openttd for freebsd
10:11<@planetmaker>other than their package manger (which obviously has an outdated one)
10:12<dada__>package managers tend to be like that, oh well
10:12<@planetmaker>yes
10:12<@planetmaker>you'll need to get an svn checkout to compile a server yourself
10:13<@planetmaker>(yes, svn. tar ball doesn't suffice)
10:13<@planetmaker>nor our git or hg mirrors
10:13<dada__>somehow my config file ended up being reduced to standard settings :P
10:14<@planetmaker>and make sure to not use gcc 4.5... it's somewhat buggy
10:14<dada__>thanks for the information, I'll give it a spin in a minute
10:15<@planetmaker>dada__, if you load a savegame, the config file nearly doesn't matter (except the network section)
10:16<@planetmaker>and unless you have a setup with several IP addresses, it often needs no config either. You'll only need to configure ports, if you want to run non-standard ports or several servers at once
10:16<andythenorth>maybe the problem is autorefit
10:18<dada__>that's actually useful, that way I can set up the options in the savegame
10:18<@Terkhen>andythenorth: I was fearing that you would mention that
10:19<dada__>I hope 40 is not too high a station spread :D
10:20<@planetmaker>don't worry about that... it just depends on how you like to play
10:20<@planetmaker>I often use the max (64)
10:21<dada__>it still says "high values slow the game", but I've loaded coop games set to 64 that seemed to work OK
10:22<@planetmaker>well, both is true :-)
10:22<dada__>I guess for recent PCs it's not such a big issue anymore
10:23<@planetmaker>it slows down path finding as spread^2 tiles need to be searched for acceptable destination tiles
10:23<dada__>so that's 4096 tiles for spread=64
10:24<dada__>144 for 12
10:24<@planetmaker>yes
10:24<dada__>tha'ts a big difference
10:24<@planetmaker>but - from my POV - it's more important to make sure you don't have a too big total map size. As that quickly leads to games becoming unplayable without feeling finished
10:25<@planetmaker>thus we allow on our coop servers only maps which are smaller than ~ 500.000 tiles
10:25<@planetmaker>they allow still enough playing fun for a week or so before everything is built to players satisfaction
10:26<dada__>hmm let's see, I'm running a 256x1024 map, so that ought to be fine
10:26<dada__>we probably won't build as fast as the coop servers
10:27<@planetmaker>it always depends on the amount of players :-)
10:27<dada__>probably no more than 6 or so
10:27<@planetmaker>that's already a quite decent amount, if they're online concurrently
10:31<@planetmaker>compare that with the current status of the (public) servers: http://www.openttd.org/en/servers
10:31<dada__>haha ah yeah I see
10:33<@planetmaker>one person playing 1.1.3 ;-)
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10:57<drac_boy>hi
10:57<Markk>oi
10:58<drac_boy>so mm just wondering about it if anyone have any thoughts to add...
10:59<drac_boy>4-coupled standard verus 2+2 coupled mallet in term of tractive?
10:59<drac_boy>I'm thinking obviously the latter would have more (unless it was underweighted) due to re having four pistons ... but not sure if there could be more
11:00<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: usually the mallet has less, because the power distribution over both sections is not optimal
11:01<drac_boy>hmm thanks
11:02<Eddi|zuHause>it may have more power (due to more effectively using the heat) but less tractive effort
11:03<drac_boy>looking at it now I guess another reason they could want to get a mallet is if curves were restrictive to anything with a longer wheelbase and yt they wanted to replace their old tank locomotives
11:04<drac_boy>although I'm surprised that one the 760mm railroad in germany had like a 2-10-0T or so in their rooster. must had needed generious curves
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11:04<drac_boy>either way thanks Eddi|zuHause and yeah you're right about more power
11:05<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: 760mm is in austria/jugoslavia
11:05<drac_boy>that was one of the reason for PRR's good but shortlived modern steam locomotives which were 3+2 coupled rather than 5 coupled
11:05<Eddi|zuHause>germany has 750mm and 1000mm mostly
11:05<drac_boy>oh guess I was thinking of 750 then
11:06<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: also, narrow gauge engines often have very small wheels, so 5-coupled is not that much of a problem
11:06<drac_boy>hmm yeah this tank locomotive in question's looked quite small
11:07<Eddi|zuHause>also, 5-coupled is rather late in the development of steam engines
11:07<andythenorth>this baby likes crisps and black coffe
11:07<andythenorth>he is 9mo
11:08<drac_boy>here it is http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3327/5821620603_14d5d5da99_z.jpg and its actually a 2-10-2T but still point stands .. its long
11:08<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause well during the wartime german had some heavy express steam locomotives that were 5-coupled. usa had a few but most of them were for flatlands or close due to curvation problems naturally
11:08<drac_boy>don't ask me how UP managed to run 6-coupled's when they did at the time :p
11:09<@Terkhen>andythenorth: giving coffee to a baby sounds like a bad idea
11:09<drac_boy>Terkhen heh I so agree
11:09<andythenorth>it is
11:11<__ln__>NGC3982: https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/542190_445065758870755_769651507_n.jpg
11:11<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: the above picture is 1000mm though
11:12<drac_boy>heh lri
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11:13<drac_boy>mm
11:14<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause either way heres something for you if you'll http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/tr_up9029.jpg and notice how its pretty much on the flatland where its chassis length isn't much issue after all
11:14<drac_boy>crazy thing tho heh
11:15<Pinkbeast>The 9Fs and WD 2-10-0s could go most places here...
11:16<andythenorth>http://www.steamlocomotive.com/4-12-2/
11:16<drac_boy>pinkbeast did you count the drive axles on that picture?
11:16<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: btw. the previous engine with legs instead of wheels: http://www.mz-web.de/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=ksta/page&atype=Page&aid=1012569559775&openMenu=1012569559775 :)
11:17<Eddi|zuHause>err, wrong link
11:18<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.bahnbilder.de/bild/Deutschland~Schmalspurbahnen~Harzer+Schmalspurbahnen/611609/versuche-fehlgeschlagen-die-versuche-bei-hsb-lok.html
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11:18<drac_boy>heh nice picture
11:23<andythenorth>2-14-4 http://www.aqpl43.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/russ/russrefr.htm
11:24<drac_boy>andythenorth aka the thing that split the yard switches .. and never ever really ran? :)
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11:48<drac_boy>anyway going for lunch so
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11:50<NGC3982>__ln__: :D
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12:03<andythenorth>livestock trucks?
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12:06<andythenorth>quak quak quak
12:06<frosch123>moin :)
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12:24<Elukka>http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/mk2pod.jpg?t=1348676586
12:24<Elukka>fly, brave kerbals
12:24<Elukka>cockpits are nifty
12:24<bolli>that KSP? :p
12:24<NGC3982>What'zat.
12:25<Elukka>yeah
12:25<Elukka>kerbal space program
12:26<Elukka>it's actually almost easier to do powered landings from the cockpit, as long as you make sure the terrain is good beforehand
12:26<Elukka>you panic less when you can't see outside :P
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12:28<Elukka>KSP is a fairly realistic space game
12:28<NGC3982>Hehe, true.
12:28<Elukka>it's not simulator-detailed but all the basics of rocketry and orbital mechanics are there and the way you, say, fly to the moon in KSP is indeed how you fly to the moon in real life
12:29<NGC3982>Same amount of timespans, etc?
12:30<Elukka>well, the planets are smaller but that's not particularly unrealistic :P
12:30<NGC3982>;)
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12:31<Elukka>no, what i mean is you don't point your spacecraft at the moon and burn
12:31<andythenorth>space shuttle interiors http://www.launchphotography.com/Endeavour_Flight_Deck.html
12:31<Elukka>you do a translunar injection burn at the right time (essentially getting you to an elliptical orbit around the planet that gets you close to the moon) and then a braking burn at closest approach to the moon to avoid being ejected into a solar orbit
12:32<Elukka>http://s3.amazonaws.com/data.tumblr.com/tumblr_l5jy0nYmjD1qzyhb5o1_1280.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAI6WLSGT7Y3ET7ADQ&Expires=1348763562&Signature=YidXh9jD1%2B7ZIsTdb4u0w%2Bhm2oo%3D
12:33<Elukka>soyuz is a bit simpler, andy :P
12:33<andythenorth>for any given cargo, at any given time, only two truck choices are needed?
12:33<andythenorth>large / small?
12:35<andythenorth>this coffee was best before May 2006
12:37<@planetmaker>andythenorth, absolutely. More choice is not needed
12:38<@planetmaker>I hope your coffee didn't become intelligent since 2006 :-P
12:38<andythenorth>small = can use drive in stops
12:38<andythenorth>large = articulated, n trailers (according to some limit, blah)
12:38<@planetmaker>kinda, yes
12:38<@planetmaker>it's about also what egrvts uses, afaik
12:39<@planetmaker>but I don't recall the amount of vehicles there for each cargo
12:39<@planetmaker>it feels more, but... dunno
12:45<andythenorth>it feels too much
12:45<andythenorth>yet if you have a train set like NARS 2 there are many more vehicles in the buy menu
12:47<andythenorth>actually not :0
12:47<andythenorth>egrvts buy menu > nars 2 menu
12:47<andythenorth>:o
12:48<andythenorth>if I had vehicle expiry on it might be different
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13:38<Wolf01>evenink
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14:04<LordAro>evenings all
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14:31<Zuu>Hello all
14:31<LordAro>hai here also :)
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16:18<Zuu>Hmm, so AIController::Break have only been working on dedicated servers for 5 days, and noone have complained. :-)
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16:19<Zuu>And I have even announced the feature on the forums. :-)
16:20<frosch123>maybe they are used to scripts deadlocking on dedicated servers :p
16:20<Zuu>:-p
16:21<@Alberth>or they watched the screen, but nothing happened :)
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16:40<dada__>hmmm
16:41<dada__>trying to compile openttd. liblzma requires that I give the configure script the path to liblzma.a, right?
16:41<dada__>only it doesn't seem to want to eat the liblzma.a I'm pointing it to
16:42<frosch123>can you install pkg-config ?
16:43<dada__>pkg-config is available (on freebsd, but new to the system)
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16:47<@Alberth>I'd expect a .so file
16:47<frosch123>anyway, i never understood why the configure help stuff talks about "=libsomething.a"
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16:47<frosch123>it uses the parameter as command
16:47<frosch123>so, it must be some script
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16:47<frosch123>which can handle the same parameters as pkg-config
16:48<dada__>doesn't seem to want to accept my /usr/lib/liblzma.so either
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16:48<frosch123>--with-lzma needs a script as parameter
16:48<@Alberth>just /usr/lib ?
16:48<frosch123>which returns stuff according to its parameters
16:48<dada__>ah
16:49<frosch123>it should accept "--cflags", "--libs" and "--modversion"
16:52<dada__>would you happen to know how it tries to detect liblzma? since it's installed, it seems weird I have to specify the dir at all
16:52<frosch123>it runs the command passed via "--with-lzma" :p
16:52<frosch123>or "pkg-config liblzma"
16:53<dada__>aha
16:53<dada__>pkg-config liblzma returns nothing apparently
16:53<frosch123> pkg-config liblzma --modversion
16:53<frosch123> pkg-config liblzma --libs
16:53<frosch123>those should return stuff
16:53<dada__>aha, it couldn't find anything
16:53<dada__>it wants liblzma.pc
16:54<@Alberth>dada__: configure is just a script, you can read it in a text editor
16:54<dada__>it seems I do have one. although not as a result of my compiling and installing liblzma. but I have one in a src subdir of an older openttd version (1.1.3)
16:55<dada__>strangely enough, my $PKG_CONFIG_PATH seems empty
16:57<@Alberth>my pkg-config(1) speaks of a default path that is always searched
16:58<@Alberth>so perhaps your env var is only for adding/overriding, in which case being empty seems a sane value
16:59<frosch123>dada__: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1742/
16:59<dada__>seems configure is able to find my liblzma now :)
16:59<frosch123>use that script, fill in the needed information
16:59<frosch123>and pass that via --with-lzma
16:59<frosch123>you can do the same with other libs
17:00<dada__>frosch123: thanks! going to try seeing if what I have now works, otherwise I'll try this.
17:05<dada__>ah, bsd makes and gnu makes are incompatible
17:05<dada__>so use gmake
17:06<dada__>seems it's compiling happily now
17:06<Kjetil>use cmake :P
17:06<dada__>too late ;)
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17:13*Jake needs to research First Nations languages as part of the backstory for his OpenTTD scenario.
17:14<Jake>It's official. I have too much free time.
17:14<frosch123>antique railroad? :p
17:14<@Terkhen>send your spare time to me :P
17:15<@Terkhen>good night
17:15<Jake>Nope. A throwaway gag about a name given to a local terrain feature.
17:16<MNIM>do tell.
17:17<frosch123>wait for the scenario :p
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17:20<Jake>It's okay, it's not really a spoiler. The first Western settlers tried to find out the local name for a mountain by pointing at it and then looking expectant at a local. They duly recorded his reply phonetically, and it remained on the maps for two hundred years before anyone bothered to notice it meant, "It's a mountain, you idiot."
17:21<Jake>Yes, it's a lame gag. But it made me smile.
17:24<Jake>Actually, scrub that. I've got a better idea.
17:25<frosch123>"it's a forest, you idiot"?
17:26<Jake>That'd work too, I think it'd work better if the guide actually told them translations of the lyrics to a very rude song instead of the actual native names of the various terrain features.
17:29<frosch123>night
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17:33<Wolf01>'night all
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17:41<NGC3982>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-u27WnFpVU&feature=related
17:41<NGC3982>Of you can understand this..
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17:51<Zuu>did you see the Danish bus comersial? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75F3CSZcCFs
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20:24<dada__>hello. I just compiled openttd on freebsd. but this system has a package manager, that contains an old version. so when I try to start my new binary (1.2.2) it complains taht the language files are out of date. does anybody know how I can force it to load the language files from my newly compiled version that are in another directory?
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20:39<dada__>fixed it by simply copying lang dir to the current dir
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20:45<dada__>ascii mode is highly entertaining http://wedemandhtml.com/tmp/openttd-ascii.png
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21:06<dada__>hm
21:06<dada__>I have the openttd original data files in both the ./data dir and the ./baseset dir, but when I try to start a dedicated server it still says it can't find a gfx set. anyone know what I'm doing wrong?
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21:07<dada__>seems a bit weird I need one since it's a dedicated server, too
21:08<BtbN>why not just use opengfx?
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21:09<dada__>BtbN: I could use that, sure. I actually just downloaded it. but still, weird that it cannot find the original gfx even though I think the files are in the right place.
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21:14<dada__>seems it works now that I added opensfx and opengfx
21:14<dada__>now there's another problem
21:14<dada__>it somehow refuses to load my savegame, says "File not readable"
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21:16<dada__>hmmm
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21:20<dada__>ah, version mismatch (1.2.2 vs 1.2.2-rc1)
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---Logclosed Thu Sep 27 00:00:16 2012